Edit: well well, how the turns tabled. I was right LMAO ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxTHZZOQtzn8aiPg76I7Mj6IwyEuSYlniw To quickly clarify: I do NOT think the slip is a bad addition. However, I do consider the parry window to be too long, especially for an Act 3 enemy. (on Violent, obviously) And I've read a lot of comments already and I will concede that one of my comparisons was kinda dumb upon looking back (notably, one of the Stalker ones) so L there. Shouldn't have rushed the video but here I am being a bozo LOL. Also, the guy from Discord is someone I interact with a lot and the big funni voice is an impression of Big Man Games which we have a joke competition to see who does a BETER impression of him (which I will win hehehehehheheheheh). So yeah, just thought I'd put it out there. I would also like to take the L on saying that Roundtrip is painful as if you stick it with a magnet, all you need to do is touch the frozen rocket once and once you unfreeze it, it will instantly nail the thing in the face and instakill it. ua-cam.com/video/PmPO_HTxoHU/v-deo.html This video is meant to be me providing my feedback and discussing my feelings on the nerf in an entertaining way and not trying to police how the game is made (unlike the people who cried for a nerf). If you feel differently about this topic, that's fine, but do not force your own vision of the game onto everyone and just LOWER THE DIFFICULTY, it's that simple.
ok thank god, i was about to rant. but even i, someone who was complaining about it, thinks that the get up animation is too long. like maybe the same window as basicly any other melee attack. and you could heal off them, but the speed of the melee made it very close to impossible to get a net gain.
when fighting them for the first time I’ll admit i could see how much of a step-up they were in difficulty compared to other enemies but after fighting them in the sandbox to figure out what their moves were i realized they weren’t too bad. I assumed the purpose of them was to be a counter to the Guttermen, who were best fought up close with the KB or with normal parries so they stop tracking. When the dev includes a punch like that, it is NOT an enemy you’re meant to heal from, thus making them better to be fought at midrange or long distance. After learning this, they didn’t become too bad, but tbf i have 250 hours in this game, so less experienced players i could see struggling
i think that the guttertank should slip only if you ground slam him when he does his melee attack, you would still need to have good timing and use one bar of stamina and it would give more use to the ground slam, also the "parry" window should definetly be decreased. it also looks really goofy to see a war machine that can hold a giant rocket launcher and was designed for war cant even balance its own weight, if they slip everytime they try to punch it wouldnt really make sense why they would keep doing that exact same mistake over and over again
@@rafaelflores448 tbf you need to remember it's punch was designed to destroy Guttermen instantly (hell, you can even see it if you make them fight each other where the Guttertank OHKO it in one punch), so it doing a huge ass punch and losing balance after no hitting anything makes sense since it wasn't intended to handle fast machines like V1
Especially because up until this point, Ultrakill has drilled it into us that rocket launchers are for mid-range, and point blank rocket combat gets you killed. And then Guttertanks decided to put melee gas in the rocket launcher and rocket fuel in their fists.
the reason people have not cried out that the stalker breaks the ultrakill game loop would be because its more of a support enemy, similar to the idol, its not actively hunting you down
Stalker can't even actively damage you. To heal you need to close in fisticuffs range with dangerous(even if you are gaming journalist) enemy The logic is consistent
@@apollyon6855not until he got everything before it, which, if you are good enough, will not happen. an exaple of this is the first wave of the last arena room, the last one standing will prolly be the ferry man, which you can bait away from the stalker, making him chase the ferry man and not you.
The issue with the Guttertank is not that they are overpowered, but rather that their design is completely misleading. The main point of them is that they keep you away from them, but are also the rocketeer enemy that attacks in a method that screams "I like mid-range combat." Additionally: the instakill is something that a new player would never think to try when playing the main campaign without someone else telling them to. The Guttertanks take very little damage from explosives, so why would a player think to send the enemy's rocket right back at them via rocket riding without being told about that effect? The Guttertanks were never overpowered, but they are designed in a way that makes them feel clunky and counter-intuitive to learn. Hakita could've at least hinted at their brute strength in melee combat with a more obviously dangerous melee weapon or a more aggressive-looking design.
@@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384 Agreed. The red on its body helps to make it stand out as a danger, but it looks more like a "look at my big fucking rocket launcher" danger right now.
WAIT YOU CAN SURF THEIR ROCKETS BACK How the hell someone would have ever understood this thing. I was going insane trying to fight them in middle range combat trowing everything at them since the level was too dark to make me see the parry window.
@@nuze4047 I shouldn't have to backtrack the entire level to go to the terminal and read the logs for one normal enemy, especially when the logs were incredibly deceptive for the pre-nerf Guttertanks. The only way you could realistically get healing from them at close range pre-nerf was to spend a lot of stamina, which was the big issue with their melee. Every other enemy does a good job telling you exactly what you need to know about them mid-level, including the other new enemy of that level.
I think my main problem with it was that the terminal said to "bait out a punch before closing the gap", but it would immediately punch again after. a delay between punches wouldve probably been the best option because a stagger seems excessive
i prefer the stumble after a punch, they're big, they're heavy, and if they miss they overextend and trip, simple and effective, i like it however they're also super easy to get a free parry off of now and that parry opportunity lasts for a little too long perhaps a change to their get up to make them quickly recover would be better? or at least a good change to make them a bit harder again but keep them balanced the parry window could be shortened as well, at the very least, sort of like how sisyphus has a lingering animation on his stop attack, but you can't parry him anymore unless it's during the stomp it would fit pretty well with the guttertanks to have the stumble be a bit faster, but the parry is either gone, or heavily shortened to be only during the end of their attack meaning you need to be fast, or out of the way and just start dealing damage they should keep the unparryable hitbox however during the wind up and halfway through the swing
Half a second party window would be great as it's not to long and also means the guttertank can't just constantly chain punches, but whatever hakita does is fine and I support.
maybe a delay but like… less? the delay is sooo long it feels like it should be for lenient difficulty, violence should have no stagger but the followup punch is parryable
Honestly, the thing about Guttertanks is that their behavior is in this uncanny valley of sorts. Or, rather, that they’re generalists in a game with specialist enemies. Their rockets behave just strangely enough that it makes it difficult to wrap your head around. Their punch *feels* like it should be parriable, but isn’t. Their stagger is fine, but with the ‘parry’ involved, it feels a little janky to try and get to them before they get back up and smite you. Leading up to this is how Ultrakill has teached you to deal with enemies. They’ve got set patterns, so the problem is when there’s an extreme load of them or there are enemies whose behavior patterns patch up their weaknesses. The Guttertank essentially doesn’t have any hard weaknesses, and the ones that are present are easily covered up by almost any non-fodder enemy. Even the ones that CAN’T be covered up by enemy load are hard to exploit in practice. It’s hard to hit a Guttertank with their mines when they’re launching anti-matter missiles at you. It’s hard to exploit their stagger when you’re getting focused down by other enemies. That’s why the Guttertank feels so sucky (or boring, if you play _roughly_ how you should against them) to fight against. They can do too much, and their weaknesses are either too hard to exploit or get covered by other enemies so easily. They’re a jack of all trades, except they’re the master of nearly all of them. Range, Splash Damage, Melee, Support, Tanky, Relatively Fast, they can just do too much.
Probably just as well they have less health than a swordsmachine in that regard. I think the biggest relief you can add to an annoying enemy is to make it at least a bit squishy.
I think the parry window is THAT big so that the players won't be scared to spend all of their dashes to return to slipped guttertank after dodging and parry it and refuel their stamina.
i think the gutter tank needed a nerf for the sake of the next planned difficulties consistency, since the trend is to remove a weakness or add a new mechanic altogether (besides making them faster) so I'd say the guttertank currently for violent difficulty is perfectly fine post nerf, and with the next planned difficulties it will prob be back to being like pre nerf but faster or with another extra attack or being enraged somehow.
absolutely. all enemies have some sort of huge weak point that can be exploited but you need to time manage when multiple of them (and of various types) are in the level. the main point is that for in-game progression the guttertank is a HUGE difficulty spike as an enemy. i had no problem against cerberi in limbo, and thought that it was a great addition. and after all, the update just came out, it was a matter of time until the community learnt about how to rid em off. the actual issue was that it was just too much of a first impression tbh
you can parry guttertanks while they're still basically on the ground flat on their face it's too easy of a parry instead, remove the parry window and speed up their get up animation a bit, maybe make the parry window on the end of their punch as they fall, but they should absolutely keep the unparryable hitbox during the wind up and maybe about halfway through the attack it can switch to a very brief parry and then if you don't parry them, they stumble, fall, and quickly get back up, during which you can't still parry them and can only use it as a chance to deal damage or just, blitz them down with alt nail gun because saw blades are op as shit against guttertanks and even guttertank gutterman combos
@@bullcheese2236 that sounds extremely cool, like imagine having a green flash or something indicating you to ground pound something, similar to how you can paryr the dead guttermen
The gutter man wasn’t difficult, it was just extremely annoying to fight as a non-professional player. It wasn’t fun. people in ultrakill like getting close to enemies, and like options for attaching enemies close and far away. The guttertank, pre patch, was exclusively damageable from a distance. I think that giving it a parry window and pretty much nothing else was a good idea. The parry window should definitely be smaller, but the existence of a parry window is ultimately a very positive addition. As someone who’s put a lot of time into the game, but not too much (p-ranked everything except p-2 on violent) you are not the average player. most ultrakill players don’t even know about the yellow flash indicating a parry, or think to read the terminals. You are better than the average ultrakill player. Your movement demonstrates that. You mention listening to their beeps to understand their attacks. I’ve beaten everything except for p-2 without listening to mindflayers, ever. Mindflayers are not a difficult enemy to me. i don’t know how to instakill them, it’s just that my particular movement style counters their attacks easily. Your style is particularly suited to avoiding guttertanks. They are more difficult to you than they are to other players. The guttertank definitely did need a nerf- a person who is a causal player who will play through violence once. they will never experiment, because the game isn’t important to them. For a casual player playing through the game once, even on violent, the guttertank will be a difficult enemy. Lack of parry or any short-distance weakness at all makes the enemy seem unfair. The guttertank is still a difficult enemy, even with the nerf, but the nerf is just enough that casual players are able to get through. At least, that’s my take.
As a casual player (same progression as you, 50 hrs in game) who wholeheartedly agrees with you, I want to add my 2 cents on top, so here goes: On top of everything you said, one of the things that add a lot to the game in my opinion are parries. Parries act as a fun way to both damage enemies and recover health, they reward good play and learning attack patterns while adding a little risk to the players going for them. If I'm not misremembering it, all enemies have either a parry or an obvious window in which they can be countered. Pre-nerf, the guttertank didn't have either. This made them unfun from my perspective. Yes, I could stay in mid-range and spam them with attacks, or go in n out quickly with 2 dashes, but that's not what makes ultrakill fun. What is fun is diving in the middle of a swarm of enemies and riskily taking them all out. What is fun is duking it out with Minos prime, punch by punch, parry by parry, hit by hit. What isn't fun is having a bullet sponge( I know it isn't that much, it just feels a lot longer when playing) which I have to take out in mid-range. The parry rectifies this by both adding a period of time in which the guttertank is essentially stunned and adding a parry to it. Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that it was unfair, hell, even in the video, Batakanta stated that you could dodge all its' attacks by walking and that's true, it wasn't difficult to kill by any means. I didn't know about the beeps part before this video, but even so, the enemy just wasn't as engaging as the others, and lacked a core aspect present in all other enemies. Though I must say, while the stumble delay is great and allows easier kills on priority targets, the window for the parry may be a little too large. (Also I must add that I thought mine parries giving health was a post nerf thing, I didn't get any health back when I initially tried parrying them, maybe that was a bug..? Did it exist before nerf?)
