This guy is amazing so he told me to balance my radiators. And after few months of a bathroom radiator not working it’s now nice and hot thanks ever so much
Small tip: cut a short piece of pipe insulation and tuck the probe between that and the pipe. I have loads of those digital thermometers from ebay. Less than £2 each so can have 1 on each end. In fact I have them on the boiler flow and return too. Where does the figure of 12c come from? I believe the very best efficiency would occur with a return flow of 20-25c which would be impossible. But the greater the temperature difference between inflow and outflow, the better, right?
@@johnf3326 I don't know about corrosion and temps - you could well be right. But I'm fairly sure the intended delta T is smaller for non-condensing vs condensing.
Thanks for this great tutorial, clear and well explained. I have a question: does the balancing procedure work on radiators that don't have thermostatic valves? Thank you
A friend of mine has three radiators on the same floor in a very small apartment. They all get hot very quickly, but the Delta temperature between flow and return is zero. Is it still worthwhile to do the balancing since all the radiators have a uniform, pretty high temperature? Thanks for your continued support
Thanks for the video. I have 14 radiators over 2 floors. To identify the order they heat up will need 2 people. How much of the radiator needs to have got warm to be considered as warm enough to be on the list? Just the bottom?
This might sound naive, but what is the best definition of 'heating up'? If I hold the flow pipes going in to my radiators, some all start to warm up - albeit very slowly - from cold at almost exactly about the same time. So is checking for the start of 'warming up' best done at the top of the radiator (directly above the flow in), or perhaps is feeling the middle of the radiator top a more sensible way? Or maybe it's down to the two of us in our house having different levels of sensing 'warming up'. Mine is an old F&E system with an ancient Glowworm Spacesaver boiler, with 3 ground floor rads having down-pipes from the floor above, and it takes quite a while for the circulating water from the boiler to actually get "warm". I thought this would be a very easy task, but finding it surprisingly hard to tell the difference between the start of some radiators warming up and others. (Loving all your helpful vids, though!)
For you, I think feeling the top of the rad on the left or right side to find which is the flow, might be best you. The downstairs rads with the dropped pipes finding the flow is best done by feeling which pipe is heating first.
@@dereton33 Thanks. I've already identified the flow and return pipes for every radiator - that's not the issue for me, as was very easy. It's actually determining the point at which I can say "yes, that rad's warmed up, but the other one hasn't yet". I could simply feel the flow pipes, but they seem to warm up about the same rate on all but the furthest fromes from the boiler. I've made a bit of a plan and so am now using a 'common sense approach' to balance what I'm guessing are the nearest rads first. Might give it a second go once I've drained down the system and replaced the Sentinel x400 with proper inhibitor. House is absolutely boiling at the moment as I work through one radiator at a time! (Wish I'd bought two digital thermometer to do this job, too) Cheers.
Hi Derek, I always enjoy your videos. Couple of questions. 1) I have an unvented system boiler Ideal ICOS condensing, so what should temperature differential be at the flow & return on each Rad? I've read 12 degrees but also 20 degrees! Confused 2)) I have a dual zone system with seperate zone valves for downstairs and upstairs so do I balance the down and the up separately? Or does adjusting the up also affect the down and vice versa?. Thanks again.
Thank you for this. I am worried I may cause leaking to the valves on the older rads. Is there anyway to do this without needing the first step. That is can I just assume the order based on assumed pipe runs and opt for 12 degrees based on that guess?
Great content, have watched plenty of your videos since moving to a new house. Old building with lots of niggles that need sorting. Question for your derenton! Got myself a thermometer, going around and am noticing that some pipes are 50°+ and some are 20°.. how hot should they be (roughly)? Cheers
Hi, I learned a lot from your video. I was going to buy the digital thermometer you recommended but it is out of stock, can you recommend a replacement
Always very helpful videos. I have 13 radiators in total 2 of which are towel rail type. Two questions: 1. Should one TRV be removed from the 13 as I have heard and if so which one if any and why? 2. Do the towel rads actually benefit from a need for TRVs or not as they seem to be ineffective or there is little difference on temperatures in and out of flow and return sides? Thank you 😊
Great video as always. Love your channel! When is the best point after you've turned the heating on to take the initial rad pipes readings? I have some 3 column traditional radiators which can take a little while to heat up.
@@dereton33 Thanks Al. I also have x1 very small and old single panel rad in the hallway - its @ 1/4 turn but I'm never going to achieve a 12 degree difference on that unless it's closed! lol Same for my shower rail rad in the bathroom. Any thoughts on this?
Hi! When moving to the second Radiator do you keep the first radiators open? And is the latter radiators still turned off as you make your way to the end?
Thanks for the informative video. I have just done this process on my rads and I have a couple of questions. All my rads have TRV's except one which has lock shield at each end, I understand you have to have one rad without TRV. I included this rad in the balancing but I wondered if this one needs to be fully open both ends or is it OK to leave it set up for 12C temperature drop which required one lockshield to be only a quarter of a turn open? Also I have a mix of TRV's some on flow and some on return, is this OK or is it dependant on the type/make of TRV?
Leave the lockshield a quarter turn open it will be fine. TRVS can be either end now. The make of TRV are not critical but the higher quality ones like Drayton are more accurate.
I have 13 rads including 2 towel type and all have TRVs. Do I need to remove one or can arrangement remain as need to appreciate purpose abd benefit of 12 or 13 TRVs. Thank you.
Hi can you please advise me I have lock shield valet both side of the radiators which side to use if I wanted to balance the heating system many thanks loved your video
Does that 12c difference mean that the return pipe at the lock shield is lower than the feed pipe with the TRV? But what about when you turn the TRV down in a room from fully open (5) to say (3) because you don’t want that room too hot, how does that effect the 12c differential?
My central heating system was originally gravity fed but was converted to a pumped system. The pipes from the boiler go from the ground floor to the pump on the first floor and then, either drop down in boxes in the corner of the rooms to feed the ground floor rads, or, travel under the floor boards to supply the first floor rads. Given the layout, will i be able to work out the sequence of heating?
