U.S. High Speed Rail - Atlanta, Georgia and Charlotte, North Carolina | HSR City Pair Analysis
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- Опубліковано 29 тра 2024
- This is a closer look at what might be required in order to run a high speed passenger train between Atlanta, Georgia and Charlotte, North Carolina in the United States of America. We'll go into detail about routing, station location, development, challenges, and necessary structures.
A little different on this one because an official route analysis, Tier 1 EIS, and federal Record of Decision all exist for this city pair. However, I am not the biggest fan of the route chosen in the official analysis and want to compare MY choice to that one. Here I introduce the viewer to the route of my liking between Atlanta and Charlotte. In a following video I'll look at the preferred alternative in a similar way and will compare the two.
You may notice the video poses a question about the choice between airport-to-airport and downtown-to-downtown options. Let me know what your opinion is about the choice in the comments.
I will be doing more of these types of videos. If you have a suggestion for a city pair of 1 million+ each with no large metros between, please let me know and I will consider it and might make a video about it.
Links to the Atlanta-Charlotte reports:
FEIS/RoD www.dot.ga.gov/InvestSmart/Ra...
Preliminary Routes Report
railroads.dot.gov/elibrary/at...
Stock footage was from Pexel.com and Pixabay.com, both excellent sources for free video footage.
0:00 Introduction
0:19 Atlanta Overview
0:59 Charlotte Overview
1:47 Existing Studies
2:57 HSR Guiding Principles
3:11 Issues with the Preferred Alternative
4:11 Positives of a Different Route
5:12 Charlotte Douglas to Rock Hill,SC
6:50 Rock Hill,SC to Columbia,SC
8:54 Columbia,SC to Augusta,GA
10:20 Augusta,GA to Stonecrest,GA
12:31 Stonecrest,GA to Hartsfield-Jackson
15:10 Travel Times
16:13 Airport to Airport Cost
17:07 Yay or Nay
17:16 Downtown to Downtown Routing
20:12 Downtown to Downtown Cost and Travel Time
20:51 Up Next
21:49 See You On That Big, Beautiful Freeway!
Topics:
Washington D.C.
Philadelphia
Charlotte Douglas International Airport
CATS
Fort Jackson
Fort Gordon
SEHSR
Southeast Corridor
University of South Carolina
South Carolina state capitol
The Mall at Stonecrest
Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport
Charlotte LYNX - Наука та технологія
Congratulations on your 5000th subscriber.
Your channel has become the one and only channel for serious, informed discussion of proposed high speed rail development in the U.S. Because of that, you're making a significant contribution to the emerging grass-roots movement in support of HSR. Thank you for your effort.
Thank you. It is really the mission statement here: to give people an idea of what we're really talking about when we say 'build HSR'. I'm glad I've been able to moderate things slightly so that commenters feel engaged and free to express an opinion.
For the airports, connecting as directly as possible to the international terminals is important. That way poeple coming in from abroad can tranferly easily to a train instead of a flight.
At Hartsfield-Jackson the terminals are on either side of the airport, so international is certainly possible. Charlotte Douglas the airport authority doesn't want a station on the property because they don't want expansion constrained. CATS ran into this problem with their silver line extension planning.
3. Points. 1 Cool video.
2. If it were real HSR, this could work. But, as it's more likely to be built at max 125mph, it needs to go through Greenville to compete with car traffic.
3. The downtown charlotte station is necessary for linking up to Raleigh.
1. Thanks.
2. I kind of like the idea of both if the I-85 route is feasible. I wasn't a fan at a very high level. I'll see how I feel at a slightly less high level. The southeast is uniquely poised to have a European-style system, and unlike the Great Lakes region, the southeast will grow into it massively. I think both Atlanta and Charlotte could be hub and spoke, as intimated in the video.
3. Along the same lines, if you ring Charlotte with rail in or near the I-485, you can transfer to local transit from there. Also would allow easy bypass for through routes without having to go through the city center.
@@LucidStewhow is the southeast uniquely poised to a European style HSR?
@@Beaster456 There is still room around some of the metros to run bypasses in existing rights of way so you can do a proper hub and spoke system with them.
i think something that is missed with the route you chose is the extension to athens GA in the preferred rout. as the largest town bypassed by interstates. for such a large college in the state and no easy way to get there, with an already walkable downtown and talks of a transit connection to atlanta for a long time, i think it would be a reasonable add on.
Fair point that I left out Athens. It will be covered in the next video going over the preferred route.
Should be a frequent regional service though
I'm glad to get more context on how the Atlanta Charlotte corridor can work. If you ever revisit this I hope you'll consider an extension to Raleigh NC or if you are feeling very ambitious find a way to Richmond VA and even DC to connect to the NEC.
I will be coming back to this next city pair video. Washington D.C.-Richmond and Richmond-Raleigh both have Tier 2 RoDs. Beyond that, I have all of that on my city pair requested list, AND I still have the Southeast Corridor video to do, so you'll definitely be hearing more about this region from me.
11:05 the longest straight stretch of interstate in the country is 72 miles long between Grand Island and Lincoln, Nebraska
It's straightISH. That Georgia portion of I-20 is really honking straight.
@@LucidStew let me have this 🥺😭
@@LucidStewthe portion he mentioned is about as straight as straight gets. The Georgia portion is far from being as straight.
@@skygge1006Is this some sort of Nebraska pride thing? We can all look at both from space, you know. I feel like I might need to do a YT Short on the matter.
