You dangerously starting to fill a hole that This Old Tony left with his rarer and rarer uploads. I mean everything is there. The hands. The narration. Even your fingernails is rather similar. Maybe less shenanigans, but that ain't that big of an issue :D
Regarding endmills, I recommend HHS-PM, these are much tougher then HHS-Co or HSS-E cutters and much cheaper then carbide. Once you ran a HSS-PM roughing endmill on a smaller mill, you start asking yourself, if your mill is really that capable. HSS-PM is also designed to work well without coolant.
When it comes to endmills, i can highly recommend to use 2 flute end mills for general work and roughing, if you are not in a hurry. they are not too dissimilar to drills in terms of resharpening, which means, you can use up the lower portion of the edge and just regrind the face each time it wears out. you can check if you ground them evenly with a square and even if the edges are like 0.2mm off, they still perform relatively well. If you have a sharp angled grinding stine on your bench grinder, you might be able to regrind the faces of 3 flute end mills, but anything above is extremely difficult, if at all possible.I also recommend to grind the 2 flute endmills assymetricly, so they can cut downwards cleanly. you do it a bit like web thinning on a drill, just unevenly on purpose.
My grandpa gave me his old mill and tooling some time ago, and he had a collection of broken inserts that weighed about 50ibs. It's only gotten bigger since then lol
The Machinery's Handbook recommends not using cutting fluids with carbide tools unless you can really flood the cutting edge with a continuous stream of fluid. If you use insufficient fluid, or just the occasional spray or brush of fluid, the cutting edge is likely to be damaged by thermal shock, which will eventually lead to failure.
thats more a myth and often is regared toward work hardining the workpieace by the unconstent cooling.The think is.When machinung you are not reaching such critical tempertures.IF you do something is off(this is for the standard usecase.non exotic alloy). Carbide can handle temperture change in the amount it happes. Cooling the tool is also done by the chips. The Machinist handbock is good,but also old. So...
That’s not true in a home workshop. That’s for large machines running at high speeds with deep cuts. With those, the carbide can reach 1,500 degrees. If you intermittently add cooling, it could crack. In a home shop, that’s never a problem. Spray misting is fine and the occasional dap by a brush is fine too.
@@bosanaz2010the book is not old. It’s significantly updated every few years. The latest one I have is the 33rd edition and it came out around three years ago and another one is now coming out.
I work at a factory that does primarily plastics. For cutting plastic we exclusively run HSS and sharpen very regularly. He mentioned it briefly with acetal, but for cutting gummy plastics like HDPE and ot TPE/TPU, sharp HSS is king, and one of the only things that can actually break a chip
end mill sharpening services are a great alternative compared to buying new, both for HSS as well as carbide. sharpening costs between $5 and $15 here in the US (for 5mm to 16mm), and is usually done on CNC rigs. the end mills I get back from my sharpening service perform better than the original. This works for sharpening just the front, but also reworking the side flutes (in case of chippage, the diameter gets smaller), or just shortening the tool (which is fine in many cases)
You might look into recycling your carbide inserts as a consideration for your stockpile of used inserts. I believe that Sandvik and Kennametal (at the very least) have recycling programs to reduce the need for new raw materials all the time. This reduces the need for sourcing the limited stock of Tungsten/Tantalum/Titanium (depending on what type of carbide is being used) and (potentially more importantly, especially ethically) the need for extraction of cobalt.
Honestly, this is the best summary type video on the topic out there for the homeshopper, and I've seen a few. Just tooled up my 7x10 Sieg lathe following the same principles you mentioned, keep it up man!
Your gonna run carbides on a 7 x 10 lathe? I wouldn’t cut much more than plastics and light aluminum work with them. They love heavy loads to cut well and will destroy tool holders and posts and basically destroy little lathes. Make sure you buy the correct inserts for mini lathes.
I use carbide simply because I cant be f'd fluffing around grinding tools and setting tool heights each time. For special occasions, all good. A big thing I have found is that using polished aluminium inserts on soft steel work mint. Similar to a really sharp HSS tool.
Thank you for a nice run through! I have to admit I haven't learned to know the differences, and make any much informed choices really. I'm 61, and when I started out with the occasional machining in my teens, there wasn't anything but HSS. And there was endless reading about how to grind the tools. Too much I think! It just daunted me into thinking I couldn't do it. So when I returned to occasional machining after a 30-40 year hiatus, carbide tips just felt like a liberation factor! Kind of how people felt when "the pill" arrived. Much more joy and less worry. I learned of solid carbide tooling by very lucky chance! I had these laser cut parts out of stainless steel, but the exact shape had to be experimentally found out. So I bought a small carbide cutter - not knowing what I did - and used it freehand in a Dremel tool, to carve out the exact shape. As if I was carving wood with a knife! That 3mm carbide endmill has earned it's place in the hall of fame!😄 A very old and experienced toolmaker just looked at me in awe, commenting, that would never have been possible with anything but solid carbide. I think he considered my working methods exceptionally odd at times. But we taught each other things, and in the end we made a (my) patented idea also work in real life, and go into production. It was the perfect old meets new. (Unfortunately I could not afford to hire him permanently to serve his last years, as was suggested.) I bet that man could have hand ground a workable endmill! He did it with drillbits all the time!😀
I was taught how to hand grind drill bits by an old toolmaker enough years ago that the buildings we were in have been gone 3 decades. I agree with you about those old toolmakers being able to hand grind end mills.
The only thing I use HSS for on the lathe in my homeshop is for Forming Tools for everything else I use Carbide Inserts. Yeah they can be pricey but at long as you take care of them they'll last for quite a while and they just work, there's no dicking around having to regrind the cutting edge you just pop your tool holder in and you're good to go.
I run a HAAS VF5 and this video still helps a lot to get some basic info down, especially the face endmill you made. A lot of on the job "training" is just "do this, and hit the green button"
I don't currently own any hss tooling. Carbide lathe inserts are disposably cheap if you shop. Carbide milling end mills in sizes up to 5/16 can be had in specialty cutters that can handle hours in the cut of titanium or stainless and will cost from $5 to $15 per cutter if you shop hard. Small machines don't have a lot of rigidity so I only break out 1/2" and larger when rarely needed. The carbide even cheap carbide you can abuse the bottom of the mill and they last a while. Hss end mills in smaller sizes aren't cheaper than carbide.