@@PlatinumTuna You took the words right out of my mouth. I full on suck at Ultrakill, haven't even unlocked P-1, but I love the game, so here's my thoughts: I didn't like fighting pre-patch Guttertank. I found it really hard to kill. That's fine btw, the enemies should be difficult to fight. But Guttertank's charge attack always fucked me up, because (to me) it came out so fast that I couldn't get out of the way fast enough. If it had been parriable or if it had had the stumble if it missed, then it would have been fine. Having both is overkill
Streetcleaners I believe are the only enemy you physically can't parry in any way? Might be something else but yeah, as far as I remember. But even then, they're easy to kill despite being dangerous. Guttertank just felt like a wall of health that I was laying in to and not doing much else. I could kill them with some difficulty but it honestly more felt like an enemy I just threw everything at solely to get rid of, unlike other enemies where it was fun to fight them. I have also p-ranked everything but p-2 and whenever I fought the guttertank after my first encounter it was just "oh boy here we go again" The parry window it has now is too long but least it feels like a reasonable challenge, and not "can you just die already" which alone I can parry easily but in a group fight it's more of a challenge due to everything else trying to kill me. I'm not the best at the game. I can't do many of the rocket based tech's (I just don't like the rocket launcher enough to use it) But I'm decent at railcoining core nuking etc. But yeah, guttertank just didn't feel the most fun to fight even by just trying to avoid damage, since if I did ever get hit dodging the punch to get close to him just felt annoying to attempt. And gotta say, his punch range is Pretty long
Maybe a casual players who playh through the game once isn't even the target demographic of the game in the first place (*Cough, level ranks and challanges and secrets, even Prime Sanctums*), let alone should be playing on violent difficulty.
@@illegal7.62rounds5 even though all of that content is doable for casual players on violent difficulty? Might be hell to p rank p-2 but the rest is doable. Seriously this is a really bad take since the game is perfectly fine with casual players.
Most enemies in Ultrakill can be divided into two groups: those that are a pain when ignored, like Virtues, Mindflayers, Stalkers and Filth; and those that are a pain when confronted, like Cerberi, Maurices, Hideous Masses and Mannequins. The Guttertank has slow movement speed, a big, slow, long-range attack and a long-lasting hazard, all properties of a high-priority enemy that is a pain when ignored. This is further proven by having its weakenesses all focusing on punishing it for a mistake (like firing rockets when magneted) and not slipping through its attacks (like jumping over Cerberus’ shockwave). Except for one. The Guttertank’s punch *can* be dodged easily, but the only course of action after that is falling back and engaging another enemy, lest you get punched again or rocketed in the face (magnets are only effective when you’re far from the Guttertank, another part of the Guttertank’s role confusion). For the difficulty argument, I have a simple answer. Make the Guttertanks harder at range. As you can probably tell, I like the nerf they added (the stun and parry window should be smaller tho), but what I don’t like is how EASY they are to shut down. As you said, just put a magnet on them. What I think they should do? Make rockets not attracted to magnets stuck to the Guttertank shooting them, and less attracted to magnets in general. Mines, too, are too slow, even on Violent difficulty. I think they should play out their animation faster, and only be parriable near the peak of their jump. Lastly, health. GUTTERTANKS ARE NOT A FRAGILE ENEMY. You said they have even less health than Swordsmachine, who is not tanky, but Swordsmachine is only so tankyn’t because it gets stunned for ages and for whatever reason. This is also a good reason to add a stun to Guttertanks, since close-range encounters with Guttertanks are similar to close-range encounters with Swordsmachines on radiant steroids. You also said they only have a bit more HP than Cerberi, aka the closest thing in Ultrakill to a tank before Layer 7. You know how, after dashing, Cerberi can act almost immediately? Kinda reminds you of the pre-nerf Guttertank, right? That’s the problem. Guttertanks are not the kind of enemy that you would prefer avoiding if it wasn’t so hard. And if they were, it would be the rockets that would need to get toned down. In conclusion, Guttertanks are a one-machine army that you can’t cripple like you can a normal army.
Ultrakill players when a small quality of life adjustment is added to the game and makes it slightly easier: As a fist main this is the greatest thing ever added to the game
8:32 The guttertank's instantkill isn't even that hard. > Magnet on guttertank > Freeze one of its rockets > Jump on frozen rocket then jump off > Unfreeze > +Round trip You just need to time it and get a safe rocket to ride on, train in the sandbox. Bring back overcharged rockets with MaliRailcannon nukes, it was hella fun :(
The giga nukes were kinda overpowered ngl. Nuking is already a large part of cybergrind and using that massive nuke didn't feel nearly as good or rewarding as hitting a flying core eject while going mach 5
@@HoloTheDrunk How about making the freezecharge delay longer? That way, you'll have to sacrifice more time to do a meganuke. This will make player have to decide either a meganuke, which is higher risk since you have to set it up first but better reward, or an instant nuke that have less risk and reward than a meganuke.
I struggled with the Guttertank at first because I hadn't played Ultrakill in like a month or two, but after I got adjusted it was actually quite similar to the Gutterman in difficulty, in fact it's super easy to dodge it, you have 12 frames of invincibility when you dash, you can literally dash through it's punch and just parry it's landmine to regain that lost stamina, and not to mention you're zipping around anyways
me too man, it was more of a wake up call than anything cuz i really wasn't prepared. but guess what? you can adapt easily, so yeah i don't really understand what the fuss is all about.
I don’t know entirely given I’m still a very new Ultrakill player, but can’t you also use magnets to attract gutter tank rockets? I know magnets break from 3 rockets, but still.
@@not-him-I-swear Indeed they do, if you have a hard time with the rockets, use magnets, hard time with the punches? get far away, trouble with health? search for other enemies
I feel the oddest thing about them was that they lead their melee shots so that if you're moving at high speed they'll throw their punch early, but unlike the Gutterman you can't parry said punch as it comes at you. This was the main reason I felt annoyed in getting close, but I now take care when I get closer and also... avoid whiplashing lol.
I think it should go back to the original punch, but give it a stict parry window like the leviathan's bite. Maybe on like standard and harmless and stuff make it punch a little slower, but on violent it should be able to combo you if you aren't pay attention.
@@daktotathecolossus7404 no, if you dodge the punch, they get stunned and you can parry the stun, tho more easier, they also could have instead of adding parry, made it so that the punch have cooldown, like after 1 punch, it can do another for 1 sec or 2, but i think that'll be something in higher difficulties
The Leviathan parry is actually unintentional, and Hakita decided it was too fast to remove. Once he found out people *could* get it, it was just left in because if you are actually capable of doing it, might as well be allowed to.
the problem with pre-patch guttertank is that you could be low hp from other enemies going into a guttertank encounter and then try to heal off them but get one shot into oblivion. Having the parry window allows you to heal off the guttertank unlike before. About the mines, the guttertank would rarely stray far enough from the mine for you to safely parry it before you inevitably killed it anyway. Also I’ve personally have just sworn off the screwdriver. Also with the point about lethal damge, i don’t think it’s usually worth using a railcannon shot on a guttertank, especially since it has relatively low hp compared to other enemies like the swordsmachine or cerberi. You’re better off using a cannonball or a charged slab piercer shot because those still deal good damage relative to the guttertank’s hp at lower cost.
Well if you think about it, we're playing the game in medium level of difficulty (it can be somewhat forgiving in some things) so we don't know how the game will be in higher difficulty. I hope guttertanks and some other enemies wont be parryable in UKMD or Brutal difficulties
I think making parrying more difficult instead of outright not allowing it to happen would be more fun, so you're still incentivized to take the risk but you're more likely to get obliterated
I think if the parry window was lower, the nerf would be perfect. That would make it so playing against Guttertanks isn't as boring as pre-nerf (At least I thought they were boring) but also not as pathetically easy as now.
Honestly the way the guttertank’s rockets work makes it much similar to an enraged virtue, despite the fact that it has almost no similarities outside of that.
I never got to fight the Guttertank before the nerf. Honestly, I find a bit of charm with the punch stagger that the Guttertank has, but I only found out the tech you mentioned while experimenting in sandbox. I missed out on being creative with fighting a Guttertank because the nerf. I remember killing a good number of them by just walking backwards and giving them the feedbacker. It's one thing to make an enemy more accessible to deal with, but it's a greater experience to let a player experiment. I think people forget the value from just testing out things.
Most Ultrakill enemies aren't really that scary to stand next to, so I don't really mind Guttertanks changing up the pace in this way. It even made me start using the cannon ball a bit more. What probably makes them seem so beefy to people at first is them not being used to dodging the tank's attacks, so they're evading more and shooting less. At least that's how it was for me at first.
i mean in my opinion, the slip is great, even if it wasnt parriable it would still make it more fun to fight against, because the rockets werent the problem, the non stop punching without punishment was the annoying bit, otherwise his design was fine, and it was kinda justifiable seeing how the gutterman was a joke
Fully agree. Still wouldn’t remove the slip or make it shorter. It’s just so funny seeing this giant mech fall down like a 5 year old and then slowly recover.
I also didn't have that many problems with the guttertank in terms of difficulty but I feel like you and a lot of other ultrakill players are ignoring how most people who are going into violence for the first time aren't going to know most ultrakill tech. Heck I didn't even know about projectile boosting until after I had beaten the game blind and went online. Like calling swordsmachine an easy enemy makes sense for someone whos played cybergrind and is fully knowledgeable about how to deal with them but remember how swordsmachine was first introduced as a regular enemy in 6-1 only 3 levels before the guttertank is introduced. Especially since guttertank was introduced alongside the gutterman which already forces the player to adjust their playstyle so making the guttertank a little easier to manage was a welcome addition in my opinion. But I also agree that the guttertanks stun lasts for a little to long and if I were hakita I would've shortened it while also making round trip easier to preform for more experienced players.
Tbh I didn't even knew how his attack works exactly until I looked at the terminal entry after beating the entire layer. I just kept my distance and it worked.
To me they weren't very difficult but they were very annoying. The area around them almost felt like a deadzone of where you can and can't go and when there was more than 1 of them it got very annoying getting close to enemies that were near them. This is a good change but too much of a nerf
My main issue with the Gutter Tank is just that the rocket launcher enemy shouldn't be its most deadly at close range, especially since that's where the gutterman is most deadly as well. It just feels so counterintuitive for me personally
The problem with guttertanks pre-nerf was that they were unfun, unlike other enemies that have tech. Maurice has chargeback Cerberus has the cannonball thing Mannequin has airshots Gutterman has guard break Almost all other non-boss enemies have some strats and vulnerabilities that are specific to them. On top of that, most enemies have parriable attacks. All of that made ultrakill combat work, whenever you encounter an enemy, you can picture in your head multiple ways of killing it in rather effective, fun and stylish ways. When I personally see a Maurice I see multiple approaches I can take: Parry the projectile Shotgun-parry the beam Sharpshooter instakill Piercer instakill Whiplash shotgun swap The shotgun + red arm thing Multiple ways of doing a chargeback On the other hand, when I see a prenerf guttertank I know that I can: Parry it's landmine into it, which deals minimal damage, and just isn't worth the time it takes and the risk of getting meleed, cuz you would be leaving your self vulnerable right next to a guttertank to do that. Do the funny rocket instakill, which is pretty stylish and rewarding, but it's not super consistent, at least for me, because the rocket might just explode when you try to ride it for no reason, and if it doesn't, you are still leaving yourself vulnerable for more than enough time to get meleed, and all of that applies to a single guttertank, if it's not alone and there are other enemies, especially other guttertanks, then you can just basically forget about this strat, as it leaves you too vulnerable for too long. And that leaves us with only one consistent enough strat: just damage sponge it with all you have. This enemy just felt unfun and not flexible, most of the time it acted as a damage sponge with a relatively big healthpool, that can also rip your soul out with a superfast superpowerfull superlongranged punch, and you could do absolutely nothing but cry about it. This doesn't seem much ultrakill to me. But at least now, after it was nerfed you can whiff from that punch and then punish it, now this enemy has some more interaction with the player, and it feels more engaging and manageable, and less annoying and out of control
I already commented this on another video, but I do think there is some ways to keep the stumble, but make it less easy. - Lower the damage parrying does. For me, I only ever parry for style, HP, and to avoid grey HP, not really for damage. - Make them get up faster, but keep the parry. It would make it harder and feel SUPER GOOD to get one on them. - On the 2 unreleased difficulties, (Maybe even an update to Violent) make them to where they don't stumble. - Maybe they +ENRAGE when parried, encouraging people to try to avoid that if they want an easier fight.
