I feel like, just given that these are wasps, fire should be a weakness as well, or specifically have a more narrative weakness of anything that produces smoke (e.g., smoke and heat from a torch gives them clumsy or off-guard or something.) I'm always in favor of monsters with odd weaknesses or means of being shut down.
This probably should not be a level 4 creature. Level 5, maybe. That being said, this is one reason why it's good to have an alchemist in your party. That splash damage will do things to swarms that it's really hard to be able to do through other means. Make some bombs and hand them out to all your martials who can throw them.
I prepared one of these to show up in the Troubles in Otari beachhouse after the party cleared out the Beginner Box. I did check and make sure they had ways to deal with it (summoner had access to runic body to get through resistance and the gunslinger had elemental ammo for splash damage). I had Olli on standby if they needed help. Sadly, I never got to use it because the session was running too long and it'd be awkward to have just one fight at the start of the next session before closing the chapter and starting up downtime.
I don't doubt it at all. It's clear that this is a mean combo, especially for level 2 players. I was more commenting on something prompting this video. Like you or a player of yours dying to one.@@PsiPrimeProductions1
Swarms in general seem to have this effect. Had a centipede swarm kill one of my lvl 2 players. You need to be cautious with the party compositions when using resources if you’re…WTF is that DC?!
I have a feeling wasp swarms punch above their weight due to association with Calistria. On Golarion, one never does a dine and dash at a brothel without a lot of backup, and who the heck is backing you up for that, and more importantly, why?
1-action area effects are typically supposed to deal much less damage than 2-action area effects, as are area effects that inflict significant effects/conditions. Despite Swaming Stings fitting both criteria, the area damage used is only one level below what's expected for a level 4 unlimited use area effect. Perhaps it's meant to make up for the swarm's low HP and AC? Resistances and immunities aside, it's quite brittle.
Unless the DM only plays encounters in a kill-or-die method, players can run from a fight instead of trying to shoot arrows or hit with swords at thousands of bees. If you do not have the ressources to burn them all with splash weapons (which any alchemist, wizard or sorcerer might have), fleeing is a good strategy. There are countless ways to protect yourself from encounters without having to destroy them (going underwater, smoke screens, etc). That being said, the Venom and Save DCs definitely hits differently for a simple swarm of wasps. Just removing that aspect would balance things out. Either that, or these wasps are extra-special.
Assuming you have the resources or environmental factors at play to be able to do that. If you don't have a river nearby or the materials to create a dense smoke you're fucked because they out speed you and wasps are a horribly aggressive species that will follow you home and destroy you if they have the chance, And they will with their 40ft fly speed against a level 2 party with limited resources. Most people don't know they'll be ambushed by specific monsters, and few people would assume a wasp swarm is a threat to a team of adventurers leading to most parties playing the game normally taking too significant damage to escape without someone dying. It's also entirely possible for the ambush to down the party's AoE damage dealer in the first round of combat.
@@tjcross2 Even if the encounter is taking place in a blank, featureless landscape with no foliage to Sneak through and no water to submerge yourself in, why would the wasps want to keep chasing you? The nest is saved. Mission accomplished.
@@SuperParkourio Wasps are a hyper-aggressive species of insects, on top of that we're talking about a stat block that can KILL someone in 1-2 rounds and, being a hyper aggressive swarm would logically stick to a target until dead. The rest of the party would be fine but they have to sacrifice that party member which few parties are willing to do because, it fucking blows to run away and let your friend die.
I think it would be fair to nerf the damage output, but have you tried to shoot a swarm of bees with a gun? I think it's safe to say that it doesn't do a lot of damage. :3
@@PsiPrimeProductions1 I think it might just be a good rule of thumb, to increase the level of swarm creatures by one without stat increases and reduce their damage die by one size, by default. And maybe also introduce some equipment such as a beekeeper suit, or something like that specifically to combat swarms. Because having the right equipment for the right job is important. However, I find that Pathfinder 2e has been quite lacking in the equipment department like there isn't even a grooming/hygiene kit. :3
This video gave me a villain idea for a homebrew adventure (feel free to steal). - Level 2 party hears of a man wearing burlap terrorizing the town. - Party investigates, but the people they get information from keep getting murdered. - Party discovers that there's been a yellowjacket wasp in every room where they've questioned someone. - Party follows a wasp to a secret hideout. - Party finds the burlap man (Pick a Level 2 monster, use Night Before Christmas's Oogie Boogie for token art). - Party reduces burlap man to zero Hit Points. - Burlap man shrieks "MY BUGS!" as burlap is cut open. - Wasp Swarm emerges from now-inert burlap and takes Burlap man's place in the initiative. - Party fights and (hopefully) defeats Wasp Swarm. - Award 120 XP.
