LOVE the honesty and openness here! More brands need to do this and less of the overtly PR nonsense. Loved the open conversation about VPP and the c vs cc carbon etc. Good job gentlemen.
Very likely that uphill focused riders will not be in love. But like anything else in life, we’re all able to have our own tastes or opinions. Just like two food critics who could have very different reviews after eating at the same restaurant.
@@TheLoamWolf the reviews I'm seeing are people don't like that it's not as fun as the previous models. no complaints about the uphill ride but more about the downhill fun factor.
One person’s fun isn’t necessarily the same as another’s. It might not be quite as agile or poppy, but it’s better through the rough stuff that we like to have fun on..
Great looking bike. Appreciate the transparency, but to be honest, saving 100g and giving up the option of a cable actuated drivetrain is crazy. Hopefully V5.1 has cable ports again. Can't wait to demo one myself
There's been too much of a focus on pedalling performance on AM/enduro bikes over the past 5 years. It does come at the expense of DH performance to some extent. I don't get why brands pursued it so much when shocks have features like climb switches. Good to see Santa Cruz going in the right direction on this.
Damn, removing the routing for the gear cable altogether is like apple removing the headphone jack type of move. I use AXS but i still want the option to go cable if i have to
Right there with you. I want to build up a frame, but I'm going to run cables, because I think a well working cable actuated drivetrain works better and faster than any transmission drivetrain I've ridden.
Geez, I was getting ready to buy a Bronson last week -- This looks like a big improvement and is likely going to be on my new list! Great job on the video
I’m really happy to see people talking about suspension/antisquat in this way. I see lots of people judging suspension based on how much anti squat it has but they forget that more anti squat results in harsher suspension. All suspension tuning is a compromise so if you want super plush then you can’t put in heaps of anti squat.
Agree. I’ve owned quite a few SC bikes and they’ve all felt “chattery” over choppy terrain. Always was a big negative. My fav bikes had low AS but they still pedaled well because the shock tune wasn’t too soft off the top. They had at least modest LSC to give support for pedaling, not AS. I could dial the LSC to my liking but you can’t dial out the AS.
I am confused about people in the comments. People seem to ignore that the C frame has cable routing. Or are people seriously butthurt that they have to spend less on the frame if they want cable routing? Sure, if it is a trend and cable routing won't be an option in the futurre alltogether i am with you. But to me it makes sense for the marginally lighter frame (which is pure luxury to be honest) to be focused on the luxury components. (More so as i am regularly trying to make my 5010 heavier for bikeparks and would do that on a Bronson for sure)
I would like to decide to buy frame only to run a cable drivetrain. But I can’t do that because only the CC frame is available. This is forcing people up to the higher spec models with the higher profit margins. Or buy a £/$5k build, for the frame. Let’s say £/$2.8k for the C’s frame cost. Which leaves £2.2k for the rest of the components. You couldn’t even recover 50% from selling the worthless parts. An NX groupset (£100), Fox Rhythm (£200), Shock (£200) and wheels (£100). Stem, bars, brakes, grips (£150) £1200-£1500 down for the privilege of a cabled drivetrain
Very interested in your longer term thoughts about VPP suspension performance and if the past harshness (on repeated square edge hits) you've experienced has been sorted out with the latest design. If it has, then will SC apply this to other models such as the Heckler SL?
Because of the motor it might be harder to lower the shock further. However I am wondering if they already maybe applied this to the Heckler SL, since it doesn't need as an efficient pedal platform? Loam Wolf, any thoughts?
I’m currently riding a V4 with a DHx2 and a cascade link. I’m curious if the new stock V5 is comparable. Also, is there room for a coil on the V5? I always appreciate your reviews they’re spot on! Thanks
Amazing Video as always! Now I have to decide if I should get the Stumpy 15 pro or the new Bronson in the XO AXS RSV setup. What do you think are the pros and cons?
I got the Stumpy 15 Expert and I’ve been loving it so far. Really capable bike. It really does feel like you’re riding a 170mm bike but still playful like a short travel bike. I haven’t played with the volume spacers or any of the geo adjust yet, just enjoying the stock setup for now. Fantastic. The Bronson looks awesome too so win-win either way.
