Looks like I made a silly mistake with the scale diagram at 6:28... that's what I get for doing a rushed edit! Here's what it SHOULD look like - www.dropbox.com/s/mdikktgujqcbkxt/Ampent.png?dl=0
Very good video. Triads and intervals are key to understanding modal harmony. Too many kids trying to shred with 3nps scales and never understand what they are playing. This robotic , mindless playing is very rampant these days. Spread the word.
The major 6th interval, /13 is an avoid tension for a IIm7 chord, and is just wrong for VIm which would be flat 6/13 which is a flat 9 above the fifth, play this at your peril in a melody against a II/V progression as it suggests the V, in the IIm.
Ross Campbell Thanks for helping to give me the final moment of clarity that ended my overwhelm and my paralysis of analysis! I have a question about your first course: I am working through learning the keys/major scales, after having purchased your course. Regarding the major scale fingerings - there are multiple options for "boxed" patterns, CAGED and the ones you chose to use for your course being two of them. Is the reason you chose those specific fingerings that you never end up with some scale notes being "cut off the top" when it is played in the open position? With CAGED there are times that it would happen. For example, with CAGED pattern 1 where you typically finger the major scale root with your middle finger, played in E in the open position, the 3rd and 6th scale degrees would be "cut off". The positions you use look very similar to the ones used in the Berklee series (I saw their volume 1-3 collection on your bookshelf - I have it also). I don't know if they are the same, because I have only gone through volume 1 and a small amount of volume 2, 2 or 3 times now. I inevitably would start feeling like I'm wasting my time learning only the major scale and doing it slowly by sight reading. I am a huge Petrucci fan. It seemed to me that it would take AGES to learn modes and actually be able to see and understand his material on the guitar. I would then resume the never-ending search for a "better way". The combined wisdom of some things I have heard and read from Satriani and Petrucci, my own reasoning based on my theory and fretboard knowledge, and some of the things you have shown and talked about in your free content have triggered the "aha!!!" moment that I have needed for a LONG time. I started playing over 20 years ago, and only now do I see a clear path!
I have been playing for 27 years, and I did not learn theory first. I learned power chords and 3 note per string patterns. I have to say, I agree with everything you said. Theory of the fret board is way more important than the quick and easy way of feeling like you can play. It took me more years than it should to progress because I was, like you say, "stuck in a box." Thats a very Good point. People should spend more time in the class room first, because "Theory" is the Key to improvising. Finger strength and technique comes much faster than the knowledge of where to go, and why. Good video. Keep them coming.
This is so true. In my opinion, I think that it is necessary to know what are you actually playing instead of using shapes. I also believe that learning 3NPS, CAGED and knowing the intervals will help a guitar player understand scales, taking the good things out of each method! Very nice Ross!
Having spent more years than i care to admit stuck "in the box" and finally taking the time to learn the theory i totally agree with everything in this video. Once i learned the theory and where to find all the notes on the fret board it was like the training wheels came off and i was finally free. Great Video.
CAGED is great for learning the chord/scale roots and how to make a given chord/scale 5 different ways. Each shape also gives you the arpeggios as well but, imo, it's better at this point not to worry about the scales or arpeggios just yet. Learn the triad (M,m,dim,aug) inversions on each set of 3 strings so that you now you can make a chord (or dbl stops) 12 different ways. Along the way you'll learn where the 3 & 5 intervals lay. After this it's easy to add the other intervals. Understanding which intervals, by the sound you wish to hear, and how/where to play them is really the ultimate end goal. CAGED definitely has its place as a framework, but learning your triads will open up the entire neck much faster than practicing scales & arpeggios.
I've seen that discussed before. Do you have a link to a good lesson on that approach? I am having trouble organizing the double stops and chord scales in a usable way.
