I love how people are starting to realize that there really is a difference between fighting with gloves and fighting without gloves. Typically, the more gear that's worn, the more it shifts from a battle of technique to a battle of weight/power. There's a reason a lot of the older martial arts have so many techniques in them, and a reason many of those techniques are not ideal in the ring. Unfortunately, most people who learn these techniques don't have the presence of mind to use them in a fight even without gloves. I really appreciate the open mindedness of this video.
Yes indeed. Old martial arts have techniques meant to be used with or against armor. Also some others are meant to be used with or against many kinds of weapons.
I think this video illustrates an important point between "mma fighters try self defence" vs. "mma fighters try a martial art." In the former, the techniques are presented that anyone can do them, which I think makes them fair game to trash on the videos and techniques. But in the latter, it (shouldn't be) isn't presented as an easy thing to do, but more as something that takes a ton of practice. Around the 4 minute mark, it seemed like you were convinced open hand sparring wasn't a good use of time. But as you realized later, that was because you and Nils approached it as an MMA fighter would. It's why I hate the X is better than Y arguments. They're different, and they shouldn't be compared directly. This is a great video, I appreciate the sit downs for analysis throughout.
martial arts have different purposes, MMA is made to work well in a cage, one on one, with a referee that will stop the match if it gets dangerous, with a lot of things banned. MMA isn't free fighting like some beginners think: off the top of my head, eye pokes, finger and wrist locks, strikes to the groin and the back of the head are prohibited, for very good reasons mind you, but they are prohibited nonetheless. This is partly why holds and locks are so good in MMA: an armbar is a pretty safe hold when you don't have to worry about protecting your balls, lol the reason TMA have "weird" techniques like open hands is because they're meant to be used anywhere, in self defense (whether or not they properly teach self defense is another matter i'll admit). It doesn't make sense to use open hands in sparring or a MMA fight because your hands will be taped and gloved, so you don't have to worry about breaking your hands. In a street fight that might not be the case however, and you only need one look at bare-handed boxing to know striking the skull with an ungloved hand is more dangerous for the puncher than for the punched. That is not to say MMA or other competitive martial arts will not prepare you for a street fight -- sparring experience is still the #1 factor, and most TMA sadly miss out on this -- but as you rightly said, you need to examine non-competitive martial arts from another angle than a competitive one, because they're made for different purposes.
Definitely! Different applications for different situations. Bagua style open palms are certainly not usually gonna drop opponents like a bare knuckle boxer but it might save you from getting a broken hand. And certainly would not make you look like the aggressor, if you were forced to defend yourself in a day and age where there are virtually cameras everywhere. In reality you are very likely to find yourself defending against criminal charges, or in a lawsuit if you savagely beat your attacker down with a closed fist. Not right but it's becoming the way of the world
Perfect example of someone who spent their career taking palm strikes to the lab. He also developed his own version of the "bone strike" or forearm strike which, when delivered, can create a huge amount of force as the "shin of the arms".
I have so many things to say about this but I won't go on a rant. I do love how you try things and give honest feedback. So many people do this just to prove their own way is right. Respect to you man
That last technique is one of the most neglected parts of footwork training: taking the opponent's center of gravity from under him with your steps. Good stuff.
Is the lack of open handed street fight knock outs due to the lack of effectiveness of open hand strikes, or the lack of experience with the move? People untrained in striking are much more likely to use a closed fist, as are people trained in boxing or Muay Thai. Either way, sparring like this is an excellent way to put it to the test in a safe and controlled manner. Also, it made me consider other aspects, such as how open hand strikes can be used to set up trapping. Even the potential eye pokes which you mentioned being worried about would be more of an advantage in self-defense.
Shrapnel82 grest point, yesterday I recorded animal style Kung Fu vs Sands sparring where the sanda guy wore protective goggles. I landed some tiger claw palmstrikes, and 2 clean snakefist strikes to his eyes. Look forward to sharing the video:)
Lack of experience = lack of effectiveness. If you spent your whole life practicing nothing but the crane kick from the karate kid against live resisting opponents, you would get pretty good at kicking fools in the face with it- but that still doesn’t make it a high percentage technique.
@@RamseyDewey well, not exactly... Uppercuts are very effective... Still there is almost no videos of uppercuts in street fights... Most punches there are either hooks, haymakers or straight punches... The thing is that most people do not have experience with uppercuts... I have a challenge for you... Ask the bagua guy to hit a wall with a palmstrike as hard as he can... Then go and try hitting it harder with a closed fist😉 Jokes aside... I did tma for years before I did boxing for a while... And i can punch with my boxing glove a knockout worthy hook to the bag with no problem... But if i had no glove and tried that with a brick wall i would break my hand...now... With a hooking palmstrike... I can strike just as hard to any surface without peoblem... And i know... I practice that way... (a friend of mine challenged me to "master" openhand strikes... So, lets see how it goes :P right now im having fun with it... Its fun to be able to slam my hand against anything and not get any major injury
Also, i forgot... Its a very common way of ending a sumo match... Tsukitaoshi is whem you knock out the other sumo wrestler with a palmstrike... Its more commom that you would think of... Just look up "sumo knockouts" its not the only way it happens, there are headbutts, big throws and other ways you can actuslly knock the shit out of the other wrestler... But tsuki taoshi is the name for when it happens with palm strikes... And even if the most common way is in the initial charge... Its not the only way it happens... Turns out that if you take every other technique away... Palmstrikes proove themself to work...
Thank you for this. It is refreshing to see someone being open to traditional martial arts rather than what seems to be a trend of just dismissing it as just dancing. The difference between your conversation with Nils at the beginning and then at the end after sparring with Linji was honest and enlightening - especially Nils's realisation of different "truths"... I also appreciated that there was no ego - just sharing and learning. Old and new working together advance the art and the understanding. Thank you Linji, Ramsey and Nils :-)
One of your best videos sir! Would love more of these videos that can give an insight into why traditional Chinese martial arts do things a certain way...
As a Xingyi Quan practicioner, I gotta say: this was really enlightening. Estoy realmente agradecido contigo Mr. Dewey, tu aproximación a las artes marciales es realmente única
I like how the first sparring match between two guys who *DON'T* know how to fight open-handed looked like "boxing but without clenching fists" and that devolved into a slap fight. When you moved on to someone who knew how to actually fight with their hands like that, you were suddenly in a whole new kind of fight and having to adjust how you handled yourselves. It was interesting to see you changing up your techniques when faced with examples of how it's meant to work.
So cool! I love getting to see Bagua techniques used in real sparring, and a discussion of the same concepts I used to learn in my traditional Japanese martial arts (...not that I’d actually be able to use them). SUPER COOL!
Baguazhang is all about hiding your centerline, while either getting to the opponents side or back through the Bagua equivalent of an arm drag, or crashing through the opponents centerline if they successfully defend that. It’s heavily influenced bY Shuaijiao, and pairs really nicely with Xingyiquan.
"crashing through the opponents centerline if they successfully defend that." ... Or if you have an opening. Generally, BAgua practitioners also practice Xing yi quan, to complete the linear practice and boxing.
Adam B Hsing-I is awesome. While the gyms have been closed, Pakua, Hsing-I, and Chen Tai Chi (you seem to like the Wade-Giles romanization method, which I’m partial to) have been my workout regimen, along with body weight stuff and Zhan Zhuang.
I think that is one of the best video I ever saw from you. It was very entertaining and informative. Also you didn't judge the sport as bad or useless or whatever. Instead you tried it out and saw that it didn't work for you, than you sparred with someone who knows that thing very well and than you change the opinion a little bit. I think that was great also for those who always say you hate every martial arts cause reasons. Know they can watch this video and see how you approach something you are not sure about :D Great work
That sparring snippet at the end is very similar to what my school teaches as a beginning, fundamental counter to a haymaker type punch. I've seen many variations of it in other martial arts training videos on YT. This Bagua version is very snappy looking and obviously works well against an even better delivered strike. I really enjoy seeing very experienced, skilled practitioners of martial arts bringing them onto the mat and pressure testing them like this.
Really like the way you're exploring this. There are definite pitfalls to the improper application of strikes (all kinds). I've had the fear of hyper extending my wrist or finger before, but that gets better with practice, especially when you remember to go in almost like a relaxed spear hand strike, snapping the hand into a palm strike position at the end of the strike. To me, one of the most important yet most frequently ignored parts of a punch, or really any strike, is the wrist position. You can definitely see that Linji has trained the palm strikes a lot more and it ends up being much more effective. Also, shout out to Linji for using the traditional hand positions properly! Literally 99% of martial arts schools don't know or teach the proper reasoning behind the traditional fighting stance.