@@The.JZA. cheers! Thanks a lot for your feedback! That’s what I thought as well. Either way, I can’t go wrong. Since I am from Munich and there is no Santa Cruz store but a Specialized store I am tempted to get the Stumpy. Do you think I can take the stumpy for some Bile Park laps? Mostly Flow trails and jumps with landing.
@@pauk9638 Yeah man it would be all good for bike park laps but if you are planning on going there regularly then I’d recommend an enduro bike. The Stumpy will do it just fine though.
I will have to buy a new tray style bike rack when I get a new bike because bikes keep getting longer and longer. Doesn't anyone ride tight, twisty, and technical trails anymore?
@@The.JZA. Well, that makes perfect sense then 👍🏻 I have heard people just not wanting different brands on their bikes and it has never made sense to me - service availability does though.
@@michaelmicallef668Yes an extremely expensive bike should come with everything you need/want. I’m not gonna shell out thousands just to shell out more when I could just buy a different bike that has what I want from the start.
Some things are hard to understand, if no EDR racer uses Mullet bike or maybe just a few uses Mullet why do a 160/150mm travel Enduro bike with Mullet? Doesn't make sense, also fitting these super strong brake in this light trail bike...
Super strobg brakes have always their place. And only a small percentage of enduro bike users have the intention to race. So run what you like and what‘s the most fun for you..
If you live in the Alps, you'll be very happy to have real brakes on a bike at this incredible price. And you don't have to be a racing rider to dislike XT /code and other light brakes.
I love Santa Cruz and I’ve always wanted to buy one of their bikes, but how am I supposed to pay for it? They are so expensive and the build kit has absolutely no value for the money. To me it’s just sad to see, because I actually think they make the best bikes out there.
If I heard correct… Did you just completely gloss over the fact that the CC has no gear shift routing? This bs needs to be called out, the most ridiculous new trend from bike brands. Yeah we saved 100 grams, well the build kit is 15kg+ anyway, who gives a fuck!
Don’t believe we did gloss over it. We were very surprised to hear that but didn’t feel it was worth spending more time on than saying wow, that’ll get some comments.. And while we could see it making sense as we don’t think someone who buys a CC level bike is then going to remove their wireless equipment to replace it with a cable actuated system, it will ultimately be up to the consumers to decide with their spending. If sales of the CC are a fraction of the C, they will likely reevaluate and adjust.
@@TheLoamWolf Fair enough, I see your reasoning here. Thank you for your response. I see the “Applefication” in mountain biking, forcing consumers into an eco system which many don’t even want have to pay the premium for. And if it all goes wrong then you get to buy some expensive parts that only sram makes.
Yeah, it’s very interesting times and you don’t have to tell us!! Drew’s first iPhone wasn’t until the 11 came out! Not big fans of proprietary or changing stuff just to gouge people and make them spend more! But yeah, as much as we don’t like that, not sure if someone who spends 8-9k on a bike and breaks a several hundred dollar derailleur is gonna “toss out” their several hundred dollar shift pods and then buy a new cable actuated derailleur AND shifter to replace it. So, I guess we kinda see there point…. But, like we said, people will either refuse to buy it because it’s a deal breaker, or….we just need to embrace the future. Hahaha. 🤷♂️
@@Sam-xs9kr i don't get it. It would be "forcing" if only CC had cable routing. But how can you call it forcing, if you have to spend less to get cable routing?
Why do they keep making chain stays longer? Stop it. I just had to ride my wife’s nomad v5 (last full 27.5 nomad) today after stripping the hub on my GG and wow I forgot how great that bike handled for being a big bike. This video had me look at the geo chart, 430 chainstay, 5mm shorter than either of my bikes, no wonder it felt so good. Let’s go shorter, not longer, we got mullets, let’s use it.
Hot take: As far as major suspension designs are concerned, ie Horst, DW, ABP, Mino, etc, VPP has always and continues to be, the worst. Santa Cruz just doesn’t blow my skirt up, never has. DW is king, Horst is Queen, VPP is the jester because it’s a joke. This doesn’t mean it’s bad, or not capable, it’s just others do it better.
