Don't honour any kind of claim on this engine, he's pissed around with it so it's his problem from here onwards and that homemade gasket and the ground down bits are a major contribution to the damage. I can't get enough of these warranty stories,they beggar belief most of them, thanks for another great video 😊
Well for a start, the engine was tampered with after it left your shop. For me, I would keep well away from it and tell the customer that he'll have to foot the bill (upfront) for any future works to the engine.
Mains bolts have been ground off in-situ, lol. They made a perfect grinding paste resulting in a new oil pump and the bearing damage. Yep the dodgy gasket will reduce the oil flow. The customer knows he dropped a clanger, that's why he's not blaming you.
I am not wise enough to know, but years ago we ran an Essex V6 in a light car with a front well sump, under hard acceleration it would briefly lose oil pressure. After one too many hard launches from the traffic lights the engine started to knock, it did nothing like this carnage. (We made a baffled sump when we fixed it). I realise this engine had a home made pump gasket but chances are it was in one piece when fitted. I think you are right on the money, the swarf from the grinding did the pump in. It would be interesting to know if the original oil pump was damaged too. You have to wonder too whether the remote oil filter assembly was contaminated when it was fitted. A shallow sump on a high revving engine may not be too clever if it has no windage tray and the pickup might have been far from optimal, a shallow sump with a stock pickup will encourage it to pickup crap that would otherwise sit in the bottom of the sump. Was the sump also "clearanced" with a grinder at the last minute? TBH I think there are too many unknowns to reasonably uphold a warranty claim, the wrong viscosity oil is the least of the problems. IMHO you can give a bit of "goodwill" but this engine was damaged by subsequent work, not by the original build......
I like your videos. I am an old mechanic from the US. I would never, ever let someone walk out of my shop with an incomplete engine. In fact, I always made sure we installed any engine rebuild in the car before we let it leave. In addition, I would insist as a condition of warranty that they return the car for inspection and oil change after 2000 miles. There is just so much that can go wrong as evidenced by the warranty claims I have seen here. help me understand why you do that, you must have a good reason as you seem to be a very smart guy.
I worked in a machine shop for many years, with each reworked engine we supplied a sheet with running in instructions, the oil to use 'depending' on the engines application & supplied the oil, the onus is then the customer's to follow the instructions to the letter, and if not that was on their head, we also marked all sump & head bolts to deter tampering, and if the markings was found to be disturbed, warranty null and void, it's a minefield now and the reason we sold the business.
In the U.k. And the U.S. You couldnt void a warranty with taper indicating fasteners, not legally. There is the Magnusson moss act in the states and the consumer protection act in the uk. You could try and if the warranty claim was valid and the customer took you to court you would have to show how manipulating the hardware caused the issue. When the customer wins their case, like i said its a valid warranty claim, not only would you have to fulfil all warranty clauses but pay court fees and legal costs of the plaintiff. Even the stickers on consumer electronics that indicate manipulation have no value in court. A, it isnt 100% reliable B, there are nondestructive methods to open electronics C, the sticker doesnt affect functionality. Simply opening something does not break it and the courts in the US and UK have acknowledged this.
@@timothybayliss6680 Granted opening does not mean that it's what's caused the item to be defective, however, I would argue as to the persons abilities, would they have the knowledge to discern or diagnose an issue, & let's suppose it was found they was not, it could be argued as to why it was opened up in the first place, and if they was, why open the unit to then file a warranty claim when it would become impossible for anyone to discern if any tampering was the cause of the issue, and that my friend is why we sold up, the lawyers always get paid win or lose, but come on, opening and modifying parts that clearly should not be is the work of Sunday morning jim under his moggy minor he's been restoring since it was brand new & he's still trying to put it together after changing a flat tyre. Cracking channel by the way.
@@eatsinabeat the last time i had an engine "built" by a shop it pitched a keeper and twisted the oil pump drive during break in. Its probably a good thing it stopped making oil pressure because i shut it down right away. I took the pan off and found a keeper in the bottom. How well do you think things would have gone for the shop if when i walked in with a picture if the valvespring with only one keeper on it and a twisted pump drive and keeper in my hand they told me that because i took the pan off that they werent going to warranty the build? Whats is my responsibility here? It stops making oil pressure so i take it out of the vehicle and return the assembly to the shop? How much of my time do i have to invest? Installing the heads isnt terribly difficult but i cant remove the unit that has a malfunction without voiding the warranty either? Even the inclusion of tamper indicators is potentially a violation of consumer protection act because it assumes that warranty protection is validated based on something that isnt causal to the failure. You make a claim that its Sunday morning Jim that is the one thats going to damage the package through inept modification. That fictional person isnt the customer base of a machine shop of this caliber. Most people involved in the hobby or profession arent grinding mains hardware to fit a pan. Most people that do this and would use this shop for service would know how to swap a cylinder head or pan without causing malfeasance. The evidence of this is the lack of spurious warranty claims.
(1) I would ask the customer who did the grinding (2) also who replaced the oils pump as the gasket has blocking the flow of oil restricting the pressure so changing the pump and leaving the old gasket didn’t sort anything out. (3) who did all this work invalidated your warranty. (4) but as we have the engine in bits we can sort out the problem that’s occurred but in doing so do not accept any liability for damage caused by a third party. Great video it’s nice to see the engines coming in with these problems that have been worked on by so called mechanics. The customer has cocked up but to Embarrassed to admit it. 👍
I'd love to see the sump he made/bought, was it baffled? .....and where did he put the pick up? if it's used in a trial car they get to all sort of mad angles, oil starvation , it should have been dry sumped.
I agree with you Dave, he should have dry sumped it, and that grinding dust must have gone everywhere, it certainly would not have helped those bearings/caps etc stay healthy ! the oil from the homemade sump described would not have been good and would've pooled the oil away from everything for too long a time inc' the oil pump leading to insufficient lubrication for too long !!
My thoughts exactly, the modified sump and baffles if any, to many unknowns I like "you broke it you bought it" your a business man you seem to already know the answer time for a divorce. I
I would guess it has been sucking air, either from the crap gasket or due to the poor sump design (most likely cause). Even an oil pump with that much damage will produce good enough oil pressure. The debris damage is consequential in my opinion. I work on off highway engines and anything that needs gradeability (if wet sump) needs / gets a deep well sump. Another thing that would worry me is that the oil pick up pipe has a minimum distance from the sump bottom, beyond that flow can be messed up. And these are usually set close to minimum by design. Messing with the sump clearance would not be good. High level assessment... Would i expect a on highway engine to survive in a off highway application. No!!!. Not without modification. And a shallow sump is not one of those modifications
Grinding away material from the studs and nuts would surely change the torques plus heat and vibration, then add loads of lovley griding dust. Then then the oil starvation gasket, charge him for all your time and some.
My advice for what is worth, give him it back and have no further dealings with the engine, never ending trouble! On a brighter note, loving the in-depth engineering vids 👍🏻
I had an oil pressure problem on a v6 engine from an 1986 oldsmobile, it was modified for a jeep install, it turned out to be the thickness of the gasket being increased and the sump being elongated. Same damage too. Cork gasket was more than twice as thick as stock, I ended up making a gasket out of a phonebook cover and it worked for years.