@@LucidStew I’d settle for an analysis on a high speed rail route between Lincoln & Omaha extending to Kansas City or Des Moines (while fully aware that at the end of the video the answer will be: “No” to funding it.)
Maybe a look into a Houston to Baton Rouge, with a possible spur down to New Orleans. Then from Baton Rouge to Tallahassee, with stops in Biloxi, MS; Mobile, AL; and Pensacola, FL. Finishing off at Jacksonville, FL, to hook into the Brightline system. If more stops are needed, fill free to add them in.
I will be doing the Gulf Coast HSR Corridor Friday after next, which covers Houston to Atlanta via N.O. with a spur to Mobile.
Thank you for an excellent presentation. I love your methodology with cost and time estimates. Given that Atlanta needs to become a passenger rail hub pairing with Charlotte makes the most sense as the first choice vs. Savannah or Nashville or others. Others have mentioned that should the Raleigh NC to Richmond VA route be upgraded then this would greatly increase passenger rail service by connecting to the NEC.
I hadn't looked into the SEHSR with any real depth until this video. Man, just a lot of potential especially considering how that part of the country is growing. I'd put it on even footing with Texas Triangle. But, that could change once I look more closely at both...
@@LucidStewIt will be very interesting to see what you conclude. The Dallas to Houston route is shorter with two larger cities. However, land acquisition may be more costly and have more opposition in Texas than this SE route. This topic you are discussing is quite engaging. I appreciate you.
@@davidjackson7281 I've looked at from a very high level. I-35 is something of a nightmare, especially between S.A. and Austin. Dallas-Houston I'm fine with TCR route, but the opposition is pushing for an I-45 route instead. Looking into that might make an interesting video on its own.
This channel keeps it professional with some light jokes. I Love it! Unlike Alan Fisher's channel who tries to act like some sort of "Alpha Male" and "I know everything" kinda content creator.
Alan Fisher's video about RealLifeLore's video on CAHSR had a major influence on this channel. I discovered neither of them really knew what they were talking about, yet managed to pull in millions of views on the subject. It inspired me to try to set the record more straight on the issue. This was further influenced by Alan Fisher's absurd video in which he declared the now popular stance of "I don't care what it costs". The irony being that people not caring what it costs is a major factor in it having gotten so out of control, and of course that very much endangers the future of the project.
@@LucidStew I appreciate the response. Alan's "I dont care what it cost" motto is the reason alot of people are turned off by his channel and going to other creators such as yourself. The guy is always trying to act hard. Keep up the great work and know you gained a new fan today 👍
Amtrak should consider modifying one of their NYC - Florida "Silver" routes to include the segment between Charlotte, NC & Columbia, SC. As the Amtrak routing currently exists, you can't get directly from Charlotte to anywhere in Florida.
I'd argue THIS should be part of the SEHSR Corridor. Columbia-Savannah is. That would get you to Jacksonville, assuming completion of the corridor.
@@LucidStew Since rail lines already exist between Charlotte & Columbia, there shouldn't be too much opposition to get that segment up and running within a short time period. A HSR route (that you describe) going on to Atlanta seems do-able, except that such a new construction rail line would take at least a decade to complete.
I love HSR, and this is the best proposal I have ever seen, I really hope you are seen by the people higher up!
They should connect high speed rail From Atlanta Georgia to Florida since there been lots of trips made allot.
There's some vague plans to build an Atlanta - Macon - Jacksonville route and when connected to brightline it would connect to Tampa, Orlando, and Miami
Atlanta to Jacksonville via Macon and Savannah is part of the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, but I've not seen anything yet for the portion. There has been so motion on all of D.C. to Atlanta, but its all still pretty far out. It is rumored that Brightline will extend to Jacksonville at some point.
Wow I'm so glad you're making these videos. In order to make HSR a reality in much of the US these conversations need to happen. Very Informative, you earned a subscriber!
Agreed. Thanks for the sub!
Spoiler alert: The Tier 1 review determined that following I-85 right-of-way would be the *most* expensive route. 🤷♂️
The thing that amazed me was that they punted on the approach to Atlanta. I looked at that I-85 approach and was like "ok, what else we got?"
For good reason too. Parts of I-85 pre-date the interstate highway system, in South Carolina, when it was being constructed originally as a new super-two U.S. 29 route before changed half-way into an interstate in the 1950s. The right-of-way is tight in a lot of areas in South Carolina, with no median to work with in large sections and the reconstruction of many bridges to make it work. Northern Georgia is wide open, but that approach into Atlanta after I-985 would be expensive to overcome.
Your analysis is some of the best I've ever seen great job!
I have some reservations to put a HSR station next to a mall. Don't get me wrong malls and train stations are excellent combos in general but a one line HSR station is probably the worst possible option. HSR is like an airline, mostly used for planned in advanced long distance travel, something a trip to the mall just isn't. The best type of station for a mall is one with a lot of local lines connecting with each other. The mall HSR station can still work but it all depends on how convenient and affordable the HSR use is. If the tickets are more expensive if you buy them last minute like the way Thalys and Eurostar tickets their trains; the use for mall purpose will be very poor. If the HSR is relatively cheap and with a fixed price, like the German ICE trains do, it's still worth it I think.
The mall is dead, so the idea is more to redevelop the mall property around the station into mixed-use. The mall structures already being there makes repurposing, rather than outright demolition, a little more likely.
I think that line can even expand to Raleigh NC, sense that city is also growing
There are various plans currently in the works for D.C. to Chattanooga via Raleigh and Charlotte. I have Charlotte-Raleigh on my city pair list. I'll probably end up doing at least 4 or 5 videos about that area of the south in the coming year.
