How Curb Succeeded Where Seinfeld Failed
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- Опубліковано 19 січ 2025
- Without a doubt, Seinfeld is one of, if not the most successful sitcom ever produced for television. Though decades later, the Seinfeld finale is a contentious issue among fans. Now, as Curb your Enthusiasm has come to an end fans have noticed that Larry David seemed to have "fixed" his mistakes dating back to the Seinfeld finale. Basically ending Curb Your Enthusiasm in a similar, but more compelling way. Even making note of it directly to Jerry Seinfeld in the shows final moments. Which is why it can been seen that Curb Your Enthusiasm succeeded where Seinfeld came up short.
#seinfeld #jerryseinfeld #larrydavid #curbyourenthusiasm #sitcom
I think it perfectly fit with the show. The characters were failures. They didn't evolve, have arcs, or learn anything. That was the point of the show. That is why the last conversation in prison was their first in the pilot. In that context, the ending is a perfect fit.
I 110% disagree I hated the final episode. I get your point about the Seinfeld character's basically being horrible people which was where the comedy came from. However there are soo many different ways David and Jerry could have ended the show's conclusion with a perfect fit. Instead rather than comedic being arrested and going to jail over the Good Samaritan law wasn't funny it was STUPID. Bringing back all the guest stars over the years might have been fun on the set but it took away from the main characters screen time enacting with each other. They could have had an amusing scenario where the Fake Seinfeld TV Show was picked up leading to all of them moving on but instead finding all 4 ostracized by society when separated for being the horrible people they were...
It was perfect!
@@nosuchanimal It wasn't perfect it was S-T-U-P-I-D!!! It was completely freaking STUPID. It was not funny... It was stupid. Hey here is a lil info for you have you ever been in jail? I have and there is no scenario where women and men are in jail together. There is no scenario where you get found guilty and go to jail immediately. There is no scenario where you get put in jail in your own clothes.
It wasn't the finale that the audience wanted, but the one they deserved.
@@TJIRISH44 I don't know. What was the biggest difference between Seinfeld and Curb? That it's more obvious that Larry is a horrible person, in the show. The Seinfeld crew were too lovable, people wanted a happy ending, so the joke of them getting what they deserve didn't fly.
Has Larry always been 76years old??
literally yes
Feels like it no doubt lol
Since like 92 when Seinfeld started heating up
As god made him!
it's a thing that happends to guys that go bald before they 30, they look 50+ most of their lives lol
The ending of seinfeld has certainly grown on me. It really does work. They finally had a big break and couldnt close it out due to there own issues. No one learned anything in the end
I don't think the Seinfeld characters would have ever been so mean as to laugh at a mugging though.
I don't think it works at all. The Seinfeld characters are lovable scallywags and scofflaws who enable the audience to indulge in their antisocial tendencies vicariously. We all sometimes wish that we could be as selfish as Jerry, as brutally honest as Kramer, as slutty as Elaine or as duplicitous as George. But we can't, because WE'RE LIVING IN A SOCIETY HERE! When you punish the characters for their minor sins, you punish the audience too, because we were all their accomplices.
The idea of the ending (the main cast rotting in jail) is funny and fitting but the actual episode itself isn’t all that compelling to watch. Having almost all of the supporting characters reappear at the trial and repeat what happened to them just comes across as a clip show even though it isn’t one.
@@jakeviolet2195The structure of each episode was literally built around punishing them. They never win by design.
@@jackxiao9702George more or less murdered his wife through neglect, so I wouldn’t say it’s that much of a stretch.
I like that in Seinfeld the main cast was sent to trial for not being good Samaritans while on the flip side Larry was sent to trial for being a Good Samaritan. Haha
shame that larry had to lie and make it about a law that doesn't exist though, thus creating political division base on something that doesn't actually exist.
@@ge2719 Today I learned that "Georgia Code Title 21. Elections § 21-2-414" doesn't exist.
@@ge2719 What... political division? Its his fictional world. Who are you to say that its a law that does not exist?
@LuminaryGames you been living under a rock? This is a law that doesn't exist, but that celebrities and Democrats were lying about none stop at the time this episode was made.
The law actually says you're not allowed to canvas for (ie buy) someones vote by bribing them with things like drink, food, gifts, including water.