Im sorry, that makes zero sense: antisquat is better, ok, which means it resists chain growth and resists bobbing during pedaling, but the suspension is still more active???? So this bike is better in every situation? pedaling, suspension, braking...
No, perhaps there was a misunderstanding. It is a softer suspension platform, while comfort and traction are better, it does have a bit more movement while pedaling. This was addressed and Garen said something to this end. It may not be as spritely or efficient for the most XC focused climber, but other improvements are noted as well. We imagine climbers who love climbing may use the switch more often.
LOVE the honesty and openness here! More brands need to do this and less of the overtly PR nonsense. Loved the open conversation about VPP and the c vs cc carbon etc. Good job gentlemen.
Thank you very much.
you should see the reviews that think the v5 is a downgrade from the v4. those are OPEN.
Very likely that uphill focused riders will not be in love. But like anything else in life, we’re all able to have our own tastes or opinions.
Just like two food critics who could have very different reviews after eating at the same restaurant.
@@TheLoamWolf the reviews I'm seeing are people don't like that it's not as fun as the previous models. no complaints about the uphill ride but more about the downhill fun factor.
One person’s fun isn’t necessarily the same as another’s. It might not be quite as agile or poppy, but it’s better through the rough stuff that we like to have fun on..
Great looking bike. Appreciate the transparency, but to be honest, saving 100g and giving up the option of a cable actuated drivetrain is crazy. Hopefully V5.1 has cable ports again. Can't wait to demo one myself
As a life long rider, i always appreciate honest true reviews from riders with real world experience.
There's been too much of a focus on pedalling performance on AM/enduro bikes over the past 5 years. It does come at the expense of DH performance to some extent. I don't get why brands pursued it so much when shocks have features like climb switches. Good to see Santa Cruz going in the right direction on this.
Damn, removing the routing for the gear cable altogether is like apple removing the headphone jack type of move.
I use AXS but i still want the option to go cable if i have to
@@lexusstefan927 Yeah I understand Specialized doing it on their Epic XC race bike… but saving 100g on a c15kg, 150mmn trail bike?! 🤷🏼♂️ 😬
@@Mockle07 specialized did it with the new stumpjumper too
@@brookscurran Did they? Haha yeah, I don’t understand that either. Madness.
Right there with you. I want to build up a frame, but I'm going to run cables, because I think a well working cable actuated drivetrain works better and faster than any transmission drivetrain I've ridden.
@danielray1558 the c frame still has normal routing
Geez, I was getting ready to buy a Bronson last week -- This looks like a big improvement and is likely going to be on my new list! Great job on the video
Great to hear!
Just get a Nomad V6.
I’m really happy to see people talking about suspension/antisquat in this way. I see lots of people judging suspension based on how much anti squat it has but they forget that more anti squat results in harsher suspension. All suspension tuning is a compromise so if you want super plush then you can’t put in heaps of anti squat.
Amen!! We felt like we’ve been talking crazy pills any time we criticize VPP bike. There is no way to tune in one thing without affecting another.
vpp with low engagement hub or o-chain sounds like the dream tho
Agree. I’ve owned quite a few SC bikes and they’ve all felt “chattery” over choppy terrain. Always was a big negative. My fav bikes had low AS but they still pedaled well because the shock tune wasn’t too soft off the top. They had at least modest LSC to give support for pedaling, not AS. I could dial the LSC to my liking but you can’t dial out the AS.
I like the bronson 3. That bike is an all around bike for me except going to rocky double diamond trails.
That’s what I still currently ride v3 bronson. Have no reason to get a new bike currently
I am confused about people in the comments. People seem to ignore that the C frame has cable routing. Or are people seriously butthurt that they have to spend less on the frame if they want cable routing? Sure, if it is a trend and cable routing won't be an option in the futurre alltogether i am with you. But to me it makes sense for the marginally lighter frame (which is pure luxury to be honest) to be focused on the luxury components. (More so as i am regularly trying to make my 5010 heavier for bikeparks and would do that on a Bronson for sure)
You cant buy a C frame, you can only purchase a CC frame. C frames are only on complete builds.
