I love how people are starting to realize that there really is a difference between fighting with gloves and fighting without gloves. Typically, the more gear that's worn, the more it shifts from a battle of technique to a battle of weight/power. There's a reason a lot of the older martial arts have so many techniques in them, and a reason many of those techniques are not ideal in the ring. Unfortunately, most people who learn these techniques don't have the presence of mind to use them in a fight even without gloves. I really appreciate the open mindedness of this video.
Yes indeed. Old martial arts have techniques meant to be used with or against armor. Also some others are meant to be used with or against many kinds of weapons.
I think this video illustrates an important point between "mma fighters try self defence" vs. "mma fighters try a martial art." In the former, the techniques are presented that anyone can do them, which I think makes them fair game to trash on the videos and techniques. But in the latter, it (shouldn't be) isn't presented as an easy thing to do, but more as something that takes a ton of practice. Around the 4 minute mark, it seemed like you were convinced open hand sparring wasn't a good use of time. But as you realized later, that was because you and Nils approached it as an MMA fighter would. It's why I hate the X is better than Y arguments. They're different, and they shouldn't be compared directly. This is a great video, I appreciate the sit downs for analysis throughout.
martial arts have different purposes, MMA is made to work well in a cage, one on one, with a referee that will stop the match if it gets dangerous, with a lot of things banned. MMA isn't free fighting like some beginners think: off the top of my head, eye pokes, finger and wrist locks, strikes to the groin and the back of the head are prohibited, for very good reasons mind you, but they are prohibited nonetheless. This is partly why holds and locks are so good in MMA: an armbar is a pretty safe hold when you don't have to worry about protecting your balls, lol the reason TMA have "weird" techniques like open hands is because they're meant to be used anywhere, in self defense (whether or not they properly teach self defense is another matter i'll admit). It doesn't make sense to use open hands in sparring or a MMA fight because your hands will be taped and gloved, so you don't have to worry about breaking your hands. In a street fight that might not be the case however, and you only need one look at bare-handed boxing to know striking the skull with an ungloved hand is more dangerous for the puncher than for the punched. That is not to say MMA or other competitive martial arts will not prepare you for a street fight -- sparring experience is still the #1 factor, and most TMA sadly miss out on this -- but as you rightly said, you need to examine non-competitive martial arts from another angle than a competitive one, because they're made for different purposes.
Definitely! Different applications for different situations. Bagua style open palms are certainly not usually gonna drop opponents like a bare knuckle boxer but it might save you from getting a broken hand. And certainly would not make you look like the aggressor, if you were forced to defend yourself in a day and age where there are virtually cameras everywhere. In reality you are very likely to find yourself defending against criminal charges, or in a lawsuit if you savagely beat your attacker down with a closed fist. Not right but it's becoming the way of the world
Perfect example of someone who spent their career taking palm strikes to the lab. He also developed his own version of the "bone strike" or forearm strike which, when delivered, can create a huge amount of force as the "shin of the arms".
That last technique is one of the most neglected parts of footwork training: taking the opponent's center of gravity from under him with your steps. Good stuff.
Is the lack of open handed street fight knock outs due to the lack of effectiveness of open hand strikes, or the lack of experience with the move? People untrained in striking are much more likely to use a closed fist, as are people trained in boxing or Muay Thai. Either way, sparring like this is an excellent way to put it to the test in a safe and controlled manner. Also, it made me consider other aspects, such as how open hand strikes can be used to set up trapping. Even the potential eye pokes which you mentioned being worried about would be more of an advantage in self-defense.
Shrapnel82 grest point, yesterday I recorded animal style Kung Fu vs Sands sparring where the sanda guy wore protective goggles. I landed some tiger claw palmstrikes, and 2 clean snakefist strikes to his eyes. Look forward to sharing the video:)
Lack of experience = lack of effectiveness. If you spent your whole life practicing nothing but the crane kick from the karate kid against live resisting opponents, you would get pretty good at kicking fools in the face with it- but that still doesn’t make it a high percentage technique.
@@RamseyDewey well, not exactly... Uppercuts are very effective... Still there is almost no videos of uppercuts in street fights... Most punches there are either hooks, haymakers or straight punches... The thing is that most people do not have experience with uppercuts... I have a challenge for you... Ask the bagua guy to hit a wall with a palmstrike as hard as he can... Then go and try hitting it harder with a closed fist😉 Jokes aside... I did tma for years before I did boxing for a while... And i can punch with my boxing glove a knockout worthy hook to the bag with no problem... But if i had no glove and tried that with a brick wall i would break my hand...now... With a hooking palmstrike... I can strike just as hard to any surface without peoblem... And i know... I practice that way... (a friend of mine challenged me to "master" openhand strikes... So, lets see how it goes :P right now im having fun with it... Its fun to be able to slam my hand against anything and not get any major injury
Also, i forgot... Its a very common way of ending a sumo match... Tsukitaoshi is whem you knock out the other sumo wrestler with a palmstrike... Its more commom that you would think of... Just look up "sumo knockouts" its not the only way it happens, there are headbutts, big throws and other ways you can actuslly knock the shit out of the other wrestler... But tsuki taoshi is the name for when it happens with palm strikes... And even if the most common way is in the initial charge... Its not the only way it happens... Turns out that if you take every other technique away... Palmstrikes proove themself to work...
I have so many things to say about this but I won't go on a rant. I do love how you try things and give honest feedback. So many people do this just to prove their own way is right. Respect to you man
One of your best videos sir! Would love more of these videos that can give an insight into why traditional Chinese martial arts do things a certain way...
Thank you for this. It is refreshing to see someone being open to traditional martial arts rather than what seems to be a trend of just dismissing it as just dancing. The difference between your conversation with Nils at the beginning and then at the end after sparring with Linji was honest and enlightening - especially Nils's realisation of different "truths"... I also appreciated that there was no ego - just sharing and learning. Old and new working together advance the art and the understanding. Thank you Linji, Ramsey and Nils :-)
Baguazhang is all about hiding your centerline, while either getting to the opponents side or back through the Bagua equivalent of an arm drag, or crashing through the opponents centerline if they successfully defend that. It’s heavily influenced bY Shuaijiao, and pairs really nicely with Xingyiquan.
"crashing through the opponents centerline if they successfully defend that." ... Or if you have an opening. Generally, BAgua practitioners also practice Xing yi quan, to complete the linear practice and boxing.
Adam B Hsing-I is awesome. While the gyms have been closed, Pakua, Hsing-I, and Chen Tai Chi (you seem to like the Wade-Giles romanization method, which I’m partial to) have been my workout regimen, along with body weight stuff and Zhan Zhuang.
As a Xingyi Quan practicioner, I gotta say: this was really enlightening. Estoy realmente agradecido contigo Mr. Dewey, tu aproximación a las artes marciales es realmente única
I like how the first sparring match between two guys who *DON'T* know how to fight open-handed looked like "boxing but without clenching fists" and that devolved into a slap fight. When you moved on to someone who knew how to actually fight with their hands like that, you were suddenly in a whole new kind of fight and having to adjust how you handled yourselves. It was interesting to see you changing up your techniques when faced with examples of how it's meant to work.
Since I'm primarily a grappler and don't care about accidentally poking someone's eyes in a street fight, I'd probably use open-handed strikes just because my goal is to get them to raise their guard so I can shoot in and don't see the benefit in potentially breaking my hand to achieve this.
Open hand strikes on the street are not better for power or safety, but sometimes preferable for legal reasons. Say you're attacked by a teenager or an old man, with a lot of witnesses around and you can't just ignore him or otherwise avoid the conflict. You can try to grapple and immobilize him, but that can lead to unexpectedly nasty consequences if he slams his head on the sidewalk for example. But if you just block his attacks and respond with a few swift face slaps you will humiliate and discourage the opponent, while also convincing any bystander or police officer that you did all you could not to injure the moron.
So cool! I love getting to see Bagua techniques used in real sparring, and a discussion of the same concepts I used to learn in my traditional Japanese martial arts (...not that I’d actually be able to use them). SUPER COOL!
Keyboard warriors coming in in 3 , 2, 1.... joke: Nice to see you all open minded an TRYING these things out with a resisting training partner. There are to many in german we would say "Laberer" (ask Nils) out there! Keep up the work! Expecting to see more of this stuff.
I think that is one of the best video I ever saw from you. It was very entertaining and informative. Also you didn't judge the sport as bad or useless or whatever. Instead you tried it out and saw that it didn't work for you, than you sparred with someone who knows that thing very well and than you change the opinion a little bit. I think that was great also for those who always say you hate every martial arts cause reasons. Know they can watch this video and see how you approach something you are not sure about :D Great work
This is great stuff, Ramsey. Now do one on Southern Praying Mantis! In all seriousness, I really appreciate how pragmatic you are. I trained in Hung Gar in South Florida in 2001 - 2004, right as jiujitsu and MMA were really getting going. All of us TMA guys were like "Nuh-uh!" And then we'd lose a sparring match to a BJJ fellow. You get real practical real fast.