You can give anyone standing in line to vote free water all you want. Thats never been a crime. But the media, celebrities etc all lied and spread misinformation, including this episode. Trying to claim it was a crime to give people water.
So sorry but no, this isn't a fictional world, this was Larry David attempting to use a supposedly real world thing in his show.
The season also included Seth Rogen in an episode. Is Seth Rogen a fictional character who doesn't exist? Thats a very weird argument for you to try to make.
@@ge2719 Was going to ask which finale you're referring to but after more research, it doesn't matter as both laws do exist. The Seinfeld finale references Massachusetts' "Duty to Rescue" law which does in fact exist. It requires bystanders to make an effort to alert law enforcement if they witness a crime if they can safely do so (though that one just gives a fine, not jail time). It's rarely enforced but still a law nonetheless.
And the Georgia Law referenced in the Curb finale also exists. I previously made a comment citing the specific law but it was removed for some reason.
Never got the hate for this ending I loced it. It was the consequences of their actions finally coming back to get them. I loved the Seinfeld crew but they were undeniably bad people and it was funny seeing them finally getting punished
The last episode of "Seinfeld" was a damn clip show. That's why it was universally panned. Even Larry and Jerry admit their disappointment, hence the "Seinfeld" reunion on "Curb."
@@dan_hitchman007 personally it was one last harrah seeing all these characters one more time. When you have a long running show I'm ok with the finale being a " victory lap " If it's a serialized show with a big plot hell no. But for a comedy I'll take it.
You loved it?
@@HOTD108_ yeah I was surprised to find that people didn't like it.
yeah always weird to me how big a deal ppl made about the show as if it had a chronological arc that really needed a “proper” ending. in the end it was just going to be one or two episodes, so who cares. anything “happy” or sappy would have not fit the tone of the show and ruined syndication
You didn't mention that the ambulance arriving for Frank Sinatra's fatal heart attack got to the hospital in record time because all the cars were at home watching the finale
That sounds like a story Kramer would tell about his friend Bob Sacamano 😂
Curb's success shows that Seinfeld never would have been what it was without Larry. I was sad when Seinfeld ended but we got nearly 20 more years of Curb. Pretty, pretty good. If you ask me.
I agree. To me Jerry played somewhat of a "Stan" from South Park type of character. Kind of a bland type that provides the glue to hold together the interesting characters.
Yeah but Curb went on too long too really.
@@Jeremy-f3sthe quality definitely dipped. I think if s 8 was the last, the show would’ve gone out on a high and I would’ve been happy with him telling off the pig parker in French as the final scene.
@robJDM thanks, I felt like I was the only one who thought this series should've ended before it has. I think it should've ended when Larry went to heaven and got sent back cos he caused too much trouble with god. That to me was the perfect ending and I did actually think that's where he was ending the show. It summed up how even in the after life Larry would've been too annoying for people to tolerate. And no series ending could top that. Once Larry continued on it started repeating itself really. I won't say it wasn't funny anymore but he'd done all there was to do. I'd say once Vince Vaughn came along it was done really. He is never funny. And I'm sorry to say but the character of Leon overstayed his welcome. He was good for a few series but if Larry is so irked by people he would've got rid of Leon eventually not just keep on letting him leech off him.
Seinfeld is a series that will continue relevant for many many years. Curb is just a forgetful series... maybe fun but not memorable nor relevant.
I think if Jerry and Elaine had gotten together in the end, it would have been perfect. But George's line captured that sentiment: "I always hoped you two would end up together" and Elaine's reply was the writers' response: "that's because you're an id ot".
She could do a lot better than him….
@@lsh3rd and he COULD do better than her. The point is they were best friends, cared about each other, and had a lot of chemistry.
@@lsh3rd and he COULD do better than her. The point is the payoff for the audience would be perfect, but it wasn't realistic (based on the characters).
@@lsh3rdand he COULD do better than her. The point is the payoff for the audience would be perfect, but it wasn't realistic (based on the characters).
and he COULD do better than her. The point is the payoff for the audience would be perfect, but it wasn't realistic (based on the characters).
The Seinfeld final was pretty smart if you ask me. Ending where it began and highlighting everything in the middle.
Bingo. Agreed. Seinfeld was ended pretty well actually
In 1998, I was in the Air Force and had to do a six month rotation to an air base in the middle of Saudi Arabia, living in tents and deprived of any normal comforts. Nobody enjoyed these tours, but the thing that made me sad was that the finale of Seinfeld was going to air right in the middle of that time, and we were truly remote, no TV or good internet.
