Thanks Steve for putting out awesome videos not many engin builders will go in depth to show how to do things and even when you have problems you still show the world it goes to show what a great and honest engin builder u are 🇺🇸🇺🇸
If ever there was a race car engine candidate for a Switchblade turbo charger upgrade… here it is. Steve I doubt you’ll even read this but if you do please look up Blaylock turbo chargers in Baxter Springs Ks. My friend Jim Blaylock patented a turbo charger modification for just this sort of issue. And they are making great strides in this design. It uses a simple mechanical mechanism fed off of boost that changes the internal volume inside the turbo charger turbine housing to act like a smaller turbo charger at lower RPM to spool quickly & then as boost increases, it opens up to flow more.
It doesnt make turbo smaller, it just makes turbine housing more restrictive. I dont know how something can be patented if it was found 40 years ago by someone else, and forgotten because it didnt work.
Yeah, I was about to say, that's just a VGT. Your friend may have patented a better way to achieve that result, but the idea isn't anything new. And as far as I know, with a VGT you don't necessary need a dump valve as you can control the boost pressure by changing the position of the vanes.
I like the rag over the wastegate outlet. Reminds me of when I was walking thru the MAZDA engine plant in Hiroshima Japan. This was in the mid-1980s. There were little kids’ toy pinwheels mounted on the backs of the computer controllers that ran the machining line. I asked the Mazda engineer I was working with what was up with the pinwheels. He said they were mounted behind the computer cooling fans. If the pinwheel was spinning the fan was working. If not, a passing employee would notify the millwrights that a repair team was needed. At Ford’s (& probably all other American engine plants) plants there was an electronic monitor on each machine. Cost comparison: 5 cents for.the pinwheel vs probably $50 for the electronic babysitter. Good on ya, Steve!
That’s what 2 step is for or if rolling anti lag. It’s 2024 only places you see turbo lag is in diesel. Or someone who doesn’t know how to tune. But he is using a engine dyno you don’t use either of those so yes it take a second to build and literally just a second it’s building pretty fast
Yet ANOTHER keyboard warrior. Jealousy is a terrible thing. I don't care what he does as long as it entertains me. (or you) Let that sink in. Cleetus did. All the way to the bank.
Man I love these videos. As someone with a love of big horsepower, but neither the space nor the money to build something myself, SME is like hanging out in your buddy's garage while he works. Brilliant.
@@ruckus__no need to do a compound system with gas engines. You can’t put the boost to a gas engine that you can to a diesel,. Yiu can only add so much boost to a sparked fired engine before you have detonations issues that start melting things or breaking rods, you don’t detonation issues with diesel because in stead of spark you spraying the fuel in to get the ignition.
blowers break alot, shake cars apart, and make a ton of low rpm power that can blow the tires off turbos make those problems go away but are a tuning nightmare lol
Hello Mr M I am 56 years old I been a auto tech now for 35 years .I love your channel. I have a idea for a cylinder head that will run with no valve springs.unlimited rpm and just the average guy can buy the heads at Walmart for 500.00 a set.but I need a guy like u to help us make a few million in the process
@@JimmyCasket02 You dont buy your heads at walmart already? I replace mine at every oil change just to be safe and the good ole walmart heads haven't let me down yet.
The solenoid valve concept isn't new at all. There's a reason why it's not implemented. Koenigsegg has been prototyping these for several years. This screams scam, btw.
Since before WWII it has been known that turbochargers are able to recover waste energy from the exhaust stream, and so can somewhat more efficiently drive a turbocharger. Certainly a supercharger can have better throttle response, but for a given amount of power they require a more robust bottom end since the power to drive one comes directly as a load on the crank. Tradeoffs.
Turbo too big is a miserable thing to live with....but in a drag car they're using/abusing the torque converter to make one work. Cam selection would also be very different as back pressure on the turbo needs to be taken into account. If you have the same back-pressure as boost then the overlap doesn't matter, but when exhaust pressure is more than boost....overlap tends to blow exhaust into the chamber. On the street...a much smaller turbo would work a lot better.
Pete Harrell (sp?) had a nice video that talked about the additional difficulties in using a turbo in a drag car over a supercharger. There were some advantages with the supercharger, as boost is purely a function of RPM for most. Set the launch RPM, done.
I think that Professor Steve Morris will figure all this out eventually because he has to know. Thanks for taking us along on your journey. That Dyno and software is hiding the "rest of the story".
Engine air temperature is critical to making power. Gale Banks talks about it a lot with his boosted applications. I did not see air temps as part of the data set, so it might be smart to monitor the charge air temp for a clearer picture of what is happening.
Gale banks is talking about diesel, pro mod engines runs on alcohol that's the ticket for not running an intercooler the air charge will be cooled be the fuel nothing else is needed
Gale even talks about the affects of alcohol cooling when he takes a try at building a proper diesel for monster trucks, he even tried to run massive alcohol through his Dmax. I think Steve has even tried charge cooling on Methanol and it didn't help much. Iy comes down to more parts= more weight on the car, and more complex to he already crammed engine compartments.
