In my recent poll you all indicated you preferred 15-25 minute long videos, but the "35-40+ minute deep dive" option came in second! Well let's see how one of those deep dives does. If you all enjoyed this video (which was actually going to be 50 minutes until I edited it down), I'll be sure to make some more in the future!
@USOFZ can you do a 3 part what if timeline. 1, What if America went full Colonial. Purchasing and Conquering English Carribean, Northern mexico, and Greenland. 2, What if Napoleon accepted the Frankfurt. Proposals and focusing on Economic and Trade dominance over Europe and not conquest. 3, What if Imperial Federation was successful accross european empires specificly Britian and Austria-Hungary.
Video suggestions. What if America purchased European Colonies post world wars For Cheap. French Madagascar after WW1. English speaking British Carribean after ww1. British Belize and Guyana. French Guyana. Danish Greenland post WW2.
Nebuchadnezzar II was a Neo-Babylonian King whose father overthrew the Neo-Assyrians with help from the Medes and other Peoples with equal hatred of the Neo-Assyrian Empire. The Persians under Cyrus conquered the Neo-Babylonian Empire.
I would say it has done quite well, in 13 hours (Half a day) the video has 5,000 views and half a thousand likes. Even with the meager amount of likes it also wasn't even uploaded at a very early time; this helps to show how great of a video this truly is.
20:38 I loooove that there's 20 Minutes of history facts and ideation before the scenario. Makes it very in depth instead of "so I'll just make some stuff up" (not that that is necessarily bad, but I love this)
I hate that lol! If i wanted to watch a video about ancient maritime capabilities or the ethnicity of the olmecs i would have searched that up… i clicked on it to watch a alt history video and the scenario sometimes feels like an afterthought rather than the main attraction. Possible histories is great but i saw one video of his were there was 30 minutes history lecture and 5 mins about the scenario
How advanced and centralized this Olmec-Punic Civilization be? Would they carry on the Mercantile spirit of their ancestors? Their trading posts stretching from Nova Scotia to the mouth of the Parana River? Will they be a Collective of loosely united City-States? An Oligarchic Republic? Or a centralized empire, ruled by an absolute monarch? This is the most intriguing Alt-history scenario I've ever heard! I hope there will be a part 2 where the Europeans and the Olmec-Phoenicians interact.
Honestly this is such an interesting timeline. Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Also it's strange that he didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to horses and iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and commercial competition* between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agriculture as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa*.
There is also the possibility that the phoenitians COULD discover america but DIDN'T simply due to not trying or knowing or whatever Just like how the vikings COULD have started colonising america but didnt
The Vikings tried, but things like the little ice age, rough northern seas, droughts, and lack of essential resources made it hard to sustain colonies, as well as ofc the very small population of Scandinavia. They did try it just didn’t go well.
Yea the technology gap between Vikings and Native Americans wasn't as great as the gap between Post Renaissance Europeans and Native Americans.@@Larsisabigfan
@@Larsisabigfan yeah, Vinland had a lot going against it, first it didn't have everything a colony would need, they would need to import metals and tools because they didn't find ore deposits, so a self sustaining colony is out of question for at least a couple decades, since they needed to import things they needed something to export and that is problem two. The problem was that there was nothing they could sell to Iceland that Iceland couldn't get from elsewhere, they could grow grain, make salted meat, fish, leather, cut wood, and from all those wood was their better bet, but then come the third problem. The third problem is that Vinland is as far from Iceland as Continental Europe, so bringing wood or anything else from Vinland all the way to Iceland would cost the same as bringing from Europe itself, in fact it would be cheaper to bring it from Europe. The indigenous peoples' resistance against the Vinlanders was just another problem that ended a colony that already had too much against it.
One element not discussed is if disease would show up due to these encounters. Also the impact of a Columbian exchange 2000 years earlier. The technology, extra crops, and domesticated animals would change everything.
I'm aware of the light skin Brazilian tribe you discussed at 19:50 They're ethnic origins are probably Bretons. Hence French but with a Celtic language indistinguishable to the Portuguese. A more outlandish unlikely theory is Norse-Gaels or Madoc's welshmen. Both likely mythical. I think they were Bretons who got lost on a French expedition
I do posts on Mesoamerica (the Aztec, Maya etc) and work with history and archeology UA-camrs on the topic, and I have some thoughts and corrections (especially re: facial hair), Firstly, the idea that the Olmec just pop out of nowhere fully developed isn't correct: The Paleo-Indian and Archaic periods of Mesoamerica had the gradual development of agriculture, neolithic style tools, ceramics, sedentary settlements, etc, which then led into the urbanized civilizations of the Preclassic Period such as the Olmec. Additionally, while I've seen inconsistent information on the relative sizes of the sites, the "first" Olmec city, San Lorenzo (which developed into a complex site ~1400BC), was not as clearly urbanized or socially stratified as the next major center, La Venta (which rises to prominence ~900BC). Our earliest sign of Olmec writing also dates to around 900BC, and to go even further, La Venta's main pyramid only gradually expanded and grew over time (typical for Mesoamerica), and we'd see the development of Olmec civilization into what's often called the Epi Olmec culture. Additionally, much of what we credit as "Olmec style" may not have even entirely been developed them: Many sites in Central Mexico or Oaxaca sometimes get an "Olmec" label, thought to be colonies or conquests from the Olmec Heartland, but in reality these likely represent other emerging cities/towns adopting and imitating Olmec styles, or it may even represent a wider intra-Mesoamerican style at the time: In fact, some elements of this style DO seem to have been developed or iterated on in areas outside of the Olmec Heartland, such as in the Maya region, and certainly urbanism, social stratification, state formation, etc was something that many different areas developing simultaneously and influencing one another with. Actual "Olmec" sites in the heartland may have had the very earliest and some of the largest at the time (and even then, "some of": Look at recent work done at the Maya site of Aguada Fenix, with massive monumental construction going on at the same time as La Venta's heyday), but it was not a singular Mother Culture all others in the region developed out of, nor did it develop it's style alone or all at once. I'm not gonna focus on the whole "the Olmec were African" thing here much. As you note in the video, this is pretty baseless and is not taken seriously by any Mesoamericanist, and has no real evidence for it and is entirely contradicted by genetics. I will add onto what you said though at 8:19: wide noses, big lips, thick brows etc are things we STILL see in Indigenous people around the Gulf Coast and Isthmus region, same for the wide slanted eyes people often view as East Asian in some Olmec jade masks. I can't link it here since UA-cam will mark the comment as spam, but look up the collage titled "Olmecs: Product of Indigenous Populations", and you'll see photos of many people who are the spitting image of what's depicted in the Stone heads and jade masks. What I will comment on more is what you bring up regarding facial hair and beards. The exciting news for you and viewers is that yes, all of monuments and reliefs and sculptures you posted DO likely show facial hair. The disappointing news is that none of that actually matters or is important because... the Mesoamericans had facial hair, contrary to what you say at 13:23. It's really just that simple. We know this not only because facial hair is actually fairly common in Mesoamerican art, but also because the Spanish talk about it. For example, Pedro Martir de Angleria in "Decadas del Nuevo Mundo" notes that the people of Lucayas lack beards, "whether they are naturally so... or because THEY PLUCK OUT THEIR HAIR LIKE THE INHABITANTS OF TENOCHTITLAN", Tenochtitlan being the Aztec capital. Plucking facial hair as a social practice is something that is mentioned in many other places, and in fact we've even excavated tweezers used for for this (not just in Mesoamerica, but the Andes as well). Diego De Landa, infamous for burning a set of Maya codices/books, also recounts how Maya parents would heat the faces of children with hot clothes to ward off hair growth. In other words, the absolutely could and did grow some facial hair, it was just socially expected one would remove their hair. We know that rulers and the elderly were an exception to this, and are often depicted with facial hair. We know Moctezuma II had a beard and mustache, with Conquistadors such as Bernal Diaz saying so and is depicted as such by Indigenous artists, and many elderly deities have beards and mustaches as well, such as Huehueteotl (seen at 13:28). I don't know what mainstream sources you reference at 13:47 which take the presence of facial hair As far as the turban noted at 12:41, this is also not notable, as turbans were a part of Mesoamerican fashion. Less so in Central Mexico (though not unheard of), but it's a common part of Maya fashion, you can readily see this in a variety of ceramic figures, painted murals, etc, where variations of turbans, bandanas, and wraps were worn by both women and men. The "pointy shoes" do not look pointy to me: the pointy bits are clearly above the foot, not at the ends of the foot/toes. These look like sandals with some sort of tassel or strap laying on top of the foot to me. All of that said, IS there any credible evidence of the Mesoamericans having contact with cultures far outside of the region? Yes! The clearest example is that there was seemingly direct trade between Mesoamerican civilizations, (likely from Southern Mesoamerica such as Mayas, or perhaps Gulf Coast or Isthmus regions) who brought up Macaws, rubber balls, cacao, and other tropical goods into sites in Mexico's Northernmost states, as well as Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado, some