I think airport to airport connection is the way to go. This way maybe even Delta and American Airlines could invest in the project since it will make better connections for their hubs.
I'm leaning that way as well. I read somewhere that CATS doesn't expect much demand on the silver line to the airport from Charlotte Gateway. This would certainly provide some. Apparently you can get to Hartsfield-Jackson from downtown in about 15 mins, which is only about twice what I figured. BUT, that Centennial Yards development is tempting for sure.
@@LucidStewI don’t trust much that CATS has to say. They’re completely incompetent. I think the silver line would be great for lots of airport employees.
Cats is dumb as fuck
@@LucidStew It would help ridership on both HSR and Silver line if the station were located in short tunnels under the main airport passenger terminal.
@@NES2728 The airport authority apparently isn't hot on direct connections as they feel it would impede their ability to expand. Maybe AFTER they expand?(realistically it would be decades before anything like this were built)
Loved your presentation on this! This is my home turf so I have studied this corridor extensively. Did you look at utility corridors at all? There’s a practically straight one from Conyers Ga (along I-20 in the Atlanta suburbs) to Newport, SC (just beyond Rock Hill SC near I-77 south of Charlotte) and it skirts by Athens, GA. There are a couple of places where it would be in folks’ backyards but no more so than along the freeway route.
I think it’s promising because of the GDOT report that opted for greenfield+ Athens. From that report, I think a main diversion to Greenfield/Spartanburg would be a mistake, but a branch line/spur could work (possibly even using slow but existing tracks).
Keep up the great work!
Looks like a gas pipeline, though, if I'm looking at the same one. To answer the question posed, no. I give the map a very good look, but I'm not familiar with the area. Doesn't surprise me I missed it, even trying to figure out exactly where they were going to run that Greenfield route. I'll probably have a much better idea of things when I do that video in about a month. :) I'm also quite skeptical about the Greenville-Spartanburg jog. That's a pretty minor airport for such a drastic main line diversion. At a minimum they should also build a bypass.
250 to 270kmh avg. Is not bad for the start. It is very similar to the ICE here in Germany. But we do not have a lot of hsr only trecks.
250-270kmh is far away frim avg in germany
@@E11or from evg. Yes. I meant the schnellfahrstrecken where the ICEs get up to 250kmh. But like I that these are rare .
@@PuNicAdbo yes munich - berlin is pretty quick on avg.
Is there a proposal for a route between Columbus, Cincinnati, Louisville all the way to Nashville? Seems like a promising corridor.
The short answer is no. There has been a study by the state of Ohio for a line from Cleveland to Cincinnati. This is part of the Chicago Hub Network HSR Corridor. Louisville is as well, but it would be accessed via Indianapolis, which would connect to Cincinnati. Nothing currently between Louisville and Nashville, however there has been some minor movement on Atlanta to Nashville, so at some point closing that gap will be more of a priority.
Wouldn't connections to Augusta-Bushfield and Columbia-Metro Airport be better, turning then into hub satellites to Atlanta and Charlotte's airports? It may relieve both from the number of flights comming in.
What is the reason why GDOT didn't choose this route?
They don’t intend to actually build high speed rail
The biggest strike was that it isn't part of the SEHSR corridor. However, for some reason they also developed brain lock and pretended like it wasn't possible to connect to Charlotte Douglas via I-485. I'm not sure why. That was another strike. The Greenville routes also got extra credit for connecting to the airport there. Also took a hit on employment proximity, but they chose a stupid place for their Columbia station. The routes report does say that this I-77/I-20 would be the fastest. Even faster than the preferred. I'll post the links to the reports in the description. I was so frantic to get the thing upload I forgot.
@@LucidStew I think for some reason those government agencies tend to underestimate the land acquisition cost. Cal HSR also made this mistake as they think they can just use imminent domain to cut through private farmland with no problem...
On the other hand, Brightline Florida shows how much easier it is if land acquisition is not an issue.
@@onetwothreeabc My main thing is trying to learn from what has already happened. I have examples where this was a huge issue. If a project can come along and do otherwise, maybe I change my mind.
I'm skeptical about that city pair. At glance it seems like a no-brainer due to the metro areas' populations and the 250-ish mile "sweet spot" from city center to city center, but those places face a couple challenges: first and most importantly, relatively low population densities; and second, varying and potentially competing interests, preferences, and levels of commitment among the three states involved (as compared with the in-state systems of California, Florida, and Texas).
The first likely means that a higher percentage of potential users would have to do a lot of driving just to get to the stations, which then dilutes the argument that the rail option will reduce their negative experiences with driving. That problem might be addressed with additional, conveniently-located stations in the sprawling suburbs, but in turn that would increase travel times, probably to the point that it's more of a traditional/commuter rail system than HSR, further adding to the problem of convincing an already car-centric consumer base to consider rail.
Similarly, an attempt to include out-of-the-way places like Augusta and Colombia...while casting a wider net of potential riders...probably reduces the value for the Atlanta/Charlotte audience that seeks faster, more convenient travel between the primary/focal cities. In that regard, the highlighted route, in a well-intentioned attempt to please everyone, will end up pleasing (almost) no one.
The intent of this route was not to please everyone, but to chose a way between the two areas that could actually get done and in an expedient manner. That it hits more people in the total metros is coincidence. And like I said in the video, it would be extremely fast.