As has been said before, MAKE SURE that a full disclaimer is included in both the estimate for the work, and subsequent bill, as you cannot be responsible for owner's installation, treatment & maintenance of your engines. And having the decency of taking the engines back for inspection covers your backs, shows goodwill, and both you & the customer can learn from mistakes.
funny how the bearing that spun is between the 2 ground stud's, id say it was grinding wheel dust/metal contamination. if the studs needed grinding they should have been removed from the engine, never grind near an open engine, grind wheel dust is the worst thing to have inside an engine.
On top of that, reducing the height of the nut can reduce the tension it is capable of effecting on the bearing caps by reducing the grip length, it gets worse if an angle grinder has been used and the nut hasn't been retorqued afterwards.
I've heard several stories from older mechanics of valve grinding compound not being good either, when customers have annoyed mechanics in some way. From what I've heard if it's added in motor oil, it will run a while before anything odd turns up. Apparently it can't be traced back to the guy who did it either, but it's expensive revenge against the customer !
@@davelead2742 I heard it about 30 years ago, from a couple guys that were in their late 60's then. I'm not sure how it would work with some modern filter technology now. But I can tell you I had a Russian tractor in here with a centrifugal oil filter. It had liner seals go bad so the guy dumped copper seal leak stopper in it being a cheap fix, It didn't fix the leak like he thought. it dumped the coolant again a week later. on inspecting the sump contents I couldn't find the copper color trace in it like you'd see in coolant. when I opened the filter to clean it that's where the copper colored particles were in the carbon and slime in there. It had gone round with the oil/water mix inside the oil galleries/bearings and that filter got it all out. It kind of makes me think the valve grinding compound would go round the same But the paper filter wouldn't get it all out as those centrifugal filters are far more accurate in what they take out and can tell you how hard an engines been working from carbon deposits between services that paper type won't show.
Great video. There is a difference between oil pressure and volume . No worries with pressure but suffering from lack of volume Wrong pan will suffocate the pump
There is not really a difference. Pressure is an effect of volume. If you have insufficient volume you will never achieve adequate pressure. Pressure is the effect of restriction against the volume of the liquid being moved. Lower the volume and you lower the pressure. Increase the volume and you increase the pressure. Change the viscosity of the liquid and you have to change the volume being moved to maintain the same pressure. Either increase the volume for a thinner liquid or decrease for a thicker liquid. The preceding applies to loss lubrication systems such as the oiling system in an engine. Closed systems the preceding may not apply.
Modern engine won’t take a shallow sump off-roading. My 1958 landrover has a deep 5litre sump and it has HUGE big end bearings. (Like V8 journal width). As the engine guy said, “it’s not how often you run without oil, it’s how fast it makes pressure again.” (Basically how long before a big ends run dry) So you are spot on with dry sump, I did it to my Rover V8 and it is the right thing offroad. It sat at 28 to 40 psi all day no matter what stupid angle we had it Idling at. Basically the customer tried some tricks and they didn’t work out. (And the outcome seen appears to match the modifications mentioned) (as a weird engineering note; ironically you are better with a narrow sump that carries half the oil than wings that let it hide from the pickup)
I'm with the above. I'm used to marine engines and they are specified with deeper sumps to make sure the pump has a chance to keep the suction submerged when the vessel rolls and pitches, which is basically what happens when you ride trail with a car. They can spent quite some time at odd angles in these stages. I would want to know what the suction arrangement for that lub oil pump is. Further does the owner intent to fit the same sump again/same use?
@Barum Engines 32 years on the spanners here guys, That oil pick up pipe 'gasket' is the culprit in my book, What a mess, Why skip on a £2 genuine part? Love your content, Keep it up Fella's!
It would have helped to have the oil filter to open up and see how much rubbish is in there and were the remote oil lines to the filter cleaned out after the first engine let go probably not! but I agree with what you said in your video oil starvation due to the poorly made gasket on the pickup, an oil pump would rather suck in air than oil, also a dry sump would have been a much better idea. Many years ago I worked for an engine re-conditioners and we sold short engines which consisted of rebuilt block, pistons, crank and cam shaft, most camshafts were in the block back then anyway we sold a little A series for a Midget about two week later the engine came back under warranty knocking badly customer claimed, we striped the filthy engine to find none of the parts he had removed from his old engine had been cleaned still a layer of sludge in the bottom of the sump he had evan reused the old filter and oil which was black there is no accounting for the stupidity of some people, when he returned he was shown the door very quickly.
These warranty claims are impossible when one side isn't in control of all the key variables. As an outsider, it seems like if the engine were delivered fully sealed everything and even tested it would make it so much easier for both sides. - You guys work so hard for your money. Love your videos.
I would be interested to see the sump. Wonder if he is having pick up problems if it's that shallow he need to mod the bolts. Is there a pot on it for the pick up and how deep is it? Like you say. Big oil surge issues?
I think you did the right thing taking it back and checking it out. I suspect it is a combination of the problems you mentioned. The flat sump may not be suitable for the highly angled terrain he is using it for. I suspect the the oil pick up is running dry when the vehicle is at extreme angles.
Over the years I have built a few engines, slapping together Nissan/Datsun A12/14 for my Datsun 1200 ute to a couple of stroked 355ci GM V8 not to mention all the sixes and motorbike engines. I'm an not a mechanic I'm a boilermaker by trade and now build guitar amps. My point is some people need to just stay away from engine builds if they are not that technically minded. Manufacturers spend millions of dollars on R and D and typically know best, I just love the way some people seem to know better than the designers. But in this case dry sump warranted and proper gaskets plus recommended oil weight and someone who knows what they are doing.
Just read what you wrote and with all the POOR quality aftermarket parts out there it is near impossible for somebody who does know their trade to do a build. From bad lifters to bad valves, cams and springs. You should not have to machine "new" parts.
Oh Dear Lee. Customer's with a little knowledge can really cause some problems for sure. Don't get me wrong there are some clever self taught people around Burt Munro for starters. Keep the videos coming.
i dont agree it was the spec of the oil . more like the sump he made for it lacks capacity , i do agree a dry sump system is required . also the oil presure relief valve needs to be checked . the split in the gasket would not help but i dont think its the cause at all . the bearing spun because it got hot due to low pressure and not due from the grinding of the bolts
You can’t cover the engine when the sump and other parts are changed. For my money the gasket is the main problem it is a lot easier to pull up air than oil. The engine should always have been dry sump for that type of competition. Good luck with it.
I've never seen a spun bearing due to particles they only spin through oil starvation and overheating I've pulled sumps off with an inch of carbon in them and big ends gone but never a spun one, the low pressure could be a relief valve faulty, 0w30 oil is like water when hot I don't like it at all you need high-pressure oil pumps to get the same protection with it 10 w 40 never had a problem with it, why was the pressure not checked when rebuilt the first time around, he said he wasn't happy with the oil pressure why keep driving it with low oil pressure numpty, the cooler will need cleaning out and all the pipes as well, Good advise DON'T GRIND INSIDE AN ENGINE FFS.