Nice explaination! I use a lot of inserts too on my lathe. For my 'mill' that is still on my little Unimat SL with milling-plate... well I use carbide too, the small inserts that are cheap (like 3 $ for 5) for CNC's. That is mostly since that machine cannot work well with bigger tools. About the old inserts: the other points can probably be used in a fly-cutter too. I'm also collecting them and probably use them for that at some time when I have a better miling-setup.
I've always thought it would be cool if someone made HSS inserts that would fit carbide insert holders. You could even make them from powdered HSS the same as carbide. Would be great for hobbyists.
High speed steel also has a lower cutting pressure. This is useful when chattering is a problem. High-speed Steel has saved my backside a few times now
An old carbide endmill got me out of a jam recently. I ordered some cabinet scrapers to finish a piece of high end furniture for a family member and I’d always heard that you can use a screwdriver to burnish the cutting edge but it was nowhere near hard enough. The carbide endmill made quick work of the job and I was able to get a really good shaving out of my scrapers.
Great idea. I bought a carbide burnisher from Lee Valley years ago before doing any metal work, but a worn out end mill glued into a piece of wood would be basically the same thing for free. I like it better than my old hardened steel burnisher because it doesn't rust.
most of my work is 6061, and I am using mostly the super sharp insert styles design for alu. i do occasionally stainless steel and regular steel, and those inserts work perfectly fine (may not have the longest service life). the interesting thing about the sharp carbide inserts is that you can re-hone them with a diamond stone, since the cutting edge geometry isn't that complex.
Great video, nothing conflicting to my experience. And a couple of things I never thought about. When starting working in a machine shop in the seventies, carbide inserts was common. Before CNC machines existed. When started with CNC lathes in the eighties, only used inserts. Now a retired hobby machinist. Mostly same tooling as you use. But not sure if I prefer HSS or carbide for parting off in different materials.
About the consistency und surface finish from inserts. I worked at a cnc lathe shop and one of the machines turned pieces ofstainless steel hex bar down for some special bolts. Everything went fine (this machine then was one of the loudest of all while roughing the hex profile) until I changed the insert for a fresh one. After that, the surface finish was ruined and we spent the next one and a half days to find a solution (changing speeds & feeds, adding tail support, etc.).
I machine a fair bit of cast iron castings for my trains and these have chilled spots here and there which hss won't touch but the carbide us735 cuts it like butter, I do like hss but the inserts are so convenient.
another big consideration for the mill is spindle speed, for the "classical" mills like the one you have, you have the option to go HSS. On machines with the Chinese high speed spindles, like my Milo, you dont get that option as the HSS would basically burn up instantly, as the minimum RPM is at least like 12-15k..
Thanks for the video, good perspective. I use both. A lot of carbide but my cut off tool is HSS and I do use the tangential tool holder with HSS too, both are quick to sharpen. I think my lathe may be more rigid that some of the small lathes though.
If your little machine can spin fast enough to match the surface speed profile, carbide makes perfect sense. That said, you absolutely can put an extremely sharp edge onto carbide with diamond, either a wheel or even with plates, it just takes a LONG time, because if you go too fast it will likely chip at the micro level.
I'm always happy to come to a video that explains why you think a particular way is best, discusses the alternatives, and acknowledges that YMMV. So-called "influencers" who knows The One True Way are friggin' annoying
I guess button inserts on a fly cutter get around the interrupted cut issue because the shape of the insert means you get more of a "scissor" action at the edges of the part, rather than slamming the cutting edge flat into the side of the part.
When you overheat HSS, I’d doesn’t lose its temper, it loses its hardness. To temper is to impart toughness , high temper = low hardness, high toughness . Cheers , good vid.
You have to take it to about 400-500c for it start to lose hardness and still remains my point. But you will change the other aspects of the temper too.
So, now if we have a Quorn T&C grinder or a look alike Chinese model, you can make/remake cutters with end profiles that are consistent as opposed to hand ground might work cutters for economy etc and carbide really does need to have good end profiles to ensure they are supported on the all important edge area. I have a couple of facing cutters with 5 or 6 carbide inserts but the cost of replacing a set, as they seem to easily chip, and it's too much of a cost for most machining that can be done with solid carbide end mills and fly cutters.
I'm pretty good at sharpening drills, but I've never managed to get an end mill to cut well after resharpening. Square end makes it very difficult to polish one blade without touching the other and dulling it. I suppose I could try grinding one to a not-quite-square end for roughing, though. You can't really use them for finish work anyway since grinding material off the side-cutting blades means they no longer cut a proper vertical wall either.
Remember that carbide wants flood cooling or no cooling. Not a spray bottle manual squirting 😅 And for the end mills cutting at both sides when going straight is A BAD IDEA! that is a great way to break them like you showed in the video since it deflects one way and grabs then suddenly the other way, you should only cut at one side if you follow an existing track (like where you used it to make that treaded piece)
I’m not saying there’s no merit to it but I don’t see a reduction in tool life using intermittent cooling. It’s probably more an issue on large machines but ive always found intermittent cooling to be better than to let the carbide run dry. At least with prolonged cuts
@@artisanmakes intermittent cooling can seriously degrade lifetime - but that is when used in more industrial scenarios with very aggressive cuts and far higher working temperatures.
Any suggestions for milling off forge scale? I know its aggresive but would be such a timer and effort saver to be able to do it without the dusty mess of grinders
The big shell mill i have creates mirror finishes on the part but i bought it as it's near to impossible to make such a shell mill without it being unround.
I would advise you to get a proper grinding wheel for the hss... you'll get more consistent results and less burnt tools... My pet peeve with carbide is how easily they chip if you turn off the power whilst in the cut... High positive raked HSS is great for reducing the HP required , important on a small lathe... Nice vid ! 😎👍☘️🍻
" if you turn off the power whilst in the cut... " why would you do that other than in an emergency (where the cost of the insert is irrelevant to begin with) ?
