The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword's dungeon design | Boss Keys
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
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Boss Keys is an on-going research project to analyse the level design of the dungeons in The Legend of Zelda. This time, we're looking at the Wii game, Skyward Sword.
Contribute translated subtitles - amara.org/v/C3...
"We noticed that there was an important chest in the underworld.
And then Fi told us that there was an important chest in the underworld"
LMAO
Aaaand suddenly I'm having flashbacks.
Skyward sword in a nutshell.
Master
British man strongly prefers and defends branching paths and spatial recognition
News at 11
truer words were never spoken
I think I love you
How do you know he's British and not English?
Mark Brown you are so brave for sharing your story
Not only does Skyward sword have some super incredible dungeons, but some of these items are just incredibly fun to use. I found myself whipping out the whip and beetle on a bunch of sections of the game where I didn't actually need them, just because they were fun to play with. AND on top of those, Groose is my favorite Zelda character.
Skward sword really didn't earn all the hate it gets.
...Just, like, a third of it.
Imo, it's biggest flaws are the handholding, the insane amount of wasted potential regarding the Sky and the ''linking pieces'' between each third of the game...you know, always going back to Skyloft to insert the stone tablets and always having to fly to the Isle of Songs.
It's kinda sad that people blow the issues of Skyward Sword so out of proportion, when every Zelda game has issues.
I really didn't like most of the items you got. It just never felt like an epic fantasy tale - a bellows? A whip? These are my tools? The final item being the bow - something you often get at the start of the game, that just shoots a projectile... I dunno, it lost a lot of its grandeur.
the bellows and whip are versions of an item you get in older zelda games, the gust jar and grappling hook. they weren't introduced by skyward sword.
Honestly the dungeons in this Zelda bored me. Every last one of them disappointed me. Especially the Fire Sanctuary, and mostly for the lack of macro puzzle design as the author mentions. One self-contained puzzle after another is not to my liking, especially when the majority of them are mindless to begin with (notice I said majority).
BotW's dungeons made me so happy to play through, and sad that there aren't more of them and that I'd have to start a new game to replay them.
It was definitely a good game but didn't reach its potential. The map is small with lots of backtracking, the sky has little to do when flying around and fi likes to treat you like an idiot by explaining what's going on right in front of you. Previous Zelda games at subtle means to visually point you in the right direction but fi throws that out the window by suggesting the actual hint. Motion controls made it much more fun and the items compensated well. Luckily the restrictions and hand holding were harshly criticized which lead aounuma to give us a game like breath of the wild that treats us with respect as gamers.
This video got released early by accident yesterday. Sorry to anyone whose comments got gobbled up in the transition!
Is it essentially the same video or does it have some differences?
No changes. Though if you want to watch it again, I won't stop you...
The one released yesterday was only in 360p
I'll definitely watch it again
I guess I'll just have to watch it again ;)
That editing though, Jeez. Link backflipped from one temple to another: 13:53
Nice one.
That stone tablet honestly struck me as the first time I understood why people complained about SS and hand-holding.
I mean, we already have Fi and the Sheikah Stone video hints, why do they need to literally spell it out right there? If I want a hint I'll press Fi's button, and if I want it explicitly shown to me I'll go to the Sheikah stone.
Also, it doesn't make any sense storywise. Why would there even BE a stone tablet with such specific orders in the temple?!
When it's based on a story, then you could see it as the narrator speaking and leading the hero to victory.
I mean I know a lot of people that would have jumped down in the water and have forgotten about the switch on the wall.
(Not sure if this was the first switch in the game that was revertable)
@@RealRomplayer The majority of dungeons don’t make sense story wise anyway. Why are there keys and locked door laid out in a linear fashion? Although I will admit that tablet is a particularly jarring example
I think Skyward Sword was, level design-wise, *all about* the dungeon. The areas you used to get to the dungeons felt like dungeons, too, in a lot of ways: the spaces are very restricted in how you traverse them, at the very least on your first pass - see the way you use logs in the Kikwi section of Faron Woods or mine carts in the main ruins of Lanayru Desert, to open a wider network of paths so retraversal becomes easier, but the first time through you navigate the space looking for your objectives and you have to deal with the puzzles in the same way you have to in a regular dungeon.
This is my first time playing Skyward Sword and... I don't know. The linearity of the game doesn't bothers me that much, because the dungeon design is just soo sublime. And I enjoy exploring... as much as I can, the different locations of the map. The desert in particular is fun for me.
I agree with you. Skyward Sword is one of my very favorite games. There aren’t really any bad Zelda games aside from those weird ones on CDI.
13:53 that transition
Pupper-O One of my proudest faps.
This is quite the old video, but seeing as how the HD remake came out recently, I wanted to revisit this series and see how I felt after having replayed the game after quite some time.
I do have one reservation about a comment made at about 13:20, regarding the solution being given on the map and how this is poor design. I'd argue the exact opposite.
It actually is a continuation of a system introduced near the beginning of the Lanayru desert, where you realize that your map is only of the present day desert and does not accurately represent the state of the desert in the past. The resolution is to have a robot from the past to update your map with the past geography, revealing paths that are hidden underneath the quicksand and allowing you to traverse paths you couldn't before.