Does the 12 degrees difference also apply to towel rails? I have read somewhere to ignore a towel rail, as they have such a small effect on the water temperature.
@@shouwill I'm pretty sure that at least one radiator should be always 'on' so that the boiler has somewhere to pump water if all the TRVs are closed. This is usually the bathroom rad/towel rail.
Thanks for the video. My issue is that I have three radiators connected together, serially, in a bay window. Strangely, the middle one is connected to the two side ones both on the top and at the bottom. The problem is that even with the lock shield valve fully open the temperature difference between incoming and outgoing flow is much larger than 12 degrees. Could this be the fault of the way they are connected or is the pipe work just underdimensioned for the task. Standard copper pipe, not microbore.
Coupling rads in that way will make the temperature difference larger, as the heat has to pass through 15 mm pipe through the middle rad and back to the outer rad.
Yes,that makes sense. The question is then what to expect, something between 12 and 36 degrees as the are three radiators serially connected? I am also thinking of removing the top connectors between the radiators to get a more normal flow through the middle and last radiator. Currently, I can see (I have a simple heat camera) that the middle one especially only get warm at the top and cold lower down whereas the first one in the chain gets warm all the way through. I have also seen from other forums that they way mine are connected is not the standard way it is done.
Thank you. I’ve seen online, that most condensing boilers in the UK, are more efficient with a return temperature of 45°C. Does that mean the maximum, minimum or average, because mine fluctuates?
Hi, when you have worked out the order of the radiators heating up do you then turn the heating off and all the valves on all the rads ? After this do you only turn on the radiators in the order they heat up eg if i have a total of 12 rads and i am balancing rad 2 - i will leave open rad 1 (as that is now balanced) and also leave off rads 3 to 12 ?
I'm having a problem with a radiator in my bedroom... I've tried it all, bleeding the system of air, checking the thermostat valve, all is good - no air, thermostat valve pin is popping out as far as on all my other radiators. So now I am looking into trying to balance the system. I thought maybe it could be this because of a recommendation on one of your other videos, but I don't appear to have a lock shield valve. My thermostat is at the top of the radiator coming off the right hand side, and the opposite left hand side is where I can bleed the radiator with a square shaped key. At the bottom sides there is nothing, and at the very bottom, a bit offset inwards from the left there are two ports with hexagonal heads on them. Is this the thing I need to control? The last thing I want to do is cause a leak!
Another question: 2 radiators downstairs have a Delta temperature of around 10 degrees, but the flow temperature is 4 or 5 degrees lower than that of the radiators upstairs. What's the reason?? If I close the lockshield valve a bit more then the flow temperature decreases as well
Great video but I have a question. If I adjust my lockshield valve to get 12 degree difference across the radiator will that mess up the balancing of the whole system as in the nearest and furthest radiators and should I try to balance the whiole system first or individual radiators? Many thanks
I’ve taken note of the order. Before I turn it back on do I need to close all the other lock shields too? Or just do the first one then go round and close them each separately then open until 12?
One more question. My boiler modulates the temperature. So, the flow temperature constantly rises and falls, as does the return temperature. There is therefore a delay between the maximum flow temperature, and the maximum return temperature. Is the 12°C difference calculated as the difference between both maximum flow and return temperatures, or between the maximum flow and minimum return temperatures?
Should the temperature delta between TRV and lock shield valves be constant even when the modulating boiler is off and therefore the flow temperature is five or six degrees lower?
Balancing radiators, I have seen so many you tube videos on this subject that are wrong so thought I would correct. This applies to combi boiler systems Why have a boiler and radiators in the first place, it is to heat every rooms air that has a radiator to a desired temperature to make it comfortable to live in, modern radiator have a (TRV) Thermostatic Radiator Valves which allows the air temperature to be set. The valve at the other end of the radiator needs to be fully open to allow TRV full control. The combi boiler has two pipes connected to the rad circuit, flow and return. When working the boiler heats the flow water to the temperature set by the rad temp control on the boiler. At the same time it monitors the return temp, as the return temp nears the flow temp the flame is reduced, when nearly the same the flame is turn off only turning on again when over certain difference is monitored. Always monitor air temp in a room not radiator temp because that is what we feel. If the room is too cold turn up the TRV, if too hot turn down. The TRV should control to this setting. If you think radiators are getting too hot there may be a cold draft entering the room needing more heat to be used to heat to your temp. If the room air is not hot enough and you have the TRV fully open there maybe not enough water flowing in the rad i.e. a blockage or simply the boiler is set too low. I know there are many and various more faults but this is the basics.
It would be helpful if you could say which way to turn the lockshield valve (open or close) to increase or decrease the temperature difference across the radiator. Very good video though.
Hi! When moving to the second Radiator do you keep the first radiators open? And is the latter radiators still turned off as you make your way to the end HAS IN SECOND RAD TRV TURNED OFF AND LOCK SHIELD TURNED OFF.
Hi, quick question, the bathroom radiator has two lock shield valves as it is a heat sink, do these stay fully open during the whole balancing process or close one end down? Thanks in advance!
Question, I have a system with 3 separate zones. 1 is underfloor heating. The other 2 are upstairs and downstairs rads. Would you do this with every zone open? Each zone has its own pump fed from a low loss header. Thanks
My boiler manual (condenser boiler Logic Plus System S30) says that the temperature differential should be 20 degrees. Should I use this rather than the twelve degrees that you quote? Also, should the radiators be balanced when the hot water is on as well, or just when the heating is on?
Why is the diference of temperature in front of radiator and behind it 12 C°? Why not 20 or 5? I know that the temperature difference effects the heat output of the radiators. So i assumed that this difference should be adequate for the heating system as a whole compared to heat loss of the building to match the output of radiators. Or am I wrong? Thank you and have a great day
sorry to come across as dumb, but when you mention about the 12 degrees difference which pipe should be hotter than the other is the lockshield end hotter or the TRV end or doesnt it matter as long as there is a 12 degrees difference or can only 1 pipe be the hotter one no matter what you do so it is self explanatory?