Hi. Good video. Good analysis. Good approach. Here's my take: When I started learning classical guitar many years ago I just learnt scales and arpeggios - 2 octaves - major and minor. I can't remember any such concept as the caged system. But there was a need for one generated by the question "how do I play the scale - 2 octaves - starting on any other note than the tonic?" basically this lead to the caged system and at some point I picked up on that idea. (To be honest I think I invented it myself and then found that other people were doing it.) So now I'm going up and down my scale, starting from any note I like. But the question is, "where the hell am I musically?" These patterns are just engineering - not fundamentally music. So this is what I do now: Let's say I'm playing in D. First I quickly review all the Ds on the instrument, then find the As. Now I'm oriented. Then I'll play a few riffs that I typically use. Like a slide from 5 to a natural 6, which is a note that stays in my mind very clearly (now I'm firmly in D maj). Then I'll try playing the melody and see how I can embellish it. Quickly the scale I'm in and its possibilities become clear to me, and the scale patterns become useful in moving around between the key notes that I'm using. To summarize (In my humble view and for what it's worth): scale patterns are useful but they are not music. They would be equally useful for the unfortunate tone def, or even for monkeys. What is needed is musical orientation. Finally: in my experience, most naturally good musicians don't realise that other people don't have their abilities. They assume that everyone is tonally gifted and can instantly recognize where they are. They then teach patterns, which never addresses the actual problem of musical orientation that most people actually face. Sorry to take so long. I hope this useful to someone, and I believe it will be. Cheers.
As a newbie guitar ( online lessons ) student, I find this topic very interesting. I come from a piano and cello background, where you learn note positions. I see the cello finger board the same as a piano keyboard. As progressions of notes to be played... use your most comfortable and efficient fingering. Now that I am being advised to learn the CAGED system... I am wondering: WHY SUCH A SYSTEM? I thought that I would JUST PLAY THE NOTES! Now, perhaps there are the most efficient fingerings to learn. But wouldn't this devolve to a PATTERN anyways?
I think about what i want to play in my head and then play it. And i listen to all different types of music ; horns, strings arabic, whatever. Never learnt scales ; saw a great tutorial with barney kessel many many years ago which really impacted. He said do'nt get hung up on scales, he said learn as many tunes as you can( tv theme tunes, carols, nursery ryhmes etc; and then teach yourself to play them all over neck in different positions) also play interesting chords and invent lines over that. That taught me melody which ive tried to incorporate into blues as well.
"A scale is not a shape. It's a formula". Truer words have never been spoken. Scale shapes increase thinking guitaristically and decrease thinking musically. SCALES, and understanding their composition, decrease your thinking guitaristically and increase your musicianship.
I found this video very helpful. I've been playing for over 30 years, know bunches of shapes and have progressed in technique but haven't progressed in my understanding of applied theory. It's hard to get past the "shapes" mentality. Maybe I'm one of the few, but I didn't think this video was needless at all. I recently found your channel and subscribed. I really like your content and teaching style, and your playing is very good. Keep it up!!!
Agree. I have picked up the guitar again after 20yrs and am determined not to repeat mistakes from the past. Now I have taught myself to pick up a scale from any location. It’s really cool to have freedom to move around based on root notes. As far as I have seen it is the best method. Shapes are a start but become largely irrelevant. Very important lesson this
This is a really intriguing video. You definitely got my brain working through your pros and cons of different methods. That said, I remain a strong advocate for players’ intro to scales/theory/technique being based upon 3 nps patterns and visual pattern recognition. What you describe as an alternative is incredibly valid, but as you suggested in a comment, it is less suited to beginners (if I understood correctly) and more at the intermediate-to-advanced skill level. But if someone is NOT a beginner, I would assume they already know enough about what a scale is and where to find notes associated with it to make the necessity for teaching in the way you described somewhat moot. The 3 nps approach is just so intuitive and efficient for creating a strong foundation upon which to build with other ideas, including what you suggest. When I first started, my teacher took an approach similar to yours and while he’s a wonderful teacher and very knowledgeable, attempting to learn in that way was far more confusing to me, at least. I’d be sitting there with a couple different scales shapes in the same position, wondering why there were such inconsistent groupings of notes on each string. 2 notes on one string, 3 on a couple others, maybe one note on one of them... didn’t make sense to me. Or why I would learn a scale (or fragment, imo) with the starting note on one of the middle strings. It was also clear pretty early that it wouldn’t allow for as much economy of motion in faster picking because of these irregular groupings of notes. But when I started learning more of a 3 nps approach, everything seemed much more obvious: memorize the specific position pattern of the scale with 3 nps, and work outward from there. Plus the fact that those shapes are so utterly movable and can also be used to really begin identifying modes seems to me to render this approach objectively superior to all others, at least for the beginner’s purposes. By no means though do I mean to suggest what you have here is bad information, and you did identify some very real setbacks that can befall many of us when we don’t explore further to really understand where notes and intervals occur and how to consider them beyond simple geometry and pattern memorization. But to do away with teaching 3 nps concepts is, in my opinion, inadvisable even if only on the grounds that huge numbers of guitar players today have built much of their musical understanding upon 3 nps concepts. But at the end of the day, all that matters is the player and what works for them on an individual level.
shapes are a part of guitar theory. muscle memory is a part of playing every instrument. it's not the shapes that hold some guitarists back, it's a lack of fretboard knowledge and scale knowledge
Same, and I don't really know anything other than some chords and shapes. Never done 3NPS, tho. I can't, it's physically impossible for me. But I do all the other stuff he mentions. It's much harder for older players.