I would like to decide to buy frame only to run a cable drivetrain. But I can’t do that because only the CC frame is available.
This is forcing people up to the higher spec models with the higher profit margins.
Or buy a £/$5k build, for the frame. Let’s say £/$2.8k for the C’s frame cost. Which leaves £2.2k for the rest of the components. You couldn’t even recover 50% from selling the worthless parts. An NX groupset (£100), Fox Rhythm (£200), Shock (£200) and wheels (£100). Stem, bars, brakes, grips (£150)
£1200-£1500 down for the privilege of a cabled drivetrain
Looking forward to the long termer.. Currently trying to choose between Druid V2 or the new Bron’
A new Bullit with this suspension design, must be coming out soon…..
Is it a wish or a news?
Very interested in your longer term thoughts about VPP suspension performance and if the past harshness (on repeated square edge hits) you've experienced has been sorted out with the latest design. If it has, then will SC apply this to other models such as the Heckler SL?
Because of the motor it might be harder to lower the shock further. However I am wondering if they already maybe applied this to the Heckler SL, since it doesn't need as an efficient pedal platform? Loam Wolf, any thoughts?
How is it possible to have antisquad while coasting? The cassette isnt engaging .. therefore pedal kickback shouldnt occur right? What am i missing???
I’m currently riding a V4 with a DHx2 and a cascade link. I’m curious if the new stock V5 is comparable.
Also, is there room for a coil on the V5?
I always appreciate your reviews they’re spot on! Thanks
Nearly the same geo as the outgoing nomad. 150 travel with a 57.5 shock… new nomad might just be increased stroke/fork a la Scor lt/st 🧐
How does VPP compare to Yeti’s infinity switch
Shoot. I just bought a 24’ bronson 4.1 a few weeks ago. My bike is already outdated? 😂😂
Amazing Video as always! Now I have to decide if I should get the Stumpy 15 pro or the new Bronson in the XO AXS RSV setup. What do you think are the pros and cons?
I got the Stumpy 15 Expert and I’ve been loving it so far. Really capable bike. It really does feel like you’re riding a 170mm bike but still playful like a short travel bike. I haven’t played with the volume spacers or any of the geo adjust yet, just enjoying the stock setup for now. Fantastic. The Bronson looks awesome too so win-win either way.
@@The.JZA. cheers! Thanks a lot for your feedback! That’s what I thought as well. Either way, I can’t go wrong. Since I am from Munich and there is no Santa Cruz store but a Specialized store I am tempted to get the Stumpy.
Do you think I can take the stumpy for some Bile Park laps? Mostly Flow trails and jumps with landing.
@@pauk9638 Yeah man it would be all good for bike park laps but if you are planning on going there regularly then I’d recommend an enduro bike. The Stumpy will do it just fine though.
If you have to ask, the stumpy is the bike for you.
@@jlh530i1 What do you men with that?
I will have to buy a new tray style bike rack when I get a new bike because bikes keep getting longer and longer. Doesn't anyone ride tight, twisty, and technical trails anymore?
Can I finally buy a Bronson with a fox shock and a fox fork? This is what was keeping me from getting the v4.
Not judging but why would that bother you, if the ride is really good?
@@Mockle07Where I live, FOX can be serviced locally at a few locations but Rock Shox needs to be sent up north.
@@The.JZA. Well, that makes perfect sense then 👍🏻
I have heard people just not wanting different brands on their bikes and it has never made sense to me - service availability does though.
Imagine not buying a 8k bike over a $300 shock 😅
@@michaelmicallef668Yes an extremely expensive bike should come with everything you need/want. I’m not gonna shell out thousands just to shell out more when I could just buy a different bike that has what I want from the start.
Honestly it sounds like VPP now rides like a Horst link bike.
Why did they reduce the shocks stroke?
The cut out in the frame looks not so great.
Some things are hard to understand, if no EDR racer uses Mullet bike or maybe just a few uses Mullet why do a 160/150mm travel Enduro bike with Mullet? Doesn't make sense, also fitting these super strong brake in this light trail bike...
