Justin Bass & Dale Allison: Is there evidence for the bodily resurrection of Jesus?
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- Опубліковано 8 лип 2024
- New Testament scholars Dale Allison and Justin Bass discuss their different approaches to the evidence for Jesus' resurrection.
Bass, author of 'The Bedrock of Christianity: The unalterable facts of Jesus' death and resurrection' says the evidence from the core historical facts points to a resurrection. Allison, author of 'The Resurrection of Jesus: Apologetics, Criticism, History' is less certain that these facts lead us to a bodily resurrection.
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Dale Allison asks the kind and quality of questions that fewer evangelicals/conservatives seem willing to ask. His graceful and rigorously ruthless inquiries as to the variegated exegetical complexities regarding the resurrection (in his most recent book) are astounding. My sense is that he is radically committed to 'following the facts wherever they may go' (though "facts" do require semantic/lexical/contextual unpacking!). His personal experiences of/with the 'Wholly Other' also factor into his substantial ruminative strength and exegetical mining. I'm very thankful for his most recent book (available in Kindle format, too) and for his humble-yet-thorough approach throughout this highly informed volume.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
@@Gamefan86 nahhhhh... not convincing in the least...
Thank your for bringing Dr. Dale C. Allison, Justin . I look forward to listening to this discussion with Justin Bass.
Dr. Dale C. Allison is indirectly helpful in deconstruction and God has used him to maintain my Christian faith. I am now reading his book.
I do also have these conflicting voices like Dr. Allison.
YO you read Tozer brother? Aiden Wilson Tozers a must read
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
@@Gamefan86 This bullshit only makes sense in modern English, a language that didn't even exist prior to the 15th century.
Jesus lived in the first century and spoke Aramaic.
@@Gamefan86 Again with the copy paste. LMAO! 😂
@@TheChampFighter he stated facts regardless of copy n paste dork. Stay mad
I've watched a lot of episodes of Unbelievable. Despite generally doing a decent job of moderating discussions even handedly, my strong impression is that Justin is far less likely to cut short a traditional/conservative Christian guest who wants to answer at length, than he is to cut short a more skeptical gurst. It's usually subtle and I'm not even sure he's conscious of it. But I often come away wishing there was a running tally of how much mic time each guest was actually given and strongly suspecting the X'ian received greater opportunity to build, expound and elaborate upon their points than did the skeptical or less conservative guest. Nevertheless, I appreciate the format and the willingness to hold these discussions.
You'd be wrong.
Sometimes he be saving them I noticed 🤭he’ll catch them and try to sim them in a different direction cause he knows they about to get chewed up 😅
I’m an agnostic and enjoyed this conversation. We need more civilized discussions like this 👍
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
@@Gamefan86 your full of myth!
@@Gamefan86 Can you give a pre-Christian source for this information?
Civility is overrated. Lets not forget what christians did when they thought they had power.. bloodshed and unnecessary suffering and ignorance for thousands of years.. retarding human progress
@@zackwing2967 you clearly have access to the internet.. look it up. The fact that youre incapable of doing anything on your own and need a parent to walk you through everything is why religion is so toxic to human brains.
I'm an atheist, and I really respect Mr. Allison's intellectual honesty!
Agreed
He's the master at weighing evidence and admitting how much bias plays into one's beliefs regarding the veracity of Christian claims
Same
Is Justin Bass not also being intellectually honest in coming to the conclusion that Jesus was physically resurrected from the dead? As he said the alternatives are not viable.
@@PC-vg8vn I think defending the Bible at all costs probably indicate you're not the most intellectually honest person on earth. I think his faith guides his interpretations.
Conversations like this between different personalities with different methodologies and rationale on such a high stakes topic is rare
Allison seems to believe that 'something' happened, but he doesnt seem to want to say what he thinks happened. But he doesnt seem to believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus, as elsewhere he has implied that the body may have been stolen which is why he has to resort to 'visions'.
The Gospels and the rest of the NT are clear - Jesus was physically resurrected from the dead, leaving the tomb empty.
As a historian, he doesn’t treat those texts as inerrant.
@@CB-fb5mi He's a NT scholar, not a historian per se. Inerrancy is irrelevant, the question is does the text relay the truth of what happened. I would suggest it does.
@@PC-vg8vn he would suggest that it does sometimes and but dosent other times. As you would expect from any ancient biography
@@PC-vg8vn On what grounds do you say the "text relays the truth of what happened"? I'm a Christian, but this appears to be fideism, not historical analysis.
Also, Allison doesn't "impl[y]" that the body may have been stolen. He was attempting to put himself in the shoes of a sceptic. Try and listen.
Very enjoyable and encouraging discussion for me to watch.
I enjoyed this discussion. This is my second listen. One note about how early Paul's creed was. It mentioned 500 who witnessed the resurrection - some of whom are still alive. Why note that some are still alive if it was written 6 months after the death of Jesus. It seems to me that this statement implies more than just a few years have passed after the event.
I really admire Allison's sincerity and effort to be honest.
Great discussion. loved this. I love it when Christians explore more difficult questions. i will have to read both Justin Bass and Dale C. Allison's book. I tend to read atheist and Christian books along each other but this would be two Christians who may have a few different perspectives.
I love Dr. Allison's view that people have lens and his example of Skeptic lens. That people can look at the same evidence and come to different of conclusions.
And where is this evidence coming from? I would have to question anything that conflicts with the word of Yehovah (the name of God). The word being the Bible.
I've looked at atheist questions for the last 30 years and realised that basically, they ignore the text as it is written and received. Christians don't generally have difficult questions, the text is often easily understood. Everyone knows all the text says Jesus died and was raised from the dead three days later, then ascended to Heaven.
@Watch Man In Greek, 'risen messiah' can also mean "messianic uprising," as Hugh Schonfield famously pointed-out, long ago. This is the predicate of John Dominic Crossan's theory on the resurrection, that Christianity was a type of para-military uprising against Rome.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
@@Gamefan86 Bruh... 😂🤦♂️
I'm very surprised they didn't bring up Paul's statement that "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom". Or that Jesus was raised as "a spirit". This directly denies a flesh-and-blood resurrection.
Probably because being raised as a spirit is a wholly unfalsifiable claim, so what's the point in making it?
Thanks Justin, Dale and Justin!
When a bedrock fact is just a reported "claim" you know you're skating on thin ice. I respect that Allison has the experience to embrace that and hope that Bass might earn the same wisdom some day. Apologists have nothing useful to say.
Dr. Allison 🔥 I can watch him talking about this stuff whole day
I love Dale - - can't wait to watch this video :)
I would like to see NT Wright debate with “Cosmic skeptic “!
There’s a beautiful point to this particular debate , the Bible I believe fostered my ability to see the subtle beauty here , regardless of who can be maximal.
I just love this conversation. But to be clear, until about 2 years ago I did have a firm worldview that was grounded in physics and materialism. I didn`t have a pre-existing belief in God and the possibility for miracles. I began to study the Christian claim, and just like Justin here, it brought me to and compelled me to conclude that the physical ressurrection is the only sufficient explanation of the evidence when weighed against all others.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
@@Gamefan86 this is incredible and makes full sense. Wow. Where did you get this, or did you write it yourself based on your learnings? Who created this ideology (ie to translated sun behavior into the Christian narrative?)
It makes a lot more sense than a magical floating jew zombie with god powers, don't you think?😄
@@Gamefan86 "floating jew zombie?" Can you think of a less racist phrase?
Indeed!
This was a wonderful conversation, and I really appreciated both perspectives. I personally believe that Jesus physically rose from the dead, but I actually enjoyed Dale Allison more in this exchange. I don’t believe it’s possible to be wholly unbiased, but damn, Dale Allison is trying to get as close as possible, and I respect that more than I respect a reinforced argument for a bodily resurrection. His referencing of the contrast between Calvin and Luther’s resurrection thoughts was especially thought provoking, and I do also like NT Wright’s “trans-physical” nomenclature, as Jesus does seem to be “more” than just a body, post-resurrection. Hmm, I think I’ll have to check out his book.
I got to ask why do you believe Jesus rose from the dead but you don't believe any of the stories about Muhammad? You should compare the four accounts of the Resurrection in the gospels they literally contradict each other.
@@darkeen42I don't believe any of the stories about Muhammad because Muhammad was a false prophet:
"Paul, an apostle - not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead - and all the brothers who are with me, to the churches of Galatia: grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." - Galatians 1:1-9
Islam teaches that Jesus was not even crucified, let alone raised from the dead. The Apostle Paul says that any "good news/Gospel" such as this should be rejected and the messenger "accursed". Thus, unless Muhammad has a message which aligns with that of Paul and the Church, it should be disregarded as false.