Really like the way you're exploring this. There are definite pitfalls to the improper application of strikes (all kinds). I've had the fear of hyper extending my wrist or finger before, but that gets better with practice, especially when you remember to go in almost like a relaxed spear hand strike, snapping the hand into a palm strike position at the end of the strike. To me, one of the most important yet most frequently ignored parts of a punch, or really any strike, is the wrist position. You can definitely see that Linji has trained the palm strikes a lot more and it ends up being much more effective. Also, shout out to Linji for using the traditional hand positions properly! Literally 99% of martial arts schools don't know or teach the proper reasoning behind the traditional fighting stance.
Linji really knows his stuff. I myself prefer the long range blocking and dodging than the boxer turtle up style (of course nowhere near as effective as this guys, but similar mindset)
In WC maintaining center doesn’t mean you can not maneuver around your opponent. The concept is the same that Linji was demonstrating, which is first establishing control via a bridge, then distorting your opponents structure, then attacking down the center line. It was nice to see them work through all the misconceptions about WC on their own. Yip Man did a great service to WC but the Hong Kong system of WC is not a complete system.
Totally agree with you here. I only practice WC for 17 months and I didn't get to learn a lot about footwork but I can see on the more advanced students that they have a lot of footwork in their training. As a beginner you learn to hold the center line, find your balance and know you body boundary and when you manage to do that the next level exercises build in footwork. The best example of footwork you can find in the practicing with the wooden dummy.
I trained WC for over 15 years and I can confirm that the demonstrated footwork is pretty much like we do it in our flavour of Wing Chun. The idea to go back to the center line OF THE OPPONENT is crazy to me. Why would anybody do that? ;)
@@bened22 ...yes, I mean if you have a choice between the opponent's flank/backside or his direct centerline...of cos you choose the open backside/flank. It's a no-brainer but some people choose to teach their students to blindly charge down the opponent's centerline like WW1 trench warfare, as if their opponents have no arms.
I do HK wing chun, it is a complete system that requires consistent and further training. Being decent vs. being good at mechanics like framing and sensitivity is huge. Including footwork. According to Linji, Bagua is applied by finding a bridge then seeking to strike. Wing Chun's priority is flipped - Attack by default but if there is something in the way e.g. attack or defense that's where the sensitivity skills come in. Footwork in Wing Chun is pushing off with your feet, but from what I observed in the form, Bagua footwork is like pulling with your feet.
That sparring snippet at the end is very similar to what my school teaches as a beginning, fundamental counter to a haymaker type punch. I've seen many variations of it in other martial arts training videos on YT. This Bagua version is very snappy looking and obviously works well against an even better delivered strike. I really enjoy seeing very experienced, skilled practitioners of martial arts bringing them onto the mat and pressure testing them like this.
I think open hand techniques can be used if the fighter knows what he does and has enough training to use it. For example, sometimes it is easier to use open hands to hit harder locations such as jaw instead of bare knuckles (there's a higher chance of you breaking your fist/wrist if you do so). Otherwise go for elbows.
I have a hung kuen teacher who says you should curl your fingers right back unto themselves (if that makes sense without showing). This way there should be less risk of injury to the hands. You can then hit with the botom part of the palm as hard as when you strike with a fist. The downside is loss of reach...
The advantage is that you can hit with full force without any risk of injury so... I guesd the dissadvantage is not that bad... You only have to close the distance a little bit more
Only for straight strikes. For round/hook type strikes you actually gain a bit of reach. When you throw a hook the tendency is for the arm and wrist to curve in a bit so you can get a good contact with your knuckles. For a palm strike the arm is more extended.
That's a classic Tiger Palm. I did about 3 years of Hung Gar - the Tiger stuff is generally misunderstood. It's not really about grappling or clawing or joint manipulation like in the movies. A fair amount of Tiger claw is in fact palm striking.
@@hermessanhao Interesting... I was taught tiger claw as an entire forearm tool, mostly in briges and strikes... and palm strikes mostly reserved to dragon and crane areas...
You called it open hand sparring, me and my cousins called it "slap boxing". The only thing that got hurt was your pride from being slapped in the face. Great video, loved the round table discussion at the end.
As a Kung fu nerd I can say that I've always thought that WC comes from Ba Gua, not from Shaolin. Not that it's important but I loved the the observation at about 3:10. Great video as always Mr. Ramsey 👏
I think it comes from both that and hsing i. If you look at the fushan wooden dummy and some of the forms you see a lot of ba gua stepping but the strikes and straight line work is more hsing i. Seems like the someone took the circular and linier and tried to mix them.
Wing Chun likely comes from an already established, long history of Southern boxing traditions rather than _anything_ Northern stuff. The two regions had almost no contact to speak of in terms of empty hand fighting until very late 19th century.
@@Veepee92 the origin of wing chun are not really clear. From what I have read and heard is most likely derived from white crane which is essentially a counter fighting art. I have heard that karate has been deeply influenced by white crane, expecially Goju-ryu. Its founder learned the art from Hogaonna Kanryo which trained in White Crane in fujian
@@shiyongshuomingshu We don't know what Goju-ryu influencer Higaonna learnt in China, but we know for sure that it wasn't White Crane. There is no credible evidence to support any other proposition. The history of Wing Chun is also rather unclear and the Crane influence is extremely hypothetical and AFAIK difficult to prove correct.
You're perfect for the martial arts! It's 90% mental. Join a school that focuses on technique, form and application where light sparring and weapons training happens often. This is the non-combative approach to MA training which still grants you effectiveness in self defense without the risk of head trauma or severe body damage. I think this is the best way for "non-fighters". Try it, U might b surprised how well you do. Ooss!
Every kid that grew up in the neighborhoods back in the days it was very popular to have slap boxing amongst our selves to prove our skills.Wish these young peoples of today would get out the house and experience life the way we did ,they don’t have to do it all the time but every now and then.
Glad you’re working with them gives a new perspective my respect for you is much greater now too many Tma people talk down to mma and mma people talking down to tma instead of working together great job keep working
You know why fights with framing and palm strikes turn into slap fights so easily? I'll quote Matt Easton, talking about fencing. "If you want to see really good technique, you need to pit someone skilled against someone, well, a bit shit." Trapping combos are super cool, unless they're broken. Two guys trading 30% of a combo back and forth is a lot less effective, and aesthetic.
Gentlemen...I think this is BY FAR your MOST IMPORTANT video! Thank you so much for this truly respectful and analytical approach to an age old question concerning TMA. Great job guys! Ooss
Hi Your channel actually helped me going back in shape. Since I am watching your videos I started training again, lost 18kg so far ( 2 months) Anyway, this is my very first comment on an online platform or social media but I really like your philosophy and the way you explain the world.
Those of us who come from sports fighting may have a tendency to forget what a skillset punching with the fist is. It is not just making a fist and slinging the arm, hoping for the best. Particularly under pressure, particularly for people who may never have fought with their fists before, this can cause inhibition at a time when you cannot afford to have inhibition. IMO whatever comes out comes out under duress but the reason why in SD people often encourage open hand striking is that it requires much less precision, integrates well with grabbing, scratching and pusing and slapping is something that almost all people have done before and feel capable of doing with enough accuracy.
Another great video! Do you have any other people who know other traditional martial arts that you can do another video like this? It was really cool to watch Linji use Bagua like that.
I would love to see more Linji please, give him my best. As María wrote; its sooo hard to find good, respectful and intelligent videos of TMA in fighting context. This is especially true with the internal kungfu. Linji and you have more to teach the internet/the martial art world - and this type of real dialoge is long overdue (it happens of course, but not as much as style bashing ect.) It is a quite unique situation to have a... what should we call Linji? Proficient Internal kung fu person that not only are willing to speak to what he knows and pressure test it but also trains with someone who puts out MA videos as a profession :-) More of this please :-)
I'd love to see a video sometime or an exploration on framing. I know you've done one on handtrapping already, but I don't think you've talked about framing yet!
Hey Ramsey, for your next video, is it possible to review some Goju Ryu irikumi vids? Like what are your thoughts about the techniques as well as the tactics used.
Great video ramsey! Wanted to point out that Lynji seems to be very open to takedowns. I am not sure why though. Is it his stance or posture or smth? He has that tma stick chest out and chin up in the air so it could be that affects his balance? What are your thoughts on this?
