41:00 Initially in the Horus Heresy the presence of Chaos was extremely limited as the legions were not as fully corrupted as they become in 40K. In the first few books there are very few options for outright chaos stuff, even among the Traitor legions, the most obvious was Emperors Children and then the Word Bearers actually introduced Daemons etc. I think that is where they (GW) are trying to go with that comparison in that the forces of Chaos in the Old World may not be as strong or as diverse as what players knew in the traditional Fantasy setting or in AoS?
I'm guessing that they just want to lower expectations because they don't have the production capacity to put mono-god minis out. Given the amount of unavailable stuff in the store they are clearly struggling to keep up with demand.
While other more mature and informative podcasts would have addressed all this (and I certainly could have, having previously read the first 5-6 HH books!), I rather enjoyed poo-pooing it as non-fantasy irrelevant guff :D - Josh
I loved being at tournaments in the past where win lose draw decided best general. but best overall was a higher award than that and it was for w-l, sportsmanship, army composition , painting score. It was great when the best general was never the same person as the best overall winner.
20:30 Fear and Terror feel a little convoluted. I can understand and agree with the higher unit strength for Fear to kick in, that makes a bit of sense. However the overlay of Terror on that feels a little half baked, like Josh says there is nothing extra for a unit to charge a Terror causer (like it should be maybe -1 to Leadership or something) but then there is no Unit Strength requirement when a terror unit charges a unit to take the test. I had an Empire knight unit (10 strong) get charged by a single model that caused Terror and they fled off the board. Feels a little strange.
For the pre-game warrior duel with the wolves of the sea, dies it say of both participants count as charging? That's important for weapons such as flails, lances, cavalry spears etc.
I think you are spot on that they rules designers do not play the game, or at least not with anything like an optimised lists. Chaos Lord on Dragon with 2+/5+/5+ saves would take, on average, about 34 shots from Dwarf cannon.
I heard the extremely old battle Wagon for Empire Arcane Journal but luminarium and orcanium would also be cool. Missing the Van Horstman speculum though :-D would be nice gainst those dragons on a pegasus captain. Talking half an hour about a 6ed Tournament in an Old World podcast is a bit off though.
I really doubt we can find a way to get those two buff wagons in the game. The colleges of magic created them after the siege of Prague when Teclis helped them.
Split Lords and Heroes again and max the points for each at 25%. Then you make people chose between the combat lord on dragon or a level 4 wizard... or level 4 wizard on dragon. 😅
Yeah looks like I need to keep fiddling with it. So far my recipe for metallic teal on my Cult fellows has been regular metallic with thinned teal contrast as a filter - Josh
Nice vid. WRT WotS challenges, unless you know your opponent is bring a WotS list how likley would you be to specifically tool up a champion to deal with it? I think this is the big advantage for the Chaos player, as they know they are playing WotS list and can tool up one champion to win the challenge, and probably give them a favour of the Gods too!
@@ClydeMillerWynant if a WotS champion is tooled up, maybe Vampires & Tomb Kings (who can just resurrect theirs) still will. Others will look at the odds and probably accept going 2nd.
@@doubleskulls I suppose you can at least deploy knowing you're going second (unless perhaps they don't even issue the challenge though that seems unlikely). And if you have more drops then you were quite likely to be going second anyway. I suppose initiative on a decent combat champion will play a fairly significant role in deciding whether to accept the challenge as going first must be a pretty big statistical advantage. Hadn't thought about the Undead ones coming back, seems like there's nothing to stop them doing that from what I can see.
That promotes broken list and trying to beat your opponent without them getting to kill anything at all. totally feels bad for them. The best games by far the games that end up barely winning or a draw
@@GilthosDrakoniss I'd say it goes the other direction, removes the incentive to play points denial and just becomes about what you can kill in return, far more likely to result in draws than the current situation.
If they lowered the available points to spend on characters to 33% or whatever. Then a 600 point lord on a dragon is still an awesome model and investment, but it stops you from also taking a level 4 wizard. Forcing that choice on players without nerfing either thing is the best solution.
41:00 Initially in the Horus Heresy the presence of Chaos was extremely limited as the legions were not as fully corrupted as they become in 40K. In the first few books there are very few options for outright chaos stuff, even among the Traitor legions, the most obvious was Emperors Children and then the Word Bearers actually introduced Daemons etc.
I think that is where they (GW) are trying to go with that comparison in that the forces of Chaos in the Old World may not be as strong or as diverse as what players knew in the traditional Fantasy setting or in AoS?
