So glad you made this video so that the information will get out there. Personally, I've grown weary of explaining it to people. I generally shoot only damascus, and if in sound condition, they are fine. The reason I shoot light loads is not because of the barrels, but because of the stocks, which most often need to be treated gently in old age. It's rare for one to come in the shop without some need of stock repair. Barrels are rarely an issue if the gun has been cared for, but they should always be given the full check-up by someone specializing in vintage doubles. Not every gunsmith fits that category.
Thanks a lot for a great video. I rarely shoot anything but hammerguns with damascu barrels and as long as you go for 2½ with not too much pressure they do very nicely. My favourite gun is a Trulock bros. from approximately 1870 with a jones lever. It is slow, un-practial and everything you need for hunting. Only problem is that in my country - Denmark - 2½'s are getting difficult go come by.
You can cut the crimps off 2-3/4" and glue a cap on them, with the right propellant charge. But it's also a common size shell in the UK and other parts of Europe, so should be sourceable with research.
I have Grandpa’s shotgun. It is…. Royal Gunworks 12 ga side by side external hammer, Damascus barrels. Grandpa was born in 1884, he purchased it in 1900 for his 16th birthday. It was used then no one can determine exactly when it was manufactured. I have owned it from age 10 (1959). I did shoot it when I was a kid but it has been in permanent retirement since approximately 1963. It will be passed to my grandson when I expire.
It's Belgian. Some sources say it was made by Henri Pieper, in which case as long as it's in good condition it's perfectly safe to shoot. Even if not, keep it oiled and clean, because someone else might "Try" it, and be sure they're aware of the chamber dimensions.
I had hoped you would have included loading the modern brass shells for these guns..I have an 1886 Elsie,use ff and bird shot at a twenty ga level...just make sure that no plastic wads with out an over powder card under ie melted plastic. I use free hulls,cut off the crimp and use over shot card . Gets attention the first round...who blew up their gun??
Thanks for the reassuring words. I recently picked up a Remington M1894 with Damascus barrels and even with my years of research identifying the ACTUAL problems shooting Dam barrel guns, the safety sally comments ive been getting about it were still weighing me down. People out of the blue claiming im gonna lose my hands and turn paraplegic even if I shoot low-power Blackpowder handloads. I mean the old guy I bought it from said he and his Dad hunted with it which means they put modern/smokeless shells through it.
Very nice video! My Wesley Richards 20ga 21/2 from 1882 is an early Anson & Deeley boxlock. I use Eley VIP Bismuth cartridges without any problems. In case of clay shooting the Rottweil Fasan 16/67,5 is my choice. This is a very nice and functional gun with modern handling and oldfashioned high end craftmanship. HNY from Norddeutschland!
My WR is from 1879, a very early Anson and Deeley boxlock. And the balance is fantastic. My wife has a Williams & Powell (Liverpool, not William Powell, London) with an early A&D patent number.
Thanks, timely. I came into a W. Richards which I believe is the Belgian copy. Haven't found the right Gunsmith that knows them well enough to offer an authoritative opinion. This is a great video, thanks for the share.
There are two different W. Richards. One is Westley Richards, Liverpool, who predates Westley Richards, London, and used the trade name W. Richards. I actually grew up very close to where their factory used to be (I was in Birkenhead, right across the harbor). They are an excellent maker and I have a couple of their guns. They will have Birmingham proof marks under the barrels and on the water table of the action. There's also a W. Richards, Belgium, which was a house brand trying to play off Westley Richards. Those are an okay gun, but many were shot heavily. It will have Belgian proof marks (ELG in an oval, with a crown after 1893).
@@SharpPointyThings Great info, I just looked mine over again and found scroll writing where I hadn't seen it before - on the top metal separator between the two barrels it says W. Richards London Fine Twist.I am leaning towards it is one of the Belgium guns, from forums I have visited.
Probably. That's the "top rib." The proof marks under the barrel will be conclusive. It's easy to dismount the barrels, you can find videos showing how.