Wing Chun is often misunderstood or practiced badly, controlling the center line doesnt mean charging forward into your opponents power line. It means ensuring your center line is pointing towards his center whilst maneuvering your opponent such that his center line and power do NOT point at you. This gives an advantage. Moving to the side or rear is an example of this. Anyway great comments from all the team, Ill try to come by and visit in September!
For me, straight palm strikes are better if you turn your fingers more to the side as opposed to straight up, unless you intend to follow through with an eye gouge. Ame with palm uppercuts. As for hooks, I turn my fingers in towards my face so I can expose the palm for the hook strike. Personally, I can get more straight power with a palm over a fist. But I do get better power for hooks and uppercuts with fist over palm. But I could still cause damage if it landed. I haven't sparred like that though.
Love the "frame" clip at the end. That is a really often missed aspect of traditional Chinese arts which does not translate well in to gloved rules. Partially as it does not score points, and partial I find becuase gloves just make the execution to sloppy.
great use of trapping, circle walking, and the bridge! Linji did an awesome job being able to share his experience with you guys. And props to you to be the awesome person you are to make this happen! gloves, no gloves it should all be trained. peace!
At 3:43 I'd say women should open their hands if they have nails bc obviously punching with nails as a fashion choice is gonna hurt yourself a lot more than the other person. But if they do open their hands with nails they can use that as a weapon. Women shouldnt rely on that but anything can help in a self defense situation.
I was looking at Bagua it seems more of the foot work plays a lot on factor it's stable the movement is similar to a boxer the hands parry to get to a blind spot then attack. Also that simple block that palm strike to the shoulder, it's so simple it can unbalance the posture of the attacker very quick for a knockdown as seen or an opening. Thank you Ramsey and your friends for sharing this sparring session and also guys heal your scratch wounds before you guys do another sparring like this.
Mantis boxer here. We use open hand strikes primarily to open up the "softer targets" such as liver, solar plexus and stomach. Those strikes are fists. Balance is everything in martial arts. Open hand AND fists. Most techniques are useful in CERTAIN circumstances. Side note, our objective in my school is to get to a grappling position to affect takedowns and locks, so strikes aren't our only method. Pure striking arts might have a different approach, but I've found open hand strikes to open doors for more destructive strikes extremely effective
What technigues would you advice for a seated person. Have you experimented in elasticity and whipping strikes from a seated position with no hip or foot movement to add weight to the blow? I think of it like when you stop hit a ball on a pool table. the white stops but the force continues into the next ball.
Well done chaps for having an open minded discussion and testing a few things out in what is clearly a vast and multifaceted subject. Most refreshing 👍
I really appreciate this video and how open and honest your feedback is. Really good information. When I think of open hand strikes Bas Rutten comes to mind.
Great video. When I learned Bagua, coming from a boxing and Kenpo Karate, I had to relearn how to move and I had to learn how to understand to use palm techniques versus closed fist. Very different strategies. My Bagua teacher was an old Wing Chun player and showed me how different they were as arts even though they had similarities. Yeah lots of framing and structural control to set your opponent up. Thanks for sharing and all the hard work.
I always thought the open handed strikes in traditional arts was a way for them to spar without hurting each other and also protection from breaking the hand
Hi Ramsey I have a question. I used to went to thai box trainings and I had learned and improved a lot at fighting but I had stopped because of several reasons. It wasn't safe I and my fellow training partners got injured a lot. I stopped because I had a serious wrist injury. Now my wrist is okay but I don't sure to go back. My other problem is before and after I was training as a thai boxer I was able to build muscle and streng. In the trainig we did lots of unnasecerry fitness stufs wich made me tired but not stonger. And it had negative effect on my muscle development. I was too tired to work on that 3 times per a week. So first I would like to build muscle, flexibility (I've started doing yoga daily) also I do conditioning on my body simmilarly like you showed in your fist conditioning video. And after I'm looking like an martial artist, having the flexibility and being as resistant, then I would like to go back to learn technics. So my question is as a martial artist or at least martial artist wannabe, what should I priotise, building a body that is like one of the martial artists or learning technincs? Wich makes me a better martial artist?
(Not Ramsey but I am here to help) Obviously skill is extremely important,more important than muscles,but I fell you,muscles are needed.I am a thai boxer too,and for a period of time I felt almost invincible,my low kicks were nasty but for some reason,over time I felt weaker and fatigued and my low kicks became weak too felling like my legs were made of noodles.One think I can assure you,is just temporarily,this state I was in lasted for almost 4 months.The thing is,don't try to push yourself,make a rhythm for yourself so that you are still working but you are not pushing yourself,you can injure yourself doing that.I can relate about the mass and strenght topic,my muscles and overall power stagnated for those 4 months but I have a week of training that I feel like I am becoming strong again.In conclusion you can build your muscles by doing pylometric exercises that require punching,kicking,overall improving your skills.I am a muay matt,I am a little chubby but is quite strange that I hit even harder then when I was more thin,the secret is tehnique.Don't try to focus just on one,do both,mix them for high efficiency .
I know you were excluding kicks from your sparring, but that push technique towards the end of the video looks like a great setup for a head kick! Maybe even one to the leg to take them more off balance.
An important thing to remember is that the founder of Ba Gua and a couple of his original students had wrestling as their base, and Shuai Jiao belt-and-jacket wrestling is an integral part of the curriculum in a couple of the systems.
Some people have a marvelous amount of understanding, but can't fight for anything. My boxing coach is amazing at coaching and breaking everything down, but he isn't the greatest boxer in the world. Fighting is widely based off of personal skill and physicality. So... Yeah.
Of course. Coaching and fighting are radically different skill sets. And there are tons of examples of coaches at the highest level who either never competed in the combat sports they coached, or at the very least never fought pro. That being said, generally speaking, having personal experience with competing in the sport is usually better than having none.
At around 6 minutes when Linji was talking about touching and keeping contact but not pushing hard and the similarities to fencing and kendo blade on blade contact reminded me that German longsword also has very similar principles in “binding” and “winding” on and around your opponent’s blade. It’s really interesting seeing how so many martial arts styles end up coming up with similar solutions to the same problems despite being created by peoples living in very different parts of the world
Well, open hand sparing is a very good exercise from the perspective of guessing your opponent's next move, blocking, attacking, and so on. From a pure striking perspective not so much as Nils pointed out, but each exercise has it's purpose in developing a more complete athlete/fighter. As you can see Linji is quite intimidating with his striking pace so if you move that to closed hand sparing he could do quite some damage.
Hey Ramsey, whats your opinion on Bass Rutten's palm strikes, using the bone rather than the actual palm? He knocked people out with that punch back in Pancrase. Do you find that a valid technique or is it just down to Bass being Bass?
@@RamseyDewey I was a little unclear so im not surprised you arent sure what i meant.. I looked up Ruttens video of his palm strike technique. And i have no idea why i spelled his name with two S's before haha... ua-cam.com/video/Gm0SyEqc7ns/v-deo.html
I had this debate with a youtuber... The "open hand vs closed fist" debate... Me being a closed fist advocate, i said open hand, you have a high risk of breaking your fingers... His reply was "you can hurt your hands with your fist closed also"... Which i agreed and hammered home my final point.. "That is true but, the difference is, a closed fist will put your opponent down, much more often than open hands"
Using the heel of the palm in an open hand strike won't hurt your fingers but if done or landed incorrectly can break your wrist. I agree that a swollen nuckle is much better to deal with.
This one time I had a mock sparring session with my uncle who had about two years wing chun experience, and myself with probably about 6 months to a year of boxing. I had a very difficult time landing any punches. He was always able to block most of what I threw at him. Granted his arms are a good bit longer than mine and my boxing skills were beginner level so I am sure that had a lot to do with it, but regardless it made me think. Good video. I think it would be cool to see a video of you guys sparring, one guy open handed vs another with mma gloves.
Happy to see this kind of open inquiry, a nice exchange of light sparring and trying out a different element, inside control fighting is greatly underutilized. I think theirs much still to be understood and learnt from TMA we just need to bravely asses it under more natural conditions
Ramsey, Have you tried working boxing style punches with the palm heel? As if it was your built in boxing glove? I think that there’s a tendency to either slap or push, because that’s what you typically do with an open hand. The force equation doesn’t change. It’s still mass times acceleration. You lose about 4 inches of reach. And you may have to adapt the way that your arm is rotated in order to engage the heel of the palm is a striking surface. Jab, straight, hook, uppercut
I really liked the video. It's great you actually gave it a shot with someone who trained this kind of technique, as its use is simply too diffrent from regular boxing styles. The concept behind the open hand was pretty well explained. I personally have some experience with this question as it was important for my job. We usually trained Muay Thai and Jiu Jitsu elements for defending ourselves, but were also told to use open hand and hammerfist strikes whenever possible instead of punches. The most important reason was indeed preventing injuries to our hands. The point why this might be important is your ability to use tools and weapons effectively after or mid fight. If your job could get you into a situation where you get into a fight and later still have to be ready to fight again, maybe even use a firearm efficiently, you need to protect your hands during the "minor" trouble earlier. In a streetfight this often does not apply of course since your goal should be either to run away or punch the guy and then run away and not restraining the opponent while, depending on your country's laws/company policy etc., even minimizing the damage you're causing to him and yourself of course. So I guess for anyone outside LEOs, soldiers, private security companies etc. punching is probably the way to go, but for this specific group it has its purpose nonetheless.....at least as far as i experienced it.