of which also even have ball courts. It used to be thought that in exchange the Mesoamericans received turquoise, but recent studies have found that most if not all turquoise used in Mesoamerican art was sourced locally, so we're not sure what the Mesoamericans were trading for. This is as far north as we have solid evidence of direct contact with Mesoamerica, but from there indirect A to B, B to C, C to D etc style trade brought Mesoamerican obsidian as far northeast as Oklahoma, and while I would not put too much stock into it, there are some oral histories some researchers from centuries ago interpreted as suggesting the Iroquois or other Native American groups past the Southwest having some knowledge of far off powerful kingdoms, but these could easily be myths and if anything more likely describe large Moundbuilder (Hopewell, Mississippian, etc) towns or cities within te United States. Next, is that coastal or sea traders from Ecuador seemed to have traveled to West Mexico. This is a bit contentious, but is very much a real, non-fringe academic proposal and my impression is that it's mostly accepted now. I'm quite clear on the specifics, but it comes down to similarities in textile and metallurgy production methods and styles among other things, such as that the Ecuadorians actually may have brought Mesoamerican hairless dogs back with them. It's thought that the main motivating economic good here was Spondylus shell, which was used for jewelry in both Mesoamerican civilizations of Mexico, Guatemala Honduras, etc, as well as Andean civilizations in Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador etc. (and as you note in the video, these South American cultures had contact with Polynesians from there). There are some serious proposals of Maya coastal-naval contact with Caribbean cultures and perhaps from there even Floridian ones, but as far as I can tell at this point it seems like there's not much evidence for it: The main find in favor were some jade goods on some Caribbean islands, and we do know the Maya had some wide coastal trade routes that extended up into Veracruz and down into Honduras, but I believe the dating and provenance of the jade finds is suspect, and while Caribbean groups traveling down into the Maya region may have been possible, travel back up would have been quite iffy. And that's pretty much it, though obviously there was trade with cultures in Northern Mexico and Central America directly adjacent to Mesoamerica, and gradual indirect trade and diffusion to other places further out from there. To give some image corrections, the photos at 5:50 and 25:51 depict Maya sites, Tikal and Comalcalco, and 26:11 is the Classic Veracruz site of El Tajin, rather then Olmec ones. 27:14 is even a colonial period fort! Similarly, the feathered serpent/quetzalcoatl sculptures at 26:47 are Aztec, though there are Olmec depictions of Feathered serpents (such as La Venta Monument 19, at the bottom left at 26:40). The artwork at 13:30 is also not accurate to Aztec fashion and architecture, nor the art 28:54 / the thumbnail accurate. Here's some artists who do at least "decent" to "outright amazing" artistic reconstructions: Scott and Stuart Gentling, Angus Mcbride, Peter Dennis, H. Tom Hall, Louis Glanzman, Keith Henderson, Christopher Klein, Ned Seidler, Christian Jégou, Iker Larrauri Prado, Jean Torton/Voyages D'alix, abd Jose Ignacio Redondo. These are all traditional commercial artists, but online/social media ones are Kamazotz/Zotzcomic/Daniel Parada, Rafael Mena, OHS688, Axolitoo, ChicoDLHistoria, Mossacannibalis, BigRedHair's Aztec Empire webcomic/AztecEmpire1520, Trasancos 3d, Coricancha/Christine Clados (who I see you did use) etc. I can suggest others for both categories but that should give you a lot of starting places, but I would ask permission to use art from artists who have social media accounts. I'm running out of space, so my comments on your what-if scenario will go in a reply, but I did also wanna say I'm gonna shoot you an email with some additional resources, so keep an eye out for that. CONTINUED IN A REPLY BELOW:
CONTINUED FROM ABOVE: To comment on your actual what-if: The map at 25:35 , even given the intended simplicity, has issues. 500BC is pretty late for the Olmec, it's a transition period between them and the Epi-Olmec, and by this point complex societies were popping up all over the place: the Maya and Zapotec writing systems both probably existed by then, and the Zapotec city of Monte Alban would have become an early major center in Oaxaca as of 500BC, in fact likely being Mesoamerica's first true bureaucratic political state, if earlier Zapotec, Maya, Olmec etc centers don't qualify, which is debatable. That in turn is why the statement 28:55 is iffy: The Olmec were definitely NOT a centralized empire, but at best (probably so by this point) a collection of city-states. Even later in the Mesoamerican Classic and Postclassic periods, large scale centralized empires were rare, and larger political bodies tended to be hegemonies: Even the Aztec empire was arguably closer to the Delian/Athenian League or the Holy Roman Empire then say the Roman Empire, though I don't know much about either the Delian or HRE so my analogy could be iffy. But as I implied with the Zapotec and Maya, the Olmec were not the only civilization here: The Zapotec were a thing in Oaxaca, and there were some early Mixtec villages and towns too, though I'm less familiar with what they were up to this early on. Central Mexico had a variety of towns and some cities, though West Mexico wouldn't urbanize for a while still. The area you have marked as "uncivilized southern tribes" actually would have contained many Maya towns and some larger cities: El Mirador for example in Guatemala would have been in that zone, and in another 2 centuries would become a giant metropolis. The point is, by focusing on the Olmec, you're ignoring the other civilizations in Mesoamerica at the time. I can't really comment how realistic the exact political and diplomatic situation you set up here is. We don't have written records from this period that we can read (Olmec writing is entirely undeciphered, and Zapotec and Epi-Olmec mostly is as well,. We can read Maya writing, but the earliest surviving Maya writing doesn't show up for another few centuries even if it probably existed at this time) and I'm not really familiar with research which tries to reconstruct the political dynamics during this time period aside from in the Zapotec region, and even that i'm not really well read on. I'm not sure what you're referencing at 33:54, maybe some older publications which argued that the Olmec made colonies in Guatemala, but as I said, it's now thought that most Olmec sites outside of the Olmec Heartland just obtained Olmec style goods or adopted their style, and in fact Maya groups in Guatemala may have even contributed some of the traits we associate with the Olmec style. Also, I covered it before but many of the images used throughout aren't Olmec, and also are of ruins, not artistic reconstructions of sites in their heyday with all of their infrastructure and buildings: Modern ruins and maps for tourists tend to only have a few key structures visible, out of the dozens or hundreds in the city centers, and the suburbs radiating out around those centers, which in some cases for larger Maya sites could extend for hundreds of square kilometers. There were also roads, aqueducts, terraced farms and other infrastructure, etc. Buildings were also richly painted with murals and frescoes. Lastly, I see other commenters talking about diseases, but I don't think that changes much: Firstly, the initial smallpox epidemic in actual history "only" wiped out a bit under a third of the Mesoamerican population, the full 90% population collapse took another 80 years and multiple subsequent outbreaks combined with the political and social instability caused by Spanish colonization, which likely exacerbated things (there are studies to back that up). I'd assume Phoenician contact in Mesoamerican would be more gradual and colonization would be not as rapid. Some outbreaks would probably happen, but I don't think it'd cause 90% population losses unless the Phoenicians go out of their way to conquer and displace people.
@USOFZ can you do a 3 part what if timeline. 1, What if America went full Colonial. Purchasing and Conquering English Carribean, Northern mexico, and Greenland. 2, What if Napoleon accepted the Frankfurt. Proposals and focusing on Economic and Trade dominance over Europe and not conquest. 3, What if Imperial Federation was successful accross european empires specificly Britian and Austria-Hungary.
2 and 3 are boring ..... 1 could be intresting ... as it would ruin the US-british relationship and the US wouldn´t fund the entente in WWI ............
@@JTL1776 Proposal One though seems highly likely at first, A deeper dive into the actual socioeconomic and political situation of early america shows that it was impossible. Before the ban on slavery the US couldn’t add colonies which the south would see as competitors in the agricultural market also Northern Mexico’s annexation would lead to them just becoming a part of the US and getting integrated. Mexican Resistance would be higher but due to the lower populations America might make them go into the remaining parts of Mexico and make whites colonise the place. There was also high skepticism of the black population increasing. The most that American could do was Canada, North not that populated areas of Mexico, Not the caribbean but most pacific Islands and some tradeports in China and Africa.
@@baronbrummbar8691 Boring???? Napoleon led French Republic through industrialization and the Franco-Prussian War. And Early 1900's United Kingdom of Britian and Ireland with the English speaking commonwealths United in a Constitutional Monarchy with a Federal Parliaments. A Balkans Under an Austria Hungery Imperial Federation and before you say the ethnic and religious differences the nation couldn't form let alone survive tell that to America from 1776 to today. Clarification I did not say perfect regarding Austria Hungary I said form and survive.
@@NicholasKohen Baja California would be easily incorporated and Rio Grande Republic like Texas wished to Join the USA to get away from Mexican city tyranny. So the North South Divide, sure, but northern Mexico wouldn't be an major Internal resistance issue.
@@NicholasKohenThe Spanish Caribbean we already had after the Spanish-American War spanish speaking Carribean would be like Peurto Rico. Until ww2, then the largest islands would likely gain statehood. Like Cuba Hispania. English speaking Carribean would be easily Colonized and statehood wouldn't be an Issue. French speaking Carribean would be culturally easier to incorporate as states and France selling them would be likely be easy to make a Deal.