I had an interesting thought. How would these things interact with a cleric of Calistra? Aka the savored sting? Since wasps are her sacred animal. As they are both beautiful to her [somehow] and have a penchant for revenge if wronged.
A swarm of bees was one of my two closest brushes with having a PC die in PF2e, but I think it's a perfectly fine monster, as long as both the PCs and GM treat the encounter realistically. If either side treats the fight as a "kill or die" scenario you run the risk of a TPK. Really, a swarm of bees will only chase you for so long - their goal is to drive away a threat to the hive, not kill everything in sight.
Thank you so much! I tried out Elite Wasp Swarm on two 7-level PCs yesterday - and it was AMAZING! Even the confrontation with the devil was not so intense and feel so epic!
@@PsiPrimeProductions1 probably, considering that from the elite version two 7-lvl PC almost went to heaven :D But I'm not sad: we got a true Legend...
The monster itself is fine for its level, the danger comes from adhering to the encoutner building advice and being an inexperienced GM or author in case of the Adventure Paths. It has a bunch of abilities and resistances/immunities that are incredibly specific which the average level 2 party won't have the means to counter at that point. So yeah, Party Level +2 is generally ok advice, but make sure not to pick anything hyper-specialized as your boss encounter, because that could easily count as being PL+6 rather than +2.
Fair enough for all of this, but I do think this is less a case of a crazy monster and more of a general "at levels 1-2 a +2 is WAY bigger of a difficultly jump than it would be at any time later". Which is a good thing to know for PF2 as a GM anyways.
I currently have a level 4 Swashbucker ... he can do no damage to this at all .... and will take damage ... so if our DM uses this he is running ... free action to shout "run!" at the party ...
Let’s try to hide spoilers okay? There is a reason I didn’t mention which APs had wasp swarms. That being said, when I played it, our group wasn’t so lucky. We lost our bard and that was our GM being nice.
Always have Area damage in a party, while fighting swarms never stay and bang. They never have reactions. And you can react strike this to the hell and back. 45hp can be one shoted by many 1 level characters btw. It is a nasty bubu to face while being weaker though so, I agree with your tips xD
It's also just a way to kill off your party if they are new to Pathfinder 2, as they may not know your tips. I don't know of ANY character that can 1-shot a 45 HP monster at level 1 with DR 7. Also, remember their bonkers high reflex save so there's a good chance they'll crit save against any area attack you throw at them.
And that's why you run away and use some form of in game logic. Because gamemaster's shouldn't be dumb as heck oO I can easily see my group running away, wasp that stung now die, so the damage they do to everyone, they do to themselfes too. Yes, yes, wasps can sting multiple times but I am the gamemaster and when I say wasps are pink, they are pink. And ultimatively, at least if the party was warned enough times and they 'awoke the beast', I don't want to kill my party - Unless they really deserve it, be it through heroic actions or extremely dumb decisions. If you look at it solely on a rules-combat-nothing-else way, well, they're extremely strong. I always tend to have "run away" enounters to extremely cocky groups. This is absolutely a creature you can send against level 2 parties. Use in-game logic and if it isn't fun, change it. Because as in real life, wasp swarms are extremely dangerous. And if your party is really dumb enough to run together, tighly packed, you can send a message - not a tpk message, but a message they will remember forever. Don't let people die because "rules are rules". Use whatever you like, spice it up and your party will learn that running away, even if monsters are faster, stronger, better, harder (you did it in their voice, eh? :P) - Ultimatively it's the decision of the gamemaster. But yeah. Swarms is nothing you should laugh at. I use them very, very sparingly. Stay crunchy.
I mean yes, but also, like I said in the video, the swarm is faster than almost any character can be at that level. So, like, most players will see that as a no-go.
Yeah, swarms are nasty. They're too binary to be used as bosses. Alchemists will trivialize them, some casters have an easy time, and Thaumaturges treat them like a normal enemy, while most other martials are neutered and precision-based characters are helpless
The point I was trying to say was that is just casually thrown against level 2 characters with no pomp or circumstance, and that it's greatest 'weakness' can be mitigated 25% of the time. So if it rolls well against a wizard's breathe fire spell, that could be curtains for the party. It's not just difficult for a level 2 group, but in some cases, near-insurmountable.
Question about these things since I haven't actually played any PF2 yet... But learning about flying creatures, does it require an action each round to remain flying each round? Does that only allow it to get two attacks tops, not three, or does the language "Each enemy in their space" imply that it works if they land as they still cover that entire large space?
Eh, for swarms it's kinda hit-and-miss. You are really getting into the nitty-gritty of rules when you do that. But to answer your question, TECHNICALLY the swarm can land, as it has a land speed, and sting everyone three times if they are on the ground, then if the people start running, it can start flying, landing any round it doesn't spend a move action to fly.
