Details... The fact is that without Satchmo this record would have been forgotten and rightly so. It is relatively mediocre, Louis saved a lot of it by his solo interventions and with Fletcher (at the beginning anyway) also because the level and the titles were not much better than this recording reproduced here. Good orchestras in the 20's but also terrible ones, fortunately quality soloists 'saved' them.
First of all, thank you for your detailed comments! I think about this in the social context in which it was created: dance orchestras at this time had to fill large ballrooms every night to satisfy their considerably large payroll. That means that in addition to hot soloists, they also needed some popular tunes and "crowd pleasers" in their repertoire. I can see this tune being a hit on the dance floor in 1925. You are right that without Satch, this record would be a standard dance band arrangement that may not have a lot of "jazz interest" as Brian Rust might say. That said - the Henderson band in particular is a great example of a jazz/dance band that could play it hot, sweet, or both ways at once (Goldkette's orchestra is another). They had to manage their own artistic aspirations with the very real demands on a popular NYC dance orchestra. It's too easy to look back and say that Satch was the only thing the Henderson band of 1925 had going for it. Listen to pre-Armstrong sides like "Gouge of Armor Avenue" and you'll hear the Henderson band were no slouches when it came to hot solos! Charlie Green and Coleman Hawkins could dish it out!
@@JazzCrazy Thank you for your very pertinent answer. We agree on the fact that these orchestras had to play everything. Concerning Henderson I also share your opinion, before Armstrong there were also good soloists but few. Such as Howard Scott and especially Joe Smith who came back later making some shade to Armstrong. That said, there are good titles but they are learned by characters who are relatively full of themselves. Hawk was still nothing at the time, he evolved only under the influence of Armstrong, Redman neither but he wrote arrangements. Here the choice of titles for the sessions is very uneven and even these soloists could not do anything. Satchmo, besides his interventions, modified the sound of the whole orchestra, and that is important. The other frontmen were soloists and that's all. As for 'Gouge of Armor Avenue' it is a stolen or borrowed theme by WC Handy, hence the quality. But a lot of others are undrinkable, learned, and the goal was to remake Paul Whiteman, says Henderson. Goldkette ok, but it's another thing, the soloists are less famous, but the arrangements and the compositions are much better than those of Fletcher's orchestra and it was generally at the end of the 20s, with Bix in particular. That's my opinion, but I like the 'old Fletcher 1923-1924' too in general. Pleasure to correspond with someone who knows and loves this period, rare nowadays, too bad.
@@joelaffolter2392 Yes - good conversation about a rarified realm of musical knowledge. I've got a few other early gems from the Armstrong period of the Henderson band that I'll have to post in the coming weeks.
I have to disagree with your conclusion that this band is the Fletcher Henderson Orchestra. It sounds too much like Sam Lanin's group - and obvious white musicians are playing, with a white vocalist - not to be. With, of course, the exception of the unmistakable Louis Armstrong solo towards the end. It most definitely is him playing. Sam Lanin would go on through the second half of the 1920s inviting a number of jazz musicians to sit in on recording dates. You'll find others, such as Bix & Tram, Red Nichols, and even Bing Crosby. In addition, Armstrong himself during the mid 1920s would record with other bands and labels, even when he was under exclusive contact. This record, and the other from the same recording session, is a Sam Lanin band with Louis Armstrong included.
Thanks for your comment - I was hoping someone might offer a counterpoint! 🙂 I’ll start by saying this is probably one of those questions in jazz history that we will never definitively know the answer to. Don Redman claimed it was the full Henderson band under his arrangement. Armstrong told discographer Brian Rust that he never recorded with Lanin. Lanin himself also confirmed there were never any Henderson-Lanin collaborations in the studio. That said, many of these interviews were done 15-20 years after the recording session, so must be taken with a grain of salt. For reference, I got the above info from Hendersonia by Walter Allen p. 493.
Details...
