This might be the only video one needs; after knowing the absolute basics, that is. This has all the info necessary to master the art of backhand after the walk up. Nicely done!
So glad you made this video. I follow you, Josh, and Seabass. I've been thinking a lot about this topic since Josh uploaded his video on arming the disc. You're explanations here are very helpful. Keeping the arm loose from the elbow down makes sense to me. I'm also glad you talked about the latest Seabass video. I don't think you talk to much. You explain the reasons for what you teach. Everything you say is meaningful. Please keep them coming.
Thanks for putting your take on this. To be fair to ODG, they have over 40 mins of good content out there on brace and coil. I don’t think ODG is now claiming that good form is now all about the arm and nothing but the arm - just in case anyone was reading that into Josh’s message. My take on reading all of ODGs content is that once you have good posture/brace/coil, then just go ahead and unleash that throwing arm while keeping other parts of your body relatively quiet. Its definitely worth discussing, and it’s great to hear everyone’s opinion on this. To me, it’s still a great unsolved mystery what exactly happens after the brace to cause the disc to fly out of someone’s hand at 80mph. Looking forward to more clues.
As a fellow youtuber it's really frustrating when people accuse you of omitting info. The info you have put out there for a year and then in that one video you focused on the, say, wrist and all of a sudden you get comments like "Okay, so Spin Doc is now claiming you only throw with the wrist, ooookayyy".
Josh's Brace stuff never stood out to me. Hula drill is great. And that seemed like and extension of twirly bird 1 and the box drill, which are both excellent drills. I'll have to go back and watch his brace stuff again now that I have my own understanding of it... Anything you like in particular?
@@dgspindoctorYep. I got some flack for using progressions at all rather than covering a finished throw. People didn't understand I was building parts of the whole, kept saying 'but thats not a finished throw!' ... I know... thats the point... Can't win em all.
I'm not sure that modelling our throwing patterns after David Wiggins is the best method simply because David's form is geared towards max distance only. I propose that his method is actually detrimental to accuracy which is proven by his lack of success on the tour. Fundamentally I believe this comes from the inherent variability of his process which he has had decades to refine. Most of us are too late in the game to take this approach. Instead I propose education model Calvin's form which has been proven to produce MUCH more consistent results on regular golf lines. There is a subtle but fundamental difference in how Calvin positions and progresses thru a throw to achieve this. DM me if you'd like to chat and poke holes in my theory. Great work as usual.
Thank you!! I've never felt like I really get a good brace. I just recently found Leon Sonnleitner's videos on form - keeping the arm loose and focusing on pushing the front hip back. Finally, the brace made sense. Josh even talks about Leon's form in his "Don't Engage the Hips" video. Then Josh completely confused me with the arm-the-disc thing, which seemed to go against Leon's loose arm. I think your explanation about keeping it loose from the elbow down makes much more sense and seems to reconcile these two approaches. Now it's off to the course for some field work!
Thank you for watching, glad it helped! Leons feel vs real on the arm thing is a real issue. If you were to numb up his throwing shoulder and have him throw, he would collapse his shoulder a ton. He FEELS like he is not using his arm, but that is because he knows timing very well and activates his shoulder muscles just the right amount to keep the shoulder from collapsing. The shoulder IS active. For anyone who is not totally collapsing the shoulder. But yea, I think Josh's take on it is a bit confusing. But we do agree on what is happening mechanically, just have different ideas about how to coach it best.
Josh’s video is specifically for people who make the mental mistake of thinking of the throw as a chain from the ground up. Which is what I was doing. That video literally took me from 400 to 430 overnight. Few better feeling things in the world than finding breakthrough new distance.
Interesting, I dont think he defines the audience as such. Did I miss that? I also wouldn't define that as a mistake, rather a fact. How can you argue against the idea that any force in sports where people are standing on the ground always comes from the ground up? Have you tried throwing a disc standing on ice? Ground force matters. I feel like I mentioned in the video that 'arm the disc' is a functional cue sometimes for some people. And in those instances this idea will get you more distance. I also mentioned at the beginning that I totally agree that is how pro players think and what they do on power shots. Really curious what you think about the ground force thing... Thanks for the comment! Glad Josh's video got you some extra distance.