The Olmecs did not arrive on the scene with a full-fledged culture, architecture or even a written language. We can see their gradual advancement over time until finally at their last centuries they left their first hieroglyphic recorded date at the end of the BC era. Also, they were not an African colony because there is no similar "mother culture" in Africa that bears any resemblance to Olmec Mexico.
I imagine the competition between Greece and Carthage would be like that between Britain and France. I also think you should have mentioned the affects of this discovery on the rise of rome and future of the mediterranean.
I've been to Mexico. I've seen Mexicans who could resemble olmecs whilst maintaining distinct Mexican features and not being black. The Afro-Olmec theory is simply people having never met Mexicans before with similar cranium but with other features absent in Africans such as grown not black skin with It's brownness being copper and not the African sandy brown. There were also skulls found in Canada people thought was evidence of ancient white men. Than we see contemporary dark skin native American with the same skullshape. Skullshapes aren't good for presuppositions in the native Americans populations. They're mix descendants of and I see these words loosely so if you quote me you quote this part as to not accuse me of 19th century racism. The native Americans are compositions of Western Eurasians and Eastern Eurasians and Australian aboriginals moving into the Americas and mixing. Ancient near eastern populations who were brown and had skulls similar to modern middle Easterners, Berbers or Europeans, mixed with ironically mongoloid skulls creating the first Eurasians, though mongoloid is a improper outdated term. And Australian aboriginals. With some native Americans having been known in South America to resemble Indians from Actual India 🇮🇳 or parts of Melanesia where australoid and "Europid" or "Asiatic" people resemble mix types. And this is from actual genetic evidence. No nonsense of Aryans + Turks + Africans or Ham Shem Japheth or other pseudo science crap equal native Americans blah blah no that never happened. It wasn't China western Europe South Africa It was Australian aboriginals, northeastern Eurasians called the ancient north Eurasians who were "caucasoid" in skullshape, and some ancient Oriental population. But not modern eastern Asian ethnicities rather something ancient.
Given how throughly Rome wiped Charthage and their culture off the map I don't find it much of a stretch that a people who had mastered the sea and sail like the Chaethagains to make it to Mesoamerica. Another thing to keep in mind is just how much was lost when Western Rome fell so it's possible they had some idea of the New World. Great video and great listen while taking a walk man, keep up the great work
They say Basque and Breton fishermen and seafaring communities had knowledge of the New World for centuries before the Spanish ever came, so I wonder if they would have had knowledge of it back then too.
@@n00b5lay3r I think so too. Basque and Breton fisherman were aware of North America and North American fishing areas just off the coast of St. John for centuries, even during the time of the Norse expedition to Canada in 1000. We are now finding new evidence of Polynesian-Native American contact too, such as how sweet potatoes were diffused, as well as cultural, architectural, and linguistic ties.
opne factor missing from the scenario; a discussion of the effects of an earlier cross atlantic interchange. as soon as the first phoenicians get back to the homeland you've probably introduced corn to the old world, what else do you think the sailors are gonna trade for to eat on the trip back? you put up a trade colony, boom thats horses and sheep and whatever other farm animals a small phoenician settlement might need, not to mention disease...
Earlier benefits for the Old World, introduction of potatoes, corn, tomato, squash, quinine, etc could have saved tens to hundreds of millions of lives over millennia from disease and famine, if utilized and discovered. Maybe a higher world population to this day?
Honestly this is such an interesting timeline. Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Also it's strange that he didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to Afro-Eurasian animals most importantly of all being horses plus iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and commercial competition* between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agriculture as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa*..
@@zhcultivator the current theories on the toltecs see them as more of a culture and less of an empire, which would explain the existence of nahuatl areas in central mexico prior to the nahuatlaca migration from nayarit and xalisco
Kind of leaving out the big issue with first contact, disease. Estimates put native population loss at 80-90% from 1500-1700. In Mexico the population went from 22-25 million down to 3 million. The Olmecs with their urbanized population would undoubtably collapse. Plagues wiped out on average a third of populations in the old world when they spread. It's almost impossible to avoid it becoming an issue in the new world.
Agreed. Honestly this is such an interesting timeline. Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Realistically though some other Mesoamerican people like the Proto-Zapotec* might have benefited instead and constructed a vast & wealthy empire instead of say the Maya. Also it's strange that he didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to Afro-Eurasian animals most importantly of all being horses plus iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and commercial competition* between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agriculture as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa*.
I'd say he'd just go into regular politics. I doubt he'd try to restore the throne or anything. And that's if he didn't just remain in the military and retire or just become a civilian and chill for the remainder of his life.
Honestly this is such an interesting timeline. Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Also it's strange that he didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to Afro-Eurasian animals most importantly of all being horses plus iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and commercial competition* between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agriculture as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa*.
if we're gonna talk ancient peoples boating to america, theres genetic evidence of the polynesians making the journey. edit: and i see you mention them, cool cool.
I think your video was interesting, I'd love a sequesl with you guesses on how the new world wouldve grown, and maybe a video on Vinland succeeding some 1500 years later.
An interesting and fascinating scenario for sure. I am very intrigued by the Carthaginian naval power and it honestly seems plausible that they would have been able to reach America. Of course, in my opinion, those did (and if they) reached the New World would have either been killed or at the very least not have been able to find their way back home Still, the scenario presented here is quite an underrated topic, as it's always crazy to imagine communication between the Ancient World and the American content As always, great work, keep it up Z!
I never imagined it was possible to repeat the same sentence in so many different ways. I want you to listen to this video and take a shot every time you say something along the lines of "Phoenicians sailed better than we could have ever imagined" I promise you you'll be blackout drunk by the fourth minute because you don't stop repeating that sentence over and over again.
What about diseases like measles and tuberculosis? If the New World had exposure to these disease millennia before the European age of exploration, this could render native states like future Mesoamerica, Andean, Mayan, or Mississppian cultures stronger and more resistant to European diseases and exploitation. Maybe technology would not be so advanced, but the influence of just a few Old World settlers would still show, if not in demographics (due to disease resistance after initial plagues) but in culture and architecture as well. Could future hybrid Greco-Mesoamerican or Carib/Taino civilizations have developed seafaring skills enough for there to be a Reverse Columbian exchange eventually if such skills were taught? It's hard to say.
The first ever reported case of measles in humans is from around the 4th century BC and its actual rapid divergence from rinderpest was between 1100 and 1200 AD. TB is much older, but not nearly as dramatic and never ended up causing a natural societal immunity effect until the modern vaccine era. This scenario starts in 500 BC, so basically: the groups you mentioned are still totally screwed.
OR this might happen; Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Alternatively, Teotihuacan** could build a gargantuan Mesoamerican Empire instead making them the ''Persians of Mesoamerica'' culturally, civilization-wise and linguistically so future invaders/or newcomers of Mesoamerica would be Teotihuacanized* like the process of Persianization in the Iranian Plateau in the old world. Also it's strange that you didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to horses and iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and trade struggle between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisicated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agricultural complexity such as the Upano Valley Sites' inhabitants as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa. In addition, the Khmer Empire-like Amazonian Civilization would likely use the Phoenician Alphabet for writing and could make contact with the Andean civilizations like the Tiwanaku* polity who would become the romans of the Andes essentially imo. Also the Maya, if they won out in the end as Mesoamerica's great power and expanded they take on a ''civilizing mission'' towards the non-Maya peoples of Central America and the Chichimeca... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanos_de_Moxos_(archaeology)
In addition: some Native Americans like the Apache, Comanche and maybe the Hopi would become the Huns & Mongols of this timeline's North America invading Mesoamerica and getting culturally assimilated only to be replaced in a new wave by another fearsome nomadic Native American horse-riding people...
What's funny is that I was actually searching up scenarios on what if the phenoesans survived, so that's pretty cool I guess. (ALSO WHEN IS THE ZOROASTRIAN RECONQUESTA COMING OUT IT'S BEEN SO LONG 😭😭😭😭)
I hit writers block on the Zoroastrian video and a historian of Persian history ghosted me so I tabled it for a few weeks. Rn I’m working on some collabs and other projects but it’ll still be published probably by December
early! (will edit comment if I have something to say after watching) edit: this desperately needs a part 2. a lot of the video was more "Delving into potential pre-columbian Old World influences in the New World " which left much to be desired about an actual alternate history delving into "What if Carthage Discovered America?" Im excited to see how this timeline develops if you continue it
Honestly this is such an interesting timeline. Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Realistically, the Mayans would be the one capable of building such a large empire with iron weapons and horses plus maybe elephants too bought from the Carthaginians. Also it's strange that he didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to Afro-Eurasian animals most importantly of all being horses plus iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and commercial competition* between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agriculture & complexity as well like the Inhabitants of the Upano Valley* sites, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa*...The Native American Cultures such as the Mississippians in OTL (our timeline) Southern USA would develop faster with shorter travel/communication times and develop a trading relationship with the Carthaginians via likely Carthaginian trade ports in Louisiana, Florida, Mississippi, Texas and Alabama.
Rome were the most liekly to colonize as they wanted to spread everywhere but later on they cared about defence of the empire not spreading.so this is probably why they never even went there aswell as ships tevhnology wasnt there to waste time and resources to live somewhere else.