The only reason Guttertanks were seen as overpowered was because: 1) Their counterpart, Gutterman is complete joke on the release 2) 7-2, 7-3 and 7-4 where you fight Guttertanks you mostly fight them in groups of 2-4 and/or with many smaller enemies supporting them. Yes, they are not as hard as Mindflyers, but you dont see 2-4 mindflyers outside of really high levels of cybergrind. The most you see is two Mindflyers in P-2 which is supposed to be brutal gauntlet most likely harder then any other level in the base game. The fact that right after you fight the first Guttertank you immediately have to fight 2 more in the same small room and then later fight 4 in the archives sort of implies despite its size its supposed to be type of enemy that you will fight in bulk. 3) Cerberus while being hard to parry and being one of the tankiest enemies is also one of the slowest if not the slowest, doing only short easy to dodge dashes, very slow walk and then throwing bomb every 10 or so seconds. Fighting even 6 of them is more manageable then just 3 Guttertanks just because of how slow they are and how easy it is to avoid their attacks as long as you have enough room. 4) The nerf mainly works if you fight Guttertank 1v1, which was not that big of a problem in the first place. If there are two Guttertanks near eachother they can hit you while the other one is staggered.
before the nerf: i come closer to a guttertank, he punch me, i try again, it punches me until i die because i'm unable to heal if i can't come closer to get the blood, also feels like if the guttertank has too many health after the nerf: i avoid the punch, i parry him or i do railcoining to kill him in just 1 shot, also now i had the chance to heal now. the nerf was a good idea, it's more easy and fun to kill him.
thats literally what i said. "i avoid the punch, i parry him or i ralcoin him until he dies." the small window that now the guttertank gives you for avoiding the punch is just perfect.
The nerf is kinda nice, I just think the wake up time on the guttertank slip should be sped up. It feels a little *too* free to just dash back and nearly instant-kill the guttertank.
(Haven't finished the video, might edit my comment if I change my opnion on the video) For context, I have 33 hours of gameplay, have P-ranked act 1 and 2, including P-1(This before the Violence update), and have already P-ranked 7-1,7-2 and 7-4. When it came to 7-2, I thought the Gutterman was extremely parry focused, so, when Guttertanks were revealed I thought the same of them, since they shot rockets, what do they do? Punch you in the face with almost 0 delay in between punches, not only that but when I first saw them their range seemed to go way further than it should be, but it was because they pull back before punching you + problems with my 130 fov. The last room was even worse, because I didn't know how to dodge their rockets yet so it was a nightmare. 7-3 was fine in terms of the Guttertanks since I was just running around avoiding the blood mannequins (That last room lags me to all hell). 7-4 I had already understood how to fight them a bit. And when it came to replaying the levels I started understanding how actually easy they are, just running around them, shooting with revolvers or projectile boosts did it for me, putting saw blades or nails on them to make it easier sometimes. The "Cybergrind thought" behind balancing Guttertanks is wrong, since in the end, you're not supposed to go p-ranking every single level and them coming to violence, you're not supposed to even be doing cybergrind by that point, it's from Act , Act 2 and Act 3, this is the way Hakita intended, so new players can get BRUTALLY mauled by Guttertanks. Since the introduction of Mannequins and Guttermen I thought Layer 7 would be parry focused, so when you have an enemy you can't parry it really breaks the flow of everything, but adding a challenge of taking care of not only the projectiles hurling towards you, but which enemies are near you to not get punched into orbit is quite a nice addition. The change was nice, but the parry window is so large it doesn't make sense, so is the animation, they should make them unparriable BUT still let them get staggered for a quick second to not make new players get destroyed, since 6-1 difficulty is nearly NOTHING compared to layer 7 difficulty, it's not even that I struggled with them after getting used to them pre-patch, I don't even bait his punches most of the time and just don't get hit enough to need to heal from a Guttertank, but do you think a fresh out, maybe 5-10 hours player will know how to fight it easily? No, probably not. TLDR: New players will think Layer 7 is about parries, Guttertanks with almost 0 delay between unparriable punches is brutal for them compared to 6-1 difficulty. The patch is not good for Guttertanks, make them only get staggered for a quick second and not parriable. (Coming from a not so experienced player that has not done Cyber Grind or P-2 P-rank, kind of the way Hakita intends for new players to play. And yes I had a bit of a skill issue when they were introduced.)
I agree that the nerf was a bit much since the reason the guttertank is so useless this patch is because the bug that made its punch come out faster also got patched so it is infinitely easier to not be hit by it. Also fyi, some clips I've seen of people getting nuked by guttertanks had them die to charged rockets because the blast radius on them was too high. Overall, the problem you feel isn't the new parry window (that is barely usefull in combat anyways lmao) but the fact that the enemy was bugged (I'm quoting hakita on this, don't ask me what was causing it) and made it abnormally harder than it should have been.
when i first fought guttertank, I was like "man this guy's gonna be everywhere, and he is difficult!" later i was like "oh this guy's actually pretty easy, just stay away from him so he cant punch me!" post-nerf i was like "haha stupid funny red man trips over free health" edit: i just wanted to add; i think the guttertanks being difficult is much more fun than a guttertank where you can get lots of parries by dashing in and out of its melee range.
i think the way guttertants fall is funny so i dont care about how "balanced" it is. But i can certainly say that v14a guttertanks is a bad game design. Pretty much everything in ultrakill insensitiveses aggression and playing as actively as you can. Every enemy there is provides extra opportunities in the form of parries or convenient attack windows if you play up close. Every enemy except guttertank. Sure dodging the fist once is easy enough after you learn the timing. What is your reward besides not taking any damage? Maybe after punching once gtank starts doing other atrack that allows you to pour some easy dmg? No it starts doing same attack almost immediately after the the first one is over. And no its not the combo attack that gives you a parry opportunity in the end, its just the same giant range very quick windup attack. So you either slide away or waste another dash charge in shame. You CAN heal of gtank, the question is why bother when doing it off every other enemy is so much less hustle. I wont argue that gtanks are hard to kill, they are not, but you do that by constantly keeping your distance from them, unlike almost with every enemy after you are familiar with them. I get in the face of Maurice, i grapple to mindflayers, i parry swordmashines and ferryman in cybergind. And with guttertanks i keep my social distance cause they are assholes that break the rules of the game. Tldr: Guttertanks were not superstrong, but their design was anti-Ultrakill.
refering to the video you respond to a bunch of takes that i dont agree with in the first place. I argue specifically about his only melee attack. Also 5:00 Hakita literally implemented a change to the enemy, noone held him hostage and he never compromised his vision about the game design because ppl cried about difficulty (whiplash nerf) ever. doesnt THAT tell that some change was justified?
initially i thought they needed a nerf, then i realised they become trivial by just not going near them, so i just didnt, and had barely any problems with them outside of cramped areas from then on
When Violence first released, my big problem was just the fact that the Guttertank melee had the same telegraph window as a sentry, with no cooldown inbetween and a much larger range. While I definitely liked the nerf (especially since it means you can melee only the Guttertank now like pretty much every other enemy), the sheer size of the parry window makes dealing with Guttertanks almost as braindead as the Minos Prime fight.
@@daktotathecolossus7404 I said it because Minos is unfortunately like, extremely trivial if you know his attacks. He goes from the second hardest boss in the game to like, an absolute pushover after you've fought him like twice. Hell, I struggle with Gabriel more than Minos, ironically.
The pre patch guttertank terminal text on strategy still had the text to "bait a punch before closing the gap." I got baited by the description into another punch since the prepatch punch cooldown is non existant on violent, which was fine because like you said there are many ways to dealt with guttertanks, in my case I found railcoining and saw trapping before they come out of the capsule my goto ways to dealt with them. But that text made me believe that this change was either intended to be in the released in the first place. That said I also believe that postpatch guttertank stagger is too long, it doesn't feel like violent at all.
You making a saw trap at the beginning instead of attaching it to a Guttertank and making a freeze frame rocket trap hurt me to watch. I know it's a common-knowledge strat nowadays but I really did think of that strat myself at the time. I think Guttermen need a buff too, most when specifically they're alone, the only room that ever brought me trouble in relation to Guttermen in is the final 7-2 room when there were three of them.
I barely notice a difference between pre-nerf and post-nerf guttertank, the Guttertank feels like a harder cerberus and a B-Side gutterman imo. The only guttertank I had a problem with in the entire game was the one on the 7-4 catwalk.
I did not think it would happen, but here we are Player with skill of an invertebrate telling me that I have a skill issue because I notice that one enemy is way stronger than the other ones and attempts into comedy by stretching vowels Does not know that weakness is a concrete term that means negative resistance to some type of damage And in general tries to tell me that my opinion (that is 75% reciting Hakita) the man itself would consider dumb I do think that they just need 30 health, which would allow to get 2 double parries on one tank
my main problem with the guttertanks is how often they spawn and how many of them show up at once. It seems like every time you see one, there's another 1-2 around him.
If Guttertank has a million fans, then I am one of them. If Guttertank has ten fans, then I am one of them. If Guttertank has only one fan then that is me. If Guttertank has no fans, then that means I am no longer on Earth. If the world is against Guttertank, then I am against the world.
it probably wasn't their purpose of being annoying otherwise hakita would't have nerfed them- tho i do need to clarify that i sucked against them in pre patch that was most likely due to just their punching speed (which was like twice as fast as you'd expecrt them to) i think the slip makes it more fun to deal with, even tho it is the biggest parry window in the game [i believe] (so it could be shortened) i think the nerf was needed but not necessarily to that extend still makes the levels more fun xd
I think a cool design for the gutter tank would almost be the opposite of the gutterman, this is just my opinion, but could you imagine if up-close his punch couldn’t miss, was insta-kill, and was un-parriable but intern you could both ride and party his rockets back at him? Just a thought.