I wish I would’ve found this video a few days ago. I’ve been scratching my head on my old 1873 Era Charles daily side-by-side 10 gauge. I’ve been hand loading for it the last couple of year's but started with 2 7/8 inch RST ammo. I measured the inside of my chambers to the forcing cone the other day. Got measurements of 2.775” i’m pretty sure the factory loaded 2 7/8” RST hulls are longer than my chamber and probably overlapping the forcing cones that I had to guess. They never patterned worth a darn. I’ll have to measure a factory hull unfolded.
I have an Elsie 1886 hammerless 12ga.....I thought the barrels were etched and proofed it w two trap loads down ea tube...then found out they're stub twist. Now it gets 75gr black w oz of shot no larger than five. I use cheap/ free hulls and put a nitro card over powder even w plastic wads...to prevent melting... This shotgun is one of the finest shotguns I've shouldered. I'd love a 28 or 24ga but cost....
This is always an interesting topic of conversation. I would add that, although pristine appearance of barrel interiors is comforting, a common practice in the past was to hone corroded and/or pitted barrels. Original chambers and/or forcing cones could have been lengthened. Any of these means that the barrels are no longer in proof. It's important that any gun that is going to be brought back into service have its barrel thicknesses measured at multiple points. It's very surprising how thin some of these old barrels can be. 2 5/8 in. chambers in old American guns, including in the fluid steel era, are common. Parker Bros. stated that those lengths were not lengthened when 2 3/4" became "standard". After the Remington acquisition, at some point they were lengthened. Firing modern 2 3/4" shells in a 12 ga. 2 1/2" chambered gun can be expected to add about 1000 psi to chamber pressures. That may or may not be important depending. I am not familiar with the Birmingham Proof House study you quoted. I know about the one from 1888. Those barrels were not cut to the usual thicknesses of shotgun barrels, a curious thing. We all know about Sherman Bell's good study of the topic with Remington's and Larry Potterfield's assistant. That one (?) set of fluid steel barrels were a molybdenum alloy quite different from modern ones.
Something that must be said about Damascus barrels is: Damascus steel is LAYERED steel - not the same as fluid steel, modern barrels. As such, age and rust can result in layer separation and migration of atmospheric hydrogen between the layers, causing hydrogen embrittlement of the steel, weakening it. It does NOT mean that Damascus barrels are unsafe a priori; it does mean that old Damascus steel of indeterminate provenance MAY exhibit embrittlement. The safest way to shoot an old 12 gauge is to use a 20 gauge insert and shoot 20 gauge shells in it - that completely eliminates the risk of catastrophic damage to the gun, which is a laudable goal for a curator of these century-plus-old heirlooms.
i own a Husqvarna double barrel shotgun 12ga(blackpowder) made in 1884, crime rates are getting higher and i would love to use my shotgun for defense purposes, i saw a shop that sold modern rubberball 12ga rounds, will my shotgun handle the pressure since its modern powder?
Very good info thank you for this. I have a 1890’s Remington I received from a close family friend we farmed for for a long time. It had a twisted steel barrel that doesn’t have that intricate design that some of the Damascus barrels have. It is a 10 gauge gun. I have yet to find a gunsmith that can measure the bores on it. 2 questions. Is the twisted steel a lower quality steel then Damascus? And would it also be a 2 1/2 inch shell? Only marking on it is a serial number and all the research I’ve done is saying it’s a 10 gauge and it was made sometime in the 1890’s. It’s likely a very common gun and almost every farm house on the prairies had one leaning on the wall but that’s besides the point. To me it’s a piece of history and deserves to be preserved as such
Excellent video! I fully agree with you. Ive been shooting damascus for decades. Mostly with black powder and nitro where appropriate. Although less common, there are some vintage shotguns with factory 2 3/4" chambers. That is Not to say that just because an antique shotgun has modern chambers it should automatically be assumed to be safe with modern ammo! My advice to anyone is to be aware that they were all originally made for black powder so if it hasnt been re proofed or you arent sure, have a qualified gunsmith check it and stick with black to be safe. Chamber gauges are cheap...just get one and at least that part of the mystery is solved. Thanks!