@@joshua_wherley Jesus is just as false a prophet as Muhammad was just because this is the story you were taught at the age you also believed in Santa Claus doesn't mean it's the true story it just means it's the one your brain was hardwired from a young age you know before the age of reason. Muhammad was a real person the stories of Jesus contradict themselves and documented history. But we know Muhammad was a. Real person. Jesus is undeniably amethyst the later the gospel was written the more miraculous details are included exactly the way myth always grows
@@joshua_wherley if you actually approached the Bible critically and think before you believe it's true you'll find there's no reason at all to believe it and it has been the justification for the worst things humans have ever done. If there is a true and loving just God your Bible was written by the devil. I mean Jesus or God didn't even know what germs were and told people don't bother to wash your hands before you eat. Why did your God not know anything at all the average peasant at the time didn't know? There's a very simple answer
@@joshua_wherley lol the very first thing you said demonstrates you don't actually think this through not through men but through Jesus Jesus was a man moron
A good discussion by both speakers!
Thanks you for All your work 🤗
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
Dale trying to explain to Justin that his way of interpreting things as the one and only explanation reminds me of Plato's Allegory of the Cave.
What do you mean?
@@iantoja that was a year ago when I watched this. I can't remember why I got that impression. From what I wrote a year ago, it seems that Justin Bass demonstrated a limited imagination and settled for a preferred hypothesis for the things that he believed while ignoring more probable explanations and hypotheses. Cheers.
Miss the debates rather than the mutual backslapping. When there are two Christians of ever so slightly differing views youmay as well call the show “believable”
Actually, the bodily resurrection is kind of a really big deal to most Christians.. Its not a slight difference of views.
@@willsal7806 True. Once you've accepted the immaculate conception, virgin birth and other ascribed miracles are true, I'm sure you could waste an entire lifetime arguing about the differences in details. I just meant I miss the times when the channel didn't ostensibly just accept the truth of Christianity but debated it. Those were fun ones to watch. Seems more like a ministry these days
I completely agree that the channel seems more like a ministry these days. I do respect Brierley's moderation skills, but this channel just doesn't feel like a "conversation between Christians and sceptics" anymore. The bias is much more obvious in the short clips.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. ...
Is Dale Allison a Christian?
Shortly after 51:00, the question is asked how many other bodily resurrections are involved besides Jesus'? The answer was none. But, I never hear Matt 27:51-53 discussed, where 'many' dead Saints also arose immediately after Jesus, and appeared unto 'many' shortly afterwards! Why is this that no one ever talks about these resurrected Saints and what kinds of bodies did they have??
@ben benalu
I found an interesting article on this. The passage from The Testament of Benjamin, I had to look up (chapter 10). Just put the following in a search engine:
“The Tombs Also Were Opened…” Matthew 27 in its Jewish Context
@@rickc777 ..thank you ..
Easy to explain a tomb with just cloth in.
A tomb with just cloth in was sealed. As no one reopened the tomb to confirm a body was inside before the tomb was sealed.
I think it would be a good idea to bring Dr. Daniel Brubaker for a discussion or an interview.
He deals with the Qur'an manuscripts.
Also David Wood for an interview.
Not related to the current video, but since there was a brief talk about Islam so ...... 🙂
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
Great debate. I'm sure I'm one of many atheists that enjoy these unbelievable debates.
No ear has heard, no eye has seen. New meaning now that I heard the point of a lack of citations once you get to the resurrection.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
@@Gamefan86 yeah ok dude. And people have been dying for a fake sun-man story for centuries. Stop trying to sound like you've "cracked a code" and learn history. Jesus of Nazareth is a real historical person who started the movement of Christianity. Deal with it.
It's not news that people worshipped the sun back then, that is how most religions began. People have died for lots of made up gods, and lies. Muslims kill themselves all the time for Allah, does that make Allah real, I don't think you believe that. There is no historic record of jesus, only the fables in the bible, and no one claim to have met him in person, because he is a myth.
read that verse properly, it's about what the Lord has prepared for His people... and in the next verse it says "but YOU have seen these things"
13:08 Looking forward to Dr. Dale Allison explanation for What Happened To The Body. Because THAT is The Question.
No, that's not a question at all, because it's not valid question. Besides, it begs the question there was a body. There isn't a valid question on this whole subject, because there is no fact of an anomaly. That's why Science won't won't deal with the subject.
@@HegelsOwl
Please explain What Happened To The Body (of Jesus)?
The Christian Faith is based on The Resurrection.
@Steven Wiederholt Your question is like, "Why does Tucker Carlson have sex with children?" You have a "Fallacy of Begging the Question."
You don't need to prove Jesus' body was missing from an alleged tomb. You only need to provide good reasons for thinking this is probably true. You'll need to use some sort of methodology for this, to rule-out your biases, like maybe Probability Theory.
However, you first have to have a VALID question to explain with your argument. For this, you'll need an anomaly, which is how to be sure one's biases and agendas can be ruled-out, so that your question is one of INTRINSIC interest, valid no matter who raises the question in an factual anomaly.
I guess Allison believes that body was ressurected (he is Christian after all) he just doesnt think it can be established (solely) by historical analysis.
@@richardgamrat1944
I have RARELY bee called the brightest bulb on the tree, BUT It seems to me Jesus Actually Died and Rose From The Dead. Requires the smallest leap of faith, on my part.
How does some one get an interview with you sir, I like your program.
Colin Humphrey's book is very good and makes a strong case for the death of Jesus on Fri 3rd April Ad 33, and that he was likely born around the spring time in 5 BC.
Dale allison you are awesome! and honest
So I am interested by how Dale says that someone who is skeptical of Jesus’ resurrection must not believe in God. I am a monotheist in the tradition of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, yet I am a still a skeptic of the resurrection of Jesus in exactly the way Dale describes: I believe that Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea, was then removed from the tomb by close family or friends, and then was witnessed in “vision-like” (hallucinatory) form by former close friends and disciples. To be clear, I do not believe that these “hallucinatory” experiences were not *real* encounters with the spiritual realm. As Dale describes, the resurrected body of Jesus would have to be something transcending the physicality of flesh and blood. A spiritual body. But might that not mean a spiritual body entirely-that Jesus was a spirit? In other words, that Jesus manifested himself to disciples after his crucifixion in a spirit body, not one of flesh and blood? Antithetical to the Gospel accounts, true, but what of the Ebionites and other early followers who doubted the “Yahweh-ness” of Jesus? Could not Jesus be a physical manifestation of godliness without being YHWH itself?
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
Is very clear whatever slice you cut it, the early christians/recently converted jews were talking about a corporeal body. You will not inherit the Earth to hunt it as a ghost. Now that doesnt mean you have to have a 100% human replica of your first body, in fact is apparent it wont be, as the material itself its made may be different. But you arent gonna get chased around by ghostbusters or summoned by a Ouija.
THIS, exactly!
@@Gamefan86 very true. And there is 7 chakra concept in the entire Bible.
@@Gamefan86 source?
Whenever I watch these debates/discussions from these scholars, I always make an attempt to see what kind of books are on their bookcases, lol!
39:25 Could the "and some are alive" allude to Jesus promise to return whilst some still stand.
Great Discussion
Justin said he would not use the word "force" to say the the "evidence" for Christianity forces one to believe its doctrines. Justin said he would rather use the word "compel", and the the "evidence" of the resurrection "compels" all to believe and accept Christian dogma. Justin, "compel" is a synonym of "force".
Eh kinda. Compelling something naturally carries within the definition that you want the object of the the compelling to do something, but that it may do otherwise. While outright saying your forcing an object to do something leaves no room for said object to do otherwise. So I think his word choice is a good one here.
@@anthonypolonkay2681 my dear sir. Thanks for your thoughts. However, this is not a matter of opinion. The dictionary definition of the verb "compel" is as follows: Compel = to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly, to cause to do or occur by overwhelming pressure. As I said "force" and "compel" are synonyms. Now, if you exert a force on an object and the object behaves differently than expected, it is because there is another force or forces present acting on the same object. This is elementary physics. For example, if you drop a ball and it does not fall to the ground, the explanation is not that the ball "may do otherwise" even though gravity is compelling the ball to fall to the ground. If the ball does not fall to the ground it is because there is another force acting on the ball in opposition to the force of gravity.
I must therefore disagree with your word play. Force and compel have the exact same meaning. But don't take my word for it. Consult a dictionary. Once we get through this distraction about whether "force" and "compel" mean different things, the real substance of the matter is Justin's false implication that there is any evidence for the dogma of Christianity to begin with. What evidence does he speak of that "forces" or "compels" anyone to believe the dogma of Christianity?
Why is academic Christianity limited by history and the resurrection past?
What about the academic study of Christ alive today? We do not believe in the history alone but also right now, today, in the Holy Ghost whom Jesus said would reprove the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. Today we all witness the Holy Ghost power in action. But why are we only talking about the history? Yes the milk is glorious, but the meat…. Wow!