This video proposes 8 stations. 2 are at airports, 3 are in the middle of the most dense parts of their metros, 2 are intended as "park and ride", the other is simply to have something to serve the metro of 600,000 the line is going through. All of the non-urban station sites were chosen because there is available land to develop directly around them. While the metros are not dense, this proposal does not cater to that lack of density. Beyond that, how does one build density if one does not facilitate it?
I agree there are many factors that could keep something like this from being built. That's why I stick to the route. :) These are meant as an exercise to go beyond "Build HSR" to give a better idea of what that would actually mean in a given area and what it might cost.
Also, this does raise larger questions about HSR-advocates’ insistence on serving “city centers.” It is **tough** slicing through the suburbs! And it will be eye-wateringly expensive. (You think CAHSR is expensive now?? Wait until they try to get to downtown SF/LA. You ain’t seen nothing yet!)
Atlanta’s airport is the *busiest* in the world-the vast majority of that is domestic travel and it’s mostly Delta passengers connecting to another flight. Having a partnership where every Charlotte-bound Delta passenger and every Atlanta-bound American passenger uses the HSR could be beneficial to all parties (American already does bustitution for at least one of their flights).
Personally I've been attempting to take in as much information as possible and have definitely heard from some that this can be less than ideal. I think everything has its place. Here I'm just not sure it's necessary, especially with Charlotte which has a fairly unique capacity to support ring rail. That combined with CATS, its probably not necessary to get inside I-485. Atlanta is less capable in that regard, but especially if we're aiming for Hartsfield-Jackson, MARTA is right at the domestic terminal and gets to downtown in 15 minutes.
On the other end, I will argue strongly for that downtown Columbia station because there is no other satisfactory place for a station around Columbia, as far as I could tell, and I really did look for one. Plus it has some real positives, like the proximity to the state Capitol complex and U of SC. It's not the cheapest solution, but it also isn't that bad.
Agree on the airports. A positive of the connection would be elimination of ALT-CLT flights, freeing up runway time for more lucrative routes. Pretty sure the airlines would support that IF the system weren't too extensive. Extend that from Boston to Miami and they probably get paranoid about it.
>Columbia
Now you got me playing around with Google Maps again. SC 277 intersects with Norfolk Southern trackage that which links with CSX trackage at the correct spot to hit the existing Amtrak station and points you back to I-20. I could get behind building a direct I-77 to I-20 high speed bypass of Columbia and serving Columbia at the existing station. CSX tracks could even take you to I-20. Now we just have to convince CSX/NS to electrify a small portion of their tracks and/or find dual-mode high speed trains.
@@LucidStewGood note to end on. lol
Question : where would you put train maintenance depots and would you supply passive connections to the existing network for future service throughrunning?
For maintenance, in Atlanta there is a bunch of room north of I-285 between I-20 and the airport. Charlotte just southwest of the airport. Augusta isn't far from halfway, there is some space along I-20 about 4 miles west of the proposed station in the video.
As far as connecting to existing networks goes...MARTA's heavy rail is 3rd rail, but LYNX is catenary, so I wonder if that would be possible. They're not grade separated, though. LYNX is also a low-floor system, so you'd have issues with platforms. There are definitely places on the planned silver line where you could hook in. If there were ring rail around I-485, that would get even more interesting. As far as freight rail goes, its all freight owned and none of it is electrified(and probably wont be), so not sure there's a point to that.
it would be interesting to see your take on the acela corridor for truly high speed rail from Washington to Boston. Would you keep the current alignment or build partly new ones like the North Atlantic Rail suggests. It would be interesting to get your take.
I'll get to it eventually. I'm working through the federal HSR corridors + NEC, but the series is going a little slower than planned.
SC native here. I think there would be a lot more pushback with Charlotte to CAE to AUG to ATL as the original plan. Columbia and the surrounding areas have a high density of NIMBYs and is highly car dependent. I do think the 85 Corridor, while more expensive, is more realistic since Greenville has really started to push back on car-centric development and would see higher immediate ridership. Currently Greenville is projected to continue to hold onto it’s top 15 fastest growing cities in the US with its increase in population is fueled by more people being pushed further away from Atlanta and Charlotte and down the 85 corridor for more affordable living (and working hybrid schedules in either city) Once the connection is made through Greenville, I could see pundits in both Columbia and Charleston pushing for connectivity especially as Charleston is continued to expand outward as another Top 50 fastest growing cities in the US.
One issue with the Greenville-Spartanburg area is its spread-out nature and lack of cohesive means of funneling commuters to an HSR station in the area. I think if the proposed Greenfield alternative is forwarded eventually, the area will need to come up with something or a station out there might be underutilized.
One of the ideas of sticking to existing rights of way is to give potential opposition less to complain about. Columbia in particular I have the station as urban as Charlotte or Atlanta in order to reduce car dependency. Not much you can do about Augusta. In those regards, Greenville-Spartanburg poses a big planning challenge due to its lack of density and I-85 being an awful alignment for rail.
@@LucidStew What would be your insights onto the Crescent Line Retrofit proposal? I get that it doesn't go through Anderson/Athens, and chances are it would have to cut out a number of stops in upstate South Carolina from it's HSR system, but I do believe it would be a cheaper alternative if they were adamant on keeping Greenville in as a stop.
I love your detailed work and your sprinkle of memes (esp. in Stew's News) I was wondering though, what is your background to have such intimate knowledge of HSR? I am interested to see the industry grow in the US, and would love to get involved employment-wise, but I'm just really not sure where to start to get a foot into the industry. What would you do?