A bit like I was saying in the previous video. The different styles of strikes have different things they are good for, so you just have to be aware of where and how you are going to strike and what options you have. Even if you don't use open hand to knock out, as shown with Nils getting knocked down, it didn't take much force from either of them to put Nils in a position that he couldn't recover from without falling, and in a fight that can quickly be taken advantage of allowing for something like a mount then move in for a ground and pound.
My coach spared with me once and grabbed my hands to pull me into a punch (he's also been teaching some grappling with Wing Chun in it), so I asked him to show me how to do that. It completely takes people off guard when I do it, and feels so much better to do it than always throw a jab. I still need to work on my framing though.
Best video you have done yet.. on the difference . Most importantly us with roots in traditional systems . Must test them like this guy does . Loved the openess and acceptance.. I've trained bagua once . I was amazed how similar it is to functional not conceptual AIKIDO. Always trying to find the back or 45degrees . Then a perfect AIKIDO technique at the end to prove my thinking . You are now seeing why these things are done . As well as why the ring is not always the proving ground . Very impressive. Fighting art of one .. There only so many ways we can punch kick or throw someone . We have one human body . This just shows . Everything has merit as long as it is tested .
I don't see why these things couldn't work in the ring. It's just that this stuff needs to be drilled under pressure, something a lot of TMA schools don't do.
Can you also try hitting with the palm while having the fingers clenched (the same as making a fist but you open up the palm by pulling up the fingers). That eliminates the problem with injuring your fingers and gives the hand more tension. The issue with that is that a lot of angles feel awkward and I wonder what you think about that.
Man, I was in China and didn't come to train with you! Next time! About the video, we have to understand that Wing Chun has come to be an umbrella term for a generic set of principles, so it's not appropriate to categorically criticize Wing Chun as a whole, because it is very diverse. I live in Cyprus, and people from different WC lineages here, learn very different styles of fighting, yet they are all called Wing Chun. This goes to show that implementing a basic set of rules to a complex system of biomechanics such as the human body is NOT a simple task. It goes through a multiple step process that can lead to extremely different styles. Implementation and utilisation of the principles is always open to interpretation. And this happens exactly for the reason that WC in general is approached too theoretically with not much emphasis on sparring regularly and using the theory in simulations. In complex systems such as in non linear equations in Physics, the only way you get to see trends and convergence is by simulations. Not by equations and theory. In other words. Put it to the test. All the differences will converge to shape one martial art that will actually be useful, not merely promising. Anyway, what was said bout the proper time span to learn Wing Chun is wrong. During the last four years I've learned two instruments from scratch and got a Physics BSc. It was enough time to do it. But my priority was Wing Chun, for the most part. I studied Wing Chun in private lessons and trained like a maniac with every willing person I could find from any martial art, especially for sparring. I can tell you one thing. Two months is not enough if you want to actually get something useful out of your training. More like 3-4 years if you are serious with it and put it to the test regularly. With this said, I painfully agree with the Bagua practitioner telling people not to study Wing Chun. It pains me to admit it, but for most people it will just not work for DA STREETZ.
Hi Ramsey! Question for you. I’m a fairly short person which is a huge disadvanatage in a fight, I train everyday, but feel like all this training will go waste if I have to ever defend myself in a fight against an ordinary height person because of my short reach. How can I tackle these discouraging thoughts?
I've been looking forward to this since you first mentioned doing it and it doesn't disappoint. Basically you guys came to the conclusion that if you change tools you have to use the tool in a proper way. I want to point out that there is some flaw in the palm strikes not leading to knock out argument. There aren't a lot of knock outs from open hands, but there also not a lot of open hands in general. A second point is that if you are primarily a grapple you can use open hands for setting up shoots or clenches with out the risk of breaking your hand in the process. One more point, most styles that practice open hands are primarily using them with the goal of hitting the throat or breaking the nose, not specifically to achieve a knock out.
Legit question. Didn't Bas Rutten prove open hand strikes pretty much work or do you think that's because the guy is a big enough monster that it didn't matter how he hit you?
The way I see it is that they are trying to be more general. Bas used basically one palm strike - a big hook (high or low) Usually when you say palm strike, m thinking of a straight.
Ramsey a quick question about the sparring session dont you think its important to note had you been HARD sparing you could have merely blasted down the "fractured" center line with superior boxing styled forward pressure
It's too gimmicky, why should I change my reaction just because your stance is new I'm not going to allow that to throw me off my game by trying to address a new problem with a new answer I shall simply resort to the master key answer that which is pain
Different kicks for different situations. If we’re talking about round kicks, shin to the legs, body, neck, or head. Instep to the head and neck. Ball off the foot to the floating ribs (yes, you can throw a roundhouse kick with a flexed foot with the ball of the foot- it’s a higher risk/high reward technique) Kicks are super dynamic- there are so many different kicks, and so many striking points on the legs and feet: heel, ball of the foot, shin, instep, side of the ankle, three points on the knee... I even met a kungfu master who could front kick with the points on his toes, shockingly without breaking them.
@@RamseyDewey fascinating! ill definitely check out the different variations of kicks that i have been missing out on, thanks for the in depth information, have a nice day!
I love how people are starting to realize that there really is a difference between fighting with gloves and fighting without gloves. Typically, the more gear that's worn, the more it shifts from a battle of technique to a battle of weight/power. There's a reason a lot of the older martial arts have so many techniques in them, and a reason many of those techniques are not ideal in the ring. Unfortunately, most people who learn these techniques don't have the presence of mind to use them in a fight even without gloves.
I really appreciate the open mindedness of this video.
Amen to that! 🙏🏻
+1 to that.
Yeah you said a mouthful true true and true
Yes indeed.
Old martial arts have techniques meant to be used with or against armor.
Also some others are meant to be used with or against many kinds of weapons.
Great to see empirical testing of TMA based with a respectful, critical approach and an open mind. Keep up the good work!
@Tai Chi Tube As long as no one goes off and masters internal martial arts it's all good in my view.
Yeah it is called jkd
I think this video illustrates an important point between "mma fighters try self defence" vs. "mma fighters try a martial art." In the former, the techniques are presented that anyone can do them, which I think makes them fair game to trash on the videos and techniques. But in the latter, it (shouldn't be) isn't presented as an easy thing to do, but more as something that takes a ton of practice. Around the 4 minute mark, it seemed like you were convinced open hand sparring wasn't a good use of time. But as you realized later, that was because you and Nils approached it as an MMA fighter would. It's why I hate the X is better than Y arguments. They're different, and they shouldn't be compared directly.
This is a great video, I appreciate the sit downs for analysis throughout.
martial arts have different purposes, MMA is made to work well in a cage, one on one, with a referee that will stop the match if it gets dangerous, with a lot of things banned. MMA isn't free fighting like some beginners think: off the top of my head, eye pokes, finger and wrist locks, strikes to the groin and the back of the head are prohibited, for very good reasons mind you, but they are prohibited nonetheless. This is partly why holds and locks are so good in MMA: an armbar is a pretty safe hold when you don't have to worry about protecting your balls, lol
the reason TMA have "weird" techniques like open hands is because they're meant to be used anywhere, in self defense (whether or not they properly teach self defense is another matter i'll admit). It doesn't make sense to use open hands in sparring or a MMA fight because your hands will be taped and gloved, so you don't have to worry about breaking your hands. In a street fight that might not be the case however, and you only need one look at bare-handed boxing to know striking the skull with an ungloved hand is more dangerous for the puncher than for the punched.
That is not to say MMA or other competitive martial arts will not prepare you for a street fight -- sparring experience is still the #1 factor, and most TMA sadly miss out on this -- but as you rightly said, you need to examine non-competitive martial arts from another angle than a competitive one, because they're made for different purposes.
Definitely! Different applications for different situations. Bagua style open palms are certainly not usually gonna drop opponents like a bare knuckle boxer but it might save you from getting a broken hand. And certainly would not make you look like the aggressor, if you were forced to defend yourself in a day and age where there are virtually cameras everywhere. In reality you are very likely to find yourself defending against criminal charges, or in a lawsuit if you savagely beat your attacker down with a closed fist. Not right but it's becoming the way of the world
@@jambondepays1969 Great comment overall, just wanted to mention that wrist locks aren't illegal under MMA rules. Only finger and toe locks.
