yeah, but with clever techniques and optimizations, we were able to get an average COP of 2.7 Of course, it cannot compare with direct air conditioning - thermodynamics wouldn't allow it but, You have excess solar during the day in CA and cheaper electricity during nighttime.
APD, good work. I'd like to let you know a few challenges and opportunities you didn't encompass. That block of ice...how do you melt it evenly when its a complete block? for this reason you won't be able to have a 4000L solid block of ice. Also, you've left out the refrigerants in the chiller system used to create the ice. That being said, you have the concept of peak shifting down well. Feel free to reach out with any questions and check out our Ice Energy Ice Bear system. It pretty much is what you are describing but instead of a glycol loop we utilize standard refrigerant and target small scale. Message with any questions.
I think you've underestimated the comparison between a Lead Acid battery and an Ice Battery. The Ice Battery can been charged/discharged literally millions of times and utilises 100% of the stored energy. The Lead Acid battery is rated at around 1000 cycles (optimistic), but with only 50% of the energy utilised. Let's not forget the cost difference between each technology and the complete opposite environmental impacts each has.
I love the idea of an ice battery, using the opposite of that for heating in the winter. The ground here 8 feet down is about 5-8'C, but freezing it adds additional cooling properties!! ua-cam.com/video/nPaZIf7ST6k/v-deo.html
Liked the video very much, Thank you. One thing you missed out is the COP of an air-conditioning system. COP of 2 means we need 1 joule of electrical energy to remove 2 joules of heat from a room. So need to consider that when comparing with electrical batteries.
Energy density of ice storage is 344 kJ/kg + 4.25*5 kJ/kg = 365 kJ/kg thermal = 365 MJ/m3 thermal Energy density of Li-Ion battery is 720 kJ/kg -> 1440 kJ/L -> 1440 MJ/m3 HOWEVER, assuming a COP of 4 for the chiller, equivalent electric energy storage of ice drop by a factor of 4 to 90 MJ/m3. This means Li-Ion is 10 times more energy-dense than ice thermal storage. For lead-acid, it is about 5 times more energy-dense than ice thermal storage. You're right they're equivalent if you don't factor in the form of the energy.
You have conveniently left out all the losses in the "chiller" system (presumably vapor compression refrigeration) that freezes the water as well as completely leaving out the mechanism by which you would directly convert melting ice into electrical energy (as well as _those_ losses) as it melts. The title suggests that there is such a thing as a literal "ice battery" that produces electricity. I know of no such thing. This thermal storage concept has been used in limited situations and was intended to help equalize day/night grid loads created by AIR CONDITIONING systems only, by freezing water into ice at night during off-peak hours and during the day utilizing that ice to cool the bulding. Even ignoring those glaring omissions and misunderstandings, in order to use this in the solar power scenario that you described, that system would need to be overdesigned to have capacity to meet not only all current demand but ALSO have enough excess capacity to run the refrigeration equipment to freeze the ice - that's quite a tall order. You describe this like it's an electrically based system, but it is NOT. This is a haphazard mix of apples to oranges comparisons, all based on an obvious misunderstanding of the core concept and glosses over or totally omits several _critical_ design details. I don't think I'd call any of this "low-hanging fruit" by any stretch of the imagination. Trying to equate the electrical storage capacity of a lead acid battery to that of a thermal system intended to be used only for for air conditioning is irresponsible at best. This is why people have become so stupid these days - because they are inundated on a daily basis with wholly inaccurate and/or misleading, purely speculative information.
BluntForceTrauma lmao somebody hasn’t learned about Tesla’s turbine yet. 😂😂😂 that’s okay you’ll find out soon enough that thermal energy can be used to nearly directly store energy as heat to vaporize water and to directly turn a turbine and produce electricity. And nooo it does not have to be dry steam or extremely hot steam. The Tesla turbine can handle wet steam because it doesn’t have any of the issues cavitation brings to propped turbines.
And you’ve completely ignored the capabilities of Thermoelectric generators. Even with their low efficiencies of about 20-30% you still have about 60kwh of direct electricity that can be gotten out of a block of ice that big..... you, sir are the epitome of what’s so stupid about some people today. YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING AND ARE WILLING TO PUT OTHERS DOWN TO PROVE HOW MUCH YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING. And by proxy prove how much YOU DON’T ACTUALLY KNOW.
it is super inefficient as you have to freeze the water in the first place and you have to convert the thermal energy into electricity. Lookup "Pumped Heat Electrical Storage (PHES)" for something that can actually work.
For everyone on here saying “this isn’t a battery because you can use it to make electricity....” 🙄🙄🙄. The Tesla turbine can more then do this. ua-cam.com/video/JvRCB_HhseY/v-deo.html
You showed how much energy can be extracted from 4000 liters of ice. What do you propose to use this energy for? You are just telling part of the story. If I had plenty of solar energy I wouldn't bother to make ice in the first place. I would use it to cool my building directly.
The efficiency of the ice maker is the Achilles heel of this idea.
yeah, but with clever techniques and optimizations, we were able to get an average COP of 2.7
Of course, it cannot compare with direct air conditioning - thermodynamics wouldn't allow it but, You have excess solar during the day in CA and cheaper electricity during nighttime.