This dungeon does the same here, with the path underneath the quicksand being shown on the map, but otherwise having the path be entirely hidden. It has you rely on past experiences that you went through to unlock the dungeon itself, and then asks you to use that knowledge within the dungeon to progress. You're never prompted to look at this information, you simply rely on your own memory and intuition to look at the map and have that "ah ha!" moment of realizing that the paths from the past are still present in the... present.
i don't think he was saying it was so much of poor design but more of that it is easy to forget. generally there are clues in the dungeon to know where to go and even with trial and error it is not that difficult. what i would say is poor design is improper enemy placements most notably with the froaks in the ancient cistern's narrow underwater passages or the electric chuchu in the mining facility respawning near the ledge where you got the lone small key. on the initial route, it is easy to safely deal with, but when returning from the gust bellows room, it is way too tight. fortunately, there are not many moments where poor enemy placement occurs in this game but they do appear sometimes.
Somethin no one ever talks about with skyward sword is how just works traversal in general (outside flying) requires puzzle solving and engaging experiences. Going to a desert temple? Well the path there is going to introduce you do some mechanics that will be taken to the next level in said temple. It's really awesome and I wish more people would give it recognition
I personally hated that aspect of the game, with a passion. Instead of feeling like a living and breathing world like the previous games, this game just made it feel like never ending obstacle courses.
@@JeffDoogins living and breathing like WW and TP's empty overworlds?
Your Breath of he Wild countdown was amazingly kindhearted. Seriously, the respect for someone who potentially hasn't played or is trying to keep spoiler free is great. Thanks Mark!
I know everybody hates Fi, but the second I heard her sound effect in Breath of the Wild all of that just faded away, replaced with surprise and joy at finally meeting a familiar face, if only indirectly. It's incredibly heartwarming to think that Fi has always been there, gently helping Link throughout all his incarnations, just as she did for the Hero of the Sky :)
There is an aspect of the Temples (Cistern - Ship) that seems most people miss:
The Cistern focuses on facing the fears and going literally hell and back again. You know developing courage.
The Fire Temple focuses on the your battle prowess and proving your strength. The dungeon doesn't need to be complex in layout because it's a test of power.
The Ship is arguably on the most complex dungeons in the game. You need to be smart and use all the knowledge you gain so far. This dungeon is about your knowledge or wisdom.
So I always view the last 4 dungeons as exploring what it means to have the Triforce.
Agreed. I feel like his criteria for judging Zelda dungeons is too narrow (and honestly heavily biased towards his personal preferences). How a dungeon contributes to the overarching themes and goals of the game should really be evaluated as well, not just... whether it forces you to make a map in your head.
Also, Skyward Sword's dungeons feature elements that are also introduced in the overworld. So going into a dungeon isn't a huge environemntal contrast and I like that.
Skyward Sword HD is really the way to play this game now. The motion controls are not only far better but also completely optional, eliminating all frustration and allowing the brilliant level design to shine through.
Well yea the HD version is better but I’d say the motion controls are inferior with the lack of sensor back for automatic gyro calibration
I don't get what is so "bad" about going back and forth between areas. I loved going back to Faron Woods just to find it completely flooded, or going through Eldin Volcano as a stealth section (Wayyyy better than the one from Wind Waker, btw).
Also, the combat is probably the best and most engaging in the series, not sure why people had so much trouble with motion controls.
I think overall people underrate this game so much when imo the only bad thing about it is Fi and how all the areas are disconnected from each other.
Gabriel Rivero The thing about back tracking in this game is, it's very fun in any game when you're forced to do it. Especially in Skyward sword where you do that 3 times per area. Especially when, when you do that, they can often boot you to the beginning of the stage and have to trek through the entire thing just because of some contrived reason. This wouldn't be so bad if A: it didn't do that and B: you can freely teleport between each save point. And people don't enjoy the combat is bacause: there's not much depth and it's extremely annoying at times. Fighting a Bokoblin is a good example. So the game expects you to attack an enemy with a specific direction swung by the sword. This is indicated by which direction the enemy is blocking with their weapon. But at least 9/10 the enemy will just magically block that attack, despite the enemy blocking in another direction. Granted, Bokoblins are the only enemy that does this, but this principle of combat design makes every enemy feel the same. The shielded enemies are, granted, defeated in a different way, but it's easily killable by just slicing up its shield and then just spamming your sword swings until it dies, occasionally doing a shield parry. So technically, the combat is more complicated than most Zelda games, but the combat itself is very superficially designed. Especially when it requires 1:1 motion controls, which no matter how perfectly responsive they might be, will never be as responsive and precise as a simple button press.
Ora Saikatsu For me, skyward swords combat is just far more fun and engaging than any other Zelda game. Button mashing doesn’t really compare to 1:1 sword combat even if it’s not always 100% accurate
Gabriel Rivero I totally agree
@@DeMomcalypseLive except there is depth to fighting enemies and makes it so you simply can't button mash through. also not it's not 9/10 the bokoblin will block the attack you just gotta learn how to strike correctly and at the right time.yeah you can spam at a moblin but there are some where you can't just break the shield and with there size whenever there placed on a rather narrow pathway they can be a pain at times honestly. I wouldn't say it's superficially designed either. as for the backtracking it does gett annoying always being telaported to the beginning point although for the last time for faron woods I kind of got that one. however the areas themselves do expand as you explore further so yeah
And well, IDK why people tend to ignore others faults like forcing you to fight while flying with janky flight controls.
One correction: Fi doesn't spoil that arrow puzzle unless you prompt her. That's always how it's gone when I played at least.
She is bad anyway. One of the worst sidekick ever.
So is Midna even worse because she interrupts you and gives you more hints than Fi does?
Midna? It's not even comparable... Fi is the worst at everything!
Here's the thing though, she makes quite literally the most annoying beeping sound in the world that will make you claw your eyes out if you don't answer it.
I think Fi's beeping is the major contributor to her despised status, IMO. (That and her Cap'n Obvious tendencies)
4:24 I love that animation! How long did that take to make? Including the modelling?
