Is 3D-Printed Titanium The Future Of Bikes? | GCN Tech Show Ep. 282
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- Опубліковано 2 сер 2024
- Carbon fiber is dead. Okay, we admit that’s a bit extreme, but are its days of being cycling’s wonder material coming to an end? Alex and Manon are joined by framebuilding guru Tom Sturdy for a deep dive into 3D printing and the process of making titanium bikes. We also have news of a new Pinarello mountain bike, speedy boy all-condition tyres, and a whole lot more!
00:00 Intro
00:42 Tom Sturdy
01:28 What is 3D printing?
03:25 Benefits of 3D printing bike parts
04:45 Cost comparison with carbon fiber
06:12 Methods of making titanium bikes
08:00 Shifting to titanium from carbon fiber
09:50 Different printing processes
11:22 Optimising the process
13:08 Customised geometry
14:30 Could a bike be fully 3D-printed?
17:35 Will 3D-printed titanium replace carbon?
19:02 New GCN helmet partner!
19:47 Pinarello XC mountain bike
21:17 Elite water bottle steriliser
22:21 Pirelli P-Zero Race 4S tyres
23:28 Q36.5 kit
26:06 Peloton bike recall
26:37 Park Tool bottom bracket tool
27:15 Comments of the Week
32:02 Bike Vault
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What are your thoughts on 3D-printed titanium? 🚲 Let us know in the comments below! 💬
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What are your thoughts on 3D-printed titanium? 🚲👇
The opportunities can't even be fully imagined at this time. Think about: zero waste, recyclability, manufacturing while you sleep, "forever life," rim brakes are back (!?!), carbon-free, ...
It's pretty epic. You did a Special on GCN+ on the Athertons that did 3d printed TI components with Carbon fiber. I think a combo of both materials will be the near term future combining the best of both worlds, as the complexity and cost of 3d printing that Tom brought up might be the short term barrier of entry for companies and consumers still addicted to carbon and traditional manufacturing Techniques. combining 3d printing will bring the complexity to parts not possible before helping bring weight down with TI but also keeping the process simply by utilizing a known process of carbon layup that would lead to , i believe , maintained areo gains, lighter and more durable bikes and added compliance without sacrificing power transfer and stiffness.
I love that there is a new material available, but I think carbon fiber isn't going anywhere. Printed titanium will have its place in a number of places and parts, but carbon is more readily available than titanium.
Speed of manufacture wasn't taken into account at all. This is not important for a small manufacturer but making 10.000 or more bikes a year the low printing speed will be prohibitive for big manufacturers.
Weight is another factor and carbon is to my knowledge much lighter, at least for conventional shapes likes tubes etc.
I need to start to think about money-3D-printer...
Thank you for having Tom Sturdy on. I really appreciated his words on the issue of 3D printing. Very enlightening!
Week 9 of asking for a 'The UCI has no jurisdiction here' T-shirt
@gcn get on it
I would buy this.
GTN should do it.
Hang in there😅
I enjoyed watching Tom relax and start to riff with Alex and Manon throughout the video
Should we get Tom back in the channel for more? He's a fountain of knowledge 🙌
Every even year it's magnesium that's the future material of bikes, every odd year it's titanium.
An incredibly interesting guest. An aerospace engineer who doesn't swear and behave like a 5 year old.
In contrast with Ollie getting angry at poor bike vault submissions, I love Manon's disappointment and her indignant delivery of "appalling".❤
I Love Sturdys cycles! The Fiat is the most beautiful bike on the market, maybe of all time! IMO...keep it up Tom!
We love Sturdy cycles too! Tom os constantly smashing it 🙌
Sorry Alex but i think you should be buying and sourcing all components from scratch. I think many felt like they were along the for the ride (sorry couldnt resist the pun) of the build with you and could imagine themselves attempting a similar project themselves. The majority of viewers dont have Dura Ace etc speres sitting around in the shed so …
In summary although you are willing to budget your spares into the build, the viewers have not been part of the process of sourcing them.
So chin up, dive into a local bike part swap meet and take us along on your journey 🎉
Budget bike build should be an example of how the average viewer [rider] can build a bike that is budget. You guys have unfair access to exotic/super parts.
