See, the thieves Guild in my world works with law enforcement, settling debts that people refuse to pay, and keeping watch at night. But most people are magically brainwashed so I guess mine is an outlier lol
And because other names of organized crime have cultural implications. If you call them a mafia or a yakuza or a triad pr something they all have more meaning and imply a language or culture that probably doesnt exist. But protection rackets, territorial disputes, fencing, drug dealing, arms smuggling and piracy are all things a "guild" might be involved in. It is organized crime with a fantasy coat of paint. A crime family would be great.
@@kaemonbonet4931 definately how I run my "guilds" as mob families, but with a different name and coat of paint. Or, in my current Sci-Fi game, it's still called a guild, but it's stuck the players in the middle of a mob war fighting over territory of a 3rd after they collapsed, with the PC owned tavern smack in the middle.
The Thieves Guild though may indeed have defacto support to do that & could indeed be de jure formalised by State. State could have it's IRS operating & when they suspect someone is not paying the proper taxes they set the Thieves Guild to work. Many old civilisations had "Tax Farmers"/Tax Collectors" who received a % of the tax they collected. It's very easy to see a thieves Guild basically being the authorised Tax Collectors.
Look at the Las Vegas mafia - they kept a TIGHT leash on crime in the city because their multi-million-dollar casino operations required that people feel safe to walk home at night with large amounts of cash on them. Keeping the petty criminals on watch to make sure they don't accidentally draw attention to your smuggling operation seems like a good idea, if you have the money and influence to get it started. And if you can enforce rules, why not add a protection fee? Not only does it line your pockets, but it helps keep tabs on who's operating in your territory. And obviously, 10 silver a month is reasonable to not accidentally stab yourself 37 times before drowning in the harbor, as commonly happens.
I like the Marienburg thieves' guild. There is no thieves' guild. It is a joke name for the loose mafia commissione-style gathering of gang leaders who meet up to settle matters. There is no thief guild membership, budget, charter, enforcement power etc. "Thieves' guild" authority ends the moment one gang leader starts a fight with another one, and they frequently do. Its authority begins when the other gang leaders pressure the conflicting ones into settlements. The gangs are balanced by how none of them hold complete sway individually, and the need to hide their conflicts from city authorities. The gangs hold properties, members, territory and all that and will enforce protection rackets.
@@ShadowedBattlegroundsCre-tk9md Though that would seem an odd thing for an openly criminal organization to lobby for formal legitimacy in society. Like if a Mafia Don said to a government official "Oh yeah, we're a Mafia Business" in front of his gambling den. It's a bit on the nose. There's a reason Tony Soprano is involved in "Waste Management". It's a cover, not the genuine article out in broad daylight.
The privateer system was similar to thieves' guilds. Organized groups of robbers with strict hierarchies of authority and rank. On the job training. Policing of non-members attempting to compete and members that violate the rules. Recognition from official power structures. It was obviously decentralized, but other than that, it checks all the boxes.
In practice, theyre often used interchangeably, but in definition, a guild requires a different organizational structure, and has broader responsibilities to its members. Just as a company differs from a guild. And a guild differs from a union. In most cases however the term 'thieves' guild' is nothing more than mockery, and all it really is is a crime syndicate. One might just as well have a crime syndicate calling itself ", larceny incorporated"
@@Desdemona-XI in the historical definition yes, but nobody uses that definition in sufficient numbers for it to matter one bit. "thieve's guild" is just a fantasy term for any form of organised crime, and thus the mafia or mob is _exactly_ what a thieve's guild should look like in a conworld.
1 way in which you could make a Thieves Guild different from a Mafia/Cartel is if it like other guilds somehow has some pseudo legitimate/useful services. I also imagen that a thieves guild could argue to be somehow more structered and less volatile/destructive than a mafia or cartel. ''I lost my keys to this box does anyone know someone to help me open it?'' (maybe locksmith don't exist yet and people used a thieves guild first and out of frustration locksmiths became a job to limit the harm from their former guid members 🤣🤣)
Funny enough, if my memory serves, some security firms IRL *were* founded by reformed criminals. In other words, there's a real life precedence for this!
But here is the thing. There is no such thing as town guards as well in history. Keep men employed doing guard work is expensive when everyone are subsistence farmers. It should be the same as keeping an army mobilized at all times and that is expensive. We can only do that now and have a police force because how much wealth we have today. In the past town guards were mostly just fire watchers. Old men and children patrolling the streets in order to check that none of the roofs have caught fire. They will not be able to stop many thieves. Mostly, crimes were solved by the individuals. There is a reason lynching and mob justice is a thing.
An intelligence agency, a security consultancy, mercenaries for hire. A thieves guild is really just a slightly less ethical and legal adventures guild. A way for the wealthy and powerful of a country to hire assassin's and thieves to flex their influence and expand it. I like the example of Maven Black briar from Skyrim that literally used the thieves guild to destroy a rival brewery. It all exists at the behest of the powerful so they can create the illusion that there are laws protecting people, but not be beholden to them themselves.
In my world the theives guild doesn't earn income primarily by stealing, but rather hiring out their services to people wishing to recover items, gathering information, security consulting, a protection racket, and even detective work to catch non guild theives. They do do a bit of common theivery, but bribes are more effective if you don't already annoy those in power.
Man Grungeon master got me thinking of a wizard thieves guild leader playing both sides of the magical arms race. Developing defenses that they sell to the rich and then selling information on their weaknesses or the spells to counter them to his guild associates
Another "playing both sides" angle is imagine if the grand twist was that the KING is the actual guild leader themselves (or at least endorses their radically-minded heir, having sold their parent on the idea). The guild provides "dark money" for the royal family to use on projects potentially disfavored by the noble/business class (like social welfare programs for the poor), by targeting political enemies/distrusted allies (either seeking information while they're in the city for business, or thwarting their plans such as them having sent their own agents to steal secret treasures/cause chaos).
@@Vaeldarg OooOooh! So a kind-hearted politician (the most fantastical element of the potential setting) who actually tries to do right by his/her people. But keeps getting shut down by rival politicians and corporations. So he/she just goes full Palpatine but light side!!! I love it!!!
@@user-db4fy5ji8e And since is a royal, has the social training to be a charismatic leader, checking that box, and those masking the royal's involvement being trusted knights (ones trained as more like special ops agents), checks the box of the thieves' guild leadership having a strong bond with each other.
I think a thieves guild works best if they don't only operate on stealing items, but also collecting information and acquiring illegal goods. Any wise king will want some spies. Especially ones who can track down dangerous items and spirit them out of any strongholds or dungeons they find themselves in
The Sun King did not go down to the organised crime of Paris or Marseilles to do that. The french state had its own black cabinet of letter-openers and code-breakers, and its own network of informants. There was secret police responsible for the security of the state in early modern nations. They were recruited much like other ciivl servants and army officers. Out of up-and-coming middle class families and low nobility. A steady job for the army or the buerocracy was a path up for low nobility with some but not huge land holdings.
@@zacharyweaver276 The black cabinet intercepted mail. The crowns would have offices of these people at mail hubs to intercept and open mail, seal it back up and let it move on. You have to understand just how little the Sun King cared if people knew he was doing this.
Then their basically an Information Guild that does thievery as a bonus service. Which is probably the most realistic take on a Guild like the Thieves' Guild.
Espionage is a form of stealing. Stealing Information very valuable to a Ruler, to a Merchant, to a Manufacturer. You've hit the nail on the head. Information brokering, need of State to send Agents to go after documents, retrieve items is the very reason a thieves guild would be useful to & tolerated by a ruler. Sometimes a Ruler will need to circumvent neighbour countries ban on certain goods exiting their country so would employ Thieves Guild to Smuggle. Thieves Guild might also be useful to a Ruler at sea as Privateer/Buccaneer/ Freebooter "Pirates" under royal commission to interdict enemy Traders or tax ships avoiding a nation's Ports yet sailing in it's waters,
The thief/assassin guild in the anime "Banished From The Hero's Party, I Decided To Live A Quiet Life In The Countryside" is a really interesting example, I think. In that setting, people receive blessings when they turn a certain age, and those blessings come with a specific role (usually a profession), which in turns gives them the necessary skills to perform that role, to the point a person with the role outperforms anyone who lacks it in that specific area, and most importantly, people have a strong, sometimes personality-warping compulsion to follow that role. One thing that is explored in that show is what happens when you don't wish to follow into that role, or what happens to people who get bad roles, such as a thief blessing or an assassin blessing. In that world, the thief and assassin guilds exist to help support people who receive those kinds of blessings. Because you have the compulsion to be an assassin even if you don't want to be, these guilds help to try to establish a form of order and regulation on these professions, to give these people a voice and legitimacy, and to try to direct what would ordinarily be a curse into a force for good.
A mafia like orgranization which extorted "protection" money from thieves might call themselves The Thieves Guild when shaking down thieves, who then come to refer to organization by that name. Thieves, being a group who can't turn to law enforcement for protection, could be more vulnerable to extortion than honest merchants.
In the last game I ran with a 'Thieves' Guild, they were officially known as the Locksmiths. But I left what thievery they did kind of ambiguous - they actually did mostly provide security solutions. They also traded in intelligence. Everyone pays off the Locksmiths for their security and for information on others' security. The setting had an annual contest between different kind of Mage Guilds and paying off locksmiths for information about the other guilds' activities during it is just part of the game.
Tax-Refomrs are; in Anime or elsewhere; often used to signal intellect or good leadership, only to then be off-screen. Can i have a moment of your time?
I like this idea! Given that d&d style fantasy often has dungeons and keeps filled to the brim with various traps, a "Locksmiths" style security guild could also have low level artificers who specialize in making and setting traps for local officials. Of course the local king is going to legitimatize the local Locksmiths guild and turn a blind eye to *some* low level illegal activity. Their the ones who know how to disable everything
I've thought about this a lot, how to make it a viable organization in my setting. I have a noble with ties to the adventuring scene of the kingdom who I'm going to have accidentally create a Thieves Guild. Magical items are dangerous, so recovering magical items before they fall into the wrong hands is important. My noble will buy them off of a specific fence so they're the most profitable person to unload magical items to, essentially taking them out of circulation. They will also allow a tavern to operate rent and tax free on their lands, as long as the recovered items aren't stolen from a recognised source (the noble house, shops within the noble's district, or the royal family). Murder and injury will not be tolerated to procure items. Any violation by ANY criminal will cause punishment in the form of taxation (or destruction if it's bad enough) of the tavern. This fence and tavern then is incentivized to self regulate all thievery in the lands, and spread a network of sub-fences to gather more magical items. Essentially, my solution is to employ them, punish really bad behaviour and reward relative cooperation.
Begs the question: What happens when there's no more magical items needing to be recovered? They don't grow on trees. Especially not the dangerous ones.
Ah, very good point. My setting has an influx of adventurers coming to prove themselves and dying (like Barovia except more accessable). Their reclaimed gear acts as fuel for this, in part anyway. What happens when the threat is finally dealt with and no more adventurers are dying? What happens when the noble proprietor is gone? Maybe the guild disbands, maybe someone gives them a new purpose, or maybe it becomes more dangerous like real world organized crime rings.
@@TinyHorseProductions Or maybe the noble gets mind-controlled or replaced by an impostor, allowing a villain or evil organization to get ahold of all those magic items....
Then you are a state agency. You can play a bailiff in WFRP. Your job was to be the collect road tolls or generally serve as the unpopular middle man between the graf and people.
@@SusCalvinA state agency in a country riddled with corruption may be indistinguishable from a criminal gang. If the police are robbing you as tend to happen in some countries I would be unable to see a destiction between the police and other criminal organisations.
@@rixaxeno7167WFRP characters fulfill career paths. You start as freshly fired stevedores, students, rat catchers, militia, bailiffs, students and coincutters. Instead of a level, you move on to a slightly more advanced career or sidestep to a different career. Each career opens up new skills and when you have learned all you can in one you shift to the next. This means you all start as fairly normal chumps and move on to become extraordinary chumps. Playing a former bailiff that sat watching a tollbooth on the many roads of the empire is pretty chump-y. In Delta Green you play federal agents. Half the PCs or more should have a federal badge, a gun and arrest powers. The others have a federal research grant, a federal military rank, a clearance in the intelligence community etc. You are part of an illegal conspiracy inside the federal government, the spiritual successors of the feds who raided the town of Innsmouth almost a century ago. The PCs can draw on the resources and authority of their office. Each adventure will note which federal and state resources can be used. You can cuff a cultist and drag them away, you can wiretap people, you can call the SWAT team.
@@michaelpettersson4919 You could play a dwarf repo man in AD&D, they liked using kits to vary different classes. You are definitely not a thief, you repossess property by removing it.
1) The mafia, tongs, and yakuza would fit our definition of guild (training, organization, hierarchy, and protection). In some cases, they even had a chair in local politics. Just allow that prison time is a possibility and you're golden. Heck, for that matter ninja clans offer a state-sponsored example of a thieves guild. 2) Some medieval guilds did feature a wide variety of different skills or at least those who mastered one specific skill. Blacksmiths, jewelers, clothmakers, and even writers were organizations of people who had a variety of different skills. 3) Fagan was the archetypical guild leader. For that matter, any decent godfather or yakuza would do. 4) In a fantasy realm where you need to go into dungeons and deal with traps, people with the ability to sneak around work for spying and infiltration, and where most of their skills work for military situations, "thief" is a valid occupation. Throw in that people like thieves in shows and movies, and it's only natural you'd see some sort of organization for them....
You forgot how useful it is when a Thieves Guild is supported or even created by a God. In which case the thieves are united by a common worship and doctrine, which can also give them divine blessings or powers.
@alexisnorman9446 They're more police force+tax collectors IMO. Vetinari created the guild because crime was difficult to track, the guild made it official, they had limits and quotas, they pay their taxes like anyone else, and more importantly it's on the guild to track down anyone thieving who's not following the guild's charter. Crime fell early on just because now there's a bunch of criminals tracking down non-guild criminals and taking their stolen goods, returning it, and fining the thief at best(inhuming repeat offenders). Stealing no longer became a good way to make money, no fence wants to work for a non-guild member, and getting caught puts you in debt to people who're happy to make a loss on paying the assassins guild to solve the problem if you hide/run because they can claim it back on taxes as business expense. The guild is rather fair too, theft takes into account earnings, savings, prior robberies(be sure to keep your receipts), all to ensure that no one can be taken for more than they can afford to lose, with rebates given if the guild member makes a mistake. That's basically how taxes worked in medieval times, a bunch of armed thugs from the local lord would come around, work out what you could afford to lose, take a percentage of it and leave a symbol to show you'd paid taxes so far, then disappear off again, while said lord acted as the highest judge in the land and their hired thugs a police force with harsh punishments and a love for mercenaries for jobs they couldn't reasonable do(like if someome fled beyond the lords territory).
