Why ALL non-stick pans will wear out: I spoke with a Polymer Chemist
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- Опубліковано 29 тра 2024
- For years I've been talking out about how wasteful non-stick pans are and how users unnecessarily throw away millions and millions of used pans, but I hadn't backed up my statements with science, until now. This week I spoke with a Doctor of Polymer Chemistry, Dr. Zac Hudson of the University of British Columbia, and we covered the use of fat vs oil and what is the best for seasoning cast iron and carbon steel, based on science. We even go over the controversial topic of seasoning with olive oil! As an added bonus (do we really need one?) he clearly lays out the hidden damage to us and our oceans of microplastics being a byproduct of using all types of coated pans.
Dr Hudson has his own UA-cam video about the importance and future of Chemistry: • Video
Thank you to Dr Hudson for his time and effort to convey this important information. - Навчання та стиль
Great video to explain the science behind the seasoning of cast iron.
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I inherited my grandmothers non stick pans, have been using them for the past 6 years. My grandmother used them for about 10+ years. I watched a review video on nonstick cookware only to find out its only good to use that cookware for 2-3 years and can release toxic chemicals into your food if it wears bad enough... i ran into my kitchen and checked all my pans and they were all in bad condition. I was devastated to learn ive been putting myself at risk. I only have cast iron, carbon steel, stainless steel, and glass for all my cooking because they can last generations and will always be safe!
It took me so long to realize this! I kept thinking I was just not buying high enough quality non-stick (mostly ceramic). Finally I realized no matter how high-end, they're going to die on me. I had issues with the non-stick properties of my cast iron, but I finally realized it was because I was often cooking with tomatoes and wines in it. I stopped doing that, and it now is seasoned quite nicely!
This is awesome. Great news. Good on you for taking the time to understand the process.
It’s great to hear someone talk scientifically about seasoning!
Wow, I took a lot organic chemistry and biochemistry class in grad school, and I work with chemical structures for my job regularly, and I love to cook and am always trying new pans, trying different seasoning methods, etc., but this video, this guy, Dr. Hudson, really brings it all home. He is correct on everything, as a matter of chemistry, but leads his observations to useful information about life in your kitchen. This is such a great video. Thanks!
That's awesome! Glad you liked it
This answers a lot of question I had. Although you’ve been preaching this to us for a while now, it’s still great to have it reiterated with science! Because I was going to ask what you thought of Caraway pots since they have no PFOA or PTFE or other sister materials in them. But I’ve learned from you and other people that it all comes down to the length of time of use. When I contacted Caraway, they said I could send their pan back to them if the coating wore out down the road for recycling but they currently don’t re-coat the pans. I guess it’s time to learn how to season forever-in-collection pans ;) Thank you for sharing your knowledge~
All good. Thanks for investing the time to get develop a long-term view. Whatever the promise of brands like Caraway, the reality is that they are made to be disposable cookware and will breakdown while you use them, depositing microparticles in you and our waterways.
Great video on the ecological issue allthough I wish he could have also commented on the personal health impact from using polymerized oil as coating:
1. Does it contain carcinogenic free radicals that can leach into the food?
2. Will using flames directly on the coating (eg. during normal use on a gas stove) create toxic fumes from burned polymerization?
My non-stick pans blew out and so I've been researching what I should do. Turns out, I've got some of Grandma's old cast iron pans in a box, and I'm cleaning them up and going to start using them. So there environment, this set of pans being useful for a second generation.
You made my day! I sell cookware for a living but I would much rather hear a story like yours than sell more into the market. Let your Grandma's cookware live on!!
@@Cook-Culture Thank you for putting this video together. My grandmother's pans would still be in a box if not for this, and I'm glad it helped make your day!
Great message, thank you
This video is just brilliant! The most informative, scientifically based discussion I’ve found anywhere on these topics. Thank you for putting this out!
Glad it was helpful!
One of the best videos on the topic I’ve seen! Thanks to both of you for the solid explanation.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Another example of wood abrading metal: woodworking tools. You have to keep sharpening them because even a few strokes of a very sharp plane iron or a chisel will cause it to dull and soon to become hard to use and require further sharpening.
That’s a much better example than water running over stone, since the tools dull so quickly.
Thank you for providing an expert matter professor. Love your videos incredibly informative and educational straight and to the point.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks
Very informative, thank you.
Thanks to you & Dr Hudson for the very informative video. Just ordered a Field #8. . .