I agree, it's all very well if Alex finds a £1000 set of wheels behind his sofa but doesn't count that. It's not surprising though as they are sponsored by so many companies with freebies I think they have no idea how much it costs to do anything
Yes, but does Tom have Hambini's Seal of Approval?🤨🤔
You know he's not a real mechanical engineer right?
F hambini 😂
@@janeblogs324 what is he, then?
I think the practicality of full frames is still a ways off. The quality of the parts both in nylons and metals aren't quite there yet, though there are emerging technologies that should allow for more control of the grain structure of the metals that could get there. Right now the trade off for both is that they need to be overbuilt compared to parts made with traditional methods.
Still its very exciting and there are other very cool doors opened by metal 3d printing for bikes like printing molds for custom lugs and then using the emerging thermoplastic composite tech being used by the new Chris King wheels to make the lug.
Do you think this is the future of manufacturing? 👀
@@gcntech The future is already here! Its already changing the way Ti frames are made. But for more general frame building, I think Scalmalloy is a more likely candidate.
Following the series to learn how to upgrade my bike, but find out i don't have a garage full of old bike parts to choose
I’m seeing cycling has a way of overpricing, event when they’re telling you things are getting easier
I always loved titanium bikes but could never afford them. The 3d printing is still quite expensive but I am convinced it will become much cheaper in the next 10 years. I can't wait to see affordable titanium aero bikes. I would prefer titanium over Carbon any time.
Alex it’s not that you used some spare parts, literally no one has a spare Dura Ace crankset lying about for 100
Question for Tom: why are we still seeing tube optimized designs used for additive manufacturing?
For example the steerer tube inside the head tube, a heavy tube-in-tube design, requiring a heavy crown in a constrained position to keep the strength. A hinged steering design would be stronger and simpler with increased triangulation. I'd have thought that would be easier to do with additive manufacturing than to replicate older designs.
Great show with Tom and Manon
Awesome!!!
Titanium is my favourite bike material, but I've never got one because they're generally not as aerodynamic or as cool looking because you can't normally shape titanium as crazily.
After I saw Czinger 3d print parts of their car out of titanium, I've been waiting for the day that we'd get it for bicycles.
It's not just that they can be aerodynamic like carbon fiber but by using ai to shape the material, you can get it as light as possible and it looks crazy awesome like organic material.
Just look at the suspension control arms on the Czinger 21c.
Also not just for road bikes, we'd just be going for aero shapes. I'd really love to see those organic shapes used for MTB frames, especially the linkages on full sus bikes.
There's actually a bike called the mx-6 Evo that has that organic looking structure for the parts that connect the seatpost to the frame.
Just worried about the price but with all technologies, things get cheaper as it matures.
The irony is Titanium is used in AEROnautics...
That would be 'fibre'
If only GCN would get sponsored by a real English spellchecker. 🙂
@@stevemawer848 and don't get me started on their pronunciation of 'titanium' - tai-tay-nee- uhm - Angels and ministers of grace defend us!
@@agamemnonhatredat least Tom says it *correctly
Interesting topic (and video, thanks!), and judging from the comments also quite controversial. There seem to be a lot of questions and also misconceptions around 3D printing. I think a second video where Tom explains what he actually means when he says "the design process is a lot more involved, than many think" would be quite helpful and interesting.
The thing I will sure try mentioned is Pirelli's high pressure sealant, item I missed so far, for years using Caffelatex for all my tyres but I have impression it's not doing so well over 6 (or even 5) bars, and P Zero 4S will come as my choice for autumn, already did several thousands km on P Zero race 28 and 30 mm with no flats, bit less durable than Cinturatos I've also used extensively but faster and quiter... hope 4S will share main advantages of both lines with grip, comfort and super high reliability while still not losing too many Watts:-)
I kept waiting for you to ask about strength and durability testing of printed components. How does printed titanium compare to forged titanium?
Airbus uses 3d printed Titanium parts on the A350. So the technology should be fine.
Space X 3d prints the inconel turbopump casing of the Merlin rocket engine.