I think that Josh is in it for shock factor now. And I like Josh but I feel like he is lost at this point in time in his "UA-cam coaching." When you say that starting from the ground up is wrong, I'm sorry but that's a serious take that needs a little more care before sending it out to the masses.
This could simply be a timing cue that Josh is getting a lot of people in the right position but it's not backed by what's actually going on. I think Owen does a good job of really pointing out why that arm/elbow ends up out in front. Josh is great for giving people the right cues to help them for sure. Glad you found some extra distance.
yeah agree, and his video of arming the disc, the shoulder are just straight, i think that is hurting the elbow, argue is good tho. that is how we learn, btw if you look at baseball or golf its the hips, but they need to be turn at the sametime, 180 degree on shoulder and 22 - 45 degrees on hips. also the trebushet sling is says static is best, this need to be tested out and compared.
@@lsu2012tigers Ok I think we got out talkie wires crossed and are not actually disagreeing. "When you say that starting from the ground up is wrong, I'm sorry but that's a serious take that needs a little more care before sending it out to the masses." I DO think all forces come from the ground up. You too right? Starting from the ground up is right.
I generally agree with your assessment. You explained it much better then I could and I watched Josh's video twice. My initial thought was getting the arm in a poor position related to the trunk is a recipe for arm injuries.
I have not seen injury from poor arm position. Shoulder injury from over muscling is totally possible as is elbow issues from throwing hard forehands wrong... Thanks for the comment!
I started experimenting with this after seeing Josh's video and having worked with everything else it certainly opened up some new venues of improvement. And I came to the same conclusion that the key to arming the disc correctly is to have the rest of the body mechanics in place. In particular the "knee behind the leg" is important, otherwise it just leads to rounding and barn doors. One thing I noticed though, if I start with the hips (the double move, sensu slingshot disc golf), i.e. collapse the shoulders first to load the kinetic chain and then open it, the timing and accuracy improved a lot (was easier to "arm it"). There is never one single thing that makes or brakes the throw, its a combination of so many different technical details what makes the disc golf throw so hard to learn for those it does not come naturally for (like me).
Totally. I think there are 8 or 9 places to generate power and you only really have to have two of them nailed down and working really well together to get pretty solid distance. Not everything has to be perfect. I also found alot more success when I started using a slingshot cue of bouncing off the reachback position and letting the rear arm be more active. But now I feel like those cues are best used as a layer on top of a solid contained brace and good hip mechanics.
I really like what you laid out in this video. I think you did a great job explaining where the tension needs to be for an explosive throw. Keeping the shoulder tense and elbow and wrist relaxed until the hit unlocked 400' for me. The one thought you had that didn't make complete sense to me is the section about Wiggins. I always thought the axis of rotation had to be along the spine or else you'd generate some pretty high forces on your spine. Your axis seemed to be the path that the ground forces travel through the body
Some players the axis of rotation is absolutely the spine, that is visually clear sometimes. Sometimes its more right hip to right shoulder and that gets trickier to see. So its partly body type dependent, partly motion dependent, and partly feel vs real and we would need good motion capture data to be sure what the heck is actually happening. I'm mostly just explaining my way of thinking of it, may not be strictly 'true' but I feel it does help build a functional model of the throw that can help you learn to execute. Also the axis isnt static, things move around during the throw... its not as easy as we want it to be!
I wish more pros would elaborate on their form when it comes to how much tension/ looseness is involved. They almost always say the same “elbow the door and plant perpendicular”.
Me too. But pro’s may not be the answer. In my limited experience and what Ive heard from others being a pro doesnt mean you have any capacity to explain what you feel or do in a way that is useful. Some players do and that great, but the majority seem to have not developed coaching skills at the same rate they have developed skills that help them perform well. Or you get the opposite with folks like Leon (who has generally great content) saying they think their arm is dead loose, which is demonstrably inaccurate (at least in most players).
So elbow the door is their swing though (when asked) but their body know what is ‘good tension’ and what is ‘bad tension’ and they automatically dont use the bad kind anymore.
Yea, but me an Josh don't actually disagree on anything mechanically... Just how it should be talked about / coached... pretty sure we are on the same page about what actually happens.