@@PsiPrimeProductions1 Okay. I was just wondering if there might have been a design intention to have it waste an action flying that would weaken it to be less deadly
@PsiPrimeProductions1 lol I guess. It's funny to imagine a world where stepping on a wasp nest can wipe out an entire village tho. If I find a wasp nest in my gazebo I'm fucking moving to the next town I'll tell you that.
Many of the points this video makes against this monster seem to come down to "But what if the players don't have the right tools?" Well, you die; that's what. The math of the game expects that players will have a toolset varied enough to take on a wide variety of problems in addition to having good tactics. This is trickier at level 1, but not impossible. - No alchemist? Buy some bombs. - Ranged attacks aren't doing enough damage? Use melee instead. - Dexterity martials aren't doing enough damage? They don't have to dump Strength. - Sneak attack isn't working? Use Aid reactions to buff other party members. - The remaster lowered the default Aid DC from 20 to 15, so this is an even better option now. - Can't outrun the enemy? Maybe you can Hide and Sneak away. - Enemy is flying too fast? Jump in a lake.
I mean, you are free to interpret things as you see fit, but I think you are vastly overestimating the resources players have at level 2. Acid vials and alchemist fires are expensive and unless you have alchemical crafting, you can't get access to them outside of a town, and many APs don't give you many towns to go into. And both APs where you encounter the wasps have no bodies of water nearby to jump into. Not to mention, newer players will have just hit level 2 and do not know about these issues. So they just get to level 2 and then die and your response is what, ' you should have psychically intuited that this was going to happen?' Seems like a good way to drive people away from this hobby to me. But you do you.
I've heard that argument before, and personally, I'm not a fan. For one, I had a party that almost TPKed to this thing and we bought as much acid and alchemist fires as we could afford and still almost died (and our bard did die). The thing is just unreasonably tough for low-level players. Also, some adventures/APs don't let you go to town before reaching level 3 or so. Also also, remember, these are things encountered at very low level, so there is a decent chance you may have a new pathfinder player or three at your table, and there's no way for newer players to know that. At that point you are basically killing a new player who had NO way to know that mechanic of the game. If you take that 'you should have known better' attitude, then kicking them when they are down by saying killing their character and blaming them for it. Sounds like a good way to loose a new player to me.
@@PsiPrimeProductions1 as a GM, I'd definitely include some acid, alchemist fire, or something similar as treasure for a low level party in an AP that had swarms with no ability to buy them. Maybe include a scroll with an AoE spell or two. I'd give them the means to defeat the swarms, but sometimes crits happen and PCs die. It can happen with ocs with a greataxe.
I agree but also disagree, swarms are like fireballs, spread the hell out and you don't die. Also a great reason to be like the pictures in Pathfinder books, and always be carrying 12-30 different weapons, bombs etc. I mean, look at that low-ass AC. Look at it! Attack items like bombs, even weak lvl 1 bombs, spam a few, problem is solved. I mean, as Professor X says to Wolverine: ".. or Storm flies over and sucks him into a hurricane. Into a god-damned hurricane. 2 seconds, problem solved."
I mean, the "It's too fast you can't run" and "It kills the whole party" are two separate concepts that are completely resolved by not forming the party like a friggin clot. You're not girls on their way to high school, you're adventurers, act like it!
Sorry, this has been an expression of the RPG learning curve, which is fairly shallow with P2E compared to say 3rd Edition, where you're an idiot who lost the game because you didn't add the appropriate level of monk to your build. In this case, it's monster fighting 101: If it has a strength, nullify it. If it has a weakness, exploit it. Swarms tend to have both in spades.
Look, obviously you don't like the content. You are free not to. I have my opinion and you have yours. But your comments are becoming increasingly toxic and seem to have a 'blame the party for not metagaming' mentality. If that is how you want to act, I suggest you take your toxicity elsewhere. There are a bunch of ways to dissect your arguments like 'players don't know it's stats' or 'what if it gets the drop on the party and attacks them with it's higher perception, so they don't have a chance to spread out' but I don't think you will listen. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but it's obvious you either dislike this content, or want to stir things up here by berating people. Either way, this is not the channel for you, clearly. I invite you to look elsewhere.