These are not just bicycles
It will never be as strong for the weight. The metallurgic alignment even after post heat treatment will always be weaker than forged
Loving your videos.. Sitting here feeling sorry for my self with a broken hand, ribs and concussion following a bike crash on Sunday. Ironically my wife also had an accident running and broke her hand as well on Sunday as well leaving us in hospital together..Your videos are keeping the boredom on the sofa at bay. We are currently living off pre made meals as we only have two functioning hands between us! Hope Manon has recovered from her race
Goodness gracious, best of luck to you and your wife's speedy recovery!
I sympathise - I broke my wrist (playing badminton, sorry!) and spent over two months without the use of my (dominant) right hand. Pre-made meals are a blessing!
This is really cool. That Tom can make a viable business with bespoke parts 3d printed by a service bureau. It proves the point that the costs of accessing the technology has come down so independent builders could do their own designs "affordably". Long ago, you'd buy cast lugs, crowns and other bits from Columbus, Gipiemme and Campagnolo and braze your frame out of your favorite steel tubing. To do so using whatever geometry you can imagine and fit in the print envelope is amazing. I would love to see a deep dive on the 3d printing and fabrication workflow..getting even more nerdy.
Not a fan yet. The molecular structure of the metal just isn't the same as if you used metal coming from a foundry. The% of ingredients in the metal when they form tubes isn't really reliable in printing because the powder isnt mixed all at once, so you have to be sure all the ingredients to make it strong or give it the properties like a reynolds steel for example really isnt possible.
They did make suspension control arms in a hypercar out of 3d printed titanium, as well as many of the other parts so I guess it can be done strong enough. But maybe it'll be a weight issue in that case.
I was wondering that. I wish they’d have gone into the technicalities of the structure. Can’t see how it can be like metal tubing.
Titanium's properties at their near worst are going to beat out steel for the demands of a cyclist.
While* you've got a point about the crystal structures not being the same (though there's no reason that can't be accounted for in the design), the powders they use are already the final alloy.
They're not mixing X% titanium powder with Y% aluminium and Z% molybdenum and just hoping that it all gets distributed evenly to create the same alloy throughout. That would be insanity.
Airbus uses a lot of 3d printed Titanium parts on their new flagship, the A350. I'm sure they checked the parts before they used it on an multi million € aircraft
Loving Manon's newly acquired mb lingo, at this rate we'll be seeing her host gmbn with Anna and the boys 😊
Picking up my new Atherton AM.130 in two weeks time, so I will soon have first hand experience of riding a carbon/additive titanium mix in the bike frame, excited about the technology used and the thought of how it will ride.
Oooo even we're jealous of that! ... we would know how to ride the thing 😳
Fibre. Good grief. We're not Americans.
I spotted that faux pas straight away. However GCN goes for the dollar at every chance.
Really enjoyed listening to Tom Sturdy 👌
Manon should ask Hank about saddle injuries. Or maybe not. She should just watch the GCN+ video of Hank riding a high wheeler.
Not sure we want all the details from Hank 😂
Aren’t they going to invent a way of 3D printing carbon fibre eventually?
For smaller items, the size of the fibre can be small and provide extensive benefit. However, for larger items it is get really tough really quick. Maybe someday in the future...but I would right now printed titanium provides a demonstrable benefit compared to other "metal" solutions. We still need to see if the same holds true over something like a carbon fibre frame.
No. The word fiber should give it away....look up the Lexus LFA manufacturing if you want to see the ideal future of strong carbon
There is. Continuous filament thermoplastic printing
Tom has such a straight face. He’ll make a master poker player. Great show!
I think he was just bemused by the cobblers he was hearing from left and right
I personally wouldn't trust 3D- printed titanium. It's only safe for prototype use and non structural components. If you remember the Team pursuit at the 2020 Tokyo Olympics, when a 3D- printed handlebar component made by another boutique bike brand manufactured by Bastion Cycles failed spectacularly ...
In this case you shouldn't fly with an Airbus A350, because they use a lot of 3d printed Titanium parts there
if you question a material just because one accident, then on the top of your list it should be carbon fibre, since every year there are thousands of incidents of carbon parts fail in races.
Very scientific comment of yours. Maybe you should let people talk who actually studied for an engineering degree and are able to proof, test or calculate if something can be trusted and stop judging a material because of "that one thing you've seen on tv once".
@@erikschmidt5263That's right, since 3D printing is used for aircraft and rocket parts it can not really be wrong for something like a bicycle. The safety standard in aircraft and space flight is a little bit higher than for a bicycle
@@simonm1447 You do realize I'm on your side do you? 😅 I was referring to the original comment
Dear GCN. Really enjoy your videos and got into cycling last year both for fitness and utility. I really enjoy being able to take a small vehicle into a new town for exploring as well as using the bike paths, in total I have ridden 600 miles since October. However I recently discovered this paper which I find concerning and deterring from riding my bike "Evaluation of Noise Exposure Secondary to wind noise in cyclists". The paper states that are 10mph wind speed it is equivalent to 85dBa which is enough to damage hearing. I can easily maintain 13-15 mph which raises it up to 90dBa. Another study that references this paper measured 75 dBa with an average speed of 10 mph. Both of this papers used microphones mounted near the ear but not in the ear canal. Thus I have reservations of the results, however assuming the results are correct then cycling has risk for hearing loss. These papers also implicate that simply standing in a breeze of 10mphs can be damaging to hearing (thus my reservation). Also cycling with ear plugs is no fun and could be considered borderline dangerous. With that background my question is do professional cyclists experience hearing loss (much higher average speed)? Are people aware of the risk? I am wondering if maybe this could be talked about in a future show?
No
Good question. If you are concerned about it, there is a product called "Cat-Ears" (Edit: thanks, Steven!) that you attach to your helmet straps and reduces wind noise without affecting your ability to hear cars or people around you.
Pardon?
@@Frostbiker that's almost right. "Cat-Ears" is the product name.
Sturdy is just amazing
Why no bike vault? Today would have been the perfect time to highlight titanium bikes in the BV!
Can 3d printed titanium be smoothed and polished? It always looks like a rough casting to me and this seems to be used as the finished product after a little while in the tumbler.
I want to 3D print in titanium the Aero Design Stem for the LOOK 795 BLADE RS. Any leads out there?
Hi Tom, your brand is only one from few which is producing titanium bar end plugs. They’re are nice although bit to expensive for my budget. Could you make more simple titanium bar ends plugs for more affordable price ?
My tyres are also all-round, except when I get a puncture.
Has anyone done an energy study on the various manufacturing methods of bike frames? It seems like the energy and tool costs for hydroforming (aluminum), autoclaves (carbon fiber), and the annealing (?) processes of additive manufacturing might be a fair bit higher than the traditional steel/aluminum/titanium butted tubes or tube and lugs approach.
3d printed titanium or additive manufacturing is good for maximizing space reducing weight while also reinforcing the part where other type of manufacturing cannot.
In other words
3d printed parts makes that part multipurpose instead of just for structural integrity and reduced weight.
Plus customizable without the use of complicated molds
3d printing is really cool and we keep talking about the reason why - basically skips the cast and machine process making it cheaper and infinitely adjustable… with no extra cost. So it’s no doubt changed the world when it comes to development and prototypes and stuff like that, but we never discuss the down side that its not as strong. Building something from matches will never be as strong as carving something from a solid piece of wood, unless you use a lot of amazing glue but then we’re talking composite and not wood. I’m not anti 3d, just worried about daft people thinking anything and everything can and should be printed because we live in the future now. Love Tom’s blunt honesty in nice nice super nice.
This bike was really easy to assemble ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxMesz3KOGEmwmvyKQfLfrRSUXLFzfVHZA and required very few adjustments out of the box. The wheels did not require any truing/adjustments. The frame had some small scratches, but nothing major.I did replace the seat though - the seat it came with was very uncomfortable. The tires need to be re-inflated every 4-5 days, but this appears to be quite common for the narrow 700x25 tires.Overall, in my opinion, this bike looks and rides like a much more expensive bike.
Leave Alex alone on the budget thing. Also, dura ace pricing is free for all; lots of secondary market price discrepancies. Alex - I challenge you to wax your chain on a budget. (Maybe try to use a cheap wax product for hair removal or something and see if it sticks).
Super interesting discussion. Additive manufacturing sounds great. What I would like to know though is the environmental impact of titanium vs carbon. Cycling is by definition environmentally friendly but t seems quite a wasteful industry. Do you think you could look at this aspect?
Do you mean to say. You don't have Hank racing recumbents on GCN+? Come on guys.
