Geothermal ground source heat pumps. Heating your home from your own back yard!
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2020
- Geothermal energy could be potentially transformational for our power grids, as we saw in our last video. But you and I can also get in on the act by drawing our own domestic heating from beneath our gardens (or communal gardens if you live in an apartment block). The technology is called a Ground Source Heat Pump. They've been around for a while but they are growing very quickly in popularity and may prove to be one of the lynch pins in helping us get to carbon neutrality by 2050.
Visit ISO Energy for advice on all UK renewable technology installations :
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And read their PDF all about Geothermal Heat Pumps
www.isoenergy.co.uk/ground-so...
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Research links
Ground Source Heat Pump Association website
www.gshp.org.uk
Global Market Insights
www.gminsights.com/pressrelea...
Molly Lempriere Article
www.current-news.co.uk/blogs/...
Fully Charged
• Can you HEAT & POWER a...
UK Committee on Climate Change
www.theccc.org.uk/
UK Government -
RHI Calculatorrenewable-heat-calculator.ser... Homes Grantwww.gov.uk/guidance/apply-for...
New York - NYSERDA
www.nyserda.ny.gov/
US EPA
www.epa.gov/rhc/geothermal-he...
Heat pump inverters explainedwww.thermalearth.co.uk/blog/a...
Master Therm Heat Pumps
www.thermalearth.co.uk/conten...
London School of Economics article on renewable subsidies
www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitu...
VOX article on fossil fuel subsidieswww.vox.com/2019/5/17/1862474...
www.vox.com/2019/5/17/1862474...
#geothermalenergy #climateemergency #actnow
Here in Finland heat pumps are very common and it is a no-brainer when building new houses. We also use central heating, my apartment is heated partly by the local metal industry, capturing their waste heat to low pressure steam, which is then piped to the town and used for heating. Also, trash burning is used for this, it is high flow, high temperature furnaces using monoxide recycling and carbon scrubbing. It is hot enough to return plastic etc back to their most basic elements and compounds, it is quite clean process, most of it is CO2, water and nitrogen. Trash is separated here so what ends in the trash burners is single use plastic, cardboard that is soiled or unsuitable for recycling, food packaging and other such household waste that would end up in landfills.
And because these are common, also prices are way more reasonable. Starting under 15k€ for 6kw system with drilled geothermal well that heats typical house most of the year. Systems are not normally built for extreme -30c temperatures, but there is additional electric heating for lowest temperatures and also as a backup.
My point made. "WE also use central heating..." That is the actual 'no brainer' right there.
Heat pumps are most of the time a good solution. Especially if they are connected to a heat source where they can tap into access or waste heat. Otherwise, they can also create problems - because if it is cold in one house in the area, chances are it is cold in the whole region, which means that suddenly all the installed heat pumps are starting to work and pull electricity out of the grid at the very same time - creating a peak demand which will either bring instability into the grid or then have the energy provider to adjust the energy supply to the new and higher peak demands which are extremely expensive. Heat pumps with access to a heat sink or thermal storage are very good though.
@@ulrichsuter3548 While I'm not disagreeing with your points as that's entirely possible, this concern about the grid and heat pumps kicking on at the same time "only" assumes that every house with a heat pump in this hypothetical cold region is:
1. Set to the same temp. (Lets say for example 68F / 20C)
2. Built exactly the same to have the same heat loss and needed head load to keep warm (i.e. same size heat pump system and house insulation).
3. Has the same (or lack there of) natural or man-made object(s) to cast shadows on the house. (Sun not hitting the house and warming it up because of trees, mountains, other buildings, etc)
4. In the same orientation (like the front of the house face south). So the same areas and features of the houses (like windows) are facing the sun (A wall without windows wont let as much infra-red heat radiation from the sun come into the house as wall with windows).
Now, we could make our hypothetical region at night time instead of during the day to exclude point 3 and 4 (as the sun does have an effect on when and how long a heat pump will run) but just the first 2 points alone.... will prevent all heat pumps turning on at the same time in the same weather conditions.
So a lot of things would have to "go right" for that to happen. Would the grid see an up tick in energy demand? Sure. Although just factoring just the few points above (there's probably more thing that could be added or even current points can be expanded upon, im just too lazy to think/google those out), the energy demand increase should rise somewhat and then stay fairly flat instead of spiking (creating instability) as different houses heat pumps should be coming online and offline at different times (due to differences between each house).
What I would guess can cause bigger grid instability is not stuff like house heating or cooling (as grid operators can usually predict the weather day's in advance) but more of cultural habits and trends that can change on the fly. Stuff like most Americans getting home from work between 4PM to 6PM and starting to cook dinner or the Brits starting their electric kettles for tea during (and after) a TV sports game en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup
@@warmon6 - thank you for your reply. Maybe I was not as precise here that my comment was more about existing buildings - because it is the existing buildings that demonstrate the biggest issue regarding total energy consumption.
#1 and #2. The grid instabilities and additional peak demands are not only short therm peaks but what if there is a cold period of -20'c for about two weeks? Then, regardless of any set temperatures, all heat pumps kick in at some point creating a higher demand. Existing buildings and their heat demand are much cruder and not as individual as you mention. They simply need energy at the same time (not the very same second, but minutes and hours).
#3 I assume you refer to solar architecture here. Again - existing buildings are not as sophisticated as you mention and that this point would have big of an impact.
#4 The same issue applies here - old or existing buildings have most likely a higher net heat loss with their windows since windows are by far the weakest point in the building envelope. In cold temperature zones, there is ZERO energy gain overall with windows facing south (existing buildings with old windows). Why? Because the season when it's cold is also the season when days are short and dark. The Nordics get no sun for weeks during winter in some regions because of short days and clouds. A window here - regardless its direction it faces merely gives you a net energy loss. Also in your example one would need thermal mass behind the window that can heat up and store the heat inside
The "cultural" issues like cooking, and boiling tea at the same time are no issue for a grid because they are predictable.
The reason why modern upgrades to existing buildings and networks (grids and micro-grids) need a lot of energy storage capacity is the fact that there will be a huge shift towards "everything will be electric". Cars, mobility, phones, computers etc.
I don't need to google much of the basic stuff here - I studied green buildings and am working in the industry for more than 20 years.
I installed one of these systems 25 years ago. I like the bore hole method because in the UK there are pipes and other forgotten obstacles that may cause problems. I think this system works best with under or in floor heating. In a floor system, the water temperature is a low 27deg C rather than 70ish for a radiator system. So, the heat pump doesn't have to work as hard and is more efficient.
Also, ones floor is a massive heat storage system; typically the floor is only a degree or two above the air temperature required. So in effect, if the temperature in your room falls by two degrees the output from the floor effectively doubles.
Then there is "radiant heat". With under floor heating the AIR temperature can be, say 19 but feel a comfortable 22 / 23. This is due to your receiving radiant heat from the floor. (Not BS, There is in fact a very long equation quantifying this)
This works best with new build. On new build the extra cost of floor heating is minimal. Also, new build is 0 vat rated.
Unfortunately, underfloor is more expensive to install for existing builds and harder to maintain (access is problematic with floor coverings and floor boards). I'm all for saving energy, but the solutions need to be practical.
A problem with floor heating in comparison to radiators are respons time. Modern radiators contain little water and can because of that react quick to other internal heating source. That saves energy to!
We had a old heat pump that couldn't produce hot enough water for the radiators so we exchanged som radiators and moved other around. That hade a big impact on the efficiency! 😊And we were able to heat up the house without auxiliary heater from previous - 11 C to - 25 C.
@@Jay...777 I tend to agree, but first you have to get buy in and it has to be commercially viable for as many as possible. The last part is tricky. For new builds there is still an increase in costs, so the question becomes 'who pays for that?' Answering that question in the right way will allow new builds to be mandated with these systems, we can learn from Europe but remember what's right for other countries might not be for the UK.
@@Jay...777 it is due to the low heat transfer rate in the floor combined with more mass that store a lot of energy that sipper out over a long period of time.
If you have outdoor ambient temperatur meter in your heating system i recommend you to try out moving it in to a place with morning sun. It gives the system a cheap weather forecast regulator that cut the heating power if is sunny. If the sun goes the heating start again. It works well for radiator. Save up to 10% energy! 😊
If you have a ground source heat pump or similar make sure that the setting for auxiliary power to kick in are set to kick in with a long delay. Else I have experience that the system sense a quick high power demand increase when sun goes.
It is always a pleasure to listen to a guy who knows how to explain things and speaks very good english…! Thank you very much.
I installed a geothermal ground source heat pump when I built my house back in 2002. I live in southern Minnesota around the 44 degree north latitude, so we have cold winters and and hot summers (typical temperature range from -30C to +40C). The system had three horizontal averaging 4 meters underground. It now only has two ground loops due to ground settle from the construction which pinched off one of the loops making it unusable. Installing three ground loops was intentional for redundancy and despite the loss of one of the loops, the system still keeps my house warm and cool throughout the year. If I lost another ground loop, the remaining ground loop would continue to help reduce my energy costs by supplementing the electric heating and cooling portions of the system. The approximate cost of the system was around $11,000 US dollars in 2002. Another advantage the system, a lot less maintenance and costs. Even the air filters are washable and never need replacing. I highly recommend systems like this to everyone in the mid to high latitudes.