This is great stuff, Ramsey. Now do one on Southern Praying Mantis! In all seriousness, I really appreciate how pragmatic you are. I trained in Hung Gar in South Florida in 2001 - 2004, right as jiujitsu and MMA were really getting going. All of us TMA guys were like "Nuh-uh!" And then we'd lose a sparring match to a BJJ fellow. You get real practical real fast.
Keyboard warriors coming in in 3 , 2, 1.... joke: Nice to see you all open minded an TRYING these things out with a resisting training partner. There are to many in german we would say "Laberer" (ask Nils) out there! Keep up the work! Expecting to see more of this stuff.
Hi Your channel actually helped me going back in shape. Since I am watching your videos I started training again, lost 18kg so far ( 2 months) Anyway, this is my very first comment on an online platform or social media but I really like your philosophy and the way you explain the world.
Open hand strikes on the street are not better for power or safety, but sometimes preferable for legal reasons. Say you're attacked by a teenager or an old man, with a lot of witnesses around and you can't just ignore him or otherwise avoid the conflict. You can try to grapple and immobilize him, but that can lead to unexpectedly nasty consequences if he slams his head on the sidewalk for example. But if you just block his attacks and respond with a few swift face slaps you will humiliate and discourage the opponent, while also convincing any bystander or police officer that you did all you could not to injure the moron.
Glad you’re working with them gives a new perspective my respect for you is much greater now too many Tma people talk down to mma and mma people talking down to tma instead of working together great job keep working
You called it open hand sparring, me and my cousins called it "slap boxing". The only thing that got hurt was your pride from being slapped in the face. Great video, loved the round table discussion at the end.
Gentlemen...I think this is BY FAR your MOST IMPORTANT video! Thank you so much for this truly respectful and analytical approach to an age old question concerning TMA. Great job guys! Ooss
Since I'm primarily a grappler and don't care about accidentally poking someone's eyes in a street fight, I'd probably use open-handed strikes just because my goal is to get them to raise their guard so I can shoot in and don't see the benefit in potentially breaking my hand to achieve this.
I think open hand techniques can be used if the fighter knows what he does and has enough training to use it. For example, sometimes it is easier to use open hands to hit harder locations such as jaw instead of bare knuckles (there's a higher chance of you breaking your fist/wrist if you do so). Otherwise go for elbows.
In WC maintaining center doesn’t mean you can not maneuver around your opponent. The concept is the same that Linji was demonstrating, which is first establishing control via a bridge, then distorting your opponents structure, then attacking down the center line. It was nice to see them work through all the misconceptions about WC on their own. Yip Man did a great service to WC but the Hong Kong system of WC is not a complete system.
Totally agree with you here. I only practice WC for 17 months and I didn't get to learn a lot about footwork but I can see on the more advanced students that they have a lot of footwork in their training. As a beginner you learn to hold the center line, find your balance and know you body boundary and when you manage to do that the next level exercises build in footwork. The best example of footwork you can find in the practicing with the wooden dummy.
I trained WC for over 15 years and I can confirm that the demonstrated footwork is pretty much like we do it in our flavour of Wing Chun. The idea to go back to the center line OF THE OPPONENT is crazy to me. Why would anybody do that? ;)
@@bened22 ...yes, I mean if you have a choice between the opponent's flank/backside or his direct centerline...of cos you choose the open backside/flank. It's a no-brainer but some people choose to teach their students to blindly charge down the opponent's centerline like WW1 trench warfare, as if their opponents have no arms.
I do HK wing chun, it is a complete system that requires consistent and further training. Being decent vs. being good at mechanics like framing and sensitivity is huge. Including footwork. According to Linji, Bagua is applied by finding a bridge then seeking to strike. Wing Chun's priority is flipped - Attack by default but if there is something in the way e.g. attack or defense that's where the sensitivity skills come in. Footwork in Wing Chun is pushing off with your feet, but from what I observed in the form, Bagua footwork is like pulling with your feet.
Well done chaps for having an open minded discussion and testing a few things out in what is clearly a vast and multifaceted subject. Most refreshing 👍
Linji really knows his stuff. I myself prefer the long range blocking and dodging than the boxer turtle up style (of course nowhere near as effective as this guys, but similar mindset)
Every kid that grew up in the neighborhoods back in the days it was very popular to have slap boxing amongst our selves to prove our skills.Wish these young peoples of today would get out the house and experience life the way we did ,they don’t have to do it all the time but every now and then.
I have a hung kuen teacher who says you should curl your fingers right back unto themselves (if that makes sense without showing). This way there should be less risk of injury to the hands. You can then hit with the botom part of the palm as hard as when you strike with a fist. The downside is loss of reach...
The advantage is that you can hit with full force without any risk of injury so... I guesd the dissadvantage is not that bad... You only have to close the distance a little bit more
Only for straight strikes. For round/hook type strikes you actually gain a bit of reach. When you throw a hook the tendency is for the arm and wrist to curve in a bit so you can get a good contact with your knuckles. For a palm strike the arm is more extended.
That's a classic Tiger Palm. I did about 3 years of Hung Gar - the Tiger stuff is generally misunderstood. It's not really about grappling or clawing or joint manipulation like in the movies. A fair amount of Tiger claw is in fact palm striking.
@@hermessanhao Interesting... I was taught tiger claw as an entire forearm tool, mostly in briges and strikes... and palm strikes mostly reserved to dragon and crane areas...
I would love to see more Linji please, give him my best. As María wrote; its sooo hard to find good, respectful and intelligent videos of TMA in fighting context. This is especially true with the internal kungfu. Linji and you have more to teach the internet/the martial art world - and this type of real dialoge is long overdue (it happens of course, but not as much as style bashing ect.) It is a quite unique situation to have a... what should we call Linji? Proficient Internal kung fu person that not only are willing to speak to what he knows and pressure test it but also trains with someone who puts out MA videos as a profession :-) More of this please :-)
I really appreciate this video and how open and honest your feedback is. Really good information. When I think of open hand strikes Bas Rutten comes to mind.
Happy to see this kind of open inquiry, a nice exchange of light sparring and trying out a different element, inside control fighting is greatly underutilized. I think theirs much still to be understood and learnt from TMA we just need to bravely asses it under more natural conditions
Great video!...I'm a WC practitioner myself and I respect you guys taking the time to try out open hand sparring. I just wanted to point out your guys' analysis on the WC 45 degree side step and that it's only to deal with how quickly we can shift our body out of danger while exploiting an open opportunity to strike. But I've been trained to not just stop at 45 degrees. Like Linji, if 90 degree shift is also effective, then shift body to 45 then to 90 degree (like slicing a pie). WC isn't just linear; it can also be circular like Bagua Zhang with the right understanding. Awesome vid though! I'm will definitely watch more of your videos!
Another great video! Do you have any other people who know other traditional martial arts that you can do another video like this? It was really cool to watch Linji use Bagua like that.
Those of us who come from sports fighting may have a tendency to forget what a skillset punching with the fist is. It is not just making a fist and slinging the arm, hoping for the best. Particularly under pressure, particularly for people who may never have fought with their fists before, this can cause inhibition at a time when you cannot afford to have inhibition. IMO whatever comes out comes out under duress but the reason why in SD people often encourage open hand striking is that it requires much less precision, integrates well with grabbing, scratching and pusing and slapping is something that almost all people have done before and feel capable of doing with enough accuracy.
Best video you have done yet.. on the difference . Most importantly us with roots in traditional systems . Must test them like this guy does . Loved the openess and acceptance.. I've trained bagua once . I was amazed how similar it is to functional not conceptual AIKIDO. Always trying to find the back or 45degrees . Then a perfect AIKIDO technique at the end to prove my thinking . You are now seeing why these things are done . As well as why the ring is not always the proving ground . Very impressive. Fighting art of one .. There only so many ways we can punch kick or throw someone . We have one human body . This just shows . Everything has merit as long as it is tested .
I don't see why these things couldn't work in the ring. It's just that this stuff needs to be drilled under pressure, something a lot of TMA schools don't do.
I was looking at Bagua it seems more of the foot work plays a lot on factor it's stable the movement is similar to a boxer the hands parry to get to a blind spot then attack. Also that simple block that palm strike to the shoulder, it's so simple it can unbalance the posture of the attacker very quick for a knockdown as seen or an opening. Thank you Ramsey and your friends for sharing this sparring session and also guys heal your scratch wounds before you guys do another sparring like this.
I've been looking forward to this since you first mentioned doing it and it doesn't disappoint. Basically you guys came to the conclusion that if you change tools you have to use the tool in a proper way. I want to point out that there is some flaw in the palm strikes not leading to knock out argument. There aren't a lot of knock outs from open hands, but there also not a lot of open hands in general. A second point is that if you are primarily a grapple you can use open hands for setting up shoots or clenches with out the risk of breaking your hand in the process. One more point, most styles that practice open hands are primarily using them with the goal of hitting the throat or breaking the nose, not specifically to achieve a knock out.
Wing Chun is often misunderstood or practiced badly, controlling the center line doesnt mean charging forward into your opponents power line. It means ensuring your center line is pointing towards his center whilst maneuvering your opponent such that his center line and power do NOT point at you. This gives an advantage. Moving to the side or rear is an example of this. Anyway great comments from all the team, Ill try to come by and visit in September!
For me, straight palm strikes are better if you turn your fingers more to the side as opposed to straight up, unless you intend to follow through with an eye gouge. Ame with palm uppercuts. As for hooks, I turn my fingers in towards my face so I can expose the palm for the hook strike. Personally, I can get more straight power with a palm over a fist. But I do get better power for hooks and uppercuts with fist over palm. But I could still cause damage if it landed. I haven't sparred like that though.
I really liked the video. It's great you actually gave it a shot with someone who trained this kind of technique, as its use is simply too diffrent from regular boxing styles. The concept behind the open hand was pretty well explained. I personally have some experience with this question as it was important for my job. We usually trained Muay Thai and Jiu Jitsu elements for defending ourselves, but were also told to use open hand and hammerfist strikes whenever possible instead of punches. The most important reason was indeed preventing injuries to our hands. The point why this might be important is your ability to use tools and weapons effectively after or mid fight. If your job could get you into a situation where you get into a fight and later still have to be ready to fight again, maybe even use a firearm efficiently, you need to protect your hands during the "minor" trouble earlier. In a streetfight this often does not apply of course since your goal should be either to run away or punch the guy and then run away and not restraining the opponent while, depending on your country's laws/company policy etc., even minimizing the damage you're causing to him and yourself of course. So I guess for anyone outside LEOs, soldiers, private security companies etc. punching is probably the way to go, but for this specific group it has its purpose nonetheless.....at least as far as i experienced it.
Great video. When I learned Bagua, coming from a boxing and Kenpo Karate, I had to relearn how to move and I had to learn how to understand to use palm techniques versus closed fist. Very different strategies. My Bagua teacher was an old Wing Chun player and showed me how different they were as arts even though they had similarities. Yeah lots of framing and structural control to set your opponent up. Thanks for sharing and all the hard work.
great use of trapping, circle walking, and the bridge! Linji did an awesome job being able to share his experience with you guys. And props to you to be the awesome person you are to make this happen! gloves, no gloves it should all be trained. peace!
You know why fights with framing and palm strikes turn into slap fights so easily? I'll quote Matt Easton, talking about fencing. "If you want to see really good technique, you need to pit someone skilled against someone, well, a bit shit." Trapping combos are super cool, unless they're broken. Two guys trading 30% of a combo back and forth is a lot less effective, and aesthetic.
You're perfect for the martial arts! It's 90% mental. Join a school that focuses on technique, form and application where light sparring and weapons training happens often. This is the non-combative approach to MA training which still grants you effectiveness in self defense without the risk of head trauma or severe body damage. I think this is the best way for "non-fighters". Try it, U might b surprised how well you do. Ooss!
At around 6 minutes when Linji was talking about touching and keeping contact but not pushing hard and the similarities to fencing and kendo blade on blade contact reminded me that German longsword also has very similar principles in “binding” and “winding” on and around your opponent’s blade. It’s really interesting seeing how so many martial arts styles end up coming up with similar solutions to the same problems despite being created by peoples living in very different parts of the world
Love the "frame" clip at the end. That is a really often missed aspect of traditional Chinese arts which does not translate well in to gloved rules. Partially as it does not score points, and partial I find becuase gloves just make the execution to sloppy.
It is good that you show the difference between someone trying to imitate a style vs someone who is a well versed practitioner using the style. We all have our style biases, if you will. Linji's framing and aggression made a world of difference. From my perspective as a grappler primarily, the framing is most valuable, but you need the striking to set up certain frames effectively. I'm not dismissing the striking, just stating what part I see as what I would use it primarily for, at least until I became more proficient.
i actually really like how he shows the difference in foot work between Bagua and Wing Chun. I was reminded of Tiffany van Soest and Anissa Meksen, who are sort of arch rivals in Glory Kickboxing, and both of them are movement fighters who like to work angles, and both of them are currently fighing under Kicboxing rules but having both come from a Muay Thai background, although Tiffany has additionally also done Karate so she has some spinning attacks and some stance switching, etc, and she really knows how to make her spinning back kick work because of how she sets it up and times it...it finds the liver about 70 or more percent of the time :). I think there is a place for open hand sparring, because on the street we're most likely not going to wear gloves, and your friend with the Bagua background has shown me something i would like to learn :)
Mantis boxer here. We use open hand strikes primarily to open up the "softer targets" such as liver, solar plexus and stomach. Those strikes are fists. Balance is everything in martial arts. Open hand AND fists. Most techniques are useful in CERTAIN circumstances. Side note, our objective in my school is to get to a grappling position to affect takedowns and locks, so strikes aren't our only method. Pure striking arts might have a different approach, but I've found open hand strikes to open doors for more destructive strikes extremely effective
This one time I had a mock sparring session with my uncle who had about two years wing chun experience, and myself with probably about 6 months to a year of boxing. I had a very difficult time landing any punches. He was always able to block most of what I threw at him. Granted his arms are a good bit longer than mine and my boxing skills were beginner level so I am sure that had a lot to do with it, but regardless it made me think. Good video. I think it would be cool to see a video of you guys sparring, one guy open handed vs another with mma gloves.
Open handed strikes are useful because there's less risk of breaking your hand, if you aim at the skull. Instead, the body should be punched. Many traditional MA's used this method, as well as traditional boxing before the Queensberry rules and introduction of gloves. However, yes, i love when you guys do this kind of experiment. You're insightful, respectful and curious. Keep up the good work!
As a Kung fu nerd I can say that I've always thought that WC comes from Ba Gua, not from Shaolin. Not that it's important but I loved the the observation at about 3:10. Great video as always Mr. Ramsey 👏
I think it comes from both that and hsing i. If you look at the fushan wooden dummy and some of the forms you see a lot of ba gua stepping but the strikes and straight line work is more hsing i. Seems like the someone took the circular and linier and tried to mix them.
Wing Chun likely comes from an already established, long history of Southern boxing traditions rather than _anything_ Northern stuff. The two regions had almost no contact to speak of in terms of empty hand fighting until very late 19th century.
@@Veepee92 the origin of wing chun are not really clear. From what I have read and heard is most likely derived from white crane which is essentially a counter fighting art. I have heard that karate has been deeply influenced by white crane, expecially Goju-ryu. Its founder learned the art from Hogaonna Kanryo which trained in White Crane in fujian
@@shiyongshuomingshu We don't know what Goju-ryu influencer Higaonna learnt in China, but we know for sure that it wasn't White Crane. There is no credible evidence to support any other proposition. The history of Wing Chun is also rather unclear and the Crane influence is extremely hypothetical and AFAIK difficult to prove correct.
good video. I think, however, that when discussing an open fist, it is worth mentioning that many traditional schools also recommended hardening hands what changes a lot. I had the opportunity to meet people from kung fu environments who spent some time on iron palm (for some reason) and it was a completely different story.
I love how open minded you are, traditional karate katas, are 100% effective, but not if you do katas over and over again, instead you should drill grappling techniques from kata with live resisting opponent
Well, open hand sparing is a very good exercise from the perspective of guessing your opponent's next move, blocking, attacking, and so on. From a pure striking perspective not so much as Nils pointed out, but each exercise has it's purpose in developing a more complete athlete/fighter. As you can see Linji is quite intimidating with his striking pace so if you move that to closed hand sparing he could do quite some damage.
A bit like I was saying in the previous video. The different styles of strikes have different things they are good for, so you just have to be aware of where and how you are going to strike and what options you have. Even if you don't use open hand to knock out, as shown with Nils getting knocked down, it didn't take much force from either of them to put Nils in a position that he couldn't recover from without falling, and in a fight that can quickly be taken advantage of allowing for something like a mount then move in for a ground and pound.
Open hand Sparring is something I personally enjoy a lot because: 1- There is less risk of injuring your sparring partner, therefore 2- You can spar longer and more often with less gear. 3- Parring, framming, traping and pushing is the grapple aspect of pugilism people forget that exist, actually shows up and practicing it with gloves is awefull (in this topic bare knuckle has an upper hand). 4- I forces you to be accurate and fast, more in defense than in offense because a slap, a grab or a push have the same set up so it gets trickyer to deflect and, although easier to block is harder to see predict where is gonna land because 5- Its easier to faint, so whoever has a hard time doing feints or reading them will get better at it eventually. 6- Since it has a 1/10 of the power of a punch and maybe 1/5 of a hammerfist, no matter how strong your arms and sholders are it forces you to put your body in each and every blow, specially body shots, so you have to strike from posture. Just personal opinion, but coach Dewey, was this a no kick sparring session? I mean, there was grapple but no kicks and take downs? I don't get it '-'
Great video ramsey! Wanted to point out that Lynji seems to be very open to takedowns. I am not sure why though. Is it his stance or posture or smth? He has that tma stick chest out and chin up in the air so it could be that affects his balance? What are your thoughts on this?
Fascinating! I did FMA for a few years where the trainer had a strong Southern Praying Mantis background, and seeing experiments like this make me realise it wasn't a waste! More experiments into this, please! Especially considering you're in China!
I know you were excluding kicks from your sparring, but that push technique towards the end of the video looks like a great setup for a head kick! Maybe even one to the leg to take them more off balance.
That stuff about shutting you down while you were trying to guard is the basic idea about chi sao: maintaining forward pressure, controlling opponents limbs and searching for an opening to strike. There are other things you can do as well, for instance instead of waiting for the opponent to open up, you can just keep pressing into his guard with your palm and simultaneously roll you elbow around it. Also, when it comes to palm strikes you have to actually practice them, not go straight into sparring. There's a lot more wrist mechanics going on, and you have to understand how it all works. Also, fantastic video, thank you very much! TMA's get a lot of flak because people think they're merely antiquated forms of training, but there are elements that are lost when you put on gloves. The ideal way to train would be to somehow keep the core aspects of a TMA, but also maintain a sense of pressure and realism.
Great video with a lot of good information! I hope to see more of Linji on your chanel in the future, he seem like a intresting guy :) A thought... you compare using openhanded strikes with strikes using gloves. The people who argue that palmstrikes are better for self-defence compare with punching using a bare fist. I understand if you don't want to hit eachother with bare fists but I want to point out that this i a small flaw in your comparison. It was still a really good video though! Keep up the good work Ramsey!
Open hands striking is powerful if you use palm heels and knife hands to the appropriate targets. Other than that, you're ineffectually slapping (though certain slaps, say, to the ears, can work). One of the main reason to hold your hands in fists is to keep your fingers from being grabbed, snagged, or jammed. Bare-knuckle training can teach appropriate targets for the knuckles, as well as train you to be more accurate and avoid areas that could damage your knuckles. Also, fists can also mean hammer blows and fore-arm slams.
Excelent video! I really like all the discussion that you work out in these videos. I started training wing chung around three or four years ago, and around a yer ago I started training muay thai / kickboxing, and it's really interesting the differences that appear when you put the gloves on. The work as a shield a lot. Some months ago I started thinking it this way: the gloves work as a knight shield, so you can put them between the incoming damage and you, and you will be "fine" as them cover a big quantity of space. The bare hands instead can be seen (in wing chun at least) as two sword, so you can really use them to cover you, but you can use them to trap the danger far away from you. So I started thinking of wing chun's guard more as a dinamic protection than a shield.
Big salute to Lindsey for showing a "soft art" in an MMA gym. It's pretty awesome that if you want to test an obscure form of martial arts you're in totally the right place. Try even getting a look at Ba Gua or Xing Yi in Scotland - People claim to know them but rarely do.
As a lifelong martial artist (Shuri Ryu/ Pa Qua 40+yrs) I see y'alls points. Like anything else, without proper conditioning and good practice open hand techniques have exactly all the weaknesses mentioned. However, conditioned and trained open hand techniques are very effective in real world use. Additionally, not just the hands but forearms (all sides), elbows, finger/tips, knuckles, palms, shoulders, and all the leg as well are conditioned for either attack or defense contact. Sport vs street are totally different obviously so training for self defense should be geared to purpose. Some can break ribs with just finger tips. I once saw a Tai Chi practitioner crush concrete with just an forearm as if it was a fly swat, wearing silk that wasn't even scratched, she was rather tiny. I like your messages; train, practice, be smart in your attitudes, conditioning. Another good video. Thanks for the post.
Thank you for the practical application of BAGUA. As a practitioner of a different martial arts and co-developer of a martial system you can use bagua as an opening to enter into what we call turning the corner when I turn the corner on you I will get behind you and I'm going to end the fight I will snap your neck and be on my way. Don't have time to stand there and play with your opponent. Bagua can also be used very effectively and a multiple opponents scenario.. you really don't want to get caught in the middle of a multiple attack which is to say caught in the middle of the fog of War keep moving still alive thank you for your time
Hi Ramsey , have been enjoying your videos over the last year...and your sensible approach ...Three questions please : 1. How does a Mormon Missionary in South America gravitate to being a professional fighter and coach ? Have you eschewed all your earlier Christian learnings ? 2. What is your view of Yi Quan from Wang Zhang Zhai...and practiced by Yoa Chengrong up in Beijing ? 3 How did you end up opening a Gym in Shanghai ....was it to bring MMA to China ? Keep up the good work , Thanks & Cheers Martin
Hey Ramsey, whats your opinion on Bass Rutten's palm strikes, using the bone rather than the actual palm? He knocked people out with that punch back in Pancrase. Do you find that a valid technique or is it just down to Bass being Bass?
@@RamseyDewey I was a little unclear so im not surprised you arent sure what i meant.. I looked up Ruttens video of his palm strike technique. And i have no idea why i spelled his name with two S's before haha... ua-cam.com/video/Gm0SyEqc7ns/v-deo.html
I had this debate with a youtuber... The "open hand vs closed fist" debate... Me being a closed fist advocate, i said open hand, you have a high risk of breaking your fingers... His reply was "you can hurt your hands with your fist closed also"... Which i agreed and hammered home my final point.. "That is true but, the difference is, a closed fist will put your opponent down, much more often than open hands"
Using the heel of the palm in an open hand strike won't hurt your fingers but if done or landed incorrectly can break your wrist. I agree that a swollen nuckle is much better to deal with.
I would love it if someone combined Wing Chun hand trapping into Wrestling. I could see some interesting collar tie setups and arm drags and duck under shots being set up with hand sticking slipping and trapping. Even some good judo throws as well.
I love how people are starting to realize that there really is a difference between fighting with gloves and fighting without gloves. Typically, the more gear that's worn, the more it shifts from a battle of technique to a battle of weight/power. There's a reason a lot of the older martial arts have so many techniques in them, and a reason many of those techniques are not ideal in the ring. Unfortunately, most people who learn these techniques don't have the presence of mind to use them in a fight even without gloves.
I really appreciate the open mindedness of this video.
Amen to that! 🙏🏻
+1 to that.
Yeah you said a mouthful true true and true
Yes indeed.
Old martial arts have techniques meant to be used with or against armor.
Also some others are meant to be used with or against many kinds of weapons.
Great to see empirical testing of TMA based with a respectful, critical approach and an open mind. Keep up the good work!
@Tai Chi Tube As long as no one goes off and masters internal martial arts it's all good in my view.
Yeah it is called jkd
I think this video illustrates an important point between "mma fighters try self defence" vs. "mma fighters try a martial art." In the former, the techniques are presented that anyone can do them, which I think makes them fair game to trash on the videos and techniques. But in the latter, it (shouldn't be) isn't presented as an easy thing to do, but more as something that takes a ton of practice. Around the 4 minute mark, it seemed like you were convinced open hand sparring wasn't a good use of time. But as you realized later, that was because you and Nils approached it as an MMA fighter would. It's why I hate the X is better than Y arguments. They're different, and they shouldn't be compared directly.
This is a great video, I appreciate the sit downs for analysis throughout.
martial arts have different purposes, MMA is made to work well in a cage, one on one, with a referee that will stop the match if it gets dangerous, with a lot of things banned. MMA isn't free fighting like some beginners think: off the top of my head, eye pokes, finger and wrist locks, strikes to the groin and the back of the head are prohibited, for very good reasons mind you, but they are prohibited nonetheless. This is partly why holds and locks are so good in MMA: an armbar is a pretty safe hold when you don't have to worry about protecting your balls, lol
the reason TMA have "weird" techniques like open hands is because they're meant to be used anywhere, in self defense (whether or not they properly teach self defense is another matter i'll admit). It doesn't make sense to use open hands in sparring or a MMA fight because your hands will be taped and gloved, so you don't have to worry about breaking your hands. In a street fight that might not be the case however, and you only need one look at bare-handed boxing to know striking the skull with an ungloved hand is more dangerous for the puncher than for the punched.
That is not to say MMA or other competitive martial arts will not prepare you for a street fight -- sparring experience is still the #1 factor, and most TMA sadly miss out on this -- but as you rightly said, you need to examine non-competitive martial arts from another angle than a competitive one, because they're made for different purposes.
Definitely! Different applications for different situations. Bagua style open palms are certainly not usually gonna drop opponents like a bare knuckle boxer but it might save you from getting a broken hand. And certainly would not make you look like the aggressor, if you were forced to defend yourself in a day and age where there are virtually cameras everywhere. In reality you are very likely to find yourself defending against criminal charges, or in a lawsuit if you savagely beat your attacker down with a closed fist. Not right but it's becoming the way of the world
@@jambondepays1969 Great comment overall, just wanted to mention that wrist locks aren't illegal under MMA rules. Only finger and toe locks.
Bass rutten could be a great example of open hand striking
His Pancras fighting knock out reel is 70% open hand slaps. The man was a nightmare of palm striking liver slapping fury and pain.
The man threw some vicious open hand strikes, however he did used a closed hand when he could.
Perfect example of someone who spent their career taking palm strikes to the lab. He also developed his own version of the "bone strike" or forearm strike which, when delivered, can create a huge amount of force as the "shin of the arms".
MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT BAS RUTTEN.
Here's the man himself:
ua-cam.com/video/Gm0SyEqc7ns/v-deo.html
This sparring sessios had been a really goog Idea. Good to see comparing different martial arts in sparring with so much respect.
Nice vid Ramsey and can you make more comparing different fighting platforms.
I have so many things to say about this but I won't go on a rant. I do love how you try things and give honest feedback. So many people do this just to prove their own way is right. Respect to you man
That last technique is one of the most neglected parts of footwork training: taking the opponent's center of gravity from under him with your steps. Good stuff.
I have my first BJJ and Muay Thai classes starting next week. Inspired to sign up after watching your videos!
I second that.
Update; I just finished my first class and I LOVED it!! Signed up for a membership and I am going back tomorrow!
Is the lack of open handed street fight knock outs due to the lack of effectiveness of open hand strikes, or the lack of experience with the move? People untrained in striking are much more likely to use a closed fist, as are people trained in boxing or Muay Thai.
Either way, sparring like this is an excellent way to put it to the test in a safe and controlled manner.
Also, it made me consider other aspects, such as how open hand strikes can be used to set up trapping. Even the potential eye pokes which you mentioned being worried about would be more of an advantage in self-defense.
Shrapnel82 grest point, yesterday I recorded animal style Kung Fu vs Sands sparring where the sanda guy wore protective goggles. I landed some tiger claw palmstrikes, and 2 clean snakefist strikes to his eyes. Look forward to sharing the video:)
Lack of experience = lack of effectiveness.
If you spent your whole life practicing nothing but the crane kick from the karate kid against live resisting opponents, you would get pretty good at kicking fools in the face with it- but that still doesn’t make it a high percentage technique.
@@RamseyDewey well, not exactly... Uppercuts are very effective... Still there is almost no videos of uppercuts in street fights... Most punches there are either hooks, haymakers or straight punches... The thing is that most people do not have experience with uppercuts...
I have a challenge for you... Ask the bagua guy to hit a wall with a palmstrike as hard as he can... Then go and try hitting it harder with a closed fist😉
Jokes aside... I did tma for years before I did boxing for a while... And i can punch with my boxing glove a knockout worthy hook to the bag with no problem... But if i had no glove and tried that with a brick wall i would break my hand...now... With a hooking palmstrike... I can strike just as hard to any surface without peoblem... And i know... I practice that way... (a friend of mine challenged me to "master" openhand strikes... So, lets see how it goes :P right now im having fun with it... Its fun to be able to slam my hand against anything and not get any major injury
Also, i forgot... Its a very common way of ending a sumo match... Tsukitaoshi is whem you knock out the other sumo wrestler with a palmstrike... Its more commom that you would think of... Just look up "sumo knockouts" its not the only way it happens, there are headbutts, big throws and other ways you can actuslly knock the shit out of the other wrestler... But tsuki taoshi is the name for when it happens with palm strikes... And even if the most common way is in the initial charge... Its not the only way it happens... Turns out that if you take every other technique away... Palmstrikes proove themself to work...
@@gingercore69 Well, um, don't punch brick walls :)
Thank you for this. It is refreshing to see someone being open to traditional martial arts rather than what seems to be a trend of just dismissing it as just dancing.
The difference between your conversation with Nils at the beginning and then at the end after sparring with Linji was honest and enlightening - especially Nils's realisation of different "truths"...
I also appreciated that there was no ego - just sharing and learning. Old and new working together advance the art and the understanding.
Thank you Linji, Ramsey and Nils :-)
Martial arts is a pursuit of the truth: all of it.
One of your best videos sir! Would love more of these videos that can give an insight into why traditional Chinese martial arts do things a certain way...
As a Xingyi Quan practicioner, I gotta say: this was really enlightening.
Estoy realmente agradecido contigo Mr. Dewey, tu aproximación a las artes marciales es realmente única
I like how the first sparring match between two guys who *DON'T* know how to fight open-handed looked like "boxing but without clenching fists" and that devolved into a slap fight. When you moved on to someone who knew how to actually fight with their hands like that, you were suddenly in a whole new kind of fight and having to adjust how you handled yourselves. It was interesting to see you changing up your techniques when faced with examples of how it's meant to work.
So cool! I love getting to see Bagua techniques used in real sparring, and a discussion of the same concepts I used to learn in my traditional Japanese martial arts (...not that I’d actually be able to use them).
SUPER COOL!
Baguazhang is all about hiding your centerline, while either getting to the opponents side or back through the Bagua equivalent of an arm drag, or crashing through the opponents centerline if they successfully defend that. It’s heavily influenced bY Shuaijiao, and pairs really nicely with Xingyiquan.
Evasive movement and footwork to get you to place where they can't hit you but you can throw them 👍
"crashing through the opponents centerline if they successfully defend that." ... Or if you have an opening. Generally, BAgua practitioners also practice Xing yi quan, to complete the linear practice and boxing.
@@ISkandarash can you tell me why people say xingyiquan pairs nicely with baguazhang? I think they're different in concept
Hsing-I is awesome.
Adam B Hsing-I is awesome. While the gyms have been closed, Pakua, Hsing-I, and Chen Tai Chi (you seem to like the Wade-Giles romanization method, which I’m partial to) have been my workout regimen, along with body weight stuff and Zhan Zhuang.
Bagua dude is very interesting! I wonder how and where he trained his traditional stuff.
I think that is one of the best video I ever saw from you. It was very entertaining and informative. Also you didn't judge the sport as bad or useless or whatever. Instead you tried it out and saw that it didn't work for you, than you sparred with someone who knows that thing very well and than you change the opinion a little bit. I think that was great also for those who always say you hate every martial arts cause reasons. Know they can watch this video and see how you approach something you are not sure about :D Great work
The open hand on last video almost every time a throw to the upper body was onto the pressure point area. Very nice work gentlemen.
That sparring snippet at the end is very similar to what my school teaches as a beginning, fundamental counter to a haymaker type punch. I've seen many variations of it in other martial arts training videos on YT. This Bagua version is very snappy looking and obviously works well against an even better delivered strike.
I really enjoy seeing very experienced, skilled practitioners of martial arts bringing them onto the mat and pressure testing them like this.
Really like the way you're exploring this. There are definite pitfalls to the improper application of strikes (all kinds). I've had the fear of hyper extending my wrist or finger before, but that gets better with practice, especially when you remember to go in almost like a relaxed spear hand strike, snapping the hand into a palm strike position at the end of the strike. To me, one of the most important yet most frequently ignored parts of a punch, or really any strike, is the wrist position. You can definitely see that Linji has trained the palm strikes a lot more and it ends up being much more effective. Also, shout out to Linji for using the traditional hand positions properly! Literally 99% of martial arts schools don't know or teach the proper reasoning behind the traditional fighting stance.
This was really cool to watch. I love it when the practicality of "Tradition" gets decoded. I'd love to see more of this.
Phinglui mwagnaugh cthuluh ryliegh mwaglnagl phtagn
This is great stuff, Ramsey. Now do one on Southern Praying Mantis! In all seriousness, I really appreciate how pragmatic you are. I trained in Hung Gar in South Florida in 2001 - 2004, right as jiujitsu and MMA were really getting going. All of us TMA guys were like "Nuh-uh!" And then we'd lose a sparring match to a BJJ fellow. You get real practical real fast.
Jack McNally my friend Antony (the referee from Ip Man 2) is a Praying Mantis instructor. I’ve been meaning to do a video with him for a long time.
Keyboard warriors coming in in 3 , 2, 1....
joke: Nice to see you all open minded an TRYING these things out with a resisting training partner. There are to many in german we would say "Laberer" (ask Nils) out there! Keep up the work! Expecting to see more of this stuff.
Hi
Your channel actually helped me going back in shape. Since I am watching your videos I started training again, lost 18kg so far ( 2 months)
Anyway, this is my very first comment on an online platform or social media but I really like your philosophy and the way you explain the world.
I like Linji and his presentation of Bagua Zhang, and I agree with his suggestion.
Open hand strikes on the street are not better for power or safety, but sometimes preferable for legal reasons. Say you're attacked by a teenager or an old man, with a lot of witnesses around and you can't just ignore him or otherwise avoid the conflict. You can try to grapple and immobilize him, but that can lead to unexpectedly nasty consequences if he slams his head on the sidewalk for example. But if you just block his attacks and respond with a few swift face slaps you will humiliate and discourage the opponent, while also convincing any bystander or police officer that you did all you could not to injure the moron.
Glad you’re working with them gives a new perspective my respect for you is much greater now too many Tma people talk down to mma and mma people talking down to tma instead of working together great job keep working
You called it open hand sparring, me and my cousins called it "slap boxing". The only thing that got hurt was your pride from being slapped in the face. Great video, loved the round table discussion at the end.
My 1st martial art was slap boxing as a kid. bloody noses and black eyes
This was a great video. I love the analysis and reflection articulated here.
Gentlemen...I think this is BY FAR your MOST IMPORTANT video! Thank you so much for this truly respectful and analytical approach to an age old question concerning TMA. Great job guys! Ooss
I gotta say I'd rather risk a boxer's fracture than get stomped into a coma because I wanted to _maybe_ avoid a trip to the ER.
As long as you finish the fight with one or two punches. I wouldn't want to be in the middle of a fight with a broken hand or two.
Since I'm primarily a grappler and don't care about accidentally poking someone's eyes in a street fight, I'd probably use open-handed strikes just because my goal is to get them to raise their guard so I can shoot in and don't see the benefit in potentially breaking my hand to achieve this.
Boxer's fracture = get stomped into a coma. because you'll have no weapon to fight.
@@SanNico How did you know I'm missing both legs and my other arm? Are you looking in my window? Wave hello!
@@biohazard724 Then don't talk about fighting and that's it.
I think open hand techniques can be used if the fighter knows what he
does and has enough training to use it. For example, sometimes it is
easier to use open hands to hit harder locations such as jaw instead of
bare knuckles (there's a higher chance of you breaking your fist/wrist
if you do so). Otherwise go for elbows.
You should watch bas rutten's old pancrase videos, all palm strikes and no gloves
In WC maintaining center doesn’t mean you can not maneuver around your opponent. The concept is the same that Linji was demonstrating, which is first establishing control via a bridge, then distorting your opponents structure, then attacking down the center line.
It was nice to see them work through all the misconceptions about WC on their own. Yip Man did a great service to WC but the Hong Kong system of WC is not a complete system.
Totally agree with you here. I only practice WC for 17 months and I didn't get to learn a lot about footwork but I can see on the more advanced students that they have a lot of footwork in their training.
As a beginner you learn to hold the center line, find your balance and know you body boundary and when you manage to do that the next level exercises build in footwork. The best example of footwork you can find in the practicing with the wooden dummy.
I trained WC for over 15 years and I can confirm that the demonstrated footwork is pretty much like we do it in our flavour of Wing Chun. The idea to go back to the center line OF THE OPPONENT is crazy to me. Why would anybody do that? ;)
@@bened22 ...yes, I mean if you have a choice between the opponent's flank/backside or his direct centerline...of cos you choose the open backside/flank. It's a no-brainer but some people choose to teach their students to blindly charge down the opponent's centerline like WW1 trench warfare, as if their opponents have no arms.
I do HK wing chun, it is a complete system that requires consistent and further training. Being decent vs. being good at mechanics like framing and sensitivity is huge. Including footwork.
According to Linji, Bagua is applied by finding a bridge then seeking to strike. Wing Chun's priority is flipped - Attack by default but if there is something in the way e.g. attack or defense that's where the sensitivity skills come in. Footwork in Wing Chun is pushing off with your feet, but from what I observed in the form, Bagua footwork is like pulling with your feet.
Bass Rutten "Bone strikes" is what he perfected in his days as 3x King of Pancrase Champion.
Well done chaps for having an open minded discussion and testing a few things out in what is clearly a vast and multifaceted subject. Most refreshing 👍
Linji really knows his stuff. I myself prefer the long range blocking and dodging than the boxer turtle up style (of course nowhere near as effective as this guys, but similar mindset)
Every kid that grew up in the neighborhoods back in the days it was very popular to have slap boxing amongst our selves to prove our skills.Wish these young peoples of today would get out the house and experience life the way we did ,they don’t have to do it all the time but every now and then.
I have a hung kuen teacher who says you should curl your fingers right back unto themselves (if that makes sense without showing). This way there should be less risk of injury to the hands. You can then hit with the botom part of the palm as hard as when you strike with a fist. The downside is loss of reach...
The advantage is that you can hit with full force without any risk of injury so... I guesd the dissadvantage is not that bad... You only have to close the distance a little bit more
Only for straight strikes. For round/hook type strikes you actually gain a bit of reach. When you throw a hook the tendency is for the arm and wrist to curve in a bit so you can get a good contact with your knuckles. For a palm strike the arm is more extended.
That's a classic Tiger Palm. I did about 3 years of Hung Gar - the Tiger stuff is generally misunderstood. It's not really about grappling or clawing or joint manipulation like in the movies. A fair amount of Tiger claw is in fact palm striking.
@@hermessanhao Interesting... I was taught tiger claw as an entire forearm tool, mostly in briges and strikes... and palm strikes mostly reserved to dragon and crane areas...
I would love to see more Linji please, give him my best. As María wrote; its sooo hard to find good, respectful and intelligent videos of TMA in fighting context. This is especially true with the internal kungfu. Linji and you have more to teach the internet/the martial art world - and this type of real dialoge is long overdue (it happens of course, but not as much as style bashing ect.)
It is a quite unique situation to have a... what should we call Linji? Proficient Internal kung fu person that not only are willing to speak to what he knows and pressure test it but also trains with someone who puts out MA videos as a profession :-)
More of this please :-)
I’m editing a new video with Linji right now
@@RamseyDewey still looking forward to it :-)
This is awesome do more of this martial arts gyms should be like a science lab for fighting.
I really appreciate this video and how open and honest your feedback is. Really good information.
When I think of open hand strikes Bas Rutten comes to mind.
I love this demonstration of traditional Martial Arts with more of the context to show why they exist as they do.
Maybe the best example yet of why correct application of technique is important to evaluate a certain martial art.
great video, very interesting to see a contrast of styles and have it explained so well. thanks again
I really enjoyed my time learning bagua even the standing meditation!
Happy to see this kind of open inquiry, a nice exchange of light sparring and trying out a different element, inside control fighting is greatly underutilized. I think theirs much still to be understood and learnt from TMA we just need to bravely asses it under more natural conditions
Great video!...I'm a WC practitioner myself and I respect you guys taking the time to try out open hand sparring. I just wanted to point out your guys' analysis on the WC 45 degree side step and that it's only to deal with how quickly we can shift our body out of danger while exploiting an open opportunity to strike. But I've been trained to not just stop at 45 degrees. Like Linji, if 90 degree shift is also effective, then shift body to 45 then to 90 degree (like slicing a pie). WC isn't just linear; it can also be circular like Bagua Zhang with the right understanding. Awesome vid though! I'm will definitely watch more of your videos!
Another great video! Do you have any other people who know other traditional martial arts that you can do another video like this? It was really cool to watch Linji use Bagua like that.
This was a really cool video. I would like to see more Bagua.
Those of us who come from sports fighting may have a tendency to forget what a skillset punching with the fist is. It is not just making a fist and slinging the arm, hoping for the best. Particularly under pressure, particularly for people who may never have fought with their fists before, this can cause inhibition at a time when you cannot afford to have inhibition. IMO whatever comes out comes out under duress but the reason why in SD people often encourage open hand striking is that it requires much less precision, integrates well with grabbing, scratching and pusing and slapping is something that almost all people have done before and feel capable of doing with enough accuracy.
Best video you have done yet.. on the difference .
Most importantly us with roots in traditional systems . Must test them like this guy does .
Loved the openess and acceptance.. I've trained bagua once . I was amazed how similar it is to functional not conceptual AIKIDO. Always trying to find the back or 45degrees . Then a perfect AIKIDO technique at the end to prove my thinking .
You are now seeing why these things are done . As well as why the ring is not always the proving ground .
Very impressive.
Fighting art of one ..
There only so many ways we can punch kick or throw someone .
We have one human body . This just shows .
Everything has merit as long as it is tested .
I don't see why these things couldn't work in the ring. It's just that this stuff needs to be drilled under pressure, something a lot of TMA schools don't do.