I'm guessing that they just want to lower expectations because they don't have the production capacity to put mono-god minis out. Given the amount of unavailable stuff in the store they are clearly struggling to keep up with demand.
While other more mature and informative podcasts would have addressed all this (and I certainly could have, having previously read the first 5-6 HH books!), I rather enjoyed poo-pooing it as non-fantasy irrelevant guff :D - Josh
I loved being at tournaments in the past where win lose draw decided best general. but best overall was a higher award than that and it was for w-l, sportsmanship, army composition , painting score. It was great when the best general was never the same person as the best overall winner.
I’m going to a tournament with that scoring this weekend; I know I won’t take first place but I’m gonna have a lot of fun
20:30 Fear and Terror feel a little convoluted. I can understand and agree with the higher unit strength for Fear to kick in, that makes a bit of sense. However the overlay of Terror on that feels a little half baked, like Josh says there is nothing extra for a unit to charge a Terror causer (like it should be maybe -1 to Leadership or something) but then there is no Unit Strength requirement when a terror unit charges a unit to take the test. I had an Empire knight unit (10 strong) get charged by a single model that caused Terror and they fled off the board. Feels a little strange.
For the pre-game warrior duel with the wolves of the sea, dies it say of both participants count as charging? That's important for weapons such as flails, lances, cavalry spears etc.
I think you are spot on that they rules designers do not play the game, or at least not with anything like an optimised lists. Chaos Lord on Dragon with 2+/5+/5+ saves would take, on average, about 34 shots from Dwarf cannon.
It's not even as if they would need to go through anything remotely approaching the full maths. It's got 10 wounds and the cannon only does D3!
I just think they don't actually understand the maths that underpin the game, hence the chronic under-costing (or powering) of the big monsters.
I heard the extremely old battle Wagon for Empire Arcane Journal but luminarium and orcanium would also be cool. Missing the Van Horstman speculum though :-D would be nice gainst those dragons on a pegasus captain. Talking half an hour about a 6ed Tournament in an Old World podcast is a bit off though.
I prefer just win, loss, draw.. but I also want points for army composition points for sportsmanship back again. I am a big proponent of 33% heroes.
I really doubt we can find a way to get those two buff wagons in the game. The colleges of magic created them after the siege of Prague when Teclis helped them.
Split Lords and Heroes again and max the points for each at 25%. Then you make people chose between the combat lord on dragon or a level 4 wizard... or level 4 wizard on dragon. 😅
Yeah I don't mind that
The army painter speed paint metallics work best over white that’s why Josh felt it was too translucent
They look the goods for sure. I loved the sky blue Dwarfs!!
Yeah looks like I need to keep fiddling with it. So far my recipe for metallic teal on my Cult fellows has been regular metallic with thinned teal contrast as a filter - Josh
Nice vid. WRT WotS challenges, unless you know your opponent is bring a WotS list how likley would you be to specifically tool up a champion to deal with it? I think this is the big advantage for the Chaos player, as they know they are playing WotS list and can tool up one champion to win the challenge, and probably give them a favour of the Gods too!
Wonder how common it will be just to refuse the challenge.
@@ClydeMillerWynant if a WotS champion is tooled up, maybe Vampires & Tomb Kings (who can just resurrect theirs) still will. Others will look at the odds and probably accept going 2nd.
@@doubleskulls I suppose you can at least deploy knowing you're going second (unless perhaps they don't even issue the challenge though that seems unlikely). And if you have more drops then you were quite likely to be going second anyway. I suppose initiative on a decent combat champion will play a fairly significant role in deciding whether to accept the challenge as going first must be a pretty big statistical advantage. Hadn't thought about the Undead ones coming back, seems like there's nothing to stop them doing that from what I can see.
The real mode we need as a change for a tournament is pure kill score. Winner is the person who kills the most, not differential.
Oh. Personally, that mode makes me wanna never play ever again.
That promotes broken list and trying to beat your opponent without them getting to kill anything at all. totally feels bad for them. The best games by far the games that end up barely winning or a draw
@@GilthosDrakoniss I'd say it goes the other direction, removes the incentive to play points denial and just becomes about what you can kill in return, far more likely to result in draws than the current situation.
If they lowered the available points to spend on characters to 33% or whatever. Then a 600 point lord on a dragon is still an awesome model and investment, but it stops you from also taking a level 4 wizard. Forcing that choice on players without nerfing either thing is the best solution.