Early triads would be nice. You have a sort of neighbourhood association formed out of mutual aid that might or might not get into other activities. The triad is a place to go for a loan or insider tips or a job. Roman street gangs who acted as the law in their neighbourhood is fun. We used those on the Moon. You probably pay off your local street gang if you're a pleb. The state has its own secret police and the aristocrats have their house guards but they only serve their employer. You are left to street gangs.
True. If criminals are shaking you down for money on a regular basis they better keeping that "right" exclusive by actually protect you from other gangs.
@@michaelpettersson4919 I mean the moment the line between neighbourhood watch, firewatch, chariot supporters, senate party and protection racket blurs.
The concept of a thieves' guild predates Leiber by several centuries. Cervantes describes one in the story “Rinconete and Cortadillo,” complete with mandatory membership, ranks, tests of mastery, a guild-sponsored chapel where members can give alms, and the specific use of the word "guild." I don't know whether Gygax or Leiber was aware of the story.
@@weylinsGygax was very very well read and studied literature, history, and artisans as well as many other things. Damn good chess players and cobbler too.
You can deal with with the skill-set problem by having multiple thieves’ guilds with multiple specialties. In my world’s Keerem City, there are four different thieves’ guilds. The Cloaked Guild handles beggary, pickpocketing, smuggling, and prostitution; the Order of the Red Dagger runs assassination, armed robbery, and extortion rackets; the Burglars’ Guild does breaking and entering, safecracking, embezzlement and street theft; and the Honorable Brotherhood of Coiners controls coin-clipping, forgery, counterfeiting, and fraud. I consider the question of “thieves’ guilds” versus “organized crime gangs” to be mostly a distinction without a difference. Real mafiosi do pay dues, do have hierarchies, and do train their members. The only real difference is that guilds may have formal recognition in law, and in some cases mafia gangs can approximate that too by bribing or blackmailing politicians and law enforcement. But in the real world, mafiosi have little ability to protect members against imprisonment; indeed, a prison term and the appropriate cell tattoos are often considered a sort of rite of passage among them. On the other hand, in medieval-type settings, imprisonment would not be a major punishment for theft; ain’t nobody got the time and money to keep petty criminals housed and fed. The typical punishments for medieval thieves were corporal: whipping, branding, mutilation, banishment, a term of forced labor, or in extreme cases, death.
Another way to see a Thieves guild is as a Trade Union for Thieves. Members pay Dues & a % cut of Spoils ...in return they get a form of insurance, pension for when they retire, legal counsel if caught, support by Union ie Union asserts pressure via bribes, witness intimidation so that the caught thief gets light sentence or case dismissed. union protects the unionised members from encrochment on territory by "Scab" Thieves. I think the Russian situation with certain thieves being recognised as Thieves-In-Chief has bearing on the idea of a Thieves Guild. There is a hierarchy that can be easily thought of. A "Fagin" Boss runs a crew in a certain neighbourhood/bloc ...he takes a cut from his group of pickpockets, prostitutes, drug sellers & runs a protection racket on any local shops/a section of a Market. He then kicks money up to the Suburb/Market boss who in turn kicks up to the Quarter Boss/Master Thief who then kicks up to the Guild-Master of the City who then kicks money to to the Town Council, Mayor, Local Lord, Judges, City Watch etc
Another thought spawned by my personal study of biker gangs: post-war groups of the spies, scouts, saboteurs, and the like. Some of them have enough loot scraped together to fund an endeavor. Or even that the leadership of the region decides they have these people that they can no longer employ directly but that they do not want to just "unleash" on their own country. So they basically give a tacit nod to them keeping a theives guild, so long as they make sure to keep certain targets off the list. Almost land-based privateers, really.
Gangs exist. The Gentlemen Bastards in Locke Lamora numbered five people at their height as a circle of con artists in Camorr. They had a bunch of contacts with other Right People they could rely on for simple services and information and kit without inducting them in the Bastards. You don't have a thieves guild alchemist on standby, but you know which black alchemists can be relied on and who can give a no questions loan on short notice.
Actually it does not because that should be a gang and not a guild. A guild has a very specific definition and what you said doesn’t fit that definition. 1. A guild is a representation for the profession and will advocate on the behalf of its members. 2. A guild holds a monopoly on the profession and in order to produce products in said profession you need to be a member. Punishments from the crown will follow if you don’t comply. 3. A guild is responsible for training new members and keeping trade secrets secret. A group of Rogues who only have a thin loyalty to each other are not guild. They might want to remove competitors from their turf but that has nothing to do with protecting the profession itself. They have no real reason to train new members for the same reason they do not allow competitors. Why have competitors among your own organization compares to from outside? And a group of Rogues are not going to hold any official political power, be allowed to advocate for criminals and will not be protected by the crown.
@@zacharyweaver276 Why do you think I am angry? Or do you see any kind of push back against you as being angry? Yes. What I said is what the video said, but that has nothing to do with that your statement is still false. It isn't a Guild because it is a gang. They are not interchangeable words.
It's funny that you bring up Robin Hood as one of the models of a proper guildmaster, in War of the Burning Sky, there was a thieves' guild that was very powerfully connected to the community. So much so that some of the membership voluntarily aided the public during the war. Rantle was famous for saving a noblewoman from an attack, when he'd intended first to rob her.
To me it's less "Should Thieves' Guilds Exists?" and more that having just one overarching organization controlling crime in your area removes that innate story potential of having conflicting gangs and other kinds of organized criminal groups to play around with.
Well those competing gangs are in a Darwin Struggle. Eventually the Competition leads via Survival of the fittest either to a worked Peace/Non-aggression Pact with clear demarcation of Turf and/or areas/aspects of underworld activity or it leads to one Gang crushing it's rivals/enemies & coming out Supreme. Having just one thieves organisation in a City still allows any story telling you want re criminal underworld ...just transpose the conflict to being between rival guilds in different cities or to conflict between local established Thieves Guilds & the Thieves Guild of Migrants trying to muscle in ie how Irish & Jews muscled in on locals then in turn were supplanted by Italians who then in turn had to face the inroads of Ukrainians, Russians & Yardies ...or between the Thieves Guild of one nation being in opposition to the Thieves Guild of another nation.
In older editions of dnd rouges could start thieves guilds at a certain level and then get into gang wars so being the only criminal organization in the area doesn't necessarily need to be the case the guild could only control certain areas with different guilds trying to take their turf or their is only one guild but their are smaller organizations trying to replace them like in the elder scrolls.
Great work in dismantling and assembling the concept. Perhaps a guild could begin (and continue as) an organization like we see in _Leverage_, going after the worst offenders, at least initially?
A "thieves guild" could start off as some ralying point in wich, if you speak to the correct person, you could sell any stolen goods securely, and then scale from that. It could give you the tools you'd need for the trade and access to information in exchange for money, and maybe use some kind of magic pact to ensure confidentiality. I can visualize how it could work. They benefit from reselling (far away) the goods they buy from the guild members. And the members benefit from having where to sell the stolen goods, make their plans or buy equipment, fake ids or entire new identities. Could probably have contacts in the city guard that allows them to move things in and out, and someone in higher ranks that allows it to be kept that way.
What you've described there is called a "fence". A fence buys up stolen goods from you, then moves them somewhere further away to resell them, where they are less likely to be noticed. It can be thought of as a form of money laundering. And yes, realistically most organizations of thieves, such as a "thieves' guild" would have to have a network of fences in their employ to aid in their endeavors. Some can get away with not doing it, depending on how exactly they operate, but most would need fences.
Sorry for the wall of text. Realistically you are right. But you missed a point about Jonathan Wilde in relation to the Thief in Fantasy RPG's. One of the reasons Wilde's organisation functioned at all was that if you are not poor, most of your stuff you is unique. A rulebook might list a statue worth some gold, but it is a unique object. Even a purse can be unique, not to mention rings and other items. That's why Wilde was able to 'return' the stolen goods to their original owners and why they paid the 'fee'., They wanted their stuff back. Sometimes it wasn't even about the monetary worth of the stolen goods. Often things were marked by the craftsman who created them, making them even more easily identifiable. If you steal those, you have about 3 options. 1, melt it down and somehow sell it to a goldsmith or make coins out of it. 2, sell it back to the original owner. And 3, smuggle it to another city were it can be sold. And that's object made of precious materials. Even jewels are mostly unique and essentially worthless to a thief. If you have nothing to do either, your thief is limited to steal coins and cheap stuff only. You wouldn't even have need to raise your skills beyond a certain point because it's neither necessary nor does it pay off. You can't even make a career of stealing trade goods as it sooner or later will pay attention to the one you sell those goods to. Wanna bet how quickly he is going to sell you out saying he thought you were a regular merchant? If he has a good reputation and/or good standing in his guild who do you think the authorities will side with even if they know that he knew he was buying stolen goods? I don't remember the movie, but it was about pirates that started to work with a government (I think a US city or state). One of them went rogue and they stopped him, but too late for a ship he had already plundered and sunk with killing crew and passengers. The 'good' pirates got in trouble later because one of their women wore a gown that was unique to the region and known to have belonged to a passenger of the ship. Or remember the Three Musketeers? How the Duke of Buckingham had to spend a lot of money to have the two stolen diamond studs replaced in record time? But what is a Thieves' Guild? Take a forgotten and not monster infested dungeon or a small cave a little outside of town. Criminals could start meeting there until it becomes necessary for someone to organize the place a little. Even if it's just someone that buys alcohol in the nearby city and sells it here. Some might be there to lie low for a while, trade news of interest for them. Others might have a small business there selling stuff people need. A blacksmith or his trade partner could make the rounds through the villages near the city and stop at this hideout to sell the tools that make up a lock pick set or the small knives needed for a literal cutpurse. Now you can stolen goods being bought by a travelling merchant and sold in another city. Is that a thieves' guild in the classic sense? No, but in many ways it functions like one. And it differs from a meeting place in the city that even if the authorities want to raid it, the rogues there would see them coming miles away and scatter. They might even catch a few thieves, but then what? Keep guards stationed there? Pay people to demolish the hideout so it's unusable? Another hideout might quickly be found. By the way, even adventurers that free stolen goods from bandits, a dragon or other monsters would have to return them to the original owners and hope they get a reward for it unless they want to be seen as possible thieves themselves. Unless the unique items have gone missing a long time ago. So realistically returning stolen goods doesn't really pay. Which makes the adventurers thieves no matter their character class. So, are thieves' guilds realistic? No. Are they necessary for a pre-industrial RPG? Yes. Unless of course you want your Rogue or Thief be simply another type of fighter. Which begs the question why you have a thief to begin with. How you make the thieves' guilds more realistic in your game depends on the world.
The movie you are thinking of is, I believe, "The Buccaneer" starring Yul Brynner as the historical pirate Jean Lafitte and his involvement in The Battle of New Orleans during the War of 1812 in America. And I think you are bringing up the most valid point about a Thieves Guild system. Even today, if a bank is robbed, the actual bills stolen have to be exchanged for bills that are not "hot" in order for the thieves to have any profit from the crime. So the most useful service a "Thieves Guild" might offer is as the middleman, the "Fence" who pays for the stolen loot and deals with the logistics of turning it into "untraceable" loot. And if it had a monopoly on this service, that would explain why membership is practically mandatory.
I think it works fine but it requires a vastly different use. it would require a few things 1 - It only in a large city 2 - It has at least 3 members connected in their wants and desires to reliably maintain the direction of the organisation. think of it like a mafia family. 3 - And the most important it has connections with people of authority a thief guild is essentially just Organised crime, it wouldnt really be a guild officially, but it would establish a front guild. In small villages it makes no sense to have a thief guild. in larger cities it would, as it creates a mix between, if you're a thief in this city you pay the fee to the Organisation if you wanna work in the town, the organization would then provide benefits, you pay your dues and do well by the ones in charge and get arrested? maybe we can help you out, or you know most important, Pay the fee or we break your legs jimmy. Guilds would also form initially due to the common understanding people have of safety in numbers. smart thieves would recognize that being a criminal has risks and if they join a group they can have a better chance of actually keeping their freedom and surviving. I also think many guilds would actually begin as a gang, a person of influence hires a group of thieves to do a heist for him, the group do well together and realise they can make better money and have less risk working together and slow more people are brought in. the gang would eventually need to also enter business themselves, and move from petty crime to White Collar crime like money laundering and loan sharking and stuff like that. In the long run though, people use thieves guilds so much as it's more simple to work with in a game rather than a complex web of organized crime where all criminals pay fees to a Kingpin to be allowed to work in the town. This is also speculation but I think wed have very little historical idea of thieves guilds or Assassin guilds for the matter, as they were not official guilds and if they were destroyed the state would opt to destroy all information about it rather than archive it.
Another thing to keep in mind for a guild like this in terms of a front is what would make a good front and the easiest one is Gambling hall. Think of it, you join the guild and are sent by the master to steal a golden idol, when you give it to him, instead of coin, he pays you in a writ worth 5000 credits at the gambling hall. you go it, exchange the writ for credits, gamble a little to look natural and then exchange your credits for gold, maybe 1 credit is equal to 1 silver, so you walk in with 5000 credits and wall out with 500 gold. it would also function as a method of cleaning stolen money. you cut a purse, walk into the hall exchange the 50 gold for 500 credits then back to 50 gold, money is cleaned.
Idea: War-time thieves guild. The guild is legal, and endorsed by the city's leader, on the agreement that they do not steal from residents. Only from visitors or from enemy cities when they visit or ahead of a raiding party. The last bit could be done as a measure to steal important items or intel before the chaos of war unfolds.
The religious avenue is an approach that fulfills all the criteria as well. One of my favorite characters was a Cleric/Rogue of Mask in the Forgotten Realms 3e. The "church" of Mask provides all the structure, training, motivation and trust needed, Mask (or his Champion) makes the perfect Guildmaster, being a god and all.
When considering longevity and viability in consistently being able to have some level of strength as an organization, give members reason to want in, and work as a cohesive system, a pure thieving guild doesn't work too well. You'd really want it to be partially in thieving as a method of gaining more resources, but just be a general crime group. They'd need some kind of central base with reasonable defenses and probably somewhat of a hidden location to prevent angry people from just overwhelming and destroying them. They'd also need some level of corruption granting influence over guards, jails, the ruling class, or all of the above. Finally, you'd never be able to totally have them depend on stealing stuff. They'd need things like protection rackets, fences which would likely be members posing as normal merchants, and to be effective in a typical fantasy world you'd need some combination of magic, physical defenses, and reason for the general populace to be at least somewhat afraid of messing with your crime group. They have to be threatening enough not to be wiped out or they'd dwindle in strength. Some members would absolutely have to include at least minor magical talent, and a good number would need to be straight-up thug types to guard other members and make any sort of shakedown system functional. Ideally, you'd also have some level of actual benefit the organization gives the people it 'taxes' paired with a penalty for not paying them. If they included prevention of another problem, such as reducing certain monster threats like guards would or cracking down on pest control in the form of a giant rat population or something similar, it gives at least some level of reasoning behind other people being more reluctant to hunt them down. This is where the common pattern of subterranean bases likely connected to city sewers makes sense. It's unpleasant surroundings would discourage invading them, it gives access to a place some nasty creatures they might be helping protect from live, hides them at least to an extent, and gives a place they can meet where nobody is ever likely to disturb them. In essence, it's partially a thieves' guild in that they steal as part of their work, but they'd function mainly as a darker and more feared version of city government, making them effectively just an unofficial branch of it that doesn't work so closely with the actual rulers. A general organized crime ring fits most worlds far better than a dedicated, purist thieving guild. This idea is even better if they include a way for regular people to contact them and hire them to bully other people into doing things, giving further use that somewhat wealthy and/or desperate people would take advantage of.