How good is Ollie helmet Vs 2012 Olympics? I brought a helmet like 2012 though yeah might look odd with point at back
Excuse me if I don’t believe it after the grapheme bikes GCN told us were coming. Tom was honest about the challenges.
Incredible technology
Great video enjoyed listening to the gentleman talk about 3D Printing but he looked uncomfortable being on camera
Tom is great "Timmy" is falling off the precipice
My understanding is that sintered parts are not nearly as strong as forged. Maybe that results in only 2x as strong as needed... dunno. But, I'd like to see if more forging and hydro-forming of Ti could be done,. One other thing I wonder is if anyone has merged a multi-axis CNC machine with a 3-D printer to re-orient the piece being built up for optimal deposition and minimal waste.
That would be the dream. Zero gravity printing next!
quick question, what about titanium wheels, is that possible or even worth it ?
excellent ....!!!!!!
GCN keeps talking about stuff that 99% of us can't afford.
There are car racing classes that have a designated "claiming cost". In order to eliminate the ridiculous costs of bike racing, 2000 Euros (or less) should be a good limit for the basic frame.
And half of that 1% won't afford. 🙂
@@ctcboater I can buying a brand new motorcycle for less than 10000 dollars, and it has an engine, a transmission, and better disc brake and better wheel and tyres. Bicycle for over 10000, it's beyond my comprehension.
Please tell me you're not saying titanium bikes--additive or tube--99% of us can't afford. In case you are, carbon bikes can be and often are more pricey than the most expensive ti bikes and there are plenty of ti bikes available for around $3,000. If you're talking of Sturdy, the point was to talk about the current tech and how it could be more and more relevant.
24:26 Haha thats hilarious Manon!
3D printed metal is sexy, but there is way too little control. The properties vary by location and direction in a build Considering that Ti have very poor fatigue and impact toughness to start with I can't imagine that it gets any better when powder fusion is used.
Combine this with the near total lack of non-destructive testing you had better have large factors of safety.
Printing headtubes, bottom brackets, and special fittings makes sense when you only need one-off.
But properties of 3D Ti is a small fraction of what a conventional wrought piece of metal would be.
Hey GCN team, I am not an epileptic myself, but I think it'd be greatly appreciated by those affected if you put a warning into the title for those welding scenes! Loving the interview but that just came to mind!
If 3d printing can help keep the weight down, and make the bike as aero or better than current carbon bike, sounds like carbon may be on it's way out.
Philbert should probably watch the videos - I would think that would be part of the job.
I wish you’d have asked how the Titanium powder is made and how it actually forms into same compound that we see in titanium tubing. Can’t quite get my head around it 😅
Yes I would like to know. He did appear to avoid answering the question on recycling titanium. How does the powder become a solid structure is it glued together like carbon?
@@amandajane8227 it's melted. It is as strong as normal titanium
Great question! We'll have to get Tom back on the show 👀
@@gcntech A trip to his workshop to see the process would be great!
@@gcntech I think you should get Tom on his own without the two clowns. That was the obvious question we all would have asked.
💢MASSIVE FAN HERE! 😎💯
25:13 Any proof to go with that bold claim?
I think the marketing teams are having a competition, to see who can get Giles to say the most nonsense spiel.
What is "fiber"
It's a material, a bit like alooominum. :-)
wear the Manta
Great too see how the future of cycling will break the carbon mold. That kit with silver thread looks banging. Doesn't that mean you are wearing Faraday cage? Great for blocking them pesky alien Sabotaging Communications😂
Falling asleep 😴
I wonder whether 3D printed bikes can last as long as conventional ones...
Not sure of the cutoff but there is a gorgeous black Colnago V4rs that scored 95% super nice--the highest I've seen. Perfectly staged on all fronts. There is no way that jaunty angled Specialized scored higher. And there were others that scored very high that deserved it. You're getting bad data from your app people.
Seems reasonable for lugs, but too expensive and time consuming for straight tubing. Many companies are already using 3d printed droputs lugs and other parts.
How much for a 3D printed frame? Good business for the sellers. And why Formula One doesn't use this technology in place of carbon fiber? 🙄
bring back cheap strong welded steel pipes
Wonder how many GCN Tech presenters have been 3D-printed? Ollie, perhaps ... Or, all of them ...