Patreon money speaking
Lots of time tweaking, iterating, and messing with it! Pleased with the final version, though :D
KEINNAME21 | LUKI1051 yeah, that was pretty great!
Well I got here to ask a question, but Auran Crash asked it for me!
true
I actually really liked Skyward Sword, from the art direction to the colorful characters to the neat dungeons. I felt the game also put more effort into getting you attached to the people populating the game, especially Zelda.
(*SPOILER*)
Especially when Zelda is going to sleep, and Link is smacking on the crystal separating them. The dialogue combined with her lullaby combined with Link's frantic banging made me tear up, and the tears came faster when Link looked like he was about to cry too.
I also got emotional at the end of the game when Fi went back to sleep into the Master Sword. I actually liked Fi, even though I hated the low batteries prompt, but the character grew on me. She wasn't Midna, but I definitely appreciated her way more than I did Navi. When I heard her chime in Breath of the Wild, I actually leapt up and shouted. :')
(*END SPOILER*)
Anyways, I liked the game and I enjoyed it even though some of the repetition was annoying and god did I hate battling and sealing that stupid monster over and over and over again. Is it my favorite Zelda game? No, not even close. But is it a good game that I enjoyed playing? Yes, yes it is.
The only thing that truly made me want to rage quit was the controls. I had to play on the Wii version because I do not own the switch version, and that was angering. I think the silent realms also kind of sucked as well, but they were very satisfying to finish. But I think what Skyward Sword has going for it is the story. The story is what keeps the player engaged, as so many amazing things happen in it, I mean, the whole game is literally about forging the master sword, how cool is that!?
I just finished Skyword Sword HD and it was great. Fi doesn’t give us a hint anyway unless requested, and the level design of each area/dungeon was fantastic. It’s well worth a play even after 10 years from release!
This video made me really realize how much better the remake is in some ways compared to the original. The simple aspect of removing Fi from helping you with the puzzles made the game much better
sand ship i actually got stumped with the combination puzzle and when i asked fi for help she told me something i already suspected.
Funny coincidence; I just finished SS for the first time, and wondered if there'd be a BossKey episode on it. There wasn't one yesterday, but I got one now!
As an old Zelda fan, I was sure I'd hate and steam through SS in no time at all, especially after hearing for years how simple and casual it is.
I honestly have no idea where these people are coming from! The game's gorgeous, the characters and world lovable and fleshed out, and there was even some truly brick-shitting and otherwise emotional moments in the game. Sure, the temples aren't exactly too complex for the most part as shown in this video, but that's because SS pretty much uses "temples" as an extension to the major areas they reside in. And as always, having to do all the requirements to move forward is totally different task than just describing it. Outside the temple / surface adventuring, there's also a lot of what I'd call "slice of life" gameplay, which again is something past Zeldas have barely touched upon. Skyloft really starts to feel like a home, and using it as the main hub is genius.
I never expected to say this, but SS easily BTFO of Twilight Princess. It's almost hovering somewhere between WW and N64's Zeldas in my books now.
Skyward Sword has a lot of really good stuff going for it. My problem as is the problem for many people, is that it seems to have no respect for my intelligence, initiative or time as a player. Especially early on. Phi is by far the worst offender and the game would be much better if she barely talked except when you specifically ask her for help.
Teemuslayer Pretty intresting that Skyward Sword is still such a controversial game. For me, its definitly my least favorite zelda game ever.
I think Zelda ,in general, appeals to so many people because of how much diversity there is, in the content. There are fights, secrets, great characters, a good story, fun puzzles, an intresting world etc. . Skyward Sword did nothing of what i , personally, liked in the Zelda games. It was way to easy and hand holding, i never had the feeling of freedom or exploration, i didnt liked the graphic style ( very personal opinion), Phi was such an annoying character and it was pretty repetitive for me.
Still intresting to see some other opinions on the game :)
Teemuslayer I sorta disagree with you:
First, i think this game was not THAT linear but repetitive. You are told to do the same task 3 times: get the mastersword via something i can't even remember (maybe because it wasn't enough memorable), then merge it with the sacred fires and finally getting those song pieces via the hypneas (you know, those stealth trials, i think that's its name, at least it's in spanish). McGuffins went TOO far in this game.
Then, i really hate how the upper worlds works. Sure they made it «big» and quick travelling with these rocks-portals-like, but at least there was no fun rather than getting the chest you unlocked via divine cubes. Who else went exploring Celestia? I didn't at least.
After that, story wasn't well told. It always goes the same way: hi its someone new you haven't ever seen, meet us and get to the temple, or, this is an ancient McGuffin, go get it and hope you'll meet someone else. I prefer how TP went the first half of the game, bcus it wasn't all about getting to the temple but developing a story. (Once you get and beat the Desert Temple (don't know its name), it became as «shitty» as the estructure in SS, do something and get the McGuffin.
Finally, motion controls weren't that bad, the bow is way broken (reason you get it at the end of the game), dungeons like the fourth, the sixth and last one are great tho others just aren't good enogh.
As TheJmix said, it is hand holding like the most and i didn't find any hard puzzle to beat, and the ones they are, phi destroyed them. I didnt got stuck but in the second «run» of the forest temple, where i wasn't sure if link could crouchwhile diving, what i tried before but didn't work.
Teemuslayer, skyloft was nice, and it served as a tutorial, but didn't feel awarded enough of solving citizens problems and tasks (that starbits were «prizeless», i still dont know what they did when you get'em all)
Skyward Sword is easily the most polarizing game of the Franchise. Many people love it, many zelda fans hate it. I personally love it for its story and world building and for its combat. It is really unfortunate that Fi has gotten the burden of a tutorial heavy character, because if you look past that bit, she is really interesting. But even if you ignore Fi, the game still has more memorable characters than any other Zelda game.
SPOILERS AHEAD:
The story is also the best in any Zelda game. While the intro is long and then over the course of the first three dungeons nothing much happens, it gets really intense afterwards. I think it is ingeneous how this game featured two endings that would eventually lead to the second timeline split in Ocarina of Time, because one time Demise is destroyed by the wish of the Triforce and on the other timeline he is killed by Link, but not before placing a curse on Link that would eventually lead to the defeat of his descendant.
I think the thing that makes or breaks the game for most people is either the motion controls or the handling of the three overworld areas, which feel more like dungeons themselves than like actual overworlds. Each overworld forces you to find your way through it, but in the meantime you open it up for backtracking by rolling logs, blowing up walls or pushing mine carts. And when you are done uncovering the place, you are presented with a challenge of finding something in that now open area that you unlocked (Kikwis, Pieces of a Key, Mechanisms). As a result of this mechanic, the game feels like there is no real open area like Hyrule Field but instead there is even more dungeons in between dungeons. It is actually a lot like Wind Waker's Approach where there is no "Hyrule Field" either. You just have the Great Sea which is a lot like the Sky in Skyward Sword und the Islands oftentimes feature mini-dungeons.
MidnaSMW I think where the games starts to fail is in these «dungeons before real dungeons». It feels like Nintendo wanted to give sense to an area, therefore we have that. That exploration feeling «that everyone seems to claim now bcus of BoTW» is entirely gone, areas dont feel like real nature-made but a place to do stuff that kept the story spaced. Instead, something like missions in a greater world, missions concerned as a way to promote the exploration it lacks. way,wayisitowouldamake bebetterxexperienceWhen i first played it, i felt really dissapointed because there was no way to travel between the three mains areas, which would give a better sense of what it is supposed to be, the roots of what we know as the world of Hyrule
Thank you for calling attention to how amazing the Koloktos fight was. That, the pre-boss escape sequence in the Sandship, and the final Ghirahim fight alone were worth the price of admission to me.
I know this was only a stray thought at the end of the video, but where you said "the game starts you with six hearts" is technically wrong, you start with the exact same amount of health as in every other zelda game becase you can't take quarter heart damage in skyward sword, and it actually means even if you get every health upgrade you actually have less health than you would in any other zelda game
while it doesn't make the game any harder, as heart drops are still common as dirt, but it's just interesting to note
That's interesting. I never realized, that there are no quarter hearts.
But some games do start you with 3 and have no quarters...
and getting max health requires you to make a choice between health and other items (with the heart medallions)
Well unless you play hero mode and avoid using the heart medal, then it is as hard as at least A Link to the Past.
now, I love this game, but I suggest you check out 13:54
I love the dungeon designs of these games because I was cleaning while listening to this and could remember every room as you described them
This is the only channel where I get a rush of excitement whenever there's a new upload. It's a weird feeling.
Noah Roush I have a few of those, but true
I'm still strongly believe that Skyward Sword had at least three seperate teams working on it, As the desert levels are a work of brilliance, yet the fire and forest levels are unbelievably boring to play.
Whoever put those music notes hunting segment in the forest level needs to be punched in the throat.
eh...I wouldn't say the fire was that boring the forest was the worst but it wasn't that bad honestly. I agree about the music note hunting segment in the forest part being annoying I've heard the original tri force quest in wind waker was even worse though
I love Faron Woods and Eldin Volcano
it's just a game, chill. no reason to hit someone in the throat. It is obviously true, that there worked different people on different areas and you can read about their design philosophies in the iwata asks series. absolutely fascinating to read.
@@StarWarsUnited123 People don't care about certain things. They wish anybody anything if they have an opinion.
Every day people are insulting any kind of zelda Game for any kind of reason and if anybody says otherwise they're trash.
I am not saying op is like that but he is obviously not going to respond because he doesn't care what you say.
I am not insulting you I am just thinking how sad it is that such thing is normal.
@@leonakuma601 yes
I actually really liked Skyward Sword.
Fight me.
I do to it's one of my favorite games
One of my favorite standard Zelda stories.
Played it for the first time a few weeks ago, I totally agree. Was set up for disappointment since so few people nowadays speak positively about it, but I was delighted by it.
"Master, it seems that this individual really likes Skyward Sword, you may have to fight him about it."
There is no need to fight you, its your opinion, just like how its his opinion that pineapple pizza is good and its my opinion that tetris is one of the best things ever made by the human race aND MY BROTHER SAYS THAT NO ONE PLAYS TETRIS IN 2017
4:14 I love that subtle shade you threw on fi.
Skyward Sword's Armos are honestly some of my favourite monsters in terms of design. They can only move within a certain area, so them hopping huge distances to stomp on Link isn't as intimidating as he can just leave that range briefly, and to expose their vulnerability, he has to use the Gust Bellows on their pinwheels. Such a fun mini-boss design.
I like how level-headed you were despite not liking the game. I personally love this game, it is padding sometimes but it has in my opinion the best story and the most lovable Zelda. And Groose, let's not forget about him. What did you think about the characters and story?
There was way too much of it
isnt that a nice problem ;) too much game too much story
then again what is the alternative ? not enough story and a way shorter game so people can complain about paying 60$ for a short game
Mordin Solis Or an awesome game with a lackluster story cough..Breath of the Wild..cough..
"Too much of it"? You're one of those that views games as entertainment and not as an art form with it's own narrative?
while the story could definitly be meatier(at least without the dlc coming this holiday), i do have to say, if there was too much of it(it being game) what will he think about BOTW which actualy has almost too much content, even if you dont do all the koroc seeds.(i have 120ish seeds and all shrines completed the story and am missing 2 sidequests. and i am at 180h of playtime)
LINK BETWEEN WORLDS HYPE
the hype i can feel it
Sandship and Ancient Cistern. Basically the two best dungeons of the game by a long shot.
With the Sandship double door puzzle; I REALLY liked Skyward Sword myself and even I got lost in that part and I think others did too due to the fact that most players don't "look up" during games. In Portal's "Developer's Notes", they mention they had to change the look of a room and have platforms that come out just so the player learns to start looking up when they go into a room.
I’m glad that despite our disagreements about the overall quality of the game, almost everyone agrees the dungeons are great
I think that most of the hate just comes from the bad motion controls
Im sure that this game would improve a lot with better motion controls in the switch
Maybe even take away some hints and some of Fi's dialogue
I always found the controls to be fine honestly, but fair enough
Comment from the far-future, but for me, it was entirely the stupid toe smashing Demise boss that decreased my enjoyment of the game.
The motion controls were actually very good. The problem is that people didn’t understand how to use the wii motion plus properly and Nintendo didn’t do a good job explaining the important of the sensor bar and the correct distance to be from it to have the best experience. People having issues with calibration would’ve likely had no issues if they used the sensor bar properly as the sensor bar automatically recalibrated the wii motion plus once it detected it. But if you had something like a candle near to it it could fuck up the IR sensor and make it go out of wack. That’s why some people had little to no issues with the motion controls and it was unplayable for others. I guarantee if people understood how to use it properly there wouldn’t be this big issue with the motion controls among Zelda fans
You really hit the nail on the head lolll
'Scrumptious' is just one of those really satisfying words that makes me smile when I hear or say it.
Scrumptious.
Mark, i appreciate greatly the spoiler alert for breath of the wild. great video also. i haven't studied game design, but i remember very clearly, after completing the sandship dungeon, i felt very impressed at how the game designers really thought about the architecture. the 3D space that each room of the dungeon occupy in relation to each other. i could really feel that intention in their design, i was not aware that it stood out to me because it was missing in previous titles.
When I watched this while the title was wrong, the buildup to what the video was about and what game was being analyzed actually built up to a surprise. Reminded me of TV. 10/10 would watch early upload again.
Dude I traveled trough time. I watched this yesterday
I'm actually getting back into this game, and you're one of the reasons. Thanks man :D
You put more and more effort into your videos and it shows so much. Brilliant work!
Watching this reminded me of why I wanted to play through SS a second time: The dungeons. Unfortunately, I gave up after the first one because the junk in between (and at the start) is just so, incredibly tedious.
Can't wait for the next vid!
Edit: Also, it makes me wonder how much more enjoyable SS would be if you just started ripping things out like Fi or the stone tablets in the cistern dungeon. No extra design work, just straight-up deleting the painful hand-holding. All of those gripes, which seem entirely independent from the game, add up to a legitimate souring of our memories as a whole.
inb4 "Am I the oooooonly one who likes Skyward Sword?!?!?!"
90% of the comment section
Those comments are worthless garbage. Yes, you are not the only ones who liked Skyward Sword, it sold millions and was critically acclaimed for a reason.
lol i.imgur.com/XUcbJ1U.png
Supertron NO!
Lol.
I wonder if there are non-Zelda games which have good "Zelda dungeons", based on characteristics Mark has identified.
I wonder this too - suggestions appreciated! There are a good few games that are massive Zelda dungeons like Resi 1 and Metroid and Castlevania games - but can't think of much with these more compact levels. Still need to try Okami...
Have you ever thought about the Darksiders games? The first game has similar dungeons as LoZ as well as having micro-dungeons. Just an idea for once every Zelda game is done on Boss Keys.
Definitely try Okami! The dungeons are slightly different than Zelda ones, but it's a great game overall
Darksiders was pretty darn similar to the zelda format so that would be a good place to start i guess..
If you try Okami, I would suggest teh wii version which is the definitive version BUT you need to understand one quirk they made with the brush mechanics, the tilt of the wiimote don't translate correctly, ie if you held teh wimote on the side and do a horizontal movement, it will come out vertical, since natural motion have a lot of twist it won't register basic motion like straightline that are the first move you learn... you have to hold teh remote like a *paintbrush* assuming you know how to do it properly ... but once you figures it out, it quickly become the superior control and truly feel like you are reaching inside the game. Also the game is long like 3 zelda duck tapes together, literrally, there is clear break that make it seems like it's different arc altogether, which prime you for more when the final happen :(
I really appreciate how well made and edited these videos are, keep up the great work!
Dude I was SOOOOO ANGRY when I read that stone slab. I felt super smart for understanding what I need to do! And then the game said: "Hey, I know you're stupid and this puzz;le is too hard for you. So here is LITERALLY THE ANSWER."
That's just stupid. You got the answer yourself; the message wasn't intended for you. Read it, accept that literal babies play this game and need to know that, and get on with the game.
That's very similar to how I felt. Up to that point I hadn't found the dungeon puzzles all that challenging, so my initial reaction was "Good, finally the game is expecting me to figure out something that's actually tricky." And then I read the stone plate, and realized "Oh, I guess the game doesn't expect me to figure it out after all."
AdvancePlays, when I was a kid the games I played _never_ treated me like I couldn't put two and two together. If I was struggling with a puzzle or level, you know what I did? I tried and tried and tried again. You know, the thing they teach you to do in frickin' kindergarten. I could understand putting in these insta-win features in games to help people with physical or mental disabilities, but unfortunately they also feed in to this horrible trend of instant gratification that kids and now even adults just can't live without. So, no, knowing that kids will be playing this game is *not* a good excuse for this.
When I was a kid, the games I played artificially increased their difficulty with unreasonable and outdated techniques. I love Zelda games, I have 100%d them all, but Zelda 1 is only difficult due to no in-game navigation and Zelda 2 is only difficult due to enemy AI reading player input. Games weren't difficult out of respect for the players skill, they were difficult because they didn't care if you progressed or not; they had your money and after the crash competition was so low they knew you'd buy again. Not so today.
Is that stone tablet that obvious? because I feel people don't have to read it. In fact I don't remember reading it.
Was patiently waiting for the Skyward sword edition, thanks for delivering Mark!
Skyward sword is really such a mixed bag. On my initial play I completely loved the dungeons, the orchestral score, and the characters. But I tried to replay it and couldn't push through the utterly absurd amount of hand holding. The remake for switch was a big improvement and allowed me to enjoy it again!
Mark, Your Boss keys series has to be my favorite series on UA-cam. analytical breakdown of LoZ. Two of my most enjoyed things in life. Keep on, keep on.
To be fair skyward sword's art, music and story were all amazing as well
Recently, i have been finding UA-cam content boring and repetitive, however, when ever i see mark brown realse a video, i get excited, because of a number of reason, Its well organised, the editing is great, its on a subject i enjoy learning about, and the quality is sky high, GJ mark, keep making great videos.
I definitely disagree with your negative points on the game, but I'm glad we can agree that the dungeons are some of the best in the series.
Superbly done! Been anxiously awaiting this video for a while. Bravo!
Everyone speaks of how linear this was. I loved it; maybe I'm simple, but I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to get to the island with that seed you had to take into the past. Using spatial recognition and links max inertia dragging through quicksand, I thought for at least 2 days 'there's no way they just want me to run to that island....oh wait'. I loved it.
I really like, that you made the distinction this time between Puzzles in each Room and the Macro Puzzle to navigate the dungeon. I felt, that this clear distinction was missing in your previews Boss Key episodes. Good work!
I dont understand how you can dislike this game. The dungeons were incredible as you pointed out and even the paths to the dungeons were designed so well that they felt like their own outside dungeons. Was it a bit repetitive? Sure but skyward sword did what no other zelda did which is to make every area full of content and meaningful. TP had a large empty (beautiful though) Hyrule Field and BOYW had this incredible open world but no other Zelda game took advantage of a designed space and packed it as much as Skyward Sword. Plus storywise and cut scene wise it was fantastic (botw was missing im this).
Repetitive as all hell, going back tp previous areas for no reason sucks. The worst overworld in any mainline Zelda. Fi sucks. So linear, it's insane. It was basically just corridors And even though some of the dungeons are fantastic, the rest are not, so even the dungeons are 50/50.
@@Al-ji4gd No, it isn't going back to the main areas for no reason. The issue is that the formula was a bit unvaried in the sense that it was basically forest, fire, sand all over 3 times instead of having 4 regions and maybe you revisit 3 of them twice and only one twice.
Or maybe in a different order. However, the fact that the world itself was almost like a puzzle and that everytime you came back, you had to view things under another perspective was amazing. Nothing wrong with linear as linear can create extremely focused and powerful experiences.
Most of GOW and GOW Ragnarok is linear with the ability to travel back or visit old areas in new ways (admittedly there is much more than in SS) and that linear style crafted some of the best video game experiences....ever.
@@ultime321 Well, you back to the same areas and those areas weren't that good, anyway. Why are we going back to Skyview, the worst dungeon in the entire game?
There is an issue with linear when the thing that was there wasn't great to begin with. Sky loft was tedious, as well.
I don't really like the new GOW games, either.
@@Al-ji4gd I don't see the problem with going back to the same areas when there's new content every time you return though? Its not like the game is making you do things twice over (except for the skyview temple bs and the three imprisoned fights)
@@Thierce It's not like this ''new content'' is interesting in any way whatsoever. The skyview temple and imprisoned stuff is already bad enough.
Do a one off Boss Keys about the dungeons in Silent Hill 2 (secretly a Zelda game). It's one of the only games I can think of with a similar, holistic approach to dungeon design..
Keep it up Mark, you're the best thing on YT.
Whoa... who did the 3D model at 3:50? That looks really slick, and it's animated?!? You didn't do that yourself, did you?
I have a 3D guy. I do the design and texturing, he does modelling.
I absolutely LOVE the first 45 seconds of this episode. I would love to see how you put all of that together!
Sandship is possibly my favorite dungeon in the entire series
Mark I'd like to say watching your videos is helping me design a puzzle dungeon for d&d right now. I was trying to make the whole dungeon a "puzzle box", but after watching some videos, I'm also trying to incorporate some navigation like a "lock and key" dungeon.
Hmm, I don't think I've ever heard you flat out say you didn't like a Zelda game, even though you recognize the faults. So it's kind of surprising that you don't like Skyward Sword, then spend 15 minutes praising the dungeons which are arguably the meat and potatoes of every Zelda game.
Also, I think you should have mentioned the overworld in this game since each outside area is like a dungeon itself.
Yes, Skyward Sword is linear and repetitive and is riddled with faults, but it's filled to the brim with puzzles and has a lot to do in a limited space.