If they set up trading outposts in West Africa wouldn't West Africans eventually make their way to the Americas as well? Several West African kingdoms & empires existed in the region. I don't see why the Phoenicians wouldn't set up alliances with them
Since the timeline's Mesoamericans especially the Maya would have ironworking and horses earlier from the Phoenician Carthaginians, that could mean that they would be more expansionist and build a massive Maya Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs or larger than the Toltec Empire really. Alternatively, Teotihuacan** could build a gargantuan Mesoamerican Empire instead making them the ''Persians of Mesoamerica'' culturally, civilization-wise and linguistically so future invaders/or newcomers of Mesoamerica would be Teotihuacanized* like the process of Persianization in the Iranian Plateau in the old world. Also the Natives would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to horses and iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and economic competition between the various Indigenous Amerindians in the Americas may spark a large technological arms race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agricultural complexity such as the Upano Valley Sites' inhabitants as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa. In addition, the Khmer Empire-like Amazonian Civilization would likely use the Phoenician Alphabet for writing and could make contact with the Andean civilizations like the Tiwanaku* polity who would become the romans of the Andes essentially imo. Also the Maya, if they won out in the end as Mesoamerica's great power and expanded they could take on a ''civilizing mission'' towards the non-Maya peoples of Central America and the Chichimeca...replicating European colonialism with their own Maya colonization efforts. Finally since the Amerindians would have rough technological parity (with the exception* of gunpowder weapons) with Afro-Eurasia, this would make European colonization of the Americas far more difficult to achieve. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanos_de_Moxos_(archaeology)
Curious how the impact of disease would have shaped the early contact? With the long journey and small numbers it may have been possible to avoid the transmission of some infectious agents - maybe? I reckon smallpox & measles, among other common infections that had arisen by 500 BC would have ravaged the indigenous populations, as it did in our timeline.
Honestly this is such an interesting timeline. Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Also it's strange that he didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to Afro-Eurasian animals most importantly of all being horses plus iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and commercial competition* between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agriculture as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa*...
This is an incredible voyage by Mediterranean standards. To make it happen regularly there needs to be some huge incentive, like gold was for the Spanish. I'd start with Episode I: How the Carthaginians colonised the Gold Coast of Africa and then Episode II: How Carthagianised Africans from the Gold Coast Colonised America.
35:00 Why would they wait for word from home? There would already be trade routes existing. Nothing is there to stop them from starting to trade with the Romans for what they needed or wanted from the old world.
I want episode on Australian civilization like South Australia has a big area where race in grain can grow that area should be getting Australian civilization
21:44 - Small error here. It was not the Assyrians who were conquered by the Persians. The Assyrian were conquered by the Neo-babylonians and were fully annexed by 612 BC. Shortly after that, in 539 BC, the Neo-babylonians were conquered by the Persians.
important comment, the caribs were not yet even out of Guyana by the 1st millenium BC, the caribbean was in the east populated by the Taíno peoples and in the west by extinct peoples related to the ciguayo and guanahatabey peoples
If they had metal weapons it would have been more difficult for the Spanish and other European people to conquer them and they probably would have been exposed waaaay earlier to old world diseases so if this would have happened i think it would have been a bit More difficult for european conquest
What we know is that if America was colonized by the phoenicians, we would have seen similar art, similar calligraphy and similar technology of the time
I swear I remember seeing something that compared the scripts of the incan language and compared it with Linear A. It also said that incan nobles looked different and spoke a different language than commoners. Anyone else know what I'm talking about? I swear I'm not insane.
There’s some evidence that the Phoenicians and Carthaginians may visited the Americas such as the Waubansee Stone in Illinois. However, if they settled in the Americas, they would have been chased out by the Native AmerIndian people like the Vikings who called them skraelings (terrible people) or they would have intermarried with them like the Roanoke Colony settlers or the Polynesians in South America.
PLEASE DO A PART 2: in which the politics of Alexander's conquests & the Punic Wars ate strongly reverberated amongst the Greek & Phoenician New World colonies 🙏 🙏 🙏
Maybe a small number of people reach américa along the centuries and gave a bit of inffluence to the culture there, but they we're too few to really make a great change in the genes (sorry for the bad English)
Im a mormon and I thank you for this video. I truly do believe the world was much more globalized then we believe, Just like we have crazy people today who want to go to unmapped parts of the amazon, There was crazy people back then who wondered what was on the other side of the ocean.
what if Maria Theresia (or to be precise her father) accepted the marriage proposal of prince Friedrich in Prussia (later to be known as Friedrich the Great)
Africans reaching America: from racism Polynesians reaching America: could explain why chickens exist in Peru and how Sweet Potatos reach Oceania and East Asia.
No ancient culture would ever do this and colonize other continent wasting their own money and time. Vikings tried but abonded it as it was to costly and not needed. What were you sacking exactly ,wood and trinkets,its not worth it. Spain only did it becauae of gold ,ancient cultures didnt have the proper navigation or tools to Even attempt this,spain had technological advanents that allowed them to take over the areas, later on religious problems forcwd people to move to the continent. Rome would nevwr attempt this as it wasnt neeeded nor Greeks, it would take alot for this to happen
The tales of the Olmec-Phoenician Civilization across the sea would be held in the same regard as Atlantis by the time of Columbus. The rediscovery of the lost civilization would be shocking, to say the least. How would the Renaissance Intelligencia and Artists react to the rediscovery of this ancient civilization? As self-proclaimed students of the Ancient World, the lost exclave of that world surviving and thriving after all this time would no doubt excite them.
Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Also it's strange that you didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to horses and iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and trade struggle between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agriculture as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa.* Also the Khmer Empire-like Amazonian Civilization would likely use the Phoenician Script for writing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanos_de_Moxos_(archaeology)
In my recent poll you all indicated you preferred 15-25 minute long videos, but the "35-40+ minute deep dive" option came in second! Well let's see how one of those deep dives does. If you all enjoyed this video (which was actually going to be 50 minutes until I edited it down), I'll be sure to make some more in the future!
I wrote another comment. I love these long videos. I think this is the first I have watched in a while but it instantly got me to subscribe.
@USOFZ can you do a 3 part what if timeline.
1, What if America went full Colonial.
Purchasing and Conquering English Carribean, Northern mexico, and Greenland.
2, What if Napoleon accepted the Frankfurt. Proposals and focusing on Economic and Trade dominance over Europe and not conquest.
3, What if Imperial Federation was successful accross european empires specificly Britian and Austria-Hungary.
Video suggestions.
What if America purchased European Colonies post world wars For Cheap.
French Madagascar after WW1.
English speaking British Carribean after ww1.
British Belize and Guyana.
French Guyana.
Danish Greenland post WW2.
Nebuchadnezzar II was a Neo-Babylonian King whose father overthrew the Neo-Assyrians with help from the Medes and other Peoples with equal hatred of the Neo-Assyrian Empire. The Persians under Cyrus conquered the Neo-Babylonian Empire.
I would say it has done quite well, in 13 hours (Half a day) the video has 5,000 views and half a thousand likes. Even with the meager amount of likes it also wasn't even uploaded at a very early time; this helps to show how great of a video this truly is.
Mormons have entered the chat
lmao
Molochists have barged upon the chat
Omg I commented the same thing
@@Itsthebigmac this is heretical to them lol
@@Michiganmayor420 no its not lol. We really support this theory and it excites us.
What if I accidentally dropped a nuke on my toilet because of eating taco bell.
Relatable asf
Well you see it depends on where you lived and how much you consumed.
@@NicholasKohen u should get one of those toilets that turns your turds into bitcoin
That ain't accident, you eat taco bells on propose
@@bernhardjordan9200 You dare think I will willingly do that?
20:38 I loooove that there's 20 Minutes of history facts and ideation before the scenario. Makes it very in depth instead of "so I'll just make some stuff up" (not that that is necessarily bad, but I love this)
I hate that lol! If i wanted to watch a video about ancient maritime capabilities or the ethnicity of the olmecs i would have searched that up… i clicked on it to watch a alt history video and the scenario sometimes feels like an afterthought rather than the main attraction. Possible histories is great but i saw one video of his were there was 30 minutes history lecture and 5 mins about the scenario
It would be cool to see a mix between Hellenistic and Olmec architecture with Phoenician influence in the new world.
How advanced and centralized this Olmec-Punic Civilization be? Would they carry on the Mercantile spirit of their ancestors? Their trading posts stretching from Nova Scotia to the mouth of the Parana River?
Will they be a Collective of loosely united City-States? An Oligarchic Republic? Or a centralized empire, ruled by an absolute monarch?
This is the most intriguing Alt-history scenario I've ever heard! I hope there will be a part 2 where the Europeans and the Olmec-Phoenicians interact.
Honestly this is such an interesting timeline. Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Also it's strange that he didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to horses and iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and commercial competition* between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agriculture as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa*.
There is also the possibility that the phoenitians COULD discover america but DIDN'T simply due to not trying or knowing or whatever
Just like how the vikings COULD have started colonising america but didnt
The Vikings tried, but things like the little ice age, rough northern seas, droughts, and lack of essential resources made it hard to sustain colonies, as well as ofc the very small population of Scandinavia. They did try it just didn’t go well.