@@dereton33 i had my other half and daughter helping but it still seems really hard to work it out without seeing a pipe diagram. We'll try again. Thanks for the response!
My boiler is losing pressure. Been happening for just over a week. I wrapped toilet roll around every pipe in the house to find the leak but nothing. I'm having to top up the boiler every day before turning the heating on. Also, it's a condensing boiler but there's no vapour coming from the flue when the heating is on , only when the hot tap is being used. Does that indicate it's not condensing properly? Thanks.
Check the overflow from your boiler, if there are no obvious leaks on all your radiators valves or pipes in the floor/ceiling you will likely find its the pressure relief valve inside the combi boiler that is stuck open, you will see a little pipe just under the boiler flue on the outside of the house, if water is coming out of that then its the pressure relief valve, they are cheap enough to change out, if your having to refill every day you would really notice that leak if it were inside the house.
Hi, I'm currently helping my parents with their heating, having had problems with some radiators staying cold, we spent yesterday switching each one on in turn, on it's own, to find out whether it was working OK, whether any bleeding was necessary and also whether there were any cold spots. All passed the test, so we now assume they need balancing to sort out the problems. The weird part is, they had both the bathroom and en-suite radiators replaced at some stage with towel rails, neither have TRVs, just a cylindrical valve at each end which can easily be closed or opened by hand. How should these form part of the balancing process? We've noticed strange things with the towel rails, for example, one hots up very quickly indeed, the other takes far longer, but also there seems to be conflict between one of the towel rails and one of the radiators (you turn one up, the other goes off). All good fun.
@@dereton33 can I not just fully open one TRV instead of removal or must the towel rad have two lockshields. If the latter how are these set eg both fully open..?
@@dereton33 Many thanks. The reason why I ask this questions is that the water from hot water tap is not warm but the radiator is very warm - it takes a long time to use warm water - maybe this because it's indirect heating cylinder?
I had new radiators double convection installed through out the house. Got a system boiler the heating comes on every hour. And stays on for 15 miniutes. House seems to hold the heat for for a very long time before switching in again. Seems very efficient or am.I missing something? Can you explain some details what's happening and why ? Thanks .
You just have a well insulated house and with double convector rads fitted it will not take long to heat your house, so you will find the boiler does not have to stay on so long.
@@dereton33 so if the insulation is good that will negate the effects of unbalanced radiators or is this a poor assumption? Could you give an explanation on good insulation Vs balanced radiators. Balancing radiators is about reducing the loss of heat through the system am I right? So having good insulation negates this problem?
@@setitthen Balancing the radiators is about making the distribution of heat even throughout the house, so that the radiators all pull their weight. If the system is unbalanced, you will have some rads hotter than others and likely will end up wasting heat (=fossil fuel, and also money) by turning the thermostat up to make the coldest room warm enough - and in doing so causing the ones already warm enough to overheat. Either that, or leaving doors open to try to spread the heat around. Good insulation is ALWAYS a good idea, and it's not EITHER this OR balancing the system as you suggest. Best of all, if you've got good insulation, a balanced system AND a load or weather-compensating boiler that's not oversized, you will then get the boiler reducing its flow temperature on all but the coldest of days. And the magic of a low flow temperature is that it keeps the boiler in condensing mode - which wrings up to another 11% in efficiency out of the system.
Do you have any videos on solid fuel heating system? We have a coal fire what heats the upstairs radiators automatically when the water his hot but I can’t turn on the radiators downstairs until the water is 85c so it hard for me to balance the system. Thank you
Liam, not a plumber but had a system similar to yours for many years. The rads upstairs that was permanently on are a safety feature to ensure excess heat is being removed from the boiler when the fire is lit and it is important they are never turned off when the fire is lit..I would not bother to balance these unless you have an issue. As for the rads down stairs balance them like in the video as they are indipendent of the rads upstairs due to the main thermostat.
Peter Evans Thanks for that Peter, I did turn all the upstairs rads down to half a turn or a full turn can’t really remember now, so should I turn all them back fully open? And just balance the 5 rads downstairs? Sorry if this doesn’t make much sense 😀
Is it me or was the white balance set wrong on the camera when this vid was shot, as it looks so blue in that kitchen, or was it done like that to give an impression of cold, as it's about heating?!
@@dereton33 Thanks for the reply, and thank you for all of your videos they have really helped me out over the years. F&E system red plastic capped valve in the airing cupboard so guessing that's it.
Instead of standing round like a plum invest in a clothes peg (to hold the sensor) ... or buy a thermometer with 2 probes if you actually want to see the true drop ... of course then you’ll need a second clothes peg!
Hi al , i managed to follow your advice by turning the downstairs rads by 1 full turn and it's made all the difference they all heat up very quickly! Just one more thing regarding the balancing valve on the coil, how many turns on this valve will give sufficient hot water time and not rob heat from the radiators if both are on demand? I have counted the number of turns and it takes 4 full turns and a quarter from fully closed to fully open, its fully open at the moment. My system is a y plan with a Worcester 18ri condensing boiler if that helps? Thanks
If there is only one of you, In a large house could you open all the valves etc to max and test the temps at the rads. Would the highest temp be the first one, the next highest the second one etc. then if there are ones that are off you’d only have find the order of those couple.
@@dereton33 Thanks, I guessed that was the case and did my system yesterday. I had problems getting the temperature difference right I think partly because some of our TRVs are fitted on the flow side and some on the other end so it was a bit hit and miss. I also used a laser thermometer which gave one or two iffy readings on pipes that had been painted over. Might not be perfect but had the desired effect as two radiators at the end of the system are now much warmer than they used to be. A couple of questions. I had one rattling radiator this morning and one hissing I'm guessing this is because it was the first time the system had been used after my re-balancing it. The other is that one or two rads are cooler at the bottom than top by a few degrees it seems to be more the further they are away from the boiler. You were right about the time it takes. I have 11 radiators and was doing the last one at 11:00 last night! I found leaving the larger more distant radiators for half an hour after switching them on helped get better results. Thanks once again your videos are really useful.
Hi Al, Great video again! Just wondering, would it be a safe assumption that my radiators upstairs are heating up first as my boiler is in my loft? Thanks.