@@PsiPrimeProductions1, in turn, I invite you to reread every one of my comments in an Australian accent, realise there's at least 8 layers of irony on top of a bunch of self effacing humor and try not to read disagreement as some kind of personal attack. As an aside, and dropping all banter and all culture for a moment, I'd like to point out that this is UA-cam, a place where a content creator can labor for 10 years to end up with one comment on one video that simply reads "Lame" and are thankful for the engagement. For some reason your videos come up in my feed, and I watch, like and never comment on many, as my sense of humor doesn't mesh well with positive comments, so a quick point: The last video of yours I watched before this one had me building a Hobgoblin archer (off a fighter framework) because I'd never come across the Phalanx Piercer. If your channel had more humor I might comment positively, but that's not your thing and that's okay. As to the "Not everyone metagames" thing, one tip that came from me leaving that comment and sharing it with my family was the simple joy of having come up with the "Adventurer Lore" skill, and it's many but specific applications, to whit basic go to moves for all common well known monsters and types. -5 to DC for recall knowledge for specific questions like "How does every story describe the adventurers fighting a big green thing that regenerates relentlessly?" giving the answer of "It's a troll, and use fire.". Same would go for swarms, though I'd point out it depends on the players, their characters and their priorities. I know no-one likes to be told how they could have not wiped while they're still emotional about the wipe. I know that because one thing gamers learn to cope with is just that: When complaining about the wipe, people who know how not to die will share that, which feels like invalidation of your pain and frustration. It's like they're saying "If you did X you wouldn't have died.". Which is also the only information that separates everyone who ever lived from everyone who ever died in that scenario, with the rare exceptions of collective bad rolling days, which happen to everyone. Maybe I sound like I lack compassion, but I just got my girlfriend and our kid and two of their friends through begginers box and only one of them was conscious for the entire final battle. Some monsters are hard. At least with the wasp swarm it's not a dragon, I mean what's the advice when you die from a dragon, other than "Don't fight dragons."? Life is tough, games can be tough, and counterpoints and protips are not insults to your suffering, but rather genuinely offered liferafts to those bereft of a way forwards. Keep up the good work, and feel free to tell me in response to never comment again, I'm okay with that, but if that's the case, you'll never again be able to assume my lack of comment is complete approval of your content, which happens a lot more than my comments do. Your call!
@@jacobshaftoe8326 oh I like your -5 DC adventure lore, it allows a player to spend an action to recall knowledge in the form of "I'm stuck, could you please throw me a life-line to continue playing"
Swarms have been a mess since PF1. They could just randomly TPK groups because no one had an alchemist fire. This one just shows how absurdly little playtesting PF2 got.
I man they ARE less annoying. Now you can hurt them with physical attacks (theoretically) instead of them just straight up being immune to weapon attacks. It's just, this swarm in particular is still real bad.
It's not just the bee swarm. All swarms suck! I hate swarms. I hate them as a player, I hate them as a GM. It's boring, annoying, and deadly as fuck, but not in the fun way. Also I don't know how you can narrate it flavourfuly. Litterary my worst gm moment was when my players were brain farted and didn't move away... (They were undoubtedly idiots at that point, but hey, it happens) There were 3 player in the swarm and I had to attack 3 times... "Ok. The swam would do x amount of damage, roll a dex save of something! Ok so you halve it, you double it, you simply get it. Ok. So roll me a fortitude save of x dc: uhumm... Ok but you was the one who crit failed the dex so it ruins your degree of succes by one step, what you rolled? Ok that would be a succes so it's a failure, other two players? You got poisoned one, you got poisoned two, that makes ylou clumsy 1, Ok... Second attack of the three... Well fuck them swarms. Never again XD I refuse to gm swarms
As JoCat once so eloquently put it, "Look at the BEES. Look at them GOING. BEEEEEEEES!!"
Ahhhh, not the beeeees!
REEEEEALLLLY considered using that clip.
Next time!
I feel like, just given that these are wasps, fire should be a weakness as well, or specifically have a more narrative weakness of anything that produces smoke (e.g., smoke and heat from a torch gives them clumsy or off-guard or something.) I'm always in favor of monsters with odd weaknesses or means of being shut down.
This probably should not be a level 4 creature. Level 5, maybe. That being said, this is one reason why it's good to have an alchemist in your party. That splash damage will do things to swarms that it's really hard to be able to do through other means. Make some bombs and hand them out to all your martials who can throw them.
I prepared one of these to show up in the Troubles in Otari beachhouse after the party cleared out the Beginner Box. I did check and make sure they had ways to deal with it (summoner had access to runic body to get through resistance and the gunslinger had elemental ammo for splash damage). I had Olli on standby if they needed help.
Sadly, I never got to use it because the session was running too long and it'd be awkward to have just one fight at the start of the next session before closing the chapter and starting up downtime.
Someone had a player die to wasps. lol I just had a player die to a purple mist trap, so that kind of ignominious death hits a little harder.
LOTS of players have had characters die to these wasps.
I don't doubt it at all. It's clear that this is a mean combo, especially for level 2 players. I was more commenting on something prompting this video. Like you or a player of yours dying to one.@@PsiPrimeProductions1
Similarly I had a party almost tpk to a scorpion swarm. The enfeebled made their melee strikes even worse.