@ABaumstumpf I'm not advocating turning off the power, I'm just showing the fragility of carbide compared to, say, HSS... reversing a spindle when threading with a carbide die might simulate it though...
Very interesting thanks. Crobalt is great on harder stuff, can be sharpened and does not need coolant. Eccentric Engineering sells it. Sort of a poor mans Carbide but deceptively effective especially in a Diamond tool holder
Indexable carbide tooling is the subscription service of tooling manufacturers. How many times can you sharpen a 3 inch long HSS turning tool? Unless youre only turning 4140 or hardened steel at high production volumes high speed tooling is cheaper in the long run.
Really interesting stuff indeed! Thanks a bunch, dude!!! 😃 But yeah, I guess I'm going to keep my hobbyist interests in wood for now. 😬 Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
carbide inserts are cheap because they are being used so widely.. hss inserts - not so much. This is the result of economies of scale. Hobby carbide use rides on the coattails of CNC machinery needing this stuff.
Yes, the usual Artisan Makes style we like! But after that face revealing video don't forget to make another channel for housrwives where you do the hacksaw thing with oiled upper body and so 😂 because after my girlfriends saw it I think there is a demand to it
Carbide was invented back in 1936, so it wasn’t developed for CNC. Over the past decade or almost two, carbide inserts have gotten much sharper. That sharpness has been a major difference between HSS and carbide. I’ve found that most home shop people don’t know the difference between negative, neutral and positive rake. If you use a negative rake tool on small equipment, you will have a problem and that’s the reason why the bad press about carbide and small equipment. Use positive rake carbide tooling with the proper inserts and it’s a different world. You can even carefully hone a carbide insert, if you know what you’re doing. That can make a difference. Or buy cemented carbide bits. They’re like HSS tools and can be sharpened.
Carbide is best used on beefy machines that have the power needed to run the feeds and speeds that make it useful. I don't think it has anything to do with CNC vs manual. I guess you can call it a composite, because it is a combination of carbon and a metal, but what it really is, is a ceramic. Thanks for the video.
I’d say that there is at least a benefit to using it on a cnc because you can climb mill with them without much trouble. It’s not something I’d want to do with my carbide when I use them on the manual mill.
@@artisanmakes Sure, it is useful for CNC, it is not *just for CNC,* and certainly not designed for CNC. In my incredibly limited experience, your success with climb cutting is down to experience, rigidity, and backlash.
They do for lathes, you can by pre-ground HSS inserts. Look up accusize pre-ground inserts for lathe. I bought them when starting out so I had an idea of how to grind them.
What I mean is, the same size as carbide inserts CCMT, DCMT, etc. I looked at those and they're full length HSS tools pre-ground. About $50 a set. I guess kyocera makes some CCMT out of HSS, but they're more expensive than carbide. 🤯
carbide inserts are used in industry, hss not so much (anymore).. thus economies of scale give us "cheap" carbide inserts, but no hss inserts (for hobby machines).
@@devurandom2019 Search in woodworking tools, there you can find HSS inserts. For CCMT or DCMT just use the grinded and polished carbide inserts for alu, they are as good as HSS
Man I think you are wrong about sharpening endmills. You can usually get a 1/2" HSS end mill resharpened for like $5 or less, and carbide for around $10, a bit more if you want either coated (which you do). Granted they are rarely exactly 1/2" when they return, but they grind to a usable size, like .495. The size doesn't really matter though since you are cutting with either a DRO or measuring the part anyway. In fact I buy reground endmills almost exclusively.
ebay job-lots are your friend for carbide tooling. I just picked up >100 6-16mm carbide endmills for ~£100 for the lot. most slightly used but all in good condition, brand names. lifetime supply. wish my minimill went a bit faster to take propper advantage of the smaller ones though.
I run my HSS drills at 60 sfm, compared to 500 sfm for solid carbide drills. I can normally also get a higher chip load with carbide. But that’s from a guy who runs a 30 foot diameter vertical lathe with live tooling
Aah - now we're talking a proper machine. I worked on one the same size back in the late 70's. Schiess Froriep @ Vickers Ruwolt in Richmond (now Ikea). Beautiful machine that could do fine work or major cuts. My most memorable was 25mm deep 3mm feed. Some times it would chip beautifully and other times (in the same cut) it wouldn't. Then you had 25x3mm bar coming straight off the tool.... Its weight would break it at about a bit over a metre long.
16:30 - rigidity of a machine became less important with more rpm. all you say applies well to a conventional mill with spindle speed up to 3000-6000rpm, but when you came to CNC territory its another story. HSS tooling is just doesn't work. but with carbide even small 80-100kg "router" (which is nearly not as rigid as cast iron mill) will remove material much faster using HSM strategies.
Make jewelry from the carbide that looks nice anyway. It's probably a dumb question, cant the carbide be resharpened with a diamond grinding disc? Just enough to get the edge back?
Carbide endmills and cutting tools can be if they’re just dulled and you have the right machine and jig to do it. But the economics of inserts makes it cheaper to replace them.
I notice you are going through quite a lot of DCMT/DCGT 070204 inserts ! All my bought insert tooling uses those inserts , but you only use the two sharp ends of those inserts ! I have made myself a few single insert cutters for the milling machine that use the other 2 corners on the inserts !
I strongly disagree on the insert selection: Having more or fewer different inserts has basically no impact on the overall cost. If anything having more will be cheaper - use the right tool for the right job and it will either give a better result or last longer. The only cost increase is the one-time upfront cost of the very first batch you buy - as instead of 6 sets of insert you now have 20 sets of inserts. Of course there is then also switching the tools - when using just 1 type of insert then you don't need to change anything, if you are using 3 different tools for the same job then you might get better tool-life and better parts, but you now have to also switch the tools.
Thats okay, you do what suits your set up and needs best. This suits my workflow best. I tend to save a bit more because I buy my inserts in bulk so I save a bit more just buying 2 or 3 types and getting 5 or so packs of them.