I confess that I was puzzled by Dr. Allison’s significantly less challenging position regarding the apparition to the 500 than the one he presented just a few months back when being interviewed by Mike Licona.
I wander if something made him be more careful on his presentations. 🤔
You are spot on! I noted the same myself but couldn't recall exactly where he had voiced much more scepticism. It certainly jarred with me.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
I noticed that too. I wonder if he changed his mind?
It will be great if you can have a conversation with Mark D. Roberts.
Please get WLC or Gary Habermas in discussion with Dale
Justin (Brierley), I enjoy your programs, but with all due respect, you never seem to get a good handle on the difference between an historian and an apologist? What is the difference between the credentials, the work, and the careers of Christian people like Allison, Dale Martin and Mark Goodacre, and Christian people like Bass, Bill Craig and Gary Habermas? Allison was very kind to (and empathetic with) Bass, though he could see that Bass was not sufficiently trained in historical methodology and is not informed by the scholarly literature. As disciplines, given that I have been both, to be an historian is far more rigorous (subject to aggressive peer-review criticism) than to be an apologist (usually supported happily by one’s peers).
Dr Allison is amazing - I’ve not even watched this yet, but I love that guy 😂
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
@@Gamefan86 I confess, I am not sure that this affirms or objects to me thinking Dr Allison is great
@@Gamefan86 I'm glad that Christ is in your head always. 👌
@@happyguy5165 Don't bother with him. He's just another atheist internet troll who does a lot of copy-pasting on Christian channels, follows conspiracy pages on social media and is clearly someone with too much free time on his/her hands.
In this world, we humans share in three types of physical body. One of them we share with minerals. We exist, we occupy a place in space and have a delimited shape. A second, we share with plants🪴. We grow in directions. A third, we share with animals. We move and reproduce. Why do some Christians find it hard to understand that Jesus rose physically from the dead, in a new human form, which transcended our usual bodily limitations of space and time.
Justin is the cooling person, and I’m attacking ANYONE who says otherwise
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
@@Gamefan86 I’m a Christian, but I’m questioning and looking at everything. I’m interested in what you say. It makes sense, but how do you know it’s true? What are some sources I could look into for this? Does this whole theory predate Christianity?
The discussion was good but neither are really giving reasons that the accounts are true . They are using the writing to prove itself. So if you are a non believer they are convincing .
As far as the theory that Jesus did not die on the cross, there is a sect of Muslims that believe he left and lived into old age in Srinagar Kashmir. There’s a tomb there that some revere as the burial place of Jesus. I wish someone would excavate it.
@Tony DC 1. Should excavate because we’d learn something about the person buried there. 2. They consider themselves Muslims. 3. Jesus died and was never resurrected.
@Tony DC Carry on with your delusions.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. ...
I find all this stuff very difficult to get my head around. It is generally agreed (written in tablets of ecclesiastical marble) the account of the Resurrection is to be believed but never (seriously) questioned. Both Lane-Craigh and Swinburne can "prove" it an actual historical event as recounted in the NT with a statistical confidence level of .97 (97%) - i.e. near certain according to Baye's Theorem (etc). And most "believers" will insist, if you don't believe in the Resurrection (pretty much in the same way we do) then (according to us) you can't be a proper Christian. I'm struggling! I'm not struggling to belief in God, I'm struggling with all the ancillary b/s.
Please explain what a "bed rock FACT" is to someone trying to think in way that makes sense from scientific point of viewl. Does the term bedrock have any value in science?
Keep open mind. We all go through gates of death first. Then who knows. Keep my mind open to all things all down individual faith.
The biggest problem is the lack of independent witnesses outside of the biblical sources. You need an independent source to verify the claims made by them.d
...uh. No. The biggest problem is that there isn't a valid question on this subject; i.e., a question generated by an anomaly, and therefore of intrinsic interest. So, there's no good reason to consider the subject at all.
@@HegelsOwl I agree!
But there are, several 🤷🏼♀️ and more early duplicated texts than there are to establish that Homer or the Illiad existed. Do you have the same doubts about Homer ?
@@delishme2 So you believe in the Greek Gods then? They play a big part in the Illiad, so they must exist.
@Tony DC First, the Quran is written centuries after the events.
Second, the Islam rejects that Jesus died on the cross.
The Quran does not deny the crucifixion of Jesus. This was an incorrect statement made by the guest. Yes the later Islamic tradition denied it but most historical-critical scholars actually think the Quran affirms the crucifixion
The stone was moved away to allow the people in, not to let Jesus out.
What’s really amazing is that this prophecy isn’t in the OT.
Do you mean the resurrection?
@@jkm9332 yes, the crucifixion, the resurrection and the 2nd coming. Nothing
We have prophecies that put words on the lips of Jesus when he died. We have prophecy that said he would be born of a virgin or young girl. We have prophecy that out of Egypt my son will be called. We have prophecy of riding on one donkey or two into Jerusalem. But do we have a prophecy that a messiah was going to come, die on the cross through pilate, resurrected on the third day, ascend into heaven and give the Holy Spirit and promised to come back to then create the kingdom of god as some of the Jews thought?
If Christians believe the death and resurrection of Jesus is according to the scriptures, where in the Old Testament did it say the messiah has to die, be resurrected, ascend to heaven and has to come back to life the second time to complete his mission?
This is the greatest biblical prophecy that was never told in the Old Testament.
@@thethinking-agnostic7130 actually according to the Jews no we don’t. Prophecy needs to be accurate not vague. How easy would it have been to pull things from an existing book and put them in a new book and claim it’s prophecy. Where is the prophecy that says Jesus, like his actual name Jesus must die in order for our sins to be forgiven and after 3 days will return and there will be a second coming?
@@thethinking-agnostic7130 exactly
One of the guests says he was "Baptizing Muslims in the Jordan River." 3:27 Why was he baptizing them? If he was baptizing them, wouldn't they be Christians and not Muslims?
6:14 anytime someone throws in the appearance to 500 I know they have zero standard for truth and evidence 💀 truly
I was there myself in airline Egypt when people flooded to its superb for few nights in a row declaring the appearance of Mary, and as joined and watched with them I could never see what the t in craziness shouting about. They were pointing a moving light , which has no resemblance to any face. It was an absolute lie.
But would they be willing to die and sacrifice their own families for a lie as the early Christians did.
In college I took a "crip" New Testament course that changed my life. We read Paul's letters in Greek to see the difference in translation. I actually "waded" (not read) - lol Raised evangelical I'd never questions anything so it was a "revelation":
1. Paul knew the disciples who knew Jesus yet Paul knew nothing of a virgin birth, baptism, miracle, parable, etc. It was an age where miracles were by far the most convincing evidence so why the silence - unless they were added decades later.
2. Paul never uses the word for physical resurrection! He used a word translated "raised" but in Greek it means "awaken, like from a dream". Paul's is the only first person account of seeing the raised Jesus but he always speaks of a glorified Jesus in a vision - not flesh and blood.
Where sre the photographs that have been substantiated a accurate?
In John 20:2 Mary Magdalene goes and tells the disciples that the body has been taken. In Matthew 28:8-10 Mary Magdalene had already seen Jesus alive on the way to tell the disciples. So why she telling them the body has been taken.
she thinks the body was stolen, until she sees the resurrected Jesus. Neat stories, no solid evidence to show they are really true thought. But if they are true, I'm all for it.
@@doctorzeno1914 You didn't read carefully. Mary Magdalene told the disciples that the body had been taken. But she had already seen Jesus *before* she reached the disciples. So why would she be telling the disciples the body has been taken, she should be saying I saw Jesus to the disciples.
@@jakegreen5081 LOL, it is you who did not read carefully. You need to finish reading in John ch. 20 AFTER verse 2, and on through until at least verses15 or 16. You are not seeing the composite picture of the whole story. BUT........ please note, I'm NOT arguing for the supposed reality of the stories. I tend to think the stories are VERY embellished, if not mostly fiction.
@@doctorzeno1914 Again your not reading what I said in Matthew 28:8-10 .
@@jakegreen5081 Sigh, YES I am. That was my point of my previous post. The story in Matthew 28, is a very condensed version. In John 20, it expands it. But, you have to read BEYOND John 20:2, in the rest of ch. 20, to get the expansion. There is no contradiction between Matthew 28 and John 20, once you understand that Matthew 28 is a condensed version, and John 20 is giving the expanded view. Again, I'm NOOOOT saying the tales are true.