Dungeons are just one part of a Zelda game. I love Wind Waker, even if I don't really dig the dungeons. (Also some of the crappy stuff from SS does infect the dungeons, like Fi, motion controlled stuff, and general easiness).
To each their own. I always found the overworlds in previous Zelda games to be kinda empty and exploring them wasn't particularly rewarding, so the dungeons and puzzles are what I most looked forward to. And in Skyward Sword, everything from the dungeons, to the overworld, to even a simple enemy encounter is a puzzle. I do see why this game is so polarizing and I think most criticisms are valid, but I'll take Skyward Sword's linear, puzzle-filled outside areas to something like Wind Waker's vast, empty seas where hardly anything happens.
Thanks for responding. Cheers.
@@GMTK can we all agree that botw sucks ?
@@GMTK Fi is not nearly as insufferable as Midna, unless you're a kid who finds Midna's "edginess" to be "dope, y'all". The motion controls are fine, as long as you grew a brain large enough to develop the motor skills necessary to handle them. Wind Waker and Twilight Princess are both substantially easier than Skyward Sword.
@@kaliwatson3948 botw is one of the most respected and well liked Zelda games released in over a decade, good luck with that buddy
I'm glad you are addressing the change to rooms-as-puzzles instead of dungeons-as-puzzles. I showed these to a friend, and he completely disagreed with your videos. I realized he preferred the puzzle rooms and was not grasping that you saw this as a departure from classic Zelda and as a step down. So I'm glad you addressed that for him. :)
im just really impressed with the statue graphic
Just beat this game again 2 days ago, I heartily agree. This video made me appreciate skyward sword's dungeons way more.
4:18
I laughed so hard
Your videos really are the best
I think you're on to something with this focus on navigation and awareness of the whole dungeon! Thanks for being willing to redefine your terms and change your thinking!
Skyward sword is my favorite Zelda game thanks to its great dungeons and story/characters. I understand it is probably not the best Zelda game, but it is still my favorite.
Man, your videos are obviously fantastic. Just need to tell you how good your editing is. A lot of gaming channels lack in that department.
Like that backflip cut at 13:54, fucking brilliant! All these other youtubers riddled with jump cuts and audio issues, here you are with your match cuts and animated graphics. KEEP IT UP
Holy! Even made an ending joke with keying! loving it
Thanks A LOT for the spoiler alert!!
Best series on UA-cam. Great job.
7:56 I was actually stuck at this point in skyward sword HD because fi doesn’t outright tell you the solution, part of me thought that you should be able to do that but when I looked through the gratings, I just saw the sky and thought it wasn’t anything important. Then I backtracked to the top deck where I saw a grated hole and thought maybe I could destroy it with a bomb, go back into the room and then use the beetle to hit the stone. Retrospectively, I should’ve known it was simple. And If Fi had shown up in the switch port then I’d have been like sure that was obvious.
Same thing happened to me.
From what I remember her icon does flash and you can hear her chime but you can choose not to call on her
This was a great analysis on the design philosophy of each dungeon. I love these types of videos it really outlines what the developers intended and how the dungeons can be perceived beyond their face value.
I've come to the conclusion that Skyward Sword is mostly amazing, but the pacing is atrocious.
Whenever I look back, my memory is unusually forgiving of it because I don't remember the order of events quite as vividly as the events themselves.
The dungeons themselves are amazing, but the placement of those dungeons within the game and the pacing at which you access them can tarnish the whole experience, until over time my memory of the pacing gets hazy and forgotten, but my memory of enjoying the dungeons remains to the point where I sometimes start to wonder if it might actually be my favourite zelda game.
Side notes:
I appreciated the way almost every enemy had to be killed in a unique way.
I loved the motion controls and found them more intuitive than any other game.
I actually really liked Fi.
purrrfect. Just came home with litres of ice tea, snacks and a döner. And now another of your videos! Great start for the evening!
"Skyview Temple is the only dungeon in zelda history where you need to come back later in the game."
Temple of the ocean king and Tower of Spirits : :(
He even tHe said one of the only.
I may have already said this, but that Boss Keys title/logo design is just so damn cool...
Skyward Sword is a masterful game. It helps the player a lot (more than it needs at times), but this can be overlooked given that it could be avoided by a simple revamp on the hint system.
The dungeon design, soundtrack, plot, characters, enemy and character design, gameplay are the best to ever come to the franchise since Ocarina of Time.
It gets undeserved hate on the internet, but hopefully things change and people see how masterful and ahead of its time this game is.
Remember playing skyward sword when I was little a long time ago and I recently found your stuff on it, watching it made me realize I was really stupid
Mark: Skyward Sword
Internet: * unintelligible sounds *
woah dude, the visuals in this video are top notch
Whenever Link hits the timeshift stone I can hear the sound in my head
Fantastic video as always. But, I just wanted to comment to thank you particularly for that Breath of the Wild spoiler countdown. I've yet to play it and have avoided all trailers and gameplay videos so far. You are a legend. Thank you.
Playing the HD version blew me away with how good SS is if you approach it as a "Zelda Galaxy" kind of game: a level-based Zelda. BotW is much more what I want from Zelda, but for what it is SS is terrific. That said, I'm benefiting greatly from all the fast-forwarding and cutscene skipping that the remaster allows =P .
That’s a good way to look at it. I’m glad the HD version added some nice QoL features
Your insight into these games is really neat. I enjoy listening to these dungeons be broken down into chunks.