All swarms have been an issue... Even in PF1e. They're scary.
Swarms in general seem to have this effect. Had a centipede swarm kill one of my lvl 2 players.
You need to be cautious with the party compositions when using resources if you’re…WTF is that DC?!
I have a feeling wasp swarms punch above their weight due to association with Calistria. On Golarion, one never does a dine and dash at a brothel without a lot of backup, and who the heck is backing you up for that, and more importantly, why?
1-action area effects are typically supposed to deal much less damage than 2-action area effects, as are area effects that inflict significant effects/conditions. Despite Swaming Stings fitting both criteria, the area damage used is only one level below what's expected for a level 4 unlimited use area effect. Perhaps it's meant to make up for the swarm's low HP and AC? Resistances and immunities aside, it's quite brittle.
Reminds me of the infamous spider cave In kingmaker, well at least they are not totally immune to physical damage like 1e
Unless the DM only plays encounters in a kill-or-die method, players can run from a fight instead of trying to shoot arrows or hit with swords at thousands of bees. If you do not have the ressources to burn them all with splash weapons (which any alchemist, wizard or sorcerer might have), fleeing is a good strategy. There are countless ways to protect yourself from encounters without having to destroy them (going underwater, smoke screens, etc).
That being said, the Venom and Save DCs definitely hits differently for a simple swarm of wasps. Just removing that aspect would balance things out. Either that, or these wasps are extra-special.
Assuming you have the resources or environmental factors at play to be able to do that. If you don't have a river nearby or the materials to create a dense smoke you're fucked because they out speed you and wasps are a horribly aggressive species that will follow you home and destroy you if they have the chance, And they will with their 40ft fly speed against a level 2 party with limited resources.
Most people don't know they'll be ambushed by specific monsters, and few people would assume a wasp swarm is a threat to a team of adventurers leading to most parties playing the game normally taking too significant damage to escape without someone dying. It's also entirely possible for the ambush to down the party's AoE damage dealer in the first round of combat.
@@tjcross2 Even if the encounter is taking place in a blank, featureless landscape with no foliage to Sneak through and no water to submerge yourself in, why would the wasps want to keep chasing you? The nest is saved. Mission accomplished.
@@SuperParkourio, wasps can be spiteful buggers...
@@SuperParkourio Wasps are a hyper-aggressive species of insects, on top of that we're talking about a stat block that can KILL someone in 1-2 rounds and, being a hyper aggressive swarm would logically stick to a target until dead. The rest of the party would be fine but they have to sacrifice that party member which few parties are willing to do because, it fucking blows to run away and let your friend die.
I think it would be fair to nerf the damage output, but have you tried to shoot a swarm of bees with a gun?
I think it's safe to say that it doesn't do a lot of damage. :3
There is a fine line between realism and giving the players a fair shot.
@@PsiPrimeProductions1 I think it might just be a good rule of thumb, to increase the level of swarm creatures by one without stat increases and reduce their damage die by one size, by default.
And maybe also introduce some equipment such as a beekeeper suit, or something like that specifically to combat swarms.
Because having the right equipment for the right job is important.
However, I find that Pathfinder 2e has been quite lacking in the equipment department like there isn't even a grooming/hygiene kit. :3
This video gave me a villain idea for a homebrew adventure (feel free to steal).
- Level 2 party hears of a man wearing burlap terrorizing the town.
- Party investigates, but the people they get information from keep getting murdered.
- Party discovers that there's been a yellowjacket wasp in every room where they've questioned someone.
- Party follows a wasp to a secret hideout.
- Party finds the burlap man (Pick a Level 2 monster, use Night Before Christmas's Oogie Boogie for token art).
- Party reduces burlap man to zero Hit Points.
- Burlap man shrieks "MY BUGS!" as burlap is cut open.
- Wasp Swarm emerges from now-inert burlap and takes Burlap man's place in the initiative.
- Party fights and (hopefully) defeats Wasp Swarm.
- Award 120 XP.
I had an interesting thought.
How would these things interact with a cleric of Calistra? Aka the savored sting? Since wasps are her sacred animal. As they are both beautiful to her [somehow] and have a penchant for revenge if wronged.
A swarm of bees was one of my two closest brushes with having a PC die in PF2e, but I think it's a perfectly fine monster, as long as both the PCs and GM treat the encounter realistically. If either side treats the fight as a "kill or die" scenario you run the risk of a TPK. Really, a swarm of bees will only chase you for so long - their goal is to drive away a threat to the hive, not kill everything in sight.
Thanks for the warning. I would definitely have tried these because I'm evil like that, but not evil enough to want a TPK at level 2...
Thank you so much! I tried out Elite Wasp Swarm on two 7-level PCs yesterday - and it was AMAZING! Even the confrontation with the devil was not so intense and feel so epic!