You might find this info interesting ! It's called Rocket turbo anti lag ,there's a patent on it , it keeps your turbo spooled at low engine speeds , was used on Subaru rallye cars years ago , could possibly use on race cars
At the 56 minute mark you mulling over egate. If you want to improve boost response and get turbo spinning quickly, you need to cut the flow of air going into turbo inlet. Even bleeding off boost won't help. A vacuum cleaner screams when you block it. The noise you hear is the extra rpm it's doing because it's not able to grab air and move it. The turbo is the same. As it moves air it needs input from exhaust wheel to drive it. Air has mass and needs energy to move it. Kill the clean air getting to it, and it can't absorb energy by moving that air. It can, therefore, speed up more for the same exhaust flowing thru engine. Once you have it to the desired turbo rpm then let it eat air. It's counterintuitive.
That massive turbo needs a jet/rocket anti lag system. That way you can control the amount of boost you want off the line then depending on how much fuel you put into the anti lag you can control the rate that the boost climbs. I am really surprised more teams haven't implemented such systems. Unless the class has outlawed it.
The blade design on the supercharger is critical to move air Dependent on the design parameters you design the turbine blades to move "x" volume of air at "y" rpm under "z" ambient pressure Taking rpm "y" *1,6 does not necessarily equate to volume "x" *1,6 at same ambient, it may only be "x"*1,35 etc So the sweet spot has a +- percentage tolerance of say "y" +10% overdriven or "y" -5% and that would be your efficiency range. By simply speeding up your blower does not necessarily equate a 1:1 correlation in speed increase and boost/volume efficiency. You may be getting a 1:0,8 ratio and generate a lot more heat doing it
The reason the turbo spools suddenly is because of the air pressure in the hot side (exhaust) not being high enough to force itself through the blades of the turbo. This results in little to no flow through the hot side (as pressure increases heat also builds more quickly) until enough pressure is achieved to begin flowing air through the hot side instead of building up pressure against it. Ways I can think of to mitigate this is having smaller runners to the hot side (so less volume of air is required to build enough pressure), making sure the turbo shaft spins as freely as possible, different turbo blade geometry, waste gate/bypass/dump/other valves on both sides of turbo, anti-lag systems, electric motors spinning the turbo (as demonstrated by one of the latest Porsche engines), etc. all of which may compromise certain areas of performance. ...But that's all just to say air bouncing off a fan doesn't spin it until that air begins to flow through the fan, if that makes sense, that's why the turbo lags the way it does. It's all about optimizing the turbo speed to hot side pressure ratio to minimize lag.
I remember I think it was Stavtech on here and IG shared some rally tech where they take an additional throttle body and mount it in front of the turbo to create a vacuum within the compressor. Same concept of the wastegate just further pressure reduction into vacuum. Like how a vacuum cleaner speeds up when you block the inlet.
Ive seen guys send fuel and set spark on a couple cylinders to fire in the exhaust to spool the turbo up higher at lower rpm. I believe and have seen this hurt turbos and shorten lifespan and Gotta be good at sequential fuel and spark control to make sure its not too big of a boom but it will spool quicker. Idk how well it would work on such a large turbo but higher rpm the more pressure overlap in the exhaust from standard booms and booms in the exhaust, take that as you will. Timing is fun. Basically antilag but for building boost not maintaining.
You should build a hybrid dyno that is a combo of the water brake and the hub dyno. Bolt the engine to a transmission/converter and then connect the transmssion to a chassis style brake. That would allow you to simulate car like loads without having to have the car there.
Prochargers are rampid in NoPrepKings due to the fact it is easier to tune and faster reaction that is right there with the Blower combos. Turbos are hard to tune but, once they are tuned they are hard to beat. Spell check in UA-cam not that great... I meant rampant... thanx for the spell check lol.
The turbo is loaded by the mass of air it has to move, not the pressure. By adding that blow-off valve, you are actually loading the turbo more by making it flow more air. Increasing the hot side air flow is what you should be focusing on to spool it faster. It looks like this turbo is just too big to operate on this engine below 6 or 7k rpm. You might want to look at the surge line of the turbo vs the actual air flow of the engine at lower rpm
Turbo or Blower, it all depends on the application, how the engine was made, what parts it has and everything that belongs to the tuning of the engines all counts some cases blower its better combo and some case turbo all depends what you gonna do with it are it straith line track car or driffter.
What if you just took the blower gears (procharger) out of the housing all together, removed the charge pipe & call that your street tune. Once at the track, replace the gears, boost pipe, flash race tune into it & call it good. Seems like a lot of work to convert from street to strip, but you already have to do that with lower ratio gears anyway. This would be a lot easier with a belt driven procharger. By removing all boost and going NA on the street, a much cheaper fuel could be used.
I want to say I saw the video on eagles new motor from cleetus and I think it’s awesome to see the difference in a monster street car motor such as the smx and the proline hemi for essentially a pro mod track car and how they differ I want to say props to you and the job that you do to make a motor so powerful for the street and the engineering behind it
would be worth while having a gearbox and a few converters (for diffrent applications) that way you could simulate a more real world situation to aid in developing diffrent strategies to overcome such issues as turbo cars not being able to build boost on the line (ive seen test sessions here in AUS were every car failed to build boost on the line). same with being able to control temp and humidity basically set your DA in the dyno rooms for the same application???