Bass rutten could be a great example of open hand striking
His Pancras fighting knock out reel is 70% open hand slaps. The man was a nightmare of palm striking liver slapping fury and pain.
The man threw some vicious open hand strikes, however he did used a closed hand when he could.
Perfect example of someone who spent their career taking palm strikes to the lab. He also developed his own version of the "bone strike" or forearm strike which, when delivered, can create a huge amount of force as the "shin of the arms".
MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT BAS RUTTEN.
Here's the man himself:
ua-cam.com/video/Gm0SyEqc7ns/v-deo.html
That last technique is one of the most neglected parts of footwork training: taking the opponent's center of gravity from under him with your steps. Good stuff.
Is the lack of open handed street fight knock outs due to the lack of effectiveness of open hand strikes, or the lack of experience with the move? People untrained in striking are much more likely to use a closed fist, as are people trained in boxing or Muay Thai.
Either way, sparring like this is an excellent way to put it to the test in a safe and controlled manner.
Also, it made me consider other aspects, such as how open hand strikes can be used to set up trapping. Even the potential eye pokes which you mentioned being worried about would be more of an advantage in self-defense.
Shrapnel82 grest point, yesterday I recorded animal style Kung Fu vs Sands sparring where the sanda guy wore protective goggles. I landed some tiger claw palmstrikes, and 2 clean snakefist strikes to his eyes. Look forward to sharing the video:)
Lack of experience = lack of effectiveness.
If you spent your whole life practicing nothing but the crane kick from the karate kid against live resisting opponents, you would get pretty good at kicking fools in the face with it- but that still doesn’t make it a high percentage technique.
@@RamseyDewey well, not exactly... Uppercuts are very effective... Still there is almost no videos of uppercuts in street fights... Most punches there are either hooks, haymakers or straight punches... The thing is that most people do not have experience with uppercuts...
I have a challenge for you... Ask the bagua guy to hit a wall with a palmstrike as hard as he can... Then go and try hitting it harder with a closed fist😉
Jokes aside... I did tma for years before I did boxing for a while... And i can punch with my boxing glove a knockout worthy hook to the bag with no problem... But if i had no glove and tried that with a brick wall i would break my hand...now... With a hooking palmstrike... I can strike just as hard to any surface without peoblem... And i know... I practice that way... (a friend of mine challenged me to "master" openhand strikes... So, lets see how it goes :P right now im having fun with it... Its fun to be able to slam my hand against anything and not get any major injury
Also, i forgot... Its a very common way of ending a sumo match... Tsukitaoshi is whem you knock out the other sumo wrestler with a palmstrike... Its more commom that you would think of... Just look up "sumo knockouts" its not the only way it happens, there are headbutts, big throws and other ways you can actuslly knock the shit out of the other wrestler... But tsuki taoshi is the name for when it happens with palm strikes... And even if the most common way is in the initial charge... Its not the only way it happens... Turns out that if you take every other technique away... Palmstrikes proove themself to work...
@@gingercore69 Well, um, don't punch brick walls :)
I have my first BJJ and Muay Thai classes starting next week. Inspired to sign up after watching your videos!
I second that.
Update; I just finished my first class and I LOVED it!! Signed up for a membership and I am going back tomorrow!
This sparring sessios had been a really goog Idea. Good to see comparing different martial arts in sparring with so much respect.
Nice vid Ramsey and can you make more comparing different fighting platforms.
I have so many things to say about this but I won't go on a rant. I do love how you try things and give honest feedback. So many people do this just to prove their own way is right. Respect to you man
Bagua dude is very interesting! I wonder how and where he trained his traditional stuff.
One of your best videos sir! Would love more of these videos that can give an insight into why traditional Chinese martial arts do things a certain way...
Thank you for this. It is refreshing to see someone being open to traditional martial arts rather than what seems to be a trend of just dismissing it as just dancing.
The difference between your conversation with Nils at the beginning and then at the end after sparring with Linji was honest and enlightening - especially Nils's realisation of different "truths"...
I also appreciated that there was no ego - just sharing and learning. Old and new working together advance the art and the understanding.
Thank you Linji, Ramsey and Nils :-)
Martial arts is a pursuit of the truth: all of it.
Baguazhang is all about hiding your centerline, while either getting to the opponents side or back through the Bagua equivalent of an arm drag, or crashing through the opponents centerline if they successfully defend that. It’s heavily influenced bY Shuaijiao, and pairs really nicely with Xingyiquan.
Evasive movement and footwork to get you to place where they can't hit you but you can throw them 👍
"crashing through the opponents centerline if they successfully defend that." ... Or if you have an opening. Generally, BAgua practitioners also practice Xing yi quan, to complete the linear practice and boxing.
@@ISkandarash can you tell me why people say xingyiquan pairs nicely with baguazhang? I think they're different in concept
Hsing-I is awesome.
Adam B Hsing-I is awesome. While the gyms have been closed, Pakua, Hsing-I, and Chen Tai Chi (you seem to like the Wade-Giles romanization method, which I’m partial to) have been my workout regimen, along with body weight stuff and Zhan Zhuang.
As a Xingyi Quan practicioner, I gotta say: this was really enlightening.
Estoy realmente agradecido contigo Mr. Dewey, tu aproximación a las artes marciales es realmente única
I like how the first sparring match between two guys who *DON'T* know how to fight open-handed looked like "boxing but without clenching fists" and that devolved into a slap fight. When you moved on to someone who knew how to actually fight with their hands like that, you were suddenly in a whole new kind of fight and having to adjust how you handled yourselves. It was interesting to see you changing up your techniques when faced with examples of how it's meant to work.
I gotta say I'd rather risk a boxer's fracture than get stomped into a coma because I wanted to _maybe_ avoid a trip to the ER.
As long as you finish the fight with one or two punches. I wouldn't want to be in the middle of a fight with a broken hand or two.
Since I'm primarily a grappler and don't care about accidentally poking someone's eyes in a street fight, I'd probably use open-handed strikes just because my goal is to get them to raise their guard so I can shoot in and don't see the benefit in potentially breaking my hand to achieve this.
Boxer's fracture = get stomped into a coma. because you'll have no weapon to fight.
@@SanNico How did you know I'm missing both legs and my other arm? Are you looking in my window? Wave hello!
@@biohazard724 Then don't talk about fighting and that's it.
Open hand strikes on the street are not better for power or safety, but sometimes preferable for legal reasons. Say you're attacked by a teenager or an old man, with a lot of witnesses around and you can't just ignore him or otherwise avoid the conflict. You can try to grapple and immobilize him, but that can lead to unexpectedly nasty consequences if he slams his head on the sidewalk for example. But if you just block his attacks and respond with a few swift face slaps you will humiliate and discourage the opponent, while also convincing any bystander or police officer that you did all you could not to injure the moron.
So cool! I love getting to see Bagua techniques used in real sparring, and a discussion of the same concepts I used to learn in my traditional Japanese martial arts (...not that I’d actually be able to use them).
SUPER COOL!
Keyboard warriors coming in in 3 , 2, 1....
joke: Nice to see you all open minded an TRYING these things out with a resisting training partner. There are to many in german we would say "Laberer" (ask Nils) out there! Keep up the work! Expecting to see more of this stuff.
I think that is one of the best video I ever saw from you. It was very entertaining and informative. Also you didn't judge the sport as bad or useless or whatever. Instead you tried it out and saw that it didn't work for you, than you sparred with someone who knows that thing very well and than you change the opinion a little bit. I think that was great also for those who always say you hate every martial arts cause reasons. Know they can watch this video and see how you approach something you are not sure about :D Great work
This is great stuff, Ramsey. Now do one on Southern Praying Mantis! In all seriousness, I really appreciate how pragmatic you are. I trained in Hung Gar in South Florida in 2001 - 2004, right as jiujitsu and MMA were really getting going. All of us TMA guys were like "Nuh-uh!" And then we'd lose a sparring match to a BJJ fellow. You get real practical real fast.
Jack McNally my friend Antony (the referee from Ip Man 2) is a Praying Mantis instructor. I’ve been meaning to do a video with him for a long time.
Really like the way you're exploring this. There are definite pitfalls to the improper application of strikes (all kinds). I've had the fear of hyper extending my wrist or finger before, but that gets better with practice, especially when you remember to go in almost like a relaxed spear hand strike, snapping the hand into a palm strike position at the end of the strike. To me, one of the most important yet most frequently ignored parts of a punch, or really any strike, is the wrist position. You can definitely see that Linji has trained the palm strikes a lot more and it ends up being much more effective. Also, shout out to Linji for using the traditional hand positions properly! Literally 99% of martial arts schools don't know or teach the proper reasoning behind the traditional fighting stance.