Jason says he cannot see why historically Christianity triumphed in the world without the resurrection of Jesus being true. This is a very good demonstration of motivated reasoning. When one has a preconceived belief the mind is intentionally restricted to NOT see alternatives to one's favored explanation. Jason, how about the fact that Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. While the Western Roman Empire fell in 476 BCE the Eastern Roman Empire lasted until 1453 BCE. During that time Christianity spread because of the influence of the Roman Empire. And Justin, remember, the Roman roads over which the gospel was preached far and wide. So you see Justin there is a natural explanation for why Christianity became a success. No magic needed. Justin's argument is no different, despite his protestations, from Muhammadans who claim that Muhammad must have been given the Quran from god because of the success of his religion in the world.
Any physical evidence?
None
I get what Dale is saying but even before the resurrection Jesus did miracles, walked on water, transfigurated. It seems to me that his body was already special in some sense. I don't see any significant difference between Jesus body prior to death and after he returned. It also seems strange that the tomb was empty. Surely the empty tomb is irrelevant if Jesus could simply return in a spiritual like way. We also have Jesus showing his hand piercings to Thomas so as to emphasise bodily continuity.
Yes.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. ...
🤦🏻
@@Gamefan86 As a Christian myself, I concede that this elaborate explanation seems viable, but what in particular can we detect from the extent data to suggest that this was what openly acknowledged in the early church's thought? That would make this a working hypothesis is that can be factored into the claims.
Justin add about 2 hours to this show - I beg you lol.
Nah. There's nothing here of any intrinsic interest, because there's no anomaly generating a valid question, you see.
@@HegelsOwlPlease state 5 anomalys that would be intrinsic of necessitated interest ,to a time and place in history, where the nation in question(Jerusalem) was razed to the ground by another nation that ruled over them. The victor usually controls the history. All my statements are provisional and are therefore subject to correction.
@Jason Powell Pardon me, sir: You have a "Red Herring Fallacy" there with your question. Specialists in any field may investigate any question they wish, but that does not make those questions valid, free of bias and agendas. You're confusing apples with oranges.
If you think the subject of Jesus' alleged R is valid, how do you explain why sciences such as Physics and Medicine don't provide theories to explain it? How many world-class historians think it's a valid question, or do they tend to side with Bart Ehrman, that the question is theologically biased, and therefore of no intrinsic interest to Historical Science?
There actually is one valid question on this subject, generated by an anomaly which, arguably, should be of interest to Science; namely, Early Christianity's centuries-long suicide cult. So far, only John Dominic Crossan has a valid theory about Jesus' alleged resurrection, because Crossan is the only one explaining this historical anomaly.
Please do!
@@jonnyw82 Knock knock. Whose there? Minerva!... Minerva ?.. Minerva WHO??... Exactly
Can you please have Gary Habermas and N.T. Wright on to discuss the resurrection.
From Earth to the 3 Heavens is 5,950 FT UP
Let's compare the ways the Resurrected Jesus is said to have been experienced according to the documents arranged in chronological order. As you're reading, ask yourself is this data more expected under the hypothesis of reliable eyewitness testimony vs the hypothesis of an evolving legend. The scholarly consensus dates the documents as follows:
- Paul c. 50 CE - is the only firsthand report. He says the Risen Jesus "appeared" ὤφθη (1 Cor 15:5-8) and was experienced through "visions" and "revelations" - 2 Cor 12:1. The appearance to Paul was a vision/revelation *from heaven* - Gal. 1:12-16, Acts 26:19 (not a physical encounter with a revived corpse) and he makes no distinction between what he "saw" and what the others "saw" in 1 Cor 15:5-8 nor does he mention an intervening ascension between the appearances. This shows that early Christians accepted claims of "visions" (experiences that don't necessarily have anything to do with reality) as "Resurrection appearances." Paul nowhere gives any evidence of the Risen Christ being experienced in a more "physical" way which means you have to necessarily read in the *assumption* that the appearances were physical, from a later source that Paul nowhere corroborates. What Paul says in Phillipians 2:8-9, Rom. 8:34, and the sequential tradition preserved in Eph. 1:20 is consistent with the belief that Jesus went straight to heaven after the resurrection leaving no room for any physical earthly appearances. If this was the earliest belief then it follows that *all* of the "appearances" were believed to have been of the Exalted Christ in heaven and not physical earthly interactions with a revived corpse. He had a chance to mention the empty tomb in 1 Cor 15 when it would have greatly helped his argument but doesn't. Paul's order of appearances: Peter, the twelve, the 500, James, all the apostles, Paul. No location is mentioned.
- Mark c. 70 CE - introduces the empty tomb but has no appearance report. Predicts Jesus will be "seen" in Galilee. The original ends at 16:8 where the women leave and tell no one. Mark's order of appearances: Not applicable.
- Matthew c. 80 CE - has the women tell the disciples, contradicting Mark's ending, has some women grab Jesus' feet, then has an appearance in Galilee which "some doubt" - Mt. 28:17. Matthew also adds a descending angel, great earthquake, and a zombie apocalypse to spice things up. If these things actually happened then it's hard to believe the other gospel authors left them out, let alone any other contemporary source from the time period. Matthew's order of appearances: Two women, eleven disciples. The appearance to the women takes place near the tomb in Jerusalem while the appearance to the disciples happens on a mountain in Galilee.
- Luke 85-95 CE - has the women immediately tell the disciples, contradicting Mark. Jesus appears in Jerusalem, not Galilee, contradicting Matthew's depiction and Mark's prediction. He appears to two people on the Emmaus Road who don't recognize him at first. Jesus then vanishes and suddenly appears to the disciples. This time Jesus is "not a spirit" but a "flesh and bone" body that gets inspected, eats fish, then floats to heaven while all the disciples watch - conspicuously missing from all the earlier reports. Luke omits any appearance to the women. Acts 1:3 adds the otherwise unattested claim that Jesus appeared over a period of 40 days and says Jesus provided "many convincing proofs he was alive" which shows the stories were apologetically motivated. Luke's order of appearances: Two on the Emmaus Road, Peter, rest of the eleven disciples. All appearances happen in Jerusalem.
- John 90-110 CE - Jesus can now teleport through locked doors and we get the Doubting Thomas story where Jesus invites Thomas to poke him. This story has the apologetic purpose that if you just "believe without seeing" then you will be blessed. Jesus is also basically God in this gospel which represents another astonishing development. John's order of appearances: Mary Magdalene, eleven disciples, the disciples again plus Thomas, then to seven disciples. In John 20 the appearances happen in Jerusalem and in John 21 they happen near the Sea of Galilee on a fishing trip.
As you can see, these reports are inconsistent with one another and represent growth that's better explained as legendary accretion rather than actual history. If these were actual historical reports that were based on eyewitness testimony then we would expect more consistency than we actually get. None of the resurrection reports in the gospels even match Paul's appearance chronology in 1 Cor 15:5-8 and the later sources have amazing stories that are drastically different from and nowhere even mentioned in the earliest reports. The story evolves from Paul's spiritual/mystical Christ all the way up to literally touching a resurrected corpse that flies to heaven! Moreover, in Luke and John the stories have obvious apologetic motivations. So upon critically examining the evidence we can see the clear linear development that Christianity started with spiritual visionary experiences and evolved to the ever-changing physical encounters in the gospels (which are not firsthand reports).
If apologists want to claim this data is consistent with reliable eyewitness testimony then they need to provide other examples about the same event from history that grow in fantastic detail like the gospels do, yet are still regarded to be reliable historical documents. I maintain that this cannot be done. If attempted, they will immediately realize any other historical documents that grow like the gospels do will be legends.
Your dating is extremely dodgy as even the liberal scholar J A T Robinson author of the infamous HONEST TO GOD pointed out that it was perfectly plausible that all NT documents were pre-70AD. The idea that John and Acts and Hebrews and Revelation are after the destruction of the temple is laughable.
Paul saw Christ years after his ascension so it's more than a little crazy to be reading his experiences back on to the disciples.
@@stephenglasse9756 Only Paul's account is firsthand and he makes it clear it was a revelation, not a physical seeing of a person - Gal. 1:16. The verb ophthe "appeared" used in 1 Cor 15:5-8 didn't necessarily indicate the physical appearance of a person either. So I'm afraid it's _you_ who is the one reading in the later developed gospel narratives (which are not firsthand eyewitness accounts) into the earliest and only firsthand testimony we have of someone claiming to have experienced the Risen Christ. Even if you disagree with the dating, the wildly different stories in each account is enough to undermine their historical reliability since it's not what we would expect from eyewitness accounts of the same event. The data of the evolution is more expected from embellished made up stories.
@@resurrectionnerd no because 1 Corinthians 15:4 "he was buried and he was raised on the third day". Why mention burial if he wasn't physically raised? Why mention the "third *day*"? In v18 "those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished" but why? They could have just gone to heaven like the righteous dead do!