Luckily, the base commander was a fan of the show and put the call out to the state-side bases to record the show and to get it to the base on resupply flights that came in often. They set up a tent with a TV and VCR and played that episode continuously for days.
I can't recall being disappointed in the show, but I was happy to have got to see it. Even today, when it airs in reruns, I find myself back in that tent in the stifling heat and sand of the Saudi desert.
Shoutout to the mugging victim in Seinfeld, a VERY funny man named John Pinette.
Had me in tears when I saw him perform. Absurdly funny.
Hilarious guy. R.I.P.
WHAT DO I NEED AN EXTENDED WARRANTY FOR?! 🤣
Loved him.
@@tapoemt3995 In case your toaster breaks.
A bit of history that's been totally lost: before the finale aired, there was an hour long history show that recapped many of the most iconic moments. So when the finale was a clips episode, we had just seen most of those clips in the previous hour so we were underwhelmed.
Larry's and Jerry's interactions always seemed so naturally funny. I bet they make each other laugh doing anything
One of the best comedy shows ever made. Along with arrested development and it's always sunny
Seinfeld's finale was great.
Some fans don’t understand or can’t accept that the main character of Seinfeld were indeed awful people. Making Jerry get together with Elaine made no sense. The finale made complete sense according to all we saw.
I just hate all these shows are spread across 5 different streaming subscriptions.
totally
Remember when we were excited for streaming because it meant we could finally rid our lives of cable tv?
And then they immediately decided to morph into cable tv.
@@hwogrillo everytime i try to see a new show, i learn about a new streaming service…
Nope. The Seinfeld ending was perfect. Loved it. Throughout the years we viewers indulged in the portrayal of our lower-level base impulses. Sigmund Freud's "id." It was good and right to make that final statement: "we had our fun, but in the real world it is *not* ok to live like that. It's harmful to others, so we need to think of what is good for others and society as a whole too." Freud's "superego."
The Curb Seinfeld Reunion was the finale we should have gotten.
But we did get it, in more ways than one.
The shirt button placement and the pants tent were both callbacks to their pilots!
I've only heard one person talk about curb over the years but Seinfeld is an inescapable part of the cultural zeitgeist. Thinking of it as a failure in any way is strange to me. But this is a great video
I mean very few masterpices aare flawless and countless great works are only success in a sanes outside massive apleal... Like copywrite exsuits because it's unfortunately for creatives magnun opis to only be discovered as a cult classivc years after their death... So theuir families needed a way to benefit form their late loved ones works. Like this is normal for succcessfull books even the bible the best seeling peice of media of all time only came to be a few hundred years after the evnmts of the bew teastment and was assembled by the new chaloic church as it had a massive diverse history and needed a way to keep it in a way to be mass productble eveb if book massproduction was done by hand coping one book into anther... Hince why bibles were limited then and not now... Just the Church lacked the means of production... anyway so yeah the best selling media of all time was made with copurigbt easly around 200 yerars old give off take a century and some dacdes... Amd this pattern is also showcased in Piokemon thrd games like Pokemon emrald to Pokemon ruby/shaphire... emerald despite being the definitive bets version of the older two gfames being a complete defntive collection... It sold terbly like one of the worse selling piokemon games of all time much less Nintedno mainstay seruies.... Also after mustions and bands move beyond their radio era people think they deaded or something just like youtrubers... Despite they making batter songs in modern genres that they old audnce my love too... So yeah TLDR the most successful thing isn';t always the better one...
Seinfeld went out at the top of its popularity. See Larry King interview. Look at the numbers. I don’t see it as a failure at all. I love Curb, and I love Larry David, but I do feel like the last few seasons of Curb are as strong as the early or even mid seasons. Curb went out weaker than it came in. Also, Larry and the cast aging as much as they did didn’t help the show, sometimes I think it even made it a little creepy. Again, still a great show, but will always live in Seinfeld’s shadow.
@@GreenBlueWalkthrough
That was unreadable
@@Martcapt curb apeal even?
More then one way to fail
Nothing wrong with the Seinfeld ending in my opinion.