where is the Oil pan and the Pickup tube... i have run into many issues with poorly designed oil pump pickup tube and oil pickup screens.. the pickup not deep enough in the pan.. had one customer made oil pickup... that was made with perforated sheet metal. the holes were tiny and spaced too far apart unlike a screen with the holes the same size but only the thickness of the wire between the holes so there is a lots more surface area... i also HATE flat oil pickup surface shapes.. i like a nice convex shape.. so there is a low pressure area of oil being pulled up.. a flat surface to the pickup screen or grill allows the oil to slide away leaving the pickup exposed. . since he keeps bringing it back.. and it previously expired on the dyno.. something is wrong in the oiling system.. since the engine was rebuilt twice and the oil pump changed several times.. it leads to the Pickup /oil pan issues. excessively thin oil.. question.. have you ever set up an oil pump dynometer.. so you can check the flow rates and pressure at various pump speeds .. used to have an oil pump rebuilder in los angeles that would also take used oil pumps from warranty returns and flow /pressure test them for you.. i would really like you to measure the end gear clearance of the returned pump.. a JPaydirt on youtube ended up with a Peterbuilt dump truck with a Cummins N14 diesel.. pump specs were 4 to 8 thousands of an inch of gear to case end play.. all the replacement pumps and he went thru several trying to find a good one .. china from several brands.. even factory cummins were china pumps with 0.008" end play.. he had the pump housing lapped to take it down to .005 and ended his low pressure oil problems.. there was a video of another tuber building an N14.. washing the pump... the solvent went thru the pump so fast it was like going down a drain. a comment i made on a Circle track or stock car racing magazine a bunch of years ago.. resulted in somebody reading it and on GM revamp of the LS1 the LT1.. they actually build a swiveling engine dyno.. that rotated the engine at various loads to angles that duplicated the forces changing the oil levels around in the pan during acceleration.. cornering and braking. check youtube for Chevy LT1 tilting Dyno.. i don't know if ford in europe has done like ford in america and replaced the oil pressure sending units with a reversed oil pressure switch... open contacts below 5 psi and closed above 7 to move the gauge up off zero part way.. if you end up building another one of these engines for that person.. weld some 6x1.0 nuts to the side of the oil pump pickup.. so the pickup can't be blocked by the oil pan being pulled up by an incorrect PCV system without a crankcase vent system.. without a crankcase vent system.. using a pcv only.. oil pans have been sucked up and blocked the oil pump pickup screen.. had a friend with a race Honda H22 ... insane build.. 14 to 1 compression drag race engine... had a Vacuum sump set up.. it sucked the front crank and aux shaft seals in.. had to find flanged seals.. and glue the rear main seal in place. ended up going to a GM electric smog pump... turned on as he lit the second stage light.. ran a vacuum/turbo boost gauge hooked up to his crankcase.. to make sure he did not over pressurize or over vacuum the crankcase.. causing issues. thinking of that insane raspy honda.. i did a paper napkin drawing of a tuning tube that fit in at the 3 bolt collector after the flex joint.. it tapered the pipe diameter down from 2.5" to 1 3/4" and was almost a foot long. this increased the speed of the exhaust gasses after the collector.. at 7,000 RPM on the hub chassis dynos.. he went from 265 horse power to 275 by just installing the first try at a tuning tube.. also totally changed the way the car sounded. instead of sounding like a raspy honda.. it sounded like a healthy big block chevy. it was insane the difference a tuning tube caused. he had closed loop fuel injection also. so it could compensate for the change in scavenging on the engine and the change in manifold vacuum,
guy was threatening legal action against his previous engine supplier, why would you take this customer on? high touch clients cost more than they're worth.
@@gowdsake7103 Did he bugger around with the first engine, didn't learn his lesson, refitted old contaminated oil system parts and used his DIY skillz on to this engine and the same thing happened again.
A classic example of oil starvation was there silicon in the pick up? the grinding could be a red herring other than it shows the sump is to shallow ! also trials cars end up on there sides regularly. As a technician for a main dealer for 20 years i have seen most tricks and a racer 40 years and race engine top fuel to endurance engine step a way politely.
I've not got a problem with making your own gaskets in principle, maybe a thermostat gasket or at a push a water pump gasket, but on a critical joint where the oil and oil pressure are critical to engine longevity it just doesn't make sense to cobble up a gasket, and for it to be so poorly made, it was just asking for trouble...
Multiple questions .. #1 bearing clearance determines oil weight needed, so what was the clearances? #2 was it line honed? Just a statement proper honing and fresh rings are perfectly fine if the cylinders are round and straight and the cross hatch is proper and the Ra is good, I'm in the middle of the same engine as we speak.
When in this case an engine moves through different hands and possibly different levels of competence and modifications take place you are entering the lions dem, I can understand that you like engines that you have built and have failed to come back to you for analysis but how to attribute blame after the event is almost impossible.
yes, but by doing the forensic analysis he can PROVE it was not done in HIS SHOP. the engines owner can track down who did what, but i'm betting he did it himself.
You said the customer was reasonable, just be straight and honest if someone cannot handle the truth there is nothing more you can do to help. if he is cool provide a solution and see if he want's to go ahead. I feel sorry for him it's a nightmare situation for the owner but its not on you you are kind enough to try to find a solution for him.
This is only my opinion on a side issue. When swapping torque to yield bolts, mains, head bolt etc with ARP for example, wouldn't the ARP bolts be torqued normally, i'e, up to maximum in 3 stages rather than torque to yield process. Any thoughts?
Shallow wide sumps are no good for track work or off road because unless very well baffled, the oil will be able to gather away from pickup during high cornering and steep angles. Dry sump is best choice
I would be questioning pump-pickup to pan clearance...pump pickup too high off bottom of pan and starves or too close to bottom and restricting flow...🤔 Modifying OEM parts is always problematic, always. Like you said, dry sump would be smart call 👍
If the oil pump was changed (and presumably run in the engine for a time) then what condition was that pump in after it was removed ? If it was in good condition compared to the one in the engine when it failed then it tends to rule out any common factors between the two. If the bolts were ground down then surely that must have been before the first pump was fitted ?
I totally agree with you, the remedial reworking carried out post overhaul has to be the main suspect in this case. I find myself questioning the oil sump design? If it is that close to the main studs then the wrong part was modified? I am assuming the studs were touching on some form of baffle/windage tray? There is so much more to a sump than simply collecting the oil. It takes a lot of very clever design to get it right and I question moving away from the OEM units other than with a part from a accredited supplier?
Any engines that I have built for competition I would never give any sort of warranty unless I fitted it in the vehicle, I have seen some appalling things done over the years with dry sump feed pipes the wrong bore and external oil filters connected the wrong way round, and wrong oil filters as some have a non return valve.
Grinder grit in the oil… isn’t that what lapping paste is made from? I bought a Datsun pick up truck years ago. The guy had rebuilt the engine, bored, new pistons, 3- angle valve job, shot peened the rods. All well and good! Except…. About a month down the road, the engine developed deep low knocking sound. Pulled the pan, and decided to check the bearings. There was a red plastic substance in all the oil channels, very confusing at first. Then I realized that he had put the bottom together using Loctite. That is a big no-no. The stuff it got up into all the oil passages. I contacted him about it, but he denied any responsibility. I was able to get the oil pressure back up somewhat, but I never trusted the engine after that. I kept it for about a year and sold it at a loss. Lesson learned!
That gasket would cause a noteworthy pressure drop across it. If it's on the suction side of the pump, this can be serious as the pump can cavitate even without drawing in air through a leak in that gasket. Add in a sump design that sounds like it could allow a lot of "slosh" away from the pickup and this sounds like a perfect storm for oil starvation.
Should there even be a gasket between pump and block ? Oil pumps I've bought for my Chevy instructions state no gasket. I assume it is because they can degrade and contaminate.
Knuckle draggers and their "projects", don't we just love marvelling at their follies. Also once they've spent loads of money on good parts, and then screwed it all up, their "projects" can become cheap "spares or repair" for the rest of us.