I practice the 3 notes per string . I start from the top and end on various chordal tones. 1st, 3rd,5th all over the neck and that was great. Don't practice 3NPS by playing from top to down. Instead, target end on chordal tones on various parts of the neck and after sometime, u will begin to break free. After that I also use your cycle of 4 th method. Using different methods makes you understand the fret board very well.
I understand and completely agree with everything you said. You’re a great teacher, man. I appreciate you. As a professional player, composer and teacher myself, I would add that, only learning the 3notes per string method, might make you feel like you are getting off to a fast start, but with out theory and learning all the chord tones, you will plateau and struggle to make progress from there. 3 notes per string will only teach you how to play the guitar, but learning theory essentially teaches you how music works, and how to understand and then make the music you hear in your head, that applies to all instruments. In the long run it’s so much more beneficial to your artistry, creativity, and also your ability to quickly and authentically master several different genres. It’s what separates good players, from the Pro’s. It’s simply knowing what you’re doing and also WHY you’re doing it. It makes everything easier, and higher quality music, in the long run.
Such an enlightnening video. Just yesterday I was watching my favoorite guitarist play a chord progression without moving his hand, whereas I had been playing that same progression with a lot of unnecessary motion. Then I tried his way, and figured that it depends on, guess what, knowing the root notes in all the places.
I completely agree with you. When I started taking guitar lessons some decades ago, I was taught the 3NPS system. It was very good for shredding excercises. Then some years ago I started taking lessons with a Jazz professor, who taught me the "7 position system", which at first really annoyed me because I was so used to 3 NPS, but with time I understood it helped me to understand more about intervals, chords, etc.
Can you use the seven positions of the 3NPS scale? To be honest I didn’t understand his point t about 3NPs as the complaints he made were about how to use scales, not 3NPS…. And modes become so much clearer using the seven modes of the 3NPS
3 note per string is awesome. It is excellent for directional picking, integrating arpeggios, visualising intervals and changing modes as you solo. It is also good for legato and incorporating single string improvisation. it is perfect for playing scale sequences and it avoids using excessive tension. It is also great for a finger stretch and sorts out whether your fretting hand technique is correct. 3 note per string frees your mind so you can focus on creative playing, phrasing and lick variations. Also, when I went from 2-3 nps to 3 nps my speed doubled in a year. Its unreal! Now I am learning 4 nps. That opens a whole new world again. Keep practicing Ross!
Ross, just purchased BGP last night and jumped straight to the triad section as i was struggling with the way another teacher on Udemy was teaching them. You are absolutely thorough and straightened me out fast! Thank you! Just that alone was worth the purchase. In regard to the 3NPS i agree with you 100%, I have only been playing a year but started studying theory before i bought a guitar and the 3NPS never made sense to me, and i am not comfortable playing them. What i do see though, through a couple of friends that play them, they are pattern players and know very little theory. when i skimmed through your scale section last night it was a breath of fresh air to hear you say this! I still have a lot to learn but i will learn the rest from you at this point. A HUGE thank you! You are a great teacher! Your Fretboard memory technique is awesome too! I never used the chromatic approach, i just pluck All the A's then B's etc. but your method is even better! I will end rant here! Thanks a million!
Thank you so much! This is exactly what I wanted my students to feel like when I made this course so I'm very glad to hear that you're getting something from it already.
6 Stringz Hey, man. Also started guitar about one year ago and got into theory from the very start. Have watched countless UA-cam tutorials since then and find that the most overlooked aspect concerns rhythm and keeping proper time. This truly baffles me as not only is the vast majority of casual guitarists musically illiterate, many working guitarists (bar bands) can't even keep proper time...No amount of technical ability with fills, frills and solos will compensate for this kind of weakness bur very little attention seems given to it on UA-cam...Do you have any favorite channels or books you have found useful and enjoyable?
Love the open mind on display here! That's the real lesson. Thank you. Everything you say makes total sense to me, and having just spent the last month learning 3 NPS scales in different position - I completely see your point.