Several years ago Paige Pierce said she imagines herself breaking down a door with her right elbow, hard as she can, and the door is located exactly at the same place her aim point is located. I don't recall if she also said keep the forearm loose. Great content, as always. Talk more, not less. Everyone teaching can do stuff; it's the words that disabuse us of our delusions about what we imagine we're doing. Analysis of mechanics always built on a skeleton of moving elements (aka bones or a literal skeleton) is schematic compared to the fleshy complexity of an actual body in motion. Reduction of meta-conceptions is usually helpful and you do an excellent job of stripping away flesh, I mean unnecessary layers that tend to hide the mechanics. When you say hip and shoulders start at the same time, could you please explicitly define when off arm downward movement begins in relation to brace foot contact with the tee pad? Adding this downward off arm movement is crashing my drive timing, but I can't really find any top pro who doesn't plunge their off arm to initiate their forward whip these days. It's the standard now.
I feel like I remember that video... Thanks for the kind words! Off arm timing relative to brace foot: its kinda a feel thing. I cant so much tell you exactly when it starts... thats a hard instant to pinpoint in such an organic elliptical movement too. But if I saw video of your throw I could tell you if it seemed early or late to me. The one timing thing I can feel that I think would translate to everyone is that the downward motion of your hand should hit its peak low point right before the disc rips out. I dont think about the off arm as initiating whip (Trent from slingshot does, in my understanding) I think of the off arm as shooting down towards the brace foot to help establish a firm hyzer tilted axis in the spine and rear leg counterweight. Not the only way to throw, just what I find most powerful and efficient.
Terminal right before the disc rips out, i.e. later than I've been doing; thank you. Your more explicit purpose for the off arm being--in terms of overall structure before and after, so to speak--to establish and support the hyzer spinal "axle," now braced on two roughly orthogonal axes, gives the movement a formally enumerated ballet sense on its way to becoming solidly built trebuchet scaffolding. It also provides more of that containment of movement and so momentum you and Josh talk about, yes? Seems to me the style you teach will lend itself to consistency without mandatory daily practice because so many parts are sort of terminal, meaning they happen definitively instead of intuitively. The movement and position tasks you assign are clear and typically sharp, aided of course with sticks and sticks with ropes taped to them. I finally understand the mountain of trouble a long last stride offers. Worth learning to live without it and with a healthy ACL.@@_TDG
Ha! Yes, seems we are on the same page. yea I like the idea of building a solid frame and throwing from that. The frame helps consistency a TON! @@bretbowman2007
I've done so much experimenting with form, I should have been shooting videos of myself but I found something that unlocked noticeable distance and accuracy. In my x-step if I rose my body up some and then STOMPED my plant foot down just as I started my rotation I found much more power. You need good leg strength for this. I just figured it was as if I was getting more traction on the ground as the foundation for my rotation. I mean, if I was in zero gravity, how would I get my body to turn to create a throw? It has to start with that one point at maximum pressure. The more you're trying to accelerate a disc within the unchanging distance of a swing, the more force you need and that force (equal and opposite) needs that much more of an anchor.
Yes! Rising up a bit on the initial step, in order to float over the x step, then have more ground force on the plant, is a great cue and something I am working on integrating in to my throw.
Hand needs to be faster than left shoulder. That is the whole point of what Josh is teaching and it’s based on Coach Crish Taylors studies on Wiggins form where his hand is twice as fast as his shoulders. If youre hand/disc in sync with your left elbow, that is your speed limiter. If you can separate the movement from left shoulder movement, you are able to pass the speed limiter.
I just want to pass along the concerns some people like myself have with Josh's video, that Owen is commenting on here. "Arming the disc" is bad advice. It can be used as a cue to correct too little arm involvement for certain individuals, but a better cue would be language that isn't open for misinterpretation. And to be blunt - "arming the disc" is pretty explicitly bad advice when taken literally or colloquially. Even people who taught passive use of the arm when throwing expect the hand to rotate and accelerate faster than the shoulders. "Use the arm more" is probably one of a few better phrasings of a cue that would fix a problem of the arm doing too little in the swing. 🙂
But the hand will always move faster than the shoulders as it travels longer in the same time. If you hold arms straight out from your shoulders and rotate the shoulders then the hands will move alot faster...