They 3D-printed the bitch who's blindly sitting there, that's for'sho
I'm with Eric on his budget bike build, in using components from previous projects. Recycle the cycle is my motto, top man Aled.👍
Except the point was a to compare a bike you can build for £1000 to one that cost £10,000 - taking a Dura Ace crank (one you’d find on a £10,000 bike) and putting it on the build defeats the purpose of the video as someone else looking to do this doesn’t have parts like that laying around.
@cyclo_furious Well, if I had a £1,000 max spend on a bike build, but also had Ultegra drive train sitting in my shed/garage, and possibly some decent wheels, the I would certainly use them rather than knave good stuff in the shed. It would then be that I've got the bike I wanted and spent less than the £1,000 budget that I anticipated. Winner.
Of course it's better to re use parts but you can't say they wouldn't be worth anything because you bought/were given them earlier. He could say he made a bike which cost nothing as it was from donated parts or was stolen!
a lot of you guys out there should of waited a little longer for the metal printers ,
Is it possible to build a real 3D printed titanium road bike because I haven't seen it yet
I would like to know how strong are printed parts? I'm just a layman and not a materials scientist but my impression is that they would be quite brittle and prone to fracture when flexing due to being formed from a powder instead of a homogenous lump of metal. Very bad for things like handle bars and chain stays, and less reliable for parts like drop outs which could perhaps be CNCed.
Airbus is 3d printing titanium parts for the A350 and SpaceX 3d prints inconel turbopump casings of the Merlin engine. It isn't brittle, otherwise it would not be used on aircraft and rockets
Carbon is a joke .
Bamboo is real
If the TI frames are weight and stiffness comparable but with longer life...I'm I
I hope they do skin suit but long legs, hate short legs
So long as legs reach the ground, they're fine!
I miss seeing hank man
So do I, whenever I possibly can! :-)
But is it lighter?
its not the use of bits laying around, but the laughable valuations like £100 for a dura-ace crankset! I wish....
Fibre: not Fiber.
This video needed Ollie in it.
£100 for dura-ace cranks? You were robbed. I just paid £80 for FC7900.
"protects against electromagnetic smog" oh shit we have arraived here....
Definitely a BS alert needed sounding at that point
Its still so lazy to use the stuff sitting around… Its not about the Price in the budget, its about spending the time to reasearch and get the best value pieces. It would be nice if you had like 3-4 wheelsets from marketplace or whatever and then you commented on why you then chose the wheelset that you went with. The video becomes a video just about building a bike, when what is interesting when you do a budget bike with used parts its about the process of picking through available parts. There is a hundred videos on mindlessly bolting parts together to form a bike. Haven’t we all had 5-6-7 tabs open in our webbrowser with potential upgrade parts, and then had to choose? Do I take the sligtly older dura Ace or the current generation 105, do I Pick the part scuffed and grim looking Ultegra or new in box 105? Thats is What is interesting. I know you Can do better. Give the bike to some Amateur or Veteran or kid or whatever after. Its not wastefull, its picking pieces that is not being used and putting them together in a meaningful way, using your great expertize to maximise value for money 😄
Will 3D printed titanium replace Carbon fiber bikes? No. Carbon fiber molding tech will advance as 3D printed titanium advances. CF molding will continue to be faster and less expensive.
Tom might be more qualified to be on the show than the presenters 😅. Manon and Alex you're the best, never leave.
Ok. Where's the graphine bikes and magnesium bikes that were the future?
33:30 Nobody criticizing the Ultegra crank on a SRAM build?! Complete no-no for a bike snob like me. There are also other "infractions" like mixing Vittoria and Continental tires. What wasted potential...
23:11 don’t pause
i'm worried about the quality of education in the UK when people don't know the word "precipice" and pronounce "deraileur" as DEE-RAI-LEE-UR instead of DEE-RAIL-UR (how do you pronounce entrepeneur and amateur???)
did that guy have k force on his moots?
Are people super nicing bikes to annoy Ollie?.....maybe 😂😂
There was nothing wrong with aluminum! Couple of hundred grams heavier, so what! Harsher ride, not when everyone is riding 28mm tyres these days!
TAZ