Longevity is interesting. A Great possibility for sustainability is having the Guild run by an Elf with Half-Elf Lieutenants. Solidarity coz of Race, language, culture and familial loyalty ie all the Lieutenants are the Elf's Sons :)
Honestly, odds are the Thieves' Guild isn't a Thieves' Guild, but an Intelligence Agency like the CIA. That answers a lot of questions. 1) What's keeping the authorities from coming after them? Because they secretly work for the authorities. 2) What are the thieves stealing to make this profession and membership worth it? Anything that the authorities might find valuable. 3) What's keeping people loyal to this group? Loyalty to the state. 4) Why would there be a need for high quality thieves? To get into highly secured areas that contain highly valuable things the state wants to get their hands on. 5) Why do people join this group? Loyalty to the state and wanting to serve the state. 6) Why did they form into a group? To allow the state to do covert things.
I really enjoyed this video. I think your discussion was extremely well thought out and thorough. I'm curling in the middle of running a campaign that involves guilds not necessarily thieves guilds, But even into that you've given me some great inspiration so thank you very much😊
Yes they should. Criminal gangs exist. Sometimes these gangs, in order to not end up in a destructive gang war set up rules for how to interact with each other. I would consider such a cooperation to be a thieves guild.
Mafia had the Commission ...a Council of most of the main "Family" Heads & each Mafia Don with their Consigliere had in effect their own Vizier/PM. They would elect a Chair-Man who would be known as Don of Dons. this can easily be translated to being a Guild-Master ruling over several Masters. Each family in turn had it's own ruling Council comprising Under-Bosses & The Lieutenants/Skippers under each Under-Boss. Guild in fantasy imho is just a more regularised/ formalised Mafia/Triad Tong and the word 'Guild" basically is just a substitute word for "Family" in Mafia Parlance.
I think people often overthink world building. Like they have to maintain an inscrutable level of verisimilitude. Most fantasy settings fall apart when reviewed thoroughly, but who cares? Have fun! So what if the geo politics is a thieves guild wouldn’t actually work? If that’s sobering you’re concerned about as a player, I’m not sure I’d want you at my table. That being said, I appreciate the creative thinking happening here. I just caution against getting too granular and putting so much time into something players will never interact with or witness.
As ever, a stimulating examination of the topic. I agree about a strong sense of community and some connection with officialdom being essential: in most of my campaigns, thieve guilds were strongly tied to, or even part of a given city or realm's spy network. When you have shape-shifting, mind-bending creatures like vampires and yuan-ti around, the authorities definitely need eyes and ears on the street...
Protection Money would be bread & butter Of Thieves Guild. Thieves Guild would operate just like the Mafia. Protection Money would effectively be just an extra layer of tax or already factored into Tax. The State might actually contract the Thieves Guild to collect the local tax with a generous cut. Thieves Guild would in effect be paid not to steal chaotically but to steal in an orderly fashion. Thieves Guild would regulate Thieves. Thieves would operate in Squads, Platoons, Crews ...a neighbourhood Fagin "Lieutenant" with a handful or two of Thieves/Pickpockets under him. He Kicks up to a Suburb "Captain" who kicks up to a Quarter "Colonel" who kicks up to the City "General" & then the General kicks up to the City Council, Mayor, local Lord. There would be rules about how much can be taken in heist, about limit on violence, how often they steal from certain targets, who they can steal from etc.
Discworld does the ankh-morpork Thieves guild pretty well, you have an alloted day in the year that you will be robbed in exchange for a small fee to the guild, and the guild keeps away all thieves that arent bound by that rule, so aslong as you pay you dont have to worry about being robbed if your not scheduled for it today.
He does describe the difference in the video. A Thieves guild in fiction usually makes most of its money from stealing, a mafia/crime syndicate makes most of its money from drugs or from extortion. Stealing is not (usually) a stable income so building your whole business model solely around that doesn't make much sense. A cartel leader can get a steady income from the drug sellers in order to pay off the ingredient providers, drug makers, drug traffickers, drug sellers, hitmen, corrupt cops, lawyers, judges, bills, etc. month to month, which is important because if they don't get paid, the operation stops. A cat burglar can leave a home with a lifetime worth of money, or nothing, and the guild leader has no way of knowing what exactly he took.
Interesting topic as always. I would love to see a similar video on how information guilds might form or grow since I feel they are another group that is overly shrouded in mystery
Maybe im just a little confused. But why make a point to differentiate a 'thieves guild' and organized crime? When everything you say about a thieves guild also applies to organized crime. To my understanding they are the exact same thing with a different name.
Every story where the main characters go to "the" big city to oppose the authoritarian leadership of that city includes a stop at the underground base of the local beggar prince or resistance movement that also opposes the authoritarians. Every single story. If your story doesn't have a big city, an authoritarian enemy, and main characters who are politically aligned with ANTIFA, then you don't actually need a thieves guild. If the rogue wants to start their own crime syndicate, they can, but it'd be really weird if they were also buddy buddy with the local cops. If there's no oppressor driving the good guys underground them there's no reason to have an underground movement for them to shelter in. That said, every big city should have at least one beggar prince collecting orphaned street urchins, and every really big city needs at least three rival crime families run by different types of mafioso.
I think you are taking the "Thieves' Guild" too literally. The term I've seen pop up is the 'Dark Guild' in Japanese stories, which isn't officially a guild all the time, but is filled with people who will do anything for money, hired guns, professional buglers, and the like. The way they keep in power is that any government official dump enough to try and stop them gets targeted. Make it where the 'guild' is powerful enough(politically or physically) that not being a part of it makes it likely you'll get caught, but that joining the guild and following it's 'rules' means you likely won't risk the worst sentences. The guild is also smart enough that they themselves aren't committing crimes, and don't forget the local 'police force' is usually a branch of the military, meaning you just need to keep the respective lord from trying to crack down with the guards. The guild could even use magic to keep members in line, contracts that would outline punishments you if you tried to backstab the guild, while also providing benefits for staying in line. Healthcare, training, safe places to stay, storehouses, that sort of thing. Heck, make 'thief-taking' a thing that mostly adventurers do, bounty hunting specific terrible criminals. The guild might even ask adventurers to hunt down wayward members who are no longer under protection of the guild, and the adventurers who stay in line get paid well for not cracking down on all crime, but only the crime the guild doesn't condone. Like say murder or other such terrible crimes. The guild is basically keeping criminals from doing whatever they want, while providing protection for those that stay in line.
A couple other comments have mentioned this but could you consider adjusting the volume mixing a bit louder or standing a bit closer to the microphone so you're more audible. I like to have longform tabletop videos like this on in the background when I do stuff but I can hardly hear your voice at all unless I turn my speakers up. Much less if I have as little as a fan running.
in my campaign thieves' guilds are just crime organizations, but due to the nature of it being a fantasy world with guilds, the crime lords branded themselves as "guilds" for propaganda reasons. Thieve' Guilds are also rare and don't exist where powerful organized crime can't survive. I also have used thieves guilds in evil countries to be "robin hood" type of heroes, still in it for profit but only targeting the evil lords of the kingdom and still giving a lot to the downtrodden people.
A video about "summons" and summoners/summoning and how they would affect a fantasy world would be interesting! My first video of yours was your necromancy one, i believe, you may retread some ground there but im still very interested in what youd have to say
I think the united worship of a God of fortune, luck, gold and thieves makes sense as a front, donations to a church like that could be disguised as a tithe for fortune or whatnot and fortune comes in the shape of thieves and worshippers os said diety stealing from some unlucky or (stingy) competitor while the Patron finds new found wealth in their future
Thanks for another banger video! I’ve always just made “thieves guilds” either gangs or a small group of individuals getting together for a job(s) with their loyalties, ambitions, operating scale, and influence varied. But often it just does end up resembling organized crime once it expands past a small group of people and maybe their apprentices or aids.
I've never joined the "Thieves Guild" in any of my many Skyrim Playthroughs. As for in a TTRPG game/fantasy setting I also would never join it. However, I could theoretically justify an organization that is essentially "Privateers" that eliminate actual criminals & enemies of the Realm in their own way. But are authorized by the Royalty/Nobility.
Are there any settings that handle a information guild? I’ve seen some stories where this type of guild has some how occurred. For some reason it doesn’t seem as feasible of a guild. Especially when you pay based on information value.
I get that the profession could exist in a small group. But I've not seen any reasonable idea as to how it would be organised and run as a guild. If they operate with the government approval how would that be mandated? Would the government pay depending on the value of the info, are the employs payed based on info gathered or is it set amounts each month, are they structed like a guild with a head leader or is it more of a counsel? I ask this in the context of fantasy and industrial settings, since this is where they appear most commonly. But in those contexts I'm not sure how feasible they would be as a big organised institution. Hence my original comment.@@zacharyweaver276
20:25 I disagree that monsters keeping the guards busy would be the means for which a thieves guild could arise... I think it would make it harder. As you said, the modern idea of a police force was invented fairly recently. But in a town where people are actively needing to guard against monsters means a lot more able-bodied people going around and being on the lookout, likely with weapons. And depending on the nature of the monsters, possibly patrolling throughout the town just-in-case. And if fighting monsters is relatively dangerous / common, there need to be backups / multiple shifts / etc. You don't want your town falling to monsters just because one guard was out sick and upset the delicate balance between monsters and guards. With that many people, you naturally get a psuedo police force if only just from the guards that are walking back to their homes from the ends of their shifts, hanging out in the tavern, etc.
It's not actually the case that they've "never existed", the most famous example is probably the "Court of Miracles" in Paris, I think too many people take the "guild" part far too literally. I think there's significant nuance, especially within the messy realm of organised crime. In Warhammer Fantasy, there are the usual gangs and organised crime (mafias/syndicates etc) organisations, but there's also the Cult of Ranald which is far more akin to your usual fantasy thieves' guild...
The fantasy iteration is far beyond the reality often as not, but there's definitely large components of them that are grounded in real world organisations or movements...
To the best of my knowledge, there's no modern historian who actually considers the 'court of miracles' as a historical secret society. It's one of those examples like the garduña where the conspiratorial imagination of the time invented a scary secret society that never in practice was as wide reaching or real as everyone believed at the time.
@@Grungeon_Master "historical thieves' guild" kinda falls into the problem that, if it's actually successful, nobody will know about them as they don't get caught in the first place. (like with Jimmy Hoffa possibly killed by professional hit: professionals know enough to not leave any evidence behind)
It could be a law firm, colloquially known as the thieves' guild since that's their primary clientele. Even have former criminals as informants, consultants and under the table spies for hire facilitator for the government. Similarly a law firm serving solo mercenaries could be the assassins' guild.
In a D&D campaign I ran, I had bunch of city states situated on a coast nearby a very agressive empire they were at war with. And in these city states, there was a large mafia (secretly funded by that empire) that openly operated called the Dockworkers' Guild. They were fun
I feel like another way to kind of make it work(whether as a thieves guild or just organized crime) is have them sell information to nobles or get tasks from nobles, like for modern examples, the cia worked with so many different organized crime groups, so it's definitely a way to keep your thieves guild from being destroyed.
The way I'm planning on running a thieves guild in my next campaign is that of the law for outlaws. Protection of the law provided to those who can't seek said protection from usual means.
The thieves “guild” in Oblivion was the best example, it’s not really an organization, it is centered around various fences that work together and the whole thing is held together by a single man with a cult of personality. However, a royal spy ring could certainly exist.
within the setting of the project i'm working on, there are a few thieves guilds however they do a lot more then just theft, this includes smuggling and selling of contraband
In my games, I usually have thieves' guilds rely on the classical definition. Namely, a sneak. If you need someone to perform an action undetected, you might go to the thieves guild. If that action happens to be illegal, well you're actually hiring the thief to clean your windows for 150 gp, whatever she does on the way to/from the job is not the guild's problem, nor is it yours. Other adventurers might subcontract a sneak to aid in their own jobs as well, due to some healthy noncompete agreements between these legit legal bodies
One possible take on a Thieves Guild(An actual Thieves Guild and not just a gang of thieves) is that it is the Thieves Guild of a particular city but does not engage in real thievery within said city but rather sends out thieves to neighboring cities to covertly extract wealth from said neighbor. This might work best in a setting where you are dealing with many city states that are at odds. There would still be issues to figure out such as how to avoid severe punishment when things go wrong and how to extract their captured members. As a matter of fact it might be the very Thieves Guild of your city that also acts as your counter thievery organization.
Well yeah. Gov intel services have always had interaction with Smugglers, Gangs/Cartels, Arms Dealers, Mercenaries, Assassins etc so it's not too much a stretch to think all that might be rolled into a Thieves Guild.
why would the guild need to be hierarchical? It could work more like pirate democracy where the captain (or guild master) presents as a ruthless dictator externally, but actually has no authority and everything is decided with direct democracy. It could also have started as a form of mutual aid and self-defence for people (especially orphans) in the slums, whose only option is theft, to protect themselves. The thieves guild could also have a role in authenticating goods on the black market. Alternatively, they could an indigenous peoples trying to recover cultural artefacts taken from them during colonisation by any means necessary. This could work for a quest based thieves guild run more like an adventurers guild. The guild's aims may even expand to include returning the artefacts of all colonised peoples. For a third possibility, the thieves guild could be a cover for a revolutionary movement. the revolutionaries may take advantage of conspiratorial thinking to pose as a thieves guild which is already assumed to exist. after all, a bunch of thieves may be annoying, but they're not trying to overthrow the state. The strategy may work even better if the thieves guild presumed to have always existed.
Something I think you kinda skirted around but didn't quite get around mentioning is Pirates/Bucaneers. If there is a very highly valuable resource that has to be extracted in a distant place and you have opposing factions interested in keeping the other factions from getting that resource, but they also don't want to just straightforwardly employ their own military/army for diplomatic reasons, they could employ thieves to sabotage their enemies and obtain the resource. This would also solve the issues of legality and having a steady income.
In my setting, thieves, smugglers, spies, assassins, and the like are all part of the same massive organisation. There are separate regional guilds around the world, but they all operate under the auspices of a single "shadow king" who is a seemingly omnipresent, godlike, faceless entity. They have a code of conduct and rules of operations so as not to draw undue attention from the various kingdoms and empires they operate within. One of the highest members of the organisation, a former legendary spy and assassin (and retired PC), is now basically an overworked beurocrat constantly burried in paperwork. She is always mildly irritated from stress when the party comes to her for help or advice even though they are working on contract from her most of the time.