In MN too. Do you have firm you recommend to get quote from?
@@mrbizi5652 I used a local dealer who recommended the Hydron Module system for my home (300 square meters). I liked all its features, most notably the all stainless steel construction, variable speed fan, and overall energy efficiency. Other then the collapsed ground loop (which I installed myself), the Hydron Module HVAC system has been trouble free since it was installed with no signs that there are any issues. I'm sure it will eventually have problems (nothing lasts forever), but I don't expect any major problems with getting it repaired.
@@VallisChristianus In MN...doesn't use freedom units for house size...YOU ARE HIGHLY SUS!
HE'S THE IMPOSTER!
@@TheGuruStud Are you implying my choice of units should be controlled by an authoritarian government? I choose metric because it makes more sense to me. That is what freedom is all about. My choice.
@@VallisChristianus pretty sure it's a joke....
I just had Geothermal installed this last may. Works great. Unfortunately no previous energy bills to compare to at my new house. My old house was 1000sqft, + full basement. Bills between electric & natural gas was about $240 every month on budget. $2880 a yr. Current house 1500sq ft+ full basement. ALL ELECTRIC, no gas stove or heat since geothermal. my bills look like this, $60, $63, $83, $85, and one reading which was delayed 3 days and extremely warm month was $128. Which places 5 months of energy around $420... My next 7 bills would have to average $350+ a month to compare to my smaller home with natural gas.
Very surprised with efficiency so far, Im literally heating & cooling double the space.
propane or continued fuel oil was my only other options. Natural gas runs nearby on my property, but some unknown existing land contract was already in place.
13k is cost for geothermal after tax credit of 26% this yr. In the U.S. otherwise without the credit would of been 17,000. Worth noting propane furnace,AC/heatpump started at 8700 for mid performance but did not include $3000-4000 for propane & propane tank. If I opted for higher end unit it would cost 12,700+ 3-4k, which is ideal because efficiency of 98% is better than 92-96%, you're wasting propane long term to not pay for a higher end unit, geo however proved to be cost effective and most efficient.
Jeez, these videos are a breath of fresh air that cheer me up.
Because you’ve been programmed to believe the world is going to end from greenhouse gasses. But it’s really just a big lie for the purpose of leftists to change the society to a system where they are the controllers of your lives - just like an overbearing mother would.
@@thomaspayne6866 I've been watching science documentaries since the 80's about climate change. That's 40yrs. You think it's all part of a 'leftist' conspiracy to install a mothering overlord? That seems pretty warped thinking to me, but go ahead, show me the evidence that scientists are part of a cabal to turn us all into drones over the last 4 decades. Seriously.
@@thomaspayne6866 how does using energy produced by your own land rather than that from energy corporations further this sinister agenda you’ve imagined?
@@thomaspayne6866 surprising that your UA-cam bubble allows you to see factual content like this on your feed. You can go back to watching ancient aliens and building your bunker now. Don't forget to contribute to trumps legal defence when he comes calling!
Burning trash a breath of fresh air? LOL. Don't get too reassured, geothermal isn't going to make your fears go away, it's adding to climate change just like that other fantasy solution, nuclear. Don't do critical thinking?
We had heard of these systems for years. Went from Natural gas heating/water heating with electric cooling to geothermal (heating/cooling/water heating) 3 years ago and love it. We used a new way of installing laterally that also does not tear up the landscaping (turns out the pros have been doing this for years installing conduit under roads). Saved us much money on the install. We increased our PV cells to handle the small additional electric load so we are net zero + pollution free....and it REALLY DOES SAVE MONEY.
Is this lateral installation using directional boring? Like what the gas company uses to install pipe?
Yes, this is exactly what we used, and for these boring guys, it's no big deal because this is what they do all day long. P.S. We just went through a heat wave (116 degree days), and our unit just purred along like nothing at all.
I'm confident that another factor preventing more geothermal installation, or any other new technology, is the prevalence of house flipping.
They largely aren't interested in "payback time."
As always, such a clearly told message on a topic that should be common sense for consumers and policymakers alike. Thanks Dave !
Anything but commonsense, fantasy nonsense actually. Geothermal is partly the primordial from when the Earth was formed and partly generated from within the Earth's crust from the decay of mildly radioactive elements, it is additional to the already heating planet.
Yep. It's a common sense for anyone that wants to save money. Of course, you'd also be reducing the profit of fossil-fuel merchants and middle-men, who work hard to poison opinions and lobby governments to reduce the rate of this type of thing taking hold.
Nice video 👍
I am an HVAC engineer in South Africa 🇿🇦 and we are currently working on a design for a heat pump that has a COP (coefficient of performance) of 12
Through the simply leveraging of physics
That's remarkable - is it really possible? Care to explain how you get to twice as much as current top performers. That sounds like it should be beyond what thermodynamics will let you do in practice.
Now that's teasing. :-) Love to know more...
. Wookey
Okay so lets go over some general points here
1:) proof of concept (lab conditions)
The idea is just to get a greater fraction of the energy input to come from ambient heat energy and lesser energy fraction from electrical input, the proof of concept that shows that it is technically possible to get to 100% heat energy input and 0% electrical input can be demonstrated with a sterling engine
About 0.2 watts of energy can be extracted from the system running ontop of a full mug of fresh black coffee
Cop of the system is infinite
2:) some physics can be leveraged in the system by running the desaturated compressed condensed liquid through an adiabatic decompression turbine instead of a decompression valve which wastes the potential energy, the turbine spins a generator coil that “grid-feeds” back to the compressor
We also put the saturated evaporated gas through an internal heat exchanger that has LP saturated gas on one side (5 ° C in 35°C out) and desaturated compressed gas( liquid) on the other side of the hx (55°C in 35°C out)
This causes the cold side to get colder and the hot side to get hotter, but the intake gas to the compressor is hotter and the out take liquid to the evaporator is colder and therefore you need a bigger evaporator coil and a smaller compressor, with good computer control we are already at COP 9.8
16 other innovations are being worked on to drop power input and increase power output,
The earth’s atmosphere works entirely fueled by heat energy only, why can’t a heat pump... heat IS energy
it’s not magic it’s just physics
@@johannesjacobs5252 That's really interesting - thanks for the explanation. I always hated thermodynamics, and it was over 30 years ago now so some of those details are over my head, but it all sounds reasonable. Good luck. Presumably everyone uses a valve rather than a turbine (with energy recovery) because it's cheaper, and I suppose zero maintenance? What gas are you using? High GWP gases give you a different set of issues. I'd like to see a more in-depth discussion of this stuff so I had a fighting chance of understanding the layout and potential. But 10 rather than 5 or 6 is already well worth having.
@@johannesjacobs5252 This looks like a good place to start reading: industrialheatpumps.nl/en/how_it_works/cop_heat_pump/
I see that a COPh of 12 or more is indeed entirely possible. You have prompted me to swot up :-)
I'm So Happy To Be Here In Your Channel
We just installed an air source heat pump furnace. It's about to have its first winter. One thing we already have enjoyed, the electrostatic air filter. We run it in fan only mode to clean the wild fire smoke polluted air. Only symptomatic relief to climate change but still, we're grateful. Plus we're no longer burning a thing in our house so there's that too.
I hope the fire stays away from you and yours, it's a serious problem and there are no easy answers. In new construction the airtight houses with outdoor air exchange systems certainly would have an advantage in your circumstances. Good Luck
You mean idiotic forest practices and regulations. Forcing all the volunteers out by requireing 50000 certifications effectively making them full time firefighters but not paid, letting the fires burn, not doing proscribed burns before rainy season, not letting home owners clear brush/trees, not allowing the use of mechanized fire fighting equipment, making it near impossible for water bombers to be used unless in very specific instances.... NOt allowing loggers to go in and thin, not allowing loggers to go in and take out large swaths of diseased beetle trees... yea its "climate change"... Tons of fires all the time before the white man showed up, logged everything, suppressed fires for 100 years, and then in last 2 decades have decided to STOP logging and stop fires when they start... yea its "climate change".... What a crock
Here in U.S., a startup company named Dandelion has new drilling technology that is fast, and economically viable. It was a Google think-tank off shoot.
@@joannelennstrom4934 I knew it. Every time I buy something, there's a better less expensive version out the next day. But that's quite all right. I'm glad to have played a role in better less expensive solar panels, better less expensive electric vehicles, and better less expensive home heating appliances.
@@w8stral Ironically most of the fires in California and Washington were started by arsonists (mostly political ones too) but you won't hear that from the politicians claiming it's weather change.
I am a refrigerant technician and have built a homemade heatpump on my homebuilt solar catamaran, I use the seawater for heating the evaporator. 👍😅
So, it only heats when the sun is beating down?.