Thanks! You'll LOVE it!
Good info. Thanks...
I recommend going to flea markets and antique malls to find cookwear. I got this amazing cast iron pancake pan that is probably 40+ years old. It was $7 and after a very quick clean and just freshening up the seasoning it performs beautifully. Gave it to my brother as a gift.
Awesome!!
Some love from germany here. :-) Really like your videos and your approach of not even selling non-stick crap anymore. (Even if it kind of hurts your business in the short term I suppose).
We nearly got a "Thermomix" -> instead got 4 beautiful pieces from Le Creuset and are really happy with them and we use them nearly every day.
Then I learned here, that I can even try and season them although it's Enamelled Cast Iron. I just HAVE to try it - just wasn't able to get around to it with a small child.
Thank you for all the great information!
Thanks! Yes, when we first got rid of nonstick cookware, bakeware, and electricals it was a big hit but we have somewhat recovered by offering a decent selection of carbon steel and cast iron. Hopefully, you get your Thermomix one day but I think you made a wise decision on the Le Creuset!!
great video, I wish we would all listen to experts like this, the earth would ve a cleaner, better place
Yes, one pan at a time!
All oils used in the kitchen will oxidize at elevated temperature and this will make them satisfactorily reactive bond to bond to a metal pan, even a stainless pan and build what you could call a varnish surface layer. Think about tung oil and linseed oils applied to wood which eventually harden into a protective coating on wood. Except this occurs much faster at the temperatures used to season pans.
But the bond strength does depend on the reactivity of the metal surface as well as its surface texture. Stainless has enough relatively inert chrome and nickel and is smooth polished and thus the attachment is not particularly long lasting. Iron and steel are much better and will furthermore develop a black iron oxide layer that aids attachment. Cast iron is well known for microporosity that further anchors the seasoning layer. I notice many carbon steel pans come with a black oxide and/or phosphated or nitro carbonized mat surface which also anchors.
All Teflon comes out of the reactor as a very fine powder. This alone can be compacted into a soft mass with about the strength of a bar of ivory soap. But when "sintered" in a high temperature oven, usable integrity and strength are developed. However, Teflon can't practically be applied to a metal pan this way - and strength and wear resistance are still inadequate for cook pans.
Instead, the Teflon reactor powder is formulated with various binders, carriers, fillers and solvents into a coating that can be sprayed on and thermally set. Fillers like mica dust, various ground minerals, metal flake and even diamond dust are incorporated specifically to improve wear and scratch resistance. The binders help it adhere to the filler and the pan surface itself. Sometimes a primer coating is involved. Aluminum is normally given a thick anodized surface. The overall result is what you cook on. And there is a recent concern that estrogen mimics can leach from this surface. In any case, Teflon, in the presence of alkali and sodium at high temperature will eventually lose non-stick properties. For example, frying onions with a little salt will more quickly kill your Teflon. Interestingly, frying onions in oil with a little salt will help build a seasoning on carbon steel and cast iron. And potato skins add minerals that help quickly build an effective seasoning layer ... akin to varnish.
Thank you !!
You're welcome!
an excellent video! still, i wonder how much extra water, soap, and energy to dry and re-season the safer pans, since i have to scrub and re-season with almost every use--except for the stainless which require the scrubbing and polishing (for me) but no re-seasoning. these safer pans usually require more oil when cooking as well. i realize my technique probably needs a lot of work, but suspect others are in the same boat. i'm not ready to throw away non-stick, but use them very sparingly, with no plans for replacement.
I have wondered about this as well, but when you think about it the steady-state scenario you are already cooking with the pan, so at most you are keeping a burner on for maybe an extra minute to do the post-seasoning? If you use electric or induction you beat a gas user with non-stick for sure due to the efficiency.
Non-stick cookware also requires washing with soap & water. Less scrubbing for sure, but that doesn't mean you use less water. I usually add some water and then scrub, but most of the time that isn't necessary even on my cheap lodge. If stuff does stick and you have seasoning the burned food can just flake right off with a bit more cook time. I have a hell of a time making Just egg in my less-seasoned pans, but even here when it sticks I can easily scrape it out as a few large pieces when I'm done. In my well-seasoned pan if I have it a bit too hot the burned/deeply fried layer just brushes out like a true non-stick pan.