Thanks. I'm really just interested in the subject and have been doing a lot of research in the last 3 months. That on top of following CAHSR pretty closely for over 10 years. The amount of places to try to get into the industry appear vast. You have Amtrak, of course, the various freight rail companies, the various HSR projects underway, Brightline, the various HSR corridor commissions, the departments of transportation of each state and the federal one. Transportation consultants as well are pretty involved in the process. Politics too, specifically if you have a Senator or Representative that supports intercity rail.
I think that your route is alright but it misses a few key locations, namely Athens and Gwinnett County. Athens is a major center of population not connected by interstate and the corridor from atlanta to athens also has emory, gwinnett tech, and tons of businesses. Gwinnett county is the second if not first most populated county in georgia with its own transit hub to be built at the old gwinnett place mall (they just got money to redev it into a huge bus hub). As far as the approach into atlanta, i was thinking viaducts along the powerline swathes cutting through the landscape. It works pretty well until the Virginia Highlands neighborhood when you have to either tunnel through downtown for a station in the mechanicsville area, or viaduct to the same location. The Gulch is simply not a decent location because it is already overburdened from a rail perspective, and going north/northeast from there is horrendous to plan; one would have to tunnel under georgia tech, among other things. Not worth it. besides, mechanicsville is mostly parking lots as seen from google maps and it isnt too far from downtown. from there to atl airport is trivial. I agree with your approach of going north into NC instead of NW as the plans suggest though. With my way north into gastonia you can just pop down to columbia, and connect to savannah easily like that in the future if needed
I think I see what you're talking about. I get that the northeast part of the metro is desirable to serve, but that's a nightmare to get through. The only wide open utility corridor I see west of Athens has an oil pipeline in it. U.S. 29 looks like a possibility, but once you get to Gwinnett, there's nowhere to go. The utility corridor between Gwinnett and downtown is packed. I doubt you'd be able to use that. Mechanicsville does not look like a good idea to me for a station. It's just not convenient to anything.
In my defense on The Gulch station location, if that were continued north, you'd end up under I-85. From there you could transition to I-75 north to Chattanooga, but to be honest I hadn't thought that far ahead. Preferably there would be a way to get a fair amount of the way around I-285 so you wouldn't have to go THROUGH dt Atlanta at all.
In your opinion what's the most realistic scenario linking west coast to east coast? I know it's not realistic, but I dream of high-speed rail from SF to NYC. I think it could be possibly useful if you incorporate sleeper trains into high speed rail. If you effectively cut travel time by 8 hours, it almost makes sense compared to flights
HSR is not at all realistic after 600 miles.
In my opinion the most realistic coast to coast scenario is none. It doesn't make much sense to me between about Tucson and San Antonio. If that was going to happen, the southern route near I-10 would make the most sense. However, all you pick up for 850 miles of expense is El Paso.
Winston Salem, Charlotte, Atlanta
I think Denver and Salt Lake City can be a good city pair investigation.
Are you being serious or attempting to torture me?
@@LucidStewI can appreciate SLC wanting to be connected to LV, Boise and now Denver which would be a nightmare trying to go across Colorado along I-70 especially through Glenwood Canyon. Amtrak does this already albeit slowly. It would be nice if the California Zephyr's speed could be faster so the 32 hours from Oakland to Denver are reduced closer to 24 hours though that would probably mean going through the scenic areas closer to nighttime.
@@davidjackson7281 depending on time of year and delays it is more than likely to be dark or twilight getting out of the Moffat Tunnel east-bound
I-70 would be a non-starter for that route without extreme tunneling but I-80 would work much better. The major issue I see with I-80 is high crosswinds. You often see trucks blown over, especially when it gets icy. I am entirely unfamiliar with HSR routes through windy corridors, so maybe it's not a problem at all.
@@sniper.93c14That's true eastbound with the current schedule. Westbound it's OK. With a faster schedule that I suggested it would be OK westbound but it would be before dawn going eastbound through the scenic Glenwood Canyon.
A 525 mile route from SLC with a metro-population of only 1.2 million (down from 1.25 million and the city's population is 204k) to Denver with a metro-population of 2.9 million which is also not big enough nor close enough to warrant/support HSR.
But the current Amtrak route, with even just a second daily train, could be improved to be faster and more convenient. It arrives in SLC eastbound at three am and at eleven pm westbound.
TYSM FOR DOING THIS
YWSM
I like your work but there a few problems with your suggestions and estimates - especially with speeds and journey time (they is over optimistic).
For journey time - you calculate it by stretches and whether it's straight enough to support top speed but, with all due respect to Google Maps, there are a lot of things on the ground that can prevent this and you don't take elevation into account. High speed rail can, theoretically, support up to 4% grades but it is the top limit and it won't be able to maintain top speeds. Even a relatively small elevation of the road can require a tunnel to maintain top speeds. Also, every slowdown prolongs the length of the slower section into the top speed ones due to deceleration and acceleration distances. As for the maximum top speed. The world standard for top high speed tracks is, indeed, 220 mi/h but the operating speeds are 186 mi/h, only a handful reach 200 mi/h and only in China a few trains have an operation speeds of up to 220, mi/h and, with all due respect, you won't reach this, certainly not with costing lines that stick to road's right of way and avoid tunnels and viaducts like the plague.
Speed is important but it has a cost and above certain speeds the benefits are outweighed by the extra operation costs. Conventional high speed trains can reach far higher speeds that the current ones but they don't due to high energy costs required to reach those speeds.
I also don't like the over importance you put on airports to the point that they are more important than the city. Most rail passengers are from the cities it serves, not from airport passengers, that mostly choose the airport in the area they want to be in and one of the advantages of train is that they can avoid the annoying ride to the out of the city airport and you send them to do just that. If I'm already going to the airport I might as well take a flight. If possible you can accommodate both but if you need to choose one due to costs it should always be the city center.
As for costs, As I said, there are always surprises and the norm all over the world with, basically, any project is that costs end up higher than expected. That said, the costs in the US are incredibly high. I've heard a lot of reasons and maybe it won't help but you should try using a foreign company that knows how to build those things in a much affordable manner, and I'm not talking about the Chinese (that are not the cheapest). The main EU countries are the best at cost/quality for such projects and the best is Spain. They'll won't be able to do it as cheap as they do in Spain but they can probably significantly reduce costs.
And lastly, maybe you should change direction. Instead of starting with HSR maybe you should scale it back to basic first. Invest in urban and regional transit firs, start buying back freight lines, improve them and create regular electric higher speed intercity rail and than move to HSR.
The video provides you with an overview of my estimation process, but that is not the entirety of it. In the commission of these videos I stare at maps, both 2D and 3D, for a solid week. I'm not snapping my fingers and choosing a route, either. I look at options for a couple of days before deciding. I then need to do all the research into the subject and every part of the route I'm talking about. I'm as familiar with the route taken as the 2D and 3D maps afford. That needs to be good enough because I'm not heading to South Carolina to personally survey the route to make a YT video.
The statement "you don't take elevation into account" is false. I mention at the end that the route between Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport and downtown Atlanta, top speed is mainly constrained by grade changes. Now how could I come to that conclusion if I neglected grade? This route overall is relatively level. It can mainly be made more level with earthworks alone.
As expressed in the video, the freeway rights of way or quite straight and a very high speed is attainable by sticking mostly to them. This conclusion is shared by the official route analysis, by the way. Also pointed out in the video, a route that is more constrained by the freeway ROW would be about $6 billion cheaper. This would be subtracting the additional viaduct necessary to attain higher speed.
There is no "over importance" placed on airports. If you review the HSR guiding principles section of the video you will see that #7 is "connect to major airports WHEN FEASIBLE". Doesn't say "as a priority" or "at any cost" or anything like that. The two mentioned here are connected to because they are convenient. Every other airport in the entire region is ignored. The relevance here is that both airports as an end point would connect to local existing or planned transit. Again, this is expressed in the video.
Spend the money. Connect the downtowns. One-seat rides provide the convenience that make the difference in users choosing to take the train.
cool
Fewer words for streets, buildings, and arenas? In Atlanta, we see it as a challenge to add as many names a possible. The more confusing and hard to say in combination, the better.
feeder lines and feeder trains
This is interesting.
I love you stew
Thank you, that's very flattering.
how you getting folks to ride, i here England has an underused system but is building HST2 anyway
You have some level of demand based on their collective populations and the distance. Then on top of that, Atlanta and Charlotte both have decent local transit, so the conduit is potentially there. But, it is a primary concern, and I think its best answered by making it competitive time and cost-wise. Figure something like 3 1/2 hours door-to-door, that's faster than driving or flying. Flying is about $120. Get close to that, I think you have a viable option.
How about Indianapolis to Louisville?
will add it to the list
Ok I’m just going to have to say this. Moving a church in the Bible Belt will stop this project in its tracks. They will need another route. A quick review, Columbia, SC is the place where Sherman’s troops had a little fun thanking SC for starting the Civil War: Ie. burn Columbia. Anyone outside of a local resident going to that Church with offer less than double the value will open a can of upset. Now, I did not see the church clearly from the drawing, but many churches in the south have grave sites on their grounds. That’s a no go. Finally, churches, newspapers, and hornets have something in common: mess with one and the swam pays a visit. Amtrak does not want Government Hearings. Don’t underestimate a southern Church.
I'm not going to be building this, so the specifics are a little irrelevant, but I'll say a few things on the subject. I agree, for the most part. I think intersecting a church or any place of worship is a sensitive issue anywhere. Same with schools, parks, cemeteries, monuments, natural areas. All of those things need to be handled with care. Some may be insurmountable. Not all are. Nor can everything be or else nothing of a larger scope would ever get done. The church in question is a newer church and a nicer, newer church could be built right next door long before construction on the rail line ever started. A project this size would have plenty of money set aside for remediation of just this type.
However, this brings up a bigger issue. We're talking about a ~$40 billion project that would move millions of people every year and grow the economy of the entire project area, directly improving the lives of tens of thousands. A single church, taking some factors into consideration, should never hold up that $40 billion project.
it would have been nice to have had it going straight through Greenville I85
They studied the I-85 route and took a pass on it. The study concluded that route would be twice as much and provide worse service to the entire intended route.
I am for more trains. Even in a car-based-USA. But what I do not hear: are there people WANTING to take the train? Is the route now used for trains overcrowded? No more extra rail possible (2 > 4 tracks)? No more additional trains aviable? The planes can't cope either? If so, than a highspeed railcorridor could (!!!!) be a solution. But with these rules...:
1) at least (!) every 60 minutes a train in BOTH directions between 06.00 - 23.00 (08.00 - 22.00 at sundays is fine)
2) prices must be at least 50% lower than a plane ticket for the same route.
3) you must have the change to show up and depart (within 60 minutes) without a reservation!
4) at both ends, there must be a spot near the station to hire a bike / car to go to where you want to go. Busses get stuck in traffic and most destinations are to far away from stations to walk.