Great instructional video, as they all are. Two questions though... I've turned both TRVs and lockshield valves fully open and have identified the order in which my 7 radiators heat up. I've gone to the first one as directed and turned the lockshield valve off and opened it up a quarter turn until there's a 12° difference. Are the lockshield valves on the remaining 6 radiators still fully open at this point, or are they closed down at the same time as the first? Is it a case of closing each one in turn as you make your way around and adjusting as necessary? I'm not too clear. Thanks.
@dereton33 All the rads in my flat have TRV's fitted, except for the large rad in the front room. It just has two lockshield valves, one on either end. Also, the thermostat is on the wall in the front room. How do I go about adjusting them?
That rad has been configured as the bypass radiator, which is why it does not have a thermostatic valve on it. Leave one end fully open and just adjust it on the one valve.
Great Video. I've gone and ordered the digital version you suggested in your info, but I've come to realise that when I had the bathroom done; the Plumber mounted the LS on the Flow and TRV on the return. How do I balance this? Open the LS fully, and adjust the TRV with the nut below the head? Or by some other way?
@@dereton33 thanks for that. I am curious though, I have a condensing combi; should I still do the 11c difference or 22c from what I've read? As always, your input and advice is appreciated
I want to try and balance my radiators as I am finding I have to turn 2 upstairs radiator off, and lower the thermostatic valve on 2 radiators to get all the radiators downstairs to heat up. Following this process, When I check to see the order each radiator is heating up, the radiators downstairs such as living room, kitchen do not warm up, what do I do in this case?
I dont understand why you need to turn on, turn off, turn on etc the system, seems a waste of time. Why not turn on once, let it get up to temperature, then go around once with your thermometer adjusting lockshields for 12C difference across each rad?
No, I wasn’t expressing an opinion, it was a question. At the moment I don‘t see the point in doing the balancing in any particular order if it is just a matter of setting a 12C drop across each rad, but then every source I’ve checked all say do it in that order. But then I’m suffering lack of sleep & not thinking very clearly.
This guy is amazing so he told me to balance my radiators. And after few months of a bathroom radiator not working it’s now nice and hot thanks ever so much
No problem Mike.
Thank you for the vlog. Merry Christmas to you, Jan and the fur babies 😻🐶😊😊👍
Thanks Lily, all the best to you too.
Small tip: cut a short piece of pipe insulation and tuck the probe between that and the pipe. I have loads of those digital thermometers from ebay. Less than £2 each so can have 1 on each end. In fact I have them on the boiler flow and return too. Where does the figure of 12c come from?
I believe the very best efficiency would occur with a return flow of 20-25c which would be impossible. But the greater the temperature difference between inflow and outflow, the better, right?
Thanks John.
I think 12C is the optimum for a non-condensing boiler and 20C is the optimum for a condensing boiler.
@@chriscarus2464 I think for a non condensing boiler you have to run hotter right? As acidic condensation will rot those boilers
@@johnf3326 I don't know about corrosion and temps - you could well be right. But I'm fairly sure the intended delta T is smaller for non-condensing vs condensing.
Thanks for this great tutorial, clear and well explained. I have a question: does the balancing procedure work on radiators that don't have thermostatic valves? Thank you
Yes it does
@@dereton33 thanks a lot!
wow that video was great. Thank you! Sometimes can be a bit of a pain when you have to balance 21 radiators the old school way...
You're welcome!
A friend of mine has three radiators on the same floor in a very small apartment. They all get hot very quickly, but the Delta temperature between flow and return is zero. Is it still worthwhile to do the balancing since all the radiators have a uniform, pretty high temperature? Thanks for your continued support
Yes still worth dong. His boiler is not running efficiently.
Thanks for the video. I have 14 radiators over 2 floors. To identify the order they heat up will need 2 people. How much of the radiator needs to have got warm to be considered as warm enough to be on the list? Just the bottom?
Yes as the pipe enters the rad.
This might sound naive, but what is the best definition of 'heating up'? If I hold the flow pipes going in to my radiators, some all start to warm up - albeit very slowly - from cold at almost exactly about the same time. So is checking for the start of 'warming up' best done at the top of the radiator (directly above the flow in), or perhaps is feeling the middle of the radiator top a more sensible way? Or maybe it's down to the two of us in our house having different levels of sensing 'warming up'. Mine is an old F&E system with an ancient Glowworm Spacesaver boiler, with 3 ground floor rads having down-pipes from the floor above, and it takes quite a while for the circulating water from the boiler to actually get "warm". I thought this would be a very easy task, but finding it surprisingly hard to tell the difference between the start of some radiators warming up and others. (Loving all your helpful vids, though!)
For you, I think feeling the top of the rad on the left or right side to find which is the flow, might be best you. The downstairs rads with the dropped pipes finding the flow is best done by feeling which pipe is heating first.
@@dereton33 Thanks. I've already identified the flow and return pipes for every radiator - that's not the issue for me, as was very easy. It's actually determining the point at which I can say "yes, that rad's warmed up, but the other one hasn't yet". I could simply feel the flow pipes, but they seem to warm up about the same rate on all but the furthest fromes from the boiler. I've made a bit of a plan and so am now using a 'common sense approach' to balance what I'm guessing are the nearest rads first. Might give it a second go once I've drained down the system and replaced the Sentinel x400 with proper inhibitor. House is absolutely boiling at the moment as I work through one radiator at a time! (Wish I'd bought two digital thermometer to do this job, too) Cheers.
@@VC57UK make sure all lockshields are fully open, there should be an order.
Hi Derek, I always enjoy your videos. Couple of questions.
1) I have an unvented system boiler Ideal ICOS condensing, so what should temperature differential be at the flow & return on each Rad? I've read 12 degrees but also 20 degrees! Confused
2)) I have a dual zone system with seperate zone valves for downstairs and upstairs so do I balance the down and the up separately? Or does adjusting the up also affect the down and vice versa?. Thanks again.
12 degrees.