I think the huge amount of energy and water and other chemicals and materials needed to refine or recycle the metal would take quite a few stovetop reseasonings to catch up to. And all the reseasonings in the winter are basically free (I write as I soak in the warmth from my just-seasoned pans and oven). Also, the impact of the toxic processes used to create and apply non-stick coatings should be a consideration. If not energy-wise, their impact in waste products and microplastic forever pollution.
But I have been trying to improve my stainless steel chops to avoid cooking things that may damage my cast iron seasoning.
hello, thank you for all the informative videos.
What is the best pan to cook tomato sauce/without getting the metal into our food?
Another question: how to buy the field pan while based in the UK? Many thanks
Hi, thanks. If you have a really well-seasoned pan you can cook with acidic foods. Field is looking at the best way to support UK customers. You can check their website: fieldcompany.com/
@@Cook-Culture This brings me to a good question, can ALUMINUM finish be adequately seasoned as to reduce the health risks associated to it?
I believe the greatest aluminum exposure from these natural finish pans may be from scrubbing the soft metal, generating silt-like alumina dust, which is VERY hard to remove (& nearly imperceptable), and roughens the surface, making for more surface area (from texture) for alumina to cling to & more aluminum surface for food to react to..
I have to say I love my All Clad style cookware, but my heavy gauge aluminim is all teflon nonstick.. I have some beautiful skillets, but am wary now, even though I use them only for low temp cooking, ie eggs or single serve sauces..
I think electric coil burners caused hotspots in iron based pans as pans got lighter, & that nonstick saved immediate sticking & cleaning workload, while delivering more sales revenue in long term.. oh, I prefer the more durable goods!
Really informational videos, I love learning more! Thank you for your service to those of us like me who know so much, but still need & desire to learn so much more!
Thank You
You're welcome
Often the simple answer is the best. My thinking has been reset from the typical marketing hype. Forever pans forward. Thanks!
Thanks for the comment!!
Very good video! however, only thing not discussed is whether washing cast iron/carbon steel pans with soap affects the coating or not. Maybe this is a whole subject for a new video? Cheers!
Those polymer 'brushes' sticking out of the coating the prof. spoke about are oil soluble. Dish washing soaps dissolve these (albeit quite slowly with handwashing formulations). This is why people say wash with water.
The water actually helps the poly. layers stay on the pan. It is less attractive to those oily brushes so they dont want to dissolve off into it and flop back down and compact on the pan instead. Making more layers of coating. Ingenious really. With soap, they will likely be broken down and will definitely want to dissolve into the soap/water solution becasue of the lower surface tension that the soap promotes.
But if you wash with soaps you can always reseason. Over time the polymers will oxidise anyway and need regenerating even if they were never scraped off. Of course it is impossible to 'never' scrape them off. Even the lightest cooking agitation with oil (not water) facilitates this required regenerative process. It is a win win.
Except the iron, aldehydes are also produced and some acrolien I understand. But these are not as harmful as the iron. They are volatile resulting in generally tolerable concentrations in the food. In addition, these compounds are easier to metabolise and excrete at low concentrations... Iron is not and builds up over time in men and post menopausal women.
Great video. Same with furniture. Buy it to last. Only thing with iron or steel is the extra iron that it puts into our food. Okay for children and premenopausal women, but not okay for men generally speaking. Another good choice is unglazed stoneware. Though most people don't like the patina (and the price). In that respect it generally has less of an heirloom quality than iron or steel right now.
The main issue I have with cast iron pans is that they rust very easily in Puerto Rico even while making sure it’s completely dried out after each use. Places with high humidity make it really difficult to maintain cast iron. Any other suggestions, whether a different material pan or better maintenance tips?
After you've cleaned your cast iron after use, dry with paper or cloth towels, then put back on the hob set at about 200- 250 F to evaporate any remaining moisture, then give a very light wipe with grapeseed (or similar seed) oil over all surfaces while the pan is still hot to the touch.
If high humidity can't get past that fine coat of grapeseed in Panama, it isn't going to get past it in Puerto Rico.
We have them in Cuba that is the same weather as Puerto Rico, and don't have this problem. Do you soak them? Or leave them were they are not protected from rain, or dont oil them after use? All those things can be conducive to rust. A fairly kept cas iron should not rust in any weather.
I have a few carbon steel de buyer pans. I like them. I often cook meat with a wine sauce, but after that the seasoning is almost gone. What would you recommend? Thank you
I would suggest if you're cooking this way all the time then use stainless steel. A quality seasoning can only take so much acid before it breaks down. If you were to cook with wine once in a while then your pans (with a hard seasoning) may be fine.