The brilliance of Seinfeld was that even though the characters were small and petty people, we still rooted for them. Actually, we not only rooted for them, we saw ourselves in them. Compare them to the characters on Always Sunny. Those characters we see as beneath us.
If the Always Sunny characters were sent to prison for violating a Good Samaritan law, we would probably just nod. But when the Seinfeld characters went to prison, the viewers felt personally attacked.
I think the best part about it is you see the finale coming on curb, and you get a lil chuckle out of it mirroring Seinfelds, and then you get a great payoff in the end when they subvert it
One thing that i remind myself of the timescale that you are talking about. When talking about creative decisions, all these decisions are a lifetime (and 2 masterpieces) for Larry!
The curb finale was absolutely perfect.
I had no problems with the Seinfeld finale, in large part because it was a sitcom that needed no narrative closure. The finale was a nice greatest hits compliation while commenting on the fact that a "show about nothing" was really a show about a group of New York a-holes just being real. However, the points you bring up make a lot of sense and I've been convinced that Curb was a much improved version of that Seinfeld finale. Great video.
Although I love a lot of the concepts throughout the series, when the show came back for season 9 the tone shifted, and was much more about yelling. Every argument went from 0 to 100 in seconds and it's harder to watch. That being said, I watched the show all the way to the end because there was still gold to be harvested.
I didn't know the last season of Curb was out yet.
Curb has to be one of the funniest shows I have ever seen. %100 greatness. I pray for another season. Doubtful but hopeful
??? it's done. Had a finale
The curb ending was genius
4:50 it’s STILL called HBO, you weirdo. The only name change was to their streaming app. But to say, “what was then called hbo…” is a ridiculous statement.
Take it easy dude.
@@zerogeewhizyeah, I was thinking the same 😂
"Never learned anything" might be the title, but in the Curb finale Larry fixed everything that was wrong with the Sein ending. It was a good episode, Larry as a character played a big part (he didn't just sit at the table like in Sein), and with Jerry getting him out of jail, it capped the show.
Larry has been a smart guy. He was integral to putting Sein together and getting NBC to stick with it. That made him millions. When he went to fledgling HBO and said, "let's make billions", it was because he learned from his mistakes.
I also like curb ending since Larry basically did a spite ending by remaking Seinfeld ending.
Great breakdown! For those missing CURB, I'm making a Miami-based, younger sexier version of CURB (at least, we're trying very hard) that's releasing on this channel right here on UA-cam!
Also loved your other Curb breakdown on "The Doll" episode, and agreed that it was the first great Curb ep.
The final episode of curb was a great long con of a show with lots of foreshadowing which also helped it too. As you mentioned, the event that caused the trial happened in episode 1 of the season, but all season long they were hinting and trying to setup the final episode so that the audience could actually digest that whole episode better.
Curb gave us the Seinfeld reunion we all wanted and I think that was the perfect ending.
I would still ranked Seinfeld above Curb in any ranking.
And if You separate them by multi-camera and single shot, I think they both are in the top-5 of their respected categories
Everything you said about the Seinfeld finale was true, but I like how that was their turn for the karma. Them not changing just solidified their indifference towards everything around them and their dysfunctional relationships with each other.
Curbs series finale was absolutely brilliant.
I didn’t mind the Seinfeld ending at all. And the curb was just a cherry on top. Two goats of comedy
04:08; Cracked podcast a decade ago actually commended this and the "Cheers" finale for doing this.
I also see that Larry David learned how to deliver a line comedically from the guy who played George his alter ego in Seinfeld
I love this topic. I haven't watched much of either of these shows but the bts is so interesting. I didn't know Larry left for the last season. Jerry claiming he wanted to cut it off before it got redundant but it might've actually been because he lost the funniest guy involved in the show.
Their careers in general have gone in totally different directions as well. You can tell where the talent comes from. Larry David making a critically acclaimed comedy that ran for two decades and Seinfeld making a Bee Movie and Unfrosted. Pretty telling.
I didn't actually mind the ending, especially after hearing the actors talk about it. Firstly it was a sitcom, they don't have to have some great ending, the show was about nothing after all. Secondly, the characters were bad and selfish people, and the finale showed that. And lastly, it was a great way for the main cast to bring back all the people who they had enjoyed working with over the previous seasons.
Loved the original finale. The return of the side characters and the "about nothing" ending conversation. I think it was genius!