Or your use cooling also?
I’m assuming you using it for cooling? If so would be very interested to find out more. I’m living in Queensland Australia (having lived 11 years in the UK) - hot dry summer, warm winter. As an architect we regularly specified underfloor heating in the UK. On a new house we are doing now in Aus, I’m very interested in underfloor cooling (concrete slab and/or concrete walls) with maybe ground source heat pump. We’ll have below ground rain water harvesting tanks and I’m sort of interested if one can use this water (which should be cool) for thermal cooling? The problem, I can’t find anyone who can advise on this. The general response : what’s wrong with A/C, it’s cheap..... do you have some thoughts on this?
It heats up the boat in winter, the catamaran is made of 70 mm foam with Glasfiber laminate on both side and its really well Insulated,
For heating only, if I wanted cold air "ac" then I would use the sea water trough a califere "radiate" but now I use the heatpump to remove the heat from seawater and transfer it inside
@@aeasthouse316 what is your average outside temperature where you live all year.
Reminded me of an installation I did in a home at the end of the 1970s that was very effective, very easy, and very cheap. It was used mainly for cooling in hot months in a New Jersey home. Sunk a 4" diameter pvc tube below ground level to a depth of 6-7 feet with an elbow attached above ground that directed the pipe right through the wall into the rooms just above floor level. A small, noiseless fan was installed - similar to what is used in computers today - and a vent cover was placed on the interior wall opening that had vanes that could swivel to direct the airflow. The underground opening was covered with a fine-grain screen with a 2 - 3" layer of activated charcoal and another filter material was placed on top. What that was exactly I can not recall but it was similar to the fiber-filter material that was used in aquariums at the time - its thickness was ~3". A second filter was placed in the elbow, closer to the intake. I installed 3 tubes for the house which was about 1400 sq ft on the ground level. My set up was manually controlled, each fan having an on/off switch. The cost to run the fans over a year was negligible - less than $1 I think - but it reduced my reliance on air-conditioning units by more than 75%. Well worth the cost and time investment. It was still operating perfectly fine after 10 years. I like the design - easy to install with easy-to-obtain parts - and not connected up to any other system or grid. Flipped on the fan when it was hot; turned it off when not - usually ran for a couple of days at the hottest periods non-stop. The single drawback was the positioning of furniture - blocking the vent reduced efficiency a lot.
I used a water source heat pump for several years for a small rental apartment. It was in eastern North Carolina where the water table is very high. I washed down two wells to 50 or 60 ft depth, and used one to take water from and the other to return the water. It worked well for 4-6 months. Then I got a call from the tenant saying that there was a new pond in their back yard. The return well wouldn't take the water anymore. I swapped the flow direction and the well worked for about the same amount of time. The trick didn't work for long after that. I put in a third well for the discharge and finally used two of the 3 for discharge. It was becoming more of a hobby than an HVAC system, so I replaced it with a conventional gas furnace and electric AC. The heat pump itself was great and there was never a problem with its performance. It is a great system if your water is free and digging wells is cheap.
Thank you so much for your informative videos. You are educating me. I appreciate your objectivity and clarity. I am planning to build a home in the states in northern Michigan in the next few years, and you have helped give me direction with respect to the sustainable nature of the home I will build. Again, thanks, and keep the information flowing.
The most cost effective time to install geothermal for new development is during the subdivision development, when road ways, school yards, park areas can be utilized and the ground is generally all dug up anyway. It tends to support community based heating / cooling systems. This has been done in the US where the developers picked up the install costs and recuperated them by selling the heating back to the home owners over a period of time. I would love to see this concept built into all new developments and the municipalities could play a major role in making this happen.
Correct. I'd say 99% of UK housing it's difficult to dig a 2m deep/100m trench around the boundary. $ for $ just not worth the hassle. But there is economy at very large scales, and long time period
@@Froggability You need a HELL of a lot more than 100m of trench . Try HUNDREDS of meters in shallow depth Unless you live on acreage, forget it. At least you can do the digging yourself making it cost effective. The only real option for majority of people is 2 100m-->150m deep geothermal wells and this is sufficient for the average house. Spacing? 10m between wells. Big house: 4 wells. PS: I Live on acreage and we have 200m of trench and it is NOT enough and we have a SMALL very well insulated house. To compensate we now use our well as a heat source. Our weather here in Seattle is very close to most of the UK. Not as good as Southern England and not as bad as upper Scotland.
ua-cam.com/video/Uy0SEG36bEM/v-deo.html
just a relevant video
@@seanpalmer8472 Hey, this is my development!
Yes! Excited to learn about Darcy Solutions - new tech for geothermal for multi-family properties and new developments - coming from my home state, Minnesota U.S.
As always, thank you for an impressive content!
I installed a geothermal ground heat pump in 2008 that I combined with solar panels (not solar cells). When the solar influx is high, the system will first heat a 1m³ hot water storage up to 85°C then the system redirects the hot water into the bore hole to heat up the ground. I live on a small island off the Swedish west coast so the ground is pure granite. I was lucky not to have a lot of horizontal cracks in the ground, hence most of the energy is not transported away to my neighbors but stays around the bore hole. During the winter season, the heated ground makes the fluid returning to the pump from the ground much warmer than it would have been without the energy stored from the summer. Right now, the water coming up from the hole is at 18.2°C lowering the usage of electric energy to run the heat pump. During winter time, the solar panels normally is of no use here in Sweden but I feed the liquid coming up from the bore hole through an heat exchanger connected to the solar panels. If they are able to elevate the temperature of the fluid from the hole before entering the heat pump, that is also used.
During the summer, most of the electric energy needed to power the system comes from my ~40m² solar cells.
nice. that's an impressive setup.
As a precaution, have you had a Radon risk assessment carried out? If you are anywhere near Uppsala, Radonova carry out such assessments I understand.
We installed a geothermal system in our 1800 square foot house in Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada and it operated flawlessly for the 4 years we continues to live there before we moved. If you don't know, this location experiences minus 30 degrees Celsius regularly during the winter. The system handled it easily. Even more efficient cooking in summer where temps reach mid 30s.
Regina ftw!
We put in a horizontal loop for our house built in 2009 in Stettler, Alberta. Our two acre place allowed this. We have hot water assist. Our 1700 square foot home costs $246.00 per month (equalized payment program) for all our monthly energy costs, which is 100% electricity, no gas on the property. Neighbours with electricity and gas expenses for smaller homes as paying more. Lower costs for energy and leaving a smaller carbon footprint were our motivators to install this system. Would we do it again? Absolutely.
Very well explained Dave!
Will just clearify that the first choice when using geothermal system for cooling is to just pump the cold liquid from ground in to an indoor AC unit suitable for liquid. That reduces energy consumption to cool by 90% and very environmental friendly! ❄
Reversing the system is used days when more cooling power are needed. (And that is the same time as your solar system produces most energy!). ☀
Keep up the good work!
Björn
Hi Björn. Thank you for clarifying this. And thanks again for your help. Much appreciated :-)
#Australia pays huge for energy & I’m wondering if they would not benefit from Geo-thermal - it is a large cost to set up / but to go fosselfuel that is Natural gas an almost depleated energy source seems a waste of moneynfor pipes etc, when doing geo-thermal or clean and free is available go with it! You already have a backup lithium battery for a back up! #actnow #climateemergency #worldrenew
@@GurgaGeorgiTaylor I just checked up Melbourne and there mean temperature over year are around 15C so that are likely the ground temperature. The standard cooling system use 7/12 C all year round but you design a system to use higher temperature with the cost of bigger pipes and heat exchangers.
You can also, or rather I advise you to, adjust the system temperature bye demand. If it cold out side/not that hot you can rise the systems temperature. That lower the AC energy use because of higher efficiency and you reach a temperature where you can use ambient air or cold water from ground without electricity.
In water central heating system the compensation to outdoor temperature are standard today (in Sweden). So use it on cooling to! 😊
Do anyone know about a geothermal system in hot climate with main purpose to cool? I know it's used in Sweden, but "hot climate" aren't the way to describe our temperatures. 😊
Bjorn, it sounds like you are describing what is sometimes refered to as 'free cooling' which doesn't require the vapor compression cycle to move the heat from the space to the ground. In warmer climates compression is necessary. For cooling dominant climates it is more critical that the ground heat exchanger is sized to dissipate the heat rejected from the building and the heat of compression than sizing for heating season ground heat extraction.
My cousin Cecelie lives in a house in Oslo that she had built in the 1990s. As part of the basic design, geothermal heating was incorporated from the start. Even then the system gave something like three to one heat compared to the normal Norwegian simple electric heating [mostly from Hydro of course], and they still use a wood burner for the living room. That house is comfortable and cheap to run through the cold winter months. Being a substantial wooden construction it remains comfortable in the hot days in their short summer season.
3:1 COP is mandated by code and has been code around the world since the 1950's. For this reason adoption of heat pumps has been stifled by this moronic regulation. Reality is that ANY COP over 1.1 is better...