Thank you for this. I am worried I may cause leaking to the valves on the older rads. Is there anyway to do this without needing the first step. That is can I just assume the order based on assumed pipe runs and opt for 12 degrees based on that guess?
You can but it will not be accurate.
Great content, have watched plenty of your videos since moving to a new house. Old building with lots of niggles that need sorting. Question for your derenton! Got myself a thermometer, going around and am noticing that some pipes are 50°+ and some are 20°.. how hot should they be (roughly)? Cheers
Around 40 to 50.
Hi, I learned a lot from your video. I was going to buy the digital thermometer you recommended but it is out of stock, can you recommend a replacement
Not that I know of.
Always very helpful videos.
I have 13 radiators in total 2 of which are towel rail type. Two questions: 1. Should one TRV be removed from the 13 as I have heard and if so which one if any and why? 2. Do the towel rads actually benefit from a need for TRVs or not as they seem to be ineffective or there is little difference on temperatures in and out of flow and return sides? Thank you 😊
Yes remove one so it acts as the bypass rad usually the towel rail will survice. Still put one on the other towel rail though.
Great video as always. Love your channel! When is the best point after you've turned the heating on to take the initial rad pipes readings? I have some 3 column traditional radiators which can take a little while to heat up.
An hour.
@@dereton33 Thanks Al. I also have x1 very small and old single panel rad in the hallway - its @ 1/4 turn but I'm never going to achieve a 12 degree difference on that unless it's closed! lol Same for my shower rail rad in the bathroom. Any thoughts on this?
Hi! When moving to the second Radiator do you keep the first radiators open?
And is the latter radiators still turned off as you make your way to the end?
Yes to both.
Thanks for the informative video. I have just done this process on my rads and I have a couple of questions. All my rads have TRV's except one which has lock shield at each end, I understand you have to have one rad without TRV. I included this rad in the balancing but I wondered if this one needs to be fully open both ends or is it OK to leave it set up for 12C temperature drop which required one lockshield to be only a quarter of a turn open? Also I have a mix of TRV's some on flow and some on return, is this OK or is it dependant on the type/make of TRV?
Leave the lockshield a quarter turn open it will be fine. TRVS can be either end now. The make of TRV are not critical but the higher quality ones like Drayton are more accurate.
I have 13 rads including 2 towel type and all have TRVs. Do I need to remove one or can arrangement remain as need to appreciate purpose abd benefit of 12 or 13 TRVs. Thank you.
Good quality thermostats
Hi can you please advise me I have lock shield valet both side of the radiators which side to use if I wanted to balance the heating system many thanks loved your video
Hi David it does not matter which side.
Very well explained
Thanks ❤
My pleasure 😊
Does that 12c difference mean that the return pipe at the lock shield is lower than the feed pipe with the TRV? But what about when you turn the TRV down in a room from fully open (5) to say (3) because you don’t want that room too hot, how does that effect the 12c differential?
Will still be the same on all the other rads.
Does this 12 degree rule still apply for old non condensing boilers? I’ve got an old Baxi
Thanks for the videos!
no not those John.
Is there a different temperature I should use for balancing the rads? Trying to get the best I can out of this old thing
My central heating system was originally gravity fed but was converted to a pumped system. The pipes from the boiler go from the ground floor to the pump on the first floor and then, either drop down in boxes in the corner of the rooms to feed the ground floor rads, or, travel under the floor boards to supply the first floor rads. Given the layout, will i be able to work out the sequence of heating?
Yes just check which are heating up first by hand when you switch on from cold.
@@dereton33 Thank you so much for your reply. Much appreciated.
Thanks for this, I really appreciate it. The question I have though is: Should I leave all my TRVs fully open from now on? Thanks.
No need, once balanced.
@@dereton33 OK. Thanks mate. All the best to you.
Does the 12 degrees difference also apply to towel rails? I have read somewhere to ignore a towel rail, as they have such a small effect on the water temperature.
That is right .
Does this negate need for TRVs on towel type ie bathroom in my case radiators?
@@shouwill I'm pretty sure that at least one radiator should be always 'on' so that the boiler has somewhere to pump water if all the TRVs are closed. This is usually the bathroom rad/towel rail.
Thanks for the video. My issue is that I have three radiators connected together, serially, in a bay window. Strangely, the middle one is connected to the two side ones both on the top and at the bottom. The problem is that even with the lock shield valve fully open the temperature difference between incoming and outgoing flow is much larger than 12 degrees. Could this be the fault of the way they are connected or is the pipe work just underdimensioned for the task. Standard copper pipe, not microbore.
Coupling rads in that way will make the temperature difference larger, as the heat has to pass through 15 mm pipe through the middle rad and back to the outer rad.
Yes,that makes sense. The question is then what to expect, something between 12 and 36 degrees as the are three radiators serially connected? I am also thinking of removing the top connectors between the radiators to get a more normal flow through the middle and last radiator. Currently, I can see (I have a simple heat camera) that the middle one especially only get warm at the top and cold lower down whereas the first one in the chain gets warm all the way through. I have also seen from other forums that they way mine are connected is not the standard way it is done.
Does the temp go higher or lower by opening up the lock shield.
It should go higher the more you open it.
Great vid Al. How did you make you simple thermometer? Can you make a video on how you made it?
I did not make it it was bought Sandy.
Very good video. Is it necessary to allow the system to go cold re-heat for each radiator?
No need
Thank you. I’ve seen online, that most condensing boilers in the UK, are more efficient with a return temperature of 45°C. Does that mean the maximum, minimum or average, because mine fluctuates?
Hi, when you have worked out the order of the radiators heating up do you then turn the heating off and all the valves on all the rads ? After this do you only turn on the radiators in the order they heat up eg if i have a total of 12 rads and i am balancing rad 2 - i will leave open rad 1 (as that is now balanced) and also leave off rads 3 to 12 ?
Yes that is correct.
I'm having a problem with a radiator in my bedroom... I've tried it all, bleeding the system of air, checking the thermostat valve, all is good - no air, thermostat valve pin is popping out as far as on all my other radiators.