What is the relationship between heat and polymerization? Do you have to exceed the smoke point or does the oil polymerize below if tou just give it enough time? (Meaning, do you really need to burn the oil to get the coating)
No, it's a fine balance of heat and time. You really don't need to make a lot, or much, smoke. Just a whisper.
Can I cook with avocado oil in a cast iron, carbon steel or Teflon pan? Sometimes I use med to high heat for my Asian cooking.
Thank you always!!!! ❤️
It's best to cook using fat without fibre on iron cookware
What’s your opinion of Le Crueset enameled cast iron? Thanks
It's world class. I prefer Staub but only slightly due to the very small differences.
Ok, not healthy for the environment, that makes sense. But what‘s healthier for us? Isn‘t it that the polymer from the „natural coating“ and burned residues will eventually leak into the food at some point? E.g. when acids are involved?
Yes, the polymerized coated can certainly break down.
Does seasoning work with aluminum pans as well as with iron ones?
I have a video on stainless steel, and yes, this works for cast
The oil with the highest ratio of unsaturated fat would be linseed/flaxseed oil. It has a low smoke point though.
What is your favorite carbon steel pan and the easiest to season? Thank you
Hi, my favourite carbon steel is de Buyer Mineral B. As for seasoning, they are all relatively easy when you know how to do it, so that comes down to the user and the amount of effort that is invested to learn the process.
hi, thank you for the rep. right away, I seasoned all my cast irons but never tried carbon steel. Right now I’m waiting for my mineral b to be delivered and I don’t know which method of seasoning I should use. I like the way you used the oven method and that probably I would use.
I'm surprised that after explaining the molecular differences between plant-sourced oils and animal-based fats, that he recommended using plant oils. I have tried both in long-term cooking, and found butter to be much better than plant oils. Plant oils do darken my carbon steel pans much more; and.butter only leaves a translucent dark brown coating. But the plant oils seem to get carbon build-up much more faster, whereas butter doesn't at all. I also love the waxy, teflon-like seasoning that butter builds up rather than the 'stickier' feel of plant oil seasoning; and I also like the butter flavor in my foods too.
Maybe you can do a video about this? Try cooking long-term with butter, lard, tallow, etc in one pan and grapeseed, etc in another. See what kind of seasoning builds up in each pan: how they look, how each attracts or repels carbon build-up, how easy or hard each are to clean and maintain, how the foods taste after cooking, and so forth? Thanks.
BTW, I suspect that the reason why plant oils darken more as it seasons is because more loose carbon molecules are attracted to the C=C bonds he talks about. The reason why I can only get a 'translucent' dark-brown seasoning using butter is because less carbon molecules are attracted to the C=C bonds in animal fat. So wouldn't it be better to use animal fats than plant oils for seasoning? To get a better non-stick surface, wouldn't you want **less** molecular "fingers" attracting other molecules? It's opposite to Zac's logic and reasoning.
Done and done. I have not purchased a “non stick” pan since 2010. I don’t intend to start now.
Nice science
Thanks for this amazing and *actually scientific* explanation of cast iron seasoning from an *actual* expert. It has been frustrating to sift through all the anecdotes and misinformation in seasoning to just get an honest explanation of what it is and how to make it.
We really need to force manufacturers or consumers of non-stick pans to pay for the cost of disposal and recycling of their pans they know will be used up in two years. They should pay for all research and efforts in cleanup of forever chemicals. This externalization of costs breaks capitalism. That cheap non-stick is a lie.
I understand that but unfortunately it's not going to happen. What is happening is laws are being passed that will makes a huge difference. Change is coming.
@@Cook-Culture Hopefully they are passed soon enough. Fighting wasteful consumerism *should* be something both the left and right can agree upon.
Hey, while I have you here, what would you recommend as the next piece in my collection? I have Lodge 6, 8, 10.5, and 12" skillets and one probably-too-thin tri-ply Calphalon 10" pan I got at an outlet store (the handle is heavy enough it lifts the pan a few mm if it is empty). I was thinking of getting into carbon steel, but not sure which size would be good for my first piece. I mostly cook for myself, and don't eat meat or eggs (but plenty of tofu scramble).
And if you twist my arm I would love to have any reason to pick up a new piece of cast iron ;)
OK, instead of consuming bits of teflon you will be consuming bits of polymerized oil. Doesn’t sound like a healthy swap.