The difference between a great big turbo and a great big supercharger is that Superchargers are awesome, but turbos are a pain in the ass. Ditch the turbo and enjoy racing!
Big turbos always suck at lower rpms, they don't get enough gas velocity to work over a wide range...☹ Twins of a smaller size can help if sized correctly and with oem cars variable geometry makes huge differences to driveability, my 2.2 litre Ford diesel makes over 330 lbs/ft at 1500 rpm with minimal turbo lag, with a variable geometry turbo that has done 201K miles without any repairs required...
I'm pushing 60 years old and have been making my living as mechanic and shop owner since teenager. Been active drag racer and dabbled in other motor sports. I've been hard core old school and still competitive some what. You have really helped me learn and understand how it works and tune with more than my screw drivers, timing light, and reading plugs. Really enjoy your real deal the way it is. I've had some great combinations and way more not so great. Some I should have lit a stack of cash on fire to save time.
Lean of Peak EGT mixture - do any tuners switch to that when a fuel limitation is reached? It seems like that could be a safe strategy to avoid peak temperature and pressure scenarios which could damage parts.. That might be a better alternative than just running into the red when there’s a problem. It assumes that the mixture of individual combustion events could be controlled by injector duty cycle, which I think is true, but might need to be checked out. Controllers might need some control logic. A related approach would be for the controller to start cutting duty cycle on some cylinders while increasing it on other cylinders. The reduction on some cylinders would result in more fuel being available for other cylinders. Main point is that lean mixture may only be dangerous to components when it results in peak EGT. And EGT drops once the mixture is continued to be leaned. And, lean mixture doesn’t necessarily result in misfire within a safe range of mixtures - so long as the spark is hot and provides enough chamber coverage.
I always thought they had there pros and cons for each. Good information. Personally I have always been partial to roots blowers. I have friends that worked at Roots blowers in Indiana.
Steve, I think a bunch of people would appreciate a little explanation on the Devel Sixteen development. Have you signed an NDA? What happened to the cars progress, the company, the engine, etc. I believe a lot of people would like to know.
I mean the centrifugal supercharger is nearly identical in concept to a turbo. Not to get off track here, but interested in how a roots or screw would differ as well.
@@1clnsdime1I’ll pick a turbo all day any racing. It’s proven already. Roll racing which I do in my coyote I have twin 64s precisions makes about 1400 on highest map on e85. I like how nice and easy it is to turn up boost on turbos. A few buttons and I switch between maps. Also it’s my daily driver. Tuned by lund. Built motor from FFRE.
I'd like a little more explanation on the waste gate blow-off valve being so detrimental on centrifugal superchargers. Do you mean like active control or just having a boost leak. I've seen 2 different instances of people Taking a hole saw to a charge pipe to lower boost. I get it still takes 500 hp to drive but the impeller and gears should still be loaded.
The turbo motor spooling waste-gate worked just like a fighter jet engine! It bleeds air for acceleration. The only additional thing for jet engines is that it prevents engine compressor stalls.
So cool you can build these motors and hand it to someone .With the gear ratio, track is different but you got them in the ball park to make it work. Facts don't lie and you have no reason to change the facts. That would be like lieing to yourself You Sir have taken this ICE to it's max. Much Respect. Street engines should not be able to do what you make them do.
In an earlier video, you made the point that when you run a blower/turbo straight into the atmosphere that is actually has to work harder since there is a constant 14.7psi to push against as opposed to the vacuum created by the descending pistons. I don't know of that's true or not, but it stuck me at the time as very interesting.
I typed this before you talked about doing it with the blower. If the drive pressure on the blower goes up, why wouldn't the turbo do the same thing? Lots of things going on there. Interesting to think about
On your big single charger setup. Can you get your dyno to pull the motor from top to down. Higher rpms will get the turbo spinning faster and light easier and more consistent.
It's great that you tell us EXACTLY what set-ups you're using on each different engine combo. Now my boy's and I will have to subscribe to Kyle's channel 😅😂
I had a moment of "damn bro don't tell me that..." then I checked and realized I am 51mins in already without noticing! Stoked to have half an hour left.
I really hope I get to meet you someday and shake your hand. You are asking the questions and experimenting all the things I think about. I’ve never heard anyone try to explain freewheeling a supercharger is bad. The stacking of atmospheric pressure in front of the blower is the cushion that prevents damage. Not a lot of people know this. But they know you need to have a harmonic balancer on the crank!
Aside form the parasitic loss, here's also heat. And at some point with the impellor speed, it will also start to stall thus run out of air like the turbo compressor does.
Make an input on a table that will pull timing starting at 5000 rpm and go to -20 by 5200 rpm, this will act like a rev limiter but be butter smooth and it will spool the turbo with no engine load, let it go once you hit the boost you want
If you can use the dyno to hold the engine at launch rpm with the throttle wide open while pulling timing to build boost then start the pull maybe it would work?edit: nevermind i just heard the explanation lol
Procharger>Turbo. Yes, I know....max peak HP with a turbo before you get your panties in a crunch. Regardless, as Steve mentioned, consistancy, reliability, tunability, and many other reasons why Prochargers are better to work with when you are ACTUALLY racing at the track.