So now I am looking into trying to balance the system. I thought maybe it could be this because of a recommendation on one of your other videos, but I don't appear to have a lock shield valve.
My thermostat is at the top of the radiator coming off the right hand side, and the opposite left hand side is where I can bleed the radiator with a square shaped key. At the bottom sides there is nothing, and at the very bottom, a bit offset inwards from the left there are two ports with hexagonal heads on them. Is this the thing I need to control? The last thing I want to do is cause a leak!
One of those will be a valve you may find it is almost off, preventing that rad from heating up.
Another question: 2 radiators downstairs have a Delta temperature of around 10 degrees, but the flow temperature is 4 or 5 degrees lower than that of the radiators upstairs. What's the reason?? If I close the lockshield valve a bit more then the flow temperature decreases as well
The boiler stat needs setting higher.
Great video but I have a question. If I adjust my lockshield valve to get 12 degree difference across the radiator will that mess up the balancing of the whole system as in the nearest and furthest radiators and should I try to balance the whiole system first or individual radiators? Many thanks
Balance the whole lot first.
@@dereton33 Thanks will try it today
I’ve taken note of the order. Before I turn it back on do I need to close all the other lock shields too? Or just do the first one then go round and close them each separately then open until 12?
Just do the first one then go round and close separately.
@@dereton33 great Thankyou. Just keep closing until it’s 12 degrees difference?
One more question. My boiler modulates the temperature. So, the flow temperature constantly rises and falls, as does the return temperature. There is therefore a delay between the maximum flow temperature, and the maximum return temperature.
Is the 12°C difference calculated as the difference between both maximum flow and return temperatures, or between the maximum flow and minimum return temperatures?
The Max.
@@dereton33 Thank you.
Should the temperature delta between TRV and lock shield valves be constant even when the modulating boiler is off and therefore the flow temperature is five or six degrees lower?
Not when the boiler is off.
Excellent video, very helpful, thanks.
You're welcome!
Balancing radiators, I have seen so many you tube videos on this subject that are wrong so thought I would correct. This applies to combi boiler systems
Why have a boiler and radiators in the first place, it is to heat every rooms air that has a radiator to a desired temperature to make it comfortable to live in, modern radiator have a (TRV) Thermostatic Radiator Valves which allows the air temperature to be set. The valve at the other end of the radiator needs to be fully open to allow TRV full control.
The combi boiler has two pipes connected to the rad circuit, flow and return. When working the boiler heats the flow water to the temperature set by the rad temp control on the boiler. At the same time it monitors the return temp, as the return temp nears the flow temp the flame is reduced, when nearly the same the flame is turn off only turning on again when over certain difference is monitored.
Always monitor air temp in a room not radiator temp because that is what we feel. If the room is too cold turn up the TRV, if too hot turn down. The TRV should control to this setting.
If you think radiators are getting too hot there may be a cold draft entering the room needing more heat to be used to heat to your temp.
If the room air is not hot enough and you have the TRV fully open there maybe not enough water flowing in the rad i.e. a blockage or simply the boiler is set too low. I know there are many and various more faults but this is the basics.
Thanks Roger.
It would be helpful if you could say which way to turn the lockshield valve (open or close) to increase or decrease the temperature difference across the radiator. Very good video though.
Noted
turn it down to increase temperature differential
Hi! When moving to the second Radiator do you keep the first radiators open?
And is the latter radiators still turned off as you make your way to the end HAS IN SECOND RAD TRV TURNED OFF AND LOCK SHIELD TURNED OFF.
Yes keep the first radiator valves open and as you move to the second the same thing, until you reach the last one.
Hi, quick question, the bathroom radiator has two lock shield valves as it is a heat sink, do these stay fully open during the whole balancing process or close one end down? Thanks in advance!
Still close one end down.
@@dereton33 thank you sir!
Question, I have a system with 3 separate zones. 1 is underfloor heating. The other 2 are upstairs and downstairs rads. Would you do this with every zone open? Each zone has its own pump fed from a low loss header. Thanks
Yes do it with all zones open.
My boiler manual (condenser boiler Logic Plus System S30) says that the temperature differential should be 20 degrees. Should I use this rather than the twelve degrees that you quote? Also, should the radiators be balanced when the hot water is on as well, or just when the heating is on?
Just when the heating is on. You will struggle getting 20 %. 12 is more normal.
@@dereton33 Many thanks.
Does this apply for Radiant Heating System where each radiator has its own flow and return on a manifold panel?
Sorry no.
Thank you! There are actually zero hits on how to balance a Radiant Heating System, so your reply is a godsend. @@dereton33
Err..12 Deg higher or lower (when adjusting the lock shield valve)?
That is right.
@@dereton33 Not sure I understand your reply Al to Giuseppe. So if the thermostat reads say 25, should the lockshield side read 37?
If the thermostatic valve is on the flow (most are) then that will be the one reading 37 and the lockshield 25.
Thanks for your video. Was very helpful
You're welcome!
Loving all your helpful videos :-)
Thanks Chris.
Is this the same procedure with a micro bore system were all the pipes come from a number of manifolds?
No it will not work with a micro bore system.
Has the TRV side have to be 12 deg lower or higher than locksheild side?
Lower. so long as the TRV is fitted to the flow.
Is that 12deg diff between delivery and return. Delivery being the hotter?
Yes Lynne.
Why is the diference of temperature in front of radiator and behind it 12 C°? Why not 20 or 5?
I know that the temperature difference effects the heat output of the radiators. So i assumed that this difference should be adequate for the heating system as a whole compared to heat loss of the building to match the output of radiators. Or am I wrong? Thank you and have a great day
Yes that is strange, but it does all depend on your boiler, how many Rads ect.
If you have a system that controls every trv (wireless) do you still need to balance the rads? Cheers Al
Yes Rick.
dereton33 Thanks Al
sorry to come across as dumb, but when you mention about the 12 degrees difference which pipe should be hotter than the other is the lockshield end hotter or the TRV end or doesnt it matter as long as there is a 12 degrees difference or can only 1 pipe be the hotter one no matter what you do so it is self explanatory?
So long as there is the 12 degree difference it does not matter.