@@artisanmakes It is just a comment on the validity of the statement cause: "so I save a bit more just buying 2 or 3 types and getting 5 or so packs of them." That would not change the slightest with having more types. the cost would either stay the same or be lower. But if your workflow does not benefit from that, or worse you would have to constantly change the tools, that is a different thing and makes using them not worth it for your workflow. But it would not be more expensivee.
@@ABaumstumpf I see a difference. with my wallet I use mainly DCMT, I can afford to buy them in bulk and get the discount. If I have the more different types that I use I can not justify buying bulk orders of 5 or 6 different types of inserts. I only get the discounts if I am buying many packs of the same specific insert. Maybe you see a difference, remember I am not a machinist, this is not my job so they way that i buy and order my tooling is structured so minimize costs and I do see a reduction in costs here. Your milage may vary
Gear Cutters i also only found as HSS there is no Carbide version. There are also diffrent cutting edges like there are some that have little bumps that are more for roughing and interrupted cuts.
@@platin2148 I only searched for carbide gear hob and results came up, while nothing for cutters. As for power skiving vs hobbing - no idea.. I'm not from the trade. I'm just an engineer with a hobby-shop. ;-)
I have some SECO finishing inserts that call for 500-700m/min speed for steel. They leave a mirror finish in mild steel. That's 20-30 times more than HSS max speeds and HSS will never make a mirror finish in mild steel.
I used cheap Chinese inserts for years. Then I changed to branded inserts and would never go back. Sure they cost more, but if you choose the right brand it's not that much more. Kyocera is a good compromise.
You might get quite some return by asking the producers to take back the inserts. They can be recycled easily and the production cycle is very costly. If it was for recycling only, carbide inserts would cost a fraction and make them really affordable compared to HSS.
There's a big difference between korean and chinese carbide. Chinese carbide can be sharpened / ground, Korean carbide can be used to grind the grinder.
hi. ever thought of making a 3000 to 6000 grit diamond wheel. you can polish both types with one grit rpm..s in 1000 to 2500rmp.. works well . and you only have to touch the face and its done.. instead of grinding.. so much better and faster. evern on carbide.. tone U.K.
End Mills i buy HSS-PM or Carbide there is no normal HSS anymore it i can simply not work with it. I do have insert end mills down to 6 mm Well the quality cutter from Germany i have as HSS which i don't really use is 25 bucks.
I'll admit the real reason I use carbide insert tools: because I'm lazy. Bolting on an insert that already has the perfect geometry and chip breaker is faster and easier than grinding hss blanks.
aluminium inserts since they are uncoated cannot run faster than 80% of what was recommanded for coated inserts(TiCN) or 40% of TiAlN coated inserts i recommand 100m/min and only on small finishing cuts, they are too sharp to handle the heat compared to normal finishing steel carbides and i mean 100m/min on 162HB C45, lower for higher HB
You will never never be able to achieve the efficiency necessary to maximize carbide cutting tools can offer on a slow, (Low RPM 2000 and under) or low horsepower machines. It will not matter if you are using a mill or a lathe. High speed is normally used at 60 to 80 surface speed, carbide's normal range is between 300 and 1000 Surface speed, and much higher for aluminum. A piece of 1" Diameter steel clamped in a lathe would need to run 4000 rpm to get to 1000 surface speed, that along with a constant stream of coolant would get you the most from a carbide insert. This is a real problem for most home shop machinist. CNC machines do well because they are designed around carbide cutting process. TIGHT Environmental CONTROL, constant and variable spindle speed relative to the feed no matter diameter of the part or cutter. The tools you show in your post are correct choice for light low horsepower machines, but even at that most of their cutting potential is lost.
You dangerously starting to fill a hole that This Old Tony left with his rarer and rarer uploads. I mean everything is there. The hands. The narration. Even your fingernails is rather similar. Maybe less shenanigans, but that ain't that big of an issue :D
I knew his videos like this reminded me of someone.
@@jeffwithheldforsafety8359 So it's not just me!
Is this the beginning of an elaborate and unnecessary conspiracy theory?
@@Salmonandfriends unfortunately, we have seen both their faces already :(
“Keep my wife's name out your lathing mouth"
Why I use carbide is because my work uses carbide and a conservative change frequency so a lot of the "dead" tools still have some use for home
Regarding endmills, I recommend HHS-PM, these are much tougher then HHS-Co or HSS-E cutters and much cheaper then carbide. Once you ran a HSS-PM roughing endmill on a smaller mill, you start asking yourself, if your mill is really that capable. HSS-PM is also designed to work well without coolant.
When it comes to endmills, i can highly recommend to use 2 flute end mills for general work and roughing, if you are not in a hurry. they are not too dissimilar to drills in terms of resharpening, which means, you can use up the lower portion of the edge and just regrind the face each time it wears out. you can check if you ground them evenly with a square and even if the edges are like 0.2mm off, they still perform relatively well. If you have a sharp angled grinding stine on your bench grinder, you might be able to regrind the faces of 3 flute end mills, but anything above is extremely difficult, if at all possible.I also recommend to grind the 2 flute endmills assymetricly, so they can cut downwards cleanly. you do it a bit like web thinning on a drill, just unevenly on purpose.
End mills that have 2 flutes are called slot drills. Learn to use cutters correctly and you will find you don't break/damage the tools as much.
Glad to see your finger is healing up well :)
I always look forward to seeing your videos each week.
My grandpa gave me his old mill and tooling some time ago, and he had a collection of broken inserts that weighed about 50ibs. It's only gotten bigger since then lol
You can recycle that for a good chunk of change
@vivigarr most definitely altho having spare carbides is nice for tool making or weights
The Machinery's Handbook recommends not using cutting fluids with carbide tools unless you can really flood the cutting edge with a continuous stream of fluid. If you use insufficient fluid, or just the occasional spray or brush of fluid, the cutting edge is likely to be damaged by thermal shock, which will eventually lead to failure.