5) every station must have connections with taxis, busses or lightrail within 10 minutes walk with 'almost' the same frequency as the trains. (No need to travel 150 mph and wait a hour for a bus....)
....than, it can work. Can, not will. Maybee...
It is nice to calculate and do some map drawings. No complains about the videos, they are well set up. But it will take years to build the corridors and even than, we have to wait to see if there is demand. If the prices are affordable...
It's not really as simple as gauging demand for current rail because current rail is abysmal, so of course demand for that is low. I-85 is a very busy road route between Charlotte and Atlanta. As laid out in the video, both airports are hubs, so its advantageous to eliminate air trips between. GDOT's study of the subject indicates 14 daily trips in each direction. It is not necessary to beat airline pricing. Competitive pricing is adequate. The proof is NEC Regional and Acela service. The connections at the various stations are also covered in the video. You're also forgetting rideshare. There is no need to wait anywhere for an hour except under the most extreme circumstances.
While not exact, ridership estimates have improved a lot in the past decade. One does not need to build a thing to have some reasonable expectation of use. Another pro for is the South being a rapidly growing part of the country. Existing infrastructure will become increasing inadequate. This can already be seen in Atlanta considering a 2nd airport in the region despite Hartsfield-Jackson being ridiculously large.
Personally I’d like to see Brightline extend up to Atlanta.
Fairly likely they get to Jacksonville, so not impossible.
@@LucidStew yeah, the Jax plans are giving me hope.
Eventually all will be one rail. Point to point in one seat. thats what makes it worth the cost.
They should just elevate it over top of Highway 85.
I-85 was studied as a potential route. It was rejected on the basis of being quite a bit slower and about twice as expensive when compared to the preferred Greenfield alternative
Downtown and airport stations are both very important.
But once again, whether it is the official study or your proposition, it is still thinking of HSR as just faster regular rail.
Like a 8bit 2D game running on a shiny new cutting edge 3D gaming console...
Really, "classic / regular rail" habits should be dropped and HSR specific practices, like used in France and Spain, should be adopted and implemented.
No more "string of beads" or "serial" lines typical of regular rail but rather the adoption of the HSR specific parallel / bypass and backbone model to offer a range of services from direct non-stop & full speed all-the-way sprinter service to all-stop services, and every possible service pattern in-between.
Or high-speed detours preferred over city crossings (like making the line run near / under / through ATL *before* arriving to downtown Atlanta)...
America is the most car and plane addicted country on Earth, every single minute saved on the route helps drive up the appeal of the line and thus, its ridership.
Having to slow down to stop at secondary destinations along the way or slowing down to simply run through them without stopping *will* reduce the appeal of the line by adding minutes and exposing it to delays and disruptions.
You wouldn't put traffic lights, stoplights and intersections on an interstate freeway, right?
Same for HSL's, they are the full-speed freeways of rail that go around cities (or should anyway) and from which branches spur out to serve downtowns...
I know it may be more expensive but it will be the difference between a smashing success and a modest one.
Anything less will aim far below the real potential of this corridor.
Your point number 2 about using existing corridors / highway medians is a bit problematic : existing rail corridors and highways are rarely laid out to true HSR spec's turn radii, etc.
Building cheaper shouldn't mean building sub-par, and a HSL where the train has to constantly adjust speed is a crappy HSL.
Atlanta downtown to Charlotte downtown, while running under / through / near ATL airport, near Athens, Augusta, Columbia, and Charlotte airport can be done in 1h45, with a non-stop service if the line is traced on the parallel model and operated at 320kph / 200mph.
A more direct and straight line from Atlanta downtown to Charlotte downtown, serving ATL airport, running near Athens and serving Charlotte airport would save about 100-110km / 60-68mi or roughly 20 minutes at cruise speed.
The intermediate stops or city crossings and their speed restrictions easily add 10 to 15 minutes each to the overall travel time.
I think we've already had this conversation?
@@LucidStew Not exactly. The first time was about Chicago / Midwest and my advice to go full backbone mode with a complete bypass network. Especially as the fastest it goes, the most appeal it'll have. Which is an absolute necessity in a country so addicted to cars and planes.
Here the difference is that it is a much simpler layout, with 2 main destinations (plus their airports) where, in a sense, it is easier to implement HSR best practices directly without ruffling some feathers / city-egos.
I also forgot to mention something : a high-speed city bypass on the parallel model would probably be less expensive than highly upgrading city center access tracks to decent speeds on the serial model (which would still heavily impact travel times and tank average speed).
I must have missed it in the video but what cruise speed are you expecting on your proposition here?
Because the average speeds between city pairs you are mentioning seem overly optimistic.
The only existing HS lines / city pairs that have average speeds similar to the ones you announce are precisely ones that follow the parallel / bypass model in France and Spain, and that's for a reason.
Serial lines systematically see their average speed reduced compared to parallel ones.
@@KyrilPG Ok, so your argument is skip the 2 suburban stations and Columbia and Augusta?
My cruising speed between urban/suburban areas is 220mph. The rights of way do not support that precisely, which is why I provided a range of $33-39.6 billion on the cost. The more expensive being the 220mph version. This route really is that straight and its fairly level, too. It would only need to be below 110 for about 60 of the 314 miles, and it could be near 220 for about 180.
@@LucidStew No, I'm not advising to skip any city.
What I'm saying is that whatever the cities you want to serve, do that exclusively with branches.
Or use "on-line" out-of-town / outskirts stations where non-stop trains can run through at full speed on secluded tracks. The best is to have both a city center station and an out-of-town high-speed station.