Quick answer: Yes, just make them work like the maffia, which btw in turn are the continuations of guilds, which are the continuation of collegiums, etc., so it's not even that anachronistic. Long answer: The problem of "thieves' guild" stems from 2 public misconceptions: 1. Is the definition of criminal organizations, and 2. The definition of guilds. There is also the problem of them being just written poorly in general, but that's a moot point to discuss. 1. Criminal organizations are not BASED on crime, but rather have the willingness to do it. The further you go back in time the more legally gray mafia activities become, and the more historical you get the more you see that what whe would today see as organized crime, back then was just how communities worked. There were collegia in pre-imperial rome that went around and bribed citizens to vote on their patrons, or fanclubs of carriage racers who beat the shit out of the other team LEGALLY because the current dictator favoured them. And this got even worse in medieval times when shit was so decentralized that individual communities had de-facto autonomy on how they interpret and/or deal out law, resulting in quite a lot of instances where these communities clammed up and extorted, robbed or hurt groups of people they didn't like/ were rivals with, and not to mention the pogroms this and that minority had to endure when the majority had a lot of bad luck in a row. All these technically LEGAL, mind you, since there was no central authority whom anybody could REALISTICALLY turn to. 2. Guilds are as bloody nebolous a term as anything that ends with ism, and it's mainly thanks to the fact that whilst the roman collegium is what constitutes it's origins (which is what the popular definition of a guild is drawn from), yet everything under the sun that was serving a similar purpose has been dubbed a guild, even if was outside the roman sphere of influence and worked significantly different. Thusly, we have examples of guilds where there wasn't a hierarchy, where there wasn't camarederie between members, where they didn't pull wealth from the members to finance collective investments. In fact, eastern merchant's guilds fit all these three, as they were more like an information hub on trade routes, weather, military movements, etc. So then, how to make thieves' guild a thing? An option would be to use the term guild not as a descriptor, but as an indication of conglomeration, and the term thieves' as an indication for criminal activity. Basically, any gang, smuggling circle, black market, mercenary band of bad repute, and yes, even actual groups of thieves would be given the misnomer "thieves' guild" by the general populace to name something that may not be even that organized at all. Another option is to have actual proper guilds get enough power and influence so that they can engage in legally gray or even criminal activities without fear of repercussions, as they have bribed/ intimidated enough officials for them to look in the other direction... for a time. These would be once again called thieves' guilds not because they are guilds specialized in thievery, but guilds who on occasion break the law, and may steal or rob like thieves, but without getting caught like actual criminals. Third, and my last idea is to have the insitution of bailiff's being called the guild of thieves, just like how nowadays folks call the IRS a maffia. To make in an urban setting a hierarchical organization whose members are entirely made out of professional criminals that need to avoid getting caught doing their shady work, but also need to pay their dues to the group and if on higher the ladder then also teach the juniors about how to do crime... is complete bollocks. If anybody gets caught, they will snitch on the rest to get a better sentence, especially in historical times where it may cost one's life or limb to steal from the wrong place, so the group would be always at risk and would resort to have "walls" between groups and their higher ups, so if somebody gets caught they may not endanger the entire hierarchy, but it would also hinder coordination between groups and members greatly. There would be also, as you said, constant distrust between the members if all that is binding them together is the fact that everybody is a criminal. In fact, that's a very confrontation heavy work environment and the guild would quickly fracture into factions with closer ties to each other. Kinda like trying to make a convict union in a prison: the different races, religions and ideologies will immediately divide it into an impossible to unify mass. Lastly, there is literally no reason to seek such a guild's membership. If they tax your "income" you will have less money for drugs, and if they don't then there won't be any bail money, loans, or anything you could get from them. There is also no protection, everybody distrusts each other and if the boss gets caught soon you will be too. They also wouldn't disclose the best criminal methods or potential victims for the same reason, and also because it would cut into their own profits. There is nothing to be gained.
One that instantly comes to mind to me is Dimir, the spy/assasin guild that is so mysterious it does not exist. It also is one of the 10 guilds, always referred to as the 10 guilds. In addition, on any emblem depicting the balance of the guilds, their logo, somewhat between an eye and a spider, shows up.
Depends on the world. When I make a campaign a thieves guild is really each body of criminals that group together and they can vary greatly in how organized they are. Some have been large and well organized. The Cosa Nostra families controlled up to 26 cities and is a great example of what a thieves guild might be like, though perhaps they would call themselves something else while the public might call them the thieves guild. Off course, this would not exactly look like how D&D portrays a thieves guild, but when I'd run a world, the base rules would always get significantly modified with homebrew rules.
The Ancient Blade chronicles is a good example of a Thrives guild. The guild was just a front for the lords spy network.... Most members were not aware of that and joined (willingly or not) to get access to the "thieves roads" a hidden tunnel network along with the guilds ability to bribe the guards which was not possible otherwise.
I use my Thieves guild as the the cities local intelligence/spy network, finding themselves with theft and contracts and made official because they have so much dirt on all the other organizations
My favourite Theives Guild appears in the The Gods Are Bastards sereis, in which they're somewhat tolerated since they're the Cult of the Theif God, Eserion. Any society that would dare to ban them risks Eserion's wrath.
My Thieves guild involves a fantasy setting where guilds are organizations that unlock greater magic in people for a price. For most guilds it involves signing a contract to obey certain strict rules for the rest of your life and depending on the guild; taking on certain duties (the yellow guild regulates the collection of magical creatures and plants sort of like magic forest rangers). The purple i.e thieves guild places no requirements on the members to meet any pre-existing requirements before joining. Contrast with the white/healers guild which requires a spotless civil record and high academic achievement. The Purple guild does not require its members to sign any sort of binding rules of conduct contract and places no restrictions on what magic members have awoken in them. Instead Purple guild members have to take out a huge loan from the purple guild and must meet their yearly payments or be thrown in the purple guild mines. If purple guild members get caught stealing they’re also thrown in the mines. The system rewards those who bring in money and punishes those who can’t. Funnily enough the people who join purple guild thinking they can steal all the money they need to pay their loan, usually get caught and it’s generally those who take up a skilled trade who end up paying off their loans. The government and powerful houses of nobility have to s of money. And basically use the purple guild as a way to create spies and assassins with ‘illegal’ magic skills.
I never played elder scrolls oblivion long enough to know how its thieves guild works or who Gray Fox is but it sounded cool and I'd like more information on what you meant by how its a great example of a necessary leader of a such as guild.
Haven’t finished the video but I got the idea of an area in a large city that surrounds a temple to Mask (the god of spies and thieves). In the area stealing is still illegal but it is highly encouraged and is punished differently than the rest of the city. The punishment for stealing is having all your items taken and given to the temple or person that accused you. The only things that are forbidden to steal are what is necessary for life (food, homes, etc). Meaning thievery in this place isn’t done out of necessity or greed, it’s done in piety and honing of the craft. Also, monthly, the temple could take all the items donated to it and give them to the surrounding citizens, starting the cycle over again.
Realized something else that, while advanced, could get silly quick if used: Tiny Servant. 3rd level spell, requires touch, but lets you animate a nonmagical object, giving it tiny arms and legs so it can move about, and lets you command it as a mental bonus action with a 120 ft range. This could result in crimes where the thief doesn't actually carry the item away, but it only gets one item at a time and the object is absolutely obviously enchanted, plus it's 3rd level which means a thief is going to be fairly advanced to have it. Even more absurd is Animate Objects, 5th level, makes 10 things fly, can be cast through walls at a range of 120 ft and has a control range of 500 ft... you can even use one as a decoy.
I'm working on a D&D campaign that takes place in a city where the "Guild of Collectors" is a new thing - currently the city is ruled by a tyrant who understands martial supremacy and not much else. He's outlawed the guilds (who traditionally elect advisors to the ruler of the city) because they're a potential threat to his rule, and is generally running the city into the ground through his complete misunderstanding of how a city is actually run. So naturally, the guilds are kinda pissed off at losing their seats in the halls of power, and are operating underground with the help of a few different groups. One of which is a pre-existing organized crime group, who've kinda just adopted the title of Guild because currently they're more or less all in the same boat as illegal organizations. Given they'll likely play a key role in the revolution to come (which is probably going to be after the campaign actually starts, though I'm giving them the option of starting a bit after if that all sounds a little too political), they'll probably be at least tolerated for a time by the republic that follows. Whether they develop into a real guild or not, I'm not sure.
Regarding the effects of magic on crime, Detect Magic and Locate Object are game changers. Granted, Detect Magic is limited range and nonspecific and thus mostly of use for those searching a premises or even frisking people, and second level spells means either a 3rd level primary caster or higher other class or be capable of affording an Uncommon scroll/tattoo, but anyone who can field Locate Object will be a dangerous mark and any competent thieves will likely try to confirm who can gain access to such magic (or worse yet just natively cast it) and take steps to avoid them and possibly trick rivals into thinking they're vulnerable, while simultaneously fences (especially those who aren't Deep Gnomes or otherwise capable of casting Nondetection on something they're trying to liquidate) will likely keep secret storage lined with lead and keep more unique items that are more likely to be used as Locate Object targets in them for a month or two before they try to liquidate while using similar storage for any stolen magic items (probably only removing them when offering them for sale), and some wealthy fences might even have permanent Private Sanctums in their secret storage (although that is likely overkill). By extension, I can't help but think that lead should be regulated to try and keep criminals from using it to their advantage as well, thus making it more difficult for those who don't have it to engage in riskier trade in stolen magic items or just in general fencing at all.
Very useful video. My current D&D PC wants to take revenge on a guild and these ideas help with exposing possible weak spots that could be expoilted to infiltrate and take them down.
I still remember the time I went to the thieves guild to buy illicit goods. A hoodlum attempted rob me in broad daylight, and when I fought back, all of the thieves, including the shopkeeper I was buying from, instantly I was going down. Terrible business strategy to be honest. Mysteriously, a stray fireball burned the place down later that night. (For real though, I was about to strangle my DM because if that was how the thieves guild operated, NO ONE would go there. You might get pickpocketed in such a place, but why tf would a merchant about to get your money suddenly decide “you know what? Drop all your gold instead, I’m gonna mug this you with this guy in the middle of the guild. Didn’t help that I was level 5 and just accidentally vaporized the original pickpocket with a high rolled spell)
On my setting there are a bunch thieves guilds and as people said, are like organized or semi-organized crime, with a kingpin. The most "legal" of them has close ties with the official Dockworkers Guild and is mostly like the historical relations of the mafia and unions.
my fave thieves guild in media, have always been the Mockers from Midkemia series. an underground (literally) crime organization, that has members in key positions of influence in the city they operate. rulers and other important figures with the right connections have been able hire them for various purposes like espionage , and iirc they once stopped an assassination attempt on a beloved princess. operations like these kept them from being looked at by overzealous law types, that and they keep their members from going overboard, and other freelance criminals out. Another neat aspect, is their leaders identities have always been hidden from everyone(reader included typically) besides a few very trustworthy lieutenants, only being known by cool titles like The Upright man or The Sagacious Man
I think house Dimir in mtg is a great example of a thieves guild. They mainly steal info but were also believed to not exist for many years in the lore of ravnica even though there founder was a part of the signing of the original guild pact and were only revealed because of his schemes to take over the city. I could be wrong about this though it's been a while since i read the original ravnica set's lore
Calling it a "thieves" guild os usually a misnomer to downplay the broad scope of performance of which the guilds usually encompass. In most interperetations that i see, the guild is typically the central intermediary for most organized crimes from infiltration or espionage to murder or kidnapping. The "thieves" part is typically because it is the "softest" of their services and thus safer to market for business. Many stories i've seen have them operate in a similar style as to how the "Adventurers" guilds operate. You'd have someone come in for a commission(likely at much higher expense than the adventurers guild) at which point the guild members would be able to organize into their own groups independently to take on each request. Dues would just be a cut of each completed request.
I would like to hear your opinion about the Thieve's Guild (and perhaps the Guilds for the other business normally seen as shady or immoral, like the assassins, the beggars and the ladies of negotiable affection) in Ankh Morpork from Terry Pratchett's Discworld.
You had some urban legends from medieval times, and some thiefs on trial told that they were members of thiefs guild but when guards checked they found nothing.
I would consider a Thieves Guild to be a centralized point to buy or sell stolen merchandise. Making it a form of Merchant Guild, where you get paid based on the item's worth and risk of carrying it. And for financial backing, it can act as a safety net to return the belongings of its patrons, also making it a kind of Protection Guild. And so, it would act as a countermeasure to ensure that national treasures and divine artifacts don't fall into the wrong hands. :3 But on the topic of cat burglars, how would beast races fit into or be treated in such a realistic fantasy setting, and what kind of divisions could be caused because of it?
People say Thieves' Guilds are registered guilds?
I thought they use the name ironically to mock merchant guilds.
it's from people thinking too literally. "thieve's guild" simply refers to any kind of large scale criminal organisation in a fantasy setting.
See, the thieves Guild in my world works with law enforcement, settling debts that people refuse to pay, and keeping watch at night.
But most people are magically brainwashed so I guess mine is an outlier lol
And because other names of organized crime have cultural implications. If you call them a mafia or a yakuza or a triad pr something they all have more meaning and imply a language or culture that probably doesnt exist.
But protection rackets, territorial disputes, fencing, drug dealing, arms smuggling and piracy are all things a "guild" might be involved in. It is organized crime with a fantasy coat of paint. A crime family would be great.
@@kaemonbonet4931 definately how I run my "guilds" as mob families, but with a different name and coat of paint. Or, in my current Sci-Fi game, it's still called a guild, but it's stuck the players in the middle of a mob war fighting over territory of a 3rd after they collapsed, with the PC owned tavern smack in the middle.
This.
Feels to me like just regular organized crime- imposes rules and fees on territory and whoever defies those rules is punished
Nothing criminal about that, it's called taxes.
@@Archy_The-Wizard *Anarchy_The-Wizard
@@Archy_The-WizardIt's criminal because you don't have de jure government backing to do that. 😅
The Thieves Guild though may indeed have defacto support to do that & could indeed be de jure formalised by State.
State could have it's IRS operating & when they suspect someone is not paying the proper taxes they set the Thieves Guild to work.
Many old civilisations had "Tax Farmers"/Tax Collectors" who received a % of the tax they collected. It's very easy to see a thieves Guild basically being the authorised Tax Collectors.
Look at the Las Vegas mafia - they kept a TIGHT leash on crime in the city because their multi-million-dollar casino operations required that people feel safe to walk home at night with large amounts of cash on them. Keeping the petty criminals on watch to make sure they don't accidentally draw attention to your smuggling operation seems like a good idea, if you have the money and influence to get it started.