I like Linji and his presentation of Bagua Zhang, and I agree with his suggestion.
This was really cool to watch. I love it when the practicality of "Tradition" gets decoded. I'd love to see more of this.
Phinglui mwagnaugh cthuluh ryliegh mwaglnagl phtagn
Linji really knows his stuff. I myself prefer the long range blocking and dodging than the boxer turtle up style (of course nowhere near as effective as this guys, but similar mindset)
Bass Rutten "Bone strikes" is what he perfected in his days as 3x King of Pancrase Champion.
In WC maintaining center doesn’t mean you can not maneuver around your opponent. The concept is the same that Linji was demonstrating, which is first establishing control via a bridge, then distorting your opponents structure, then attacking down the center line.
It was nice to see them work through all the misconceptions about WC on their own. Yip Man did a great service to WC but the Hong Kong system of WC is not a complete system.
Totally agree with you here. I only practice WC for 17 months and I didn't get to learn a lot about footwork but I can see on the more advanced students that they have a lot of footwork in their training.
As a beginner you learn to hold the center line, find your balance and know you body boundary and when you manage to do that the next level exercises build in footwork. The best example of footwork you can find in the practicing with the wooden dummy.
I trained WC for over 15 years and I can confirm that the demonstrated footwork is pretty much like we do it in our flavour of Wing Chun. The idea to go back to the center line OF THE OPPONENT is crazy to me. Why would anybody do that? ;)
@@bened22 ...yes, I mean if you have a choice between the opponent's flank/backside or his direct centerline...of cos you choose the open backside/flank. It's a no-brainer but some people choose to teach their students to blindly charge down the opponent's centerline like WW1 trench warfare, as if their opponents have no arms.
I do HK wing chun, it is a complete system that requires consistent and further training. Being decent vs. being good at mechanics like framing and sensitivity is huge. Including footwork.
According to Linji, Bagua is applied by finding a bridge then seeking to strike. Wing Chun's priority is flipped - Attack by default but if there is something in the way e.g. attack or defense that's where the sensitivity skills come in. Footwork in Wing Chun is pushing off with your feet, but from what I observed in the form, Bagua footwork is like pulling with your feet.
That sparring snippet at the end is very similar to what my school teaches as a beginning, fundamental counter to a haymaker type punch. I've seen many variations of it in other martial arts training videos on YT. This Bagua version is very snappy looking and obviously works well against an even better delivered strike.
I really enjoy seeing very experienced, skilled practitioners of martial arts bringing them onto the mat and pressure testing them like this.
I think open hand techniques can be used if the fighter knows what he
does and has enough training to use it. For example, sometimes it is
easier to use open hands to hit harder locations such as jaw instead of
bare knuckles (there's a higher chance of you breaking your fist/wrist
if you do so). Otherwise go for elbows.
You should watch bas rutten's old pancrase videos, all palm strikes and no gloves
I have a hung kuen teacher who says you should curl your fingers right back unto themselves (if that makes sense without showing). This way there should be less risk of injury to the hands. You can then hit with the botom part of the palm as hard as when you strike with a fist. The downside is loss of reach...
The advantage is that you can hit with full force without any risk of injury so... I guesd the dissadvantage is not that bad... You only have to close the distance a little bit more
Only for straight strikes. For round/hook type strikes you actually gain a bit of reach. When you throw a hook the tendency is for the arm and wrist to curve in a bit so you can get a good contact with your knuckles. For a palm strike the arm is more extended.
That's a classic Tiger Palm. I did about 3 years of Hung Gar - the Tiger stuff is generally misunderstood. It's not really about grappling or clawing or joint manipulation like in the movies. A fair amount of Tiger claw is in fact palm striking.
@@hermessanhao Interesting... I was taught tiger claw as an entire forearm tool, mostly in briges and strikes... and palm strikes mostly reserved to dragon and crane areas...
This is awesome do more of this martial arts gyms should be like a science lab for fighting.
You called it open hand sparring, me and my cousins called it "slap boxing". The only thing that got hurt was your pride from being slapped in the face. Great video, loved the round table discussion at the end.
My 1st martial art was slap boxing as a kid. bloody noses and black eyes
As a Kung fu nerd I can say that I've always thought that WC comes from Ba Gua, not from Shaolin. Not that it's important but I loved the the observation at about 3:10. Great video as always Mr. Ramsey 👏
I think it comes from both that and hsing i. If you look at the fushan wooden dummy and some of the forms you see a lot of ba gua stepping but the strikes and straight line work is more hsing i. Seems like the someone took the circular and linier and tried to mix them.
WC is much older than BaGua
Wing Chun likely comes from an already established, long history of Southern boxing traditions rather than _anything_ Northern stuff. The two regions had almost no contact to speak of in terms of empty hand fighting until very late 19th century.
@@Veepee92 the origin of wing chun are not really clear. From what I have read and heard is most likely derived from white crane which is essentially a counter fighting art. I have heard that karate has been deeply influenced by white crane, expecially Goju-ryu. Its founder learned the art from Hogaonna Kanryo which trained in White Crane in fujian
@@shiyongshuomingshu We don't know what Goju-ryu influencer Higaonna learnt in China, but we know for sure that it wasn't White Crane. There is no credible evidence to support any other proposition.
The history of Wing Chun is also rather unclear and the Crane influence is extremely hypothetical and AFAIK difficult to prove correct.
The open hand on last video almost every time a throw to the upper body was onto the pressure point area. Very nice work gentlemen.
This was a great video. I love the analysis and reflection articulated here.
I know nothing about fighting and hope to never get in one again in my life, but damn this is interesting.
You're perfect for the martial arts! It's 90% mental. Join a school that focuses on technique, form and application where light sparring and weapons training happens often. This is the non-combative approach to MA training which still grants you effectiveness in self defense without the risk of head trauma or severe body damage. I think this is the best way for "non-fighters". Try it, U might b surprised how well you do. Ooss!
Every kid that grew up in the neighborhoods back in the days it was very popular to have slap boxing amongst our selves to prove our skills.Wish these young peoples of today would get out the house and experience life the way we did ,they don’t have to do it all the time but every now and then.
I love this demonstration of traditional Martial Arts with more of the context to show why they exist as they do.
Glad you’re working with them gives a new perspective my respect for you is much greater now too many Tma people talk down to mma and mma people talking down to tma instead of working together great job keep working
You know why fights with framing and palm strikes turn into slap fights so easily?
I'll quote Matt Easton, talking about fencing. "If you want to see really good technique, you need to pit someone skilled against someone, well, a bit shit."
Trapping combos are super cool, unless they're broken. Two guys trading 30% of a combo back and forth is a lot less effective, and aesthetic.
Gentlemen...I think this is BY FAR your MOST IMPORTANT video! Thank you so much for this truly respectful and analytical approach to an age old question concerning TMA. Great job guys! Ooss
Hi
Your channel actually helped me going back in shape. Since I am watching your videos I started training again, lost 18kg so far ( 2 months)
Anyway, this is my very first comment on an online platform or social media but I really like your philosophy and the way you explain the world.
Those of us who come from sports fighting may have a tendency to forget what a skillset punching with the fist is. It is not just making a fist and slinging the arm, hoping for the best. Particularly under pressure, particularly for people who may never have fought with their fists before, this can cause inhibition at a time when you cannot afford to have inhibition. IMO whatever comes out comes out under duress but the reason why in SD people often encourage open hand striking is that it requires much less precision, integrates well with grabbing, scratching and pusing and slapping is something that almost all people have done before and feel capable of doing with enough accuracy.
Another great video! Do you have any other people who know other traditional martial arts that you can do another video like this? It was really cool to watch Linji use Bagua like that.
I would love to see more Linji please, give him my best. As María wrote; its sooo hard to find good, respectful and intelligent videos of TMA in fighting context. This is especially true with the internal kungfu. Linji and you have more to teach the internet/the martial art world - and this type of real dialoge is long overdue (it happens of course, but not as much as style bashing ect.)
It is a quite unique situation to have a... what should we call Linji? Proficient Internal kung fu person that not only are willing to speak to what he knows and pressure test it but also trains with someone who puts out MA videos as a profession :-)
More of this please :-)
I’m editing a new video with Linji right now
@@RamseyDewey still looking forward to it :-)
An open hand strike isn't a slap it's using the base of the hand right above the bone to transmit force. Good to do it to the nose, face region
God finally someone who points this out.
Maybe the best example yet of why correct application of technique is important to evaluate a certain martial art.
One last thing: there is a comment made about Wing Chun being linear. Yes, but who says that straight lines have to be head on?
great video, very interesting to see a contrast of styles and have it explained so well. thanks again
I really enjoyed my time learning bagua even the standing meditation!