Penny wise/pound foolish not to buy a replacement gasket. Didn't one come with the pump? I think the untold story here is that the owner KNEW that he had mucked it up with the metal shavings from grinding... which of course he was embarrassed to state.. and left it to the shop to figure out. Thanks for being upfront! I reused a mangled gasket when replacing a thermostat years ago. It didn't leak, but it ran warm. That lasted until I removed it and found a piece of the gasket blocking the thermostat.
The customer should run a mechanical oil pressure guage and also log oil pressure on ecu. Another bodge with the gasket and all the silicon, plus grinding the studs🤦♂️
That pickup gasket is the killer if you ask me. If that split was in the gasket while its was in place, it would have drawn air preferentially to any oil and it would been a cause of the bearing failure on its own.
Man should learn to change his oil according to use & operating conditions. Shallow sump no matter how wide will limit peak oil pressure especially with stock oil pump🙏
Got the 2litre duratec with shortened sump. You have to cut the original oil pick up pipe which is plastic to make it fit. Before you refit the sump you have to check the clearances and if you get it wrong you will have oil starvation at higher revs as it cannot suck the oil fast enough. Think that's what has happened here. Pick up too close to the bottom of the sump.
So many issues with the sump and the pickup and pickup gasket, probably sucking a little air when centrifugal forces move the oil around. Bearings show signs of starvation or excessive wear spots for the short time this engine ran. Oil weight was light, did it have a cooler for the oil? Maybe some crank work on the oil holes and galleys. The main bolts and grinding them is unbelievable, seams most issues are from the custom pan and sump.
You should only be supplying sealed engines with the sump fitted and ready to install. Then you can walk away confidently and if it's taken apart by the owner or third party for any reason, then you tell them to do one. By getting involved at all even to inspect an engine after an issue you open yourselves to some discussion of fault or blame. Supply sealed engines with the flywheel and sump on, and make it clear that if anything is removed or modified from the as supplied spec that it's the customers problem not yours.
great content az allways i love the channel tuff shit for the guy he shud of left it without tampering whith he probly stud one day in a real mechanics shite and thought he was one
Here in the usa junkyards do this. They use a metal tab I think made of some form of lead. The main point is to see if the engine overheated or was opened. I'm sure they could also just have custom metal warranty stickers made from silicone or another type of plastic . China sells all types of warranty stickers and are happy to make custom ones for not to much money.
Would love to see the oil pan and pickup tube assembly. And the oil filter cut open, send a sample from the filter in for analysis. Anyone run an oil accumulator?
I really liked such analysis of damage on open engine it really was great. It does look like it could be two things like you said either that gasket or those metal bits from grinding.
We do rebulit engine in my garage , we wouldn't rebulit the engine again unless he pays again, I grantee you from experience he most likely won't accept again, but you car try to help him by offering him discounted price... Good Luck
Has anyone checked the oil pick up pipe? you say the sump had been modified so the pick up may have modified also ? and if its been modified as badly as the other mods we have seen???
when you said 2.5L mazda engine, my mind went strait to the KL-ZE 2.5L v6. Killed one of those due to oil starvation. turns out the sumps are not baffled particularly well.
My only point I think I would pick up here is the issue of allowing the customer to lead the build, unless I misunderstood this? Reusing pistons etc. I have done this myself but only when inspecting an engine. A rebuild suggests to me would be hard sold to the customer, so new parts etc re-bore . I have refused work when it is a customers pocket as if it goes wrong it is my pocket that may be emptied. I have learned to say "No sorry, we do it or take it somewhere else". No one might say this is bad business but I find if you are seeking an engineer then your supposed to step back to allow the engineer to work. Managing someone's desires is of course difficult to balance out, for example I rebuilt the top end of a very salt water damaged engine. Got that one running about Europe even today, but when it cam to connecting the 12v charging circuit to allow the domestic bank to charge I said I can't due to a very dangerous installation. I had to draw a line to save myself really from possibly causing fire or injury. But the big no no here is the question of the ground down studs! I photograph my work as i go along, use a google drive and of course UA-cam. They both have proven a valuable resource to ensure sanity. This is my second video to my eyes and have to admit I like the level of work you do. I will look at more of your work as it hits home for me. Thanks for taking the time to make these, I know the effort. Thanks
Without there being enough oil for analysis, it's like trying to solve a crime with the most important evidence missing: the blood. On that point alone it means there's no evidence indicating your being responsible.
Can't tamper with the internals after a rebuild and get a warranty when it rattles.. simple. Soon as you separate that rocker or head it's over to you. ( Unless qualified ) So totally agree with you. The dangers of the hobbiest touching an engine or taking it elsewhere after its rebuild is like Thornton's selling a bag of used Toffees... No chance
That's muppetry Lee why do people treat pieces of precision engineering like that!. Not withstanding the pickup gasket and the grinding off of the studs in situ, what is the sump design like?, (bearing in mind the common factor of both failures appears to be oil starvation related). As you say because of the angles the car will be tilted at in competition dry sump would be the best to make sure the oil supply is uninterrupted. This is the trouble with people doing work themselves who don't have a clue - a lot of them think that it's just a chunk of metal and grinding bits off and a home made sump won't matter - the pickup gasket says it all!. Feel your pain must be a liability doing what you do - I've only ever built and installed and set up the engines for customers, (with two exceptions both of which they messed up doing their own install!). The choice of initial oil wasn't wise either as you say, (although that clearly wasn't the cause of the failure). Best he gets his wallet out again! - hope you can save it.
Don't honour any kind of claim on this engine, he's pissed around with it so it's his problem from here onwards and that homemade gasket and the ground down bits are a major contribution to the damage. I can't get enough of these warranty stories,they beggar belief most of them, thanks for another great video 😊
Make your own gasket = cost saving.
@@forevercomputing Only if you’re _competent._
Note: self-evaluation of this quality is rarely accurate.
Worth asking if he has an oil cooler too. if he has, then it's also likely to be full of debris, and ripe for destroying the next engine too.
Good point.
Was the gasket the main failure point?
😂😂😂😂
@@defresurrection
Ummm, did you watch and listen properly? If not go back and do it again.
@@michaelslee4336 Thanks for the fing help!
Well for a start, the engine was tampered with after it left your shop.
For me, I would keep well away from it and tell the customer that he'll have to foot the bill (upfront) for any future works to the engine.
As long as he has a signed disclaimer absolutely no liability. The age long story... you try to help someone and...
Mains bolts have been ground off in-situ, lol. They made a perfect grinding paste resulting in a new oil pump and the bearing damage. Yep the dodgy gasket will reduce the oil flow. The customer knows he dropped a clanger, that's why he's not blaming you.
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing
I am not wise enough to know, but years ago we ran an Essex V6 in a light car with a front well sump, under hard acceleration it would briefly lose oil pressure. After one too many hard launches from the traffic lights the engine started to knock, it did nothing like this carnage. (We made a baffled sump when we fixed it).
I realise this engine had a home made pump gasket but chances are it was in one piece when fitted. I think you are right on the money, the swarf from the grinding did the pump in. It would be interesting to know if the original oil pump was damaged too. You have to wonder too whether the remote oil filter assembly was contaminated when it was fitted.
A shallow sump on a high revving engine may not be too clever if it has no windage tray and the pickup might have been far from optimal, a shallow sump with a stock pickup will encourage it to pickup crap that would otherwise sit in the bottom of the sump. Was the sump also "clearanced" with a grinder at the last minute?
TBH I think there are too many unknowns to reasonably uphold a warranty claim, the wrong viscosity oil is the least of the problems.