I really like your approach, but learning whole neck notes and various scales formulas to effortless level is too long an boring. For myself it was basically impossible, so I just slowly move from knowing E strings to A string (for obvious reasons), then to B string (using simple 3-note major and minor arpeggios with some simple songs). Hopefully some day I will memorize all 6 strings without excessive effort. But in defense of shape learning I can say that it was eye-opening for me (and still is) in many ways, once it all started to come together from different directions. Let me explain. 1. First learn C-major pentatonic with not 3 but 2 notes per string. It was already inspiring since no matter how simple it sounded - it sounded right. After years of knowing no better than cowboy chords I felt myself real musician! 2. Next I learn to move those shapes across neck from C (Am) or G (Em) positions which I played most while learning. No matter which tonality I have to play, knowing those Am and Em I can effortlessly move shapes and easily find all 5 boxes. 3. Then I started to add 2nd and 6th notes from minor scale, which were easiest to memorize when connected to those simple pentatonic boxes. And then came first shock: 4. It might be funny for you, but I noticed that across all 5tonic boxes there is simple pattern of boxes - 3 strings in a row with 2 semitone jumps, then 2 strings in a row with 3 semitone jumps. And it repeats again and again. Playing mostly in minor, I figured that "square box" is 4th-5th, then 7th-root, then 3rd-4th. "long box" is 5th-7th and next string root-3rd. With that I found myself INSTANTLY able to play desired scale step within any of pentatonic box. And otherwise I got ability to instantly "build" boxes around any note, if I knew which step it is. (After that I suddenly found out what word "diatonic" means, lol). 5. Next thing was realisation of relative positions of common chords and respective scale shapes (that is when I got interested in Hendrix tricks and found your video which was really impressive). It also opened my eyes on Frusciante licks in "Snow" for example, I was stunned by its simplicity. Seeing scales across all strings and frets became easy and natural. 6. And while all that progressed, I slowly memorized notes on more strings, found more relative shapes (for example all 3 inversions of major/minor triads across all string sets) and so on... I still need to memorize circle of 5/4, finish those 3 and 4 strings, work it out more to find every note/shape I want faster and with less effort... But now, when it came together from all different directions in big (but actually simple) puzzle, it will be easy. Just question of time while I can play, improvise and write music with deep understanding of what I do. Just with a bit slow processing. But brain will get trained eventually. Sorry for wall of text, but what I wanted to say is simple: your way of learning scales may be more effective, but sometimes it is better to take long way, biting small pieces which are easy to chew and that will keep student constantly excited.
Ross, your lessons are honest, concise yet full of useful information explained in an easy-to-grasp fashion. I've watched a few videos now and I'm loving your approach not only on the instrument but in methods of explaining also. 3nps helped me gain dexterity, apply accuracy and, in turn, speed in my early days of playing. Though, as you state correctly it did little good in applying theory and the knowledge to get around the neck with confidence. Subscribed a while ago and I may invest some time in your course, too. I appreciate your time sharing these nuggets of gold. All the best to you.
No video is too long when you are learning. This made so much sense and opened my eyes to much that I struggled with. I wish I had seen this many years ago.
Stumbled across ur channel last night and I’ve waited 90% of them I’m hooked... been playing for 20+ years and a student for the last 2 and you methods are making sense like never before... not uninteresting at all your modes video was fantastic!! Thanks for the knowledge!
I am a guitar teacher. I have been struggling on deciding how best to teach scales to my most advanced student. I really want him to be given the best possible methods, and not necessarily how I learned them. I greatly appreciate this input.
Thank very much for sharing this impotent knowledge! I stucked for years in that trap of nodeling random notes up and down the fretboard while drinking tons of coffee! You are a dam good teacher! :)
Anyone who finds this uninteresting isn't really interested in expanding their knowledge of the instrument! What you presented was well said, logical, and insightful! Certainly gave me some food for thought on how to view the fretboard a bit differently! And I ALWAYS appreciate an effective new perspective, in all things in my world! Cheers!