Thanks,I'm all into this polymerization method. I've always used flaxseed oil with good results,but wanted to try your suggestion of grape seed oil. I kind of get a slightly sticky feel to it..not dry and smooth as with flaxseed oil..
Any idea what I might be doing wrong?!
Thanks for an entertaining and educational channel!
Thanks! I'd say that if you're having good results with flaxseed then stick with it. Technically it's a better seasoning oil but some people find that it has a smell/taste so I suggest grapeseed because of its neutral flavour. You may never find that grapeseed will harden as well as flax.
If I had to guess I'd say too much oil. You should wipe the oil off until you think you've wiped too much off. Then you should grab a clean paper towel and wipe it down again. The best way I heard it described was "wipe the oil off like it was something you applied by mistake." Seriously. If you're using the oven method you won't need to place a sheet pan on the bottom rack to catch drips and there is almost no smoke. The last time I seasoned two pans in the oven this way my wife asked me what I was cooking.
@@Cook-Culture Ok,thanks,then I'll stick to flaxseed oil!
@@yertelt5570 Thanks for your input! The thing is that this is exactly how I do it. Been doing it for years..with flaxseed oil..
I'll try again just for fun :)!
@@semesterkatten and are you using a high enough temp when seasoning w/ grapeseed oil?
At 7:24 you say Rapeseed Oil is better than Olive Oil???? Whaaat? Where did you get that research?
PFOA hasn't been used in making nonstick pans for like the last 8 years.
Also, the rock analogy isn't terribly compelling, tbh.
This is 3 years old. Today, in mid 2024, we are being told that microplastics are a huge danger to our health if we consume them. Studies are showing that analysis of cholesterol plaque removed from blood vessels is showing that many times these plaques contain microplastics that make them larger and more deadly than cholesterol only. The recommendation is not to use nonstick pans of any kind because the microplastics that come off of the finish get into our food and can eventually lodge in the tissue that lines our blood vessels, eventually narrowing them. (Also, don’t store food in plastic containers ever. Good luck with that! Can anyone get out of a grocery store today without buying anything contained in plastic?)
In addition, everyone is now warned not to cook with or consume seed oils of any kind. Acceptable fats for cooking are butter, lard, ghee, avocado oil, and olive oil.
My nonstick skillet is starting to stick, so I guess we’ve eaten a lot of bad chemicals. Throwing it away and pulling out Grandma’s cast iron cookware again. My main objection to it is that it’s heavy. And that it’s not so pretty. Grandma never washed it with anything but water for decades.
Would love any scientific input on this situation.
But can't you technically season a nonstick pan? My mom has been using the same nonstick forever and I noticed she built up a good amount of seasoning on it.
Hi, not technically but you can season almost anything once it's hot.
finally a nerd video on this topic. not like other videos on UA-cam that soley focus on cooking
Dont saturated fats have higher smoke points and unsaturated fats have lower smoke points? So isnt it a contradiction to say you should use unsaturated fats and fats with a high smoke point?
Hi, the Doc was quite clear that unsaturated has a lower smoke point than unsaturated.
@@Cook-Culture Thats not being very clear to be honest xD
@@jeffreylebowski4927 He explains it in fine detail in the video....?
@@Cook-Culture hehe I was teasing because you wrote unsaturated fats both times in your previous comment. - Like i said the way I understood it the doctor said to use a high smoke point, unsaturated fat - i was under the impression than unsaturated fats have low smoke points because theyre more reactive and saturated fats have higher smoke points - so a high smoke point low saturated fat seems like a contradiction to me - however Im sure its because of my ignoracne which is why I was asking the question.
@@jeffreylebowski4927 Ah! Good question though, but yes, he's quite clear on how it works and why certain oils are better than others
Non-stick pans are one of the most stupid inventions ever. To make it last, you cannot use high heat. That's like buying a car and not driving over 10 mph because the engine will wear out.
Well put.
Why TF should I pay any attention to a so called expert who keeps admitting that he doesn't know the facts and is only speculating based on general knowledge.Pointless!!!!
What happens if you use rancid oil??? The sun will break down Teflon given enough time!
We’ve all been eating food cooked in non-stick pans since the 1960’s. Our life expectancies have increased greatly since then. Some really dangerous stuff, eh?
Keep doing what you're doing then.
🤷♀️I’ve already wasted time & money on a carbon steel pan. It’s much easier to buy a teflon pan and replace it as necessary.🤷♀️