Can you write a dyno loading scaling facor for the 1st few seconds or under a given rpm? Instead of 1:1 input to output. Use a subprogram to produce 3:1 for the first 2 or 3 seconds of the pull to get more initial turbine shaft speed I understand you need one to one for accurate numbers from the dyno. But you also need exaggerated load to make the turbo spool.
Does a motor that is making more power, spin the turbo faster? I ask because when the charge pipe waste gate was open and the turbo didn't respond very well in regards to the turbo spinning faster, my thought was that the feedback loop that the turbo needs to spool itself, was "broken". If the turbo can't increase charge pipe pressure, then it can't give the motor the horsepower it needs to spin the turbo faster. No boost = no spool. Opening the charge pipe waste gate just made it worse in theory. I can see how there would be lots of variables with engine size, turbo size etc. It just seems like in this case, the turbo might spool better when giving it every opportunity to give the motor more power. Even if only a few psi.
Steve did you think of using the type of boost control system that Mark Micki runs? No waste gates and boost is controlled by 2 blow off valves in the intake tube.
I have a 5th Gen Camaro SS. I definitely debate if I should go ProCharger or a turbo setup. Still want to drive it on the street and highways. Also want to do some long distance trips too
Where's Jackstand & his bottle of spoolmaster 9000 when you need him 😂
@@extcreat I wasn't invited
Sick video thanks for the shoutout dad 💪🤘
Love what you and your family do! I hope everyone is well!
You Guy’s…
Honestly….
Congratulations…to all at SM’s
Subbed!!!
Couldn’t find your channel by Kyle morris. It led me to a golfer. Had to do the @ search.. subscribed ❤
@@khawli6032 link in description.
The fact that you have the facilities to film that intro is pretty frikin' cool.
He's got the machinery to whittle an SMX out of a raw chunk of metal, and it's the engine dyno that impresses you?😂
@thelonewrangler1008 To be fair, theres actually 2 dynos 😂
Thanks Steve for putting out awesome videos not many engin builders will go in depth to show how to do things and even when you have problems you still show the world it goes to show what a great and honest engin builder u are 🇺🇸🇺🇸
The SMX showdown/ blower vs turbo, I personally like blowers! You are the man Steve!
I bet you do like blowers 😝
If ever there was a race car engine candidate for a Switchblade turbo charger upgrade… here it is. Steve I doubt you’ll even read this but if you do please look up Blaylock turbo chargers in Baxter Springs Ks. My friend Jim Blaylock patented a turbo charger modification for just this sort of issue. And they are making great strides in this design. It uses a simple mechanical mechanism fed off of boost that changes the internal volume inside the turbo charger turbine housing to act like a smaller turbo charger at lower RPM to spool quickly & then as boost increases, it opens up to flow more.
Sounds like a variable vein turbo like some of the new cars come with
@@SpudstrodamusVGT turbos are very old technology
It doesnt make turbo smaller, it just makes turbine housing more restrictive. I dont know how something can be patented if it was found 40 years ago by someone else, and forgotten because it didnt work.
Yeah, I was about to say, that's just a VGT. Your friend may have patented a better way to achieve that result, but the idea isn't anything new. And as far as I know, with a VGT you don't necessary need a dump valve as you can control the boost pressure by changing the position of the vanes.
@@JuniorJunison They have a small UA-cam channel but most vids are at least a couple years old
I like the rag over the wastegate outlet. Reminds me of when I was walking thru the MAZDA engine plant in Hiroshima Japan. This was in the mid-1980s. There were little kids’ toy pinwheels mounted on the backs of the computer controllers that ran the machining line. I asked the Mazda engineer I was working with what was up with the pinwheels. He said they were mounted behind the computer cooling fans. If the pinwheel was spinning the fan was working. If not, a passing employee would notify the millwrights that a repair team was needed.
At Ford’s (& probably all other American engine plants) plants there was an electronic monitor on each machine. Cost comparison: 5 cents for.the pinwheel vs probably $50 for the electronic babysitter.
Good on ya, Steve!
The 5 cents doesn't account for labor costs involved in monitoring the pin wheel
18:25 It's the Dewey decibel system!
Compound turbo! That turbo is so big that you've introduced turbo lag on an SMX. Which is not something I ever thought I'd say or thing was possible.
Needs some spool aid.
Wish I thought of this, well played sir.
That’s what 2 step is for or if rolling anti lag. It’s 2024 only places you see turbo lag is in diesel. Or someone who doesn’t know how to tune. But he is using a engine dyno you don’t use either of those so yes it take a second to build and literally just a second it’s building pretty fast
Use nitrous to overcome turbo lag.
i got news for ya, doesnt matter how big of rod you can stick in an engine, mcfarland tuning and crew will destroy it.
You write that like he cares. He makes money on people pushing these engines. That big block didn't owe anyone anything when it let go the first time.
Give cleet a wartsila diesel rod😂
@@--_DJ_--you and I both wrote comments like anybody cares. That's the way she goes bud.
Yet ANOTHER keyboard warrior. Jealousy is a terrible thing.
I don't care what he does as long as it entertains me. (or you) Let that sink in. Cleetus did. All the way to the bank.