The gospel of mark is often placed in the 50s and the gospels were most certainly written by eyewitnesses eg "now there IS in Jerusalem by the sheepgate a pool in Aramaic called Bethesda which has five roofed colonades". This was destroyed in 70ad and was only found recently! Why all the Jewish argumentation eg in 8 and,9 which would hardly have been of any use to Christians late first century early second? And why no reference to the destruction of the temple??? '"Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said "it has taken 46 years to build this temple"' 2:19.
The temple clearly exists and the 46 years puts it exactly right chronologically and the author (assuming post 70AD) inexplicably doesn't seem to see any need to make capital out of the fact that the temple was destroyed. The so-called prophecies written after the events in the synoptics are so general and undetailed it's implausible they were written after. How come no one writes, "and because of their rejection of the Christ a man called Titus will burn the temple with fire and crucify thousands"? No where to be found.
@@stephenglasse9756 The burial is mentioned to show Jesus really was dead. Believing Jesus was "physically raised" doesn't mean his body was physically seen and touched by people. Paul uses the same verb for his experience as the others so without reading in the later narratives into the text, one can infer these were all appearances of the heavenly exalted Jesus and were not physical interactions with a revived corpse on the earth. I gave the *scholarly consensus* dates, meaning most Christian and non-Christian scholars 95%+ date the texts that way. You can take it up with them.
Excellent synopsis. Well done. Well done.
This guy is hurting My Brain. It's like imagining time and stuff like that.
I'm an evidentialist.
So then where is Jesus's body? Can one believe in resurrection if Jesus didn't rise from the dead? Another important fact about the resurrection of Jesus is that it is the foundation of the Gospel. So then what is the value of the Gospel if Jesus didn't rise from the dead?
The body was removed just like moses body
Jesus was resurrected in a spirit body
@@AstariahFox You believe a lie, unfortunately. But that's your belief. What can I say?
@@allanmichel1041 what lie is that I believe in?
@@AstariahFox Did you ever read this? Matthew 28:12-14
New International Version
12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.”
@@allanmichel1041 tell them that they stole the body ? But obviously it's a lie cause the body wasn't there
Did I say they removed the body? If u thought I said that then I am sorry
I meant Jehovah God removed the body just like he removed moses body
What evidence for physical resurrection? Why cant he simply be here today with us? It would save us a whole load of trouble. Christians only thrive on the understandable inability of nonbelievers to disprove the resurrection.
Well to be fair, it should be a rather easy thing to disprove.
In the time, and place where christ lived, and died, (and resurrected) it was blasphemy for a human to cal oneself god. And that culture looked down on said blasphemy so much that people wanted to see you dead for daring to call yourself God. Not only that but the Roman empire which was occupying the middle east at the time was actively suppressing anything that might lead to rebellion breaking in said territories.
So it was the worst time, and place possible to try to cook up a new religion that worships a single guy as God
So the natural conclusion is that we shouldn't know anything about christ. The environment in which it fostered has squished literally every other new cult/worship practices so quickly and effectively that we hardly know about some of them, and realistically there are many many more we don't know about due to the effectively of it. But unfortunately the logical conclusion if these parameters isn't what happened. Not only did the Jesus cult thrive in an enviornment of people who hated the very ideas of it to the point where we know about it today, but it converted enough of those same people at such a fast, and effective rate to change the majority of Rome into Christians by the middle of the second century. And it did so without the use of conquest either. So this raises the issue that the results do not match the established parameters. So something unprecedented occurred in relation to this christ that was able to convert so many jews who would have hated everything he spoke, and claimed, and so many gentiles could have never cared less
@@anthonypolonkay2681 that is a v poor/so-christian response
@@IosifStalin2 ah I see your well constructed and thoroughly evidenced retort disproves everything j just proposed.
@@anthonypolonkay2681 thats how easy it is to debunk nonsense....Next, to debunk Joseph Smith, then Orsho
Hell no.
This seems to bolster the doctrine that faith - the “ability” to accept the resurrection & its implications - is a gift of grace. Also, that not all have the capacity for faith, or moving into it, whatever the reason (purity of heart? openness to dissatisfaction with the world? lack of self-assuredness before life’s mystery?). It’s also a doctrine for most that humans are not static in these or any stance toward God & life.
It must be a wonderful feeling to believe that a god specially chose you to be a recipient of this gift. However, this sounds exactly like the kind of thing a condescending Catholic priest would say to his alter boys in order to guilt them into repressing their doubts.
@@onionbelly_ It’s not that, of course.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. ...
@@traceyedson9652 Sure, sure, totally not condescending at all.
@@onionbelly_ "You wouldnt get it" -Christian gift-of-grace nerds xD
What needs To be explained is why jesus would have a special treatment to be buried in tomb rather than be dropped in a ditch like all other crucified people.
Mark 15:43 notes his (Joseph of Arimathaea) motive for this action as “waiting expectantly for the kingdom of God.” Joseph wished to prevent the body from hanging on the cross overnight and to secure for it an honourable burial, thereby offending Jewish law, which allowed only a disgraceful burial to the executed.
Do you guys write about those zombie that came out from the tomb and what became of them , what became of the step father poor Joseph have a spirit shagging his wife
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. ...
The “bedrock facts” described here such as the appearance to the 500 is not even close to a bedrock fact, but is actually just a claim. A claim recorded nowhere in the 4 gospels. Big difference between a claim and evidence. Where did this appearance take place, who was there, what was said by Jesus, how did these 500 even know it was Jesus. This is just a part of the established creed, as Paul writes it. This might work for believing Christians, and I guess that what apologetics is for.
Since I’ve read Bart, Wright, & Licona (among many others); but because I’m a trained historian with interests in prehistory, science, evolutionary psychology, politics, religion, and philosophy; I line up more with Dale!
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. ...
Yeah, I guess that makes your opinion valid lol.
@@Gamefan86 you keep repeating Carl Jung Ion talking points. Even Jung said the best thing you can do for yourself is become a Catholic.
FFS, any other explanations are infinitely more likely than the physical resurrection of a dead man.
06.10 appearances to the 12 minus Judas ?????
no, what I read, Jesus appeared to 12
With regard to contradictions in the Bible Bart Ehrman has presented on various occasions the case of Judas Iscariot. He considers the two different accounts, in Matthew 27 and in Acts 1 as incompatible. He is right I suppose, but he overlooks something important. I have responded in different ways, but there is some confusion. To clarify, I want to evaluate my thoughts and rewrite my comment in a more subtle way.
The two accounts indeed seem very weird, it is plausible to reject them as incompatible. So there must be something else going on rather than a hanging or another accident in which Judas burst open and his guts came out. To argue that Judas did not strangle himself, but is still alive when Jesus appeared to the twelve disciples, I would like to mention eight points.
This is also an attempt to rehabilitate Juda(s), the Jew.
1
John 20:24 says: now Thomas one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.
Jesus appeared to twelve disciples, so including Judas, since he is only replaced after the Ascension. There is a problem with the grammar when you take 'the twelve' as a technical term. Please read carefully, the pronomen personel 'them' refers directly to ‘the twelve.’ The pronoun cannot refer to a situation in the past.
2
1 Corinthians 15:5 says: …and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
When Paul writes about the appearance of Jesus, he writes about the situation before the Ascension, so before the replacement of Judas by Matthias which happened after the Ascension. And then there were twelve disciples, Judas including. So it's not the question that Judas is replaced, but that he didn't hang himself.
3
The translation ’hanged himself’ is reasonable but disputable.
The Greek απάγχω, composition of από and άγχω means literally squeeze (esp. the throat), strangle, throttle and is also used in derivative or metaphorical meanings as choked with anger, of pressing creditors, of a guilty conscience etc.
In Matthew 27:5 απήγξατο appears as 3rd sg. Aoristus Medium and can therefore be translated as strangled or hanged himself. But as I said, a derivative meaning is obvious and more plausible. Therefore I propose the following translation: And hurling the pieces of silver in the sanctuary he left; and after he went off, he got very scared.
Interestingly, the Dutch Statenvertaling, which is considered one of the most accurate translations in existence, translates with 'verworgde zichzelf.' It places the reflexive pronoun 'zichzelf' in italics, meaning that this word is not in the text, but has been added as a clarification. This is a textbook example of precise translation. In fact, it then says that his throat was constricted. So it doesn't say that he squeezes his throat himself. A derivative or metaphorical meaning is more likely in that case. The only English translation I know that lists the reflexive pronoun in italics is the Disciples' Literal New Testament (DLNT): And having thrown the silver-coins into the temple, he departed. And having gone away, he hanged himself.
So again, this translation is not that literal as to get rid of the hanging.
4
After the Ascension the disciples assembled again to replace Judas. I consider the translation of Acts 1:18 to be very disputable.
Only if we assume that Judas has hanged himself and felt, the translation is conceivable.