I was looking at Bagua it seems more of the foot work plays a lot on factor it's stable the movement is similar to a boxer the hands parry to get to a blind spot then attack. Also that simple block that palm strike to the shoulder, it's so simple it can unbalance the posture of the attacker very quick for a knockdown as seen or an opening. Thank you Ramsey and your friends for sharing this sparring session and also guys heal your scratch wounds before you guys do another sparring like this.
I've been looking forward to this since you first mentioned doing it and it doesn't disappoint. Basically you guys came to the conclusion that if you change tools you have to use the tool in a proper way. I want to point out that there is some flaw in the palm strikes not leading to knock out argument. There aren't a lot of knock outs from open hands, but there also not a lot of open hands in general. A second point is that if you are primarily a grapple you can use open hands for setting up shoots or clenches with out the risk of breaking your hand in the process. One more point, most styles that practice open hands are primarily using them with the goal of hitting the throat or breaking the nose, not specifically to achieve a knock out.
Wing Chun is often misunderstood or practiced badly, controlling the center line doesnt mean charging forward into your opponents power line. It means ensuring your center line is pointing towards his center whilst maneuvering your opponent such that his center line and power do NOT point at you. This gives an advantage. Moving to the side or rear is an example of this. Anyway great comments from all the team, Ill try to come by and visit in September!
For me, straight palm strikes are better if you turn your fingers more to the side as opposed to straight up, unless you intend to follow through with an eye gouge. Ame with palm uppercuts. As for hooks, I turn my fingers in towards my face so I can expose the palm for the hook strike. Personally, I can get more straight power with a palm over a fist. But I do get better power for hooks and uppercuts with fist over palm. But I could still cause damage if it landed. I haven't sparred like that though.
I really liked the video. It's great you actually gave it a shot with someone who trained this kind of technique, as its use is simply too diffrent from regular boxing
styles. The concept behind the open hand was pretty well explained.
I personally have some experience with this question as it was important for my job. We usually trained Muay Thai and Jiu Jitsu elements for defending ourselves, but were also told to use
open hand and hammerfist strikes whenever possible instead of punches. The most important reason was indeed preventing injuries to our hands. The point why this might be important is
your ability to use tools and weapons effectively after or mid fight. If your job could get you into a situation where you get into a fight and later still have to be ready to fight again, maybe even
use a firearm efficiently, you need to protect your hands during the "minor" trouble earlier. In a streetfight this often does not apply of course since your goal should be either to run away or punch the guy and then run away and not restraining the opponent while, depending on your country's laws/company policy etc., even minimizing the damage you're causing to him and yourself of course. So I guess for anyone outside LEOs, soldiers, private security companies etc. punching is probably the way to go, but for this specific group it has its purpose nonetheless.....at least as far as i experienced it.
Great video. When I learned Bagua, coming from a boxing and Kenpo Karate, I had to relearn how to move and I had to learn how to understand to use palm techniques versus closed fist. Very different strategies. My Bagua teacher was an old Wing Chun player and showed me how different they were as arts even though they had similarities. Yeah lots of framing and structural control to set your opponent up. Thanks for sharing and all the hard work.
great use of trapping, circle walking, and the bridge! Linji did an awesome job being able to share his experience with you guys. And props to you to be the awesome person you are to make this happen! gloves, no gloves it should all be trained. peace!
An open hand strike isn't a slap it's using the base of the hand right above the bone to transmit force. Good to do it to the nose, face region
God finally someone who points this out.
You know why fights with framing and palm strikes turn into slap fights so easily?
I'll quote Matt Easton, talking about fencing. "If you want to see really good technique, you need to pit someone skilled against someone, well, a bit shit."
Trapping combos are super cool, unless they're broken. Two guys trading 30% of a combo back and forth is a lot less effective, and aesthetic.
I know nothing about fighting and hope to never get in one again in my life, but damn this is interesting.
You're perfect for the martial arts! It's 90% mental. Join a school that focuses on technique, form and application where light sparring and weapons training happens often. This is the non-combative approach to MA training which still grants you effectiveness in self defense without the risk of head trauma or severe body damage. I think this is the best way for "non-fighters". Try it, U might b surprised how well you do. Ooss!
At around 6 minutes when Linji was talking about touching and keeping contact but not pushing hard and the similarities to fencing and kendo blade on blade contact reminded me that German longsword also has very similar principles in “binding” and “winding” on and around your opponent’s blade. It’s really interesting seeing how so many martial arts styles end up coming up with similar solutions to the same problems despite being created by peoples living in very different parts of the world
Love the "frame" clip at the end. That is a really often missed aspect of traditional Chinese arts which does not translate well in to gloved rules. Partially as it does not score points, and partial I find becuase gloves just make the execution to sloppy.
It is good that you show the difference between someone trying to imitate a style vs someone who is a well versed practitioner using the style.
We all have our style biases, if you will.
Linji's framing and aggression made a world of difference.
From my perspective as a grappler primarily, the framing is most valuable, but you need the striking to set up certain frames effectively.
I'm not dismissing the striking, just stating what part I see as what I would use it primarily for, at least until I became more proficient.
Open hands are for trapping , locks and pulling en pushing the opponent. Open hands are also very good for sensitivity drills🙏
Are you excited for the 100k Mr. Remsay? Your channel deserves 1 M.
One last thing: there is a comment made about Wing Chun being linear. Yes, but who says that straight lines have to be head on?
i actually really like how he shows the difference in foot work between Bagua and Wing Chun. I was reminded of Tiffany van Soest and Anissa Meksen, who are sort of arch rivals in Glory Kickboxing, and both of them are movement fighters who like to work angles, and both of them are currently fighing under Kicboxing rules but having both come from a Muay Thai background, although Tiffany has additionally also done Karate so she has some spinning attacks and some stance switching, etc, and she really knows how to make her spinning back kick work because of how she sets it up and times it...it finds the liver about 70 or more percent of the time :). I think there is a place for open hand sparring, because on the street we're most likely not going to wear gloves, and your friend with the Bagua background has shown me something i would like to learn :)
I'm here to read angry comments from Wing Chun defenders.
As a Wing Chun practitioner, good luck with that. I like Pa Kua Chang, too. Each art has its place.
Chubby Huang I actually want too see real fighters on this channel ...I know street fighters that would destroy both of those pretenders..
Awesome analysis and conclusion! The answer is that there is not just one answer.
Mantis boxer here. We use open hand strikes primarily to open up the "softer targets" such as liver, solar plexus and stomach. Those strikes are fists. Balance is everything in martial arts. Open hand AND fists. Most techniques are useful in CERTAIN circumstances.
Side note, our objective in my school is to get to a grappling position to affect takedowns and locks, so strikes aren't our only method. Pure striking arts might have a different approach, but I've found open hand strikes to open doors for more destructive strikes extremely effective
This one time I had a mock sparring session with my uncle who had about two years wing chun experience, and myself with probably about 6 months to a year of boxing. I had a very difficult time landing any punches. He was always able to block most of what I threw at him. Granted his arms are a good bit longer than mine and my boxing skills were beginner level so I am sure that had a lot to do with it, but regardless it made me think.
Good video. I think it would be cool to see a video of you guys sparring, one guy open handed vs another with mma gloves.
Open handed strikes are useful because there's less risk of breaking your hand, if you aim at the skull. Instead, the body should be punched. Many traditional MA's used this method, as well as traditional boxing before the Queensberry rules and introduction of gloves.
However, yes, i love when you guys do this kind of experiment. You're insightful, respectful and curious. Keep up the good work!
As a Kung fu nerd I can say that I've always thought that WC comes from Ba Gua, not from Shaolin. Not that it's important but I loved the the observation at about 3:10. Great video as always Mr. Ramsey 👏
I think it comes from both that and hsing i. If you look at the fushan wooden dummy and some of the forms you see a lot of ba gua stepping but the strikes and straight line work is more hsing i. Seems like the someone took the circular and linier and tried to mix them.
WC is much older than BaGua
Wing Chun likely comes from an already established, long history of Southern boxing traditions rather than _anything_ Northern stuff. The two regions had almost no contact to speak of in terms of empty hand fighting until very late 19th century.
@@Veepee92 the origin of wing chun are not really clear. From what I have read and heard is most likely derived from white crane which is essentially a counter fighting art. I have heard that karate has been deeply influenced by white crane, expecially Goju-ryu. Its founder learned the art from Hogaonna Kanryo which trained in White Crane in fujian
@@shiyongshuomingshu We don't know what Goju-ryu influencer Higaonna learnt in China, but we know for sure that it wasn't White Crane. There is no credible evidence to support any other proposition.
The history of Wing Chun is also rather unclear and the Crane influence is extremely hypothetical and AFAIK difficult to prove correct.