Thanks for the info
thats more a myth and often is regared toward work hardining the workpieace by the unconstent cooling.The think is.When machinung you are not reaching such critical tempertures.IF you do something is off(this is for the standard usecase.non exotic alloy).
Carbide can handle temperture change in the amount it happes. Cooling the tool is also done by the chips. The Machinist handbock is good,but also old. So...
"Eventually lead to failure" all endmills eventually fail, unless you give a specific number its meaningless advice.
That’s not true in a home workshop. That’s for large machines running at high speeds with deep cuts. With those, the carbide can reach 1,500 degrees. If you intermittently add cooling, it could crack. In a home shop, that’s never a problem. Spray misting is fine and the occasional dap by a brush is fine too.
@@bosanaz2010the book is not old. It’s significantly updated every few years. The latest one I have is the 33rd edition and it came out around three years ago and another one is now coming out.
I work at a factory that does primarily plastics. For cutting plastic we exclusively run HSS and sharpen very regularly. He mentioned it briefly with acetal, but for cutting gummy plastics like HDPE and ot TPE/TPU, sharp HSS is king, and one of the only things that can actually break a chip
end mill sharpening services are a great alternative compared to buying new, both for HSS as well as carbide. sharpening costs between $5 and $15 here in the US (for 5mm to 16mm), and is usually done on CNC rigs. the end mills I get back from my sharpening service perform better than the original. This works for sharpening just the front, but also reworking the side flutes (in case of chippage, the diameter gets smaller), or just shortening the tool (which is fine in many cases)
You might look into recycling your carbide inserts as a consideration for your stockpile of used inserts. I believe that Sandvik and Kennametal (at the very least) have recycling programs to reduce the need for new raw materials all the time. This reduces the need for sourcing the limited stock of Tungsten/Tantalum/Titanium (depending on what type of carbide is being used) and (potentially more importantly, especially ethically) the need for extraction of cobalt.
Honestly, this is the best summary type video on the topic out there for the homeshopper, and I've seen a few. Just tooled up my 7x10 Sieg lathe following the same principles you mentioned, keep it up man!
Your gonna run carbides on a 7 x 10 lathe? I wouldn’t cut much more than plastics and light aluminum work with them. They love heavy loads to cut well and will destroy tool holders and posts and basically destroy little lathes. Make sure you buy the correct inserts for mini lathes.
I use carbide simply because I cant be f'd fluffing around grinding tools and setting tool heights each time. For special occasions, all good.
A big thing I have found is that using polished aluminium inserts on soft steel work mint. Similar to a really sharp HSS tool.
Thank you for a nice run through! I have to admit I haven't learned to know the differences, and make any much informed choices really. I'm 61, and when I started out with the occasional machining in my teens, there wasn't anything but HSS. And there was endless reading about how to grind the tools. Too much I think! It just daunted me into thinking I couldn't do it.
So when I returned to occasional machining after a 30-40 year hiatus, carbide tips just felt like a liberation factor! Kind of how people felt when "the pill" arrived. Much more joy and less worry.
I learned of solid carbide tooling by very lucky chance! I had these laser cut parts out of stainless steel, but the exact shape had to be experimentally found out. So I bought a small carbide cutter - not knowing what I did - and used it freehand in a Dremel tool, to carve out the exact shape. As if I was carving wood with a knife! That 3mm carbide endmill has earned it's place in the hall of fame!😄
A very old and experienced toolmaker just looked at me in awe, commenting, that would never have been possible with anything but solid carbide.
I think he considered my working methods exceptionally odd at times. But we taught each other things, and in the end we made a (my) patented idea also work in real life, and go into production. It was the perfect old meets new. (Unfortunately I could not afford to hire him permanently to serve his last years, as was suggested.) I bet that man could have hand ground a workable endmill! He did it with drillbits all the time!😀
I was taught how to hand grind drill bits by an old toolmaker enough years ago that the buildings we were in have been gone 3 decades. I agree with you about those old toolmakers being able to hand grind end mills.
"Choose the cutting tool that works for you" this is a secrete nod to "use what ever tools you can knock off from work"
The only thing I use HSS for on the lathe in my homeshop is for Forming Tools for everything else I use Carbide Inserts. Yeah they can be pricey but at long as you take care of them they'll last for quite a while and they just work, there's no dicking around having to regrind the cutting edge you just pop your tool holder in and you're good to go.
I run a HAAS VF5 and this video still helps a lot to get some basic info down, especially the face endmill you made. A lot of on the job "training" is just "do this, and hit the green button"
I don't currently own any hss tooling. Carbide lathe inserts are disposably cheap if you shop. Carbide milling end mills in sizes up to 5/16 can be had in specialty cutters that can handle hours in the cut of titanium or stainless and will cost from $5 to $15 per cutter if you shop hard. Small machines don't have a lot of rigidity so I only break out 1/2" and larger when rarely needed. The carbide even cheap carbide you can abuse the bottom of the mill and they last a while. Hss end mills in smaller sizes aren't cheaper than carbide.
Carbide for me is the clear winner especially w.r.t. the hardness of material that can be cut and the high feeds and speeds obtained.
Nice explaination!
I use a lot of inserts too on my lathe.
For my 'mill' that is still on my little Unimat SL with milling-plate... well I use carbide too, the small inserts that are cheap (like 3 $ for 5) for CNC's. That is mostly since that machine cannot work well with bigger tools.
About the old inserts: the other points can probably be used in a fly-cutter too. I'm also collecting them and probably use them for that at some time when I have a better miling-setup.
There is also the middle ground inbetween HSS and carbide inserts. Carbide blanks that can be ground the same way as HSS with the right wheel
Ya finger is looking better mate, good to see it healing well.
I've always thought it would be cool if someone made HSS inserts that would fit carbide insert holders. You could even make them from powdered HSS the same as carbide. Would be great for hobbyists.
High speed steel also has a lower cutting pressure. This is useful when chattering is a problem. High-speed Steel has saved my backside a few times now
An old carbide endmill got me out of a jam recently. I ordered some cabinet scrapers to finish a piece of high end furniture for a family member and I’d always heard that you can use a screwdriver to burnish the cutting edge but it was nowhere near hard enough. The carbide endmill made quick work of the job and I was able to get a really good shaving out of my scrapers.