And if you can enforce rules, why not add a protection fee? Not only does it line your pockets, but it helps keep tabs on who's operating in your territory. And obviously, 10 silver a month is reasonable to not accidentally stab yourself 37 times before drowning in the harbor, as commonly happens.
I've always assumed that most "thieves guilds" are just standard mafia-style organizations that we just call "the thieves guild" out of inertia.
I like the Marienburg thieves' guild. There is no thieves' guild. It is a joke name for the loose mafia commissione-style gathering of gang leaders who meet up to settle matters. There is no thief guild membership, budget, charter, enforcement power etc. "Thieves' guild" authority ends the moment one gang leader starts a fight with another one, and they frequently do. Its authority begins when the other gang leaders pressure the conflicting ones into settlements. The gangs are balanced by how none of them hold complete sway individually, and the need to hide their conflicts from city authorities. The gangs hold properties, members, territory and all that and will enforce protection rackets.
Depends on their alignment I would think what you described sounds chaotic. A lawful one would be like government lobbying
@@ShadowedBattlegroundsCre-tk9md Though that would seem an odd thing for an openly criminal organization to lobby for formal legitimacy in society. Like if a Mafia Don said to a government official "Oh yeah, we're a Mafia Business" in front of his gambling den. It's a bit on the nose. There's a reason Tony Soprano is involved in "Waste Management". It's a cover, not the genuine article out in broad daylight.
The privateer system was similar to thieves' guilds. Organized groups of robbers with strict hierarchies of authority and rank. On the job training. Policing of non-members attempting to compete and members that violate the rules. Recognition from official power structures. It was obviously decentralized, but other than that, it checks all the boxes.
I just never made a distinction between a Thieves Guild and a Mafia/Cartel. To me, they're basically the same thing.
In practice, theyre often used interchangeably, but in definition, a guild requires a different organizational structure, and has broader responsibilities to its members.
Just as a company differs from a guild. And a guild differs from a union.
In most cases however the term 'thieves' guild' is nothing more than mockery, and all it really is is a crime syndicate.
One might just as well have a crime syndicate calling itself ", larceny incorporated"
@@Desdemona-XI in the historical definition yes, but nobody uses that definition in sufficient numbers for it to matter one bit.
"thieve's guild" is just a fantasy term for any form of organised crime, and thus the mafia or mob is _exactly_ what a thieve's guild should look like in a conworld.
to be fair mafia discourage crime so their less than legal activities are more likely to go uninvestigated.
To me a thieves guild is just a mob with an special guild like power structure
1 way in which you could make a Thieves Guild different from a Mafia/Cartel is if it like other guilds somehow has some pseudo legitimate/useful services. I also imagen that a thieves guild could argue to be somehow more structered and less volatile/destructive than a mafia or cartel. ''I lost my keys to this box does anyone know someone to help me open it?'' (maybe locksmith don't exist yet and people used a thieves guild first and out of frustration locksmiths became a job to limit the harm from their former guid members 🤣🤣)
I honestly think a Thieves guild would become a security consultancy firm, paid to test guards and spread awareness of pickpocket techniques.
And non customers get a demonstration for free, well the demonstration personnel would help themselves to a suitable compensation.
white hat thieving
Funny enough, if my memory serves, some security firms IRL *were* founded by reformed criminals. In other words, there's a real life precedence for this!
But here is the thing. There is no such thing as town guards as well in history. Keep men employed doing guard work is expensive when everyone are subsistence farmers. It should be the same as keeping an army mobilized at all times and that is expensive. We can only do that now and have a police force because how much wealth we have today.
In the past town guards were mostly just fire watchers. Old men and children patrolling the streets in order to check that none of the roofs have caught fire. They will not be able to stop many thieves.
Mostly, crimes were solved by the individuals. There is a reason lynching and mob justice is a thing.
An intelligence agency, a security consultancy, mercenaries for hire. A thieves guild is really just a slightly less ethical and legal adventures guild. A way for the wealthy and powerful of a country to hire assassin's and thieves to flex their influence and expand it. I like the example of Maven Black briar from Skyrim that literally used the thieves guild to destroy a rival brewery. It all exists at the behest of the powerful so they can create the illusion that there are laws protecting people, but not be beholden to them themselves.
In my world the theives guild doesn't earn income primarily by stealing, but rather hiring out their services to people wishing to recover items, gathering information, security consulting, a protection racket, and even detective work to catch non guild theives. They do do a bit of common theivery, but bribes are more effective if you don't already annoy those in power.
Man Grungeon master got me thinking of a wizard thieves guild leader playing both sides of the magical arms race. Developing defenses that they sell to the rich and then selling information on their weaknesses or the spells to counter them to his guild associates
Another "playing both sides" angle is imagine if the grand twist was that the KING is the actual guild leader themselves (or at least endorses their radically-minded heir, having sold their parent on the idea). The guild provides "dark money" for the royal family to use on projects potentially disfavored by the noble/business class (like social welfare programs for the poor), by targeting political enemies/distrusted allies (either seeking information while they're in the city for business, or thwarting their plans such as them having sent their own agents to steal secret treasures/cause chaos).
@@Vaeldarg OooOooh! So a kind-hearted politician (the most fantastical element of the potential setting) who actually tries to do right by his/her people. But keeps getting shut down by rival politicians and corporations. So he/she just goes full Palpatine but light side!!! I love it!!!
@@user-db4fy5ji8e And since is a royal, has the social training to be a charismatic leader, checking that box, and those masking the royal's involvement being trusted knights (ones trained as more like special ops agents), checks the box of the thieves' guild leadership having a strong bond with each other.
DnD Defense Contracting Simulator
So Chancellor Palpatine.
I think a thieves guild works best if they don't only operate on stealing items, but also collecting information and acquiring illegal goods. Any wise king will want some spies. Especially ones who can track down dangerous items and spirit them out of any strongholds or dungeons they find themselves in
The Sun King did not go down to the organised crime of Paris or Marseilles to do that. The french state had its own black cabinet of letter-openers and code-breakers, and its own network of informants. There was secret police responsible for the security of the state in early modern nations.
They were recruited much like other ciivl servants and army officers. Out of up-and-coming middle class families and low nobility. A steady job for the army or the buerocracy was a path up for low nobility with some but not huge land holdings.
@@SusCalvin well obviously the ruler has someone to make contact for them. They can't risk implicating themselves after all.
@@zacharyweaver276 The black cabinet intercepted mail. The crowns would have offices of these people at mail hubs to intercept and open mail, seal it back up and let it move on.
You have to understand just how little the Sun King cared if people knew he was doing this.
Then their basically an Information Guild that does thievery as a bonus service. Which is probably the most realistic take on a Guild like the Thieves' Guild.
Espionage is a form of stealing. Stealing Information very valuable to a Ruler, to a Merchant, to a Manufacturer. You've hit the nail on the head. Information brokering, need of State to send Agents to go after documents, retrieve items is the very reason a thieves guild would be useful to & tolerated by a ruler.
Sometimes a Ruler will need to circumvent neighbour countries ban on certain goods exiting their country so would employ Thieves Guild to Smuggle.
Thieves Guild might also be useful to a Ruler at sea as Privateer/Buccaneer/ Freebooter "Pirates" under royal commission to interdict enemy Traders or tax ships avoiding a nation's Ports yet sailing in it's waters,
The thief/assassin guild in the anime "Banished From The Hero's Party, I Decided To Live A Quiet Life In The Countryside" is a really interesting example, I think. In that setting, people receive blessings when they turn a certain age, and those blessings come with a specific role (usually a profession), which in turns gives them the necessary skills to perform that role, to the point a person with the role outperforms anyone who lacks it in that specific area, and most importantly, people have a strong, sometimes personality-warping compulsion to follow that role.
One thing that is explored in that show is what happens when you don't wish to follow into that role, or what happens to people who get bad roles, such as a thief blessing or an assassin blessing.
In that world, the thief and assassin guilds exist to help support people who receive those kinds of blessings. Because you have the compulsion to be an assassin even if you don't want to be, these guilds help to try to establish a form of order and regulation on these professions, to give these people a voice and legitimacy, and to try to direct what would ordinarily be a curse into a force for good.
A mafia like orgranization which extorted "protection" money from thieves might call themselves The Thieves Guild when shaking down thieves, who then come to refer to organization by that name. Thieves, being a group who can't turn to law enforcement for protection, could be more vulnerable to extortion than honest merchants.
In the last game I ran with a 'Thieves' Guild, they were officially known as the Locksmiths. But I left what thievery they did kind of ambiguous - they actually did mostly provide security solutions. They also traded in intelligence. Everyone pays off the Locksmiths for their security and for information on others' security. The setting had an annual contest between different kind of Mage Guilds and paying off locksmiths for information about the other guilds' activities during it is just part of the game.
Tax-Refomrs are; in Anime or elsewhere; often used to signal intellect or good leadership, only to then be off-screen. Can i have a moment of your time?
I like this idea! Given that d&d style fantasy often has dungeons and keeps filled to the brim with various traps, a "Locksmiths" style security guild could also have low level artificers who specialize in making and setting traps for local officials. Of course the local king is going to legitimatize the local Locksmiths guild and turn a blind eye to *some* low level illegal activity. Their the ones who know how to disable everything
I've thought about this a lot, how to make it a viable organization in my setting. I have a noble with ties to the adventuring scene of the kingdom who I'm going to have accidentally create a Thieves Guild. Magical items are dangerous, so recovering magical items before they fall into the wrong hands is important. My noble will buy them off of a specific fence so they're the most profitable person to unload magical items to, essentially taking them out of circulation. They will also allow a tavern to operate rent and tax free on their lands, as long as the recovered items aren't stolen from a recognised source (the noble house, shops within the noble's district, or the royal family). Murder and injury will not be tolerated to procure items. Any violation by ANY criminal will cause punishment in the form of taxation (or destruction if it's bad enough) of the tavern. This fence and tavern then is incentivized to self regulate all thievery in the lands, and spread a network of sub-fences to gather more magical items. Essentially, my solution is to employ them, punish really bad behaviour and reward relative cooperation.
Begs the question: What happens when there's no more magical items needing to be recovered? They don't grow on trees. Especially not the dangerous ones.
Ah, very good point. My setting has an influx of adventurers coming to prove themselves and dying (like Barovia except more accessable). Their reclaimed gear acts as fuel for this, in part anyway. What happens when the threat is finally dealt with and no more adventurers are dying? What happens when the noble proprietor is gone? Maybe the guild disbands, maybe someone gives them a new purpose, or maybe it becomes more dangerous like real world organized crime rings.
@@TinyHorseProductions Or maybe the noble gets mind-controlled or replaced by an impostor, allowing a villain or evil organization to get ahold of all those magic items....
Imagining an institutionalized thieves guild filled with IRS agents and repo guys
Then you are a state agency. You can play a bailiff in WFRP. Your job was to be the collect road tolls or generally serve as the unpopular middle man between the graf and people.
@@SusCalvin i know nothing about this but I love this as a worldbuilding idea
@@SusCalvinA state agency in a country riddled with corruption may be indistinguishable from a criminal gang. If the police are robbing you as tend to happen in some countries I would be unable to see a destiction between the police and other criminal organisations.
@@rixaxeno7167WFRP characters fulfill career paths. You start as freshly fired stevedores, students, rat catchers, militia, bailiffs, students and coincutters. Instead of a level, you move on to a slightly more advanced career or sidestep to a different career. Each career opens up new skills and when you have learned all you can in one you shift to the next. This means you all start as fairly normal chumps and move on to become extraordinary chumps. Playing a former bailiff that sat watching a tollbooth on the many roads of the empire is pretty chump-y.
In Delta Green you play federal agents. Half the PCs or more should have a federal badge, a gun and arrest powers. The others have a federal research grant, a federal military rank, a clearance in the intelligence community etc. You are part of an illegal conspiracy inside the federal government, the spiritual successors of the feds who raided the town of Innsmouth almost a century ago. The PCs can draw on the resources and authority of their office. Each adventure will note which federal and state resources can be used. You can cuff a cultist and drag them away, you can wiretap people, you can call the SWAT team.
@@michaelpettersson4919 You could play a dwarf repo man in AD&D, they liked using kits to vary different classes. You are definitely not a thief, you repossess property by removing it.
1) The mafia, tongs, and yakuza would fit our definition of guild (training, organization, hierarchy, and protection). In some cases, they even had a chair in local politics. Just allow that prison time is a possibility and you're golden. Heck, for that matter ninja clans offer a state-sponsored example of a thieves guild.
2) Some medieval guilds did feature a wide variety of different skills or at least those who mastered one specific skill. Blacksmiths, jewelers, clothmakers, and even writers were organizations of people who had a variety of different skills.
3) Fagan was the archetypical guild leader. For that matter, any decent godfather or yakuza would do.
4) In a fantasy realm where you need to go into dungeons and deal with traps, people with the ability to sneak around work for spying and infiltration, and where most of their skills work for military situations, "thief" is a valid occupation. Throw in that people like thieves in shows and movies, and it's only natural you'd see some sort of organization for them....
You forgot how useful it is when a Thieves Guild is supported or even created by a God. In which case the thieves are united by a common worship and doctrine, which can also give them divine blessings or powers.
The Ankh Morepork thieves guild is the greatest iteration of the concept!
It only worked because of Vetinari.
And they are more of a protection racket than anything
@@GoranXII Most of the Ankh-Morpork, as we know it from the books, worked basically just because of Havelock Vetinari.
@@Alche_mist agreed, although the Assassin's Guild predated Vetinari by some centuries.
@alexisnorman9446
They're more police force+tax collectors IMO.
Vetinari created the guild because crime was difficult to track, the guild made it official, they had limits and quotas, they pay their taxes like anyone else, and more importantly it's on the guild to track down anyone thieving who's not following the guild's charter.
Crime fell early on just because now there's a bunch of criminals tracking down non-guild criminals and taking their stolen goods, returning it, and fining the thief at best(inhuming repeat offenders). Stealing no longer became a good way to make money, no fence wants to work for a non-guild member, and getting caught puts you in debt to people who're happy to make a loss on paying the assassins guild to solve the problem if you hide/run because they can claim it back on taxes as business expense.
The guild is rather fair too, theft takes into account earnings, savings, prior robberies(be sure to keep your receipts), all to ensure that no one can be taken for more than they can afford to lose, with rebates given if the guild member makes a mistake. That's basically how taxes worked in medieval times, a bunch of armed thugs from the local lord would come around, work out what you could afford to lose, take a percentage of it and leave a symbol to show you'd paid taxes so far, then disappear off again, while said lord acted as the highest judge in the land and their hired thugs a police force with harsh punishments and a love for mercenaries for jobs they couldn't reasonable do(like if someome fled beyond the lords territory).
Early triads would be nice. You have a sort of neighbourhood association formed out of mutual aid that might or might not get into other activities. The triad is a place to go for a loan or insider tips or a job.
Roman street gangs who acted as the law in their neighbourhood is fun. We used those on the Moon. You probably pay off your local street gang if you're a pleb. The state has its own secret police and the aristocrats have their house guards but they only serve their employer. You are left to street gangs.
True. If criminals are shaking you down for money on a regular basis they better keeping that "right" exclusive by actually protect you from other gangs.
@@michaelpettersson4919 I mean the moment the line between neighbourhood watch, firewatch, chariot supporters, senate party and protection racket blurs.
The concept of a thieves' guild predates Leiber by several centuries. Cervantes describes one in the story “Rinconete and Cortadillo,” complete with mandatory membership, ranks, tests of mastery, a guild-sponsored chapel where members can give alms, and the specific use of the word "guild."
I don't know whether Gygax or Leiber was aware of the story.
I'd be surprised if Leiber wasn't aware of it. I'd be surprised if Gygax was aware of it.
@@weylinsGygax was very very well read and studied literature, history, and artisans as well as many other things. Damn good chess players and cobbler too.
You can deal with with the skill-set problem by having multiple thieves’ guilds with multiple specialties. In my world’s Keerem City, there are four different thieves’ guilds. The Cloaked Guild handles beggary, pickpocketing, smuggling, and prostitution; the Order of the Red Dagger runs assassination, armed robbery, and extortion rackets; the Burglars’ Guild does breaking and entering, safecracking, embezzlement and street theft; and the Honorable Brotherhood of Coiners controls coin-clipping, forgery, counterfeiting, and fraud.
I consider the question of “thieves’ guilds” versus “organized crime gangs” to be mostly a distinction without a difference. Real mafiosi do pay dues, do have hierarchies, and do train their members. The only real difference is that guilds may have formal recognition in law, and in some cases mafia gangs can approximate that too by bribing or blackmailing politicians and law enforcement. But in the real world, mafiosi have little ability to protect members against imprisonment; indeed, a prison term and the appropriate cell tattoos are often considered a sort of rite of passage among them. On the other hand, in medieval-type settings, imprisonment would not be a major punishment for theft; ain’t nobody got the time and money to keep petty criminals housed and fed. The typical punishments for medieval thieves were corporal: whipping, branding, mutilation, banishment, a term of forced labor, or in extreme cases, death.
Another way to see a Thieves guild is as a Trade Union for Thieves. Members pay Dues & a % cut of Spoils ...in return they get a form of insurance, pension for when they retire, legal counsel if caught, support by Union ie Union asserts pressure via bribes, witness intimidation so that the caught thief gets light sentence or case dismissed. union protects the unionised members from encrochment on territory by "Scab" Thieves.
I think the Russian situation with certain thieves being recognised as Thieves-In-Chief has bearing on the idea of a Thieves Guild.
There is a hierarchy that can be easily thought of. A "Fagin" Boss runs a crew in a certain neighbourhood/bloc ...he takes a cut from his group of pickpockets, prostitutes, drug sellers & runs a protection racket on any local shops/a section of a Market. He then kicks money up to the Suburb/Market boss who in turn kicks up to the Quarter Boss/Master Thief who then kicks up to the Guild-Master of the City who then kicks money to to the Town Council, Mayor, Local Lord, Judges, City Watch etc
Note that a lot of *actual* guilds had a pretty broad array of specialisms to cover, too.
Another thought spawned by my personal study of biker gangs: post-war groups of the spies, scouts, saboteurs, and the like. Some of them have enough loot scraped together to fund an endeavor. Or even that the leadership of the region decides they have these people that they can no longer employ directly but that they do not want to just "unleash" on their own country. So they basically give a tacit nod to them keeping a theives guild, so long as they make sure to keep certain targets off the list. Almost land-based privateers, really.
All it takes is a few rogues forming an organization to plan heists to form a thieves guild.
Gangs exist. The Gentlemen Bastards in Locke Lamora numbered five people at their height as a circle of con artists in Camorr. They had a bunch of contacts with other Right People they could rely on for simple services and information and kit without inducting them in the Bastards. You don't have a thieves guild alchemist on standby, but you know which black alchemists can be relied on and who can give a no questions loan on short notice.
Actually it does not because that should be a gang and not a guild. A guild has a very specific definition and what you said doesn’t fit that definition.
1. A guild is a representation for the profession and will advocate on the behalf of its members.
2. A guild holds a monopoly on the profession and in order to produce products in said profession you need to be a member. Punishments from the crown will follow if you don’t comply.
3. A guild is responsible for training new members and keeping trade secrets secret.
A group of Rogues who only have a thin loyalty to each other are not guild. They might want to remove competitors from their turf but that has nothing to do with protecting the profession itself.
They have no real reason to train new members for the same reason they do not allow competitors. Why have competitors among your own organization compares to from outside?
And a group of Rogues are not going to hold any official political power, be allowed to advocate for criminals and will not be protected by the crown.
@@Cloud_Seeker Sir you're just repeating what the video said which we both watched. Calm down
@@zacharyweaver276 Why do you think I am angry? Or do you see any kind of push back against you as being angry?
Yes. What I said is what the video said, but that has nothing to do with that your statement is still false. It isn't a Guild because it is a gang. They are not interchangeable words.
@@Cloud_Seeker sorry the tone seemed hostile. Also I was implying this is how a thieves guild can start
It's funny that you bring up Robin Hood as one of the models of a proper guildmaster, in War of the Burning Sky, there was a thieves' guild that was very powerfully connected to the community. So much so that some of the membership voluntarily aided the public during the war. Rantle was famous for saving a noblewoman from an attack, when he'd intended first to rob her.
To me it's less "Should Thieves' Guilds Exists?" and more that having just one overarching organization controlling crime in your area removes that innate story potential of having conflicting gangs and other kinds of organized criminal groups to play around with.
Well those competing gangs are in a Darwin Struggle. Eventually the Competition leads via Survival of the fittest either to a worked Peace/Non-aggression Pact with clear demarcation of Turf and/or areas/aspects of underworld activity or it leads to one Gang crushing it's rivals/enemies & coming out Supreme.
Having just one thieves organisation in a City still allows any story telling you want re criminal underworld ...just transpose the conflict to being between rival guilds in different cities or to conflict between local established Thieves Guilds & the Thieves Guild of Migrants trying to muscle in ie how Irish & Jews muscled in on locals then in turn were supplanted by Italians who then in turn had to face the inroads of Ukrainians, Russians & Yardies ...or between the Thieves Guild of one nation being in opposition to the Thieves Guild of another nation.
In older editions of dnd rouges could start thieves guilds at a certain level and then get into gang wars so being the only criminal organization in the area doesn't necessarily need to be the case the guild could only control certain areas with different guilds trying to take their turf or their is only one guild but their are smaller organizations trying to replace them like in the elder scrolls.
Great work in dismantling and assembling the concept.
Perhaps a guild could begin (and continue as) an organization like we see in _Leverage_, going after the worst offenders, at least initially?
A "thieves guild" could start off as some ralying point in wich, if you speak to the correct person, you could sell any stolen goods securely, and then scale from that.
It could give you the tools you'd need for the trade and access to information in exchange for money, and maybe use some kind of magic pact to ensure confidentiality.
I can visualize how it could work.
They benefit from reselling (far away) the goods they buy from the guild members. And the members benefit from having where to sell the stolen goods, make their plans or buy equipment, fake ids or entire new identities.
Could probably have contacts in the city guard that allows them to move things in and out, and someone in higher ranks that allows it to be kept that way.
What you've described there is called a "fence". A fence buys up stolen goods from you, then moves them somewhere further away to resell them, where they are less likely to be noticed. It can be thought of as a form of money laundering. And yes, realistically most organizations of thieves, such as a "thieves' guild" would have to have a network of fences in their employ to aid in their endeavors. Some can get away with not doing it, depending on how exactly they operate, but most would need fences.
Sorry for the wall of text.
Realistically you are right.
But you missed a point about Jonathan Wilde in relation to the Thief in Fantasy RPG's.
One of the reasons Wilde's organisation functioned at all was that if you are not poor, most of your stuff you is unique. A rulebook might list a statue worth some gold, but it is a unique object. Even a purse can be unique, not to mention rings and other items. That's why Wilde was able to 'return' the stolen goods to their original owners and why they paid the 'fee'., They wanted their stuff back. Sometimes it wasn't even about the monetary worth of the stolen goods. Often things were marked by the craftsman who created them, making them even more easily identifiable. If you steal those, you have about 3 options. 1, melt it down and somehow sell it to a goldsmith or make coins out of it. 2, sell it back to the original owner. And 3, smuggle it to another city were it can be sold. And that's object made of precious materials. Even jewels are mostly unique and essentially worthless to a thief.
If you have nothing to do either, your thief is limited to steal coins and cheap stuff only. You wouldn't even have need to raise your skills beyond a certain point because it's neither necessary nor does it pay off. You can't even make a career of stealing trade goods as it sooner or later will pay attention to the one you sell those goods to. Wanna bet how quickly he is going to sell you out saying he thought you were a regular merchant? If he has a good reputation and/or good standing in his guild who do you think the authorities will side with even if they know that he knew he was buying stolen goods?
I don't remember the movie, but it was about pirates that started to work with a government (I think a US city or state). One of them went rogue and they stopped him, but too late for a ship he had already plundered and sunk with killing crew and passengers. The 'good' pirates got in trouble later because one of their women wore a gown that was unique to the region and known to have belonged to a passenger of the ship.
Or remember the Three Musketeers? How the Duke of Buckingham had to spend a lot of money to have the two stolen diamond studs replaced in record time?
But what is a Thieves' Guild?
Take a forgotten and not monster infested dungeon or a small cave a little outside of town. Criminals could start meeting there until it becomes necessary for someone to organize the place a little. Even if it's just someone that buys alcohol in the nearby city and sells it here. Some might be there to lie low for a while, trade news of interest for them. Others might have a small business there selling stuff people need. A blacksmith or his trade partner could make the rounds through the villages near the city and stop at this hideout to sell the tools that make up a lock pick set or the small knives needed for a literal cutpurse.
Now you can stolen goods being bought by a travelling merchant and sold in another city.
Is that a thieves' guild in the classic sense? No, but in many ways it functions like one. And it differs from a meeting place in the city that even if the authorities want to raid it, the rogues there would see them coming miles away and scatter. They might even catch a few thieves, but then what? Keep guards stationed there? Pay people to demolish the hideout so it's unusable? Another hideout might quickly be found.
By the way, even adventurers that free stolen goods from bandits, a dragon or other monsters would have to return them to the original owners and hope they get a reward for it unless they want to be seen as possible thieves themselves. Unless the unique items have gone missing a long time ago. So realistically returning stolen goods doesn't really pay. Which makes the adventurers thieves no matter their character class.
So, are thieves' guilds realistic? No. Are they necessary for a pre-industrial RPG? Yes. Unless of course you want your Rogue or Thief be simply another type of fighter. Which begs the question why you have a thief to begin with.
How you make the thieves' guilds more realistic in your game depends on the world.
The movie you are thinking of is, I believe, "The Buccaneer" starring Yul Brynner as the historical pirate Jean Lafitte and his involvement in The Battle of New Orleans during the War of 1812 in America.
And I think you are bringing up the most valid point about a Thieves Guild system. Even today, if a bank is robbed, the actual bills stolen have to be exchanged for bills that are not "hot" in order for the thieves to have any profit from the crime. So the most useful service a "Thieves Guild" might offer is as the middleman, the "Fence" who pays for the stolen loot and deals with the logistics of turning it into "untraceable" loot. And if it had a monopoly on this service, that would explain why membership is practically mandatory.
I think it works fine but it requires a vastly different use. it would require a few things
1 - It only in a large city
2 - It has at least 3 members connected in their wants and desires to reliably maintain the direction of the organisation. think of it like a mafia family.
3 - And the most important it has connections with people of authority
a thief guild is essentially just Organised crime, it wouldnt really be a guild officially, but it would establish a front guild. In small villages it makes no sense to have a thief guild. in larger cities it would, as it creates a mix between, if you're a thief in this city you pay the fee to the Organisation if you wanna work in the town, the organization would then provide benefits, you pay your dues and do well by the ones in charge and get arrested? maybe we can help you out, or you know most important, Pay the fee or we break your legs jimmy.
Guilds would also form initially due to the common understanding people have of safety in numbers. smart thieves would recognize that being a criminal has risks and if they join a group they can have a better chance of actually keeping their freedom and surviving. I also think many guilds would actually begin as a gang, a person of influence hires a group of thieves to do a heist for him, the group do well together and realise they can make better money and have less risk working together and slow more people are brought in. the gang would eventually need to also enter business themselves, and move from petty crime to White Collar crime like money laundering and loan sharking and stuff like that.
In the long run though, people use thieves guilds so much as it's more simple to work with in a game rather than a complex web of organized crime where all criminals pay fees to a Kingpin to be allowed to work in the town. This is also speculation but I think wed have very little historical idea of thieves guilds or Assassin guilds for the matter, as they were not official guilds and if they were destroyed the state would opt to destroy all information about it rather than archive it.
Another thing to keep in mind for a guild like this in terms of a front is what would make a good front and the easiest one is Gambling hall.
Think of it, you join the guild and are sent by the master to steal a golden idol, when you give it to him, instead of coin, he pays you in a writ worth 5000 credits at the gambling hall. you go it, exchange the writ for credits, gamble a little to look natural and then exchange your credits for gold, maybe 1 credit is equal to 1 silver, so you walk in with 5000 credits and wall out with 500 gold.
it would also function as a method of cleaning stolen money. you cut a purse, walk into the hall exchange the 50 gold for 500 credits then back to 50 gold, money is cleaned.
Idea: War-time thieves guild. The guild is legal, and endorsed by the city's leader, on the agreement that they do not steal from residents. Only from visitors or from enemy cities when they visit or ahead of a raiding party. The last bit could be done as a measure to steal important items or intel before the chaos of war unfolds.
The religious avenue is an approach that fulfills all the criteria as well. One of my favorite characters was a Cleric/Rogue of Mask in the Forgotten Realms 3e. The "church" of Mask provides all the structure, training, motivation and trust needed, Mask (or his Champion) makes the perfect Guildmaster, being a god and all.
To be honest, I've always played thieves' guilds as mafia outfits.
When considering longevity and viability in consistently being able to have some level of strength as an organization, give members reason to want in, and work as a cohesive system, a pure thieving guild doesn't work too well. You'd really want it to be partially in thieving as a method of gaining more resources, but just be a general crime group.
They'd need some kind of central base with reasonable defenses and probably somewhat of a hidden location to prevent angry people from just overwhelming and destroying them. They'd also need some level of corruption granting influence over guards, jails, the ruling class, or all of the above. Finally, you'd never be able to totally have them depend on stealing stuff. They'd need things like protection rackets, fences which would likely be members posing as normal merchants, and to be effective in a typical fantasy world you'd need some combination of magic, physical defenses, and reason for the general populace to be at least somewhat afraid of messing with your crime group. They have to be threatening enough not to be wiped out or they'd dwindle in strength.