Yea, arming the disc is bad cue for people still trying to paas 200-300 feet or so. Some people might think arming means you got to squeeze you muscles super hard. Humerus doesnt move much without scapulohumeral rhytm so you need to corporate you’re whole body. But intention getting the hand move faster got me places.
i think ODG teaches bad form and habits, its good as a very preliminary starter for beginners but if you want to throw far then the concepts that TDG and disc golf spin doctor provide are totally different than the overthrow videos and actually work
I think Josh’s box drill, twirly bird 1, and hula drill are some of the best ways to feel out some elements of the throw. So I wouldnt say he teaches bad habits. What major differences standout to you?
Tbh... I don't listen to anything from OTD. Trying to pull 1:1 mechanics from a 360 throw to a walk up does not make a lick of sense. There are fundamental differences in power generation, as one has rotational momentum in play, the other doesn't. And I do agree. Understanding what you can do with the arm is more of an advanced technique. Coach Trent has mentioned similar. Makes complete sense as well.. once you've baked into muscle memory good form shoulder down, it frees up mental capacity to focus on your arm and the hit... and I bet this is where advanced players are able to manipulate the throw, with things such as launch trajectory, nose angles, tilt, spin, etc.
OTD = Overthrow? If so, I actually think the vast majority of his info is solid and he has done a ton for DG coaching. I disagree that there are fundamental differences between a walk up and a 360. The brace mechanism is exactly the same. You are just throwing more rotational momentum at it in a 360, it is still converting all the linear momentum (or as much as possible) into rotation.
This might be the only video one needs; after knowing the absolute basics, that is. This has all the info necessary to master the art of backhand after the walk up. Nicely done!
Wow. I have no words for how awesome that is to hear, especially coming from you!
Thank you so much.
So when are you 2 making a joint video?
You don't talk too much. If you did I wouldn't watch every second of your video or even half of it. This is great content!
So glad you made this video. I follow you, Josh, and Seabass. I've been thinking a lot about this topic since Josh uploaded his video on arming the disc. You're explanations here are very helpful. Keeping the arm loose from the elbow down makes sense to me. I'm also glad you talked about the latest Seabass video.
I don't think you talk to much. You explain the reasons for what you teach. Everything you say is meaningful.
Please keep them coming.
Thanks!
Thanks for putting your take on this. To be fair to ODG, they have over 40 mins of good content out there on brace and coil. I don’t think ODG is now claiming that good form is now all about the arm and nothing but the arm - just in case anyone was reading that into Josh’s message. My take on reading all of ODGs content is that once you have good posture/brace/coil, then just go ahead and unleash that throwing arm while keeping other parts of your body relatively quiet. Its definitely worth discussing, and it’s great to hear everyone’s opinion on this. To me, it’s still a great unsolved mystery what exactly happens after the brace to cause the disc to fly out of someone’s hand at 80mph. Looking forward to more clues.
As a fellow youtuber it's really frustrating when people accuse you of omitting info. The info you have put out there for a year and then in that one video you focused on the, say, wrist and all of a sudden you get comments like "Okay, so Spin Doc is now claiming you only throw with the wrist, ooookayyy".
Josh's Brace stuff never stood out to me. Hula drill is great. And that seemed like and extension of twirly bird 1 and the box drill, which are both excellent drills. I'll have to go back and watch his brace stuff again now that I have my own understanding of it... Anything you like in particular?
@@dgspindoctorYep. I got some flack for using progressions at all rather than covering a finished throw. People didn't understand I was building parts of the whole, kept saying 'but thats not a finished throw!'
... I know... thats the point...
Can't win em all.
By far my favorite instructional videos are by you, love the way you go into detail and give cues and explanations on why things happen
Awesome, thanks!
I love finding videos from people I respect that re-enforce stuff that I am releasing on my channel. This is fantastic! And all 100% true.
Same! Awesome, thank you! Ill check out your stuff!
@@_TDG I reference your 90° arm drill in one of my videos. I used that one a lot in my arm path development.
I'm not sure that modelling our throwing patterns after David Wiggins is the best method simply because David's form is geared towards max distance only. I propose that his method is actually detrimental to accuracy which is proven by his lack of success on the tour. Fundamentally I believe this comes from the inherent variability of his process which he has had decades to refine. Most of us are too late in the game to take this approach. Instead I propose education model Calvin's form which has been proven to produce MUCH more consistent results on regular golf lines. There is a subtle but fundamental difference in how Calvin positions and progresses thru a throw to achieve this. DM me if you'd like to chat and poke holes in my theory.