First I would like to mention the passage in the King James Bible: Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the middle, and all his bowels gushed out.
Let ‘s focus on the second part of verse 18: καί πρηνής γενόμενος έλάκησεν μέσος καί έξεχύθη πάντα τά σπλάχνα αύτού
The word translated as headlong, πρηνής can mean: with the head foremost, but the first meaning of πρηνής (nom. sg.) is: with the face downwards, bended or lying on ones stomach. By the way, the word 'prone' is still used in English in the meaning of 'prone position.' It means: to lie on the stomach. Derived meanings are: susceptible, amenable, receptive, open minded, open for suggestions and even vulnerable.
Nota bene: the word falling is not in the Greek text, γενόμενος (nom. sg. part. Aoristus of the verb γίγνομαι) means: come into being, take place.
People have in their mind, Judas has hanged, so he has to fall. That is what we call prejudice. If we look at the text with an open mind, we will translate differently. I propose: (being) with his face turned to the ground; or shortly: stooped or knelt.
To support my argument I mention the way in which the Vulgate reconciled the two reports. The Vulgate translates Acts 1:18 as following: …et hic quidem possedit agrum de mercede iniquitatis et suspensus crepuit medius et diffusa sunt omnia viscera eius (…. he hanged, burst in the midst and his viscera gushed out). The Wycliffe Bible remains the same. But these translations are plainly wrong. Does the Roman church want Judas to hang?
Subsequent (protestant) translations, as the King James Version, changed the text in the falling headlong.
The word translated as burst, έλακησεν (3rd. sg. Aoristus of the verb λάσκω, λακάω or ληκέω) means: ring, rattle, crack or burst (especially of things) and scream, shout or cry aloud (especially of animals or human beings). (1)
That his bowels gushed out is a way of saying, to express a deep sort of compassion or affection. In Hebrew it is referred to as rechamim. In particular it is used to mention God's mercy. The Dutch language has a great word for it, namely: barmhartigheid.
Σπλάχνα is been used at several places in the New Testament: 1 John 3:17; 2 Cor. 6:12, 7:15; Col. 3:12; Philemon: 7, 12, 20; Philippians 1:8, 2:1, Luke 1:78. To mention only Luke: Through the tender mercy of our God, whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us. If it is metaphorically translated in those places, it is likely to do this here as well.
To conclude, I suggest the following translation: Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity, when he knelt down, he screamed with great compassion.
5
Acts 1:25 reads: to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.
The current opinion is that the death of Judas is mentioned here, but that can be disputed, again based on the Greek text. Let alone that his own place can be understood as one’s death.
The text says: είς τόν τόπον τόν ίδιον. It does not say: τόπον του άυτου, his (own) place, but τόπον τόν ίδιον, his own private place, in the sense of one’s own particular property.
How can it be if Judas is dead, he turned aside and went to his own property?
(see point 8)
6
In many translations of the Bible Judas is mentioned as a traitor. This is generally disputed by scholars. The Greek term which is used throughout the gospels, παραδιδωμι can better be described as: to hand over or deliver. More than thirty times this term is mentioned, without exception. For betrayed or traitor, the Greek has one specifically different word.
Here we touch a deeper level of meaning in the gospels. What happens is that Judas hands Jesus over to the Romans, actually to overcome the Romans, that is to save them, not to destroy them. Jacob holds Esau, not to destroy him but to release him. In fact, the messiah is supposed to save his people from their enemies. (Luke 1:71) Obviously the enemy (the evil) in the gospels is Rome. So Israel delivers the best she has (her messiah) to enemy Rome. Nietzsche calls this act the hatred of the Jews, which is a spiritual revenge, but at the same time deepest love (Genealogie der Moral 7 and 8).
The way Judas is considered as a betrayer and thief who desperately commits suicide is telling about the willingness of the Christian church to consider and understand the person of Judas, as the model and personification as the Jew in general. In comparison with Petrus, who denied and therefore, I would say, ‘betrayed’ Jesus; Judas is seen as the bad bloke referred to hell, Peter however became the first bishop of the Roman church.
An obvious example of such a questionable mindset is Papias (2e century). He wrote: ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬‘’Judas was a terrible, walking example of ungodliness in this world, his flesh so bloated that he was not able to pass through a place where a wagon passes easily, not even his bloated head by itself. For his eyelids, they say, were so swollen that he could not see the light at all, and his eyes could not be seen, even by a doctor using an optical instrument, so far had they sunk below the outer surface. His genitals appeared more loathsome and larger than anyone else's, and when he relieved himself there passed through it pus and worms from every part of his body, much to his shame. After much agony and punishment, they say, he finally died in his own place, and because of the stench the area is deserted and uninhabitable even now; in fact, to this day one cannot pass that place without holding one's nose, so great was the discharge from his body, and so far did it spread over the ground."
Another pregnant example is a sermon of John McArthur (21e century) who knows oddly enough everything about de eternal destiny of the disciples in particular Judas. The sermon is called: A Tale of Two Sorrows. This caricature of Judas can be heard throughout the ages in sermons in all kind of churches. Between Papias and McArthur during Medieval and modern times Judas is depicted in all kind of stories and paintings as the Jew carrying the money bag. A revealing study in this respect is Judas of the British historian Peter Standford.
7
Concerning the thief and the money box, I would like to make the following observation.
In John 12:6 the ISV reads: He said this, not because he cared about the destitute, but because he was a thief. He was in charge of the moneybag and would steal what was put into it.
All modern translations read the same way, including the KJV21. These translations are highly suggestive and I would say plainly wrong.
The KJV and the YLT are the most accurate: And he said this, not because he was caring for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and what things were put in he was carrying. The Dutch Statenvertaling reads in a similar way.
All translations agree that Judas was a thief. However the initial meaning of κλέπτης is someone who acted in a hidden way. Another weird thing is the use of the word γλωσσόκομον, derived from γλωσσα and κομέο, tongues and caring. The usual term for purse or money bag is βαλλαντιον (2). Gloossokomon means something as the case in which the tongues of flutes are stored.
I suggest the following translation: He said this, not because he cared for the poor, but he acted in secret, and having the box, he carried what was thrown into (it).
8
Finally, I would like to mention a remarkable statement of Jesus that supports my position, namely Matthew 19:28. Jesus told them: I tell all of you with certainty, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the renewed creation, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, governing the twelve tribes of Israel.
He says this to his disciples, in which Judas will have been present. He speaks explicitly of twelve thrones and twelve tribes, also emphasizing that the twelve disciples embody the twelve tribes of Israel.
According to Acts 1:25 that I mentioned earlier, Judas occupies a unique place during world history: the redemption of the world (cosmos) depends on Juda(s) being separate. This is actually what we can observe throughout the Bible and through the entire history of the world.
I don"t get it, 1 Timothy 6-16 "he alone is IMMORTAL" for Jesus to resurrection to happen first he has to die
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.
@@Gamefan86 Oh ok the SUN not the SON thanks for that
There are many other resurrections in the Bible; many who were seen in Jerusalem according to Matthew 27 52-3
@@russellmiles7247 yeah but other resurrections do not apply the same way they where not man gods, Jesus (please be upon him) was suppose to be equal to thre father 1 Timithy 6-16 who alone has immortality, who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or is able to see. To him be honor and power forever!
@@sparkytech8787 well, yes, Jesus is God ... so was never dead ... the others were dead and rose again, some seem to have become immortal according to the Gospel of John. This is all kinda fantastic. It is not as if there is any evidence of anyone at any time having been resurrected. Whereas folk have personal encounters with God all the time ... Jesus didn't die.
Dale is too polite in refuting Justin's last argument, which is frankly really poor and barely even logical. The fact that Christianity grew is evidence that it's true? No, of course it's not. It just shows that it was successful, which is not hard to understand at all considering it has always been exclusive and evangelistic, unlike the other major religions of the Roman Empire.
500? Never trust round numbers?
IF Jesus did supernaturally translate from death to life in a heavenly realm, we have LOUSY "evidence" for it. We have STORIES, by ONLY a few of the cultists, DECADES LATER, from OUTSIDE OF the land where it supposedly happened, AND in culture where tales of magical heavenly beings were the norm
With respect, it' wasn't decades later that stories of the ressurection of were proclaimed.the early Christians were very quickly convinced that jesus had risen from the dead . Evidence for that is found in early Christian creeds along time before the gospel of John was written. I do agree that Christians must not shy away from difficult questions Paul the apostle refuted those who denied that jesus was the Messiah he reasoned from the scriptures faith and reason are not at odds with each other . in fact we are to give a reason for the hope that is with in us, kind regards Anthony
@@athonyhiggins3117 the earliest christian WRITING, is 2 DECADES AFTER the supposed resurrection. Anything about the supposed resurrection before that is SPECULATION. But.... even if the creedal material actually did go back earlier, so what? That would only show that resurrection belief was earlier, and earlier does NOT equal true
@@doctorzeno1914 that is not correct
@@doctorzeno1914 historical research, by reputable scolars Indicate that Paul wrote one Corinthians chapter15 three to seven years after the the ressurection no time for Jewish myths to develop it takes about two generations for a myth to develop,kind regards anthony
@@athonyhiggins3117 Nice LIE there buddy, but I've READ AND STUDIED the scholars. NONE of them think that Paul WROTE the Corinthians creedal material of ch. 15, three to seven years after the supposed resurrection. Some of them think the creedal material MAY have existed in oral form that early yes, but they do NOT think it was in written form at that point. But even on their claim of it existing in oral form that early, its STILL SPECULATION, and once again, even IF it did exist that early, so what ? That would ONLY prove that the BELIEF was earlier. Doesn't show one way or the other whether the claim in the belief is true or false.