IMHO you can give a bit of "goodwill" but this engine was damaged by subsequent work, not by the original build......
I like your videos. I am an old mechanic from the US. I would never, ever let someone walk out of my shop with an incomplete engine. In fact, I always made sure we installed any engine rebuild in the car before we let it leave. In addition, I would insist as a condition of warranty that they return the car for inspection and oil change after 2000 miles. There is just so much that can go wrong as evidenced by the warranty claims I have seen here. help me understand why you do that, you must have a good reason as you seem to be a very smart guy.
I worked in a machine shop for many years, with each reworked engine we supplied a sheet with running in instructions, the oil to use 'depending' on the engines application & supplied the oil, the onus is then the customer's to follow the instructions to the letter, and if not that was on their head, we also marked all sump & head bolts to deter tampering, and if the markings was found to be disturbed, warranty null and void, it's a minefield now and the reason we sold the business.
In the U.k. And the U.S. You couldnt void a warranty with taper indicating fasteners, not legally. There is the Magnusson moss act in the states and the consumer protection act in the uk. You could try and if the warranty claim was valid and the customer took you to court you would have to show how manipulating the hardware caused the issue. When the customer wins their case, like i said its a valid warranty claim, not only would you have to fulfil all warranty clauses but pay court fees and legal costs of the plaintiff. Even the stickers on consumer electronics that indicate manipulation have no value in court. A, it isnt 100% reliable B, there are nondestructive methods to open electronics C, the sticker doesnt affect functionality. Simply opening something does not break it and the courts in the US and UK have acknowledged this.
@@timothybayliss6680 Granted opening does not mean that it's what's caused the item to be defective, however, I would argue as to the persons abilities, would they have the knowledge to discern or diagnose an issue, & let's suppose it was found they was not, it could be argued as to why it was opened up in the first place, and if they was, why open the unit to then file a warranty claim when it would become impossible for anyone to discern if any tampering was the cause of the issue, and that my friend is why we sold up, the lawyers always get paid win or lose, but come on, opening and modifying parts that clearly should not be is the work of Sunday morning jim under his moggy minor he's been restoring since it was brand new & he's still trying to put it together after changing a flat tyre. Cracking channel by the way.
@@eatsinabeat the last time i had an engine "built" by a shop it pitched a keeper and twisted the oil pump drive during break in. Its probably a good thing it stopped making oil pressure because i shut it down right away. I took the pan off and found a keeper in the bottom.
How well do you think things would have gone for the shop if when i walked in with a picture if the valvespring with only one keeper on it and a twisted pump drive and keeper in my hand they told me that because i took the pan off that they werent going to warranty the build?
Whats is my responsibility here? It stops making oil pressure so i take it out of the vehicle and return the assembly to the shop? How much of my time do i have to invest? Installing the heads isnt terribly difficult but i cant remove the unit that has a malfunction without voiding the warranty either?
Even the inclusion of tamper indicators is potentially a violation of consumer protection act because it assumes that warranty protection is validated based on something that isnt causal to the failure. You make a claim that its Sunday morning Jim that is the one thats going to damage the package through inept modification. That fictional person isnt the customer base of a machine shop of this caliber. Most people involved in the hobby or profession arent grinding mains hardware to fit a pan. Most people that do this and would use this shop for service would know how to swap a cylinder head or pan without causing malfeasance. The evidence of this is the lack of spurious warranty claims.
(1) I would ask the customer who did the grinding (2) also who replaced the oils pump as the gasket has blocking the flow of oil restricting the pressure so changing the pump and leaving the old gasket didn’t sort anything out. (3) who did all this work invalidated your warranty. (4) but as we have the engine in bits we can sort out the problem that’s occurred but in doing so do not accept any liability for damage caused by a third party. Great video it’s nice to see the engines coming in with these problems that have been worked on by so called mechanics. The customer has cocked up but to Embarrassed to admit it. 👍
First up, this is a great channel and your an excellent presenter, second, this engine failure is not your problem as I see it. 🇳🇿
I'd love to see the sump he made/bought, was it baffled? .....and where did he put the pick up? if it's used in a trial car they get to all sort of mad angles, oil starvation , it should have been dry sumped.
I agree with you Dave, he should have dry sumped it, and that grinding dust must have gone everywhere, it certainly would not have helped those bearings/caps etc stay healthy ! the oil from the homemade sump described would not have been good and would've pooled the oil away from everything for too long a time inc' the oil pump leading to insufficient lubrication for too long !!
My thoughts exactly, the modified sump and baffles if any, to many unknowns I like "you broke it you bought it" your a business man you seem to already know the answer time for a divorce.
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I would guess it has been sucking air, either from the crap gasket or due to the poor sump design (most likely cause). Even an oil pump with that much damage will produce good enough oil pressure. The debris damage is consequential in my opinion. I work on off highway engines and anything that needs gradeability (if wet sump) needs / gets a deep well sump. Another thing that would worry me is that the oil pick up pipe has a minimum distance from the sump bottom, beyond that flow can be messed up. And these are usually set close to minimum by design. Messing with the sump clearance would not be good. High level assessment... Would i expect a on highway engine to survive in a off highway application. No!!!. Not without modification. And a shallow sump is not one of those modifications
Grinding away material from the studs and nuts would surely change the torques plus heat and vibration, then add loads of lovley griding dust. Then then the oil starvation gasket, charge him for all your time and some.
My advice for what is worth, give him it back and have no further dealings with the engine, never ending trouble!
On a brighter note, loving the in-depth engineering vids 👍🏻
I had an oil pressure problem on a v6 engine from an 1986 oldsmobile, it was modified for a jeep install, it turned out to be the thickness of the gasket being increased and the sump being elongated. Same damage too. Cork gasket was more than twice as thick as stock, I ended up making a gasket out of a phonebook cover and it worked for years.
Definitely not your fault.
Another great episode
I think you already went beyond !! Good shop !!!
As has been said before, MAKE SURE that a full disclaimer is included in both the estimate for the work, and subsequent bill, as you cannot be responsible for owner's installation, treatment & maintenance of your engines.
And having the decency of taking the engines back for inspection covers your backs, shows goodwill, and both you & the customer can learn from mistakes.
funny how the bearing that spun is between the 2 ground stud's, id say it was grinding wheel dust/metal contamination.
if the studs needed grinding they should have been removed from the engine, never grind near an open engine, grind wheel dust is the worst thing to have inside an engine.
On top of that, reducing the height of the nut can reduce the tension it is capable of effecting on the bearing caps by reducing the grip length, it gets worse if an angle grinder has been used and the nut hasn't been retorqued afterwards.
He said that in the video.
I've heard several stories from older mechanics of valve grinding compound not being good either, when customers have annoyed mechanics in some way. From what I've heard if it's added in motor oil, it will run a while before anything odd turns up. Apparently it can't be traced back to the guy who did it either, but it's expensive revenge against the customer !
@@super6954 old retired mechanic here and never heard that one
@@davelead2742 I heard it about 30 years ago, from a couple guys that were in their late 60's then. I'm not sure how it would work with some modern filter technology now. But I can tell you I had a Russian tractor in here with a centrifugal oil filter. It had liner seals go bad so the guy dumped copper seal leak stopper in it being a cheap fix, It didn't fix the leak like he thought.
it dumped the coolant again a week later. on inspecting the sump contents I couldn't find the copper color trace in it like you'd see in coolant. when I opened the filter to clean it that's where the copper colored particles were in the carbon and slime in there. It had gone round with the oil/water mix inside the oil galleries/bearings and that filter got it all out.