Great work as usual.
This is hands down the best explanation of the backhand throw I’ve ever seen, and I watch A LOT of backhand form videos 😂 thank you for sharing sir!
Agreed
Thank you!! I've never felt like I really get a good brace. I just recently found Leon Sonnleitner's videos on form - keeping the arm loose and focusing on pushing the front hip back. Finally, the brace made sense. Josh even talks about Leon's form in his "Don't Engage the Hips" video. Then Josh completely confused me with the arm-the-disc thing, which seemed to go against Leon's loose arm. I think your explanation about keeping it loose from the elbow down makes much more sense and seems to reconcile these two approaches. Now it's off to the course for some field work!
Thank you for watching, glad it helped!
Leons feel vs real on the arm thing is a real issue. If you were to numb up his throwing shoulder and have him throw, he would collapse his shoulder a ton. He FEELS like he is not using his arm, but that is because he knows timing very well and activates his shoulder muscles just the right amount to keep the shoulder from collapsing.
The shoulder IS active. For anyone who is not totally collapsing the shoulder.
But yea, I think Josh's take on it is a bit confusing. But we do agree on what is happening mechanically, just have different ideas about how to coach it best.
Josh’s video is specifically for people who make the mental mistake of thinking of the throw as a chain from the ground up. Which is what I was doing. That video literally took me from 400 to 430 overnight. Few better feeling things in the world than finding breakthrough new distance.
Interesting, I dont think he defines the audience as such. Did I miss that?
I also wouldn't define that as a mistake, rather a fact. How can you argue against the idea that any force in sports where people are standing on the ground always comes from the ground up? Have you tried throwing a disc standing on ice? Ground force matters.
I feel like I mentioned in the video that 'arm the disc' is a functional cue sometimes for some people. And in those instances this idea will get you more distance. I also mentioned at the beginning that I totally agree that is how pro players think and what they do on power shots.
Really curious what you think about the ground force thing...
Thanks for the comment! Glad Josh's video got you some extra distance.
I think that Josh is in it for shock factor now. And I like Josh but I feel like he is lost at this point in time in his "UA-cam coaching." When you say that starting from the ground up is wrong, I'm sorry but that's a serious take that needs a little more care before sending it out to the masses.
This could simply be a timing cue that Josh is getting a lot of people in the right position but it's not backed by what's actually going on. I think Owen does a good job of really pointing out why that arm/elbow ends up out in front. Josh is great for giving people the right cues to help them for sure. Glad you found some extra distance.
yeah agree, and his video of arming the disc, the shoulder are just straight, i think that is hurting the elbow, argue is good tho. that is how we learn, btw if you look at baseball or golf its the hips, but they need to be turn at the sametime, 180 degree on shoulder and 22 - 45 degrees on hips. also the trebushet sling is says static is best, this need to be tested out and compared.
@@lsu2012tigers
Ok I think we got out talkie wires crossed and are not actually disagreeing.
"When you say that starting from the ground up is wrong, I'm sorry but that's a serious take that needs a little more care before sending it out to the masses."
I DO think all forces come from the ground up. You too right? Starting from the ground up is right.
I generally agree with your assessment. You explained it much better then I could and I watched Josh's video twice. My initial thought was getting the arm in a poor position related to the trunk is a recipe for arm injuries.
I have not seen injury from poor arm position. Shoulder injury from over muscling is totally possible as is elbow issues from throwing hard forehands wrong...
Thanks for the comment!
You are brilliant
I started experimenting with this after seeing Josh's video and having worked with everything else it certainly opened up some new venues of improvement. And I came to the same conclusion that the key to arming the disc correctly is to have the rest of the body mechanics in place. In particular the "knee behind the leg" is important, otherwise it just leads to rounding and barn doors. One thing I noticed though, if I start with the hips (the double move, sensu slingshot disc golf), i.e. collapse the shoulders first to load the kinetic chain and then open it, the timing and accuracy improved a lot (was easier to "arm it"). There is never one single thing that makes or brakes the throw, its a combination of so many different technical details what makes the disc golf throw so hard to learn for those it does not come naturally for (like me).