APD, good work. I'd like to let you know a few challenges and opportunities you didn't encompass. That block of ice...how do you melt it evenly when its a complete block? for this reason you won't be able to have a 4000L solid block of ice. Also, you've left out the refrigerants in the chiller system used to create the ice. That being said, you have the concept of peak shifting down well. Feel free to reach out with any questions and check out our Ice Energy Ice Bear system. It pretty much is what you are describing but instead of a glycol loop we utilize standard refrigerant and target small scale. Message with any questions.
I think you've underestimated the comparison between a Lead Acid battery and an Ice Battery. The Ice Battery can been charged/discharged literally millions of times and utilises 100% of the stored energy. The Lead Acid battery is rated at around 1000 cycles (optimistic), but with only 50% of the energy utilised. Let's not forget the cost difference between each technology and the complete opposite environmental impacts each has.
Spot on!
you did an amazing calculation, loved it.
Commercially available PV pannels are at best 22% efficient and the chiller will only compound the losses.
I love the idea of an ice battery, using the opposite of that for heating in the winter. The ground here 8 feet down is about 5-8'C, but freezing it adds additional cooling properties!! ua-cam.com/video/nPaZIf7ST6k/v-deo.html
Liked the video very much, Thank you. One thing you missed out is the COP of an air-conditioning system. COP of 2 means we need 1 joule of electrical energy to remove 2 joules of heat from a room. So need to consider that when comparing with electrical batteries.
i realize I am kind of randomly asking but does anybody know a good place to watch newly released movies online?
@Konnor Colten flixportal :D
@Benjamin Azariah thanks, I went there and it seems like they got a lot of movies there :D I appreciate it!
@Konnor Colten Glad I could help =)
Energy density of ice storage is 344 kJ/kg + 4.25*5 kJ/kg = 365 kJ/kg thermal = 365 MJ/m3 thermal
Energy density of Li-Ion battery is 720 kJ/kg -> 1440 kJ/L -> 1440 MJ/m3
HOWEVER, assuming a COP of 4 for the chiller, equivalent electric energy storage of ice drop by a factor of 4 to 90 MJ/m3.
This means Li-Ion is 10 times more energy-dense than ice thermal storage.
For lead-acid, it is about 5 times more energy-dense than ice thermal storage.
You're right they're equivalent if you don't factor in the form of the energy.
Would love to add a Stirling engine in between that hot and cold water and see what sort of power you could get out
I've been looking for this thank you!
You have conveniently left out all the losses in the "chiller" system (presumably vapor compression refrigeration) that freezes the water as well as completely leaving out the mechanism by which you would directly convert melting ice into electrical energy (as well as _those_ losses) as it melts. The title suggests that there is such a thing as a literal "ice battery" that produces electricity. I know of no such thing. This thermal storage concept has been used in limited situations and was intended to help equalize day/night grid loads created by AIR CONDITIONING systems only, by freezing water into ice at night during off-peak hours and during the day utilizing that ice to cool the bulding. Even ignoring those glaring omissions and misunderstandings, in order to use this in the solar power scenario that you described, that system would need to be overdesigned to have capacity to meet not only all current demand but ALSO have enough excess capacity to run the refrigeration equipment to freeze the ice - that's quite a tall order. You describe this like it's an electrically based system, but it is NOT.
This is a haphazard mix of apples to oranges comparisons, all based on an obvious misunderstanding of the core concept and glosses over or totally omits several _critical_ design details. I don't think I'd call any of this "low-hanging fruit" by any stretch of the imagination.
Trying to equate the electrical storage capacity of a lead acid battery to that of a thermal system intended to be used only for for air conditioning is irresponsible at best. This is why people have become so stupid these days - because they are inundated on a daily basis with wholly inaccurate and/or misleading, purely speculative information.
BluntForceTrauma lmao somebody hasn’t learned about Tesla’s turbine yet. 😂😂😂 that’s okay you’ll find out soon enough that thermal energy can be used to nearly directly store energy as heat to vaporize water and to directly turn a turbine and produce electricity. And nooo it does not have to be dry steam or extremely hot steam. The Tesla turbine can handle wet steam because it doesn’t have any of the issues cavitation brings to propped turbines.
ua-cam.com/video/JvRCB_HhseY/v-deo.html
And you’ve completely ignored the capabilities of Thermoelectric generators. Even with their low efficiencies of about 20-30% you still have about 60kwh of direct electricity that can be gotten out of a block of ice that big..... you, sir are the epitome of what’s so stupid about some people today. YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING AND ARE WILLING TO PUT OTHERS DOWN TO PROVE HOW MUCH YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING. And by proxy prove how much YOU DON’T ACTUALLY KNOW.
Refrigerators use the same principle right?
Water is the best energy storage megdium.The nature did it long time before us
excellent I hope more people use this system great video.
it is super inefficient as you have to freeze the water in the first place and you have to convert the thermal energy into electricity. Lookup "Pumped Heat Electrical Storage (PHES)" for something that can actually work.
For everyone on here saying “this isn’t a battery because you can use it to make electricity....” 🙄🙄🙄.
The Tesla turbine can more then do this.
ua-cam.com/video/JvRCB_HhseY/v-deo.html
does anyone else get 90kwh for 250 gallons? I failed every math class ive taken..
roughly. close enough.
You showed how much energy can be extracted from 4000 liters of ice. What do you propose to use this energy for? You are just telling part of the story. If I had plenty of solar energy I wouldn't bother to make ice in the first place. I would use it to cool my building directly.
ua-cam.com/video/JvRCB_HhseY/v-deo.html
Your welcome