I'm so sad that they didn't fix it in the remaster. That thing should not be level 4, and should not be sent against a level 2 party.
@@PsiPrimeProductions1 probably, considering that from the elite version two 7-lvl PC almost went to heaven :D
But I'm not sad: we got a true Legend...
The monster itself is fine for its level, the danger comes from adhering to the encoutner building advice and being an inexperienced GM or author in case of the Adventure Paths.
It has a bunch of abilities and resistances/immunities that are incredibly specific which the average level 2 party won't have the means to counter at that point.
So yeah, Party Level +2 is generally ok advice, but make sure not to pick anything hyper-specialized as your boss encounter, because that could easily count as being PL+6 rather than +2.
PL +2 is generally a bad idea for low level parties anyway. Almost any Level 3 monster could have a good chance of TPKing a level 1 party.
Fair enough for all of this, but I do think this is less a case of a crazy monster and more of a general "at levels 1-2 a +2 is WAY bigger of a difficultly jump than it would be at any time later". Which is a good thing to know for PF2 as a GM anyways.
Good to know. I would have guess wisps not wasps, I hate them and I'm running abomination vaults
Loole like a guide to a 10/10 encounter!
I currently have a level 4 Swashbucker ... he can do no damage to this at all .... and will take damage ... so if our DM uses this he is running ... free action to shout "run!" at the party ...
We found the new Tarasque!!!
I just ran the wasp encounter in extinction curse for my players a few days ago! It was one hell of an experience, but thankfully nobody died.
Let’s try to hide spoilers okay? There is a reason I didn’t mention which APs had wasp swarms. That being said, when I played it, our group wasn’t so lucky. We lost our bard and that was our GM being nice.
Always have Area damage in a party, while fighting swarms never stay and bang. They never have reactions. And you can react strike this to the hell and back. 45hp can be one shoted by many 1 level characters btw. It is a nasty bubu to face while being weaker though so, I agree with your tips xD
It's also just a way to kill off your party if they are new to Pathfinder 2, as they may not know your tips. I don't know of ANY character that can 1-shot a 45 HP monster at level 1 with DR 7. Also, remember their bonkers high reflex save so there's a good chance they'll crit save against any area attack you throw at them.
1:16 +2 creature is moderate or severe BOSS but yep still way to deadly for it's lvl. Great video.
I didn’t want to go too into the nitty gritty in the video, but a single creature of PL+2 is 80 XP which is a moderate encounter.
It's a severe boss if there are 40 XP worth of mooks in addition to the PL+2 creature.
Hahahaha I can’t stop laughing!! I immediately shared this to my players! (They were almost downed by a similar swarm type creature)
And that's why you run away and use some form of in game logic. Because gamemaster's shouldn't be dumb as heck oO I can easily see my group running away, wasp that stung now die, so the damage they do to everyone, they do to themselfes too. Yes, yes, wasps can sting multiple times but I am the gamemaster and when I say wasps are pink, they are pink. And ultimatively, at least if the party was warned enough times and they 'awoke the beast', I don't want to kill my party - Unless they really deserve it, be it through heroic actions or extremely dumb decisions.
If you look at it solely on a rules-combat-nothing-else way, well, they're extremely strong. I always tend to have "run away" enounters to extremely cocky groups.
This is absolutely a creature you can send against level 2 parties. Use in-game logic and if it isn't fun, change it. Because as in real life, wasp swarms are extremely dangerous. And if your party is really dumb enough to run together, tighly packed, you can send a message - not a tpk message, but a message they will remember forever. Don't let people die because "rules are rules". Use whatever you like, spice it up and your party will learn that running away, even if monsters are faster, stronger, better, harder (you did it in their voice, eh? :P) - Ultimatively it's the decision of the gamemaster.
But yeah. Swarms is nothing you should laugh at. I use them very, very sparingly.
Stay crunchy.
Just command them to "buzz off".
Swarm mind, they are immune to the command spell! Lol, solid pun.
Or, and hear me out, teach your players that running away is actually a sound and common tactic.
I mean yes, but also, like I said in the video, the swarm is faster than almost any character can be at that level. So, like, most players will see that as a no-go.
You convinced me to use them
Yeah, swarms are nasty. They're too binary to be used as bosses. Alchemists will trivialize them, some casters have an easy time, and Thaumaturges treat them like a normal enemy, while most other martials are neutered and precision-based characters are helpless
best level 2 spellcaster? its a creature 4. that means its sup[posed to be difficult to a level 2 group. 25% failure is not insanely high.
The point I was trying to say was that is just casually thrown against level 2 characters with no pomp or circumstance, and that it's greatest 'weakness' can be mitigated 25% of the time. So if it rolls well against a wizard's breathe fire spell, that could be curtains for the party. It's not just difficult for a level 2 group, but in some cases, near-insurmountable.