I'd like to add also that the increased control with the grabbing transitions very nicely into elbows.
good video. I think, however, that when discussing an open fist, it is worth mentioning that many traditional schools also recommended hardening hands what changes a lot. I had the opportunity to meet people from kung fu environments who spent some time on iron palm (for some reason) and it was a completely different story.
I love how open minded you are, traditional karate katas, are 100% effective, but not if you do katas over and over again, instead you should drill grappling techniques from kata with live resisting opponent
Well, open hand sparing is a very good exercise from the perspective of guessing your opponent's next move, blocking, attacking, and so on. From a pure striking perspective not so much as Nils pointed out, but each exercise has it's purpose in developing a more complete athlete/fighter. As you can see Linji is quite intimidating with his striking pace so if you move that to closed hand sparing he could do quite some damage.
A bit like I was saying in the previous video. The different styles of strikes have different things they are good for, so you just have to be aware of where and how you are going to strike and what options you have.
Even if you don't use open hand to knock out, as shown with Nils getting knocked down, it didn't take much force from either of them to put Nils in a position that he couldn't recover from without falling, and in a fight that can quickly be taken advantage of allowing for something like a mount then move in for a ground and pound.
Open hand Sparring is something I personally enjoy a lot because:
1- There is less risk of injuring your sparring partner, therefore
2- You can spar longer and more often with less gear.
3- Parring, framming, traping and pushing is the grapple aspect of pugilism people forget that exist, actually shows up and practicing it with gloves is awefull (in this topic bare knuckle has an upper hand).
4- I forces you to be accurate and fast, more in defense than in offense because a slap, a grab or a push have the same set up so it gets trickyer to deflect and, although easier to block is harder to see predict where is gonna land because
5- Its easier to faint, so whoever has a hard time doing feints or reading them will get better at it eventually.
6- Since it has a 1/10 of the power of a punch and maybe 1/5 of a hammerfist, no matter how strong your arms and sholders are it forces you to put your body in each and every blow, specially body shots, so you have to strike from posture.
Just personal opinion, but coach Dewey, was this a no kick sparring session? I mean, there was grapple but no kicks and take downs? I don't get it '-'
So close to 100k subs man congrats man get that 100k Plaque
Great video ramsey! Wanted to point out that Lynji seems to be very open to takedowns. I am not sure why though. Is it his stance or posture or smth? He has that tma stick chest out and chin up in the air so it could be that affects his balance? What are your thoughts on this?
μαριος Καπετανοπουλος it looks that way, but he’s not that easy to take down because of his footwork.
thanks for the thoughts. cool to see you guys playing with different ideas.
side note: I got a sport Karate gear ad on your video. HAHAHAHAHAHA
Fascinating! I did FMA for a few years where the trainer had a strong Southern Praying Mantis background, and seeing experiments like this make me realise it wasn't a waste! More experiments into this, please! Especially considering you're in China!
I know you were excluding kicks from your sparring, but that push technique towards the end of the video looks like a great setup for a head kick! Maybe even one to the leg to take them more off balance.
I like how fresh Linji looked the whole time, i didn't see him get gassed :)
That stuff about shutting you down while you were trying to guard is the basic idea about chi sao: maintaining forward pressure, controlling opponents limbs and searching for an opening to strike. There are other things you can do as well, for instance instead of waiting for the opponent to open up, you can just keep pressing into his guard with your palm and simultaneously roll you elbow around it.
Also, when it comes to palm strikes you have to actually practice them, not go straight into sparring. There's a lot more wrist mechanics going on, and you have to understand how it all works.
Also, fantastic video, thank you very much! TMA's get a lot of flak because people think they're merely antiquated forms of training, but there are elements that are lost when you put on gloves. The ideal way to train would be to somehow keep the core aspects of a TMA, but also maintain a sense of pressure and realism.
Very nice video. It is good to see you testing techniques of traditional kung fu in a constructive environment, with constructive criticism.
Great video with a lot of good information! I hope to see more of Linji on your chanel in the future, he seem like a intresting guy :)
A thought... you compare using openhanded strikes with strikes using gloves. The people who argue that palmstrikes are better for self-defence compare with punching using a bare fist. I understand if you don't want to hit eachother with bare fists but I want to point out that this i a small flaw in your comparison.
It was still a really good video though! Keep up the good work Ramsey!
Check out Bass Rutten's open palm strike!..its deavastating!
Open hands striking is powerful if you use palm heels and knife hands to the appropriate targets. Other than that, you're ineffectually slapping (though certain slaps, say, to the ears, can work). One of the main reason to hold your hands in fists is to keep your fingers from being grabbed, snagged, or jammed. Bare-knuckle training can teach appropriate targets for the knuckles, as well as train you to be more accurate and avoid areas that could damage your knuckles. Also, fists can also mean hammer blows and fore-arm slams.
Excelent video! I really like all the discussion that you work out in these videos. I started training wing chung around three or four years ago, and around a yer ago I started training muay thai / kickboxing, and it's really interesting the differences that appear when you put the gloves on. The work as a shield a lot. Some months ago I started thinking it this way: the gloves work as a knight shield, so you can put them between the incoming damage and you, and you will be "fine" as them cover a big quantity of space. The bare hands instead can be seen (in wing chun at least) as two sword, so you can really use them to cover you, but you can use them to trap the danger far away from you. So I started thinking of wing chun's guard more as a dinamic protection than a shield.
Also greetings from Argentina!
Big salute to Lindsey for showing a "soft art" in an MMA gym. It's pretty awesome that if you want to test an obscure form of martial arts you're in totally the right place. Try even getting a look at Ba Gua or Xing Yi in Scotland - People claim to know them but rarely do.
As a lifelong martial artist (Shuri Ryu/ Pa Qua 40+yrs) I see y'alls points. Like anything else, without proper conditioning and good practice open hand techniques have exactly all the weaknesses mentioned. However, conditioned and trained open hand techniques are very effective in real world use. Additionally, not just the hands but forearms (all sides), elbows, finger/tips, knuckles, palms, shoulders, and all the leg as well are conditioned for either attack or defense contact.
Sport vs street are totally different obviously so training for self defense should be geared to purpose.
Some can break ribs with just finger tips. I once saw a Tai Chi practitioner crush concrete with just an forearm as if it was a fly swat, wearing silk that wasn't even scratched, she was rather tiny.
I like your messages; train, practice, be smart in your attitudes, conditioning. Another good video. Thanks for the post.
Thank you for the practical application of BAGUA. As a practitioner of a different martial arts and co-developer of a martial system you can use bagua as an opening to enter into what we call turning the corner when I turn the corner on you I will get behind you and I'm going to end the fight I will snap your neck and be on my way. Don't have time to stand there and play with your opponent.
Bagua can also be used very effectively and a multiple opponents scenario.. you really don't want to get caught in the middle of a multiple attack which is to say caught in the middle of the fog of War keep moving still alive thank you for your time
i love Linji's fighting stances and guard
Hi Ramsey , have been enjoying your videos over the last year...and your sensible approach ...Three questions please : 1. How does a Mormon Missionary in South America gravitate to being a professional fighter and coach ? Have you eschewed all your earlier Christian learnings ? 2. What is your view of Yi Quan from Wang Zhang Zhai...and practiced by Yoa Chengrong up in Beijing ? 3 How did you end up opening a Gym in Shanghai ....was it to bring MMA to China ? Keep up the good work , Thanks & Cheers Martin
Hey Ramsey, whats your opinion on Bass Rutten's palm strikes, using the bone rather than the actual palm? He knocked people out with that punch back in Pancrase. Do you find that a valid technique or is it just down to Bass being Bass?
The palm is made of bones. I’m not sure what you mean.
@@RamseyDewey I was a little unclear so im not surprised you arent sure what i meant.. I looked up Ruttens video of his palm strike technique. And i have no idea why i spelled his name with two S's before haha...
ua-cam.com/video/Gm0SyEqc7ns/v-deo.html
I had this debate with a youtuber... The "open hand vs closed fist" debate... Me being a closed fist advocate, i said open hand, you have a high risk of breaking your fingers... His reply was "you can hurt your hands with your fist closed also"... Which i agreed and hammered home my final point.. "That is true but, the difference is, a closed fist will put your opponent down, much more often than open hands"
Using the heel of the palm in an open hand strike won't hurt your fingers but if done or landed incorrectly can break your wrist. I agree that a swollen nuckle is much better to deal with.
@@christophermartin2544 accuracy is what will hurt your fingers which in a fight, your opponent doesn't stay still
I would love it if someone combined Wing Chun hand trapping into Wrestling. I could see some interesting collar tie setups and arm drags and duck under shots being set up with hand sticking slipping and trapping. Even some good judo throws as well.