@@realblakrawb what?
Man I love these videos. As someone with a love of big horsepower, but neither the space nor the money to build something myself, SME is like hanging out in your buddy's garage while he works. Brilliant.
Love it! Dewey just chillin on the couch!!! What a dog!
Supercharger= near instant power.
Turbo= Turbo lag, but a little more potential.
Also power requirements to drive a super charger vs exhaust gas propulsion, not a big deal when you have thousands of hp so much😂
Would be cool to see some sort of compound setup feeding into the procharger
And turbos are a lot more complicated to power manage as was clearly demonstrated in the video. And this is with the engine on a dyno vs in a car.
@@ruckus__no need to do a compound system with gas engines. You can’t put the boost to a gas engine that you can to a diesel,. Yiu can only add so much boost to a sparked fired engine before you have detonations issues that start melting things or breaking rods, you don’t detonation issues with diesel because in stead of spark you spraying the fuel in to get the ignition.
Turbo recovers energy, supercharger uses it. I still like blower characteristics for the instant torque off idle for most things.
Can Steve Morris build a 2 step dynoemulator?
Keep sending it, Steve. Your the best.
You can always tell when Steve is very deep in thought because he only says half sentences 😂
Don't toss that charge pipe, "give" it to me with your and Kyle's autographs so I can put it in my garage. My friends will be blown away!
So what did we all learn here today? Blowers=Cheat code Turbo=Incremental complexity
blowers break alot, shake cars apart, and make a ton of low rpm power that can blow the tires off
turbos make those problems go away but are a tuning nightmare lol
Blowers = parasitic loss (whether crank-driven or belt)
Hello Mr M I am 56 years old I been a auto tech now for 35 years .I love your channel. I have a idea for a cylinder head that will run with no valve springs.unlimited rpm and just the average guy can buy the heads at Walmart for 500.00 a set.but I need a guy like u to help us make a few million in the process
What would persuade the average guy to buy said cylinder heads?
@@JimmyCasket02 You dont buy your heads at walmart already? I replace mine at every oil change just to be safe and the good ole walmart heads haven't let me down yet.
Proform and speed master sell a decent head for 500 on Amazon and ebay. Needs different springs though. Why would some buy your head?
The solenoid valve concept isn't new at all. There's a reason why it's not implemented. Koenigsegg has been prototyping these for several years. This screams scam, btw.
@@birddog61999I usually get my heads from ALDI they flow more cfm than the walmart ones
Since before WWII it has been known that turbochargers are able to recover waste energy from the exhaust stream, and so can somewhat more efficiently drive a turbocharger. Certainly a supercharger can have better throttle response, but for a given amount of power they require a more robust bottom end since the power to drive one comes directly as a load on the crank. Tradeoffs.
Turbo too big is a miserable thing to live with....but in a drag car they're using/abusing the torque converter to make one work. Cam selection would also be very different as back pressure on the turbo needs to be taken into account. If you have the same back-pressure as boost then the overlap doesn't matter, but when exhaust pressure is more than boost....overlap tends to blow exhaust into the chamber. On the street...a much smaller turbo would work a lot better.
@recoilrob324 that's why most go with two smaller turbos instead of one biggin.
Holey smokes, a smart youtube comment discussion on blowers and turbos. As far as my knowledge goes, no lies detected
Pete Harrell (sp?) had a nice video that talked about the additional difficulties in using a turbo in a drag car over a supercharger. There were some advantages with the supercharger, as boost is purely a function of RPM for most. Set the launch RPM, done.
Lmao
I'm a supercharger guy myself. I don't have one, but If I were to get back into racing, my ride would be supercharged for sure.
I think that Professor Steve Morris will figure all this out eventually because he has to know. Thanks for taking us along on your journey. That Dyno and software is hiding the "rest of the story".
RALLY STYLE ANTI-LAG SETUP ON A BIG v8 NEXT FROM STEVE MORRIS ENGINES!
Engine air temperature is critical to making power. Gale Banks talks about it a lot with his boosted applications. I did not see air temps as part of the data set, so it might be smart to monitor the charge air temp for a clearer picture of what is happening.
Gale banks is talking about diesel, pro mod engines runs on alcohol that's the ticket for not running an intercooler the air charge will be cooled be the fuel nothing else is needed
Gale even talks about the affects of alcohol cooling when he takes a try at building a proper diesel for monster trucks, he even tried to run massive alcohol through his Dmax. I think Steve has even tried charge cooling on Methanol and it didn't help much. Iy comes down to more parts= more weight on the car, and more complex to he already crammed engine compartments.
You might find this info interesting ! It's called Rocket turbo anti lag ,there's a patent on it , it keeps your turbo spooled at low engine speeds , was used on Subaru rallye cars years ago , could possibly use on race cars
Is this when you retard the timing so much that it blows up in the exhaust (or while exhaust valves are already open)?
Charge Air Control
Wow, that is so much technical stuff that I have a headache! That was a lot of knowledge Steve. Thanks.
At the 56 minute mark you mulling over egate. If you want to improve boost response and get turbo spinning quickly, you need to cut the flow of air going into turbo inlet. Even bleeding off boost won't help. A vacuum cleaner screams when you block it. The noise you hear is the extra rpm it's doing because it's not able to grab air and move it. The turbo is the same. As it moves air it needs input from exhaust wheel to drive it. Air has mass and needs energy to move it. Kill the clean air getting to it, and it can't absorb energy by moving that air. It can, therefore, speed up more for the same exhaust flowing thru engine. Once you have it to the desired turbo rpm then let it eat air. It's counterintuitive.
That massive turbo needs a jet/rocket anti lag system. That way you can control the amount of boost you want off the line then depending on how much fuel you put into the anti lag you can control the rate that the boost climbs. I am really surprised more teams haven't implemented such systems. Unless the class has outlawed it.
I enjoy when you are going through your brain to figure issues out. I always talk myself through things to figure them out.
The blade design on the supercharger is critical to move air
Dependent on the design parameters you design the turbine blades to move "x" volume of air at "y" rpm under "z" ambient pressure
Taking rpm "y" *1,6 does not necessarily equate to volume "x" *1,6 at same ambient, it may only be "x"*1,35 etc
So the sweet spot has a +- percentage tolerance of say "y" +10% overdriven or "y" -5% and that would be your efficiency range.
By simply speeding up your blower does not necessarily equate a 1:1 correlation in speed increase and boost/volume efficiency. You may be getting a 1:0,8 ratio and generate a lot more heat doing it
The reason the turbo spools suddenly is because of the air pressure in the hot side (exhaust) not being high enough to force itself through the blades of the turbo. This results in little to no flow through the hot side (as pressure increases heat also builds more quickly) until enough pressure is achieved to begin flowing air through the hot side instead of building up pressure against it. Ways I can think of to mitigate this is having smaller runners to the hot side (so less volume of air is required to build enough pressure), making sure the turbo shaft spins as freely as possible, different turbo blade geometry, waste gate/bypass/dump/other valves on both sides of turbo, anti-lag systems, electric motors spinning the turbo (as demonstrated by one of the latest Porsche engines), etc. all of which may compromise certain areas of performance. ...But that's all just to say air bouncing off a fan doesn't spin it until that air begins to flow through the fan, if that makes sense, that's why the turbo lags the way it does. It's all about optimizing the turbo speed to hot side pressure ratio to minimize lag.
Turbine is open, gases can flow easily through it without pressure. Compressor side is more important, if it is not on a map, it does nothing.
idea: quad charged setup with a crank mount procharger, twin turbos and a roots blower. it will last exactly 1 pass but hey it will be glorious
I remember I think it was Stavtech on here and IG shared some rally tech where they take an additional throttle body and mount it in front of the turbo to create a vacuum within the compressor. Same concept of the wastegate just further pressure reduction into vacuum. Like how a vacuum cleaner speeds up when you block the inlet.
Charge Air Control
Drag and drive car in England? We have 1 drag strip at Santa Pod. 🤣
I guess he’s going to drive it there and drive home?
Thank you for sharing your experiences and knowledge
Another SM video. Jus what I needed todays has been rough
Watching Steve build fun stuff puts my mind somewhere else ✓ I have a list of things dropped on me this week. "Yeah"
I wish I could see the reaction of Jean Pierre Kraemer @JP Performance GmbH Dortmund Germany at 8:54 when Steve talks about a "street car" engine 😂😂😂
Put the e-gate on the 2-step/trans-brake button, no drive pressure when you hold it and snaps shut for launch on release
Ive seen guys send fuel and set spark on a couple cylinders to fire in the exhaust to spool the turbo up higher at lower rpm. I believe and have seen this hurt turbos and shorten lifespan and Gotta be good at sequential fuel and spark control to make sure its not too big of a boom but it will spool quicker. Idk how well it would work on such a large turbo but higher rpm the more pressure overlap in the exhaust from standard booms and booms in the exhaust, take that as you will. Timing is fun. Basically antilag but for building boost not maintaining.
That’s why I love watching your videos over others, waaAAA! vs WWWaaaaaaaaa!!! Steve Morris shop talk-Friggin Cool!
You should build a hybrid dyno that is a combo of the water brake and the hub dyno. Bolt the engine to a transmission/converter and then connect the transmssion to a chassis style brake. That would allow you to simulate car like loads without having to have the car there.
Prochargers are rampid in NoPrepKings due to the fact it is easier to tune and faster reaction that is right there with the Blower combos. Turbos are hard to tune but, once they are tuned they are hard to beat.
Spell check in UA-cam not that great... I meant rampant... thanx for the spell check lol.
Rampant
That's gay as hell
@@fartzinacan- Rancid?
@@danmyers9372 great band, but no. Spelling correction for "rampid" in the original post.
Turbos arent even a factor in NPK way to unstable to tune. Procharger for the win
Love the constant sound of $$$ Money in the background of these videos :)
That turbo motor that you're doing is doing the same thing My LS motor did on our airboat no power no power all the sudden white ass open!
144mm turbo? Almost a pratt and whitney turbine now
You should use a "Spool Valve" from "Boost on Tap" in Australia. That get spooling quicker!