for the last time: guttertank pre-nerf was not HARD, it was not UNFAIR, it was ANNOYING. all that the "nerf" did was make successfully dodging the punch more rewarding, and that is a GREAT change because the punch wasn't dangerous or anything before, it was just extremely annoying. it was barely even a punch, it was essentially just a glorified bitch-slap. if i wanted to simply kill the guttertank, i'd projectile boost it, or maybe i'd set up a saw trap, or perhaps i'd ultraricoshot it to death immediately, or maybe i'd activate freezeframe and whiplash their rockets into them when they fired, or (here's the kicker) i could completely trivialize it by sticking magnets into it, then keeping my distance and freezing and unfreezing rockets immediately when they fire them, which not only removes their ability to attack me but also causes them to literally kill themselves for me with little to no input. the guttertanks were NOT difficult at all to kill. there's a reason why hakita "nerfed" their punch and only their punch. it's because they were extremely annoying and literally IMPOSSIBLE to heal off of. it was so bad that adding OTHER enemies to a room with guttertanks actually makes the room EASIER because now you have something to heal from. the terminal itself literally tells you to try and bait a guttertank punch so you can get up close to it, so i tried to do that with a pre-nerf guttertank. "great! i dodged the punch! now i can-" and then the guttertank just punches AGAIN because there was NO COOLDOWN between punches. you could not, and i repeat, COULD NOT get close to the guttertank. you always got bitch-slapped away. and that made it so, so annoying to fight. oooookay now to respond to some of YOUR points: "the rockets are super easy to dodge! you can dodge it by walking!" the guttertank doesn't exist in a vacuum, you're not gonna be fighting it in a completely flat and open space with no other enemies in it. also, the rocket attacks aren't the problem, and they never were. nobody is complaining about the rockets. matter of fact, they went completely unchanged since the guttertanks were added. the rockets are the acceptable part of the guttertank. try dodging the punch by walking, i dare you. "cerberus had no weaknesses pre-act 2 and has more health than the guttertank and nobody complained about it!" maybe it's because it's physically possible to get close to the cerberus and heal from it and attack it with weapons like the shotgun and nailgun effectively. you can't say the same for the guttertank. "you can't heal from the stalker, but nobody calls it a bullshit enemy!" that's because the stalker is a SUPPORT ENEMY that has NO DIRECT ATTACKS towards the player and has VERY LITTLE HEALTH being killed with ONE OR TWO PROJECTILE BOOSTS and LITERALLY KILLS ITSELF if left alone. you can't compare apples to rotisserie chickens, for fucks sake. "just use screwdriver" your weapons and loadout should be personalized and up to the player, no weapons should be required to deal with an enemy "you can get close to it when it's firing!" ah yes let me WAIT for the enemy to do something so i can heal let me BE PATIENT in a fast-paced action shooter let me STAND BY for a little bit so i can wait for a short window of time where the game allows me to play of course yes this is logical game design "people who say guttertank goes against the game's design philosophy know nothing about game design, hakita said so!!" hakita was quite literally the person who nerfed the guttertank what kind of argument is this "bro you're literally just like mayo!!! you're like the doodoo poopoo bad game critic!!! that's literally you rn!!!" this is redditor portray-you-as-the-soyjak-and-me-as-the-chad behavior "there's counterplay to the guttertank you're just bad!" yeah, there is counterplay. nobody ever said they were unkillable. you can pro-boost it, sawtrap it, coin it, whiplash its rockets, and magnet it to turn its rockets against it. the entire point of the debate is that the punch (which if dodged was just performed again) was annoying and made the guttertank an unenjoyable enemy because it disabled or at least limited most aggressive play and promoted pelting it with cheap tactics from afar. a lot of the cool things you can do on enemies in this game kind of require you to be at least a medium distance from the enemy, and the guttertank's punch (which has a pretty infuriating range) disables that. "if you can't deal with it, that's your problem! skill issue" yeah i completely agree. if you can't deal with an enemy, it doesn't automatically mean it sucks. sometimes you just need to practice. here's the thing: the guttertanks were 100% deal-with-able. they are just annoying to do so with, because they had almost no healing windows and zero parryable attacks pre-patch, so any mistakes were permanent until you found another enemy to heal from. "maybe the whole point is that it's annoying!!" what????? do you... not know what video games are for????? video games are for having fun and enjoying them, why the fuck would you have an enemy whose entire purpose was to be annoying???????? anyways for the rest of the video you're just reading someone's messages in a caveman voice to demoralize them which i am just going to skip over because that is just plain bad discourse (and also because the person you're talking with actually sucks at making points). also, you say you're explaining to them how guttertanks are okay, but you don't elaborate on your points at all in the messages???? some of them are literally just one word like "mines" and you provided zero elaboration, i got no idea how you think you won that argument with whoever that was now, i'm not 101% for the nerf. i will agree with you on one thing, the slip does last way too long and makes it way too easy, especially with it being parryable. i think the parry window is way too long and was rather unnecessary. just making the cooldown between punches slightly longer so you could get one shotgun-blast in there without getting falcon-pawnched would've been enough. i'll agree with you on the fact that it got overnerfed a bit. did i just write an entire essay because i'm mad? yeah but you made a 17 and a half minute video so i think we're even tl;dr guttertank and its rockets are easy to deal with, yes, but the punch was annoying as balls because it could not be dodged for more than a split second, but i'll admit it did get a little overnerfed.
Guttertanks are one of those enemies you really can’t turn your brain off and pro-boost spam against them and ect. There’s many ways to kill them; just don’t get punched (at all).
my main issue with the guttertank is that it dosent communicate its health. guttermen lose their shields, malicious faces and cerberuses crack, snipers get knocked back etc. but i could load an entire heatsink into the guttertank and have no idea how effective it was
2:53 I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA (this is a joke obviusly)
watching this guy get kicked by sentry and slapped by guttertank repeatedly while he rants, cracks his voice, and pops his mic is very entertaining some real sammyclassicsonicfan energy
I think the confusion with them arrived on how we never tend to deal with tanks from long range and instead just shotgun swap them to get the job done quickly
They NEED to buff landmines. These things do so little damage if you some how get hit by it. They are literally health kits, as even a blind monkey can hear that damn parry noise and just click the melee button. The game is way too fast paced for these long ass detention land mines. I would ATLEAST make the landmine active 50% faster and make it give you 50% less health when you parry it. (Do not say just increase the damage. That will just make it more value to parry.)
You know I’m just gonna tell you this little secret, the mines were made to make sure you can get health while fighting guttertanks, that is why they are really useless, there are just health packs. You were on the dot in your third sentence.
@@josephsiddiqui6472 Why on earth does this game need stress free health kits? The whole gimmick of ultrakill is that you have to be in combat to heal off your enemies, so these landmines are ruining the design of ultrakill without even adding a gimmick. AND this is a damn act three enemy. Does the minotaur give you free healing? Does the guttermen or mannequin place down heal packs?
Why don’t we just make it behave differently on different difficulties? Once the next highest difficulty is revealed, then We get Pre-nerf Guttertanks back.
Even i'm surprised Guttertanks were nerfed, granted i did have a hard time with them at first until i studied their moves in the Sandbox for a minute or two. I still play the pre-nerf version since knowing how i play, the nerf makes no difference besides making them a sitting duck once i do this overpowered technique called: dashing at the right time. (Oh yeah, and a sawtrap + 2-3 projectile boosts are all it takes to down a Guttertank, something i abused during my 7-4 P rank.
You may have noticed this yourself a long time ago, but I still want to share one observation. in general, I usually don’t go into the sandbox (and it’s been a while since I went into Ultrakill itself). in short, the other day I decided to start knocking out P-ranks on a new layer, and went into the sandbox to practice. firstly, I learned to dodge and parry the Guttertank. secondly, after that I decided to check how my new favorite tactic would affect him - a pin from a nail gun to the body plus several stopped missiles at the same time. The first thing that was a new discovery for me personally was that the rockets from the blue rocket launcher, after hovering for a second, receive a charge, turn blue and explode in a red explosion upon contact with the enemy. The second thing that surprised me was when I used this technique directly in battle with him - stopping the blue rocket launcher's missiles also affects the Huttertank's missiles... my mind exploded! also, a small detail that I discovered - it can be blown up by its own rocket if you choose the timing and shoot with a revolver approximately in the area of the blue light before its attack. this is almost the same as shooting at a cluster of energy in the hand of a Stray, Schism or Soldier, except that for a Guttertank it will not be fatal
Don't worry - it'll be gone in Brutal/UMD. :) (People just cannot figure out an enemy where you can bait an attack, I guess, despite Maurice being in the game since Prelude)
there was no problem with guttertank there is problem with guttertankS it is area denial enemy and in when you have more than 4 of them or get distracted for a second you get denied all space, take to account that health is actually enough to live under mild attack and you have consistent thorn in the ass but yea, this trip over stupidly long
The amount of markiplier punches I saw whiplashing to a Tank, they also seem to have way too much to do from what it feels like, they have three functions: lay mines, shoot mid-air stopping rockets (the stopping mid-air is something feeling like it comes out of nowhere) and have a melee punch if we compare this to sentries they have two kick you away and do a bunch of damage after a while, so the tank having as much to do is one thing too much and having one be flawed is fine, which supposedly were the Rockets, so these are enemies you were supposed to keep your distance from.
if youtube existed back then, people would be arguing about the cyberdemon in doom like this its probably no coincidence that the guttertank has some parallels with the cyberdemon's design
the thing with guttertanks is that pre nerf they were the exact same as mindflayers, in that they thrive at medium range, and ultrakill is a medium to close range game, so you go close to compensate, and then they punish you for it with a very hard to dodge mele attack. At least with mindflayers they a) give you a warning with the tp sound right next to you, and b) their main attack is parryable. Pre nerf guttertanks had that same problem, but with none of the countermeasures that make mindflayers feel fair once you understand them (assuming they don't tp next to you and then punish you for being close to them) post nerf is much better, because now a) the advice you're given in the terminal actually works, and b) there's genuine counterplay that's not just "kill it or learn this one unintuitive one shot which goes against 80% of ultrakill's gameplay philosophy to implement"
Edit: well well, how the turns tabled. I was right LMAO
ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxTHZZOQtzn8aiPg76I7Mj6IwyEuSYlniw
To quickly clarify: I do NOT think the slip is a bad addition. However, I do consider the parry window to be too long, especially for an Act 3 enemy. (on Violent, obviously)
And I've read a lot of comments already and I will concede that one of my comparisons was kinda dumb upon looking back (notably, one of the Stalker ones) so L there. Shouldn't have rushed the video but here I am being a bozo LOL. Also, the guy from Discord is someone I interact with a lot and the big funni voice is an impression of Big Man Games which we have a joke competition to see who does a BETER impression of him (which I will win hehehehehheheheheh). So yeah, just thought I'd put it out there. I would also like to take the L on saying that Roundtrip is painful as if you stick it with a magnet, all you need to do is touch the frozen rocket once and once you unfreeze it, it will instantly nail the thing in the face and instakill it.
ua-cam.com/video/PmPO_HTxoHU/v-deo.html
This video is meant to be me providing my feedback and discussing my feelings on the nerf in an entertaining way and not trying to police how the game is made (unlike the people who cried for a nerf). If you feel differently about this topic, that's fine, but do not force your own vision of the game onto everyone and just LOWER THE DIFFICULTY, it's that simple.
ok thank god, i was about to rant. but even i, someone who was complaining about it, thinks that the get up animation is too long. like maybe the same window as basicly any other melee attack. and you could heal off them, but the speed of the melee made it very close to impossible to get a net gain.
when fighting them for the first time I’ll admit i could see how much of a step-up they were in difficulty compared to other enemies but after fighting them in the sandbox to figure out what their moves were i realized they weren’t too bad. I assumed the purpose of them was to be a counter to the Guttermen, who were best fought up close with the KB or with normal parries so they stop tracking. When the dev includes a punch like that, it is NOT an enemy you’re meant to heal from, thus making them better to be fought at midrange or long distance.
After learning this, they didn’t become too bad, but tbf i have 250 hours in this game, so less experienced players i could see struggling
i think that the guttertank should slip only if you ground slam him when he does his melee attack, you would still need to have good timing and use one bar of stamina and it would give more use to the ground slam, also the "parry" window should definetly be decreased. it also looks really goofy to see a war machine that can hold a giant rocket launcher and was designed for war cant even balance its own weight, if they slip everytime they try to punch it wouldnt really make sense why they would keep doing that exact same mistake over and over again
@@rafaelflores448 tbf you need to remember it's punch was designed to destroy Guttermen instantly (hell, you can even see it if you make them fight each other where the Guttertank OHKO it in one punch), so it doing a huge ass punch and losing balance after no hitting anything makes sense since it wasn't intended to handle fast machines like V1
Hakita said that it needed the nerf, therefore all of your arguments are invalid and you should cope and seethe
My main problem with the guttertank is that it’s design doesn’t really indicate that they are at their most dangerous in their melee range.
So basically this is just a more advanced Filth situation? Interesting…
Especially because up until this point, Ultrakill has drilled it into us that rocket launchers are for mid-range, and point blank rocket combat gets you killed.
And then Guttertanks decided to put melee gas in the rocket launcher and rocket fuel in their fists.
I mean to be fair, its a thicc boi. So I am pretty sure its easy to realize that they are dangerous at melee range.
@@goldenzed6455You can parry a punch from a man the size of a skyscraper
@@NeonVoxel guttertank stronger than Minos confirmed?????
the reason people have not cried out that the stalker breaks the ultrakill game loop would be because its more of a support enemy, similar to the idol, its not actively hunting you down
Also it can be knuckleblaster’d into the stratosphere, just like sentries,
Stalker can't even actively damage you.