I'd love to see a video sometime or an exploration on framing. I know you've done one on handtrapping already, but I don't think you've talked about framing yet!
ua-cam.com/video/PQshO0tqBqU/v-deo.html
Hey Ramsey, for your next video, is it possible to review some Goju Ryu irikumi vids? Like what are your thoughts about the techniques as well as the tactics used.
Great video ramsey! Wanted to point out that Lynji seems to be very open to takedowns. I am not sure why though. Is it his stance or posture or smth? He has that tma stick chest out and chin up in the air so it could be that affects his balance? What are your thoughts on this?
μαριος Καπετανοπουλος it looks that way, but he’s not that easy to take down because of his footwork.
Wing Chun is often misunderstood or practiced badly, controlling the center line doesnt mean charging forward into your opponents power line. It means ensuring your center line is pointing towards his center whilst maneuvering your opponent such that his center line and power do NOT point at you. This gives an advantage. Moving to the side or rear is an example of this. Anyway great comments from all the team, Ill try to come by and visit in September!
I'm here to read angry comments from Wing Chun defenders.
As a Wing Chun practitioner, good luck with that. I like Pa Kua Chang, too. Each art has its place.
Chubby Huang I actually want too see real fighters on this channel ...I know street fighters that would destroy both of those pretenders..
Open hands are for trapping , locks and pulling en pushing the opponent. Open hands are also very good for sensitivity drills🙏
For me, straight palm strikes are better if you turn your fingers more to the side as opposed to straight up, unless you intend to follow through with an eye gouge. Ame with palm uppercuts. As for hooks, I turn my fingers in towards my face so I can expose the palm for the hook strike. Personally, I can get more straight power with a palm over a fist. But I do get better power for hooks and uppercuts with fist over palm. But I could still cause damage if it landed. I haven't sparred like that though.
This was a really cool video. I would like to see more Bagua.
Check out Bass Rutten's open palm strike!..its deavastating!
Love the "frame" clip at the end. That is a really often missed aspect of traditional Chinese arts which does not translate well in to gloved rules. Partially as it does not score points, and partial I find becuase gloves just make the execution to sloppy.
great use of trapping, circle walking, and the bridge! Linji did an awesome job being able to share his experience with you guys. And props to you to be the awesome person you are to make this happen! gloves, no gloves it should all be trained. peace!
At 3:43 I'd say women should open their hands if they have nails bc obviously punching with nails as a fashion choice is gonna hurt yourself a lot more than the other person. But if they do open their hands with nails they can use that as a weapon. Women shouldnt rely on that but anything can help in a self defense situation.
I was looking at Bagua it seems more of the foot work plays a lot on factor it's stable the movement is similar to a boxer the hands parry to get to a blind spot then attack. Also that simple block that palm strike to the shoulder, it's so simple it can unbalance the posture of the attacker very quick for a knockdown as seen or an opening. Thank you Ramsey and your friends for sharing this sparring session and also guys heal your scratch wounds before you guys do another sparring like this.
I like how fresh Linji looked the whole time, i didn't see him get gassed :)
Mantis boxer here. We use open hand strikes primarily to open up the "softer targets" such as liver, solar plexus and stomach. Those strikes are fists. Balance is everything in martial arts. Open hand AND fists. Most techniques are useful in CERTAIN circumstances.
Side note, our objective in my school is to get to a grappling position to affect takedowns and locks, so strikes aren't our only method. Pure striking arts might have a different approach, but I've found open hand strikes to open doors for more destructive strikes extremely effective
What technigues would you advice for a seated person. Have you experimented in elasticity and whipping strikes from a seated position with no hip or foot movement to add weight to the blow? I think of it like when you stop hit a ball on a pool table. the white stops but the force continues into the next ball.
Well done chaps for having an open minded discussion and testing a few things out in what is clearly a vast and multifaceted subject. Most refreshing 👍
I really appreciate this video and how open and honest your feedback is. Really good information.
When I think of open hand strikes Bas Rutten comes to mind.
Great video. When I learned Bagua, coming from a boxing and Kenpo Karate, I had to relearn how to move and I had to learn how to understand to use palm techniques versus closed fist. Very different strategies. My Bagua teacher was an old Wing Chun player and showed me how different they were as arts even though they had similarities. Yeah lots of framing and structural control to set your opponent up. Thanks for sharing and all the hard work.
I always thought the open handed strikes in traditional arts was a way for them to spar without hurting each other and also protection from breaking the hand
Hi Ramsey I have a question. I used to went to thai box trainings and I had learned and improved a lot at fighting but I had stopped because of several reasons. It wasn't safe I and my fellow training partners got injured a lot. I stopped because I had a serious wrist injury. Now my wrist is okay but I don't sure to go back.
My other problem is before and after I was training as a thai boxer I was able to build muscle and streng. In the trainig we did lots of unnasecerry fitness stufs wich made me tired but not stonger. And it had negative effect on my muscle development. I was too tired to work on that 3 times per a week.
So first I would like to build muscle, flexibility (I've started doing yoga daily) also I do conditioning on my body simmilarly like you showed in your fist conditioning video. And after I'm looking like an martial artist, having the flexibility and being as resistant, then I would like to go back to learn technics.
So my question is as a martial artist or at least martial artist wannabe, what should I priotise, building a body that is like one of the martial artists or learning technincs? Wich makes me a better martial artist?
You need a balance of both, really. If you can find a good place that focuses on both properly, then that would be perfect
(Not Ramsey but I am here to help)
Obviously skill is extremely important,more important than muscles,but I fell you,muscles are needed.I am a thai boxer too,and for a period of time I felt almost invincible,my low kicks were nasty but for some reason,over time I felt weaker and fatigued and my low kicks became weak too felling like my legs were made of noodles.One think I can assure you,is just temporarily,this state I was in lasted for almost 4 months.The thing is,don't try to push yourself,make a rhythm for yourself so that you are still working but you are not pushing yourself,you can injure yourself doing that.I can relate about the mass and strenght topic,my muscles and overall power stagnated for those 4 months but I have a week of training that I feel like I am becoming strong again.In conclusion you can build your muscles by doing pylometric exercises that require punching,kicking,overall improving your skills.I am a muay matt,I am a little chubby but is quite strange that I hit even harder then when I was more thin,the secret is tehnique.Don't try to focus just on one,do both,mix them for high efficiency .
Are you excited for the 100k Mr. Remsay? Your channel deserves 1 M.
I know you were excluding kicks from your sparring, but that push technique towards the end of the video looks like a great setup for a head kick! Maybe even one to the leg to take them more off balance.
An important thing to remember is that the founder of Ba Gua and a couple of his original students had wrestling as their base, and Shuai Jiao belt-and-jacket wrestling is an integral part of the curriculum in a couple of the systems.
Can you become a good mma coach if you never compete in mma, boxing or kickboxing?
Some people have a marvelous amount of understanding, but can't fight for anything. My boxing coach is amazing at coaching and breaking everything down, but he isn't the greatest boxer in the world. Fighting is widely based off of personal skill and physicality. So... Yeah.
Of course. Coaching and fighting are radically different skill sets. And there are tons of examples of coaches at the highest level who either never competed in the combat sports they coached, or at the very least never fought pro. That being said, generally speaking, having personal experience with competing in the sport is usually better than having none.
@@RamseyDewey awesome, thanks for answering
Ba Gua is actually the style air nomads use in Avatar, at 7:10 there’s an exact technique Aang used multiple times
At around 6 minutes when Linji was talking about touching and keeping contact but not pushing hard and the similarities to fencing and kendo blade on blade contact reminded me that German longsword also has very similar principles in “binding” and “winding” on and around your opponent’s blade. It’s really interesting seeing how so many martial arts styles end up coming up with similar solutions to the same problems despite being created by peoples living in very different parts of the world
Well, open hand sparing is a very good exercise from the perspective of guessing your opponent's next move, blocking, attacking, and so on. From a pure striking perspective not so much as Nils pointed out, but each exercise has it's purpose in developing a more complete athlete/fighter. As you can see Linji is quite intimidating with his striking pace so if you move that to closed hand sparing he could do quite some damage.
Hey Ramsey, whats your opinion on Bass Rutten's palm strikes, using the bone rather than the actual palm? He knocked people out with that punch back in Pancrase. Do you find that a valid technique or is it just down to Bass being Bass?
The palm is made of bones. I’m not sure what you mean.
@@RamseyDewey I was a little unclear so im not surprised you arent sure what i meant.. I looked up Ruttens video of his palm strike technique. And i have no idea why i spelled his name with two S's before haha...
ua-cam.com/video/Gm0SyEqc7ns/v-deo.html
I had this debate with a youtuber... The "open hand vs closed fist" debate... Me being a closed fist advocate, i said open hand, you have a high risk of breaking your fingers... His reply was "you can hurt your hands with your fist closed also"... Which i agreed and hammered home my final point.. "That is true but, the difference is, a closed fist will put your opponent down, much more often than open hands"
Using the heel of the palm in an open hand strike won't hurt your fingers but if done or landed incorrectly can break your wrist. I agree that a swollen nuckle is much better to deal with.
@@christophermartin2544 accuracy is what will hurt your fingers which in a fight, your opponent doesn't stay still
This one time I had a mock sparring session with my uncle who had about two years wing chun experience, and myself with probably about 6 months to a year of boxing. I had a very difficult time landing any punches. He was always able to block most of what I threw at him. Granted his arms are a good bit longer than mine and my boxing skills were beginner level so I am sure that had a lot to do with it, but regardless it made me think.
Good video. I think it would be cool to see a video of you guys sparring, one guy open handed vs another with mma gloves.
Linji is just using his structure to crush weaker guards, and it's almost like traditional martial arts are effective or something🤔
Happy to see this kind of open inquiry, a nice exchange of light sparring and trying out a different element, inside control fighting is greatly underutilized. I think theirs much still to be understood and learnt from TMA we just need to bravely asses it under more natural conditions
Ramsey,
Have you tried working boxing style punches with the palm heel? As if it was your built in boxing glove?
I think that there’s a tendency to either slap or push, because that’s what you typically do with an open hand. The force equation doesn’t change. It’s still mass times acceleration. You lose about 4 inches of reach. And you may have to adapt the way that your arm is rotated in order to engage the heel of the palm is a striking surface. Jab, straight, hook, uppercut
I really liked the video. It's great you actually gave it a shot with someone who trained this kind of technique, as its use is simply too diffrent from regular boxing
styles. The concept behind the open hand was pretty well explained.
I personally have some experience with this question as it was important for my job. We usually trained Muay Thai and Jiu Jitsu elements for defending ourselves, but were also told to use
open hand and hammerfist strikes whenever possible instead of punches. The most important reason was indeed preventing injuries to our hands. The point why this might be important is
your ability to use tools and weapons effectively after or mid fight. If your job could get you into a situation where you get into a fight and later still have to be ready to fight again, maybe even
use a firearm efficiently, you need to protect your hands during the "minor" trouble earlier. In a streetfight this often does not apply of course since your goal should be either to run away or punch the guy and then run away and not restraining the opponent while, depending on your country's laws/company policy etc., even minimizing the damage you're causing to him and yourself of course. So I guess for anyone outside LEOs, soldiers, private security companies etc. punching is probably the way to go, but for this specific group it has its purpose nonetheless.....at least as far as i experienced it.
Wanted see punches vs palms sparring. light or with a set of gloves
A bit like I was saying in the previous video. The different styles of strikes have different things they are good for, so you just have to be aware of where and how you are going to strike and what options you have.
Even if you don't use open hand to knock out, as shown with Nils getting knocked down, it didn't take much force from either of them to put Nils in a position that he couldn't recover from without falling, and in a fight that can quickly be taken advantage of allowing for something like a mount then move in for a ground and pound.
My coach spared with me once and grabbed my hands to pull me into a punch (he's also been teaching some grappling with Wing Chun in it), so I asked him to show me how to do that. It completely takes people off guard when I do it, and feels so much better to do it than always throw a jab. I still need to work on my framing though.
I'd like to add also that the increased control with the grabbing transitions very nicely into elbows.
Best video you have done yet.. on the difference .
Most importantly us with roots in traditional systems . Must test them like this guy does .
Loved the openess and acceptance.. I've trained bagua once . I was amazed how similar it is to functional not conceptual AIKIDO. Always trying to find the back or 45degrees . Then a perfect AIKIDO technique at the end to prove my thinking .
You are now seeing why these things are done . As well as why the ring is not always the proving ground .
Very impressive.
Fighting art of one ..
There only so many ways we can punch kick or throw someone .
We have one human body . This just shows .
Everything has merit as long as it is tested .
I don't see why these things couldn't work in the ring. It's just that this stuff needs to be drilled under pressure, something a lot of TMA schools don't do.
thanks for the thoughts. cool to see you guys playing with different ideas.
side note: I got a sport Karate gear ad on your video. HAHAHAHAHAHA
Can you also try hitting with the palm while having the fingers clenched (the same as making a fist but you open up the palm by pulling up the fingers). That eliminates the problem with injuring your fingers and gives the hand more tension. The issue with that is that a lot of angles feel awkward and I wonder what you think about that.
Also it is possible to add a pop like one does with a punch by tightening the hand in the end and staying relaxed in the beginning of the strike.
I got one, Gaethje does it alot. When you go for a plum tie it's often good to club them with it. Smack them with the single tie, it's a palm strike
Man, I was in China and didn't come to train with you! Next time!
About the video, we have to understand that Wing Chun has come to be an umbrella term for a generic set of principles, so it's not appropriate to categorically criticize Wing Chun as a whole, because it is very diverse. I live in Cyprus, and people from different WC lineages here, learn very different styles of fighting, yet they are all called Wing Chun. This goes to show that implementing a basic set of rules to a complex system of biomechanics such as the human body is NOT a simple task. It goes through a multiple step process that can lead to extremely different styles. Implementation and utilisation of the principles is always open to interpretation. And this happens exactly for the reason that WC in general is approached too theoretically with not much emphasis on sparring regularly and using the theory in simulations.
In complex systems such as in non linear equations in Physics, the only way you get to see trends and convergence is by simulations. Not by equations and theory.
In other words. Put it to the test. All the differences will converge to shape one martial art that will actually be useful, not merely promising.
Anyway, what was said bout the proper time span to learn Wing Chun is wrong. During the last four years I've learned two instruments from scratch and got a Physics BSc. It was enough time to do it. But my priority was Wing Chun, for the most part. I studied Wing Chun in private lessons and trained like a maniac with every willing person I could find from any martial art, especially for sparring. I can tell you one thing. Two months is not enough if you want to actually get something useful out of your training. More like 3-4 years if you are serious with it and put it to the test regularly.
With this said, I painfully agree with the Bagua practitioner telling people not to study Wing Chun. It pains me to admit it, but for most people it will just not work for DA STREETZ.
Hi Ramsey! Question for you. I’m a fairly short person which is a huge disadvanatage in a fight, I train everyday, but feel like all this training will go waste if I have to ever defend myself in a fight against an ordinary height person because of my short reach. How can I tackle these discouraging thoughts?
I've been looking forward to this since you first mentioned doing it and it doesn't disappoint. Basically you guys came to the conclusion that if you change tools you have to use the tool in a proper way. I want to point out that there is some flaw in the palm strikes not leading to knock out argument. There aren't a lot of knock outs from open hands, but there also not a lot of open hands in general. A second point is that if you are primarily a grapple you can use open hands for setting up shoots or clenches with out the risk of breaking your hand in the process. One more point, most styles that practice open hands are primarily using them with the goal of hitting the throat or breaking the nose, not specifically to achieve a knock out.
Legit question. Didn't Bas Rutten prove open hand strikes pretty much work or do you think that's because the guy is a big enough monster that it didn't matter how he hit you?
The way I see it is that they are trying to be more general.
Bas used basically one palm strike - a big hook (high or low)
Usually when you say palm strike, m thinking of a straight.
Everyone in Pancrase used open palms because that was the rule. When Bas left Pancrase for NHB fighting, he used closed fists like everyone else.
@@RamseyDewey hmmm yeah that's a fair point. Thanks for that :)
Ramsey a quick question about the sparring session dont you think its important to note had you been HARD sparing you could have merely blasted down the "fractured" center line with superior boxing styled forward pressure
It's too gimmicky, why should I change my reaction just because your stance is new I'm not going to allow that to throw me off my game by trying to address a new problem with a new answer I shall simply resort to the master key answer that which is pain
great video! what do you think is the best way to kick? instep or shin? i keep finding mixed results and i would just like to hear your opinion
Different kicks for different situations. If we’re talking about round kicks, shin to the legs, body, neck, or head. Instep to the head and neck. Ball off the foot to the floating ribs (yes, you can throw a roundhouse kick with a flexed foot with the ball of the foot- it’s a higher risk/high reward technique)
Kicks are super dynamic- there are so many different kicks, and so many striking points on the legs and feet: heel, ball of the foot, shin, instep, side of the ankle, three points on the knee... I even met a kungfu master who could front kick with the points on his toes, shockingly without breaking them.
@@RamseyDewey fascinating! ill definitely check out the different variations of kicks that i have been missing out on, thanks for the in depth information, have a nice day!
Hey coach! Love what you do. Have you heard of dave leduc? And what is your opinion on lethwei?