Every biblical account states Jesus died and rose from the dead. The difficulty for readers is looking for a version that states the opposite, one devoid of miracles and promises to come. I've never met a critic that hasn't understood what is written down. Therefore, the text has served its purpose for the last two thousand years.
Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Every Harry Potter story says he is a wizard, doesn't make it true.
Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Give that a shot. If you can manage, under controlled conditions, to honestly get a better than random chance result, let us know.
@@avi8r66 James 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
In that case, you'll need to read all of chapter 18 to follow the context:
Matthew 18
:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Nevertheless, the text says what it does so does Harry Potter. What does the author of Harry Potter want you to believe or know? It's not as if you've failed to understand what the author has communicated to the reader. They can't make you believe.
@@watchman2866 Suffice it to say, quoting at me from a book of what I deem to be fiction is less than convincing. You seem to think the passage I provided doesn't say you can pray and get stuff. I say otherwise. Somehow you guys always give god a pass so he isn't held to task. Well, that's just asinine, but it's your system.
@@avi8r66 What you deem to be? I wonder what makes you qualified to comment on the event scribed in the Bible? But you are welcome to supply actual documents from the time period discussed.
It was you who cited the verse from Matthew chapter 18. There's nothing wrong with you disagreeing with the context, as you'll notice I didn't actually volunteer an interpretation.
Foolishness is actually speaking arrogantly outside of your knowledge as if you know what you are talking about. It's not my system because I'm not the author.
@@watchman2866 I am not allowed to form my own opinions now about a simple thing like a book? Really? I can read, the words aren't complicated, and the stories are pretty simple and straightforward. It's all very firmly rooted in a very primitive human social framework actually. For example, what possible use would an all knowing, all powerful being have for angels. They would just make a mess of things. This concept comes from the idea of a leader having helpers, something such a being simply would have no use for. Or, it comes from the older mindset of multiple gods, and they had a hard time writing new stories without more characters to have over the humans. Either way, it's silly.
And it's not up to me to prove your stories, that's your job, and your side has failed to do so for 2,000 years. This is why I am unconvinced that these stories are true. If you and your peers had compelling evidence I would be happy to consider it, and if it was actually compelling, I would likely believe it. But such evidence is rather lacking.
The resurrected Jesus is radical Human 2.0, a new creation, a second Adam, theLogos, Yah the SON
How are missionaries still a thing, haven’t folks heard that colonialism and pushing your culture and beliefs on others isn’t a good thing?
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
I believe in allegorical interpretation of scripture, but Muslims claim that Jesus did not die on the cross because that’s what the Quran also asserts, Muslims also think that Muhammad was the vessel through which God’s perfect message was transcribed without human error.
Therefore, according to Islam;
God does not tell the truth.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
The Bible says God doesn't tell the truth
there is as much evidence for Jesus rising as there is for Santa and the Easter Bunny. All of them are mythology, but at least the bunny gives you chocolate without judgement.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
That was genius thought 👏
It's not my idea 🙂 Check out Acharya S aka D.M Murdock.
Dumb and ignorant comment.
Siily comment
Dale believes Jesus was wrong about the end of the world. It's shame they haven't talked about it.
45:25 ok, but he is thinking that God Made our body to survive this world... BUt what if he Made a world that would fit this body.
He is thinking that since God Made the world first, he didnt Made it with our bodies in mind.
Maybe he Made food tasty because he wanted to make a body with taste buds... This guy is thinking that God Made us with taste buds as an after tought because of all these tasty oranges around.
Why would he make them tasty in the first place?
He Made the Orange tasty, to be enjoyed be a creation that taste stuff.
Do You get what i'm saying?
He thinks God Made our hands because there are tree branches to grab on to.
I'm saying, the reason the tree branches we're Made grab able is because we we're gonna have hands.
What i AM saying is, Jesús could have instestines Even if there is no need to eat, because Food does not preceed instestines. Food preceeds instestines in creation order, but not necesaraly in design order.
That is evolution talk.
There's a HUGE difference between snakeoil salespeople and religious preachers....
Snakeoil is a real product
How can someone who has never existed rise to heaven. A WORD TO THE WISE. Thks.
There are many non Christian sources that mention Christ. Eg. Thallus, Tacitus, Mara Bar-Serapion, Phlegon, Pliny the Younger, Suetonius, Lucian of Samosata, Celsus and Josephus. Not to mention the reliable documents found in the NT by first century contemporaries. Happy Easter. God bless
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. ...
Your comment is absurd. Jesus did in fact exist and all the naturalistic attempts to explain away his empty tomb and post-Mortem appearances fail miserably.
In the spirit of this discussion, I will be express my bias before commenting. I am an atheist. I do not believe Jesus is God and I do not believe Jesus raised from the dead.
At first I was a little intrigued by Justin Bass because he said he wanted to find common ground and discuss the bare minimum facts. We can all agree on his first three facts, but he runs into problems discussing his fourth fact. Yes, we can all agree Christianity was successful. But we disagree on the reasons. Justin discarded his academic framework and drove right into Christian apologetics. So much so, when Dr. Allison brought up Islam, Mr. Bass brought up stereotypes.
Mr. Bass proves that the resurrection is a theological belief that cannot be proved historically. Whenever history cannot serve his purposes, he jumps to the theological. The idea that something is successful because it is true is patently false.
The ressurection of Jesus is ahistorical fact
@@athonyhiggins3117 I agree with you. The resurrection is ahistorical.
I am not religious but my mom and her brother as children in Lithuania, not long after the end of ww2, together saw an apparition of the Virgin Mary in their home one evening when home alone. They saw a woman with veil on and hands in prayer, glowing in white light, float across the wall of their home. They were so excited by what they saw but when their mom came home she told them to stop with their childish nonsense. My mom is 80 and recalls what they saw today as if it happened yesterday. The Virgin Mary apparition was a few feet away when they witnessed her float from one end of the wall and disappear as she made it to the other end of the wall. This makes me think perhaps the Bible is not just myth and a bunch of nonsense. It all sounds like crazy nonsense this Jesus and Virgin Mary stuff, but maybe not.
The Veneration of the Virgin Mary is more of a catholic thing. As a former evangelical I had the same scepticism towards those apparitions as I do towards Islamic miracles. Funny how visions align to the beholder's theology.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. ...
Very interesting discussion between well educated people. In My (uneducated) opinion the gospels are an account of events dimly remembered by people who heard it from their parents which is why most of the "historical facts,ie names of Governors,dates and so on aren't quite right. I mean if I wrote a history of the Second World War as I heard it from my parents I'd get a lot of specific facts wrong. I agree with Freke and Gandy that Jesus was the central character in a Mystery religion. At that time year 1 common era Mystery religions were proliferating,they've pretty much remained a mystery because almost no one peached on the rites they'd been through. There are clues that one element of it was to be underground for 3 days ie buried in the grave then re-emerge to life. Tarsus where Paul came from was a great epicentre of the Mystery religion in it's many forms. Paul says "behold I show you a mystery". Freke and Gandy assert that some hellenized Jews created their own Mystery religion part of which was a sacred drama in which the God figure Jesus dies and is reborn again. So turning now to my ideas it seems to me that maybe 50 years later people forgot it was a play and the next generation thought He was a real person from back then so they attempted to fill in His back story but they didnt have Google for fact checking by then. Why crucifixion was featured. It wasn't that long after the Spartacus slave rebellion and the thousands of crucified men the Romans lined along all the roads to Rome finally put the ordinary Rome citizens off this terrible punishment and it went out of use. So I think the death by crucifixion was a reflection of that horrible event that went deep into people's minds. The thing is in my opinion if Jesus can be "proved" to have been a real historical person who lived and physically died 2K years ago that makes him pretty irrelevant to me. My Jesus is the mythic figure,an archetype (sorry Sparkles),like King Arthur or Santa Claus or,lol,Elvis who have an enduring power over the human imagination. Hundreds of people saw Jesus,well,they had substances back in those days too.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. .