Yea the technology gap between Vikings and Native Americans wasn't as great as the gap between Post Renaissance Europeans and Native Americans.@@Larsisabigfan
@@Larsisabigfan yeah, Vinland had a lot going against it, first it didn't have everything a colony would need, they would need to import metals and tools because they didn't find ore deposits, so a self sustaining colony is out of question for at least a couple decades, since they needed to import things they needed something to export and that is problem two. The problem was that there was nothing they could sell to Iceland that Iceland couldn't get from elsewhere, they could grow grain, make salted meat, fish, leather, cut wood, and from all those wood was their better bet, but then come the third problem. The third problem is that Vinland is as far from Iceland as Continental Europe, so bringing wood or anything else from Vinland all the way to Iceland would cost the same as bringing from Europe itself, in fact it would be cheaper to bring it from Europe. The indigenous peoples' resistance against the Vinlanders was just another problem that ended a colony that already had too much against it.
@@Larsisabigfanwell even better funded ppl werent able to stay same for spain. Spain didnt attempt to stay at all just take gold
@@diegonatan6301there is legit no reason to stay there excpet if you want peace .issue is natives dont like you in America's
One element not discussed is if disease would show up due to these encounters. Also the impact of a Columbian exchange 2000 years earlier. The technology, extra crops, and domesticated animals would change everything.
I'm aware of the light skin Brazilian tribe you discussed at 19:50
They're ethnic origins are probably Bretons. Hence French but with a Celtic language indistinguishable to the Portuguese.
A more outlandish unlikely theory is Norse-Gaels or Madoc's welshmen. Both likely mythical.
I think they were Bretons who got lost on a French expedition
The fact this has a 25% like rate means i hope this continues.
I do posts on Mesoamerica (the Aztec, Maya etc) and work with history and archeology UA-camrs on the topic, and I have some thoughts and corrections (especially re: facial hair), Firstly, the idea that the Olmec just pop out of nowhere fully developed isn't correct: The Paleo-Indian and Archaic periods of Mesoamerica had the gradual development of agriculture, neolithic style tools, ceramics, sedentary settlements, etc, which then led into the urbanized civilizations of the Preclassic Period such as the Olmec. Additionally, while I've seen inconsistent information on the relative sizes of the sites, the "first" Olmec city, San Lorenzo (which developed into a complex site ~1400BC), was not as clearly urbanized or socially stratified as the next major center, La Venta (which rises to prominence ~900BC). Our earliest sign of Olmec writing also dates to around 900BC, and to go even further, La Venta's main pyramid only gradually expanded and grew over time (typical for Mesoamerica), and we'd see the development of Olmec civilization into what's often called the Epi Olmec culture.
Additionally, much of what we credit as "Olmec style" may not have even entirely been developed them: Many sites in Central Mexico or Oaxaca sometimes get an "Olmec" label, thought to be colonies or conquests from the Olmec Heartland, but in reality these likely represent other emerging cities/towns adopting and imitating Olmec styles, or it may even represent a wider intra-Mesoamerican style at the time: In fact, some elements of this style DO seem to have been developed or iterated on in areas outside of the Olmec Heartland, such as in the Maya region, and certainly urbanism, social stratification, state formation, etc was something that many different areas developing simultaneously and influencing one another with. Actual "Olmec" sites in the heartland may have had the very earliest and some of the largest at the time (and even then, "some of": Look at recent work done at the Maya site of Aguada Fenix, with massive monumental construction going on at the same time as La Venta's heyday), but it was not a singular Mother Culture all others in the region developed out of, nor did it develop it's style alone or all at once.
I'm not gonna focus on the whole "the Olmec were African" thing here much. As you note in the video, this is pretty baseless and is not taken seriously by any Mesoamericanist, and has no real evidence for it and is entirely contradicted by genetics. I will add onto what you said though at 8:19: wide noses, big lips, thick brows etc are things we STILL see in Indigenous people around the Gulf Coast and Isthmus region, same for the wide slanted eyes people often view as East Asian in some Olmec jade masks. I can't link it here since UA-cam will mark the comment as spam, but look up the collage titled "Olmecs: Product of Indigenous Populations", and you'll see photos of many people who are the spitting image of what's depicted in the Stone heads and jade masks.
What I will comment on more is what you bring up regarding facial hair and beards. The exciting news for you and viewers is that yes, all of monuments and reliefs and sculptures you posted DO likely show facial hair. The disappointing news is that none of that actually matters or is important because... the Mesoamericans had facial hair, contrary to what you say at 13:23. It's really just that simple. We know this not only because facial hair is actually fairly common in Mesoamerican art, but also because the Spanish talk about it. For example, Pedro Martir de Angleria in "Decadas del Nuevo Mundo" notes that the people of Lucayas lack beards, "whether they are naturally so... or because THEY PLUCK OUT THEIR HAIR LIKE THE INHABITANTS OF TENOCHTITLAN", Tenochtitlan being the Aztec capital. Plucking facial hair as a social practice is something that is mentioned in many other places, and in fact we've even excavated tweezers used for for this (not just in Mesoamerica, but the Andes as well). Diego De Landa, infamous for burning a set of Maya codices/books, also recounts how Maya parents would heat the faces of children with hot clothes to ward off hair growth. In other words, the absolutely could and did grow some facial hair, it was just socially expected one would remove their hair. We know that rulers and the elderly were an exception to this, and are often depicted with facial hair. We know Moctezuma II had a beard and mustache, with Conquistadors such as Bernal Diaz saying so and is depicted as such by Indigenous artists, and many elderly deities have beards and mustaches as well, such as Huehueteotl (seen at 13:28). I don't know what mainstream sources you reference at 13:47 which take the presence of facial hair
As far as the turban noted at 12:41, this is also not notable, as turbans were a part of Mesoamerican fashion. Less so in Central Mexico (though not unheard of), but it's a common part of Maya fashion, you can readily see this in a variety of ceramic figures, painted murals, etc, where variations of turbans, bandanas, and wraps were worn by both women and men. The "pointy shoes" do not look pointy to me: the pointy bits are clearly above the foot, not at the ends of the foot/toes. These look like sandals with some sort of tassel or strap laying on top of the foot to me.
All of that said, IS there any credible evidence of the Mesoamericans having contact with cultures far outside of the region? Yes!
The clearest example is that there was seemingly direct trade between Mesoamerican civilizations, (likely from Southern Mesoamerica such as Mayas, or perhaps Gulf Coast or Isthmus regions) who brought up Macaws, rubber balls, cacao, and other tropical goods into sites in Mexico's Northernmost states, as well as Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado, some of which also even have ball courts. It used to be thought that in exchange the Mesoamericans received turquoise, but recent studies have found that most if not all turquoise used in Mesoamerican art was sourced locally, so we're not sure what the Mesoamericans were trading for. This is as far north as we have solid evidence of direct contact with Mesoamerica, but from there indirect A to B, B to C, C to D etc style trade brought Mesoamerican obsidian as far northeast as Oklahoma, and while I would not put too much stock into it, there are some oral histories some researchers from centuries ago interpreted as suggesting the Iroquois or other Native American groups past the Southwest having some knowledge of far off powerful kingdoms, but these could easily be myths and if anything more likely describe large Moundbuilder (Hopewell, Mississippian, etc) towns or cities within te United States.
Next, is that coastal or sea traders from Ecuador seemed to have traveled to West Mexico. This is a bit contentious, but is very much a real, non-fringe academic proposal and my impression is that it's mostly accepted now. I'm quite clear on the specifics, but it comes down to similarities in textile and metallurgy production methods and styles among other things, such as that the Ecuadorians actually may have brought Mesoamerican hairless dogs back with them. It's thought that the main motivating economic good here was Spondylus shell, which was used for jewelry in both Mesoamerican civilizations of Mexico, Guatemala Honduras, etc, as well as Andean civilizations in Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador etc. (and as you note in the video, these South American cultures had contact with Polynesians from there).
There are some serious proposals of Maya coastal-naval contact with Caribbean cultures and perhaps from there even Floridian ones, but as far as I can tell at this point it seems like there's not much evidence for it: The main find in favor were some jade goods on some Caribbean islands, and we do know the Maya had some wide coastal trade routes that extended up into Veracruz and down into Honduras, but I believe the dating and provenance of the jade finds is suspect, and while Caribbean groups traveling down into the Maya region may have been possible, travel back up would have been quite iffy.
And that's pretty much it, though obviously there was trade with cultures in Northern Mexico and Central America directly adjacent to Mesoamerica, and gradual indirect trade and diffusion to other places further out from there.
To give some image corrections, the photos at 5:50 and 25:51 depict Maya sites, Tikal and Comalcalco, and 26:11 is the Classic Veracruz site of El Tajin, rather then Olmec ones. 27:14 is even a colonial period fort! Similarly, the feathered serpent/quetzalcoatl sculptures at 26:47 are Aztec, though there are Olmec depictions of Feathered serpents (such as La Venta Monument 19, at the bottom left at 26:40). The artwork at 13:30 is also not accurate to Aztec fashion and architecture, nor the art 28:54 / the thumbnail accurate. Here's some artists who do at least "decent" to "outright amazing" artistic reconstructions: Scott and Stuart Gentling, Angus Mcbride, Peter Dennis, H. Tom Hall, Louis Glanzman, Keith Henderson, Christopher Klein, Ned Seidler, Christian Jégou, Iker Larrauri Prado, Jean Torton/Voyages D'alix, abd Jose Ignacio Redondo. These are all traditional commercial artists, but online/social media ones are Kamazotz/Zotzcomic/Daniel Parada, Rafael Mena, OHS688, Axolitoo, ChicoDLHistoria, Mossacannibalis, BigRedHair's Aztec Empire webcomic/AztecEmpire1520, Trasancos 3d, Coricancha/Christine Clados (who I see you did use) etc. I can suggest others for both categories but that should give you a lot of starting places, but I would ask permission to use art from artists who have social media accounts.
I'm running out of space, so my comments on your what-if scenario will go in a reply, but I did also wanna say I'm gonna shoot you an email with some additional resources, so keep an eye out for that.
CONTINUED IN A REPLY BELOW:
CONTINUED FROM ABOVE: To comment on your actual what-if: The map at 25:35 , even given the intended simplicity, has issues. 500BC is pretty late for the Olmec, it's a transition period between them and the Epi-Olmec, and by this point complex societies were popping up all over the place: the Maya and Zapotec writing systems both probably existed by then, and the Zapotec city of Monte Alban would have become an early major center in Oaxaca as of 500BC, in fact likely being Mesoamerica's first true bureaucratic political state, if earlier Zapotec, Maya, Olmec etc centers don't qualify, which is debatable. That in turn is why the statement 28:55 is iffy: The Olmec were definitely NOT a centralized empire, but at best (probably so by this point) a collection of city-states. Even later in the Mesoamerican Classic and Postclassic periods, large scale centralized empires were rare, and larger political bodies tended to be hegemonies: Even the Aztec empire was arguably closer to the Delian/Athenian League or the Holy Roman Empire then say the Roman Empire, though I don't know much about either the Delian or HRE so my analogy could be iffy.
But as I implied with the Zapotec and Maya, the Olmec were not the only civilization here: The Zapotec were a thing in Oaxaca, and there were some early Mixtec villages and towns too, though I'm less familiar with what they were up to this early on. Central Mexico had a variety of towns and some cities, though West Mexico wouldn't urbanize for a while still. The area you have marked as "uncivilized southern tribes" actually would have contained many Maya towns and some larger cities: El Mirador for example in Guatemala would have been in that zone, and in another 2 centuries would become a giant metropolis. The point is, by focusing on the Olmec, you're ignoring the other civilizations in Mesoamerica at the time.
I can't really comment how realistic the exact political and diplomatic situation you set up here is. We don't have written records from this period that we can read (Olmec writing is entirely undeciphered, and Zapotec and Epi-Olmec mostly is as well,. We can read Maya writing, but the earliest surviving Maya writing doesn't show up for another few centuries even if it probably existed at this time) and I'm not really familiar with research which tries to reconstruct the political dynamics during this time period aside from in the Zapotec region, and even that i'm not really well read on. I'm not sure what you're referencing at 33:54, maybe some older publications which argued that the Olmec made colonies in Guatemala, but as I said, it's now thought that most Olmec sites outside of the Olmec Heartland just obtained Olmec style goods or adopted their style, and in fact Maya groups in Guatemala may have even contributed some of the traits we associate with the Olmec style.
Also, I covered it before but many of the images used throughout aren't Olmec, and also are of ruins, not artistic reconstructions of sites in their heyday with all of their infrastructure and buildings: Modern ruins and maps for tourists tend to only have a few key structures visible, out of the dozens or hundreds in the city centers, and the suburbs radiating out around those centers, which in some cases for larger Maya sites could extend for hundreds of square kilometers. There were also roads, aqueducts, terraced farms and other infrastructure, etc. Buildings were also richly painted with murals and frescoes.
Lastly, I see other commenters talking about diseases, but I don't think that changes much: Firstly, the initial smallpox epidemic in actual history "only" wiped out a bit under a third of the Mesoamerican population, the full 90% population collapse took another 80 years and multiple subsequent outbreaks combined with the political and social instability caused by Spanish colonization, which likely exacerbated things (there are studies to back that up). I'd assume Phoenician contact in Mesoamerican would be more gradual and colonization would be not as rapid. Some outbreaks would probably happen, but I don't think it'd cause 90% population losses unless the Phoenicians go out of their way to conquer and displace people.
@USOFZ can you do a 3 part what if timeline.
1, What if America went full Colonial.
Purchasing and Conquering English Carribean, Northern mexico, and Greenland.
2, What if Napoleon accepted the Frankfurt. Proposals and focusing on Economic and Trade dominance over Europe and not conquest.
3, What if Imperial Federation was successful accross european empires specificly Britian and Austria-Hungary.
2 and 3 are boring
.....
1 could be intresting ... as it would ruin the US-british relationship
and the US wouldn´t fund the entente in WWI
............
@@JTL1776 Proposal One though seems highly likely at first, A deeper dive into the actual socioeconomic and political situation of early america shows that it was impossible. Before the ban on slavery the US couldn’t add colonies which the south would see as competitors in the agricultural market also Northern Mexico’s annexation would lead to them just becoming a part of the US and getting integrated. Mexican Resistance would be higher but due to the lower populations America might make them go into the remaining parts of Mexico and make whites colonise the place. There was also high skepticism of the black population increasing. The most that American could do was Canada, North not that populated areas of Mexico, Not the caribbean but most pacific Islands and some tradeports in China and Africa.
@@baronbrummbar8691
Boring????
Napoleon led French Republic through industrialization and the Franco-Prussian War.
And
Early 1900's United Kingdom of Britian and Ireland with the English speaking commonwealths United in a Constitutional Monarchy with a Federal Parliaments.
A Balkans Under an Austria Hungery Imperial Federation and before you say the ethnic and religious differences the nation couldn't form let alone survive tell that to America from 1776 to today.
Clarification I did not say perfect regarding Austria Hungary I said form and survive.
@@NicholasKohen
Baja California would be easily incorporated and Rio Grande Republic like Texas wished to Join the USA to get away from Mexican city tyranny.
So the North South Divide, sure, but northern Mexico wouldn't be an major Internal resistance issue.
@@NicholasKohenThe Spanish Caribbean we already had after the Spanish-American War spanish speaking Carribean would be like Peurto Rico. Until ww2, then the largest islands would likely gain statehood. Like Cuba Hispania.
English speaking Carribean would be easily Colonized and statehood wouldn't be an Issue.
French speaking Carribean would be culturally easier to incorporate as states and France selling them would be likely be easy to make a Deal.
This has been, by far, the best video you've made so far.
The Olmecs did not arrive on the scene with a full-fledged culture, architecture or even a written language. We can see their gradual advancement over time until finally at their last centuries they left their first hieroglyphic recorded date at the end of the BC era. Also, they were not an African colony because there is no similar "mother culture" in Africa that bears any resemblance to Olmec Mexico.
I imagine the competition between Greece and Carthage would be like that between Britain and France.
I also think you should have mentioned the affects of this discovery on the rise of rome and future of the mediterranean.
I've been to Mexico. I've seen Mexicans who could resemble olmecs whilst maintaining distinct Mexican features and not being black.
The Afro-Olmec theory is simply people having never met Mexicans before with similar cranium but with other features absent in Africans such as grown not black skin with It's brownness being copper and not the African sandy brown. There were also skulls found in Canada people thought was evidence of ancient white men. Than we see contemporary dark skin native American with the same skullshape.
Skullshapes aren't good for presuppositions in the native Americans populations.
They're mix descendants of and I see these words loosely so if you quote me you quote this part as to not accuse me of 19th century racism.
The native Americans are compositions of Western Eurasians and Eastern Eurasians and Australian aboriginals moving into the Americas and mixing. Ancient near eastern populations who were brown and had skulls similar to modern middle Easterners, Berbers or Europeans, mixed with ironically mongoloid skulls creating the first Eurasians, though mongoloid is a improper outdated term.
And Australian aboriginals. With some native Americans having been known in South America to resemble Indians from Actual India 🇮🇳 or parts of Melanesia where australoid and "Europid" or "Asiatic" people resemble mix types. And this is from actual genetic evidence.
No nonsense of Aryans + Turks + Africans or Ham Shem Japheth or other pseudo science crap equal native Americans blah blah no that never happened.
It wasn't China western Europe South Africa
It was Australian aboriginals, northeastern Eurasians called the ancient north Eurasians who were "caucasoid" in skullshape, and some ancient Oriental population. But not modern eastern Asian ethnicities rather something ancient.
Given how throughly Rome wiped Charthage and their culture off the map I don't find it much of a stretch that a people who had mastered the sea and sail like the Chaethagains to make it to Mesoamerica. Another thing to keep in mind is just how much was lost when Western Rome fell so it's possible they had some idea of the New World.
Great video and great listen while taking a walk man, keep up the great work
They say Basque and Breton fishermen and seafaring communities had knowledge of the New World for centuries before the Spanish ever came, so I wonder if they would have had knowledge of it back then too.
I genuinely believe the ancient world was far more connected than we're told.
@@n00b5lay3r I think so too. Basque and Breton fisherman were aware of North America and North American fishing areas just off the coast of St. John for centuries, even during the time of the Norse expedition to Canada in 1000. We are now finding new evidence of Polynesian-Native American contact too, such as how sweet potatoes were diffused, as well as cultural, architectural, and linguistic ties.
I would really like to see a part 2 for this scenario
opne factor missing from the scenario; a discussion of the effects of an earlier cross atlantic interchange. as soon as the first phoenicians get back to the homeland you've probably introduced corn to the old world, what else do you think the sailors are gonna trade for to eat on the trip back? you put up a trade colony, boom thats horses and sheep and whatever other farm animals a small phoenician settlement might need, not to mention disease...
Earlier benefits for the Old World, introduction of potatoes, corn, tomato, squash, quinine, etc could have saved tens to hundreds of millions of lives over millennia from disease and famine, if utilized and discovered. Maybe a higher world population to this day?
@@kieranthomas8190old world had no potatoes?
@@wingedhussar1453 No. They originated in Peru, and they didn’t exist until after the Spanish brought them over
Honestly this is such an interesting timeline. Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Also it's strange that he didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to Afro-Eurasian animals most importantly of all being horses plus iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and commercial competition* between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agriculture as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa*..
@@zhcultivator the current theories on the toltecs see them as more of a culture and less of an empire, which would explain the existence of nahuatl areas in central mexico prior to the nahuatlaca migration from nayarit and xalisco
Kind of leaving out the big issue with first contact, disease. Estimates put native population loss at 80-90% from 1500-1700. In Mexico the population went from 22-25 million down to 3 million. The Olmecs with their urbanized population would undoubtably collapse. Plagues wiped out on average a third of populations in the old world when they spread. It's almost impossible to avoid it becoming an issue in the new world.
Agreed. Honestly this is such an interesting timeline. Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Realistically though some other Mesoamerican people like the Proto-Zapotec* might have benefited instead and constructed a vast & wealthy empire instead of say the Maya. Also it's strange that he didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to Afro-Eurasian animals most importantly of all being horses plus iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and commercial competition* between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agriculture as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa*.
YES! LONG VIDEOS! thanks For this! Suggestion: What if Napoleón IV lived?
I'd say he'd just go into regular politics. I doubt he'd try to restore the throne or anything. And that's if he didn't just remain in the military and retire or just become a civilian and chill for the remainder of his life.
A Mormon-funded ship sailed from Tunisia to the D.R.? I didn't see that crossover coming.
Don't you mean a Jewish ship (or ships) sailing across the Atlantic and arriving in Mexico?
I kinda want this to continue.
the Simpsons have an Olmec head in their procession given to them by Mr. Burns
this is my favorite of your videos
really fun would not mind a part 2
fr
Same here.
Honestly this is such an interesting timeline. Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Also it's strange that he didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to Afro-Eurasian animals most importantly of all being horses plus iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and commercial competition* between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agriculture as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa*.
if we're gonna talk ancient peoples boating to america, theres genetic evidence of the polynesians making the journey.
edit: and i see you mention them, cool cool.
We have the best tangents, don’t we folks
Please part 2!!!
Yay my scenario. From the discord anyways. This was very well thought out and cool.
Great video! It will be nice to see more videos about ancient history from you
More are on the way!
This is a new idea I've never heard of 👌👌👌
Another “alternate” idea what if Phoenicians were actually from America and sailed out to Europe and Africa.. Truth stranger than fiction.
I think the Karibs wouldn't have settled the Caribbean yet. So I guess it would be uninhabited, and thus, perfect for Carthagenian settlement.
I think a part two of this scenario, would be fascinating!!
I think your video was interesting, I'd love a sequesl with you guesses on how the new world wouldve grown, and maybe a video on Vinland succeeding some 1500 years later.
Finally good alt history again
Video recommendation:
What if all the Spanish colonies united just like the North American colonies?
Fantastic historical preamble - provides great context.
An interesting and fascinating scenario for sure. I am very intrigued by the Carthaginian naval power and it honestly seems plausible that they would have been able to reach America. Of course, in my opinion, those did (and if they) reached the New World would have either been killed or at the very least not have been able to find their way back home
Still, the scenario presented here is quite an underrated topic, as it's always crazy to imagine communication between the Ancient World and the American content
As always, great work, keep it up Z!
Great to see you here, bro! 😎
6:05 hmm, where have a i heard this story before?
I never imagined it was possible to repeat the same sentence in so many different ways. I want you to listen to this video and take a shot every time you say something along the lines of "Phoenicians sailed better than we could have ever imagined" I promise you you'll be blackout drunk by the fourth minute because you don't stop repeating that sentence over and over again.
What about diseases like measles and tuberculosis? If the New World had exposure to these disease millennia before the European age of exploration, this could render native states like future Mesoamerica, Andean, Mayan, or Mississppian cultures stronger and more resistant to European diseases and exploitation. Maybe technology would not be so advanced, but the influence of just a few Old World settlers would still show, if not in demographics (due to disease resistance after initial plagues) but in culture and architecture as well. Could future hybrid Greco-Mesoamerican or Carib/Taino civilizations have developed seafaring skills enough for there to be a Reverse Columbian exchange eventually if such skills were taught? It's hard to say.
The first ever reported case of measles in humans is from around the 4th century BC and its actual rapid divergence from rinderpest was between 1100 and 1200 AD. TB is much older, but not nearly as dramatic and never ended up causing a natural societal immunity effect until the modern vaccine era. This scenario starts in 500 BC, so basically: the groups you mentioned are still totally screwed.
OR this might happen; Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Alternatively, Teotihuacan** could build a gargantuan Mesoamerican Empire instead making them the ''Persians of Mesoamerica'' culturally, civilization-wise and linguistically so future invaders/or newcomers of Mesoamerica would be Teotihuacanized* like the process of Persianization in the Iranian Plateau in the old world. Also it's strange that you didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to horses and iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and trade struggle between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisicated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agricultural complexity such as the Upano Valley Sites' inhabitants as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa. In addition, the Khmer Empire-like Amazonian Civilization would likely use the Phoenician Alphabet for writing and could make contact with the Andean civilizations like the Tiwanaku* polity who would become the romans of the Andes essentially imo. Also the Maya, if they won out in the end as Mesoamerica's great power and expanded they take on a ''civilizing mission'' towards the non-Maya peoples of Central America and the Chichimeca... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanos_de_Moxos_(archaeology)
Alternatively, Greco-Mississippian art and Punic-Mesoamerican political development would happen which would certainly be interesting..
In addition: some Native Americans like the Apache, Comanche and maybe the Hopi would become the Huns & Mongols of this timeline's North America invading Mesoamerica and getting culturally assimilated only to be replaced in a new wave by another fearsome nomadic Native American horse-riding people...
What's funny is that I was actually searching up scenarios on what if the phenoesans survived, so that's pretty cool I guess.
(ALSO WHEN IS THE ZOROASTRIAN RECONQUESTA COMING OUT IT'S BEEN SO LONG 😭😭😭😭)
I hit writers block on the Zoroastrian video and a historian of Persian history ghosted me so I tabled it for a few weeks. Rn I’m working on some collabs and other projects but it’ll still be published probably by December
Finally something interesting...
3:22 Easy, the Egyptians expected the Phonecians to die along the way and wanted the Phonecians out of their hair
I'd imagine that Rome would be very interested in more conquests.
Id imagine not. At some point they cared for defence only of their empire not conquest.
@wingedhussar1453 Well they would be finding out about America during their expansionist period.
early! (will edit comment if I have something to say after watching)
edit: this desperately needs a part 2. a lot of the video was more "Delving into potential pre-columbian Old World influences in the New World " which left much to be desired about an actual alternate history delving into "What if Carthage Discovered America?" Im excited to see how this timeline develops if you continue it
Honestly this is such an interesting timeline. Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Realistically, the Mayans would be the one capable of building such a large empire with iron weapons and horses plus maybe elephants too bought from the Carthaginians. Also it's strange that he didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to Afro-Eurasian animals most importantly of all being horses plus iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and commercial competition* between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agriculture & complexity as well like the Inhabitants of the Upano Valley* sites, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa*...The Native American Cultures such as the Mississippians in OTL (our timeline) Southern USA would develop faster with shorter travel/communication times and develop a trading relationship with the Carthaginians via likely Carthaginian trade ports in Louisiana, Florida, Mississippi, Texas and Alabama.
This was great stuff
what do you mean if it happens? They would just get kicked out of there by the locals.
Rome were the most liekly to colonize as they wanted to spread everywhere but later on they cared about defence of the empire not spreading.so this is probably why they never even went there aswell as ships tevhnology wasnt there to waste time and resources to live somewhere else.
@ no they did not spread everywhere they can’t even take care of Germany
If they set up trading outposts in West Africa wouldn't West Africans eventually make their way to the Americas as well? Several West African kingdoms & empires existed in the region. I don't see why the Phoenicians wouldn't set up alliances with them
They would but considering most people on this side of Alternate History Tube they touch anything related sub-Saharan Africa.
@CahokiaOfficial it's like they're scared or hate Africa or something. It's wild
@@GAZAMAN93X IKR, but as an African I am used to it now...
Yeah they definitely would have done so..
Since the timeline's Mesoamericans especially the Maya would have ironworking and horses earlier from the Phoenician Carthaginians, that could mean that they would be more expansionist and build a massive Maya Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs or larger than the Toltec Empire really. Alternatively, Teotihuacan** could build a gargantuan Mesoamerican Empire instead making them the ''Persians of Mesoamerica'' culturally, civilization-wise and linguistically so future invaders/or newcomers of Mesoamerica would be Teotihuacanized* like the process of Persianization in the Iranian Plateau in the old world. Also the Natives would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to horses and iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and economic competition between the various Indigenous Amerindians in the Americas may spark a large technological arms race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agricultural complexity such as the Upano Valley Sites' inhabitants as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa. In addition, the Khmer Empire-like Amazonian Civilization would likely use the Phoenician Alphabet for writing and could make contact with the Andean civilizations like the Tiwanaku* polity who would become the romans of the Andes essentially imo. Also the Maya, if they won out in the end as Mesoamerica's great power and expanded they could take on a ''civilizing mission'' towards the non-Maya peoples of Central America and the Chichimeca...replicating European colonialism with their own Maya colonization efforts. Finally since the Amerindians would have rough technological parity (with the exception* of gunpowder weapons) with Afro-Eurasia, this would make European colonization of the Americas far more difficult to achieve.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanos_de_Moxos_(archaeology)
Mayans doing child sacrifice: for our gods
Phoenicians later Carthaginians doing the same thing: Wow im a fan of your work.
I really enjoyed it ❤
Curious how the impact of disease would have shaped the early contact?
With the long journey and small numbers it may have been possible to avoid the transmission of some infectious agents - maybe? I reckon smallpox & measles, among other common infections that had arisen by 500 BC would have ravaged the indigenous populations, as it did in our timeline.
Honestly this is such an interesting timeline. Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Also it's strange that he didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to Afro-Eurasian animals most importantly of all being horses plus iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and commercial competition* between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agriculture as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa*...
Zoroastrian reconquestia video when?
Soon!! But I have a handful of other projects slated before it
Phoenicians sail to the Olmecs, Phoenicians sail back. The next year they sail to the Olmecs again: Weird, seems like 90% of them mysteriously died.
This is an incredible voyage by Mediterranean standards. To make it happen regularly there needs to be some huge incentive, like gold was for the Spanish. I'd start with Episode I: How the Carthaginians colonised the Gold Coast of Africa and then Episode II: How Carthagianised Africans from the Gold Coast Colonised America.
35:00 Why would they wait for word from home? There would already be trade routes existing. Nothing is there to stop them from starting to trade with the Romans for what they needed or wanted from the old world.
What if America discovered cartage
with what a Cano ?
@@baronbrummbar8691 no, they use alien technology, to teleport to the old world, of course duh.
Cartage
@@Ethnogoblin is he stupid?
It wasn’t
Most the Impact would the Carthage would be in on the northern Coast in Southern America.
Great video
Awesome video!
Brilliant
I want episode on Australian civilization like South Australia has a big area where race in grain can grow that area should be getting Australian civilization
Now do what if Rome colonized America.
This is my dream long alternative history videos
Can we have a video like "what if saxony unified germany" or something similar
21:44 - Small error here. It was not the Assyrians who were conquered by the Persians. The Assyrian were conquered by the Neo-babylonians and were fully annexed by 612 BC. Shortly after that, in 539 BC, the Neo-babylonians were conquered by the Persians.
important comment, the caribs were not yet even out of Guyana by the 1st millenium BC, the caribbean was in the east populated by the Taíno peoples and in the west by extinct peoples related to the ciguayo and guanahatabey peoples
If they had metal weapons it would have been more difficult for the Spanish and other European people to conquer them and they probably would have been exposed waaaay earlier to old world diseases so if this would have happened i think it would have been a bit More difficult for european conquest
Plz do a part 2
Humans have been in the Americas since 25k bc, so there's that.
Отличное название канала, наш слон
Гойда!
What we know is that if America was colonized by the phoenicians, we would have seen similar art, similar calligraphy and similar technology of the time
10:17 i think the sea peoples are literally Proto Ertuscans, Scythians, Sardinians, and Illyrians
I swear I remember seeing something that compared the scripts of the incan language and compared it with Linear A. It also said that incan nobles looked different and spoke a different language than commoners. Anyone else know what I'm talking about? I swear I'm not insane.
2:17 except there is no way they'd sail from west Africa to Cape of good hope.
There’s some evidence that the Phoenicians and Carthaginians may visited the Americas such as the Waubansee Stone in Illinois. However, if they settled in the Americas, they would have been chased out by the Native AmerIndian people like the Vikings who called them skraelings (terrible people) or they would have intermarried with them like the Roanoke Colony settlers or the Polynesians in South America.
George Washington built Carthage is a couple of weeks with his own hands
I think eventually or in short order ships from Americas would've traveled back to Europe to restart or never fully lose contact.
Maybe the arrival of the Phoenicians caused a disease outbreak that led to the fall of the Olmec?
LOVE YOUR CONTENT! THANKS FOR THIS ❤❤❤❤❤
PLEASE DO A PART 2: in which the politics of Alexander's conquests & the Punic Wars ate strongly reverberated amongst the Greek & Phoenician New World colonies 🙏 🙏 🙏
Wasn’t the Assyrian empire succeeded by the Babylonian Empire? Because in your video these appear switched
Maybe a small number of people reach américa along the centuries and gave a bit of inffluence to the culture there, but they we're too few to really make a great change in the genes (sorry for the bad English)
All of these theories of ancient civilizations reaching the Americas are just an extension of the Black Legend.
Im a mormon and I thank you for this video. I truly do believe the world was much more globalized then we believe, Just like we have crazy people today who want to go to unmapped parts of the amazon, There was crazy people back then who wondered what was on the other side of the ocean.
what if Maria Theresia (or to be precise her father) accepted the marriage proposal of prince Friedrich in Prussia (later to be known as Friedrich the Great)
Africans reaching America: from racism
Polynesians reaching America: could explain why chickens exist in Peru and how Sweet Potatos reach Oceania and East Asia.
part 2 plsssss
No ancient culture would ever do this and colonize other continent wasting their own money and time. Vikings tried but abonded it as it was to costly and not needed. What were you sacking exactly ,wood and trinkets,its not worth it. Spain only did it becauae of gold ,ancient cultures didnt have the proper navigation or tools to Even attempt this,spain had technological advanents that allowed them to take over the areas, later on religious problems forcwd people to move to the continent. Rome would nevwr attempt this as it wasnt neeeded nor Greeks, it would take alot for this to happen
Can you make a video about what if the Crown of Aragon won the battle of Muret in the Albigensian Crusade?
The tales of the Olmec-Phoenician Civilization across the sea would be held in the same regard as Atlantis by the time of Columbus.
The rediscovery of the lost civilization would be shocking, to say the least. How would the Renaissance Intelligencia and Artists react to the rediscovery of this ancient civilization? As self-proclaimed students of the Ancient World, the lost exclave of that world surviving and thriving after all this time would no doubt excite them.
Huh a remake
When did library of Alexandria burn. Maybe it had the maps of a whole Africa
20 minutes in, and we finally get to the scenario...someone insert a Bobby B meme 💀
this has got graham handcock all over it
Qart Hadasht in SC is funny
what if rhodesia never died?
Since the Olmecs would have ironworking and horses from the Phoenician Carthaginians, could that mean they would be more expansionist and build a massive Olmec Empire reaching the size of the (maybe semi-mythical) Toltecs?? or not? Also it's strange that you didn't mention African and Eurasian diseases devastating the Indigenous Amerindian peoples meaning they would have greater disease resistance, they would be more advanced with access to horses and iron weaponry from the Carthaginians earlier so Native Amerindians would be able to create bigger civilizations and in fact the political and trade struggle between Carthage & the Greeks in the Americas may spark a large technological race accelerating tech innovations & development in the Americas. Considering that some Indigenous pre-columbian cultures of Brazil were capable of sophisticated pottery making like the Marajaora & were capable of agriculture as well, I think they would trade with the Carthaginians in ATL (this alternate timeline's) Guianas/Brazil and expand so we could see an Amazonian* civilization on par with the Khmer Empire eventually form with technological exchange with the Carthaginians. Also Afro-Eurasia would get access to New World crops like maize and potatoes wayyy earlier than in our timeline transforming food production and population growth in Europe/the Middle East and North Africa.* Also the Khmer Empire-like Amazonian Civilization would likely use the Phoenician Script for writing.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanos_de_Moxos_(archaeology)
And then British in America pilgrims would say: "we've found the lost tribes of Israel! They even speak a variant of Hebrew"