@@dereton33Hello! If the temperature diference is 20 grade is need close or open the retur?
I bought a thermometer to balance my system but it's extremely hard to tell which rads heat up first! Any tips?
Use a partner to help you. Turn on the heating from cold then working away from the boiler see which ones warm up first.
@@dereton33 i had my other half and daughter helping but it still seems really hard to work it out without seeing a pipe diagram. We'll try again. Thanks for the response!
Where is the link to the goig quality pipe thermostats? Thanks Al
In the video description Chris.
Should the lock sheild valve be on the flow or return side of the rad ?
Return
That`s right the return, but you may find the odd new ones on the flow as thermostatic rad valves can now be fitted either way round.
Does the 12c need to be higher or lower on the lock shield end?
Lower. As it should be the return.
If the lockshield is on the flow side though then the lower temp will be at the other end (the return)
My boiler is losing pressure. Been happening for just over a week. I wrapped toilet roll around every pipe in the house to find the leak but nothing. I'm having to top up the boiler every day before turning the heating on. Also, it's a condensing boiler but there's no vapour coming from the flue when the heating is on , only when the hot tap is being used. Does that indicate it's not condensing properly? Thanks.
Check the overflow from your boiler, if there are no obvious leaks on all your radiators valves or pipes in the floor/ceiling you will likely find its the pressure relief valve inside the combi boiler that is stuck open, you will see a little pipe just under the boiler flue on the outside of the house, if water is coming out of that then its the pressure relief valve, they are cheap enough to change out, if your having to refill every day you would really notice that leak if it were inside the house.
Thanks for answering that one Knoxieman.
Or the expansion vessel needs recharging or replacing if it's a sealed system
Vaillant ?
@@MrElliott1979 It's a veissmann condensing boiler
When measuring the drop across each rad, do you keep demand at maximum i.e. open the windows so the rad is working flat out ??
Yes.
@@dereton33 Thanks
Hi, I'm currently helping my parents with their heating, having had problems with some radiators staying cold, we spent yesterday switching each one on in turn, on it's own, to find out whether it was working OK, whether any bleeding was necessary and also whether there were any cold spots. All passed the test, so we now assume they need balancing to sort out the problems. The weird part is, they had both the bathroom and en-suite radiators replaced at some stage with towel rails, neither have TRVs, just a cylindrical valve at each end which can easily be closed or opened by hand. How should these form part of the balancing process? We've noticed strange things with the towel rails, for example, one hots up very quickly indeed, the other takes far longer, but also there seems to be conflict between one of the towel rails and one of the radiators (you turn one up, the other goes off). All good fun.
the towel rads are sharing the same line. Just adjust one if the valves on the flow side to balance these.
@@dereton33 can I not just fully open one TRV instead of removal or must the towel rad have two lockshields. If the latter how are these set eg both fully open..?
Hi do I need to balance indirect heating cylinder as well. If Yes how. Many thanks.
No need.
@@dereton33 Many thanks. The reason why I ask this questions is that the water from hot water tap is not warm but the radiator is very warm - it takes a long time to use warm water - maybe this because it's indirect heating cylinder?
Thought you’d have worn your Christmas jumper Al lol
Gave it a thought .
I had new radiators double convection installed through out the house. Got a system boiler the heating comes on every hour. And stays on for 15 miniutes. House seems to hold the heat for for a very long time before switching in again.
Seems very efficient or am.I missing something? Can you explain some details what's happening and why ? Thanks .
You just have a well insulated house and with double convector rads fitted it will not take long to heat your house, so you will find the boiler does not have to stay on so long.
@@dereton33 so if the insulation is good that will negate the effects of unbalanced radiators or is this a poor assumption? Could you give an explanation on good insulation Vs balanced radiators. Balancing radiators is about reducing the loss of heat through the system am I right? So having good insulation negates this problem?
@@setitthen Balancing the radiators is about making the distribution of heat even throughout the house, so that the radiators all pull their weight. If the system is unbalanced, you will have some rads hotter than others and likely will end up wasting heat (=fossil fuel, and also money) by turning the thermostat up to make the coldest room warm enough - and in doing so causing the ones already warm enough to overheat. Either that, or leaving doors open to try to spread the heat around.
Good insulation is ALWAYS a good idea, and it's not EITHER this OR balancing the system as you suggest.
Best of all, if you've got good insulation, a balanced system AND a load or weather-compensating boiler that's not oversized, you will then get the boiler reducing its flow temperature on all but the coldest of days. And the magic of a low flow temperature is that it keeps the boiler in condensing mode - which wrings up to another 11% in efficiency out of the system.
Hi how do you balance a rad that has the lockshield on the flow side and the trv on the return?
Still use the locksheild valve leave the TRV fully open.
Do you have any videos on solid fuel heating system? We have a coal fire what heats the upstairs radiators automatically when the water his hot but I can’t turn on the radiators downstairs until the water is 85c so it hard for me to balance the system.
Thank you
Sorry Liam I have nothing on solid fuel boilers.
dereton33 no problem Thank you for getting back in touch 😀
Liam, not a plumber but had a system similar to yours for many years. The rads upstairs that was permanently on are a safety feature to ensure excess heat is being removed from the boiler when the fire is lit and it is important they are never turned off when the fire is lit..I would not bother to balance these unless you have an issue. As for the rads down stairs balance them like in the video as they are indipendent of the rads upstairs due to the main thermostat.
Peter Evans Thanks for that Peter, I did turn all the upstairs rads down to half a turn or a full turn can’t really remember now, so should I turn all them back fully open? And just balance the 5 rads downstairs? Sorry if this doesn’t make much sense 😀
Is it me or was the white balance set wrong on the camera when this vid was shot, as it looks so blue in that kitchen, or was it done like that to give an impression of cold, as it's about heating?!
T`was chilly.
I was once told that one of the rads on your system had to be fully open, both lock shield and TRV. Any truth in this before I start balancing ?
Not if you have a combi or a bypass valve on a F and E system.
@@dereton33 Thanks for the reply, and thank you for all of your videos they have really helped me out over the years. F&E system red plastic capped valve in the airing cupboard so guessing that's it.