Great idea. I bought a carbide burnisher from Lee Valley years ago before doing any metal work, but a worn out end mill glued into a piece of wood would be basically the same thing for free. I like it better than my old hardened steel burnisher because it doesn't rust.
most of my work is 6061, and I am using mostly the super sharp insert styles design for alu. i do occasionally stainless steel and regular steel, and those inserts work perfectly fine (may not have the longest service life). the interesting thing about the sharp carbide inserts is that you can re-hone them with a diamond stone, since the cutting edge geometry isn't that complex.
Great video, nothing conflicting to my experience. And a couple of things I never thought about.
When starting working in a machine shop in the seventies, carbide inserts was common. Before CNC machines existed. When started with CNC lathes in the eighties, only used inserts. Now a retired hobby machinist. Mostly same tooling as you use. But not sure if I prefer HSS or carbide for parting off in different materials.
I grind my broken carbide end mills for use as cutting tools on the lathe. For shaping i take the coarse diamond wheel and for sharpening a CBN.
About the consistency und surface finish from inserts. I worked at a cnc lathe shop and one of the machines turned pieces ofstainless steel hex bar down for some special bolts. Everything went fine (this machine then was one of the loudest of all while roughing the hex profile) until I changed the insert for a fresh one. After that, the surface finish was ruined and we spent the next one and a half days to find a solution (changing speeds & feeds, adding tail support, etc.).
I've found that those sharp polished aluminium inserts are great for getting a good surface finish in most steel. They do a great light finishing pass
Especially with bigger nose radiuses. I like to use them for critical finishes too.
I machine a fair bit of cast iron castings for my trains and these have chilled spots here and there which hss won't touch but the carbide us735 cuts it like butter, I do like hss but the inserts are so convenient.
another big consideration for the mill is spindle speed, for the "classical" mills like the one you have, you have the option to go HSS. On machines with the Chinese high speed spindles, like my Milo, you dont get that option as the HSS would basically burn up instantly, as the minimum RPM is at least like 12-15k..
Thanks for the video, good perspective.
I use both. A lot of carbide but my cut off tool is HSS and I do use the tangential tool holder with HSS too, both are quick to sharpen. I think my lathe may be more rigid that some of the small lathes though.
delrin/acetal can be sanded, and you can sand to a very fine grid affecting the surface finish
If your little machine can spin fast enough to match the surface speed profile, carbide makes perfect sense.
That said, you absolutely can put an extremely sharp edge onto carbide with diamond, either a wheel or even with plates, it just takes a LONG time, because if you go too fast it will likely chip at the micro level.
I'm always happy to come to a video that explains why you think a particular way is best, discusses the alternatives, and acknowledges that YMMV. So-called "influencers" who knows The One True Way are friggin' annoying
I guess button inserts on a fly cutter get around the interrupted cut issue because the shape of the insert means you get more of a "scissor" action at the edges of the part, rather than slamming the cutting edge flat into the side of the part.
Thanks for sharing our experiences
When you overheat HSS, I’d doesn’t lose its temper, it loses its hardness. To temper is to impart toughness , high temper = low hardness, high toughness . Cheers , good vid.
You have to take it to about 400-500c for it start to lose hardness and still remains my point. But you will change the other aspects of the temper too.
you can braze the broken ones on to sq stock and grind custom tools
Great information video. Enjoyed very much, cheers and thanks!
FYI you can buy HSS inserts but they are more expensive than carbide inserts.
You can get HSS inserts they are simple to re sharpen and ready to plug and play.
Carbide end mills are also best for those wanting to mill carbon fibre. HSS overheats and dulls very quickly in this scenario.
Sorry honey cant make it to your parents Artisan Makes just uploaded a new video
I know, right.
cobalt drills are pretty good to not as tough as carbide but still gets the job done
So, now if we have a Quorn T&C grinder or a look alike Chinese model, you can make/remake cutters with end profiles that are consistent as opposed to hand ground might work cutters for economy etc and carbide really does need to have good end profiles to ensure they are supported on the all important edge area.
I have a couple of facing cutters with 5 or 6 carbide inserts but the cost of replacing a set, as they seem to easily chip, and it's too much of a cost for most machining that can be done with solid carbide end mills and fly cutters.
May I offer a compromise try using 10% Cobalt tool bits and drills and end mills
I'm pretty good at sharpening drills, but I've never managed to get an end mill to cut well after resharpening. Square end makes it very difficult to polish one blade without touching the other and dulling it. I suppose I could try grinding one to a not-quite-square end for roughing, though. You can't really use them for finish work anyway since grinding material off the side-cutting blades means they no longer cut a proper vertical wall either.
You know that an endmill isnt really square? They are concave, so only the corner cuts, the middle should only cut when you dive into the workpiece.
Good use case, well laid out, thanks! 👍💪✌
Remember that carbide wants flood cooling or no cooling. Not a spray bottle manual squirting 😅
And for the end mills cutting at both sides when going straight is A BAD IDEA! that is a great way to break them like you showed in the video since it deflects one way and grabs then suddenly the other way, you should only cut at one side if you follow an existing track (like where you used it to make that treaded piece)
I’m not saying there’s no merit to it but I don’t see a reduction in tool life using intermittent cooling. It’s probably more an issue on large machines but ive always found intermittent cooling to be better than to let the carbide run dry. At least with prolonged cuts
@@artisanmakes intermittent cooling can seriously degrade lifetime - but that is when used in more industrial scenarios with very aggressive cuts and far higher working temperatures.
Any suggestions for milling off forge scale? I know its aggresive but would be such a timer and effort saver to be able to do it without the dusty mess of grinders
The big shell mill i have creates mirror finishes on the part but i bought it as it's near to impossible to make such a shell mill without it being unround.
Many thanks for your fantastic video like always. 👏👌🌹
Have two types of STGCR 1212H 11 holders with triangular 3 tip insert.
I would advise you to get a proper grinding wheel for the hss... you'll get more consistent results and less burnt tools...
My pet peeve with carbide is how easily they chip if you turn off the power whilst in the cut...
High positive raked HSS is great for reducing the HP required , important on a small lathe...
Nice vid !
😎👍☘️🍻
" if you turn off the power whilst in the cut... "
why would you do that other than in an emergency (where the cost of the insert is irrelevant to begin with) ?
@ABaumstumpf I'm not advocating turning off the power, I'm just showing the fragility of carbide compared to, say, HSS... reversing a spindle when threading with a carbide die might simulate it though...
Very interesting thanks. Crobalt is great on harder stuff, can be sharpened and does not need coolant. Eccentric Engineering sells it. Sort of a poor mans Carbide but deceptively effective especially in a Diamond tool holder
I use old inserts in my Vibratory Tumbler.
Indexable carbide tooling is the subscription service of tooling manufacturers. How many times can you sharpen a 3 inch long HSS turning tool? Unless youre only turning 4140 or hardened steel at high production volumes high speed tooling is cheaper in the long run.
cheaper in money or cheaper in time?
@@joansparky4439 Cheaper in money, a lot more expensive in time
Really interesting stuff indeed! Thanks a bunch, dude!!! 😃
But yeah, I guess I'm going to keep my hobbyist interests in wood for now. 😬
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
For the fly cutter, or othets, how about HSS inserts? 🤔
carbide inserts are cheap because they are being used so widely.. hss inserts - not so much. This is the result of economies of scale. Hobby carbide use rides on the coattails of CNC machinery needing this stuff.
Yes, the usual Artisan Makes style we like! But after that face revealing video don't forget to make another channel for housrwives where you do the hacksaw thing with oiled upper body and so 😂 because after my girlfriends saw it I think there is a demand to it
Carbide was invented back in 1936, so it wasn’t developed for CNC. Over the past decade or almost two, carbide inserts have gotten much sharper. That sharpness has been a major difference between HSS and carbide. I’ve found that most home shop people don’t know the difference between negative, neutral and positive rake. If you use a negative rake tool on small equipment, you will have a problem and that’s the reason why the bad press about carbide and small equipment. Use positive rake carbide tooling with the proper inserts and it’s a different world. You can even carefully hone a carbide insert, if you know what you’re doing. That can make a difference. Or buy cemented carbide bits. They’re like HSS tools and can be sharpened.
I think I was more so referring to carbide inserts.
I had a Quick Look back and I didn’t say it was developed for cnc. But it really is gears towards it or production environments in general.
Hi, why do you have a bolt screwed into the back of the cutter?
Carbide is best used on beefy machines that have the power needed to run the feeds and speeds that make it useful. I don't think it has anything to do with CNC vs manual. I guess you can call it a composite, because it is a combination of carbon and a metal, but what it really is, is a ceramic. Thanks for the video.
I’d say that there is at least a benefit to using it on a cnc because you can climb mill with them without much trouble. It’s not something I’d want to do with my carbide when I use them on the manual mill.
@@artisanmakes Sure, it is useful for CNC, it is not *just for CNC,* and certainly not designed for CNC.
In my incredibly limited experience, your success with climb cutting is down to experience, rigidity, and backlash.
Do you find that more expensive (non-chinese) inserts give better cutting results or last considerably longer?
Why don't they sell HSS inserts, so I don't have to grind them myself?
They do for lathes, you can by pre-ground HSS inserts. Look up accusize pre-ground inserts for lathe. I bought them when starting out so I had an idea of how to grind them.
What I mean is, the same size as carbide inserts CCMT, DCMT, etc. I looked at those and they're full length HSS tools pre-ground. About $50 a set. I guess kyocera makes some CCMT out of HSS, but they're more expensive than carbide. 🤯
carbide inserts are used in industry, hss not so much (anymore).. thus economies of scale give us "cheap" carbide inserts, but no hss inserts (for hobby machines).
@@devurandom2019 Search in woodworking tools, there you can find HSS inserts.
For CCMT or DCMT just use the grinded and polished carbide inserts for alu, they are as good as HSS
7:15 maybe I missed something in the past videos where it'd be apparent, but... Why does this tool has a cap head screw at the other end? 🤔
Looks like it has a rotatable end section so it hat the angle of the insert can be adjusted.
Man I think you are wrong about sharpening endmills.
You can usually get a 1/2" HSS end mill resharpened for like $5 or less, and carbide for around $10, a bit more if you want either coated (which you do). Granted they are rarely exactly 1/2" when they return, but they grind to a usable size, like .495. The size doesn't really matter though since you are cutting with either a DRO or measuring the part anyway.
In fact I buy reground endmills almost exclusively.
ebay job-lots are your friend for carbide tooling. I just picked up >100 6-16mm carbide endmills for ~£100 for the lot. most slightly used but all in good condition, brand names. lifetime supply. wish my minimill went a bit faster to take propper advantage of the smaller ones though.
I run my HSS drills at 60 sfm, compared to 500 sfm for solid carbide drills. I can normally also get a higher chip load with carbide. But that’s from a guy who runs a 30 foot diameter vertical lathe with live tooling
Aah - now we're talking a proper machine. I worked on one the same size back in the late 70's. Schiess Froriep @ Vickers Ruwolt in Richmond (now Ikea). Beautiful machine that could do fine work or major cuts. My most memorable was 25mm deep 3mm feed. Some times it would chip beautifully and other times (in the same cut) it wouldn't. Then you had 25x3mm bar coming straight off the tool.... Its weight would break it at about a bit over a metre long.
Thanks for sharing this information!
16:30 - rigidity of a machine became less important with more rpm. all you say applies well to a conventional mill with spindle speed up to 3000-6000rpm, but when you came to CNC territory its another story. HSS tooling is just doesn't work.
but with carbide even small 80-100kg "router" (which is nearly not as rigid as cast iron mill) will remove material much faster using HSM strategies.