Some members would absolutely have to include at least minor magical talent, and a good number would need to be straight-up thug types to guard other members and make any sort of shakedown system functional. Ideally, you'd also have some level of actual benefit the organization gives the people it 'taxes' paired with a penalty for not paying them. If they included prevention of another problem, such as reducing certain monster threats like guards would or cracking down on pest control in the form of a giant rat population or something similar, it gives at least some level of reasoning behind other people being more reluctant to hunt them down.
This is where the common pattern of subterranean bases likely connected to city sewers makes sense. It's unpleasant surroundings would discourage invading them, it gives access to a place some nasty creatures they might be helping protect from live, hides them at least to an extent, and gives a place they can meet where nobody is ever likely to disturb them. In essence, it's partially a thieves' guild in that they steal as part of their work, but they'd function mainly as a darker and more feared version of city government, making them effectively just an unofficial branch of it that doesn't work so closely with the actual rulers. A general organized crime ring fits most worlds far better than a dedicated, purist thieving guild. This idea is even better if they include a way for regular people to contact them and hire them to bully other people into doing things, giving further use that somewhat wealthy and/or desperate people would take advantage of.
Longevity is interesting. A Great possibility for sustainability is having the Guild run by an Elf with Half-Elf Lieutenants. Solidarity coz of Race, language, culture and familial loyalty ie all the Lieutenants are the Elf's Sons :)
This was really well thought out and has inspired some questions for a future thieves' guild that I'm planning. Thank you!
This is the first video I have seen of yours. It's very helpful. Have a good day. I have subbed and will be looking at your other stuff.
Honestly, odds are the Thieves' Guild isn't a Thieves' Guild, but an Intelligence Agency like the CIA.
That answers a lot of questions.
1) What's keeping the authorities from coming after them?
Because they secretly work for the authorities.
2) What are the thieves stealing to make this profession and membership worth it?
Anything that the authorities might find valuable.
3) What's keeping people loyal to this group?
Loyalty to the state.
4) Why would there be a need for high quality thieves?
To get into highly secured areas that contain highly valuable things the state wants to get their hands on.
5) Why do people join this group?
Loyalty to the state and wanting to serve the state.
6) Why did they form into a group?
To allow the state to do covert things.
I really enjoyed this video. I think your discussion was extremely well thought out and thorough. I'm curling in the middle of running a campaign that involves guilds not necessarily thieves guilds, But even into that you've given me some great inspiration so thank you very much😊
Yes they should. Criminal gangs exist. Sometimes these gangs, in order to not end up in a destructive gang war set up rules for how to interact with each other. I would consider such a cooperation to be a thieves guild.
Mafia had the Commission ...a Council of most of the main "Family" Heads & each Mafia Don with their Consigliere had in effect their own Vizier/PM.
They would elect a Chair-Man who would be known as Don of Dons. this can easily be translated to being a Guild-Master ruling over several Masters.
Each family in turn had it's own ruling Council comprising Under-Bosses & The Lieutenants/Skippers under each Under-Boss.
Guild in fantasy imho is just a more regularised/ formalised Mafia/Triad Tong and the word 'Guild" basically is just a substitute word for "Family" in Mafia Parlance.
I think people often overthink world building. Like they have to maintain an inscrutable level of verisimilitude. Most fantasy settings fall apart when reviewed thoroughly, but who cares? Have fun! So what if the geo politics is a thieves guild wouldn’t actually work? If that’s sobering you’re concerned about as a player, I’m not sure I’d want you at my table.
That being said, I appreciate the creative thinking happening here. I just caution against getting too granular and putting so much time into something players will never interact with or witness.
As ever, a stimulating examination of the topic. I agree about a strong sense of community and some connection with officialdom being essential: in most of my campaigns, thieve guilds were strongly tied to, or even part of a given city or realm's spy network. When you have shape-shifting, mind-bending creatures like vampires and yuan-ti around, the authorities definitely need eyes and ears on the street...
Amazing rapid fire video! Love your style and keep being awesome!
Protection Money would be bread & butter Of Thieves Guild. Thieves Guild would operate just like the Mafia. Protection Money would effectively be just an extra layer of tax or already factored into Tax. The State might actually contract the Thieves Guild to collect the local tax with a generous cut. Thieves Guild would in effect be paid not to steal chaotically but to steal in an orderly fashion. Thieves Guild would regulate Thieves. Thieves would operate in Squads, Platoons, Crews ...a neighbourhood Fagin "Lieutenant" with a handful or two of Thieves/Pickpockets under him. He Kicks up to a Suburb "Captain" who kicks up to a Quarter "Colonel" who kicks up to the City "General" & then the General kicks up to the City Council, Mayor, local Lord. There would be rules about how much can be taken in heist, about limit on violence, how often they steal from certain targets, who they can steal from etc.
Discworld does the ankh-morpork Thieves guild pretty well, you have an alloted day in the year that you will be robbed in exchange for a small fee to the guild, and the guild keeps away all thieves that arent bound by that rule, so aslong as you pay you dont have to worry about being robbed if your not scheduled for it today.
Isn't a "thieve's guild" basically just an organised crime syndicate or a mafia?
Pretty sure thats what we're all thinking.
He does describe the difference in the video. A Thieves guild in fiction usually makes most of its money from stealing, a mafia/crime syndicate makes most of its money from drugs or from extortion. Stealing is not (usually) a stable income so building your whole business model solely around that doesn't make much sense.
A cartel leader can get a steady income from the drug sellers in order to pay off the ingredient providers, drug makers, drug traffickers, drug sellers, hitmen, corrupt cops, lawyers, judges, bills, etc. month to month, which is important because if they don't get paid, the operation stops. A cat burglar can leave a home with a lifetime worth of money, or nothing, and the guild leader has no way of knowing what exactly he took.
They could also be worshipers of a god of thieves.
Interesting topic as always. I would love to see a similar video on how information guilds might form or grow since I feel they are another group that is overly shrouded in mystery
This was such an interesting viewpoint. I’m rethinking some things about my upcoming campaign now. Thanks for the insight!
Another great and thoughtful video. It's good to see a breakdown of how these guilds would fall apart in most settings.
Maybe im just a little confused. But why make a point to differentiate a 'thieves guild' and organized crime? When everything you say about a thieves guild also applies to organized crime.
To my understanding they are the exact same thing with a different name.
Every story where the main characters go to "the" big city to oppose the authoritarian leadership of that city includes a stop at the underground base of the local beggar prince or resistance movement that also opposes the authoritarians. Every single story.
If your story doesn't have a big city, an authoritarian enemy, and main characters who are politically aligned with ANTIFA, then you don't actually need a thieves guild.
If the rogue wants to start their own crime syndicate, they can, but it'd be really weird if they were also buddy buddy with the local cops.
If there's no oppressor driving the good guys underground them there's no reason to have an underground movement for them to shelter in.
That said, every big city should have at least one beggar prince collecting orphaned street urchins, and every really big city needs at least three rival crime families run by different types of mafioso.
I think you are taking the "Thieves' Guild" too literally. The term I've seen pop up is the 'Dark Guild' in Japanese stories, which isn't officially a guild all the time, but is filled with people who will do anything for money, hired guns, professional buglers, and the like. The way they keep in power is that any government official dump enough to try and stop them gets targeted.
Make it where the 'guild' is powerful enough(politically or physically) that not being a part of it makes it likely you'll get caught, but that joining the guild and following it's 'rules' means you likely won't risk the worst sentences. The guild is also smart enough that they themselves aren't committing crimes, and don't forget the local 'police force' is usually a branch of the military, meaning you just need to keep the respective lord from trying to crack down with the guards.
The guild could even use magic to keep members in line, contracts that would outline punishments you if you tried to backstab the guild, while also providing benefits for staying in line. Healthcare, training, safe places to stay, storehouses, that sort of thing.
Heck, make 'thief-taking' a thing that mostly adventurers do, bounty hunting specific terrible criminals. The guild might even ask adventurers to hunt down wayward members who are no longer under protection of the guild, and the adventurers who stay in line get paid well for not cracking down on all crime, but only the crime the guild doesn't condone. Like say murder or other such terrible crimes. The guild is basically keeping criminals from doing whatever they want, while providing protection for those that stay in line.
A couple other comments have mentioned this but could you consider adjusting the volume mixing a bit louder or standing a bit closer to the microphone so you're more audible. I like to have longform tabletop videos like this on in the background when I do stuff but I can hardly hear your voice at all unless I turn my speakers up. Much less if I have as little as a fan running.
I love ALL the grungeon master videos
We love to see it. Dungeoncraft has started a trend!
in my campaign thieves' guilds are just crime organizations, but due to the nature of it being a fantasy world with guilds, the crime lords branded themselves as "guilds" for propaganda reasons. Thieve' Guilds are also rare and don't exist where powerful organized crime can't survive. I also have used thieves guilds in evil countries to be "robin hood" type of heroes, still in it for profit but only targeting the evil lords of the kingdom and still giving a lot to the downtrodden people.
A video about "summons" and summoners/summoning and how they would affect a fantasy world would be interesting! My first video of yours was your necromancy one, i believe, you may retread some ground there but im still very interested in what youd have to say
I don't play RPG, but I thoroughly enjoy your discussion of elements of the fantasy world genre. Very thought-provoking and interesting. Thanks!
I think the united worship of a God of fortune, luck, gold and thieves makes sense as a front, donations to a church like that could be disguised as a tithe for fortune or whatnot and fortune comes in the shape of thieves and worshippers os said diety stealing from some unlucky or (stingy) competitor while the Patron finds new found wealth in their future
Thanks for another banger video! I’ve always just made “thieves guilds” either gangs or a small group of individuals getting together for a job(s) with their loyalties, ambitions, operating scale, and influence varied. But often it just does end up resembling organized crime once it expands past a small group of people and maybe their apprentices or aids.
I've never joined the "Thieves Guild" in any of my many Skyrim Playthroughs.
As for in a TTRPG game/fantasy setting I also would never join it. However, I could theoretically justify an organization that is essentially "Privateers" that eliminate actual criminals & enemies of the Realm in their own way. But are authorized by the Royalty/Nobility.
Are there any settings that handle a information guild?
I’ve seen some stories where this type of guild has some how occurred. For some reason it doesn’t seem as feasible of a guild.
Especially when you pay based on information value.
Information brokers
I get that the profession could exist in a small group. But I've not seen any reasonable idea as to how it would be organised and run as a guild.
If they operate with the government approval how would that be mandated? Would the government pay depending on the value of the info, are the employs payed based on info gathered or is it set amounts each month, are they structed like a guild with a head leader or is it more of a counsel?
I ask this in the context of fantasy and industrial settings, since this is where they appear most commonly. But in those contexts I'm not sure how feasible they would be as a big organised institution.
Hence my original comment.@@zacharyweaver276
20:25 I disagree that monsters keeping the guards busy would be the means for which a thieves guild could arise... I think it would make it harder.
As you said, the modern idea of a police force was invented fairly recently. But in a town where people are actively needing to guard against monsters means a lot more able-bodied people going around and being on the lookout, likely with weapons. And depending on the nature of the monsters, possibly patrolling throughout the town just-in-case. And if fighting monsters is relatively dangerous / common, there need to be backups / multiple shifts / etc. You don't want your town falling to monsters just because one guard was out sick and upset the delicate balance between monsters and guards.
With that many people, you naturally get a psuedo police force if only just from the guards that are walking back to their homes from the ends of their shifts, hanging out in the tavern, etc.
It's not actually the case that they've "never existed", the most famous example is probably the "Court of Miracles" in Paris, I think too many people take the "guild" part far too literally. I think there's significant nuance, especially within the messy realm of organised crime. In Warhammer Fantasy, there are the usual gangs and organised crime (mafias/syndicates etc) organisations, but there's also the Cult of Ranald which is far more akin to your usual fantasy thieves' guild...
The fantasy iteration is far beyond the reality often as not, but there's definitely large components of them that are grounded in real world organisations or movements...
To the best of my knowledge, there's no modern historian who actually considers the 'court of miracles' as a historical secret society. It's one of those examples like the garduña where the conspiratorial imagination of the time invented a scary secret society that never in practice was as wide reaching or real as everyone believed at the time.
@@Grungeon_Master "historical thieves' guild" kinda falls into the problem that, if it's actually successful, nobody will know about them as they don't get caught in the first place. (like with Jimmy Hoffa possibly killed by professional hit: professionals know enough to not leave any evidence behind)
Rather than operate in the country they reside, perhaps have a thieve's guild that steals from neighboring countries sort of like privateers.
It could be a law firm, colloquially known as the thieves' guild since that's their primary clientele. Even have former criminals as informants, consultants and under the table spies for hire facilitator for the government.
Similarly a law firm serving solo mercenaries could be the assassins' guild.
In a D&D campaign I ran, I had bunch of city states situated on a coast nearby a very agressive empire they were at war with. And in these city states, there was a large mafia (secretly funded by that empire) that openly operated called the Dockworkers' Guild. They were fun
I feel like another way to kind of make it work(whether as a thieves guild or just organized crime) is have them sell information to nobles or get tasks from nobles, like for modern examples, the cia worked with so many different organized crime groups, so it's definitely a way to keep your thieves guild from being destroyed.
The way I'm planning on running a thieves guild in my next campaign is that of the law for outlaws. Protection of the law provided to those who can't seek said protection from usual means.
You brought up some really good points to consider.
The thieves “guild” in Oblivion was the best example, it’s not really an organization, it is centered around various fences that work together and the whole thing is held together by a single man with a cult of personality. However, a royal spy ring could certainly exist.
21:20 I swear I thought you were going to say kobold, until I realised DOESNT let ego get in the way
within the setting of the project i'm working on, there are a few thieves guilds however they do a lot more then just theft, this includes smuggling and selling of contraband
I love ALL of The Grungeon Master videos!
In my games, I usually have thieves' guilds rely on the classical definition. Namely, a sneak. If you need someone to perform an action undetected, you might go to the thieves guild. If that action happens to be illegal, well you're actually hiring the thief to clean your windows for 150 gp, whatever she does on the way to/from the job is not the guild's problem, nor is it yours. Other adventurers might subcontract a sneak to aid in their own jobs as well, due to some healthy noncompete agreements between these legit legal bodies
One possible take on a Thieves Guild(An actual Thieves Guild and not just a gang of thieves) is that it is the Thieves Guild of a particular city but does not engage in real thievery within said city but rather sends out thieves to neighboring cities to covertly extract wealth from said neighbor. This might work best in a setting where you are dealing with many city states that are at odds. There would still be issues to figure out such as how to avoid severe punishment when things go wrong and how to extract their captured members. As a matter of fact it might be the very Thieves Guild of your city that also acts as your counter thievery organization.
Yes. Thieves under warrant of the King just like UK gave Pirate Licences to prey on enemy Trader Ships during wartime or as part of Colonial Fighting.
that's just a secret service not unlike the KGB, CIA, ISI etc
Well yeah. Gov intel services have always had interaction with Smugglers, Gangs/Cartels, Arms Dealers, Mercenaries, Assassins etc so it's not too much a stretch to think all that might be rolled into a Thieves Guild.
why would the guild need to be hierarchical? It could work more like pirate democracy where the captain (or guild master) presents as a ruthless dictator externally, but actually has no authority and everything is decided with direct democracy. It could also have started as a form of mutual aid and self-defence for people (especially orphans) in the slums, whose only option is theft, to protect themselves. The thieves guild could also have a role in authenticating goods on the black market.
Alternatively, they could an indigenous peoples trying to recover cultural artefacts taken from them during colonisation by any means necessary. This could work for a quest based thieves guild run more like an adventurers guild. The guild's aims may even expand to include returning the artefacts of all colonised peoples.
For a third possibility, the thieves guild could be a cover for a revolutionary movement. the revolutionaries may take advantage of conspiratorial thinking to pose as a thieves guild which is already assumed to exist. after all, a bunch of thieves may be annoying, but they're not trying to overthrow the state. The strategy may work even better if the thieves guild presumed to have always existed.
Something I think you kinda skirted around but didn't quite get around mentioning is Pirates/Bucaneers. If there is a very highly valuable resource that has to be extracted in a distant place and you have opposing factions interested in keeping the other factions from getting that resource, but they also don't want to just straightforwardly employ their own military/army for diplomatic reasons, they could employ thieves to sabotage their enemies and obtain the resource. This would also solve the issues of legality and having a steady income.
In my setting, thieves, smugglers, spies, assassins, and the like are all part of the same massive organisation. There are separate regional guilds around the world, but they all operate under the auspices of a single "shadow king" who is a seemingly omnipresent, godlike, faceless entity. They have a code of conduct and rules of operations so as not to draw undue attention from the various kingdoms and empires they operate within.
One of the highest members of the organisation, a former legendary spy and assassin (and retired PC), is now basically an overworked beurocrat constantly burried in paperwork. She is always mildly irritated from stress when the party comes to her for help or advice even though they are working on contract from her most of the time.
Quick answer: Yes, just make them work like the maffia, which btw in turn are the continuations of guilds, which are the continuation of collegiums, etc., so it's not even that anachronistic.
Long answer: The problem of "thieves' guild" stems from 2 public misconceptions: 1. Is the definition of criminal organizations, and 2. The definition of guilds. There is also the problem of them being just written poorly in general, but that's a moot point to discuss.
1. Criminal organizations are not BASED on crime, but rather have the willingness to do it. The further you go back in time the more legally gray mafia activities become, and the more historical you get the more you see that what whe would today see as organized crime, back then was just how communities worked. There were collegia in pre-imperial rome that went around and bribed citizens to vote on their patrons, or fanclubs of carriage racers who beat the shit out of the other team LEGALLY because the current dictator favoured them.
And this got even worse in medieval times when shit was so decentralized that individual communities had de-facto autonomy on how they interpret and/or deal out law, resulting in quite a lot of instances where these communities clammed up and extorted, robbed or hurt groups of people they didn't like/ were rivals with, and not to mention the pogroms this and that minority had to endure when the majority had a lot of bad luck in a row. All these technically LEGAL, mind you, since there was no central authority whom anybody could REALISTICALLY turn to.
2. Guilds are as bloody nebolous a term as anything that ends with ism, and it's mainly thanks to the fact that whilst the roman collegium is what constitutes it's origins (which is what the popular definition of a guild is drawn from), yet everything under the sun that was serving a similar purpose has been dubbed a guild, even if was outside the roman sphere of influence and worked significantly different.
Thusly, we have examples of guilds where there wasn't a hierarchy, where there wasn't camarederie between members, where they didn't pull wealth from the members to finance collective investments. In fact, eastern merchant's guilds fit all these three, as they were more like an information hub on trade routes, weather, military movements, etc.
So then, how to make thieves' guild a thing?
An option would be to use the term guild not as a descriptor, but as an indication of conglomeration, and the term thieves' as an indication for criminal activity.
Basically, any gang, smuggling circle, black market, mercenary band of bad repute, and yes, even actual groups of thieves would be given the misnomer "thieves' guild" by the general populace to name something that may not be even that organized at all.
Another option is to have actual proper guilds get enough power and influence so that they can engage in legally gray or even criminal activities without fear of repercussions, as they have bribed/ intimidated enough officials for them to look in the other direction... for a time.
These would be once again called thieves' guilds not because they are guilds specialized in thievery, but guilds who on occasion break the law, and may steal or rob like thieves, but without getting caught like actual criminals.
Third, and my last idea is to have the insitution of bailiff's being called the guild of thieves, just like how nowadays folks call the IRS a maffia.
To make in an urban setting a hierarchical organization whose members are entirely made out of professional criminals that need to avoid getting caught doing their shady work, but also need to pay their dues to the group and if on higher the ladder then also teach the juniors about how to do crime... is complete bollocks.
If anybody gets caught, they will snitch on the rest to get a better sentence, especially in historical times where it may cost one's life or limb to steal from the wrong place, so the group would be always at risk and would resort to have "walls" between groups and their higher ups, so if somebody gets caught they may not endanger the entire hierarchy, but it would also hinder coordination between groups and members greatly.
There would be also, as you said, constant distrust between the members if all that is binding them together is the fact that everybody is a criminal. In fact, that's a very confrontation heavy work environment and the guild would quickly fracture into factions with closer ties to each other. Kinda like trying to make a convict union in a prison: the different races, religions and ideologies will immediately divide it into an impossible to unify mass.
Lastly, there is literally no reason to seek such a guild's membership. If they tax your "income" you will have less money for drugs, and if they don't then there won't be any bail money, loans, or anything you could get from them. There is also no protection, everybody distrusts each other and if the boss gets caught soon you will be too. They also wouldn't disclose the best criminal methods or potential victims for the same reason, and also because it would cut into their own profits. There is nothing to be gained.
One that instantly comes to mind to me is Dimir, the spy/assasin guild that is so mysterious it does not exist.
It also is one of the 10 guilds, always referred to as the 10 guilds. In addition, on any emblem depicting the balance of the guilds, their logo, somewhat between an eye and a spider, shows up.
Depends on the world. When I make a campaign a thieves guild is really each body of criminals that group together and they can vary greatly in how organized they are. Some have been large and well organized. The Cosa Nostra families controlled up to 26 cities and is a great example of what a thieves guild might be like, though perhaps they would call themselves something else while the public might call them the thieves guild. Off course, this would not exactly look like how D&D portrays a thieves guild, but when I'd run a world, the base rules would always get significantly modified with homebrew rules.
The Ancient Blade chronicles is a good example of a Thrives guild.
The guild was just a front for the lords spy network....
Most members were not aware of that and joined (willingly or not) to get access to the "thieves roads" a hidden tunnel network along with the guilds ability to bribe the guards which was not possible otherwise.
I use my Thieves guild as the the cities local intelligence/spy network, finding themselves with theft and contracts and made official because they have so much dirt on all the other organizations
My favourite Theives Guild appears in the The Gods Are Bastards sereis, in which they're somewhat tolerated since they're the Cult of the Theif God, Eserion. Any society that would dare to ban them risks Eserion's wrath.
My Thieves guild involves a fantasy setting where guilds are organizations that unlock greater magic in people for a price. For most guilds it involves signing a contract to obey certain strict rules for the rest of your life and depending on the guild; taking on certain duties (the yellow guild regulates the collection of magical creatures and plants sort of like magic forest rangers). The purple i.e thieves guild places no requirements on the members to meet any pre-existing requirements before joining. Contrast with the white/healers guild which requires a spotless civil record and high academic achievement. The Purple guild does not require its members to sign any sort of binding rules of conduct contract and places no restrictions on what magic members have awoken in them. Instead Purple guild members have to take out a huge loan from the purple guild and must meet their yearly payments or be thrown in the purple guild mines. If purple guild members get caught stealing they’re also thrown in the mines. The system rewards those who bring in money and punishes those who can’t. Funnily enough the people who join purple guild thinking they can steal all the money they need to pay their loan, usually get caught and it’s generally those who take up a skilled trade who end up paying off their loans. The government and powerful houses of nobility have to s of money. And basically use the purple guild as a way to create spies and assassins with ‘illegal’ magic skills.
You should talk lauder, with the volume on max I can barely hear you
I never played elder scrolls oblivion long enough to know how its thieves guild works or who Gray Fox is but it sounded cool and I'd like more information on what you meant by how its a great example of a necessary leader of a such as guild.
Haven’t finished the video but I got the idea of an area in a large city that surrounds a temple to Mask (the god of spies and thieves). In the area stealing is still illegal but it is highly encouraged and is punished differently than the rest of the city.
The punishment for stealing is having all your items taken and given to the temple or person that accused you.
The only things that are forbidden to steal are what is necessary for life (food, homes, etc).
Meaning thievery in this place isn’t done out of necessity or greed, it’s done in piety and honing of the craft.
Also, monthly, the temple could take all the items donated to it and give them to the surrounding citizens, starting the cycle over again.
Realized something else that, while advanced, could get silly quick if used: Tiny Servant. 3rd level spell, requires touch, but lets you animate a nonmagical object, giving it tiny arms and legs so it can move about, and lets you command it as a mental bonus action with a 120 ft range. This could result in crimes where the thief doesn't actually carry the item away, but it only gets one item at a time and the object is absolutely obviously enchanted, plus it's 3rd level which means a thief is going to be fairly advanced to have it. Even more absurd is Animate Objects, 5th level, makes 10 things fly, can be cast through walls at a range of 120 ft and has a control range of 500 ft... you can even use one as a decoy.
I liked the Elder Scrolls tying the guild until Nocturnal, having a patron god would be quote compatible with the prerequisites you mentioned.
I'm working on a D&D campaign that takes place in a city where the "Guild of Collectors" is a new thing - currently the city is ruled by a tyrant who understands martial supremacy and not much else. He's outlawed the guilds (who traditionally elect advisors to the ruler of the city) because they're a potential threat to his rule, and is generally running the city into the ground through his complete misunderstanding of how a city is actually run.
So naturally, the guilds are kinda pissed off at losing their seats in the halls of power, and are operating underground with the help of a few different groups. One of which is a pre-existing organized crime group, who've kinda just adopted the title of Guild because currently they're more or less all in the same boat as illegal organizations. Given they'll likely play a key role in the revolution to come (which is probably going to be after the campaign actually starts, though I'm giving them the option of starting a bit after if that all sounds a little too political), they'll probably be at least tolerated for a time by the republic that follows. Whether they develop into a real guild or not, I'm not sure.
Regarding the effects of magic on crime, Detect Magic and Locate Object are game changers. Granted, Detect Magic is limited range and nonspecific and thus mostly of use for those searching a premises or even frisking people, and second level spells means either a 3rd level primary caster or higher other class or be capable of affording an Uncommon scroll/tattoo, but anyone who can field Locate Object will be a dangerous mark and any competent thieves will likely try to confirm who can gain access to such magic (or worse yet just natively cast it) and take steps to avoid them and possibly trick rivals into thinking they're vulnerable, while simultaneously fences (especially those who aren't Deep Gnomes or otherwise capable of casting Nondetection on something they're trying to liquidate) will likely keep secret storage lined with lead and keep more unique items that are more likely to be used as Locate Object targets in them for a month or two before they try to liquidate while using similar storage for any stolen magic items (probably only removing them when offering them for sale), and some wealthy fences might even have permanent Private Sanctums in their secret storage (although that is likely overkill). By extension, I can't help but think that lead should be regulated to try and keep criminals from using it to their advantage as well, thus making it more difficult for those who don't have it to engage in riskier trade in stolen magic items or just in general fencing at all.
Very useful video. My current D&D PC wants to take revenge on a guild and these ideas help with exposing possible weak spots that could be expoilted to infiltrate and take them down.
I still remember the time I went to the thieves guild to buy illicit goods. A hoodlum attempted rob me in broad daylight, and when I fought back, all of the thieves, including the shopkeeper I was buying from, instantly I was going down. Terrible business strategy to be honest. Mysteriously, a stray fireball burned the place down later that night. (For real though, I was about to strangle my DM because if that was how the thieves guild operated, NO ONE would go there. You might get pickpocketed in such a place, but why tf would a merchant about to get your money suddenly decide “you know what? Drop all your gold instead, I’m gonna mug this you with this guy in the middle of the guild. Didn’t help that I was level 5 and just accidentally vaporized the original pickpocket with a high rolled spell)
On my setting there are a bunch thieves guilds and as people said, are like organized or semi-organized crime, with a kingpin. The most "legal" of them has close ties with the official Dockworkers Guild and is mostly like the historical relations of the mafia and unions.
my fave thieves guild in media, have always been the Mockers from Midkemia series.
an underground (literally) crime organization, that has members in key positions of influence in the city they operate. rulers and other important figures with the right connections have been able hire them for various purposes like espionage , and iirc they once stopped an assassination attempt on a beloved princess. operations like these kept them from being looked at by overzealous law types, that and they keep their members from going overboard, and other freelance criminals out.
Another neat aspect, is their leaders identities have always been hidden from everyone(reader included typically) besides a few very trustworthy lieutenants, only being known by cool titles like The Upright man or The Sagacious Man
I think house Dimir in mtg is a great example of a thieves guild. They mainly steal info but were also believed to not exist for many years in the lore of ravnica even though there founder was a part of the signing of the original guild pact and were only revealed because of his schemes to take over the city. I could be wrong about this though it's been a while since i read the original ravnica set's lore
Calling it a "thieves" guild os usually a misnomer to downplay the broad scope of performance of which the guilds usually encompass. In most interperetations that i see, the guild is typically the central intermediary for most organized crimes from infiltration or espionage to murder or kidnapping. The "thieves" part is typically because it is the "softest" of their services and thus safer to market for business. Many stories i've seen have them operate in a similar style as to how the "Adventurers" guilds operate. You'd have someone come in for a commission(likely at much higher expense than the adventurers guild) at which point the guild members would be able to organize into their own groups independently to take on each request. Dues would just be a cut of each completed request.
I would like to hear your opinion about the Thieve's Guild (and perhaps the Guilds for the other business normally seen as shady or immoral, like the assassins, the beggars and the ladies of negotiable affection) in Ankh Morpork from Terry Pratchett's Discworld.
You had some urban legends from medieval times, and some thiefs on trial told that they were members of thiefs guild
but when guards checked they found nothing.
I would consider a Thieves Guild to be a centralized point to buy or sell stolen merchandise.
Making it a form of Merchant Guild, where you get paid based on the item's worth and risk of carrying it.
And for financial backing, it can act as a safety net to return the belongings of its patrons, also making it a kind of Protection Guild.
And so, it would act as a countermeasure to ensure that national treasures and divine artifacts don't fall into the wrong hands. :3
But on the topic of cat burglars, how would beast races fit into or be treated in such a realistic fantasy setting, and what kind of divisions could be caused because of it?
Nice work on the video!