I'm surprised that you didn't mention SS utilizing nearly every single tool item successively in each dungeon. I personally really enjoyed that aspect of SS, even if some of the dungeons seemed pretty linear.
why am I not shocked a video praising SS just had to start with "everything else about the game is bad"
Because the Zelda cycle hasn't yet completely transitioned. Within a few weeks, the general narrative will be about how Breath of the Wild (the now latest Zelda game) is overrated and how Skyward Sword (the previously latest, and equally bashed, Zelda game) is now "the last, real Zelda game".......
MLennholm I was ahead of the curve on that one. I said it day one.
@@MLennholm well that didn't happen.
@@MasterLINK6571 yeah everyone still loves botw and hates ss 😂
@@MLennholm
This comment didn't age well LMAO.
These Boss Keys videos really feel like reviews, and I love it!
Skyward Sword is my favourite 3D zelda, and it feels good hearing it be praised for its dungeons for once.
Dude, you really got into this dungeon analysis series. As we say in Brazil: TU É PIKA!
thanks for putting the warning on the BOTW dungeon !! god you're perfect. i ... love you
Four years later and all of a sudden this video is relevant again
Twilight Princess’ dungeons were fantastic
I've binged through all your videos, amazing work keep it up man
Based on this series, I have divided up the Zelda games you have covered by their dungeon design into 5 groups:
A Link To The Past
Ocarina of Time
Link's Awakening
Oracle of Ages
Oracle of Seasons
Majora's Mask
Skyward Sword
Wind Waker
Phantom Hourglass
Spirit Tracks
Minish Cap
Twilight Princess
Group 1: explorative but somewhat linear
Group 2: very explorative
Group 3: Unique and Creative Architectural puzzles
Group 4: Straight forward; linear, but includes puzzle motifs
Group 5: linear, yet more dynamic
ALttP's level design is less linear than OoT's. the only follow the path dungeons that are purely linear are the Tower of Hera and Hyrule Castle Tower. the Eastern Temple is more like a TP dungeon where it is linear, but has some optional rooms.
The Ice Temple is linear at first but becomes non-linear and the Water Shrine has a non-linear section in the second half. Skull Woods, Misery Mire, and the Temple of Darkness are non-linear, Thieve's Hideout requires using all the keys, but has some non-linearity, the Desert Temple is very open in the first half, and linear in the second half, and Turtle Rock is also some where in between. Ganon's Tower has several optional rooms, but the second half is linear. Hyrule Castle has some optional rooms, and the Sewers is linear. overall, ALttP is very flexible, and does retain a lot of its explorative design. OoT is more linear in its dungeon design, but still explorative.
so overall, ALttP should be in between the two groups.
Hi Mark! I discovered your channel short ago. I find it very interesting because I had unconsciously forgotten the quality of spacial dungeons that ocarinna and majora had. However, i feel there was a game launched slightly before them that gives even a better feeling of spacial puzzle: Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine. I know the game is as old as Ocarina and not as famous but i think it well deserves analysis because the some levels had to be solved as a hole, like Shambala Sanctuary. I really look forward to your next videos.
I have played that “i remember the cheat that lets you play as guybrush threepwood”! I’ll have to check it out again.
Sometimes I feel like one of the only people who loves Skyward Sword. Everything from the puzzles to the combat was incredibly fun for me. The motion controls are actually one of my favorite game mechanics of all time, and I don't think I'll ever understand why people hate it so much.
People can be too impatient sometimes, and motion controls on Skyward Sword revolves around swinging your sword wisely.
so when looking back at the dungeons, they really feel like they were evolving into a gauntlet of shrines while the sand ship and sky keep were proto divine beasts (which ironically were better designed).
I disagree with the notion that "the technology isn't there" and assert that the controls "function" fine (in well-lit rooms or something), but are implemented counter-intuitively. Most players try to reposition the sword quickly, but you're actually expected to orbit the sword point around the enemy.
And you're supposed to learn that, because *Ghirahim is an extension of the eye puzzle* . This is cool, but the problem is, *the trailer spoiled the eye puzzle* , and even if you *misunderstood how Ghirahim's blocking works* he is beatable via luck. This caused me to *misunderstand combat for the entire game* .
Even so, it's still sub-par to basic button mashing. It adds nothing to the game for me. All it does it make the game feel longer and feel like a chore instead of a game.
@Bose-Einstein It depends on personal opinion. While for me it helped the swordfighting fantasy (which Twilight Princess's wiimote implementation failed to do), I agree that at the end of the day the series isn't *really* about combat, so complicating it this much works against it.
Plus, none of it matters, not even cool tricks you can do with items, because you can just motion-mash through even electric Bokoblins anyway, which anyone will start doing after getting bored, which will probably happen, because the structure of the game (not the moment-to-moment gameplay) makes Skyward Sword overstay its welcome.
+Bose-Einstein is it though? I prefer the precise feeling of Skyward Sword's combat, to the braindead button mashing of BotW. It's much more satisfying to work your way around the enemy's defense and deal the ending blow, compared to spamming B until the lifebar of an enemy depletes.
+Lord Raven
Like DoubleATam said, it's personal opinion. This is all a matter of person preference and I just hate it.
In general I loved the swordplay in SS. There were definitely moments of frustration (I despised those ancient bokoblin-type enemies with the shock batons) but I thought it was pretty neat overall. What did take a major hit coming from TP was the aiming accuracy. Nintendo created fantastic aiming controls for TP using the Sensor Bar that allowed the player to aim and shoot much quicker and more accurately than ever before. Making the jump to using Wii MotionPlus for aiming was just soooooo stupid.
That part with the little boat in the sand ship took me forever. I felt dumb that it took me so long, but at the same time it felt really good when I figured it out