To heal you need to close in fisticuffs range with dangerous(even if you are gaming journalist) enemy
The logic is consistent
i meant the idol, not the virtue, oops
Except in P-2, _that_ specific Stalker is pretty much hunting you down like a boss
@@apollyon6855not until he got everything before it, which, if you are good enough, will not happen. an exaple of this is the first wave of the last arena room, the last one standing will prolly be the ferry man, which you can bait away from the stalker, making him chase the ferry man and not you.
The issue with the Guttertank is not that they are overpowered, but rather that their design is completely misleading. The main point of them is that they keep you away from them, but are also the rocketeer enemy that attacks in a method that screams "I like mid-range combat." Additionally: the instakill is something that a new player would never think to try when playing the main campaign without someone else telling them to. The Guttertanks take very little damage from explosives, so why would a player think to send the enemy's rocket right back at them via rocket riding without being told about that effect?
The Guttertanks were never overpowered, but they are designed in a way that makes them feel clunky and counter-intuitive to learn. Hakita could've at least hinted at their brute strength in melee combat with a more obviously dangerous melee weapon or a more aggressive-looking design.
Shoulda given them a bigger buffer looking knuckleblaster arm.
@@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384 Agreed. The red on its body helps to make it stand out as a danger, but it looks more like a "look at my big fucking rocket launcher" danger right now.
WAIT YOU CAN SURF THEIR ROCKETS BACK
How the hell someone would have ever understood this thing.
I was going insane trying to fight them in middle range combat trowing everything at them since the level was too dark to make me see the parry window.
The arcade machine thingy when you enter a level tells you everything you need to know
@@nuze4047 I shouldn't have to backtrack the entire level to go to the terminal and read the logs for one normal enemy, especially when the logs were incredibly deceptive for the pre-nerf Guttertanks. The only way you could realistically get healing from them at close range pre-nerf was to spend a lot of stamina, which was the big issue with their melee. Every other enemy does a good job telling you exactly what you need to know about them mid-level, including the other new enemy of that level.
I think my main problem with it was that the terminal said to "bait out a punch before closing the gap", but it would immediately punch again after.
a delay between punches wouldve probably been the best option because a stagger seems excessive
Indeed
My thoughts exactly the guttertanks weren't even hard they were just annoying and now they're as much of a pushover as the gutterman
i prefer the stumble after a punch, they're big, they're heavy, and if they miss they overextend and trip, simple and effective, i like it
however
they're also super easy to get a free parry off of now and that parry opportunity lasts for a little too long
perhaps a change to their get up to make them quickly recover would be better? or at least a good change to make them a bit harder again but keep them balanced
the parry window could be shortened as well, at the very least, sort of like how sisyphus has a lingering animation on his stop attack, but you can't parry him anymore unless it's during the stomp
it would fit pretty well with the guttertanks to have the stumble be a bit faster, but the parry is either gone, or heavily shortened to be only during the end of their attack meaning you need to be fast, or out of the way and just start dealing damage
they should keep the unparryable hitbox however during the wind up and halfway through the swing
Half a second party window would be great as it's not to long and also means the guttertank can't just constantly chain punches, but whatever hakita does is fine and I support.
maybe a delay but like… less? the delay is sooo long it feels like it should be for lenient difficulty, violence should have no stagger but the followup punch is parryable
Honestly, the thing about Guttertanks is that their behavior is in this uncanny valley of sorts. Or, rather, that they’re generalists in a game with specialist enemies.
Their rockets behave just strangely enough that it makes it difficult to wrap your head around. Their punch *feels* like it should be parriable, but isn’t. Their stagger is fine, but with the ‘parry’ involved, it feels a little janky to try and get to them before they get back up and smite you.
Leading up to this is how Ultrakill has teached you to deal with enemies. They’ve got set patterns, so the problem is when there’s an extreme load of them or there are enemies whose behavior patterns patch up their weaknesses. The Guttertank essentially doesn’t have any hard weaknesses, and the ones that are present are easily covered up by almost any non-fodder enemy. Even the ones that CAN’T be covered up by enemy load are hard to exploit in practice. It’s hard to hit a Guttertank with their mines when they’re launching anti-matter missiles at you. It’s hard to exploit their stagger when you’re getting focused down by other enemies.
That’s why the Guttertank feels so sucky (or boring, if you play _roughly_ how you should against them) to fight against. They can do too much, and their weaknesses are either too hard to exploit or get covered by other enemies so easily.
They’re a jack of all trades, except they’re the master of nearly all of them. Range, Splash Damage, Melee, Support, Tanky, Relatively Fast, they can just do too much.
Probably just as well they have less health than a swordsmachine in that regard. I think the biggest relief you can add to an annoying enemy is to make it at least a bit squishy.
Any weakness can be covered up by a non-fodder enemy
I think you perfectly described how most people felt about the Guttertank. It really sums up why many didn't enjoy them
I think the parry window is THAT big so that the players won't be scared to spend all of their dashes to return to slipped guttertank after dodging and parry it and refuel their stamina.
Slides exist too methinks
funny thing is I still do exactly that
i think the gutter tank needed a nerf for the sake of the next planned difficulties consistency, since the trend is to remove a weakness or add a new mechanic altogether (besides making them faster) so I'd say the guttertank currently for violent difficulty is perfectly fine post nerf, and with the next planned difficulties it will prob be back to being like pre nerf but faster or with another extra attack or being enraged somehow.
Make it enraged if you use your Rocket Launcher to freeze its rockets.
that sounds pretty interesting, actually
@@prometheanrebel3838Red enemy? Enraged? I don't see the point, honestly.
@@ED-gw9rgV2 is a red enemy too...
@@ED-gw9rg Uber charged Red Heavy disagrees.
(For real tho, what if they inverted the red to blue for the enraged texture for t he Guttertank?)
I agree that it didn't need to be nerfed, but i think the real issue that people are complaining about is that its not a fun enemy to kill
I agree, the parry window should be lowered as its more of a "Counter" than a proper parry as of now.
Maybe make it something more complicated? Like ground pounding the tank on his back
@@bullcheese2236actually that’s be really cool
absolutely. all enemies have some sort of huge weak point that can be exploited but you need to time manage when multiple of them (and of various types) are in the level. the main point is that for in-game progression the guttertank is a HUGE difficulty spike as an enemy. i had no problem against cerberi in limbo, and thought that it was a great addition. and after all, the update just came out, it was a matter of time until the community learnt about how to rid em off. the actual issue was that it was just too much of a first impression tbh
you can parry guttertanks while they're still basically on the ground flat on their face
it's too easy of a parry
instead, remove the parry window and speed up their get up animation a bit, maybe make the parry window on the end of their punch as they fall, but they should absolutely keep the unparryable hitbox during the wind up and maybe about halfway through the attack it can switch to a very brief parry
and then if you don't parry them, they stumble, fall, and quickly get back up, during which you can't still parry them and can only use it as a chance to deal damage
or just, blitz them down with alt nail gun because saw blades are op as shit against guttertanks and even guttertank gutterman combos
@@bullcheese2236 that sounds extremely cool, like imagine having a green flash or something indicating you to ground pound something, similar to how you can paryr the dead guttermen
Alt Marksman detected opinion rejected (I'm just bad at the game and tryna cope with it)
alt marksman is good
wait i confused sharpshooter with marksman
nah bro the alt marksman is genuinely just ass
@@Frinlo2 tfym? Alt marksman is fine. 5 damage on a splitcoin can shred bosses.
The gutter man wasn’t difficult, it was just extremely annoying to fight as a non-professional player. It wasn’t fun.
people in ultrakill like getting close to enemies, and like options for attaching enemies close and far away. The guttertank, pre patch, was exclusively damageable from a distance.
I think that giving it a parry window and pretty much nothing else was a good idea. The parry window should definitely be smaller, but the existence of a parry window is ultimately a very positive addition.
As someone who’s put a lot of time into the game, but not too much (p-ranked everything except p-2 on violent) you are not the average player. most ultrakill players don’t even know about the yellow flash indicating a parry, or think to read the terminals.
You are better than the average ultrakill player. Your movement demonstrates that.
You mention listening to their beeps to understand their attacks.
I’ve beaten everything except for p-2 without listening to mindflayers, ever. Mindflayers are not a difficult enemy to me. i don’t know how to instakill them, it’s just that my particular movement style counters their attacks easily.
Your style is particularly suited to avoiding guttertanks. They are more difficult to you than they are to other players.
The guttertank definitely did need a nerf- a person who is a causal player who will play through violence once. they will never experiment, because the game isn’t important to them.
For a casual player playing through the game once, even on violent, the guttertank will be a difficult enemy. Lack of parry or any short-distance weakness at all makes the enemy seem unfair.
The guttertank is still a difficult enemy, even with the nerf, but the nerf is just enough that casual players are able to get through.
At least, that’s my take.
As a casual player (same progression as you, 50 hrs in game) who wholeheartedly agrees with you, I want to add my 2 cents on top, so here goes:
On top of everything you said, one of the things that add a lot to the game in my opinion are parries. Parries act as a fun way to both damage enemies and recover health, they reward good play and learning attack patterns while adding a little risk to the players going for them. If I'm not misremembering it, all enemies have either a parry or an obvious window in which they can be countered. Pre-nerf, the guttertank didn't have either. This made them unfun from my perspective. Yes, I could stay in mid-range and spam them with attacks, or go in n out quickly with 2 dashes, but that's not what makes ultrakill fun. What is fun is diving in the middle of a swarm of enemies and riskily taking them all out. What is fun is duking it out with Minos prime, punch by punch, parry by parry, hit by hit. What isn't fun is having a bullet sponge( I know it isn't that much, it just feels a lot longer when playing) which I have to take out in mid-range. The parry rectifies this by both adding a period of time in which the guttertank is essentially stunned and adding a parry to it.
Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that it was unfair, hell, even in the video, Batakanta stated that you could dodge all its' attacks by walking and that's true, it wasn't difficult to kill by any means. I didn't know about the beeps part before this video, but even so, the enemy just wasn't as engaging as the others, and lacked a core aspect present in all other enemies. Though I must say, while the stumble delay is great and allows easier kills on priority targets, the window for the parry may be a little too large. (Also I must add that I thought mine parries giving health was a post nerf thing, I didn't get any health back when I initially tried parrying them, maybe that was a bug..? Did it exist before nerf?)
@@PlatinumTuna You took the words right out of my mouth. I full on suck at Ultrakill, haven't even unlocked P-1, but I love the game, so here's my thoughts:
I didn't like fighting pre-patch Guttertank. I found it really hard to kill. That's fine btw, the enemies should be difficult to fight. But Guttertank's charge attack always fucked me up, because (to me) it came out so fast that I couldn't get out of the way fast enough. If it had been parriable or if it had had the stumble if it missed, then it would have been fine. Having both is overkill
Streetcleaners I believe are the only enemy you physically can't parry in any way? Might be something else but yeah, as far as I remember. But even then, they're easy to kill despite being dangerous. Guttertank just felt like a wall of health that I was laying in to and not doing much else. I could kill them with some difficulty but it honestly more felt like an enemy I just threw everything at solely to get rid of, unlike other enemies where it was fun to fight them.
I have also p-ranked everything but p-2 and whenever I fought the guttertank after my first encounter it was just "oh boy here we go again" The parry window it has now is too long but least it feels like a reasonable challenge, and not "can you just die already" which alone I can parry easily but in a group fight it's more of a challenge due to everything else trying to kill me.
I'm not the best at the game. I can't do many of the rocket based tech's (I just don't like the rocket launcher enough to use it) But I'm decent at railcoining core nuking etc. But yeah, guttertank just didn't feel the most fun to fight even by just trying to avoid damage, since if I did ever get hit dodging the punch to get close to him just felt annoying to attempt. And gotta say, his punch range is Pretty long
Maybe a casual players who playh through the game once isn't even the target demographic of the game in the first place (*Cough, level ranks and challanges and secrets, even Prime Sanctums*), let alone should be playing on violent difficulty.
@@illegal7.62rounds5 even though all of that content is doable for casual players on violent difficulty? Might be hell to p rank p-2 but the rest is doable. Seriously this is a really bad take since the game is perfectly fine with casual players.
Most enemies in Ultrakill can be divided into two groups: those that are a pain when ignored, like Virtues, Mindflayers, Stalkers and Filth; and those that are a pain when confronted, like Cerberi, Maurices, Hideous Masses and Mannequins. The Guttertank has slow movement speed, a big, slow, long-range attack and a long-lasting hazard, all properties of a high-priority enemy that is a pain when ignored. This is further proven by having its weakenesses all focusing on punishing it for a mistake (like firing rockets when magneted) and not slipping through its attacks (like jumping over Cerberus’ shockwave).
Except for one.
The Guttertank’s punch *can* be dodged easily, but the only course of action after that is falling back and engaging another enemy, lest you get punched again or rocketed in the face (magnets are only effective when you’re far from the Guttertank, another part of the Guttertank’s role confusion).
For the difficulty argument, I have a simple answer.
Make the Guttertanks harder at range. As you can probably tell, I like the nerf they added (the stun and parry window should be smaller tho), but what I don’t like is how EASY they are to shut down. As you said, just put a magnet on them. What I think they should do? Make rockets not attracted to magnets stuck to the Guttertank shooting them, and less attracted to magnets in general. Mines, too, are too slow, even on Violent difficulty. I think they should play out their animation faster, and only be parriable near the peak of their jump.
Lastly, health. GUTTERTANKS ARE NOT A FRAGILE ENEMY. You said they have even less health than Swordsmachine, who is not tanky, but Swordsmachine is only so tankyn’t because it gets stunned for ages and for whatever reason. This is also a good reason to add a stun to Guttertanks, since close-range encounters with Guttertanks are similar to close-range encounters with Swordsmachines on radiant steroids. You also said they only have a bit more HP than Cerberi, aka the closest thing in Ultrakill to a tank before Layer 7. You know how, after dashing, Cerberi can act almost immediately? Kinda reminds you of the pre-nerf Guttertank, right? That’s the problem. Guttertanks are not the kind of enemy that you would prefer avoiding if it wasn’t so hard. And if they were, it would be the rockets that would need to get toned down.
In conclusion, Guttertanks are a one-machine army that you can’t cripple like you can a normal army.
Ultrakill players when a small quality of life adjustment is added to the game and makes it slightly easier:
As a fist main this is the greatest thing ever added to the game
8:32 The guttertank's instantkill isn't even that hard.
> Magnet on guttertank
> Freeze one of its rockets
> Jump on frozen rocket then jump off
> Unfreeze
> +Round trip
You just need to time it and get a safe rocket to ride on, train in the sandbox.
Bring back overcharged rockets with MaliRailcannon nukes, it was hella fun :(
exactly, isnt the point of ultrakill just to be fun, so why did makita make the freezeframe no fun again
mfw i freeze the rocket and as soon as i jump onto it it overcharges and i explode;
The giga nukes were kinda overpowered ngl. Nuking is already a large part of cybergrind and using that massive nuke didn't feel nearly as good or rewarding as hitting a flying core eject while going mach 5
this would rarely work on violent
@@HoloTheDrunk How about making the freezecharge delay longer? That way, you'll have to sacrifice more time to do a meganuke. This will make player have to decide either a meganuke, which is higher risk since you have to set it up first but better reward, or an instant nuke that have less risk and reward than a meganuke.
I struggled with the Guttertank at first because I hadn't played Ultrakill in like a month or two, but after I got adjusted it was actually quite similar to the Gutterman in difficulty, in fact it's super easy to dodge it, you have 12 frames of invincibility when you dash, you can literally dash through it's punch and just parry it's landmine to regain that lost stamina, and not to mention you're zipping around anyways
me too man, it was more of a wake up call than anything cuz i really wasn't prepared.
but guess what? you can adapt easily, so yeah i don't really understand what the fuss is all about.
I don’t know entirely given I’m still a very new Ultrakill player, but can’t you also use magnets to attract gutter tank rockets? I know magnets break from 3 rockets, but still.
@@not-him-I-swearyes, that was mentioned during the video
@@not-him-I-swear Indeed they do, if you have a hard time with the rockets, use magnets, hard time with the punches? get far away, trouble with health? search for other enemies
I feel the oddest thing about them was that they lead their melee shots so that if you're moving at high speed they'll throw their punch early, but unlike the Gutterman you can't parry said punch as it comes at you. This was the main reason I felt annoyed in getting close, but I now take care when I get closer and also... avoid whiplashing lol.
the only part I struggled with gutter tank was the first few times, because I saw the tank and thought it would work like a street cleaner
“Hmm big tank on back must be nap- OH SHI-“
I think it should go back to the original punch, but give it a stict parry window like the leviathan's bite.
Maybe on like standard and harmless and stuff make it punch a little slower, but on violent it should be able to combo you if you aren't pay attention.
Imo, instead of parry, it should be that they have delays before they can punch again so that, according to terminal, we can bait the punch and attack
@@fero_artthats, what they added in the nerf.
@@daktotathecolossus7404 no, if you dodge the punch, they get stunned and you can parry the stun, tho more easier, they also could have instead of adding parry, made it so that the punch have cooldown, like after 1 punch, it can do another for 1 sec or 2, but i think that'll be something in higher difficulties
The Leviathan parry is actually unintentional, and Hakita decided it was too fast to remove. Once he found out people *could* get it, it was just left in because if you are actually capable of doing it, might as well be allowed to.
the problem with pre-patch guttertank is that you could be low hp from other enemies going into a guttertank encounter and then try to heal off them but get one shot into oblivion. Having the parry window allows you to heal off the guttertank unlike before. About the mines, the guttertank would rarely stray far enough from the mine for you to safely parry it before you inevitably killed it anyway. Also I’ve personally have just sworn off the screwdriver.
Also with the point about lethal damge, i don’t think it’s usually worth using a railcannon shot on a guttertank, especially since it has relatively low hp compared to other enemies like the swordsmachine or cerberi. You’re better off using a cannonball or a charged slab piercer shot because those still deal good damage relative to the guttertank’s hp at lower cost.
Well if you think about it, we're playing the game in medium level of difficulty (it can be somewhat forgiving in some things) so we don't know how the game will be in higher difficulty. I hope guttertanks and some other enemies wont be parryable in UKMD or Brutal difficulties
I think making parrying more difficult instead of outright not allowing it to happen would be more fun, so you're still incentivized to take the risk but you're more likely to get obliterated
good news!
Ultrakill pro players when you don't do a 4x ultraricoshot to kill a schism
The Cyberdemon from Doom is bad because you have to dodge its rockets and its tanky
I think if the parry window was lower, the nerf would be perfect. That would make it so playing against Guttertanks isn't as boring as pre-nerf (At least I thought they were boring) but also not as pathetically easy as now.
Honestly the way the guttertank’s rockets work makes it much similar to an enraged virtue, despite the fact that it has almost no similarities outside of that.
I never got to fight the Guttertank before the nerf. Honestly, I find a bit of charm with the punch stagger that the Guttertank has, but I only found out the tech you mentioned while experimenting in sandbox. I missed out on being creative with fighting a Guttertank because the nerf. I remember killing a good number of them by just walking backwards and giving them the feedbacker. It's one thing to make an enemy more accessible to deal with, but it's a greater experience to let a player experiment. I think people forget the value from just testing out things.
Most Ultrakill enemies aren't really that scary to stand next to, so I don't really mind Guttertanks changing up the pace in this way. It even made me start using the cannon ball a bit more.
What probably makes them seem so beefy to people at first is them not being used to dodging the tank's attacks, so they're evading more and shooting less. At least that's how it was for me at first.
i mean in my opinion, the slip is great, even if it wasnt parriable it would still make it more fun to fight against, because the rockets werent the problem, the non stop punching without punishment was the annoying bit, otherwise his design was fine, and it was kinda justifiable seeing how the gutterman was a joke
Fully agree. Still wouldn’t remove the slip or make it shorter.
It’s just so funny seeing this giant mech fall down like a 5 year old and then slowly recover.
the guttertank made me feel like i was playing the demo for the first time struggling on the 2 cerberi lol
I just wanted a cooldown so it would stop rapid firing hay makers
I also didn't have that many problems with the guttertank in terms of difficulty but I feel like you and a lot of other ultrakill players are ignoring how most people who are going into violence for the first time aren't going to know most ultrakill tech.
Heck I didn't even know about projectile boosting until after I had beaten the game blind and went online.
Like calling swordsmachine an easy enemy makes sense for someone whos played cybergrind and is fully knowledgeable about how to deal with them but remember how swordsmachine was first introduced as a regular enemy in 6-1 only 3 levels before the guttertank is introduced.
Especially since guttertank was introduced alongside the gutterman which already forces the player to adjust their playstyle so making the guttertank a little easier to manage was a welcome addition in my opinion.
But I also agree that the guttertanks stun lasts for a little to long and if I were hakita I would've shortened it while also making round trip easier to preform for more experienced players.
Tbh I didn't even knew how his attack works exactly until I looked at the terminal entry after beating the entire layer. I just kept my distance and it worked.
that mf probably plays on the easy difficulty and sticks his face to the enemies thinking he would be inmortal
To me they weren't very difficult but they were very annoying. The area around them almost felt like a deadzone of where you can and can't go and when there was more than 1 of them it got very annoying getting close to enemies that were near them. This is a good change but too much of a nerf
My main issue with the Gutter Tank is just that the rocket launcher enemy shouldn't be its most deadly at close range, especially since that's where the gutterman is most deadly as well. It just feels so counterintuitive for me personally
you changed my mind, this nerf was a good idea
Ultrakill players when they are thrown out of their comfort zone:
This nerf has been planned since they’ve been added, quit acting like Hakita was pressured into adding it
@@CollectMyP4ges Even if it was planned people whined and asked for a nerf before it actually happened
The problem with guttertanks pre-nerf was that they were unfun, unlike other enemies that have tech. Maurice has chargeback
Cerberus has the cannonball thing
Mannequin has airshots
Gutterman has guard break
Almost all other non-boss enemies have some strats and vulnerabilities that are specific to them. On top of that, most enemies have parriable attacks. All of that made ultrakill combat work, whenever you encounter an enemy, you can picture in your head multiple ways of killing it in rather effective, fun and stylish ways. When I personally see a Maurice I see multiple approaches I can take:
Parry the projectile
Shotgun-parry the beam
Sharpshooter instakill
Piercer instakill
Whiplash shotgun swap
The shotgun + red arm thing
Multiple ways of doing a chargeback
On the other hand, when I see a prenerf guttertank I know that I can:
Parry it's landmine into it, which deals minimal damage, and just isn't worth the time it takes and the risk of getting meleed, cuz you would be leaving your self vulnerable right next to a guttertank to do that.
Do the funny rocket instakill, which is pretty stylish and rewarding, but it's not super consistent, at least for me, because the rocket might just explode when you try to ride it for no reason, and if it doesn't, you are still leaving yourself vulnerable for more than enough time to get meleed, and all of that applies to a single guttertank, if it's not alone and there are other enemies, especially other guttertanks, then you can just basically forget about this strat, as it leaves you too vulnerable for too long.
And that leaves us with only one consistent enough strat: just damage sponge it with all you have. This enemy just felt unfun and not flexible, most of the time it acted as a damage sponge with a relatively big healthpool, that can also rip your soul out with a superfast superpowerfull superlongranged punch, and you could do absolutely nothing but cry about it. This doesn't seem much ultrakill to me. But at least now, after it was nerfed you can whiff from that punch and then punish it, now this enemy has some more interaction with the player, and it feels more engaging and manageable, and less annoying and out of control
ua-cam.com/video/PmPO_HTxoHU/v-deo.html
I already commented this on another video, but I do think there is some ways to keep the stumble, but make it less easy.
- Lower the damage parrying does. For me, I only ever parry for style, HP, and to avoid grey HP, not really for damage.
- Make them get up faster, but keep the parry. It would make it harder and feel SUPER GOOD to get one on them.
- On the 2 unreleased difficulties, (Maybe even an update to Violent) make them to where they don't stumble.
- Maybe they +ENRAGE when parried, encouraging people to try to avoid that if they want an easier fight.
I literally didn't even know they had a parriable attack now, guttertanks are kinda pathetic.
Don't care. I'll die mad and I'll die on this hill (due to getting kicked by a gutter tank in the shins.)
The only reason Guttertanks were seen as overpowered was because:
1) Their counterpart, Gutterman is complete joke on the release
2) 7-2, 7-3 and 7-4 where you fight Guttertanks you mostly fight them in groups of 2-4 and/or with many smaller enemies supporting them. Yes, they are not as hard as Mindflyers, but you dont see 2-4 mindflyers outside of really high levels of cybergrind. The most you see is two Mindflyers in P-2 which is supposed to be brutal gauntlet most likely harder then any other level in the base game. The fact that right after you fight the first Guttertank you immediately have to fight 2 more in the same small room and then later fight 4 in the archives sort of implies despite its size its supposed to be type of enemy that you will fight in bulk.
3) Cerberus while being hard to parry and being one of the tankiest enemies is also one of the slowest if not the slowest, doing only short easy to dodge dashes, very slow walk and then throwing bomb every 10 or so seconds. Fighting even 6 of them is more manageable then just 3 Guttertanks just because of how slow they are and how easy it is to avoid their attacks as long as you have enough room.
4) The nerf mainly works if you fight Guttertank 1v1, which was not that big of a problem in the first place. If there are two Guttertanks near eachother they can hit you while the other one is staggered.
before the nerf: i come closer to a guttertank, he punch me, i try again, it punches me until i die because i'm unable to heal if i can't come closer to get the blood, also feels like if the guttertank has too many health
after the nerf: i avoid the punch, i parry him or i do railcoining to kill him in just 1 shot, also now i had the chance to heal now.
the nerf was a good idea, it's more easy and fun to kill him.
You could also do the railcoining without the parry window by doging the punch
thats literally what i said.
"i avoid the punch, i parry him or i ralcoin him until he dies."
the small window that now the guttertank gives you for avoiding the punch is just perfect.
@@hakiitr7412 You said it after the nerf, not before.
Dumbass.
The nerf is kinda nice, I just think the wake up time on the guttertank slip should be sped up. It feels a little *too* free to just dash back and nearly instant-kill the guttertank.
hey, had you tried guttertanks on brutal? :)
(Haven't finished the video, might edit my comment if I change my opnion on the video)
For context, I have 33 hours of gameplay, have P-ranked act 1 and 2, including P-1(This before the Violence update), and have already P-ranked 7-1,7-2 and 7-4.
When it came to 7-2, I thought the Gutterman was extremely parry focused, so, when Guttertanks were revealed I thought the same of them, since they shot rockets, what do they do? Punch you in the face with almost 0 delay in between punches, not only that but when I first saw them their range seemed to go way further than it should be, but it was because they pull back before punching you + problems with my 130 fov.
The last room was even worse, because I didn't know how to dodge their rockets yet so it was a nightmare.
7-3 was fine in terms of the Guttertanks since I was just running around avoiding the blood mannequins (That last room lags me to all hell).
7-4 I had already understood how to fight them a bit. And when it came to replaying the levels I started understanding how actually easy they are, just running around them, shooting with revolvers or projectile boosts did it for me, putting saw blades or nails on them to make it easier sometimes.
The "Cybergrind thought" behind balancing Guttertanks is wrong, since in the end, you're not supposed to go p-ranking every single level and them coming to violence, you're not supposed to even be doing cybergrind by that point, it's from Act , Act 2 and Act 3, this is the way Hakita intended, so new players can get BRUTALLY mauled by Guttertanks.
Since the introduction of Mannequins and Guttermen I thought Layer 7 would be parry focused, so when you have an enemy you can't parry it really breaks the flow of everything, but adding a challenge of taking care of not only the projectiles hurling towards you, but which enemies are near you to not get punched into orbit is quite a nice addition.
The change was nice, but the parry window is so large it doesn't make sense, so is the animation, they should make them unparriable BUT still let them get staggered for a quick second to not make new players get destroyed, since 6-1 difficulty is nearly NOTHING compared to layer 7 difficulty, it's not even that I struggled with them after getting used to them pre-patch, I don't even bait his punches most of the time and just don't get hit enough to need to heal from a Guttertank, but do you think a fresh out, maybe 5-10 hours player will know how to fight it easily? No, probably not.
TLDR: New players will think Layer 7 is about parries, Guttertanks with almost 0 delay between unparriable punches is brutal for them compared to 6-1 difficulty.
The patch is not good for Guttertanks, make them only get staggered for a quick second and not parriable.
(Coming from a not so experienced player that has not done Cyber Grind or P-2 P-rank, kind of the way Hakita intends for new players to play. And yes I had a bit of a skill issue when they were introduced.)
I agree that the nerf was a bit much since the reason the guttertank is so useless this patch is because the bug that made its punch come out faster also got patched so it is infinitely easier to not be hit by it. Also fyi, some clips I've seen of people getting nuked by guttertanks had them die to charged rockets because the blast radius on them was too high. Overall, the problem you feel isn't the new parry window (that is barely usefull in combat anyways lmao) but the fact that the enemy was bugged (I'm quoting hakita on this, don't ask me what was causing it) and made it abnormally harder than it should have been.
Heres my complaints about Guttertanks:
Punches launch you too far.
Thats it.
when i first fought guttertank, I was like "man this guy's gonna be everywhere, and he is difficult!"
later i was like "oh this guy's actually pretty easy, just stay away from him so he cant punch me!"
post-nerf i was like "haha stupid funny red man trips over free health"
edit: i just wanted to add; i think the guttertanks being difficult is much more fun than a guttertank where you can get lots of parries by dashing in and out of its melee range.
well, it's a good think Hakita stated that the previous version will remain for harder difficulties
I didn't know that, that's pretty cool :D
i think the way guttertants fall is funny so i dont care about how "balanced" it is. But i can certainly say that v14a guttertanks is a bad game design.
Pretty much everything in ultrakill insensitiveses aggression and playing as actively as you can. Every enemy there is provides extra opportunities in the form of parries or convenient attack windows if you play up close. Every enemy except guttertank. Sure dodging the fist once is easy enough after you learn the timing. What is your reward besides not taking any damage? Maybe after punching once gtank starts doing other atrack that allows you to pour some easy dmg? No it starts doing same attack almost immediately after the the first one is over. And no its not the combo attack that gives you a parry opportunity in the end, its just the same giant range very quick windup attack. So you either slide away or waste another dash charge in shame. You CAN heal of gtank, the question is why bother when doing it off every other enemy is so much less hustle. I wont argue that gtanks are hard to kill, they are not, but you do that by constantly keeping your distance from them, unlike almost with every enemy after you are familiar with them. I get in the face of Maurice, i grapple to mindflayers, i parry swordmashines and ferryman in cybergind. And with guttertanks i keep my social distance cause they are assholes that break the rules of the game.
Tldr: Guttertanks were not superstrong, but their design was anti-Ultrakill.
Refer to the video
refering to the video you respond to a bunch of takes that i dont agree with in the first place. I argue specifically about his only melee attack.
Also 5:00 Hakita literally implemented a change to the enemy, noone held him hostage and he never compromised his vision about the game design because ppl cried about difficulty (whiplash nerf) ever. doesnt THAT tell that some change was justified?
@@dfrgmnt As I stated, I have no problem with the slip. I have a problem with the massive window which completely trivializes it.
"it's impossible to heal from the guttertank because of it's punch-"
me literally just dashing away after an overpump or anything similar:
initially i thought they needed a nerf, then i realised they become trivial by just not going near them, so i just didnt, and had barely any problems with them outside of cramped areas from then on
main argument i can make is that when it dies it leaves too much shit on the ground so i see it and think its still alive lmao
The community: waaa waaaa Guttertank broken nerf pls waaaaaa waaaa
Something Wicked: *laughs in wicked*
I agree completely! However, them slipping is funny, so I think it's a good addition, because it's funny.
When Violence first released, my big problem was just the fact that the Guttertank melee had the same telegraph window as a sentry, with no cooldown inbetween and a much larger range. While I definitely liked the nerf (especially since it means you can melee only the Guttertank now like pretty much every other enemy), the sheer size of the parry window makes dealing with Guttertanks almost as braindead as the Minos Prime fight.
A.. basic enemy, is less braindead than whats meant to be the second hardest boss in the game? Isnt that implying it should be nerfed
@@daktotathecolossus7404 I said it because Minos is unfortunately like, extremely trivial if you know his attacks. He goes from the second hardest boss in the game to like, an absolute pushover after you've fought him like twice. Hell, I struggle with Gabriel more than Minos, ironically.
@@Croaux
breaking news: understanding a bosses attacks make it easier
Holy shit how do you find this stuff
@@an-average-box I'm just that good at discovering this forbidden knowledge locked away from mankind
The pre patch guttertank terminal text on strategy still had the text to "bait a punch before closing the gap." I got baited by the description into another punch since the prepatch punch cooldown is non existant on violent, which was fine because like you said there are many ways to dealt with guttertanks, in my case I found railcoining and saw trapping before they come out of the capsule my goto ways to dealt with them. But that text made me believe that this change was either intended to be in the released in the first place.
That said I also believe that postpatch guttertank stagger is too long, it doesn't feel like violent at all.
hard to learn, easy to master, until the nerf.
You making a saw trap at the beginning instead of attaching it to a Guttertank and making a freeze frame rocket trap hurt me to watch.
I know it's a common-knowledge strat nowadays but I really did think of that strat myself at the time.
I think Guttermen need a buff too, most when specifically they're alone, the only room that ever brought me trouble in relation to Guttermen in is the final 7-2 room when there were three of them.
I barely notice a difference between pre-nerf and post-nerf guttertank, the Guttertank feels like a harder cerberus and a B-Side gutterman imo. The only guttertank I had a problem with in the entire game was the one on the 7-4 catwalk.
I did not think it would happen, but here we are
Player with skill of an invertebrate telling me that I have a skill issue because I notice that one enemy is way stronger than the other ones and attempts into comedy by stretching vowels
Does not know that weakness is a concrete term that means negative resistance to some type of damage
And in general tries to tell me that my opinion (that is 75% reciting Hakita) the man itself would consider dumb
I do think that they just need 30 health, which would allow to get 2 double parries on one tank
what i understood:
Make guttertank rocketjump himself awake 1 second after he falls
not everyone is as good at avoiding guttertanks as you. It needed a nerf so that casual players, the majority, could play the game and have fun
my main problem with the guttertanks is how often they spawn and how many of them show up at once. It seems like every time you see one, there's another 1-2 around him.
If Guttertank has a million fans, then I am one of them. If Guttertank has ten fans, then I am one of them. If Guttertank has only one fan then that is me. If Guttertank has no fans, then that means I am no longer on Earth. If the world is against Guttertank, then I am against the world.