We live in Scotland and just in the final stages of installing our GSHP system. 3 Bore holes of 190M each, 800litre water tank and a 400litre buffer tank for heating system. 2 GSHPs from heliotherm using the R290 gas running in cascade. We're moving away from LPG, the financial gains are impressive, much better to do this to the house than keep the money in the bank especially with RHI. We also have it subsidised with 27kWh PV system and a couple of Tesla PW2s, went full green mode! #cheapliving hopefully!
That's sounds like a nice set up but lot of money!
Greg Knapp yea certainly is, although solar and batteries have been in for 2 years so it’s not all been done in one go. Slowly but surely trying to switch over.
Sounds brilliant! Good on you :-)
So your migrating from LPG to propane! You save electricity, but upfront cost a few $!!
Nathan LPG to Electricity basically. The propane is closed loop non consumable within the units and the gas used to transfer and compress the heat via the exchanger. The savings since on our current system is approx 50% in running costs. Combined with RHI were around 6-7 year pay back if we assume elec/lpg prices remain static.
Thanks for this. We need positive ideas to discuss these days. I look forward to my Sunday dose of optimism.
Thank you for your channel. I really appreciate the work you are doing.
In Scotland you can get a 0% interest loan from the energy saving trust to install a heat pump, ground or air source. I used it to cover most of the cost of my air source system and the RHI payments almost exactly match the loan payments. I wouldn't have been able to afford the installation without that.
Ahh Scotland, so far ahead of the rest of the UK in this sphere yet again.
Right - this is what governments need to be doing - they can provide loan capital almost for free. Well done Scotland. Until you can get a heat-pump for £1300, same as a gas boiler, most people will need help like this. Gas boilers will be illegal after 2025 at which point we'll see heat pump pricing plummet, I bet you.
Ahh Scotland, so far ahead of the rest of the UK in sponging cash from the rest of the UK... Indy2 vote, make it happen !
@@Mora41 You do know how a loan works, right?
@@TheForumgod yes. I will take one thanks.... Oh no wait .. I can't
Very interesting and informative, thank you. I lived in a modern concept bungalow with a geothermal heat source for three years. ( suburban UK) It was situated in a plot shaded by huge trees, and surrounded by a beautiful garden/pond. The underfloor heating/wood/tile was efficient, the heat pump ‘thing’ ( probably the water tank) was in a shared space in the small utility room, it was about the size of a fridge/freezer, and soon became part of the furniture, I became very used to it being there, and barely noticed it. I was advised not to fiddle with the thermostats, because it was set to the most efficient temperature for comfort, which was more to do with the design of the house, heating up from the floor into a high ceiling with air extraction vents in the ceiling. We never lacked warmth, very comfortable. The hot water ran out for the second person trying to have a good long shower, as with any big hot water tank compared to a gas combi, but it soon warmed up again. I can’t comment on bills, installation etc, it wasn’t my house, I admire the owner who put so much effort, money and creativity into the design. I wish it was a financially viable option for my little two up/two down house, I’d have nowhere to put the unit though, they’ll have to come up with something smaller, like building it into the foundations or something. I’m surprised they are still building mass produced, gas centrally heated new homes in the uk.
Excellent presentation, once again you attack a subject with logic presenting both sides of the issue with a clear and understandable presentation. Thank You
Thanks Mack. I appreciate that feedback :-)
Wonderful! I just watched the previous video and left a comment asking about residential scaled systems. And here is the answer! Thanks for posting this. You've got yourself a new subscriber.
Me: casually farms electricity from backyard
Others: you have backyard??
Fridge in reverse!
I f***ing love physics!
NERD AND PROUD! 😊
My wife and I built a home in Northern Ontario Canada 2 years ago with a horizontal ground loop heatpump feeding a 4 zone hydronic system used for both heating and cooling and it is fantastic!
I have had 2 different ground source heat pump systems in 2 different homes since 1989 and have been greatly impressed with them . I changed from a gas heat electric ac system 3 years ago in my current home and it reduced my energy usage by 2/3 . This has also enabled my recent DIY installation of 12,600 watt solar array with 60kwhr of lithium battery storage to supply almost all of my energy use and with more panels I could also charge an electric car thus reducing all my energy use to renewable except that energy used to manufacture products I buy and no more problems with power outages etc . yes there will be some maintenance and replacement costs but not much as a percentage yearly.
I was hoping he would make a video about this!
Nice & fun avatar, Charlie! :)
The best, most efficient form of heating or cooling is to insulate the dwelling from the outside temperatures. I see no mention of insulation. It could be as simple as using weatherstripping around the doors. Thanks so much for the informative video.
Uploaded only four minutes ago and already 2 comments. I must be in the wrong time zone!
Acme Fixer . Correct, for £27k, you could upgrade your house to near Passiv haus standard
Oh yeah, proper insulation is always the best first step. And older homes are almost never insulated properly, so there's usually quite a bit of improvement that can be done before you even get to the question of heating.
True, but I would say not absolutely. In really cold or really hot climates, the average temperatures are going to be such that, for large parts of the year, or even all year in some places, no amount of insulation will suffice to keep things comfortable all the time. You also cannot eliminate all leaks, as sometimes doors need to be opened. And in some situations, tapping the ground source could allow you to have windows opened, which tends to be pleasant in ways beyond what temperature and humidity measures express.
That's true. My house here in Canada gets awfully dry in the winter. It would be wonderful to open a window when it's only - 7 C or so, even for a brief time.
@@markthomasson5077 An enerphit retrofit is usually quite a lot more than 27K sadly. I've DIYed mine for very close to that price and it's almost enerphit. (26kWh/m2/yr). If you pay someone else it'll be at least 40K. To get to actual passivehouse (as opposed to the retrofit version) people can spend silly money (100K, 150K). It is getting cheaper as this stuff gets more normal and builders learn how to do it but fundamentally it's a lot of work, and every non-passive house that gets built (still 98% of them) demonstrates that we are still stacking up huge future problems for ourselves when this should have changed 20 years ago. Even (most) new houses are going to need big retrofits at the moment.
Heat pumps are a gift from heaven, nice video covering them :)
We have been using heat pumps with great succes in Denmark for many years.
To complete the information in the video: in 2014, only the drillings and the external pipelines for a vertical geothermal heating system (7 drillings at a dept of +/- 50 meters) in my newly builded house in Belgium costed me 12.702 euro, VAT not included. With that, you have to add the heating pump and further installations inside the house. But in combination with my solar panels, on a yearly basis my house is a net producer of energy.
Hey Jean, So my question will be.Do you know.What is the temperature of the ground on 50 Meters? Tx
Interesting they went for 7 drillings - you'd think fewer, deeper boreholes were better. I had a quote in the last month for a full conversion of existing gas condensing boiler system with 3x 110m boreholes: £38,000! I wish it was closer in cost to yours!
@@sic1038 That stings. 330m of borehole implies a heat load of about 13kW. I think you need more insulation and airtightness to get the load down. 38 grand on the fabric would get an average sized house down close to Enerphit (passive house retrofit) level so you'd only need heating a few days/year (+ hot water).
@Si C & @Captain Carter. It's true that a deeper drilling gives you more heath. So, you need less drillings. But the deeper the drilling, the higher the price of the drilling. Once you exceed 60m, you need very specialised and expensive equipment and it's not always easy to bring that equipment on site. In addition, the legislation is more severe. The temperature at 50 meters depth is about 14°C. The compressor of the heat pump (and the electricity that aliments the pump) brings that to 40°C. My heat pump is a Vaillant VWS 171/3 (17,3 kW and a COP 4,9). I use +/- 1 kW of electricity to have 4 kW of heat. For the 7 drillings, I needed approximately 400 square meters, which was available in my backyard.
The biggest saving you can make in a house is to install very high grade insulation, and good control of ventilation. My own house is built as a 'Tea Cosy' with underfloor insulation , 200 mm insulation in the walls and a SIPS roof. All windows are of course to the highest standards , ventilation is via a combination of 'earth pipes' and HRVS . Heating is by Air source heat pumps serving the Underfloor heating pipes and hot water tank.
One unusual approach was our use of the the underfloor void to supply air prewarmed from the earth beneath to the ventilation system , it supplies air at 13-14 degrees all winter with out side temp around 0c, and in summer it supplies air at 16-18 degrees most of the summer (it did reach 20 once when the outside air was 28).
Another feature is the use of the outgoing air from the ventilation system to supply the intake for the ASHP in the roof. The expelled air is often well below freezing! The COP is around 5, a very decent return.
The mechanical Air-con is of course powered by the solar PV panels, which also charge the LEAF much of the time.
I did look at the idea of Ground Source heating but at the time with no grants and lack of industry interest we decided to DIY our solution.
Not bad solutions. I consider to buy an HRV with built in heat pump it can provide extra heat on coldest day as well it allows to undersize heating and cooling systems
@@andreycham4797 I have found that my set up allows me to maintain the house heating level at a very comfortable 23 degrees in minus outside temps, with no other input. Except of course solar gain through the windows.