Could you have the chamber cut and use 2 3/4" shells? I am certain the gun would lose some of it's collectors value. Here, in the States, 2 1/2" shells are rarer than hen's teeth, and cost like they are loaded with gold! I just looked them up for my brothers gun. They are on back order, and run $200.00 per box!
So many people still think Damascus is the best steel around. It was very good steel when it eas first invented but modern monosteel is objectively better performance wise. That being said, Damascus looks incredible and I would definitely display a Damascus shotgun over my fireplace.
Thank you ! ! ! For shutting up these armchair experts, im so sick of thier ignorance, hey I'm trying to find a hammer for a JP Claybrough any leads for me ?
So glad you made this video so that the information will get out there. Personally, I've grown weary of explaining it to people. I generally shoot only damascus, and if in sound condition, they are fine. The reason I shoot light loads is not because of the barrels, but because of the stocks, which most often need to be treated gently in old age. It's rare for one to come in the shop without some need of stock repair. Barrels are rarely an issue if the gun has been cared for, but they should always be given the full check-up by someone specializing in vintage doubles. Not every gunsmith fits that category.
An excellent presentation, Mike. My family is relatively new to gun ownership, so every bit of good information that we can get is cherished.
He did a good job of explaining the use of damascus and the chamber length. Nice.
Thanks for a very informative review of some classic bird guns. 😎
Thanks Mike! Definitely going to feed my two damascus steel doubles 2.5", since they are both turn of the 20th century.
Check chambers first. Some American guns are 2.75"
@@SharpPointyThings noted. One of them is a 1901/1904 Remington, so may be 2.75".
Thanks a lot for a great video. I rarely shoot anything but hammerguns with damascu barrels and as long as you go for 2½ with not too much pressure they do very nicely. My favourite gun is a Trulock bros. from approximately 1870 with a jones lever. It is slow, un-practial and everything you need for hunting. Only problem is that in my country - Denmark - 2½'s are getting difficult go come by.
You can cut the crimps off 2-3/4" and glue a cap on them, with the right propellant charge. But it's also a common size shell in the UK and other parts of Europe, so should be sourceable with research.
Find brass casings and have fun
I have Grandpa’s shotgun. It is…. Royal Gunworks 12 ga side by side external hammer, Damascus barrels. Grandpa was born in 1884, he purchased it in 1900 for his 16th birthday. It was used then no one can determine exactly when it was manufactured. I have owned it from age 10 (1959). I did shoot it when I was a kid but it has been in permanent retirement since approximately 1963. It will be passed to my grandson when I expire.
It's Belgian. Some sources say it was made by Henri Pieper, in which case as long as it's in good condition it's perfectly safe to shoot. Even if not, keep it oiled and clean, because someone else might "Try" it, and be sure they're aware of the chamber dimensions.
I had hoped you would have included loading the modern brass shells for these guns..I have an 1886 Elsie,use ff and bird shot at a twenty ga level...just make sure that no plastic wads with out an over powder card under ie melted plastic.
I use free hulls,cut off the crimp and use over shot card . Gets attention the first round...who blew up their gun??
Great info on shell-length as a factor in over-pressure.
Thanks for the reassuring words. I recently picked up a Remington M1894 with Damascus barrels and even with my years of research identifying the ACTUAL problems shooting Dam barrel guns, the safety sally comments ive been getting about it were still weighing me down. People out of the blue claiming im gonna lose my hands and turn paraplegic even if I shoot low-power Blackpowder handloads. I mean the old guy I bought it from said he and his Dad hunted with it which means they put modern/smokeless shells through it.