An other type of lathe tooling that I like is brazed carbide blanks, they're really cheap and much like hss you just grind them to shape
I have those laying around, never used them. Can I use the regular wheelgrinder stones?
Great info man, thanks.
Make jewelry from the carbide that looks nice anyway. It's probably a dumb question, cant the carbide be resharpened with a diamond grinding disc? Just enough to get the edge back?
Carbide endmills and cutting tools can be if they’re just dulled and you have the right machine and jig to do it. But the economics of inserts makes it cheaper to replace them.
I notice you are going through quite a lot of DCMT/DCGT 070204 inserts ! All my bought insert tooling uses those inserts , but you only use the two sharp ends of those inserts ! I have made myself a few single insert cutters for the milling machine that use the other 2 corners on the inserts !
I strongly disagree on the insert selection:
Having more or fewer different inserts has basically no impact on the overall cost. If anything having more will be cheaper - use the right tool for the right job and it will either give a better result or last longer. The only cost increase is the one-time upfront cost of the very first batch you buy - as instead of 6 sets of insert you now have 20 sets of inserts.
Of course there is then also switching the tools - when using just 1 type of insert then you don't need to change anything, if you are using 3 different tools for the same job then you might get better tool-life and better parts, but you now have to also switch the tools.
Thats okay, you do what suits your set up and needs best. This suits my workflow best. I tend to save a bit more because I buy my inserts in bulk so I save a bit more just buying 2 or 3 types and getting 5 or so packs of them.
@@artisanmakes It is just a comment on the validity of the statement cause:
"so I save a bit more just buying 2 or 3 types and getting 5 or so packs of them."
That would not change the slightest with having more types. the cost would either stay the same or be lower.
But if your workflow does not benefit from that, or worse you would have to constantly change the tools, that is a different thing and makes using them not worth it for your workflow. But it would not be more expensivee.
@@ABaumstumpf I see a difference. with my wallet I use mainly DCMT, I can afford to buy them in bulk and get the discount. If I have the more different types that I use I can not justify buying bulk orders of 5 or 6 different types of inserts. I only get the discounts if I am buying many packs of the same specific insert. Maybe you see a difference, remember I am not a machinist, this is not my job so they way that i buy and order my tooling is structured so minimize costs and I do see a reduction in costs here. Your milage may vary
Gear Cutters i also only found as HSS there is no Carbide version.
There are also diffrent cutting edges like there are some that have little bumps that are more for roughing and interrupted cuts.
hm.. carbide gear hobs ARE a thing though. The cutters are 'hobby', thus no carbide?!
@@joansparky4439 I didn't see a carbide gearhob mostly hss with tin. I tough gears today are very often skived as that is less costly and faster.
@@platin2148 I only searched for carbide gear hob and results came up, while nothing for cutters.
As for power skiving vs hobbing - no idea.. I'm not from the trade. I'm just an engineer with a hobby-shop. ;-)
I have some SECO finishing inserts that call for 500-700m/min speed for steel. They leave a mirror finish in mild steel. That's 20-30 times more than HSS max speeds and HSS will never make a mirror finish in mild steel.
I used cheap Chinese inserts for years. Then I changed to branded inserts and would never go back. Sure they cost more, but if you choose the right brand it's not that much more. Kyocera is a good compromise.
You might get quite some return by asking the producers to take back the inserts. They can be recycled easily and the production cycle is very costly. If it was for recycling only, carbide inserts would cost a fraction and make them really affordable compared to HSS.
What make is your lathe
What happened with the audio? There's sounds that are left or right channel only
Hss and single crystal Carbide can be so sharp.
There's a big difference between korean and chinese carbide. Chinese carbide can be sharpened / ground, Korean carbide can be used to grind the grinder.
High speed steel is a huge scam. It stays still if left alone. Doesn't move at all, let alone at hight speed.
hi. ever thought of making a 3000 to 6000 grit diamond wheel. you can polish both types with one grit rpm..s in 1000 to 2500rmp.. works well . and you only have to touch the face and its done.. instead of grinding.. so much better and faster. evern on carbide.. tone U.K.
End Mills i buy HSS-PM or Carbide there is no normal HSS anymore it i can simply not work with it.
I do have insert end mills down to 6 mm
Well the quality cutter from Germany i have as HSS which i don't really use is 25 bucks.
Make me a dead blow hammer top and I’ll make you a nice rosewood and Ironbark handle. I’m Sydney 👌🏻
I prefer cobb-eyed too.
I'll admit the real reason I use carbide insert tools: because I'm lazy. Bolting on an insert that already has the perfect geometry and chip breaker is faster and easier than grinding hss blanks.
Nothing wrong with that, it’s half the reason why I do it. Cheers
very good
aluminium inserts since they are uncoated cannot run faster than 80% of what was recommanded for coated inserts(TiCN) or 40% of TiAlN coated inserts
i recommand 100m/min and only on small finishing cuts, they are too sharp to handle the heat compared to normal finishing steel carbides
and i mean 100m/min on 162HB C45, lower for higher HB
What is ass it all and how do I get some
Yay
24:45 "do what works
best for you with your machines and your
budget"...
holds up a piece of used sandpaper...
Lets play a game: take a shot every timer you hear "Inserts" :D
Interesting
Carbide over HSS.
Just get the right tooling.
For the algorithm.
You will never never be able to achieve the efficiency necessary to maximize carbide cutting tools can offer on a slow, (Low RPM 2000 and under) or low horsepower machines. It will not matter if you are using a mill or a lathe. High speed is normally used at 60 to 80 surface speed, carbide's normal range is between 300 and 1000 Surface speed, and much higher for aluminum.
A piece of 1" Diameter steel clamped in a lathe would need to run 4000 rpm to get to 1000 surface speed, that along with a constant stream of coolant would get you the most from a carbide insert. This is a real problem for most home shop machinist.
CNC machines do well because they are designed around carbide cutting process. TIGHT Environmental CONTROL, constant and variable spindle speed relative to the feed no matter diameter of the part or cutter.
The tools you show in your post are correct choice for light low horsepower machines, but even at that most of their cutting potential is lost.