I started with a large ASHP rated at some 11 KW, but changed to three small units with a power drain of 1100 watts each which I use in parallel. Normally though only one is in use except on the coldest windiest days.
The importance of good insulation was illustrated when the heating failed during a winter freeze period, (It was cold enough for the UK government to be paying out on the 'cold weather 'payments for the elderly) It wasn't until four days after it failed that my wife was moved to wear a cardigan in the evening. The failure was a simple £5 relay and soon fixed.
JHAT! just keeps getting better. Good work.
Bless you Shani :-)
Back on track, Dave!
Good to see!👍
My favourite use of the heat pump was for cooling milk to 4C . The milk's heat (Cow's body temperature is 102 degrees F (39C) was transfered to heat water (to over 120F/50C) to be used for cleaning the milking system, plus it cooled the milk much faster than an Air cooled heat condenser which produces hot air which is wasted unless you need the heated air..
If you have a pond nearby a geothermal system using a closed loop is really efficient because of the better heat transfer rate in water compared to soil. (and you don't have to bury the pipe in the ground. )
My airsource HP is being installed this week, in the UK. I rarely drive many miles a year, so decided to put my green money into a heat pump rather than an electric car. My heat pump will reduce as much carbon as driving around 15,000km per year.
Interested how you get on. I’m in the UK too and am thinking of replacing my aging boiler with an ASHP./hybrid system of some sort.
@@mattcbinns I have had a full survey, scop for heat is 4.1, for hot water 1.8. I waiteed until the outside unit tech was ultra quiet, as i don't want to upset the neighbours. Specced an Ecodan R32 8.5kw with 210 litre tank.
@@MuppetkeeperGood job. Nice to see people doing sensible sums about most effective changes. And how much is that?
Who are you getting to install? I'd like to replace my oil heating, but not really sure how! I'm concerned that I'd have to install underfloor heating instead of radiators to get the best from a heat pump and thought that might be too expensive.
Hi all, as most of you have mentioned, the “hot side” of a heat pump is cooler than the hot side of a boiler, but this does not mean that you have to have underfloor heating. In my survey the installers measured each room, and the windows, and the construction type. They then put it all into their model to come back with a radiator size for each room, and therefore the “hot side” temperature that could be set for my heat pump. In my house almost all of the new radiators will the the same height and length, but will be double skinned rather than single. This allows for my heat pump output temperature to be only 45 degrees, which means that it will run efficiently. Due to this efficiency the RHI grant I receive will cover all but around £3,000 of the install, paid to me over 7 years. Combining this with lower energy costs (I will move to a lower priced electricity tariff), lower servicing cost, and that my gas boiler is about to die, it’s really a zero cost exchange for me. All good if you can afford the upfront £15k.
I install Ground source heat pumps in the U.K., very efficient systems. And what I like about ground source is that it is more complex than installing an air source, for example making sure that Brine loops or bore holes are calculated properly to ensure we have enough energy for the system. The reason why I prefer it’s complexity is because 10-14 year ago heat pumps in the U.K. tired to start to take off but like most things people jumped on the band wagon and installed them wrong. For example, most heating installers jumped on to the Air source installs thinking that it was much like a boiler and where you can just “chuck it in” but this lead to systems being undersized and having huge electrical bills. Also we have had many jobs where the ground arrays where very undersized and caused the ground to freeze up because the heat pump had taken too much energy from the ground and the ground did not have the chance to regenerate quick enough. And with the Renewable heating incentive(RHI) and this new £5000 off heat pumps install I am worried that the cycle of not installing heat pumps properly is going to happen again. Because I heard from another person in the industry that company are going to install and air source heat pump for £5000 for the whole job labour, parts, etc and what is more annoying I would say is that they are going to leave the existing boiler in place to the hot water and have the air source doing the heating or even better as in worse leaving the original hot water tank in which isn’t designed for a heat pumps lower flow temperature and running it on the electrical immersion heater and having the heat pump do the heating.which is crazy peoples electric will be no better off and of the boiler is in place we will still be using fossil fuels when the heat pumps are more than capable of doing both hot water and heating and cooling( ground source). Going back to price they have put forward Which at the moment is not doable because if for instance a Villant or Eco forest heat pump is £7-12000 obviously prices can be different depending on the KW rating.
Heat pumps are amazing technology, our family have been installing some of the first heat pumps that came to the U.K. and what I worry is that industry will have a big dip because people think they can cash in if you are considering a heat pump 1) they are an amazing bit of kit 2) I would recommend you go with a installer that has 5-10+ in Heat pumps and that just isn’t offering the cheapest quotes. Because heat pumps are more complex than a boiler so they need to be set up right.
_" And what I like about ground source is that it is more_ *_complex_* _than installing an air source"_
Are you serious when you write that?
A university in the USA used a ground sourced heat pump to heat and cool a building. At the end of winter the ground had so much heat extracted it became tundra. This was then used to cool the building in summer.
Heat pumps best used with low temperature underfloor heating. At times they just cannot generate high temperatures for normal panel radiators.
John Burns yeah there definitely more effective with underfloor however if you use Rads you need to size with either over size factor normally 0.40 depending on the temp of course. And I would say a heat pump is more complex than a standard boiler. Have to admit I was writing this comment half asleep this morning
Thank you for all this information. Your points apply also here in the Netherlands.
From what I have heard, ground source heat pumps are a massive step up from air source heat pumps then even beyond that are water source heat pumps at the top! It works much more efficiently if you have an ocean, river or lake nearby. It works for heating and cooling, depending on the climate or season.
Heat transfer to liquids is much more efficient then it is to a solid or a gas :)
pumps that sacavange heat from ground or water surce are mo efficient and less affected by the outside temperature than air heat pumps. but in more milder climates air heatpumps do just fine and they do ok even in cold climates, the disadvantage of ground/water source heat pumps is that you need land tor avaiable water to do it and often especially with ground heatpums the instaplation is much more expensive since you need to dig and install a lot of piping to collect the temperature.
The "value proposition" for geothermal heating and cooling varies widely depending on location, installation costs, soil type, soil temperature, heat demands, cooling demands, efficiency of the system, cost of electricity compared to the cost of alternatives of natural gas, propane or (God forbid) heating oil. For me, my return on investment was around 8%, but we have very special set of circumstances. I live in a rural location and natural gas wasn't available, but I do have a 1000 gallon propane tank here. Propane currently costs about USD$1.00 per gallon (sorry for the imperial units) and the spot price can touch USD$1.50 but most people buy on contract. . Ground is mostly rock free for 50 meters. Ground temperature is 12 degrees C year round. We need heat for 6 months, cooling for 4 months. Lowest outdoor temps are in February and reach -20C and highest outdoor temps touch up to 38C in July/August (not a weather paradise!). Our home is 500 sq meters and I installed two 5 ton (sorry, not sure of the metric equivalent, but they consume 4KW constantly) systems back in 2011. Each 5 ton system has six wells that are 60 meters deep. I placed the manifold in the basement, with manual shut offs, so that I could balance the flow of each glycol circuit. Our back up is a wood stove. On the coldest days the geothermal heat pumps are constantly running. In the USA, natural gas is so inexpensive that a geothermal system wouldn't be cost effective. Lastly, it is very nice not to have condenser units outside of the home - nothing to clean!
I installed a geothermal heat pump system in my house in Georgia. It worked great. The unit was inside my garage and was very quiet. It also had a heat collector on the side of the unit that transferred heated water to my water heater whenever my system was running.
Excellent work as always! Also very timely as I was just starting to look into this a bit more myself! (Edit to make english)
I live in Sweden where, as mentioned in the video, these systems are pretty common and has grown in to a small industry of its own. Which not very surprisingly seem to have interesting effects on the price of an installation.
In Sweden the typical installation cost, with drilling (in Sweden it is almost exclusively drilled systems), heat pump etc seem to vary from around 10000 GBP to upwards of 20000 GBP depending mainly on the size of your house and to some degree on how deep the bore holes need to be. There are some tax breaks in Sweden when doing work on your house (not specifically for these kind of installations) which explain part of the lower prices compared to the UK, but a very large part of the difference is probably just down to how common these installations have become here.
Now there is one caveat to this comparison, in Sweden water based house (and apartement) heating has been the norm for a long time, which makes it a whole lot easier - and cheaper - to change the heat source since it is unusual to have to add on a water based heat system in the actual house afterwards.
Since so many apartment builings also use water based heat systems, there is a growing trend of larger installations for both apartment buildings and other larger structures in general.
We (in Canada) have a similar climate, but you guys are way ahead of us when it comes to heating and insulation standards.
A real game changer are our (swe) high oil price due to tax and (some will kill me now) cheap electricity. It use to pay off it self after approx 7 years.
GB, as mention above, has a price setup where the running cost will be equal to oil. That explains a lot for the development of heat pump use in different countries!
One reason for large buildings, that use to be connected to district heating, to switch over to geothermal heat is the running cost. For "some reason" the private district heating system always cost 80% of the electricity price...
Sorry, I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying there was collusion between the electric utilities and whoever operated the district heating system?