@Tony DC I'm not dated. Never done the dating game! Now ain't THAT funny.
@Tony DC funny you say that Tony,I must stop using the word funny,but that resonates with me. It wouldn't surprise me if my card was marked and I've been issued with my ticket out. There are circumstances in my life that fit what you said. I do trust God and I know he WILL do right but I can't accept the message like we are totally supposed to as my mind throws up the questions + as God gave me that brain I don't think HE expects me to be all pious. I do find Jesus annoying which is not good of me.
@Tony DC thank you Tony. "I will be a stumbling block to many..." The Man said that. I know God loves me,just as well since most of the people round me don't. That's a difficult issue isn't it,on the one hand it's cheap and facile to want everyone to like you but we as humans have a deep rooted pull to be acceptable and part of the group. Back when we lived in hunter gatherer groups that was probably incredibly important or you'd get eaten by a lion or a grizzly bear. On the other hand we get the idea deeply inculcated into us from infancy that it's "important" to be liked,in fact it's more important to be liked,to be popular,than to have money which is a dangerous idea. Love may trump money but you need money to service Love ie buy a house for your loved ones,travel to a romantic place with your loved one,even buy food for your family or for your local food bank or charity cafe. Sorry to be so pragmatic. Money,lol,does buy you Love
and not only the wrong kind!
@Tony DC ❤❤💕
Neither the existence nor death of jesus are evidence for the magical claims about him.
what if he died and then he was seen alive 3 days later, I am guessing that wouldnt pass either.
@@ceceroxy2227 that would be evidence for them, not for anyone else. We wouldn't be able to assume he rose from the dead because he's god just because someone claimed to see him after he was executed.
@@kylewalsh5397 OK, I am asking you if it actually happened, would it be evidence for his claims. I know your answer, but lets see what you say.
@@ceceroxy2227 seeing someone three days after you verified they were dead would be good evidence that they were dead and are now alive. It wouldn't on it's own prove he used his magic powers or is a god.
@@kylewalsh5397 Would that be something miraculous or no? Ya I guess not, probably just had some strange ability to come back from the dead after 3 days.
The beginning of the discussion was really hard to listen to and watch. Here were otherwise intelligent, adult men men reassuring each other that their magical beliefs have a firm factual and historical bases. Speculative ideas are transformed into facts. So when was the "creed" developed? Some say 10 years some say months. Oh I think it is months, and so months it is. On what basis are the estimates made? What is the evidence for months versus years? It doesn't matter just pick one. Even with Dale Allison's reservations as a historian, he still ends up rationalizing his magical beliefs. What are called facts and evidence in the mouths of these men are nothing more than claims, but in their minds claims are facts. I finished watching the discussion a few days later, and I appreciate the honesty of Dale Allison at the end. Dale trying to explain to Justin that his conclusions are not the one and the only conclusions reminded me of Plato's Allegory of the Cave. Justin is tied up in chains in the cave and he is convinced that he has the one and only explanation for the images that he sees on the wall of the cave. While Dale may share Justin's Christian beliefs, Dale has stepped a little outside of the cave away from the cave wall.
It's not so simple as you have laid out here.
The fact of the matter is Jesus of Nazareth has more writings and correlating archeological finds that agree with said writings (places locations, political/geographical knowledge, etc) than any other figure from ancient history. You are allowed to disbelieve all of them as nonsense, but to be nonbiased about it you would have to discount pretty much all other ancient history as we know it as well save for big obvious things like the Roman empire existed, and stuff like that. If you do not discount these other historical figures and events (I.E Alexander the great has no writings pertaining to him until several centuries after his death, where as Jesus of Nazareth has manuscripts, and gospels mentioning him, or his following within the same century and thats by a liberal estimation of worst case scenarios) then you are putting fourth a case of special pleading against Jesus without just cause.
And it doesn't end with that. Every other ancient figure we do have historical documentation of is someone of renoun, a king, a judge, a conquering hero of some kind. Why all of a sudden is this no name carpenter from the backwaters of Judea having more clout, and historical writings than all of these men of renoun?
Perhaps the legends about him filed people? Would be a good case if both people groups (jews, and rome) had cultures antithetical to the message of Jesus christ. To the jews, claiming to be God was blasphemy of the highest order, and you were either cast out, or killed for such things (which is the on paper reason the pharisies had Rome crucify jesus), so why suddenly is the bulk of that culture going to start believing something so antithetical to their established culture, especially when he is a no name carpenter who was crucified rather than the conquering messiah they were hoping for to free them from Rome. As for convincing Roman's. The Roman's disdained an looked down on jews, and their god, and for the story to be about a Jewish man who was the son of God, and part and parcel of his whole message was that all peoples are made in God's image, with no reason to claim inate superiority over one another, and that all peoples, are sinful and all require gods help through that Jewish God man Jesus to be made whole; that is a story that all Rome would spit at.
So since it's a story that not only neither people group of the area didn't care to hear,but would have actually hated due to their cultures, why did it blow up and become the main belief of the people of Rome in about a century, and a half, as well as maintaing a major, even majority at times, chunk of the population of Judea?
Not only that t but it strived trough that initial growth period with constant killings, and persecution of its followers. A great many People actively died defending this belief despite the previously mentioned aspects. Belife in the Jesus thing brought on a harder life, not an easier one for all the early church, and missionaries.
I go with the simplest, and most obvious explanation that the writings are probably true, and the things Jesus is said to have done, he did, it explains everything. The only explanation I ever hear in retort to this is that "the stories can't be real because miracles are impossible"
This is not an argument.
This is circular reasoning due to a precomitment to materialistic naturalism.
I have no such precomitment to materialistic naturalism, therefor I don't preemptively discount the idea that miracles can play a role in converting.
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@@anthonypolonkay2681 Could you state in one or two sentences your main objection to what I said? I will consider one of your arguments. Why do you compare Jesus to Alexander the Great? I don't think there is anyone making an argument that what is written about Alexander the Great must be believed as historical truth. History, especially ancient history, does not in anyway tell us with any certainty what happened in the past. So what was written about Alexander the Great is of no significance to me. I do not have to order my life today by what is written about Alexander the great. That goes for any other person in history. I have seen theists make this point repeatedly. I do not believe as facts everything written about Alexander the Great. Likewise, I so not believe as fact everything written in Christian sources about Jesus. Does that make sense? Can you understand this?
@@mylord9340 it makes sense. So long as your consistent. Most of the time nobody is. Godspeed
@@anthonypolonkay2681 thanks. Here is a question for you to ponder. Alexander the Great's birth was described as thus: "A lightning bolt lit up the room of his mother Olympias, striking deep into her womb, warming but not harming her. She understood what had hit her; as a religious woman, she revered the gods and goddesses of the Greek Pantheon, and she knew their signs. She had been impregnated by none other than the king of the gods and all the heavens, Zeus, who was known to signify his presence with lightning bolts. Clearly Zeus had chosen her to bring his child into the world."
Anthony, I take it that you accept that Alexander was a real person in history. Do you believe that this story about his birth is a historical fact? I will go out on a limb and say that you would reject that bit of "history". Well, it is similarly quite reasonable to accept that Jesus was a real person but reject the virgin birth and resurrection stories as myths similar to the one about Alexander the Great's miraculous conception. And so if one is going to claim that Jesus had no human father and that his body was revivified after death, you have to have very good evidence to support those claims. You and I know that nature does not work like that. Having stories written decades after the death of Jesus is not sufficient evidence to support those incredible claims. I am not debating you on this. I am only pointing out why it is reasonable to reject the claims of the Christian New Testament on the grounds of insufficient evidence.
@@mylord9340 if that story was part of a big movement that convinced the majority of the world's ruling power to abandon their previous thinking, and ways of life all withing a contemporary timespan to the life of Alexander the great, then yeah, I'd consider it to be telling a decent bit of truth. A whole empire of People don't just drop their deeply held convictions, and beliefs to then believe a completely antithetical set of beliefs on a whim. Yet that is exactly what happened in the case of Jesus. If you are trying to posit hype, and story telling as the answer, then that is insufficient.
So, what is the purpose of Christianity? In other words, the basic premise is what? Believe in Jesus (meaning the resurrection) and you will live forever as a disembodied “essence” floating in another dimension (Heaven). What does one do FOREVER? That’s a long time. After you re-unite with your dead family and friends, which would be wonderful, what do you do FOREVER?
Is there food to enjoy? Sex? Baseball? What?
And once again, the “Asian question”…… most human beings today and all throughout history were Asian (Chinese and Indian). Most never heard of Christianity and of course most in the past and today, are not Christians. Why would God’s plan be Jesus in Palestine/Israel and leave out most of the rest of humanity? Makes zero sense to me but I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer.