Great info here, and the piece is a great showcase for the woodwind section. One thing I'd add is that pretty much all bass clarinets nowadays go down to at least a written Eb, with many professional models going down to a written low C, sounding the same low Bb that is the lowest note of the bassoon. Also, as a bassoonist I would suggest thinking of the bassoon as primarily as a tenor instrument that can play down into the bass range. The bass range of the bassoon is its loudest register and it is a very useful register, but it can sound a bit coarse and the lowest notes are hard to play quickly. The bass clarinet can often be a better bass instrument for the woodwind section since it has a beefier bass tone, and it frees up the bassoons to cover music in the tenor range, but if you don't have a bass clarinet then the bassoon is of course the best woodwind instrument to fulfill that bass role.
Good video, first half very useful for someone who don’t understand anything in orchestra and second was more interesting for people who already do some orchestral music. 👍 Respect for notes 🎶 For me it is more comfortable than to show just piano roll..
Thanks so much! I am just starting to get into composing my own music, and this is an amazing resource to have :) I am a string player, so woodwinds and brass have been a struggle for me to write, but this helped so much without being condescending or gatekeeping information like some other sources will. Many other things I have looked at gave very basic information and ended with "just get a theory teacher if you want to actually learn", so thank you for having a straightforward and highly informative resource available!
I played the clarinet in school and several other woodwind instruments. Just watched to see the take on it. About the breathing.... really none of the woodwinds need long periods or measures or any measure to breath. Breathing really becomes a thing when long held notes or lots of fast playing that may require breathing marks. The little commas that help know an appropriate time to take a breath, otherwise wood wind including brass players are trained to figure out periods when to take breaths without anyone noticing. So you can go nuts if you like with clarinets or wood winds.... oboists and bassoon players it's again with all wood wind, just don't tie a bunch of long whole notes over many measures and expect every player to just be able to sustain long notes forever without a breath... however, an illusion of this can be done via conductor just telling first and second and maybe 3rd and 4th players to mark out different breath markings so the notes are still sustained throughout a long period of tied whole notes, allowing each player to take a breath while other players continue to hold the notes; giving each player a chance to breath. Certain fingering between certain notes can be difficult on some instruments... but again wood winds are accustom to practice all sorts of motion between whatever notes to another. As a clarinetist my biggest weakness was heavily chromatic notation... but again, we can learn the piece no matter how chromatic. Rusty or new players it might take a few stabs to get it down if you right to chromatically or go through many chromatic markings. An expert woodwind player generally shouldn't have any problems with anything. Another difficulty for intermediate or new players is not sounding like they're slurring up or down when it's not notated... slurring is easy for wood winds. What's not easy is normal interval, or staccato, particularly if up a scale or arpeggios. New players generally tend to have issues with tonguing the reed to not sound slurred or to sound overly staccato.... so newbies may have some difficulty playing non slurred and very quick arpeggios or scales; without it often coming out as sounding slurred when they play them. Experts or even intermediates have no problems at all taking whatever direction a composer has to offer; so long as it fits on their scale of the instrument of course. New players and even intermediate players on clarinet have difficulty playing the highest notes without them sounding horrid. Newbies often fumble and squeak at the high notes. Low notes, at least I found, and I think most clarinet players, find the easiest. Middle range to near high range not too hard... the extreme top of the range becomes a challenge for the first 2 years of playing. Just a little depth on writing music if you're considering doing it for various skilled players.
Another awesome video. Love it. I was never into orchestral music until 5-6 years ago… my obsession with my new found love keeps driving me towards channels like yours. From now on it’s gonna be my go to…… Thanks for doing such awesome videos.
Great presentation. These section overviews have been a great help for me to understand how to work with the instruments. I am wondering if you could share your ideas on how to use what you call flourish or ornaments - these little runs, stabs etc. by various instruments - kind of how to garnish your melody orchestration. Thanks for your work!
This is wonderful!!! Would you please please consider doing a series of videos going more into depth on winds??? Like many aspiring composers, Winds are my weakness instrument section.