Very nice video! My Wesley Richards 20ga 21/2 from 1882 is an early Anson & Deeley boxlock. I use Eley VIP Bismuth cartridges without any problems. In case of clay shooting the Rottweil Fasan 16/67,5 is my choice. This is a very nice and functional gun with modern handling and oldfashioned high end craftmanship. HNY from Norddeutschland!
My WR is from 1879, a very early Anson and Deeley boxlock. And the balance is fantastic. My wife has a Williams & Powell (Liverpool, not William Powell, London) with an early A&D patent number.
Very well done!
Beautiful guns and good information.
Very interesting, I wasn't aware of this. Thanks!
Thanks, timely. I came into a W. Richards which I believe is the Belgian copy. Haven't found the right Gunsmith that knows them well enough to offer an authoritative opinion. This is a great video, thanks for the share.
There are two different W. Richards. One is Westley Richards, Liverpool, who predates Westley Richards, London, and used the trade name W. Richards. I actually grew up very close to where their factory used to be (I was in Birkenhead, right across the harbor). They are an excellent maker and I have a couple of their guns. They will have Birmingham proof marks under the barrels and on the water table of the action.
There's also a W. Richards, Belgium, which was a house brand trying to play off Westley Richards. Those are an okay gun, but many were shot heavily. It will have Belgian proof marks (ELG in an oval, with a crown after 1893).
@@SharpPointyThings Great info, I just looked mine over again and found scroll writing where I hadn't seen it before - on the top metal separator between the two barrels it says W. Richards London Fine Twist.I am leaning towards it is one of the Belgium guns, from forums I have visited.
Probably. That's the "top rib." The proof marks under the barrel will be conclusive. It's easy to dismount the barrels, you can find videos showing how.
@@SharpPointyThings Thanks - I will check.
I wish I would’ve found this video a few days ago. I’ve been scratching my head on my old 1873 Era Charles daily side-by-side 10 gauge. I’ve been hand loading for it the last couple of year's but started with 2 7/8 inch RST ammo. I measured the inside of my chambers to the forcing cone the other day. Got measurements of 2.775” i’m pretty sure the factory loaded 2 7/8” RST hulls are longer than my chamber and probably overlapping the forcing cones that I had to guess. They never patterned worth a darn. I’ll have to measure a factory hull unfolded.
All beautiful guns
How much are they worth
Informative. Nice Pieces.
A 2 1/2 is 2 1/2 open
Correct.
I have an Elsie 1886 hammerless 12ga.....I thought the barrels were etched and proofed it w two trap loads down ea tube...then found out they're stub twist. Now it gets 75gr black w oz of shot no larger than five. I use cheap/ free hulls and put a nitro card over powder even w plastic wads...to prevent melting...
This shotgun is one of the finest shotguns I've shouldered. I'd love a 28 or 24ga but cost....
This is always an interesting topic of conversation. I would add that, although pristine appearance of barrel interiors is comforting, a common practice in the past was to hone corroded and/or pitted barrels. Original chambers and/or forcing cones could have been lengthened. Any of these means that the barrels are no longer in proof. It's important that any gun that is going to be brought back into service have its barrel thicknesses measured at multiple points. It's very surprising how thin some of these old barrels can be.
2 5/8 in. chambers in old American guns, including in the fluid steel era, are common.
Parker Bros. stated that those lengths were not lengthened when 2 3/4" became "standard".
After the Remington acquisition, at some point they were lengthened. Firing modern 2 3/4" shells in a 12 ga. 2 1/2" chambered gun can be expected to add about 1000 psi to chamber pressures. That may or may not be important depending.
I am not familiar with the Birmingham Proof House study you quoted. I know about the one from 1888. Those barrels were not cut to the usual thicknesses of shotgun barrels, a curious thing. We all know about Sherman Bell's good study of the topic with Remington's and Larry Potterfield's assistant. That one (?) set of fluid steel barrels were a molybdenum alloy quite different from modern ones.