The timing on this video is crazy to me. I actually just finished the Curb finale two days ago.
I thought the best outcome for Curb would be for the jury to come back with "Not Guilty." Then some jurors would be interviewed on the news and say "I always wish I could have done that in that situation!" This would acknowledge that despite the reactions that Larry got in the show, many people think Larry was right most of the time.
Both shows were good in their own ways. Curb came back strong after a brief hiatus. With Seinfeld, it felt a little forced toward the end.
One of my favorite finales EVER. People can disagree, but they would be wrong.
I was shocked at the season finale of Seinfeld. Things on television did not end as darkly in those days. In retrospect, though, it was quintessential Larry David. I liked the Curb ending too. I’ll miss the show.
We are in dire need of a new Larry David / Jerry Seinfeld production for the next four years with the dispecable Orange Baboon.
Curb’s season 12 was pretty terrible though. Gotta say it even as a massive fan.
The show was finished after S8 even though it ended after S12
It felt totally different AFTER funkman died 😑
@@mikhailabdurrachman2443 Vaughn is funny though
@mikhailabdurrachman2443 To me, it just felt forced, unnecessarily political.. and not in a funny way. The George Bush picture joke? Hilarious, the MAGA hat bit? Awesome.. even the Don Jr bit was funny. This Georgia stuff just felt forced, they were yelling for the sake of it.. felt like Larry was pressured into doing it? Don’t know.. just felt uninspired. Even Season 11 had some cringe parts but 12 just completely fell apart.
I was only a child when Seinfeld ended, but I enjoyed the finale. It was likely the first time I saw a comedy end with the characters completely in the dumps.
I mean, whaaaat’s the deeeal with sitcom endings?!?
It's seemingly impossible, I cannot fault the finale of Curb except for one little thing I would have preferred - a little bit more Leon, but I can appreciate less is more and he was hilarious in the finale.
But to take the history of Seinfeld, the enduring tones of Curb and tie it all together perfectly just seems unbelievable.
*It was incredible*
Well, Dexter did it twice.
- Was I really a writer for SNL?
- Yes, for one season.
- Ah.
It's worth mentioning that seinfeld's finale has an imdb score of 7.8 and tge curb your enthusiasm one has a 9.2 score.
The biggest problem with the Seinfeld finale was judging the characters harshly for being shallow and petty. Part of the draw of the show was that the audience could relate to the characters shallow behaviour, but when that was portrayed as evil and criminal it seemed like the show was now judging the audience for relating. The characters weren’t criminals, as they talked about moral dilemmas all the time and wouldn’t actively break the law; they were merely self centred.
Seinfeld failed?
Curbs in my top three favorite sitcoms of all time, I never really watched Seinfeld unless it happened to be on and I never saw the finale. I'm kinda glad I didn't know that's what the final season of curb was referencing though.
My issue with the Seinfeld ending wasn't the fact that the stars went to prison, it was how cruel the stars were to the guy getting robbed. It wasn't who they were. They were selfish sometimes - self centred - but were never cruel. I liked the idea of bringing back the old characters, and it was worth them going to prison just for Jerry doing his stand up to the other convicts.
I thought it was absolutely brilliant and was grinning from ear to ear with the twist.
Never forget: This was in the era of “that person rescued a person from certain death, but because they were paralyzed in the rescue, they didn’t die but sued their rescuer and won” douchey-ness and uncertainty.
Lay-thum is a town in NY right near the border with Massachusetts. I bet that's where the inspiration for the name comes from!
Honestly, I would've liked to see more of the sarcastic waitress from the Seinfeld pilot and Wayne Knight deserved an Emmy for the way he was eating the popcorn in the courtroom during the finale.
Curb was better because Seinfeld wasn't being not funny the whole time.
Seinfelds finale was the best finale of any show in history. It was absolutely brilliant
a bigger issue with seinfeld's trail too is it's about a law that's so insane it could never actually exist, it's a law made up for a show to chastise the characters and audience for enjoy the 9 seasons that proceeded it.
I like how Larry David has literally looked the exact same as he did thirty years ago.
Season 8 & 9 had some of the best episodes of all-time. Larry leaving was not as catastrophic as Nerdstalgic makes it out to be.
What the hell are you talking about? The final was perfect!