I liked the guttertank feeling very hard when the layer dropped, but he looks so silly now when he falls and I love it
Honestly I read the terminal that said to bait their melee and I thought that was the way you were supposed to heal from them along with the mines
it probably wasn't their purpose of being annoying
otherwise hakita would't have nerfed them-
tho i do need to clarify that i sucked against them in pre patch
that was most likely due to just their punching speed (which was like twice as fast as you'd expecrt them to)
i think the slip makes it more fun to deal with, even tho it is the biggest parry window in the game [i believe] (so it could be shortened)
i think the nerf was needed but not necessarily to that extend
still makes the levels more fun xd
I think a cool design for the gutter tank would almost be the opposite of the gutterman, this is just my opinion, but could you imagine if up-close his punch couldn’t miss, was insta-kill, and was un-parriable but intern you could both ride and party his rockets back at him? Just a thought.
for the last time: guttertank pre-nerf was not HARD, it was not UNFAIR, it was ANNOYING. all that the "nerf" did was make successfully dodging the punch more rewarding, and that is a GREAT change because the punch wasn't dangerous or anything before, it was just extremely annoying. it was barely even a punch, it was essentially just a glorified bitch-slap.
if i wanted to simply kill the guttertank, i'd projectile boost it, or maybe i'd set up a saw trap, or perhaps i'd ultraricoshot it to death immediately, or maybe i'd activate freezeframe and whiplash their rockets into them when they fired, or (here's the kicker) i could completely trivialize it by sticking magnets into it, then keeping my distance and freezing and unfreezing rockets immediately when they fire them, which not only removes their ability to attack me but also causes them to literally kill themselves for me with little to no input.
the guttertanks were NOT difficult at all to kill. there's a reason why hakita "nerfed" their punch and only their punch. it's because they were extremely annoying and literally IMPOSSIBLE to heal off of. it was so bad that adding OTHER enemies to a room with guttertanks actually makes the room EASIER because now you have something to heal from.
the terminal itself literally tells you to try and bait a guttertank punch so you can get up close to it, so i tried to do that with a pre-nerf guttertank. "great! i dodged the punch! now i can-" and then the guttertank just punches AGAIN because there was NO COOLDOWN between punches. you could not, and i repeat, COULD NOT get close to the guttertank. you always got bitch-slapped away. and that made it so, so annoying to fight.
oooookay now to respond to some of YOUR points:
"the rockets are super easy to dodge! you can dodge it by walking!" the guttertank doesn't exist in a vacuum, you're not gonna be fighting it in a completely flat and open space with no other enemies in it. also, the rocket attacks aren't the problem, and they never were. nobody is complaining about the rockets. matter of fact, they went completely unchanged since the guttertanks were added. the rockets are the acceptable part of the guttertank. try dodging the punch by walking, i dare you.
"cerberus had no weaknesses pre-act 2 and has more health than the guttertank and nobody complained about it!" maybe it's because it's physically possible to get close to the cerberus and heal from it and attack it with weapons like the shotgun and nailgun effectively. you can't say the same for the guttertank.
"you can't heal from the stalker, but nobody calls it a bullshit enemy!" that's because the stalker is a SUPPORT ENEMY that has NO DIRECT ATTACKS towards the player and has VERY LITTLE HEALTH being killed with ONE OR TWO PROJECTILE BOOSTS and LITERALLY KILLS ITSELF if left alone. you can't compare apples to rotisserie chickens, for fucks sake.
"just use screwdriver" your weapons and loadout should be personalized and up to the player, no weapons should be required to deal with an enemy
"you can get close to it when it's firing!" ah yes let me WAIT for the enemy to do something so i can heal let me BE PATIENT in a fast-paced action shooter let me STAND BY for a little bit so i can wait for a short window of time where the game allows me to play of course yes this is logical game design
"people who say guttertank goes against the game's design philosophy know nothing about game design, hakita said so!!" hakita was quite literally the person who nerfed the guttertank what kind of argument is this
"bro you're literally just like mayo!!! you're like the doodoo poopoo bad game critic!!! that's literally you rn!!!" this is redditor portray-you-as-the-soyjak-and-me-as-the-chad behavior
"there's counterplay to the guttertank you're just bad!" yeah, there is counterplay. nobody ever said they were unkillable. you can pro-boost it, sawtrap it, coin it, whiplash its rockets, and magnet it to turn its rockets against it. the entire point of the debate is that the punch (which if dodged was just performed again) was annoying and made the guttertank an unenjoyable enemy because it disabled or at least limited most aggressive play and promoted pelting it with cheap tactics from afar. a lot of the cool things you can do on enemies in this game kind of require you to be at least a medium distance from the enemy, and the guttertank's punch (which has a pretty infuriating range) disables that.
"if you can't deal with it, that's your problem! skill issue" yeah i completely agree. if you can't deal with an enemy, it doesn't automatically mean it sucks. sometimes you just need to practice. here's the thing: the guttertanks were 100% deal-with-able. they are just annoying to do so with, because they had almost no healing windows and zero parryable attacks pre-patch, so any mistakes were permanent until you found another enemy to heal from.
"maybe the whole point is that it's annoying!!" what????? do you... not know what video games are for????? video games are for having fun and enjoying them, why the fuck would you have an enemy whose entire purpose was to be annoying????????
anyways for the rest of the video you're just reading someone's messages in a caveman voice to demoralize them which i am just going to skip over because that is just plain bad discourse (and also because the person you're talking with actually sucks at making points). also, you say you're explaining to them how guttertanks are okay, but you don't elaborate on your points at all in the messages???? some of them are literally just one word like "mines" and you provided zero elaboration, i got no idea how you think you won that argument with whoever that was
now, i'm not 101% for the nerf. i will agree with you on one thing, the slip does last way too long and makes it way too easy, especially with it being parryable. i think the parry window is way too long and was rather unnecessary. just making the cooldown between punches slightly longer so you could get one shotgun-blast in there without getting falcon-pawnched would've been enough. i'll agree with you on the fact that it got overnerfed a bit.
did i just write an entire essay because i'm mad? yeah
but you made a 17 and a half minute video so i think we're even
tl;dr guttertank and its rockets are easy to deal with, yes, but the punch was annoying as balls because it could not be dodged for more than a split second, but i'll admit it did get a little overnerfed.
Oh sorry for not only playing ultrakill and wanting to spend my arsenal on different enemies
Guttertanks are one of those enemies you really can’t turn your brain off and pro-boost spam against them and ect. There’s many ways to kill them; just don’t get punched (at all).
what if instead of nerfing guttertanks, we nerfed guttermen...
Counterpoint: what if we buff both because it'd be big funni kek
put mayo in a room with guttertanks
my main issue with the guttertank is that it dosent communicate its health. guttermen lose their shields, malicious faces and cerberuses crack, snipers get knocked back etc. but i could load an entire heatsink into the guttertank and have no idea how effective it was
2:53 I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA I'AM MALENIA, BLADE OF MIQUELLA (this is a joke obviusly)
watching this guy get kicked by sentry and slapped by guttertank repeatedly while he rants, cracks his voice, and pops his mic is very entertaining
some real sammyclassicsonicfan energy
I agree, Sentry must be nerfed. Cerberus must also be nerfed. Filth must be nerfed right now now now now now now now now now now now
I think the confusion with them arrived on how we never tend to deal with tanks from long range and instead just shotgun swap them to get the job done quickly
I didn't even knew that you could parry or that it has a big window and yet they're smashable 💀
pre patch guttertank wasnt op, it was just annoying to deal with while fighting other things
They NEED to buff landmines. These things do so little damage if you some how get hit by it. They are literally health kits, as even a blind monkey can hear that damn parry noise and just click the melee button. The game is way too fast paced for these long ass detention land mines. I would ATLEAST make the landmine active 50% faster and make it give you 50% less health when you parry it. (Do not say just increase the damage. That will just make it more value to parry.)
You know I’m just gonna tell you this little secret, the mines were made to make sure you can get health while fighting guttertanks, that is why they are really useless, there are just health packs. You were on the dot in your third sentence.
@@josephsiddiqui6472 Why on earth does this game need stress free health kits? The whole gimmick of ultrakill is that you have to be in combat to heal off your enemies, so these landmines are ruining the design of ultrakill without even adding a gimmick. AND this is a damn act three enemy. Does the minotaur give you free healing? Does the guttermen or mannequin place down heal packs?
Did I struggle with the gutter tank? Yes. Do I have a skill issue? Yes. Do I think the nerf was needed? No. Do I agree with this video’s ideas? Yes
I like how V1 could parry a punch from a fucking giant but cant parry a punch a robot that only 2 times bigger than him
the guttertank fells really werid for me because somehow it feels like a threat and it doesn't at the same time
Why don’t we just make it behave differently on different difficulties? Once the next highest difficulty is revealed, then We get Pre-nerf Guttertanks back.
Even i'm surprised Guttertanks were nerfed, granted i did have a hard time with them at first until i studied their moves in the Sandbox for a minute or two.
I still play the pre-nerf version since knowing how i play, the nerf makes no difference besides making them a sitting duck once i do this overpowered technique called: dashing at the right time.
(Oh yeah, and a sawtrap + 2-3 projectile boosts are all it takes to down a Guttertank, something i abused during my 7-4 P rank.
You may have noticed this yourself a long time ago, but I still want to share one observation. in general, I usually don’t go into the sandbox (and it’s been a while since I went into Ultrakill itself). in short, the other day I decided to start knocking out P-ranks on a new layer, and went into the sandbox to practice. firstly, I learned to dodge and parry the Guttertank. secondly, after that I decided to check how my new favorite tactic would affect him - a pin from a nail gun to the body plus several stopped missiles at the same time. The first thing that was a new discovery for me personally was that the rockets from the blue rocket launcher, after hovering for a second, receive a charge, turn blue and explode in a red explosion upon contact with the enemy. The second thing that surprised me was when I used this technique directly in battle with him - stopping the blue rocket launcher's missiles also affects the Huttertank's missiles... my mind exploded! also, a small detail that I discovered - it can be blown up by its own rocket if you choose the timing and shoot with a revolver approximately in the area of the blue light before its attack. this is almost the same as shooting at a cluster of energy in the hand of a Stray, Schism or Soldier, except that for a Guttertank it will not be fatal
Don't worry - it'll be gone in Brutal/UMD. :) (People just cannot figure out an enemy where you can bait an attack, I guess, despite Maurice being in the game since Prelude)
Is that an official statement btw? I've been hearing a few people mention it but can't seem to find the source
When I first fought guttertank, I got trashed hard, but I feel like I could've figured out a good combat loop with time.
i feel like removing the parry and speeding up the animation to 1.75x speed would be a good idea so hakita isnt wasting a cool animation
Wait, people think he is hard. He isn’t hard even in violent.
14b is a goated patch
there was no problem with guttertank
there is problem with guttertankS
it is area denial enemy and in when you have more than 4 of them or get distracted for a second you get denied all space, take to account that health is actually enough to live under mild attack and you have consistent thorn in the ass
but yea, this trip over stupidly long
from what i know the guttertank slip is only for violent difficulty and below so when brutal and UKMD come out the guttertank wont have the slip
The amount of markiplier punches I saw whiplashing to a Tank,
they also seem to have way too much to do from what it feels like,
they have three functions:
lay mines,
shoot mid-air stopping rockets (the stopping mid-air is something feeling like it comes out of nowhere)
and have a melee punch
if we compare this to sentries they have two
kick you away
and do a bunch of damage after a while,
so the tank having as much to do is one thing too much and having one be flawed is fine, which supposedly were the Rockets, so these are enemies you were supposed to keep your distance from.
if youtube existed back then, people would be arguing about the cyberdemon in doom like this
its probably no coincidence that the guttertank has some parallels with the cyberdemon's design
i think certain difficult enemies should be pre-nerf on violent and above, and should keep their nerfed versions on standard and below
"i always thought he fired donuts", donut mod when?
Just got to this level yesterday, I just didn't like how they would fling you super far away and make it hard to fight a group of them.
the thing with guttertanks is that pre nerf they were the exact same as mindflayers, in that they thrive at medium range, and ultrakill is a medium to close range game, so you go close to compensate, and then they punish you for it with a very hard to dodge mele attack. At least with mindflayers they a) give you a warning with the tp sound right next to you, and b) their main attack is parryable. Pre nerf guttertanks had that same problem, but with none of the countermeasures that make mindflayers feel fair once you understand them (assuming they don't tp next to you and then punish you for being close to them)
post nerf is much better, because now a) the advice you're given in the terminal actually works, and b) there's genuine counterplay that's not just "kill it or learn this one unintuitive one shot which goes against 80% of ultrakill's gameplay philosophy to implement"