The turbo is loaded by the mass of air it has to move, not the pressure. By adding that blow-off valve, you are actually loading the turbo more by making it flow more air. Increasing the hot side air flow is what you should be focusing on to spool it faster. It looks like this turbo is just too big to operate on this engine below 6 or 7k rpm. You might want to look at the surge line of the turbo vs the actual air flow of the engine at lower rpm
Life where money (or not the lack of) doesn't hold you back... just building what ever you can imagine! Nice......
The turbine housing on that turbo is massive so its lazy down low but crazy power up top once its spooled up
Turbo or Blower, it all depends on the application, how the engine was made, what parts it has and everything that belongs to the tuning of the engines all counts some cases blower its better combo and some case turbo all depends what you gonna do with it are it straith line track car or driffter.
Love yalls team work !
What if you just took the blower gears (procharger) out of the housing all together, removed the charge pipe & call that your street tune. Once at the track, replace the gears, boost pipe, flash race tune into it & call it good. Seems like a lot of work to convert from street to strip, but you already have to do that with lower ratio gears anyway.
This would be a lot easier with a belt driven procharger. By removing all boost and going NA on the street, a much cheaper fuel could be used.
SMX in England…righteous!
@@bonose12 anyone know where he is gonna race i always wanted to see a smx pass im in england
@@112boatmangotta be Santa pod, one of the most popular drag strips in the uk
@@This_Time_Next_Year_Rodney cheers i will check it out
where’s he going to get e85 here in blighty?
@@eliotmansfieldmight be having it shipped in. I know there’s some companies that ship to other countries
I like the turbo wastegate idea. That is more learning for me!
I want to say I saw the video on eagles new motor from cleetus and I think it’s awesome to see the difference in a monster street car motor such as the smx and the proline hemi for essentially a pro mod track car and how they differ I want to say props to you and the job that you do to make a motor so powerful for the street and the engineering behind it
would be worth while having a gearbox and a few converters (for diffrent applications) that way you could simulate a more real world situation to aid in developing diffrent strategies to overcome such issues as turbo cars not being able to build boost on the line (ive seen test sessions here in AUS were every car failed to build boost on the line). same with being able to control temp and humidity basically set your DA in the dyno rooms for the same application???
The difference between a great big turbo and a great big supercharger is that Superchargers are awesome, but turbos are a pain in the ass. Ditch the turbo and enjoy racing!
Big turbos always suck at lower rpms, they don't get enough gas velocity to work over a wide range...☹
Twins of a smaller size can help if sized correctly and with oem cars variable geometry makes huge differences to driveability, my 2.2 litre Ford diesel makes over 330 lbs/ft at 1500 rpm with minimal turbo lag, with a variable geometry turbo that has done 201K miles without any repairs required...
I'm pushing 60 years old and have been making my living as mechanic and shop owner since teenager. Been active drag racer and dabbled in other motor sports. I've been hard core old school and still competitive some what. You have really helped me learn and understand how it works and tune with more than my screw drivers, timing light, and reading plugs. Really enjoy your real deal the way it is. I've had some great combinations and way more not so great. Some I should have lit a stack of cash on fire to save time.
Lean of Peak EGT mixture - do any tuners switch to that when a fuel limitation is reached? It seems like that could be a safe strategy to avoid peak temperature and pressure scenarios which could damage parts.. That might be a better alternative than just running into the red when there’s a problem. It assumes that the mixture of individual combustion events could be controlled by injector duty cycle, which I think is true, but might need to be checked out. Controllers might need some control logic. A related approach would be for the controller to start cutting duty cycle on some cylinders while increasing it on other cylinders. The reduction on some cylinders would result in more fuel being available for other cylinders. Main point is that lean mixture may only be dangerous to components when it results in peak EGT. And EGT drops once the mixture is continued to be leaned. And, lean mixture doesn’t necessarily result in misfire within a safe range of mixtures - so long as the spark is hot and provides enough chamber coverage.
I always thought they had there pros and cons for each. Good information. Personally I have always been partial to roots blowers. I have friends that worked at Roots blowers in Indiana.
Steve, I think a bunch of people would appreciate a little explanation on the Devel Sixteen development. Have you signed an NDA? What happened to the cars progress, the company, the engine, etc. I believe a lot of people would like to know.
I mean the centrifugal supercharger is nearly identical in concept to a turbo.
Not to get off track here, but interested in how a roots or screw would differ as well.
The turbo will make more power, but the blower will be more controllable.
Hell yeah turbo all day.
@HoldPublicPigsResponsible just depends on what type of racing. For lower level stuff I agree.
@@1clnsdime1I’ll pick a turbo all day any racing. It’s proven already. Roll racing which I do in my coyote I have twin 64s precisions makes about 1400 on highest map on e85. I like how nice and easy it is to turn up boost on turbos. A few buttons and I switch between maps. Also it’s my daily driver. Tuned by lund. Built motor from FFRE.
I'd like a little more explanation on the waste gate blow-off valve being so detrimental on centrifugal superchargers. Do you mean like active control or just having a boost leak. I've seen 2 different instances of people Taking a hole saw to a charge pipe to lower boost. I get it still takes 500 hp to drive but the impeller and gears should still be loaded.