We got to see again the characters we loved and got reminded of all those crazy situations that were so funny during the entire series! The final didn't have to see crazy funny, but just a reminder of everything that happened. That is why the music from Green Day was so suiting "Good Riddance - Time of Your Life"
The four were bad persons. They behave in very selfish ways and that is why the series was so funny.
The trial made a lot of sense, because they had to face the consequences of being bad people. Normally we get to see the "hero", but this series was about normal people behaving badly but still thinking they were good people. I loved the finale!
The problem of Lost was completely different. The problem was the entire series, not the finale. They had no clue what they were doing and started inventing plots and created a mess of a series. Please, do not use Lost and Seinfeld in the same sentence. Seinfeld is still one of the best series ever.
Who tf thinks Seinfeld finale was underwhelming. I think it was one of the most brilliant and genius finales ever.
Gee, thanks for spoiling curb for me.
Only Larry David would have the chutzpah to recreate an episode just to make amends, but at the same time emphasizing that he was correct the first time except for one detail.
If there are apologists that liked the Seinfeld ending, more power to them. But they’re still in the minority. I still remember watching that finale when it aired and being disappointed. Glad to here that CURB “fixed” it.
I get why SEINFELD would want an Ep that’s just an excuse to bring back all the great guest characters, but that should’ve been the penultimate Ep, so the finale could focus on the four main players.
I love the final scene of Jerry doing his standup in prison.
6:14 "greatest hits moments" I see what you did there! 😂
Shows “fail” when an audience isn’t satisfied with an ended. Lost, Battlestar Galactica, Dexter, Seinfeld, I was fine with all of their endings. If any show is art, it doesn’t matter what the viewer thinks at its resolution. It matters to the people who created it and participated in it
This is nonsense. Larry was a bad writer who was largely responsible for almost getting the show cancelled with his awful S1 and S2 episodes such as the Chinese Restaurant, and after they were forced to get new better writers, Larry couldn't keep up and that's why he had to leave the show. The show improved immensely as a result. Unfortunately Jerry (whose stand-up is terrible) had the terrible idea of bringing Larry back for the finale. The results were exactly what you'd expect.
I was disappointed by the Seinfeld finale. Watched it when it first ran.
It has aged well for me. I now like the final episode and how it ended.
Funny thing is the Seinfeld finale mirrors our current reality where people stand and record events with their phone instead of helping.
Didn't you already make this video?
The ending was perfect in my opinion. These characters where utterly self centered, ego driven and usually fairly morally deficit, they ended up in a situation that all the small indiscretions finally come back to bite them in they’re a$$
"what was then called HBO...." wait, it's not HBO anymore? when did that happen?
I googled it. It's still called HBO.
@@LilySaintSin ah they're messing with us!
I loved the Seinfeld finale and the Curb finale was icing on the cake.
I liked the final episode of Seinfeld. I was so excited for it, and being in a small Australian town still in High School, my friends were a little bemused that I liked the show. It wasn't cool for an 18 year old to like.
3:08 FRANK DOES HIS STOP SHORT MOVE
The Curb Your Enthusiasm ending was pretty pretty pretty pretty good but the best ending of a T.V. show of all time was Better Call Saul.
I've grown to appreciate the finale
Seinfeld didn't fail anywhere.
I wish the funk man was there for the curb finale. He was my favorite character.
Hey Tyler, any updates on the movie?
It’s still called HBO…
This video is beyond dumb. Seinfeld had a great finale. Even though people say the show waivers after Larry left, I feel like the last couple seasons had some of the most memorable episodes, in a good way. Curb is good but that is mainly based on David.
"This is how we should have ended the finale." No, it isn't, because then we wouldn't have got that great material of Jerry doing standup in prison. It was the perfect finale. Better than Curb's, which came a few seasons too late. (They should have ended it when Bob Einstein died. He was to that show what Phil Hartman was to The Simpsons.)
Why haven't you guys talked about Psych or House MD yet? There's plenty of great topics to come from both of those shows.
great idea!
Oh my cnat wait for house episodes
Curb was hidden under the rock of cable, and could say anything.
Larry David has been 76 years old for 30 years
They go to prison for not doing anything which is perfect for a show about nothing.
I like Curb better than Seinfeld
they're both great shows
Curb is better by all metrics, that's what happens when Larry isn't held back by Jerry.
I like Seinfeld better than Curb