Question about these things since I haven't actually played any PF2 yet... But learning about flying creatures, does it require an action each round to remain flying each round? Does that only allow it to get two attacks tops, not three, or does the language "Each enemy in their space" imply that it works if they land as they still cover that entire large space?
Eh, for swarms it's kinda hit-and-miss. You are really getting into the nitty-gritty of rules when you do that. But to answer your question, TECHNICALLY the swarm can land, as it has a land speed, and sting everyone three times if they are on the ground, then if the people start running, it can start flying, landing any round it doesn't spend a move action to fly.
@@PsiPrimeProductions1 Okay. I was just wondering if there might have been a design intention to have it waste an action flying that would weaken it to be less deadly
Lol how does any settlement exist in pathfinder if a bunch of bees could wipe them out. Is the beekeeper like level 6.
Maybe a swarm of wasps is significantly harder than a swarm of bees, maybe they are Creature 0?
@PsiPrimeProductions1 lol I guess. It's funny to imagine a world where stepping on a wasp nest can wipe out an entire village tho. If I find a wasp nest in my gazebo I'm fucking moving to the next town I'll tell you that.
Many of the points this video makes against this monster seem to come down to "But what if the players don't have the right tools?" Well, you die; that's what. The math of the game expects that players will have a toolset varied enough to take on a wide variety of problems in addition to having good tactics. This is trickier at level 1, but not impossible.
- No alchemist? Buy some bombs.
- Ranged attacks aren't doing enough damage? Use melee instead.
- Dexterity martials aren't doing enough damage? They don't have to dump Strength.
- Sneak attack isn't working? Use Aid reactions to buff other party members.
- The remaster lowered the default Aid DC from 20 to 15, so this is an even better option now.
- Can't outrun the enemy? Maybe you can Hide and Sneak away.
- Enemy is flying too fast? Jump in a lake.
I mean, you are free to interpret things as you see fit, but I think you are vastly overestimating the resources players have at level 2. Acid vials and alchemist fires are expensive and unless you have alchemical crafting, you can't get access to them outside of a town, and many APs don't give you many towns to go into. And both APs where you encounter the wasps have no bodies of water nearby to jump into. Not to mention, newer players will have just hit level 2 and do not know about these issues. So they just get to level 2 and then die and your response is what, ' you should have psychically intuited that this was going to happen?' Seems like a good way to drive people away from this hobby to me. But you do you.
Yeah, I meant to say it's trickier at low levels, not just level 1. And you're right, new players aren't going to know to cover their bases like this.
Something something…Pathfinder is perfectly balanced…something something…no war in Ba Sing Se…
As the joke goes, sometimes the bull, he no lose...
Fun creature! Not see this one. I will have to use it at some point...
Please don’t.
Always have alchemist fire or acid or spells with AoE. Swarms should be prepared for at level 2+.
I've heard that argument before, and personally, I'm not a fan.
For one, I had a party that almost TPKed to this thing and we bought as much acid and alchemist fires as we could afford and still almost died (and our bard did die). The thing is just unreasonably tough for low-level players.
Also, some adventures/APs don't let you go to town before reaching level 3 or so.
Also also, remember, these are things encountered at very low level, so there is a decent chance you may have a new pathfinder player or three at your table, and there's no way for newer players to know that. At that point you are basically killing a new player who had NO way to know that mechanic of the game. If you take that 'you should have known better' attitude, then kicking them when they are down by saying killing their character and blaming them for it. Sounds like a good way to loose a new player to me.
@@PsiPrimeProductions1 as a GM, I'd definitely include some acid, alchemist fire, or something similar as treasure for a low level party in an AP that had swarms with no ability to buy them. Maybe include a scroll with an AoE spell or two. I'd give them the means to defeat the swarms, but sometimes crits happen and PCs die. It can happen with ocs with a greataxe.
> unalive
Why?
I love that monster
I was sure you were going to say the grikkitog terrible monster in 1e. Not certain in 2e.
I agree but also disagree, swarms are like fireballs, spread the hell out and you don't die. Also a great reason to be like the pictures in Pathfinder books, and always be carrying 12-30 different weapons, bombs etc. I mean, look at that low-ass AC. Look at it! Attack items like bombs, even weak lvl 1 bombs, spam a few, problem is solved. I mean, as Professor X says to Wolverine: ".. or Storm flies over and sucks him into a hurricane. Into a god-damned hurricane. 2 seconds, problem solved."
I mean, the "It's too fast you can't run" and "It kills the whole party" are two separate concepts that are completely resolved by not forming the party like a friggin clot. You're not girls on their way to high school, you're adventurers, act like it!