Something that must be said about Damascus barrels is: Damascus steel is LAYERED steel - not the same as fluid steel, modern barrels. As such, age and rust can result in layer separation and migration of atmospheric hydrogen between the layers, causing hydrogen embrittlement of the steel, weakening it. It does NOT mean that Damascus barrels are unsafe a priori; it does mean that old Damascus steel of indeterminate provenance MAY exhibit embrittlement.
The safest way to shoot an old 12 gauge is to use a 20 gauge insert and shoot 20 gauge shells in it - that completely eliminates the risk of catastrophic damage to the gun, which is a laudable goal for a curator of these century-plus-old heirlooms.
i own a Husqvarna double barrel shotgun 12ga(blackpowder) made in 1884, crime rates are getting higher and i would love to use my shotgun for defense purposes, i saw a shop that sold modern rubberball 12ga rounds, will my shotgun handle the pressure since its modern powder?
Great information!
Very good info thank you for this. I have a 1890’s Remington I received from a close family friend we farmed for for a long time. It had a twisted steel barrel that doesn’t have that intricate design that some of the Damascus barrels have. It is a 10 gauge gun. I have yet to find a gunsmith that can measure the bores on it. 2 questions. Is the twisted steel a lower quality steel then Damascus? And would it also be a 2 1/2 inch shell? Only marking on it is a serial number and all the research I’ve done is saying it’s a 10 gauge and it was made sometime in the 1890’s. It’s likely a very common gun and almost every farm house on the prairies had one leaning on the wall but that’s besides the point. To me it’s a piece of history and deserves to be preserved as such
Very nice guns. Great info.
Those are all in nice condition. Did you manage to buy them like that, or have you done some work to them?
Boomy shooty things on the pointy stabby things channel, I approve of this upgrade.
Excellent video! I fully agree with you. Ive been shooting damascus for decades. Mostly with black powder and nitro where appropriate. Although less common, there are some vintage shotguns with factory 2 3/4" chambers. That is Not to say that just because an antique shotgun has modern chambers it should automatically be assumed to be safe with modern ammo! My advice to anyone is to be aware that they were all originally made for black powder so if it hasnt been re proofed or you arent sure, have a qualified gunsmith check it and stick with black to be safe. Chamber gauges are cheap...just get one and at least that part of the mystery is solved. Thanks!
I've seen an 1880s W&C Scott & Sons 10 gauge damascus reproofed for modern 3.5" magnum.
I own this make Gun kindly let me know what make it is.
Nice video beautiful shotguns but your saying you can shoot smokeless powder
Where did you read up on these guns
There are numerous papers available. I hope to upload some to my page shortly, in the reference section. The proof marks are always valid, though.
Muito lindas. Se pudesse teria todas.
Ive got several damascus and twist barreled guns.. English/belgian..12 and 16 gauge guns.... No issues..
Shoot right ammo..and enjoy them..
Could you have the chamber cut and use 2 3/4" shells? I am certain the gun would lose some of it's collectors value. Here, in the States, 2 1/2" shells are rarer than hen's teeth, and cost like they are loaded with gold! I just looked them up for my brothers gun. They are on back order, and run $200.00 per box!
I have an LC Smith 1926 approximately with 2 9/16" chambers. Enjoy out there but be safe.
Old style quality 👌
So many people still think Damascus is the best steel around. It was very good steel when it eas first invented but modern monosteel is objectively better performance wise. That being said, Damascus looks incredible and I would definitely display a Damascus shotgun over my fireplace.
Modern steel is certainly better, but damascus is pretty and perfectly fine in normal usage with proper loads.
@aniquinstark4347 What have you based your information from that modern monosteel is objectively better performance wise?
Excellent '' Great Stuff ''💯💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Thank you ! ! ! For shutting up these armchair experts, im so sick of thier ignorance, hey I'm trying to find a hammer for a JP Claybrough any leads for me ?
Mike you need a Mic
Are you aware you repeated yourself?
Yes, we did several takes and edited. Still working out the process on some of this.
Thank God I can delete this bullshit.
Excellent '' Great Stuff ''💯💥💥💥💥💥💥💥