The fact is that without Satchmo this record would have been forgotten and rightly so.
It is relatively mediocre, Louis saved a lot of it by his solo interventions and with Fletcher (at the beginning anyway) also because the level and the titles were not much better than this recording reproduced here.
Good orchestras in the 20's but also terrible ones, fortunately quality soloists 'saved' them.
First of all, thank you for your detailed comments!
I think about this in the social context in which it was created: dance orchestras at this time had to fill large ballrooms every night to satisfy their considerably large payroll. That means that in addition to hot soloists, they also needed some popular tunes and "crowd pleasers" in their repertoire. I can see this tune being a hit on the dance floor in 1925.
You are right that without Satch, this record would be a standard dance band arrangement that may not have a lot of "jazz interest" as Brian Rust might say. That said - the Henderson band in particular is a great example of a jazz/dance band that could play it hot, sweet, or both ways at once (Goldkette's orchestra is another). They had to manage their own artistic aspirations with the very real demands on a popular NYC dance orchestra.
It's too easy to look back and say that Satch was the only thing the Henderson band of 1925 had going for it. Listen to pre-Armstrong sides like "Gouge of Armor Avenue" and you'll hear the Henderson band were no slouches when it came to hot solos! Charlie Green and Coleman Hawkins could dish it out!
@@JazzCrazy Thank you for your very pertinent answer.
We agree on the fact that these orchestras had to play everything.
Concerning Henderson I also share your opinion, before Armstrong there were also good soloists but few. Such as Howard Scott and especially Joe Smith who came back later making some shade to Armstrong.
That said, there are good titles but they are learned by characters who are relatively full of themselves. Hawk was still nothing at the time, he evolved only under the influence of Armstrong, Redman neither but he wrote arrangements.
Here the choice of titles for the sessions is very uneven and even these soloists could not do anything.
Satchmo, besides his interventions, modified the sound of the whole orchestra, and that is important. The other frontmen were soloists and that's all.
As for 'Gouge of Armor Avenue' it is a stolen or borrowed theme by WC Handy, hence the quality. But a lot of others are undrinkable, learned, and the goal was to remake Paul Whiteman, says Henderson.
Goldkette ok, but it's another thing, the soloists are less famous, but the arrangements and the compositions are much better than those of Fletcher's orchestra and it was generally at the end of the 20s, with Bix in particular.
That's my opinion, but I like the 'old Fletcher 1923-1924' too in general.
Pleasure to correspond with someone who knows and loves this period, rare nowadays, too bad.
@@joelaffolter2392 Yes - good conversation about a rarified realm of musical knowledge. I've got a few other early gems from the Armstrong period of the Henderson band that I'll have to post in the coming weeks.
I have to disagree with your conclusion that this band is the Fletcher Henderson Orchestra. It sounds too much like Sam Lanin's group - and obvious white musicians are playing, with a white vocalist - not to be. With, of course, the exception of the unmistakable Louis Armstrong solo towards the end. It most definitely is him playing. Sam Lanin would go on through the second half of the 1920s inviting a number of jazz musicians to sit in on recording dates. You'll find others, such as Bix & Tram, Red Nichols, and even Bing Crosby. In addition, Armstrong himself during the mid 1920s would record with other bands and labels, even when he was under exclusive contact. This record, and the other from the same recording session, is a Sam Lanin band with Louis Armstrong included.
Thanks for your comment - I was hoping someone might offer a counterpoint! 🙂
I’ll start by saying this is probably one of those questions in jazz history that we will never definitively know the answer to.
Don Redman claimed it was the full Henderson band under his arrangement. Armstrong told discographer Brian Rust that he never recorded with Lanin. Lanin himself also confirmed there were never any Henderson-Lanin collaborations in the studio. That said, many of these interviews were done 15-20 years after the recording session, so must be taken with a grain of salt. For reference, I got the above info from Hendersonia by Walter Allen p. 493.