@@composingacademy8270 Thanks for responding. It might be the way I'm doing it but I find saxophones more troublesome than other woodwinds. Or it could be the VST samples I use - they sound great as solos but terrible when combined with each other. All the best and thanks again.
I like how you go over how you wrote the woodwind section of your piece. I have a question though, does any of this besides the registers and the rests for breathing apply to woodwind quartet writing? Just thought I'd ask since I am composing a piece for a woodwind quartet of Flute, Oboe, Clarinet, and Bassoon.
The way I approach it is that I have four options for my lead instrument, and then a limited palette of accompaniment that can be provided for any one of those. Sometimes I can't get the lead I want with the support I want, especially if I wanted a bassoon lead. Clarinet is roughly analogous to viola in a string quartet, so the problems are roughly comparable to wanting a cello solo but not having anyone to back them up. Aside from practical considerations like that, this is my approach. I pick my lead for any given moment, then I figure out how I want to accompany that lead and distribute parts accordingly. If I can have someone lay out entirely for a bit, that's another good way to very quickly change the texture. Each instrument has its own character and can be tracked by the listener, which is _unlike_ the string quartet, so rather than having to go to the bag of tricks (pizzicato strings for example), you can change the texture simply by who's out front, and perhaps who isn't playing at all. Within your quartet, you have four different trios, so whenever you can live with just a trio in terms of harmonic content and volume, consider dropping someone out and exploring one or more of the four trios. The drop-outs don't have to be very long, they could even be individual notes.
As a clarinet and bassoon player, I appreciate that you mention our need to breathe. I would point out that, in general, woodwind players are not old asthmatics and can play more than a couple of bars at a time. I wouldn't change a thing about what you wrote here, as the short passages are what the music called for - bits of color. In extended passages, just pay attention to the music and phrasing and create a spot to breathe every so often. A rest here and there works nicely, as does a longer note that the instrumentalist can cut a bit short for a quick breath.
Thank you so much for your feedback and pointers - yes I sometimes find it tricky knowing exactly how long of a phrase a competent player would be able to play in one breath. It can be very easy to forget about that when writing with samples all the time!
@@composingacademy8270 An overly simplified test is that if you can hum the part in one breath, a competent wind player can play it in one breath. A skilled amateur can probably go 20 seconds or more, a good professional can get to 30 seconds and beyond. Loud dynamics drop that time, quiet ones may extend it. Even when working with samples, it adds a bit of realism if there are phrasing breaks where a real wind player would breathe. So it's not a bad thing to consider in those compositions as well. And it's not wrong to do superhuman things with samples, either. Just depends on the goals of the composition.
i had no clue about "transposing instruments". ive always wondered why my orchestral VST has "Bb Clarinet" and whether i should be choosing that as "normal clarinet". i've also wondered why copy&paste notes from one instrument to another sometimes sounds "wrong". so what's the deal: due to historical tradition we're just supposed to know about this, and tweak the written notes so that they sound correct? bizarre
the composer for a level 4 piece in my high school band needs to see this... im the only oboe (i started 2 months ago too) and i have 40 (60 if you dont count 3 rests) measures of 50 bpm with like 3 solos 😭 idfk how im holding on edit: they also only give 2 breath marks and there are 7 measure slurred parts 😀
It's a great question, some find it too loud, brash & does not coincide well with other instruments, it is predominantly known for jazz over classical pieces. I personally love the saxophone (my wife used to play) but it still isn't something you see in an orchestra regularly.
Most traditional orchestral literature was composed before the saxophone was invented, and the new instrument came to be used in wind bands. A few romantic composers used it sometimes as a solo instrument, but it wasn’t used enough to become a regular part of the orchestra. I personally like the saxophone in my orchestrations, but it will take a long time for the saxophone to come into more use in orchestras - outside of jazz & pop, of course. There’s a tradition that says instruments were used in opera orchestras before making their way into the symphony, but I cannot think of a single example of the sax in opera (but I’m no opera expert!).
Hi, thank you for the comment, apologies for the delay in response. The woodwinds I use the most are Berlin Woodwinds by Orchestral Tools & for the strings it is Cinematic Studio Strings. Hope that helps!
I would quite like to know how one would use woodwinds outside of a full orchestral arrangement. For example I have a song where piano plays chords, upright bass covering the lows, pizzicato strings doubling up on the rhythm . Then a flute playing the main melody and oboe harmonising under that and clarinet doing a counter melody. I know there is probably no rules for use this way but some guide lines may be helpful to make sure I am filling the space.
It would depend on the articulations that are included with the sample library you are using. If it doesn't, you could play in/write in a rapid alternation between the original note and the note immediately above it. I hope that helps!
Have been asked this a lot recently for some of my other videos as well. I will do this soon, I am currently completing & launching my new course but I will then try and get the midi files setup. Thank you for watching!
What a fantastic piece of music, here! And further more, you are also excellent at explaining what you are doing to others, which is another rare skill to have! Thank you so much, Simon!
It's absolutely criminal how few views this quality video is getting. Thank you lots for this, looking forward to more videos!!
Haha thank you! I'm over the moon with the amount of views its getting already - hopefully the channel will grow even further in the coming months!
@@composingacademy8270 but I agree. This is a really good lesson!! Thank you a lot!!
Agree, this feels like an actual class in a big film scoring school, I'm so glad there's easy access to this information for all aspiring composers.
Great info here, and the piece is a great showcase for the woodwind section. One thing I'd add is that pretty much all bass clarinets nowadays go down to at least a written Eb, with many professional models going down to a written low C, sounding the same low Bb that is the lowest note of the bassoon. Also, as a bassoonist I would suggest thinking of the bassoon as primarily as a tenor instrument that can play down into the bass range. The bass range of the bassoon is its loudest register and it is a very useful register, but it can sound a bit coarse and the lowest notes are hard to play quickly. The bass clarinet can often be a better bass instrument for the woodwind section since it has a beefier bass tone, and it frees up the bassoons to cover music in the tenor range, but if you don't have a bass clarinet then the bassoon is of course the best woodwind instrument to fulfill that bass role.
Thank you for the advice.
Good video, first half very useful for someone who don’t understand anything in orchestra and second was more interesting for people who already do some orchestral music. 👍
Respect for notes 🎶
For me it is more comfortable than to show just piano roll..
Thanks so much! I am just starting to get into composing my own music, and this is an amazing resource to have :) I am a string player, so woodwinds and brass have been a struggle for me to write, but this helped so much without being condescending or gatekeeping information like some other sources will. Many other things I have looked at gave very basic information and ended with "just get a theory teacher if you want to actually learn", so thank you for having a straightforward and highly informative resource available!
Wow, thank you for that positive feedback, really pleased you have found this video useful. Happy composing!
I played the clarinet in school and several other woodwind instruments. Just watched to see the take on it.
About the breathing.... really none of the woodwinds need long periods or measures or any measure to breath.
Breathing really becomes a thing when long held notes or lots of fast playing that may require breathing marks.
The little commas that help know an appropriate time to take a breath, otherwise wood wind including brass players are trained to figure out periods when to take breaths without anyone noticing.
So you can go nuts if you like with clarinets or wood winds.... oboists and bassoon players it's again with all wood wind, just don't tie a bunch of long whole notes over many measures and expect every player to just be able to sustain long notes forever without a breath... however, an illusion of this can be done via conductor just telling first and second and maybe 3rd and 4th players to mark out different breath markings so the notes are still sustained throughout a long period of tied whole notes, allowing each player to take a breath while other players continue to hold the notes; giving each player a chance to breath.
Certain fingering between certain notes can be difficult on some instruments... but again wood winds are accustom to practice all sorts of motion between whatever notes to another.
As a clarinetist my biggest weakness was heavily chromatic notation... but again, we can learn the piece no matter how chromatic.
Rusty or new players it might take a few stabs to get it down if you right to chromatically or go through many chromatic markings.
An expert woodwind player generally shouldn't have any problems with anything.
Another difficulty for intermediate or new players is not sounding like they're slurring up or down when it's not notated... slurring is easy for wood winds. What's not easy is normal interval, or staccato, particularly if up a scale or arpeggios.
New players generally tend to have issues with tonguing the reed to not sound slurred or to sound overly staccato.... so newbies may have some difficulty playing non slurred and very quick arpeggios or scales; without it often coming out as sounding slurred when they play them. Experts or even intermediates have no problems at all taking whatever direction a composer has to offer; so long as it fits on their scale of the instrument of course.
New players and even intermediate players on clarinet have difficulty playing the highest notes without them sounding horrid. Newbies often fumble and squeak at the high notes.
Low notes, at least I found, and I think most clarinet players, find the easiest. Middle range to near high range not too hard... the extreme top of the range becomes a challenge for the first 2 years of playing.
Just a little depth on writing music if you're considering doing it for various skilled players.
Hi, thank you for sharing this to the community!
Another awesome video. Love it. I was never into orchestral music until 5-6 years ago… my obsession with my new found love keeps driving me towards channels like yours. From now on it’s gonna be my go to…… Thanks for doing such awesome videos.
Thank you so much for the feedback, it means a lot. I am so pleased you have found my channel useful!
Thanks man! I already improved so much in one week❤
Another superb presentation!
Great presentation. These section overviews have been a great help for me to understand how to work with the instruments. I am wondering if you could share your ideas on how to use what you call flourish or ornaments - these little runs, stabs etc. by various instruments - kind of how to garnish your melody orchestration. Thanks for your work!
Thanks for watching! A great idea-I'll try to collate my thoughts on how to use these flourishes and put together a video in the near future!
This was helpful thank you ❤
Hoping this channel grows! Would be nice to have the MIDI available for study
Thanks for watching! Yes I'm planning on setting up a file hosting system so I can share the midi and DAW files in the future......
This is wonderful!!! Would you please please consider doing a series of videos going more into depth on winds??? Like many aspiring composers, Winds are my weakness instrument section.
Great video, this whole series is so good!
Thank you so much!
@@composingacademy8270 you're welcome!
Its worth noting that the Basoon can have much the same effect as a barritone saxophone when written low.
Hi John, thanks for sharing this tip!
The piano roll examples helped a lot. Thank you!
So pleased you found it useful, appreciate the comment thank you!
Clarinets, oboes and bassoons: our auxiliaries all are lower than the normal instrument
Flutes: Haha piccolo go squeak
There is alto flute, though. It's not the most common request but it can be a very nice sound. And clarinets have eefers.
@@mal2ksc yeah i just meant the most common auxiliary for each instrument
Thank you. Your videos are beautifully clear and well produced. Some of the best on YT and also a paid course I have done.
Wow, thank you so much for your kind words!
Great video! Many thanks! Curious to know what strings you're using for this piece?
It was mostly Chamber Strings by Spitfire Audio, with a real string Quartet blended into the mix as well
This channel is a real find!
Really appreciate that, thank you.
Thank you SO much
You're welcome! Thank you for watching!
I absolutely love this video! It’s helped me understand a lot!
Hi, I am so pleased, thank you for watching!
Very nice. I wonder if you have anything about writing for sax quartet or quintet?
Thank you! I'll admit that I don't have much experience for writing for Saxophones, so I'm not sure I would be the best person!
@@composingacademy8270 Thanks for responding. It might be the way I'm doing it but I find saxophones more troublesome than other woodwinds. Or it could be the VST samples I use - they sound great as solos but terrible when combined with each other. All the best and thanks again.
Great video as always! Helpful and interesting to watch and learn from. Looking forward to the rest of the series!! :)
Thanks for watching- I'm glad it proved useful!
Smashed it again!
Cheers!
Superb quality video, thank you. Best wishes from Argentina
Thank you so much! Glad you liked!
You're an immaculate teacher. Thank you so much for these lessons!
Hi Andrija, thanks so much for your kind words - I hope you found the lessons useful!
Thanks a lot for your vids! It's just impressive and understandable! I have found a lot of useful theory and practice! Just love it!
Thanks so much - I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I like how you go over how you wrote the woodwind section of your piece. I have a question though, does any of this besides the registers and the rests for breathing apply to woodwind quartet writing? Just thought I'd ask since I am composing a piece for a woodwind quartet of Flute, Oboe, Clarinet, and Bassoon.
Use all of the instruments ranges, eg don’t keep the bassoon on low notes
The way I approach it is that I have four options for my lead instrument, and then a limited palette of accompaniment that can be provided for any one of those. Sometimes I can't get the lead I want with the support I want, especially if I wanted a bassoon lead. Clarinet is roughly analogous to viola in a string quartet, so the problems are roughly comparable to wanting a cello solo but not having anyone to back them up. Aside from practical considerations like that, this is my approach. I pick my lead for any given moment, then I figure out how I want to accompany that lead and distribute parts accordingly. If I can have someone lay out entirely for a bit, that's another good way to very quickly change the texture. Each instrument has its own character and can be tracked by the listener, which is _unlike_ the string quartet, so rather than having to go to the bag of tricks (pizzicato strings for example), you can change the texture simply by who's out front, and perhaps who isn't playing at all.
Within your quartet, you have four different trios, so whenever you can live with just a trio in terms of harmonic content and volume, consider dropping someone out and exploring one or more of the four trios. The drop-outs don't have to be very long, they could even be individual notes.
As a clarinet and bassoon player, I appreciate that you mention our need to breathe. I would point out that, in general, woodwind players are not old asthmatics and can play more than a couple of bars at a time. I wouldn't change a thing about what you wrote here, as the short passages are what the music called for - bits of color. In extended passages, just pay attention to the music and phrasing and create a spot to breathe every so often. A rest here and there works nicely, as does a longer note that the instrumentalist can cut a bit short for a quick breath.
Thank you so much for your feedback and pointers - yes I sometimes find it tricky knowing exactly how long of a phrase a competent player would be able to play in one breath. It can be very easy to forget about that when writing with samples all the time!
@@composingacademy8270 An overly simplified test is that if you can hum the part in one breath, a competent wind player can play it in one breath. A skilled amateur can probably go 20 seconds or more, a good professional can get to 30 seconds and beyond. Loud dynamics drop that time, quiet ones may extend it.
Even when working with samples, it adds a bit of realism if there are phrasing breaks where a real wind player would breathe. So it's not a bad thing to consider in those compositions as well. And it's not wrong to do superhuman things with samples, either. Just depends on the goals of the composition.
Geat channel and content sir.
Thank you so much!
Thanks a lot for giving so much tips and ideas I could add into my new song
My pleasure - I hope you can use the tips in your composing!
Underrated channel
Thank you!
Those re great looking studio monitors
Haha yes they are Quested Monitors and are my pride and joy! 😀
Nice video sir
Mr. Simon, as a former opera musician I really like your work. Congrats.
Fantastic! Great tips! Thank you so much for sharing this!
Thank you, I really appreciate it!
Love this pieces and video, thanks!
Thanks for watching!
Excellent.
Thanks!
What is this piece called? Also I remember this piece being used in one of Grian's videos and that's where I recognized this piece from
i had no clue about "transposing instruments". ive always wondered why my orchestral VST has "Bb Clarinet" and whether i should be choosing that as "normal clarinet". i've also wondered why copy&paste notes from one instrument to another sometimes sounds "wrong". so what's the deal: due to historical tradition we're just supposed to know about this, and tweak the written notes so that they sound correct? bizarre
Fantastic video. What a great piece you'd written too. 👏 🌷
Thank you for your kind words and for watching!
Thanks so much for all your work
what composiing program does he use?
Why am i getting Home alone chase vibes while listening 2 the final piece?
the composer for a level 4 piece in my high school band needs to see this... im the only oboe (i started 2 months ago too) and i have 40 (60 if you dont count 3 rests) measures of 50 bpm with like 3 solos 😭 idfk how im holding on
edit: they also only give 2 breath marks and there are 7 measure slurred parts 😀
Just one question, can you help explain why the saxophones don't really play in orchestras?
It's a great question, some find it too loud, brash & does not coincide well with other instruments, it is predominantly known for jazz over classical pieces. I personally love the saxophone (my wife used to play) but it still isn't something you see in an orchestra regularly.
Most traditional orchestral literature was composed before the saxophone was invented, and the new instrument came to be used in wind bands. A few romantic composers used it sometimes as a solo instrument, but it wasn’t used enough to become a regular part of the orchestra. I personally like the saxophone in my orchestrations, but it will take a long time for the saxophone to come into more use in orchestras - outside of jazz & pop, of course. There’s a tradition that says instruments were used in opera orchestras before making their way into the symphony, but I cannot think of a single example of the sax in opera (but I’m no opera expert!).
Thanks so much for this video!!!!
What vsts do you use to get the best woodwinds and string section sounds?
Got any samples you could share?
Hi, thank you for the comment, apologies for the delay in response. The woodwinds I use the most are Berlin Woodwinds by Orchestral Tools & for the strings it is Cinematic Studio Strings. Hope that helps!
@@composingacademy8270 thank you so much for the feedback!
You've got a subscriber for life!❤️
A lot of the highest notes can be exceeded with weird fingerings on woodwinds; there isnt much of a “top note” like piano or something
The problem I am having is that I can come up with a melody but where to place my different instruments to put in play
What happened to your brass video??
I would quite like to know how one would use woodwinds outside of a full orchestral arrangement. For example I have a song where piano plays chords, upright bass covering the lows, pizzicato strings doubling up on the rhythm . Then a flute playing the main melody and oboe harmonising under that and clarinet doing a counter melody. I know there is probably no rules for use this way but some guide lines may be helpful to make sure I am filling the space.
I really sad I cannot follow these lessons, for foreigners not native-eng-language is quite difficult follow, not eve with subtitles
I am sorry you are having difficulty, I do try to speak as clearly as possible. I apologise that the subtitles haven't worked for you either.
I thoroughly enjoyed this, and as an aside, it sounds lit it would fit perfectly if dropped into the Fable series of games.
I am so pleased you enjoyed it, thank you for watching and your comment!
Thanks for this content, Simon.
You are very welcome, thank you for watching!
that comedy piece is so beautiful. thanks.
I appreciate it, thank you!
Rip saxes
I wish you could indicate each colour coded register on the stave.
Thanks for the feedback, will look into this going forward!
Perfect materials for passionates again.
Thank you.
10:02 How can I use Pralltriller in the media?
Is it possible in Logic?
It would depend on the articulations that are included with the sample library you are using. If it doesn't, you could play in/write in a rapid alternation between the original note and the note immediately above it. I hope that helps!
@@composingacademy8270 Thank you so much. I didn't even think about taking turns taking notes. Thank you so much for always being helpful. teacher
Thank you very much. These videos are help me.
Glad you like them!
Top content!! Infotainment level!
Thank you! Really appreciate it!
Thanks , Love it ! :)
Thanks so much!
can we get the midi somewhere?
Have been asked this a lot recently for some of my other videos as well. I will do this soon, I am currently completing & launching my new course but I will then try and get the midi files setup. Thank you for watching!
Amazing channel🙏
Thank you! Another video being released today!
Next wishes is writing for a piano and for a chromatic percussions :)
Great idea - I've added it to my video list!
What a fantastic piece of music, here! And further more, you are also excellent at explaining what you are doing to others, which is another rare skill to have! Thank you so much, Simon!
You're welcome and thank you so much for the positive feedback, I really appreciate it!
I come here to learn from you but also to listen to your music. You're very talented.
Hi, really appreciate that, thank you.
These videos are great! Thank you so much
Appreciate it, thank you.