Sorry, this has been an expression of the RPG learning curve, which is fairly shallow with P2E compared to say 3rd Edition, where you're an idiot who lost the game because you didn't add the appropriate level of monk to your build. In this case, it's monster fighting 101: If it has a strength, nullify it. If it has a weakness, exploit it. Swarms tend to have both in spades.
Look, obviously you don't like the content. You are free not to. I have my opinion and you have yours. But your comments are becoming increasingly toxic and seem to have a 'blame the party for not metagaming' mentality. If that is how you want to act, I suggest you take your toxicity elsewhere. There are a bunch of ways to dissect your arguments like 'players don't know it's stats' or 'what if it gets the drop on the party and attacks them with it's higher perception, so they don't have a chance to spread out' but I don't think you will listen. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but it's obvious you either dislike this content, or want to stir things up here by berating people. Either way, this is not the channel for you, clearly. I invite you to look elsewhere.
@@PsiPrimeProductions1, in turn, I invite you to reread every one of my comments in an Australian accent, realise there's at least 8 layers of irony on top of a bunch of self effacing humor and try not to read disagreement as some kind of personal attack.
As an aside, and dropping all banter and all culture for a moment, I'd like to point out that this is UA-cam, a place where a content creator can labor for 10 years to end up with one comment on one video that simply reads "Lame" and are thankful for the engagement. For some reason your videos come up in my feed, and I watch, like and never comment on many, as my sense of humor doesn't mesh well with positive comments, so a quick point: The last video of yours I watched before this one had me building a Hobgoblin archer (off a fighter framework) because I'd never come across the Phalanx Piercer. If your channel had more humor I might comment positively, but that's not your thing and that's okay. As to the "Not everyone metagames" thing, one tip that came from me leaving that comment and sharing it with my family was the simple joy of having come up with the "Adventurer Lore" skill, and it's many but specific applications, to whit basic go to moves for all common well known monsters and types. -5 to DC for recall knowledge for specific questions like "How does every story describe the adventurers fighting a big green thing that regenerates relentlessly?" giving the answer of "It's a troll, and use fire.". Same would go for swarms, though I'd point out it depends on the players, their characters and their priorities.
I know no-one likes to be told how they could have not wiped while they're still emotional about the wipe. I know that because one thing gamers learn to cope with is just that: When complaining about the wipe, people who know how not to die will share that, which feels like invalidation of your pain and frustration. It's like they're saying "If you did X you wouldn't have died.". Which is also the only information that separates everyone who ever lived from everyone who ever died in that scenario, with the rare exceptions of collective bad rolling days, which happen to everyone.
Maybe I sound like I lack compassion, but I just got my girlfriend and our kid and two of their friends through begginers box and only one of them was conscious for the entire final battle. Some monsters are hard. At least with the wasp swarm it's not a dragon, I mean what's the advice when you die from a dragon, other than "Don't fight dragons."?
Life is tough, games can be tough, and counterpoints and protips are not insults to your suffering, but rather genuinely offered liferafts to those bereft of a way forwards.
Keep up the good work, and feel free to tell me in response to never comment again, I'm okay with that, but if that's the case, you'll never again be able to assume my lack of comment is complete approval of your content, which happens a lot more than my comments do. Your call!
@@jacobshaftoe8326 oh I like your -5 DC adventure lore, it allows a player to spend an action to recall knowledge in the form of "I'm stuck, could you please throw me a life-line to continue playing"
That shit says creature 4 for a reason
Swarms have been a mess since PF1. They could just randomly TPK groups because no one had an alchemist fire.
This one just shows how absurdly little playtesting PF2 got.
I hate swarms in oathfinder first edirion id hoped they would be less anoying in second but i guess not
I man they ARE less annoying. Now you can hurt them with physical attacks (theoretically) instead of them just straight up being immune to weapon attacks. It's just, this swarm in particular is still real bad.
Yeah, swarms suck
It's not just the bee swarm. All swarms suck!
I hate swarms. I hate them as a player, I hate them as a GM. It's boring, annoying, and deadly as fuck, but not in the fun way.
Also I don't know how you can narrate it flavourfuly.
Litterary my worst gm moment was when my players were brain farted and didn't move away... (They were undoubtedly idiots at that point, but hey, it happens) There were 3 player in the swarm and I had to attack 3 times... "Ok. The swam would do x amount of damage, roll a dex save of something! Ok so you halve it, you double it, you simply get it. Ok. So roll me a fortitude save of x dc: uhumm... Ok but you was the one who crit failed the dex so it ruins your degree of succes by one step, what you rolled? Ok that would be a succes so it's a failure, other two players? You got poisoned one, you got poisoned two, that makes ylou clumsy 1, Ok... Second attack of the three...
Well fuck them swarms. Never again XD I refuse to gm swarms