The concept is pretty easy : take the 2 stations that are farthest away from each other. Presumably the 2 main destinations that are also acting as the extremities of the line.
From there, consider a reasonable city exit path with decent speed and then a route that allows to remain at Vmax all the way till deceleration to enter the city center of the other main destination at the opposite side of the line.
Possible destinations in-between should never impact the speed of non-stop trains.
So these possible intermediate stations are either in city center and accessed by branches that spur off the main line. Or via out-of-town / outskirts stations sitting on the line with full speed secluded tracks (without platforms), as previously mentioned.
The only city center or fairly urbanized area that a non-stop service should approach is the final destination one.
The 220mph / 355kph target is often used for project purposes then reduced. Like HS2 which was planned for 360kph and is now aiming for 320kph.
Recent high-speed lines in France and Spain are built and rated for 350/360kph but they are currently operated at 310 in Spain and 320kph in France.
From a quick measurement and calculation of roughly the corridor you proposed :
Charlotte downtown > CLT airport > Columbia > Augusta > Athens > ATL airport > Atlanta downtown.
It is perfectly doable in 1h45 with a 320kph / 200mph line, but only on the parallel / bypass model with the line staying put of all cities except Atlanta and Charlotte.
My (very) rough measurements find about 500km / 310mi for that route.
Which is almost exactly the distance between Paris and Strasbourg where TGV non-stop services take 1h45 (1h39 to 1h46 to be exact) to run the 500km / 310mi on a 320kph line that bypasses every single city in between :
Reims (on-line station "Champagne Ardennes TGV" on the Southern border of the city and a downtown station off the line that is served by a branch), the cities of Metz and Nancy (respectively 20 and 30km away from the HSL, both have city center stations served by branches and they have a quite distant regional on-line station), Sarrebrucken / Germany accessed by a spur...
I have a map overlay precisely highlighting the path of all HSR lines in France if you're interested as a visual and spacial reference. I'm still trying to find one for Spain.
To give you an idea of the speed pattern transposed from the Paris Strasbourg :
Deceleration point is about 20km / 12mi away from arrival station (Strasbourg), and the last 10km / 6mi are run at much lower speeds.
On departure from Paris : the first 15km / 9.5mi are run at slow then suburban train speed. The next 8km / 5mi are run accelerating to 220 in an urbanized environment.
From 24km / 15mi onwards is the main acceleration on the ramp towards the Eastern high-speed bypass exchange junction. Cruise speed is reached 35km / 22mi after leaving Paris downtown station.
So about 85 to 90% of the distance is run at cruise speed, the rest of the route consists of slower trunks in suburbs of the origin and destination cities.
There are cabride videos of these routes if you want, I can give you some links.
To sum it up :
220mph cruise speed is also quite optimistic.
France and Spain may push for 350-360kph / 220mi in the near future with the entry in service of new, 20 to 30% more power efficient trains but that's far from sure.
The recent lines are rated for these speeds and the rolling stock is able to, we'll see.
For now most 220mph projects have been reduced to 200mph after the initial excitement due to energy consumption and wear & tear issues.
The shorter a city pair is, the lower the average speed is too as there's not enough time spent at cruise speed to raise the average enough.
I'll try to link the videos in another comment.
@@KyrilPG I'm not sure that adds much benefit in terms of the added cost and hassle here. The interstate is there to use. It simplifies the environment review A LOT. Brightline just got a FONSI on their route up I-15 to the desert, which means they don't have to do an EIR at all now. Also a lot less land acquisition, litigation and local opposition. That held CAHSR up for years. That's the entire point of not cutting new ROW. Of course, sometimes that will be the better choice. I chose to get away from existing ROWs in my Empire Corridor analysis. But here we have very good reasons to stick to the interstate route. On the other end you're only going to pick up 15 minutes or so in return for your troubles.
Keep in mind, soonest any of this could be in service is ~20 years, so 220mph might be less unrealistic in service at that point. But let's assume 198mph and cut 10% off the top for simplicity sake. That's only an extra 12 minutes DT to DT.
Atlanta & Charlotte can have more education in the South & somewhere all around the world!🎓🎓🎓🎓🎓🎓📖📖📖📖📖📖🌍🌍🌍🌍🌍🌍
Amtrak won't be a thing in the South, that's going to be Brightline.
Could be Brightline in a lot of places before Amtrak if BLW goes well.
Not in NC. NCDOT Rail Division has a well-established relationship with Amtrak and is one of the most ambitious state rail authorities in the country. They are looking to expand the intrastate network as much as possible with 12 routes submitted to the Corridor ID program and has said that they're looking to Amtrak to be the operator of those routes if they come to fruition.
@@bistro-tat Yeah, the SE states seem to be in a different place than most of the rest of the country. They seem more committed to growing the passenger rail idea and getting connected in a meaningful way to the NEC.
Dreaming is good but we all know no high-speed rail will be completed in USA.
I see Brightline West as the most likely to be completed. Unsure where they'd go from there though.
Explain how the NEC will remain static and every project under construction or with a final RoD isn't going to happen. I'll entertain an argument for each one.
Stick around for the 2030s. You'll see alot of HSR activity. By the 2040s, granted a long way away, there will be several HSR routes and many highER speed inter-city passenger rail systems in the USA.
Pessimism isn't good, especially when incorrect
this is the first video of yours I've seen and i loved it. i think this is important work that could really help people believe that a HSR system is viable in this country. keep up the good work! 🫡
Yep, there are routes which can be done without a lot of pain if voters find the price acceptable.