It kind of makes me think the valve grinding compound would go round the same But the paper filter wouldn't get it all out as those centrifugal filters are far more accurate in what they take out and can tell you how hard an engines been working from carbon deposits between services that paper type won't show.
I'm glad it's not just us that has to deal with this stuff
Great video. There is a difference between oil pressure and volume . No worries with pressure but suffering from lack of volume
Wrong pan will suffocate the pump
There is not really a difference. Pressure is an effect of volume. If you have insufficient volume you will never achieve adequate pressure. Pressure is the effect of restriction against the volume of the liquid being moved. Lower the volume and you lower the pressure. Increase the volume and you increase the pressure. Change the viscosity of the liquid and you have to change the volume being moved to maintain the same pressure. Either increase the volume for a thinner liquid or decrease for a thicker liquid. The preceding applies to loss lubrication systems such as the oiling system in an engine. Closed systems the preceding may not apply.
Modern engine won’t take a shallow sump off-roading. My 1958 landrover has a deep 5litre sump and it has HUGE big end bearings. (Like V8 journal width). As the engine guy said, “it’s not how often you run without oil, it’s how fast it makes pressure again.” (Basically how long before a big ends run dry) So you are spot on with dry sump, I did it to my Rover V8 and it is the right thing offroad. It sat at 28 to 40 psi all day no matter what stupid angle we had it Idling at. Basically the customer tried some tricks and they didn’t work out. (And the outcome seen appears to match the modifications mentioned) (as a weird engineering note; ironically you are better with a narrow sump that carries half the oil than wings that let it hide from the pickup)
You again? Are you following me?? Hahah hi from Milo's chat
@@JimLahey21 There’s probably only ten of us commenting on ‘engine in bits’ channels :D I bet you post on Binky and fabrats as well? ^-^
@@teamidris Struth mate you here also!
@@stephenhunter70 I can smell off-highway engine problems :o) It’s the combination of burnt oil and melted white metal :D
I'm with the above. I'm used to marine engines and they are specified with deeper sumps to make sure the pump has a chance to keep the suction submerged when the vessel rolls and pitches, which is basically what happens when you ride trail with a car. They can spent quite some time at odd angles in these stages. I would want to know what the suction arrangement for that lub oil pump is. Further does the owner intent to fit the same sump again/same use?
@Barum Engines 32 years on the spanners here guys, That oil pick up pipe 'gasket' is the culprit in my book, What a mess, Why skip on a £2 genuine part? Love your content, Keep it up Fella's!
Give the engine back to him along with a bill for inspection report.
i would wont to see sump & pick-up. prime place to look when these items get diy'ed
It would have helped to have the oil filter to open up and see how much rubbish is in there and were the remote oil lines to the filter cleaned out after the first engine let go probably not! but I agree with what you said in your video oil starvation due to the poorly made gasket on the pickup, an oil pump would rather suck in air than oil, also a dry sump would have been a much better idea. Many years ago I worked for an engine re-conditioners and we sold short engines which consisted of rebuilt block, pistons, crank and cam shaft, most camshafts were in the block back then anyway we sold a little A series for a Midget about two week later the engine came back under warranty knocking badly customer claimed, we striped the filthy engine to find none of the parts he had removed from his old engine had been cleaned still a layer of sludge in the bottom of the sump he had evan reused the old filter and oil which was black there is no accounting for the stupidity of some people, when he returned he was shown the door very quickly.
These warranty claims are impossible when one side isn't in control of all the key variables. As an outsider, it seems like if the engine were delivered fully sealed everything and even tested it would make it so much easier for both sides. - You guys work so hard for your money. Love your videos.
Looks like signs of rust on the crank webs, any chance the oil got contaminated with water and he flushed engine before bringing it in?
I would be interested to see the sump. Wonder if he is having pick up problems if it's that shallow he need to mod the bolts. Is there a pot on it for the pick up and how deep is it? Like you say. Big oil surge issues?
I think you did the right thing taking it back and checking it out. I suspect it is a combination of the problems you mentioned. The flat sump may not be suitable for the highly angled terrain he is using it for. I suspect the
the oil pick up is running dry when the vehicle is at extreme angles.
be worth you looking into security seals must be a way to install under a bolt or connect two together < heads or oil pans>
Over the years I have built a few engines, slapping together Nissan/Datsun A12/14 for my Datsun 1200 ute to a couple of stroked 355ci GM V8 not to mention all the sixes and motorbike engines. I'm an not a mechanic I'm a boilermaker by trade and now build guitar amps.
My point is some people need to just stay away from engine builds if they are not that technically minded. Manufacturers spend millions of dollars on R and D and typically know best, I just love the way some people seem to know better than the designers. But in this case dry sump warranted and proper gaskets plus recommended oil weight and someone who knows what they are doing.
Just read what you wrote and with all the POOR quality aftermarket parts out there it is near impossible for somebody who does know their trade to do a build. From bad lifters to bad valves, cams and springs. You should not have to machine "new" parts.
Top video such a humble guy!
i think you have gone above and beyond the video doesnt lie
Sounds like a free breakdown and inspection is plenty on your part. Agree with others that too much work was performed after it left your shop.
I think the best thing for that is throw it in the skip and tell him to collect it .
Oh Dear Lee.
Customer's with a little knowledge can really cause some problems for sure.
Don't get me wrong there are some clever self taught people around Burt Munro for starters.
Keep the videos coming.
i dont agree it was the spec of the oil . more like the sump he made for it lacks capacity , i do agree a dry sump system is required . also the oil presure relief valve needs to be checked . the split in the gasket would not help but i dont think its the cause at all . the bearing spun because it got hot due to low pressure and not due from the grinding of the bolts
You can’t cover the engine when the sump and other parts are changed.
For my money the gasket is the main problem it is a lot easier to pull up air than oil.
The engine should always have been dry sump for that type of competition.
Good luck with it.
I've never seen a spun bearing due to particles they only spin through oil starvation and overheating I've pulled sumps off with an inch of carbon in them and big ends gone but never a spun one, the low pressure could be a relief valve faulty, 0w30 oil is like water when hot I don't like it at all you need high-pressure oil pumps to get the same protection with it 10 w 40 never had a problem with it, why was the pressure not checked when rebuilt the first time around, he said he wasn't happy with the oil pressure why keep driving it with low oil pressure numpty, the cooler will need cleaning out and all the pipes as well, Good advise DON'T GRIND INSIDE AN ENGINE FFS.
I would want it back to inspect also!!!
He has messed with it no way your fault. Gasket would be drawing air for sure. You have done the decent thing looking at it. Love the channel 👍
I agree with Adam, he changed the oil pump and that voided any and all warranties on the engine.