Just the idea of district heating alone is a big advancement beyond what we've got. You guys have had so much development in that area while we've pretty much been standing still for decades.
@@Kevin_Street i don't tink it really is a collusion. By history they have competed with oil and electric heating so just set the price to approx 80% of electricity has worked fine for a long time. But with ever rising energy cost the geothermal alternative has become an option. There is a bitt of a war going on where the district heat provider try to match there marginal cost to the new behaviour of the costumer. In Stockholm, where i work will energy savings incl heat pumps, the district heating has three components, energy price, max used power and the amount of water pumped thru your house. The energy price differ a lot during the season of year. From 0,25 sek/kWh to 0,65 during winter. (10 sek approx 1 $, GBP and €). The power fee are approx as much as the energy cost during a year. It's basically to pay your part off the plant. Then there is the water volume fee to motivate sending back a low temperature to increase the efficiency of the pipe use and the plant... Yes, I use a special excel sheet to calculate my customers savings... 😂
I live on Long Island NY and we just had geothermal heating and cooling installed last week if anyone has any extra questions I can try to answer them we also have solar... awesome video btw!!
Thanks Mathew. Good luck with your new system - I hope it really worlks out well for you :-)
Sorry but solar energy costs more energy than it produces. maintenance costs, and you’ll have to replace them again in about 20 years.
@@clxwncrxwn No it doesn't. If it did, utilities wouldn't use it.
clxwncrxwn I’m not sure where or how ur getting ur calculations ? The solar will have paid for its self in 3.7 years this includes the increase in electric consumption by the new geothermal sooo that’s 16.4 years of “free” electricity if they only last 20 years
Great as usual, like your style & content, thanks. Also very cool to see another Brit doing so well on the 'Tube
As ever great video. One of your best so far, particularly in as far as you are covering something we can all actually do, money providing of course.
Fully Charged did another video about a new build estate in Wales which has 170m borehole ground source heat pump systems in every home.
Makes it much cheaper to dig the boreholes before the buildings go up, and when you can do a few hundred at a time.
Just Have a Link:
ua-cam.com/video/uI7wxNtrorQ/v-deo.html
Just to clarify I think that was one big borehole per 10 houses or so, which is where some of the cost reduction comes from.
@@Wookey. no, I'm pretty sure it was at least one per house, some had two.
@@MrGonzonator @MrGonzonator OK, so now I have to check :-) 3:26, 8:20 and 13:40: It's not really clear from what they say, but I think it's one borehole+pump for each building, rather than each home. So a terrace of 3 shares a borehole. But yeah they could have meant one per home, but in that case why go down so deep? 170m is a lot deeper than is normal for a reasonably well-insulated domestic building. I wonder if the details are actually written down somewhere?
@@Wookey. reading a little more into the company behind the borehole, it's maybe something to do with UK legislation, as the RHI is very generous towards district heating by sharing the boreholes in a common loop or even just with one other home they technically qualify for the RHI help.
I have also watched the few interviews with Dandilion Energy, who are a retrofit heat pump company with some innovative drilling technologies, run by an ex-Google-X executive. They use 500ft boreholes too.
In Germany you get very good loans for new homes with better insulation and heat pumps. When building from scratch the integration of geothermal plus solar into floor and water heating is great and the additional cost is negible. The alternative would be natural gas heating and alone not having to pay the installation and paperworks of street to home connection saves up to 8000€ depending where you live in Germany.
Oh... liked and subbed! Great delivery, excellent pacing and pragmatically presented. Well done sir, I look forward to watching many more of your offerings.
I have a Ground Source Heat Pump. I installed it when my Air Source Heat pump needed to be replaced. My payback for the extra cost was only 4.5 years. Additionally it took 5 extra days to install the GSHP. Overall I am quite pleased with my decision.
The biggest challenges to both GSHP, Solar PV and battery tech are the upfront costs in existing homes. Most incentives need to target those areas as they represent the highest cost to homeowners and are the largest blocker to large scale domestic adoption.
When I bought a house back in 2002, I tried to get the cost of adding a geothermal heat pump included into the home loan. I did the math and realized I'd have been saving money from day one -- the drop in energy cost for cooling the house would have been greater than the increase in the mortgage payment. Unfortunately I was unable to convince the bank to do it. And the up-front cost was indeed enormous -- there was no other way to make it happen.
I don't know how far along you are with your house payments, but if you are nearly done then your bank might be interested in refinancing your home. The bank won't risk anything because if you stop your payments they get a home with a geothermal heatpump and if you pay until the end they get interest.
BUT Before considering a heatpump of any kind, check if you need more insulation. Preventing the need for heating and cooling not only saves in the monthly electic bill but it also makes the upfront cost of system cheaper because you don't need a 20kwh heatpump if your home can be heated in the winter with a 10kwh instead.
don't do it...I know of many situations that people have regretted their decision in the install. In Fact I have yet to meet one person who has one of these systems that has only good things to say. I really wish they worked, I really do, but they only perform on paper
@@TheHowtoDad "has only good things to say"? How is that a useful standard for evaluating... anything? I have plenty of negative things to say about my current plug-in hybrid car -- you could even say that it too "only performs on paper" as Ford famously lied about its average fuel economy and were sued for it. But it's been a trouble-free and actually very efficient vehicle (in real world performance over the years) that's easily my favorite of all the cars and trucks I've ever owned. One of the best large purchases I have made. I can't think of any engineered product I've ever had, about which I only have good things to say.
@@TheHowtoDad I have some friends who live out in the sticks in a converted barn, their underfloor system works really well, ony good things to say :-)
@@TheHowtoDad Don't tell me that geothermal heat pump did not work. In household sizes it is a well developed standard system design today. I have been in touch with systems sence 1996 and it has been a continuous improvement and development based on previous experience. Today it is used to heat everything from cabins to castles in Sweden. A Swedish house without geothermal heating comes with a lower price equal to the installation cost.
very informative, as usual. thank you.
Fully charged came to my estate during the build and done a programme here. We have vertical heat source pumps, under floor heating and solar panels, with no gas to any house. My current utility bills during the winter is around £40 per month 👌👌👌
In the UK most homes don't have aircon, and summers are getting hotter. The great benefit of GSHP is that it will cool as well as heat. For new home builds, it makes sense to incentivize GSHP over gas central heating. Installing in existing homes that already have gas, it is harder to justify unless the gas heating system needs renewing.
I agree the cost saving on a new system when infrastructure is already in place is less desirable which is the same reason we can't get rid of air polluting automobiles.
If your house are heated with water circulation system I don't really agree. An existing house tend to use much more energy than a new one. That makes the absolut saving a lot bigger in the existing house. The cost of the geothermal system are pretty much the same for a ordinary singel family house. Because of that new houses in Sweden, that are very well insulated, uses other kind of heat pumps. Ie Air to air and exhaust air. To install a geothermal system "it is just to drill, found a place for the heat pump and connect the pipes to the heat pump. Done!" 😊
@@bjornjonsson1875 Yes the savings would be much bigger but the cost of installation and removal of the old system is also higher. What I was thinking is the difference in cost from a conventional furnace to a Gshp when you have none ie new house the cost differential is minimal so the pay back is sooner even though the heat loss is less would be good to see some math on that.
Actually we're entering a grand solar Minimum - the last time we did folks were ice skating on the Tymes River...
@@TheJakeRobinson (wasn't that mainly because of dust in air due to large eruption)?
20 years? we've been heating our house in new zealand with geothermal hot water for over 40 years, granted its much simpler than a "heat pump" with just a pump that sucks up hot water, which then goes through a water to water heat exchanger, the water that goes through the exchanger is then pumped around the house in a closed loop, and the "spent water" from the geothermal side (in our case) drains into a spa pool before heading down the drain,
these systems were pretty popular in the 70's in certain parts of nz , but a new bore isnt really allowed these days as the big power companies have all the geothermal rights tied up with the respective councils, so you cant get permission to drill, a story as long as history itself, profits before people ;)
I hope some corporate scumbag doesn't come up with 'solar rights' to find another way to extract money from people.
I knew there has /had to be a reason! #why? #worldrenew #climateemergency is should be OUR motto = should be something when we now vote /we need a promise and hold them to it -approve only geothermal to another level of clean and remove all preventing us all being the world, approving this and inplementing it immediately before anymore forrests claimed to be only ground cover or garbage fuel is destroyed! Its not that BIO anything to blame - as it is mean’t to be good = it is what actually happens is the problem!
I would like everyone interested in why? We are NOT using geothermal heat pumps to heat and cool our homes! This in 70’s was considered going overboard by the hippies! Whos SORRY now? We all need to stop look around something BIG coverup is coming down. #geothermal #geothermalenergy #actnow #climateemergency #worldrenew
Odin Thorsdad ~ a big problem right now is the questions Do we do whats best for all or just millionairs, car,iphones,technical software and hardware companies, banks, corporations or humans? If for both to have a solution I feel the side that needs all this power should pay for the Geothermal conversion to all homes small businesses schools etc., and allow them in turn to use the existing fuels like fossil and coal to make it possible to make their techy stuff - til we figure out a better way? This cost of implementing geothermal to all - can be equally dist between users of dirty energy also precious metals and pollution they CAUSE! Thereby making geothermal our new planet preserving attempt and keeping our evolution growth going! Win win plan for now! Til we know better and do better! #worldrenew #energyemergency #actnow #bloomberg #bloom #blood #gore #350.org #greenpeace #geothermalnergy #Sierraclub #energy #bioenergy
A solution to the geothermal right issue would be "your right to use the energy, but not selling the energy"
Very down to earth idea!
Happy owner of a retro-fitted home with ground source heat pump for 8 years. One nice point not mentioned is that as heat is pulled from the ground during heating periods it makes the cooling periods much more efficient and the same is true when the cooling period heats up the ground. I also add heat to the ground loops in the late summer through an integrated solar thermal water hating system that also heats my domestic water.
Very nicely done, I encourage every client (where land permissible) to at least consider Ground Source solutions, especially when a replacement boiler is possibly on the cards. I make no profit by suggesting it and never recommend any companies, I merely think it can make economic sense in certain situations.
“Without science, everything is a miracle.”
-- Lawrence Krauss
Science comes from the Latin root word "scientia" and it simply means knowledge. What is not said of science is that it is always Truthful, because often it is not.
Brilliant! Thank you sir. I'm now planning on a DIY system for my 2k sq ft home in California.
Always very informative! Love that channel!!!
I was just imagining asphalt black top parking lots using this to heat the water during the day, and maybe even the night.
The Giant's Causeway Visitor Centre, in Northern Ireland, does this (ground source heat coils under the asphalt carpark) and, in addition to other innovative ideas, has a turf roof to capture and filter rainwater. Well worth a visit for eco reasons, as well as the amazing Giant's Causeway itself and the surrounding coast.
Help from our government ! Just look how they have being "helping" recently .
Helping them selves & their chums.
I once rented a large house that had a geothermal system. Very impressive. The system kept the house pleasantly cool in hot weather and quite cozy even in the coldest winter weather. I was surprised at how rapidly the interior temperature could be adjusted. The cost of heating and cooling was also a fraction of what I had been paying in much smaller homes.
Great video! I am a certified residential geothermal designer and love this video. I’ll keep it in my Supplies of informative videos to share with my customers from now on! If you’re in the USA and looking to build or replace PLEASE consider a geothermal system and get it designed rather than “off the shelf” DIY kits, soil is different everywhere and you need to take soil conditions, lithology, and geology into account. And don’t forget, there is a federal tax incentive for 2020 that is reduced in 2021 as they phase it out with the solar incentives. Good luck and thanks for the video!!!
I was always told this is not particularly geothermal but actually solar gain (especially for the 1M deep systems) as the heat comes from the sun warming the earth and not coming from down below.
I tend to agree, you'd have to be at coal-mine depths to get geothermal heat.
That question set me off on a bit of a hunt - I could find avg. geothermal & solar heat flux but difficult to deal with amount of heating of earth surface vs depth. This article indicates that for most of us, below 30 feet, there is little seasonal variation so if you go deeper than 30 feet, one is In geothermal regime and shallower than that, solar increasingly has an impact. builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/EarthTemperatures.htm
Yes, Graham Eida, you are correct! The energy for the heat pumps in the ground (earth, rock and water) comes from the sun. As of course the energy to the air heat pumps.
By the way, I might have missed it, but didn’t see any mention of “digging” the source tube for a heat pump into a lake. Easy and also stable temperature even in winter (+4 degrees Celsius) as a source for energy.
Lived 15 years in a 140 m2 house with earth/ground heat pump. The lowest yearly total use of electricity was 4600 kWh, that included heating and all other electricity for the house. This was at the Arctic circle in Sweden.
They did a house in western canada .The pipe is about 1.5 meters deep and about 75 to 125 meters long. I may be off a little .The air coming into the house was 100 deg. for winter and is used as cooling for summer.
@@chrislook3395 Chris, if you do the heat-flux sums you'll find that the geothermal flux is very low indeed in the curst (top ~30km) (which is why the core can stay molten for billions of years) so the solar flux will dominate until at least several hundred metres down, probably several km down (except in hotspots). So even in the stable temp area more than 10m down if you take out some heat it'll be replenished almost entirely from above, not below. i.e the OP, Graham was correctly informed.
Very expensive in my country.
Other way is to low heat demand by insulating the house.
Yep. Very good insulation and airtightness can be had for cost of ground source heat pump. Much better value in the long term Fabric first every time.
@@Wookey. Air tightness is stupid. All it does is make a toxic prison which now has to have more $$$ spent to evacuate the air. Semi tight is ok. Airtight is stupid.
@@w8stral Airtightness is not stupid and it does not involve insufficient ventilation. I suggest you read up a bit to understand passivehouse design philosophy. If you insulate a building reasonably well, then air leakage becomes the dominant heat loss. The way to deal with this is have plenty of ventliation (exactly to avoid your 'toxic prison') but put a heat-exchanger in the air path so 95% of the heat stays inside. This gets you a factor of 10-20 reduction in heat loss for the same ventilation, and usually much better ventilation in practice. The point is that the air movement is now controlled (and heat-exchanged), rather than being through random holes in the building and depending heavily on how windy it is today.
@@w8stral I have an air to air heat exchanger (HRV) that i8s 95% efficient and ventilation is no problem.
@@Dennis-lk3qi bravo, and parts of your house becomea toxic dump over time as the circulation does not reach those rooms.
Very informative JHAT as always. One point about cooling with heat pumps: it does work, but not as effectively as an airco. Since ideally you're using a floor heating system, you're just getting a very cold floor in Cooling mode. The heat exchange is not so effective, because the hottest air is not on the floor. Ventilators help to get some airflow, but it will only make a couple of degrees difference. Also, the water in the piping will be really cold, so you get problems with condensation.
We just installed our (Air source) heat pump this in a totally renovated pre-war home. It works like a charm for heating. Very efficient, and mostly silent. But the cooling was a bit of a letdown. It did work and got us through the heatwaves this summer, but especially the condensation problem made it less care free than hoped.
Good point. When cooling we tend to recommend using a fan-coil system to cool the air instead. If mechanical ventilation is in place, of the project is new-build, its the best way forward. Not always possible in retrofit obviously. Using the wet heating system for cooing can lead to condensation, but is still widely done.
Ours is a forced air system, so heating or AC work equally well EXCEPT I don't like that water immediately begins to condense on the metal ducting as soon as the AC is activated. I presume this is also happening inside the walls. Insulated ductwork might alleviate this, but that isn't a retrofit I'm willing to tackle. Thankfully, it seldom gets hot enough here to need AC, so I just don't use that function of my heat pump.
Very good and understandable video.
Can you do a segment on the Eavor loop from Eavor Technologies? Looks like some cool tech. Cheers
I have been looking at heat pumps for when my old Potterton boiler gives up the ghost. Ground source initial costs are very high. What about a video on air source heat pumps? I think more people could probably afford one of those. (Me included)
Alan Easthope , assuming you live in the U.K. don’t forget now the Green Home grant and renewal heat incentive
Air source are great if you don't live where it gets really cold. They're good down to about 35*
The low cost choice are air to air heat. It's basically a revered AC dimensioned to run as a heat pump. It save less but are about 2000 euro.
@@kj9219 it could be good if you have a long heating season to! Then it can handle the long periods with little heating demand. 😊
The problem is efficiency at low (air) temperatures. The ground temperature is quite stable during the year, thus the efficiency is improved.
COP with regards to input air and output water temperature - www.researchgate.net/figure/COP-of-the-air-to-water-heat-pump-with-different-load-side-inlet-temperatures-Based-on_fig1_326114264
I put a ground source heat pump into my house West of Boston, MA, as it was being renovated and expanded back in 2014. It's just about paid off, or will shortly, as I go through my seventh winter with it. Expensive up front, but in the long run it's proving outrageously cheap.
I was going from 1100 to 1900 square feet, with a small increase in footprint, and a partial second story, but with a dramatic improvement in insulation from R11 walls and roof to R22 walls and R45 roof. My intention was to put in a centralized wood stove and carry most of the heating load. Then I found out about geothermal systems. As cheap as seasoning my own wood and burning it, I was told, without the fuss. Given most of my electricity is nuclear, and my existing heat source was a 28 year old oil furnace, the climate payoff was made particularly profound. It's dropped the carbon footprint of my house from about 6 metric tons had I stuck with oil to about 300 pounds using electricity from my utility (80% nuke, 8% solar, 12% gas) and my own solar array. About a pound of CO2 for every 10 kWhs.