Are you calling this a enduro or a trail bike? Not sure what EDR has to do with this bike.
Super strobg brakes have always their place. And only a small percentage of enduro bike users have the intention to race. So run what you like and what‘s the most fun for you..
If you live in the Alps, you'll be very happy to have real brakes on a bike at this incredible price. And you don't have to be a racing rider to dislike XT /code and other light brakes.
Still made in Taiwan?
Any news on a Bullit refresh?
Wth is going on with that rear brake hose routing? 😖
did you ride a L or XL size?
I rode a size large.
I love Santa Cruz and I’ve always wanted to buy one of their bikes, but how am I supposed to pay for it? They are so expensive and the build kit has absolutely no value for the money. To me it’s just sad to see, because I actually think they make the best bikes out there.
If I heard correct… Did you just completely gloss over the fact that the CC has no gear shift routing? This bs needs to be called out, the most ridiculous new trend from bike brands. Yeah we saved 100 grams, well the build kit is 15kg+ anyway, who gives a fuck!
Don’t believe we did gloss over it. We were very surprised to hear that but didn’t feel it was worth spending more time on than saying wow, that’ll get some comments..
And while we could see it making sense as we don’t think someone who buys a CC level bike is then going to remove their wireless equipment to replace it with a cable actuated system, it will ultimately be up to the consumers to decide with their spending.
If sales of the CC are a fraction of the C, they will likely reevaluate and adjust.
@@TheLoamWolf Fair enough, I see your reasoning here. Thank you for your response. I see the “Applefication” in mountain biking, forcing consumers into an eco system which many don’t even want have to pay the premium for. And if it all goes wrong then you get to buy some expensive parts that only sram makes.
Yeah, it’s very interesting times and you don’t have to tell us!! Drew’s first iPhone wasn’t until the 11 came out! Not big fans of proprietary or changing stuff just to gouge people and make them spend more!
But yeah, as much as we don’t like that, not sure if someone who spends 8-9k on a bike and breaks a several hundred dollar derailleur is gonna “toss out” their several hundred dollar shift pods and then buy a new cable actuated derailleur AND shifter to replace it. So, I guess we kinda see there point…. But, like we said, people will either refuse to buy it because it’s a deal breaker, or….we just need to embrace the future. Hahaha. 🤷♂️
Also even with the 100 gram savings the bike is still 2 pounds heavier
@@Sam-xs9kr i don't get it. It would be "forcing" if only CC had cable routing. But how can you call it forcing, if you have to spend less to get cable routing?
No internal gear cable routing - I'm out. Very disappointing.
Removing features (cable routing) and charging more.... that's some Apple shit
It’s not a trek or specialized so LW hates it.
Did you even watch the video?
Why do they keep making chain stays longer? Stop it. I just had to ride my wife’s nomad v5 (last full 27.5 nomad) today after stripping the hub on my GG and wow I forgot how great that bike handled for being a big bike. This video had me look at the geo chart, 430 chainstay, 5mm shorter than either of my bikes, no wonder it felt so good. Let’s go shorter, not longer, we got mullets, let’s use it.
Hot take: As far as major suspension designs are concerned, ie Horst, DW, ABP, Mino, etc, VPP has always and continues to be, the worst. Santa Cruz just doesn’t blow my skirt up, never has. DW is king, Horst is Queen, VPP is the jester because it’s a joke.
This doesn’t mean it’s bad, or not capable, it’s just others do it better.
And the new VPP is....
Im sorry, that makes zero sense: antisquat is better, ok, which means it resists chain growth and resists bobbing during pedaling, but the suspension is still more active????
So this bike is better in every situation? pedaling, suspension, braking...
No, perhaps there was a misunderstanding. It is a softer suspension platform, while comfort and traction are better, it does have a bit more movement while pedaling. This was addressed and Garen said something to this end. It may not be as spritely or efficient for the most XC focused climber, but other improvements are noted as well. We imagine climbers who love climbing may use the switch more often.
CC version if you go AXS... Makes Cents.