What if you have plastic pipes, how do you sense the temp reading then?
Stick the probes on the radiator valve sides.
is there a way to find out the order that my rad's are in or is it just closest to the boiling to furthest?
Just closest to the furthest.
Thanks
Thanks for the donation Richard.
Is this the same for a one-pipe CH system as a two-pipe system ?
Yes.
Instead of standing round like a plum invest in a clothes peg (to hold the sensor) ... or buy a thermometer with 2 probes if you actually want to see the true drop ... of course then you’ll need a second clothes peg!
Thanks Andy.
fantastic
Thank you so much 😀
Thanks!
Thanks Andy for the donation.
Hi al , i managed to follow your advice by turning the downstairs rads by 1 full turn and it's made all the difference they all heat up very quickly!
Just one more thing regarding the balancing valve on the coil, how many turns on this valve will give sufficient hot water time and not rob heat from the radiators if both are on demand?
I have counted the number of turns and it takes 4 full turns and a quarter from fully closed to fully open, its fully open at the moment.
My system is a y plan with a Worcester 18ri condensing boiler if that helps?
Thanks
I would give it one and a half turns.
@@dereton33 thanks again
If there is only one of you, In a large house could you open all the valves etc to max and test the temps at the rads. Would the highest temp be the first one, the next highest the second one etc. then if there are ones that are off you’d only have find the order of those couple.
Yes that should be ok.
Brilliant.
Would one of those infrared temperature gauges be good enough. I have one and it would speed things up.
Absolutely
Exactly the video I wanted :-)
When opening each radiator to adjust the temperature do I open the TRV completely or only to the required temperature when in use?
Open it completely Trevor.
@@dereton33 Thanks, I guessed that was the case and did my system yesterday. I had problems getting the temperature difference right I think partly because some of our TRVs are fitted on the flow side and some on the other end so it was a bit hit and miss. I also used a laser thermometer which gave one or two iffy readings on pipes that had been painted over. Might not be perfect but had the desired effect as two radiators at the end of the system are now much warmer than they used to be.
A couple of questions. I had one rattling radiator this morning and one hissing I'm guessing this is because it was the first time the system had been used after my re-balancing it. The other is that one or two rads are cooler at the bottom than top by a few degrees it seems to be more the further they are away from the boiler.
You were right about the time it takes. I have 11 radiators and was doing the last one at 11:00 last night! I found leaving the larger more distant radiators for half an hour after switching them on helped get better results.
Thanks once again your videos are really useful.
Hi Al,
Great video again! Just wondering, would it be a safe assumption that my radiators upstairs are heating up first as my boiler is in my loft?
Thanks.
Boiler in the loft ???
Yes that is right.
@@dereton33 Thank you :)
Thanks for the helpful video. Can I use a cooking thermometer?
Yes you can! No to sure of its accuracy though.
Can do it by touching the rad
Ha ha the cheap way.
how difficult it is to install central heating for beginners
Quite difficult I am afraid.
Great instructional video, as they all are. Two questions though... I've turned both TRVs and lockshield valves fully open and have identified the order in which my 7 radiators heat up. I've gone to the first one as directed and turned the lockshield valve off and opened it up a quarter turn until there's a 12° difference. Are the lockshield valves on the remaining 6 radiators still fully open at this point, or are they closed down at the same time as the first? Is it a case of closing each one in turn as you make your way around and adjusting as necessary? I'm not too clear. Thanks.
They should all be closed down.
Top banana, much appreciated.
Thanks for the information, but if on a air source heat of 44 degree running from the boiler, would I still be looking for a 12 degree difference ?
Yes that is the norm.
Thank you very much for the info👍
Glad it was helpful!
@dereton33 All the rads in my flat have TRV's fitted, except for the large rad in the front room. It just has two lockshield valves, one on either end. Also, the thermostat is on the wall in the front room. How do I go about adjusting them?
That rad has been configured as the bypass radiator, which is why it does not have a thermostatic valve on it. Leave one end fully open and just adjust it on the one valve.
@@dereton33 Cheers, Al. You're a good un ;)
Great Video.
I've gone and ordered the digital version you suggested in your info, but I've come to realise that when I had the bathroom done; the Plumber mounted the LS on the Flow and TRV on the return. How do I balance this? Open the LS fully, and adjust the TRV with the nut below the head?
Or by some other way?
It does not matter, still do all adjustments with the TRV open and adjust using the lockshield. Use the nut below the head of the TRV.
@@dereton33 thanks for that.
I am curious though, I have a condensing combi; should I still do the 11c difference or 22c from what I've read?
As always, your input and advice is appreciated
You can get little tools for adjusting lockshield valves more carefully and it's a bit easier and less damaging than using pliers.
Thanks for the info.
Hi mate.. why are the videos turning blue.. are you inside a fridge lol
Seems my camera is on the blink.
I want to try and balance my radiators as I am finding I have to turn 2 upstairs radiator off, and lower the thermostatic valve on 2 radiators to get all the radiators downstairs to heat up. Following this process, When I check to see the order each radiator is heating up, the radiators downstairs such as living room, kitchen do not warm up, what do I do in this case?
Turn off all the rad except those two wait for them to heat up and work away from those two.
I dont understand why you need to turn on, turn off, turn on etc the system, seems a waste of time. Why not turn on once, let it get up to temperature, then go around once with your thermometer adjusting lockshields for 12C difference across each rad?
That is your option. I am only showing the correct way I have always been told to get it right.
No, I wasn’t expressing an opinion, it was a question. At the moment I don‘t see the point in doing the balancing in any particular order if it is just a matter of setting a 12C drop across each rad, but then every source I’ve checked all say do it in that order. But then I’m suffering lack of sleep & not thinking very clearly.
And apologies if you really meant to say “option”; I read it as “opinion”. I *am* really tired!!
Al do yourself a favour buy a laser thermometer gun 😉...
Good idea.
They don't work reliably on relective surfaces, like chromed radiator valves.
Thanks
No problem. Thanks for the donation.