If they used a grinder the disc on grinder produces a lot of abrasive dust
where is the Oil pan and the Pickup tube... i have run into many issues with poorly designed oil pump pickup tube and oil pickup screens.. the pickup not deep enough in the pan.. had one customer made oil pickup... that was made with perforated sheet metal. the holes were tiny and spaced too far apart unlike a screen with the holes the same size but only the thickness of the wire between the holes so there is a lots more surface area...
i also HATE flat oil pickup surface shapes.. i like a nice convex shape.. so there is a low pressure area of oil being pulled up.. a flat surface to the pickup screen or grill allows the oil to slide away leaving the pickup exposed. .
since he keeps bringing it back.. and it previously expired on the dyno.. something is wrong in the oiling system.. since the engine was rebuilt twice and the oil pump changed several times.. it leads to the Pickup /oil pan issues. excessively thin oil..
question.. have you ever set up an oil pump dynometer.. so you can check the flow rates and pressure at various pump speeds .. used to have an oil pump rebuilder in los angeles that would also take used oil pumps from warranty returns and flow /pressure test them for you..
i would really like you to measure the end gear clearance of the returned pump.. a JPaydirt on youtube ended up with a Peterbuilt dump truck with a Cummins N14 diesel.. pump specs were 4 to 8 thousands of an inch of gear to case end play.. all the replacement pumps and he went thru several trying to find a good one .. china from several brands.. even factory cummins were china pumps with 0.008" end play.. he had the pump housing lapped to take it down to .005 and ended his low pressure oil problems.. there was a video of another tuber building an N14.. washing the pump... the solvent went thru the pump so fast it was like going down a drain.
a comment i made on a Circle track or stock car racing magazine a bunch of years ago.. resulted in somebody reading it and on GM revamp of the LS1 the LT1.. they actually build a swiveling engine dyno.. that rotated the engine at various loads to angles that duplicated the forces changing the oil levels around in the pan during acceleration.. cornering and braking. check youtube for Chevy LT1 tilting Dyno.. i don't know if ford in europe has done like ford in america and replaced the oil pressure sending units with a reversed oil pressure switch... open contacts below 5 psi and closed above 7 to move the gauge up off zero part way..
if you end up building another one of these engines for that person.. weld some 6x1.0 nuts to the side of the oil pump pickup.. so the pickup can't be blocked by the oil pan being pulled up by an incorrect PCV system without a crankcase vent system.. without a crankcase vent system.. using a pcv only.. oil pans have been sucked up and blocked the oil pump pickup screen..
had a friend with a race Honda H22 ... insane build.. 14 to 1 compression drag race engine... had a Vacuum sump set up.. it sucked the front crank and aux shaft seals in.. had to find flanged seals.. and glue the rear main seal in place. ended up going to a GM electric smog pump... turned on as he lit the second stage light.. ran a vacuum/turbo boost gauge hooked up to his crankcase.. to make sure he did not over pressurize or over vacuum the crankcase.. causing issues.
thinking of that insane raspy honda.. i did a paper napkin drawing of a tuning tube that fit in at the 3 bolt collector after the flex joint.. it tapered the pipe diameter down from 2.5" to 1 3/4" and was almost a foot long. this increased the speed of the exhaust gasses after the collector.. at 7,000 RPM on the hub chassis dynos.. he went from 265 horse power to 275 by just installing the first try at a tuning tube.. also totally changed the way the car sounded. instead of sounding like a raspy honda.. it sounded like a healthy big block chevy. it was insane the difference a tuning tube caused. he had closed loop fuel injection also. so it could compensate for the change in scavenging on the engine and the change in manifold vacuum,
Love forensics. Whether medical or mechanical. Just subed!
guy was threatening legal action against his previous engine supplier, why would you take this customer on? high touch clients cost more than they're worth.
My thoughts exactly I suspect he buggered around with it when he got it back
@@gowdsake7103 Did he bugger around with the first engine, didn't learn his lesson, refitted old contaminated oil system parts and used his DIY skillz on to this engine and the same thing happened again.
Yup. For trials you need a deep narrow sump (dry sump preferred) a shallow wide sump is guaranteed to wreak an engine.
Maybe an idea to video the work carried out on every job and keep 1 copy for your records.
A classic example of oil starvation was there silicon in the pick up? the grinding could be a red herring other than it shows the sump is to shallow ! also trials cars end up on there sides regularly. As a technician for a main dealer for 20 years i have seen most tricks and a racer 40 years and race engine top fuel to endurance engine step a way politely.
I've not got a problem with making your own gaskets in principle, maybe a thermostat gasket or at a push a water pump gasket, but on a critical joint where the oil and oil pressure are critical to engine longevity it just doesn't make sense to cobble up a gasket, and for it to be so poorly made, it was just asking for trouble...
Multiple questions ..
#1 bearing clearance determines oil weight needed, so what was the clearances?
#2 was it line honed?
Just a statement proper honing and fresh rings are perfectly fine if the cylinders are round and straight and the cross hatch is proper and the Ra is good, I'm in the middle of the same engine as we speak.
When in this case an engine moves through different hands and possibly different levels of competence and modifications take place you are entering the lions dem, I can understand that you like engines that you have built and have failed to come back to you for analysis but how to attribute blame after the event is almost impossible.
yes, but by doing the forensic analysis he can PROVE it was not done in HIS SHOP.
the engines owner can track down who did what, but i'm betting he did it himself.
Would like to see the oil reservoir first, but I also expect the grinding debris to be the culprit for the failure
You said the customer was reasonable, just be straight and honest if someone cannot handle the truth there is nothing more you can do to help. if he is cool provide a solution and see if he want's to go ahead. I feel sorry for him it's a nightmare situation for the owner but its not on you you are kind enough to try to find a solution for him.
This is only my opinion on a side issue. When swapping torque to yield bolts, mains, head bolt etc with ARP for example, wouldn't the ARP bolts be torqued normally, i'e, up to maximum in 3 stages rather than torque to yield process. Any thoughts?
I'm glad we are not the only ones who deal with these muppets :D
Even a small leak on the pickup tube will cause big problems. Ford/vw/audi use orings to seal them which I like better than the old paper gaskets
You are to kind, but I understand, your point, in Sweden you can say I dont care, but we help of course!
The costumer is always right round the bend in this case probably a friend said to him we can mode this for next to nothing and that won’t he has now
Shallow wide sump for a trial car...
Oh, and lets add some ground metal too !
Shallow wide sumps are no good for track work or off road because unless very well baffled, the oil will be able to gather away from pickup during high cornering and steep angles. Dry sump is best choice
I would be questioning pump-pickup to pan clearance...pump pickup too high off bottom of pan and starves or too close to bottom and restricting flow...🤔 Modifying OEM parts is always problematic, always. Like you said, dry sump would be smart call 👍
If the oil pump was changed (and presumably run in the engine for a time) then what condition was that pump in after it was removed ? If it was in good condition compared to the one in the engine when it failed then it tends to rule out any common factors between the two. If the bolts were ground down then surely that must have been before the first pump was fitted ?
That "gasket" is bloody horrible.
As for grinding the studs in situ...😱
Isn't it amazing that anything the customer did couldn't possibly have caused any of their problems?
Wonder if there was enough clearance between the sump and oil pick up seeming as the sump was after market
I would imagine the studs were ground off to give a little more clearance once the non standard sump was fitted ?
I totally agree with you, the remedial reworking carried out post overhaul has to be the main suspect in this case. I find myself questioning the oil sump design? If it is that close to the main studs then the wrong part was modified? I am assuming the studs were touching on some form of baffle/windage tray? There is so much more to a sump than simply collecting the oil. It takes a lot of very clever design to get it right and I question moving away from the OEM units other than with a part from a accredited supplier?
Any engines that I have built for competition I would never give any sort of warranty unless I fitted it in the vehicle, I have seen some appalling things done over the years with dry sump feed pipes the wrong bore and external oil filters connected the wrong way round, and wrong oil filters as some have a non return valve.
Grinder grit in the oil… isn’t that what lapping paste is made from?