The gross cost of the 4 ton system was $46,500, but it's remarkable how many factors drove that down, and how fast. I got a renewable energy federal tax credit of 30%, knocking about $14k off the price. I didn't pay federal taxes for well over a year. I don't make a huge income. The oil furnace was getting old. My central AC unit was highly underpowered, and also old, and updating that would have been about $3,500 installed. I can't get methane gas to my house, so a new burner would have had to have been either propane or oil. $4-6k to install. Then upwards of $2k a year in fuel, plus electricity costs for a standard AC unit. So about $8-9k up front and almost $2.5k a year to run. Plus maintenance. That would likely be a break even. But running the geothermal heat pump has proven to be only about $400 a year. It's been amazing. My electricity is about $0.13 a kWh, and it costs me something like a kWh per degree day to run. So just over a $1 a day for AC, when I need to run it (about 40-50 days a year now, getting worse), and about $2.50 a day in the depth of winter, except during cold snaps down to more than -10C/10F mean temps, when it's a good bit more.
The marginal cost of the duct work was going to be around $15k regardless, with the new space and the updates to the rest of the house. So:
$46,500 - $13,950 tax credit - $15,000 for ductwork required regardless - $8-9k for unneeded fossil & AC hardware = $9,000. And it's $1,500 less each year to run. That's 6 1/3 years to pay off, then $1,500 cheaper every year. Heat pump is expected to last 25 years, and the 2 x 300 foot ground loops about 50. Another advantage is the forced hot air isn't as hot, so it doesn't dry the air out as much. More comfortable, no humidifier required in winter. But it does dry out the air nicely in summer with the condensate pump.
One of the best decisions I've ever made. And I hear Dandelion is now doing GSHPs for way less. $18-25k for average houses with existing duct work they can use. I didn't get clear numbers from anyone when I decided to do it, but it has proved well worth doing.
2023 jan- thanks for your experience, that systems was extremly coslty up front
Great vid. Clear and straightforward. Thanks
Economic is the real challenge for now.
I didn't know much about the subsidies paid to fossil-fuel companies. That sounds like corruption to me, utterly short-sighted at the very least.
300 million EVERY year from the UK government!
The government taxes us and takes our money.
The government gives our money to big oil which makes petroleum products cheaper.
To reduce the use of cheap petroleum products the government taxes us and takes our money.
Rinse, lather, repeat
@@erdelegy It's the old story; attentive, helpful socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for everyone else!
@@gamingtonight1526 The UK government owns the "fossil" resource. The true picture for the UK is not as straightforward as it might appear.
The fossil fuel industries get about $20 billion a year from the US government. Vox did a great article detailing it 3 years ago, if you're interested. When I googled "Vox $20 billion subsides", it was the first article that came up.
I work in the HVAC industry, and installed my ground source heat pump myself, for about US $5,500. I used a horizontal loop field, abut 2.5M deep.
Mine is oversized for cooling, and undersized for heating, so I can't use it all winter long, but in the milder parts of winter, I can heat my house for about US $1 a day. I have a fossil fuel furnace as back up.
The variable speed\inverter systems, are going to change the industry for the better.
I enjoyed the video, Thank you.
Great video as always, thank you! 🙏🙏🙏
8:00 - The total GLOBAL GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT in 2017 was $8.125 quadrillion. The fossil fuel industry received 6.4% or $5.2 trillion in subsidies that same year.
I've been think in a city like mine, Vancouver, with municipal parks throughout the city could cities use the sports fields as a place to build large loops and then charge the neighborhoods to hook up to this network?
Yes - new tech just for this came out 3 years ago from Darcy Solutions located in Minnesota U.S.
I would love to see renewable energy incentives ramped up over the next few years. Here in Canada, we ought to be working alongside the UK & other nations to come up with better plans for fast-forwarding the renewable energy sector ☮️
Here in Ontario Doug & Ontario Hydro One increased my electricity rate by 25% in April to help me out with Covid and took away my overnight discount, to help me out with Covid, so sod it I'm ramping up the propane and ramping down the electricity a bit. I'm not running a global charity here. It's just to help me out with Covid Doug says.
Post from Canada:
I really hope Canadian govt. wakes up to this and give much needed incentives for Green Energy homes and Green Projects. I am glad the prices and the technology is gaining traction.
Raising taxes on dirtier options to make cleaner options more competitive .... is far more efficient and fairer than costly subsidies programs that tend to be skewed to the rich and better educated....
Kon, I am from Canada as well. I purchased a GSHP system when the Federal and Provincial (ON) govs were offering $5K CDN each. By the time the system was installed I only received one of the two...and the hoops I had to jump through made it questionable in terms of value to me. It seems every con artist around pops out of the wood work when subsidies become available. I suspect the incentives will happen again soon but a word of caution to anyone having such a system installed under a subsidy - confirm if the company existed before the subsidy. If they did not then the odds are they will disappear just after the subsidy ends. The odds are also that they will not have the experience or skills to properly engineer your system so while it may work it is a flip of the coin as to whether it will be anywhere near as efficient as it would be if properly engineered. Another person commented about breakdowns....these systems, in many cases, can only be serviced by those who are certified by the manufacturer so make sure there are well established professionals in your area who can repair it when it breaks.
@@richardlangley90 Thx. for the info.
Can anyone inform me, were I can find this type of systems or informations about it, in Portugal? I’m interested. Thanks
thermia.com/geothermal-energy/how-a-heat-pump-works-3d/
www.nibe.eu/en-gb
To start with...
Hahaha old news for people that don't like change. 15 years ago I put in a ground source heat pump / air conditioning when I built my new house it was only $5k more at the time and of course it has paid me back 5 times over. Now I added solar 4 years ago and basically I can live in my home for the cost of land taxes. How people can't see the advantages is beyond my comprehension.
I was wondering how it would work near the Gulf coast. Houston here. The compressor has to work that get the humidity to condense on the evaporator cold. Would running a dehumidifier in the house help with making the indoor air more comfortable?
@@bocadelcieloplaya3852 yes but my system also has hvac which dehumidifies too. both have drip trays plumbed into the drains.
@Common Sense Realist Yes the ground source temperature in texas is likely 70 f so not as efficient for AC where mine is 50f so it works awesome. I heated my house with conventional electric heating (resistance) and it was 3 times as much.
@Common Sense Realist ... that's what I was wondering
@Common Sense Realist many greenhouses are heated with ground air and a fan
Sounds remarkable 👍
Good article, as a plumber I was putting heat pumps in schools here in Canada in the 1970's Originally run off boilers and cooling towers. Ground source since the 90's. Not widely used though.
I use to work in the heating industry . Had a call mid winter, their house was cold, their heat pump was less than a year old. We went to check it out . The out side temp. was cold enough , that the pump could not heat. We checked the auxiliary heat ,it was set to low, we turned it up and all was well, except the power bill. If the outside coils were in the ground, they could have easily heated the house, with out the expensive auxiliary heat.
11:09 "If the right level of government incentive is put in place, then consumers will see the value in converting."
I'm sure the affluent will be quick to see the value of using other people's money to increase the value of their homes.
The fossil fuel industry is given huge subsidies by governments across the world, time for some pay back.
I like what you are doing.
I installed an air source heat pump to heat my work shop it has made me a believer and would love to convert my house to a ground source heat pump as well
I'm moving soon and getting one of these because traditional A/C is too damn expensive ($300 USD/month).
If you have really cold winters and very hot summers then that is definitely possible, but it might also just have been because your home was badly insulated. The best heating/cooling is the one you don't need after all. I am also aiming for a geothermal heat pump, but I am still working on some of the insulation (saves in the energy and upfront costs).
Youre paying way too much. You might need to figure something out besides just a different AC system. Drop your living temps a couple degrees in the winter and raise it a couple in the summer and youll see a remarkable change in that price, I'm sure. Like maddognl said, insulation can make the difference.
@Donald McCarthy we need more solar power to balance the air con load! 😊
@@dustinsmith8341
Those with high heating / cooling bills often have homes that are too big.
It got very hot a week or so ago. I went outside and sprayed water on my outside walls. Helped a lot.
@Donald McCarthy
Demand is projected accurately by the utilities and the grid is upgraded to take care of the demand. The problem is that the growth is being offset by the retirement of older power plants that cost more than renewables. What must be done is to get rid of each coal plant and replace it with twice as much renewables plus storage. If we don't, then the renewables will never be able to keep up with growth. The governments must force the utilities to plan for the future. Basically it's that the utilities are trying to get by with as little costs as possible and cutting corners -- we'll worry about the future later (stoopid lack of planning). One day the governments will say you can't buy any more fossil fuel cars or use fossil fuels to heat. Then the electric grid will have a bunch of loads that it didn't have before.
Don't call it geothermal when you have to use a heat pump. Call it "ground source heat pump" when the ground is just normal earth temperature. Geothermal is when you drill a well and get hot water you can use directly for heating. Real geothermal saves you close to 100% on heating bills.
Actually no. The scientific term for this method is called shallow geothermal systems.
Well done.
I friend of mine had one in Milton Ontario 35 years ago.. Heated and air conditioning but he used an electric water heater, it did need an auxiliary electric heater when it was below -15C outside. He did this in part of a 1/4 acre lot. This was a warm air system...no radiators of course