Totally. I think there are 8 or 9 places to generate power and you only really have to have two of them nailed down and working really well together to get pretty solid distance. Not everything has to be perfect.
I also found alot more success when I started using a slingshot cue of bouncing off the reachback position and letting the rear arm be more active. But now I feel like those cues are best used as a layer on top of a solid contained brace and good hip mechanics.
Agreed! Definitely has helped me alot.
I really like what you laid out in this video. I think you did a great job explaining where the tension needs to be for an explosive throw. Keeping the shoulder tense and elbow and wrist relaxed until the hit unlocked 400' for me.
The one thought you had that didn't make complete sense to me is the section about Wiggins. I always thought the axis of rotation had to be along the spine or else you'd generate some pretty high forces on your spine. Your axis seemed to be the path that the ground forces travel through the body
Some players the axis of rotation is absolutely the spine, that is visually clear sometimes. Sometimes its more right hip to right shoulder and that gets trickier to see. So its partly body type dependent, partly motion dependent, and partly feel vs real and we would need good motion capture data to be sure what the heck is actually happening. I'm mostly just explaining my way of thinking of it, may not be strictly 'true' but I feel it does help build a functional model of the throw that can help you learn to execute. Also the axis isnt static, things move around during the throw... its not as easy as we want it to be!
I wish more pros would elaborate on their form when it comes to how much tension/ looseness is involved. They almost always say the same “elbow the door and plant perpendicular”.
Me too. But pro’s may not be the answer. In my limited experience and what Ive heard from others being a pro doesnt mean you have any capacity to explain what you feel or do in a way that is useful. Some players do and that great, but the majority seem to have not developed coaching skills at the same rate they have developed skills that help them perform well.
Or you get the opposite with folks like Leon (who has generally great content) saying they think their arm is dead loose, which is demonstrably inaccurate (at least in most players).
So elbow the door is their swing though (when asked) but their body know what is ‘good tension’ and what is ‘bad tension’ and they automatically dont use the bad kind anymore.
This is a really good explanation. It is great to get opposing views/descriptions (in polite ways). It is how our knowledge moves forward.
Yea, but me an Josh don't actually disagree on anything mechanically... Just how it should be talked about / coached... pretty sure we are on the same page about what actually happens.
And thank you!
Several years ago Paige Pierce said she imagines herself breaking down a door with her right elbow, hard as she can, and the door is located exactly at the same place her aim point is located. I don't recall if she also said keep the forearm loose.
Great content, as always. Talk more, not less. Everyone teaching can do stuff; it's the words that disabuse us of our delusions about what we imagine we're doing. Analysis of mechanics always built on a skeleton of moving elements (aka bones or a literal skeleton) is schematic compared to the fleshy complexity of an actual body in motion. Reduction of meta-conceptions is usually helpful and you do an excellent job of stripping away flesh, I mean unnecessary layers that tend to hide the mechanics.
When you say hip and shoulders start at the same time, could you please explicitly define when off arm downward movement begins in relation to brace foot contact with the tee pad? Adding this downward off arm movement is crashing my drive timing, but I can't really find any top pro who doesn't plunge their off arm to initiate their forward whip these days. It's the standard now.
I feel like I remember that video...
Thanks for the kind words!
Off arm timing relative to brace foot: its kinda a feel thing. I cant so much tell you exactly when it starts... thats a hard instant to pinpoint in such an organic elliptical movement too. But if I saw video of your throw I could tell you if it seemed early or late to me. The one timing thing I can feel that I think would translate to everyone is that the downward motion of your hand should hit its peak low point right before the disc rips out.
I dont think about the off arm as initiating whip (Trent from slingshot does, in my understanding) I think of the off arm as shooting down towards the brace foot to help establish a firm hyzer tilted axis in the spine and rear leg counterweight. Not the only way to throw, just what I find most powerful and efficient.
Terminal right before the disc rips out, i.e. later than I've been doing; thank you.
Your more explicit purpose for the off arm being--in terms of overall structure before and after, so to speak--to establish and support the hyzer spinal "axle," now braced on two roughly orthogonal axes, gives the movement a formally enumerated ballet sense on its way to becoming solidly built trebuchet scaffolding. It also provides more of that containment of movement and so momentum you and Josh talk about, yes?