I bought a Datsun pick up truck years ago. The guy had rebuilt the engine, bored, new pistons, 3- angle valve job, shot peened the rods. All well and good! Except…. About a month down the road, the engine developed deep low knocking sound. Pulled the pan, and decided to check the bearings. There was a red plastic substance in all the oil channels, very confusing at first. Then I realized that he had put the bottom together using Loctite. That is a big no-no. The stuff it got up into all the oil passages. I contacted him about it, but he denied any responsibility. I was able to get the oil pressure back up somewhat, but I never trusted the engine after that. I kept it for about a year and sold it at a loss. Lesson learned!
That gasket would cause a noteworthy pressure drop across it. If it's on the suction side of the pump, this can be serious as the pump can cavitate even without drawing in air through a leak in that gasket. Add in a sump design that sounds like it could allow a lot of "slosh" away from the pickup and this sounds like a perfect storm for oil starvation.
Should there even be a gasket between pump and block ?
Oil pumps I've bought for my Chevy instructions state no gasket. I assume it is because they can degrade and contaminate.
Knuckle draggers and their "projects", don't we just love marvelling at their follies. Also once they've spent loads of money on good parts, and then screwed it all up, their "projects" can become cheap "spares or repair" for the rest of us.
Penny wise/pound foolish not to buy a replacement gasket. Didn't one come with the pump? I think the untold story here is that the owner KNEW that he had mucked it up with the metal shavings from grinding... which of course he was embarrassed to state.. and left it to the shop to figure out. Thanks for being upfront!
I reused a mangled gasket when replacing a thermostat years ago. It didn't leak, but it ran warm. That lasted until I removed it and found a piece of the gasket blocking the thermostat.
Everyone is an expert.
Cut open oil filter and check with magnet as I would think grinding particles will be present = oil contamination plus that crap gasket!
I would have a good look at his filter and pressure relief valve. Something is wrong there.
The customer should run a mechanical oil pressure guage and also log oil pressure on ecu. Another bodge with the gasket and all the silicon, plus grinding the studs🤦♂️
That pickup gasket is the killer if you ask me. If that split was in the gasket while its was in place, it would have drawn air preferentially to any oil and it would been a cause of the bearing failure on its own.
Man should learn to change his oil according to use & operating conditions. Shallow sump no matter how wide will limit peak oil pressure especially with stock oil pump🙏
Did you nitride the crank after grinding?
Got the 2litre duratec with shortened sump. You have to cut the original oil pick up pipe which is plastic to make it fit. Before you refit the sump you have to check the clearances and if you get it wrong you will have oil starvation at higher revs as it cannot suck the oil fast enough. Think that's what has happened here. Pick up too close to the bottom of the sump.
So many issues with the sump and the pickup and pickup gasket, probably sucking a little air when centrifugal forces move the oil around. Bearings show signs of starvation or excessive wear spots for the short time this engine ran. Oil weight was light, did it have a cooler for the oil? Maybe some crank work on the oil holes and galleys. The main bolts and grinding them is unbelievable, seams most issues are from the custom pan and sump.
You should only be supplying sealed engines with the sump fitted and ready to install. Then you can walk away confidently and if it's taken apart by the owner or third party for any reason, then you tell them to do one. By getting involved at all even to inspect an engine after an issue you open yourselves to some discussion of fault or blame. Supply sealed engines with the flywheel and sump on, and make it clear that if anything is removed or modified from the as supplied spec that it's the customers problem not yours.
Total crazy why do these people mess around with engines
Then you would find more in the bottom of sump or drain plug.
great content az allways i love the channel tuff shit for the guy he shud of left it without tampering whith he probly stud one day in a real mechanics shite and thought he was one
Seems like more often than not, the customer is their own worst enemy.
100% warranty void.
Would be nice if you could fit some sort of warranty seal to all joints/gaskets to cover yourselfs in the event of silly claims.
Here in the usa junkyards do this. They use a metal tab I think made of some form of lead. The main point is to see if the engine overheated or was opened. I'm sure they could also just have custom metal warranty stickers made from silicone or another type of plastic . China sells all types of warranty stickers and are happy to make custom ones for not to much money.
@@linuxlinux9914 uv indelible ink. Wax seal.
Would love to see the oil pan and pickup tube assembly. And the oil filter cut open, send a sample from the filter in for analysis. Anyone run an oil accumulator?
I really liked such analysis of damage on open engine it really was great.
It does look like it could be two things like you said either that gasket or those metal bits from grinding.
We do rebulit engine in my garage , we wouldn't rebulit the engine again unless he pays again, I grantee you from experience he most likely won't accept again, but you car try to help him by offering him discounted price...
Good Luck
Looks like a sump problem plus obvious gasket and bolt grinding
How low was the pick up pipe in the sump? we've had problems in the past with modified sumps being to close and causing starvation of oil
"Sounded like a one man band' made me laugh much harder than it probably should have but I am stealing that one, nice. :)
Has anyone checked the oil pick up pipe? you say the sump had been modified so the pick up may have modified also ? and if its been modified as badly as the other mods we have seen???
when you said 2.5L mazda engine, my mind went strait to the KL-ZE 2.5L v6. Killed one of those due to oil starvation. turns out the sumps are not baffled particularly well.
My only point I think I would pick up here is the issue of allowing the customer to lead the build, unless I misunderstood this? Reusing pistons etc. I have done this myself but only when inspecting an engine. A rebuild suggests to me would be hard sold to the customer, so new parts etc re-bore . I have refused work when it is a customers pocket as if it goes wrong it is my pocket that may be emptied. I have learned to say "No sorry, we do it or take it somewhere else". No one might say this is bad business but I find if you are seeking an engineer then your supposed to step back to allow the engineer to work. Managing someone's desires is of course difficult to balance out, for example I rebuilt the top end of a very salt water damaged engine. Got that one running about Europe even today, but when it cam to connecting the 12v charging circuit to allow the domestic bank to charge I said I can't due to a very dangerous installation. I had to draw a line to save myself really from possibly causing fire or injury.
But the big no no here is the question of the ground down studs! I photograph my work as i go along, use a google drive and of course UA-cam. They both have proven a valuable resource to ensure sanity.
This is my second video to my eyes and have to admit I like the level of work you do. I will look at more of your work as it hits home for me. Thanks for taking the time to make these, I know the effort.
Thanks
Without there being enough oil for analysis, it's like trying to solve a crime with the most important evidence missing: the blood. On that point alone it means there's no evidence indicating your being responsible.
Can't tamper with the internals after a rebuild and get a warranty when it rattles.. simple. Soon as you separate that rocker or head it's over to you. ( Unless qualified )
So totally agree with you.
The dangers of the hobbiest touching an engine or taking it elsewhere after its rebuild is like Thornton's selling a bag of used Toffees... No chance
That's muppetry Lee why do people treat pieces of precision engineering like that!.
Not withstanding the pickup gasket and the grinding off of the studs in situ, what is the sump design like?, (bearing in mind the common factor of both failures appears to be oil starvation related).
As you say because of the angles the car will be tilted at in competition dry sump would be the best to make sure the oil supply is uninterrupted.
This is the trouble with people doing work themselves who don't have a clue - a lot of them think that it's just a chunk of metal and grinding bits off and a home made sump won't matter - the pickup gasket says it all!.
Feel your pain must be a liability doing what you do - I've only ever built and installed and set up the engines for customers, (with two exceptions both of which they messed up doing their own install!).
The choice of initial oil wasn't wise either as you say, (although that clearly wasn't the cause of the failure).
Best he gets his wallet out again! - hope you can save it.