SME Just Blinded me with SCIENCE
The turbo motor spooling waste-gate worked just like a fighter jet engine! It bleeds air for acceleration. The only additional thing for jet engines is that it prevents engine compressor stalls.
Maybe the turbo needs the ram air effect also like when it's in a car thats in motion. idk its just a guess.
So cool you can build these motors and hand it to someone .With the gear ratio, track is different but you got them in the ball park to make it work. Facts don't lie and you have no reason to change the facts. That would be like lieing to yourself
You Sir have taken this ICE to it's max. Much Respect. Street engines should not be able to do what you make them do.
In an earlier video, you made the point that when you run a blower/turbo straight into the atmosphere that is actually has to work harder since there is a constant 14.7psi to push against as opposed to the vacuum created by the descending pistons. I don't know of that's true or not, but it stuck me at the time as very interesting.
I typed this before you talked about doing it with the blower. If the drive pressure on the blower goes up, why wouldn't the turbo do the same thing? Lots of things going on there. Interesting to think about
On your big single charger setup. Can you get your dyno to pull the motor from top to down. Higher rpms will get the turbo spinning faster and light easier and more consistent.
Great content Steve!!! 👍🇺🇸👍🇺🇸👍🇺🇸
It's great that you tell us EXACTLY what set-ups you're using on each different engine combo.
Now my boy's and I will have to subscribe to Kyle's channel 😅😂
You could also do what the Honda guys do.. a NOS bottle to help with the spool
Basically on a pro charged engine you must reinforce and balance from the bottom up.
Would it be feasible to put an A/T between the engine and the dyno?
It would test real world applications.
Even when using a chassis dyno or hub dyno, they don't typically shift during the pull and usually make it in the 1:1 gear.
damn, 80 minutes. steve on here makin feature length films
I had a moment of "damn bro don't tell me that..." then I checked and realized I am 51mins in already without noticing!
Stoked to have half an hour left.
Very cool comparison. Loved it.
Interesting to note. As Always, May God Bless you and yours! 😇
Awsome trying the pressure side dump
I really hope I get to meet you someday and shake your hand. You are asking the questions and experimenting all the things I think about. I’ve never heard anyone try to explain freewheeling a supercharger is bad. The stacking of atmospheric pressure in front of the blower is the cushion that prevents damage. Not a lot of people know this. But they know you need to have a harmonic balancer on the crank!
Aside form the parasitic loss, here's also heat. And at some point with the impellor speed, it will also start to stall thus run out of air like the turbo compressor does.
Should build a simple chassis with a transmission and rear-end that you can hook motors up to for the hub dyno. Would this solve the problem?
Make an input on a table that will pull timing starting at 5000 rpm and go to -20 by 5200 rpm, this will act like a rev limiter but be butter smooth and it will spool the turbo with no engine load, let it go once you hit the boost you want
A compound turbo setup would probably fix the boost issue.
I have been fascinated waiting to see how this turned out!
If you can use the dyno to hold the engine at launch rpm with the throttle wide open while pulling timing to build boost then start the pull maybe it would work?edit: nevermind i just heard the explanation lol
What does it mean maybe the converter and box on the motor before the dyno would be easier to set up with trans brake function etc.
Procharger>Turbo. Yes, I know....max peak HP with a turbo before you get your panties in a crunch. Regardless, as Steve mentioned, consistancy, reliability, tunability, and many other reasons why Prochargers are better to work with when you are ACTUALLY racing at the track.
Can you write a dyno loading scaling facor for the 1st few seconds or under a given rpm? Instead of 1:1 input to output. Use a subprogram to produce 3:1 for the first 2 or 3 seconds of the pull to get more initial turbine shaft speed
I understand you need one to one for accurate numbers from the dyno. But you also need exaggerated load to make the turbo spool.
Does a motor that is making more power, spin the turbo faster? I ask because when the charge pipe waste gate was open and the turbo didn't respond very well in regards to the turbo spinning faster, my thought was that the feedback loop that the turbo needs to spool itself, was "broken". If the turbo can't increase charge pipe pressure, then it can't give the motor the horsepower it needs to spin the turbo faster. No boost = no spool. Opening the charge pipe waste gate just made it worse in theory. I can see how there would be lots of variables with engine size, turbo size etc. It just seems like in this case, the turbo might spool better when giving it every opportunity to give the motor more power. Even if only a few psi.
Excellent video Steve, love how you explain everything.
Wonder if you could do a twin setup but running one procharger and a turbo in the same package and get the befits from both.
I'm a blower fan. Surprised we don't see more of them on drag and drive events
Steve your channel is one of the best when it comes to feeding my engineering mind in this arena. Awesome vids ty. 🤙
On the turbo engine would what you’re doing with the boost gate you installed help to get on the 2 step quicker in high elevation
Steve did you think of using the type of boost control system that Mark Micki runs? No waste gates and boost is controlled by 2 blow off valves in the intake tube.
Learned tremendous amount from this video. Nice work steve
I have a 5th Gen Camaro SS. I definitely debate if I should go ProCharger or a turbo setup. Still want to drive it on the street and highways. Also want to do some long distance trips too
Great content thanks for sharing
LOL at the cleeter peter beaters in the comments...
"reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee he's using a Mopar in a camaro!!" hahahaha
so stunned