Seems to me the style you teach will lend itself to consistency without mandatory daily practice because so many parts are sort of terminal, meaning they happen definitively instead of intuitively. The movement and position tasks you assign are clear and typically sharp, aided of course with sticks and sticks with ropes taped to them. I finally understand the mountain of trouble a long last stride offers. Worth learning to live without it and with a healthy ACL.@@_TDG
Ha! Yes, seems we are on the same page.
yea I like the idea of building a solid frame and throwing from that. The frame helps consistency a TON!
@@bretbowman2007
I've done so much experimenting with form, I should have been shooting videos of myself but I found something that unlocked noticeable distance and accuracy. In my x-step if I rose my body up some and then STOMPED my plant foot down just as I started my rotation I found much more power. You need good leg strength for this. I just figured it was as if I was getting more traction on the ground as the foundation for my rotation. I mean, if I was in zero gravity, how would I get my body to turn to create a throw? It has to start with that one point at maximum pressure. The more you're trying to accelerate a disc within the unchanging distance of a swing, the more force you need and that force (equal and opposite) needs that much more of an anchor.
Yes! Rising up a bit on the initial step, in order to float over the x step, then have more ground force on the plant, is a great cue and something I am working on integrating in to my throw.
Hand needs to be faster than left shoulder. That is the whole point of what Josh is teaching and it’s based on Coach Crish Taylors studies on Wiggins form where his hand is twice as fast as his shoulders. If youre hand/disc in sync with your left elbow, that is your speed limiter. If you can separate the movement from left shoulder movement, you are able to pass the speed limiter.
*left shoulder, not left elbow
I just want to pass along the concerns some people like myself have with Josh's video, that Owen is commenting on here. "Arming the disc" is bad advice. It can be used as a cue to correct too little arm involvement for certain individuals, but a better cue would be language that isn't open for misinterpretation. And to be blunt - "arming the disc" is pretty explicitly bad advice when taken literally or colloquially. Even people who taught passive use of the arm when throwing expect the hand to rotate and accelerate faster than the shoulders. "Use the arm more" is probably one of a few better phrasings of a cue that would fix a problem of the arm doing too little in the swing. 🙂
But the hand will always move faster than the shoulders as it travels longer in the same time. If you hold arms straight out from your shoulders and rotate the shoulders then the hands will move alot faster...
Yea, arming the disc is bad cue for people still trying to paas 200-300 feet or so. Some people might think arming means you got to squeeze you muscles super hard. Humerus doesnt move much without scapulohumeral rhytm so you need to corporate you’re whole body. But intention getting the hand move faster got me places.
Beginner played for 4 yeras but cant throw over 300ft can I improve`?
I bet you can. Esp if youve never had a coach before.
@@_TDG never had a coach, but I dont know where to start and what to do
@@MusicGW sign up here!
patreon.com/_TDG
i have been 300ft for years can i improve?
Depends on alot, but probably yes!
i think ODG teaches bad form and habits, its good as a very preliminary starter for beginners but if you want to throw far then the concepts that TDG and disc golf spin doctor provide are totally different than the overthrow videos and actually work
I think Josh’s box drill, twirly bird 1, and hula drill are some of the best ways to feel out some elements of the throw. So I wouldnt say he teaches bad habits.
What major differences standout to you?
Tbh... I don't listen to anything from OTD.
Trying to pull 1:1 mechanics from a 360 throw to a walk up does not make a lick of sense. There are fundamental differences in power generation, as one has rotational momentum in play, the other doesn't.
And I do agree. Understanding what you can do with the arm is more of an advanced technique. Coach Trent has mentioned similar.
Makes complete sense as well.. once you've baked into muscle memory good form shoulder down, it frees up mental capacity to focus on your arm and the hit... and I bet this is where advanced players are able to manipulate the throw, with things such as launch trajectory, nose angles, tilt, spin, etc.
OTD = Overthrow?
If so, I actually think the vast majority of his info is solid and he has done a ton for DG coaching.
I disagree that there are fundamental differences between a walk up and a 360. The brace mechanism is exactly the same. You are just throwing more rotational momentum at it in a 360, it is still converting all the linear momentum (or as much as possible) into rotation.