While demonstrating your method i'm quite sure you were thinking visually abt the 5 3NPS patterns but with the right understanding of it's use, and the minor pentatonic, and 3nps patterns(amongst other things, like chords tones) are at the base of a considerable number of guitar solos, i'd suggest you not skipping that step, rather give it the right purpose of just memorizing your fret board, then Visually identifying 4th 5th and octaves, and then you'll easily find your chord tones alongside any other note of the scale. You have also visually memorized all of your chords and intervals as moving shapes, twisting them up and using them interchangeably is what will get you out of your box, if you care to know
I learned theory 1st and when I was introduced to the 3NPS method. There is a lot of theory with Roots, Triads and Pentatonic Major and Minor off of the Circle of 4ths and 5ths that is not discussed as I can tell. Maybe I will step to the plate with a lesson. I am still getting it under my fingers. Kudos to your ability. It really worked nicely for me. I don't have to be lost anywhere on the neck. Any Key, Any String
Great video, been playing for more than 30 years, never used the 3 NPS method, but your approach to the subject was superb. Just subscribed to your channel, cause you really nailed the topic. Keep up the good work.
James Scott Nicholson, Ontario, Canada I have found that the three Per string pattern has opened my playing up immensely. But I was already well conditioned to all the notes on my fretboard, the three no per string pattern really broke me out of the boxes especially the five Pentatonics . But I agree with you it is very necessary to learn skills in all the positions like you said being able to play a scale anywhere that’s where I’m at I just spent this Covid period teaching myself theory, I’ve always been able to play anything I hear but never knew why or how I can happily say now that I’ve studied theory it’s made learning scale modes, triads chord inversions; arpeggios and everything else so much easier with the knowledge. Now everybody in my town or city I should say are talking about this amazing guitar player who plays 12 hours a day I’m on disability so I have that luxury but like I said when Covid hit I thought I might as well use the time to do something useful with my guitar playing thanks for listening
Interesting discussion. I am a beginner (maybe becoming intermediate now been playing for 2 1/2 years) and learned 3 nps. It was positive for me. Not from a theory perspective so much but the best thing was from practising those scales it builds up strength to get mainly my pinky working with the other fingers and has improved my lead playing a lot. Also as an introduction to how scales actually work and understand how say the 4th and 5th relate to the root note was extremely useful. I see what you are saying about been stuck in boxes and I would now like to learn how not to to be so stuck in the shapes I know. But I feel like the concepts you are talking about would have been to advanced for me when I started learning 3nps. I was feeling overwhelmed trying to understand so many concepts at that time. I think it is a good concept for beginners but I like this video as it has made me realise shapes are not the end game and there is still much work to do in this area :)
The thing that I have come to realize is that once you really have mastered a scale over the entire fretboard, you are free to choose to play it with however many notes across however many strings you want. As you master the scale, you break free of how you've broken it up to learn it, and can move freely through however many scale positions of whatever type you used to learn it, combining position shifts and slides as you see fit. The problem as I see it is what you described: It isn't the fact that players learn 3NPS patterns. Anyone can use a 3NPS pattern any time they want, whether or not that is the system they used to learn a scale across the fretboard. The problem is how they learn them, how they learn to apply them, and the fact that it is all they learn. The shapes themselves, the way they move diagonally, do make it difficult to connect those shapes to other ideas, like pentatonics. At least they do for me. I was told by a teacher once that it is better to learn the scale in more traditional box shapes (that use the pentatonic scale shapes as a framework) and then see 3nps fingerings as fingerings that connect through those shapes that you can use whenever needed.
@Ross: purchased your course yesterday. Must admit how you teach scales there is totally new to me. However it makes so much sense, as I'm one of those guys, who still gets stuck to the boxes. Great work, thank you so much 👍
As someone who has been "stuck in the box" for a while, this was a great video to watch. I've been starting down the path of 3 NPS, but this makes it clear that it's not the only improvements I will need to be focusing on.
I disagree with this video wholeheartedly. I think you mean JUST learning 3NPS and calling it good is probably bad. Here's the thing: 3NPS is great for technique: muscle memory, alternate picking, synching hands, etc. Also, the guitar is very pattern oriented: once you learn the 3NPS 7 major scale shapes, suddenly you know all the modes. Then you learn how these connect to the 5 pentatonic shapes & CAGED chord shapes. You can always go back and understand the theory with plenty of "Aha" moments. Getting some speed, improving technique & finding new ways to visualize the fretboard as a series of patterns builds confidence to KEEP GOING with guitar. Don't discourage that journey.
I practice 3nps in 16/s 12/8 9/8 1/8s I play each scale as a mode in all 12 keys in fourths up it works great the problem is people play as triplets or 6/8 and that is the problems learning where the accents are on the beat. I play all new scales in the cycle of IV's.
He's right in a lot of ways. Saying he's found a better way. Many of these videos is people hating on caged, and giving ignorant reasons why they like 3nps and shredding better. I guess it depends on what kind of guitar player you want to be. I fully agree with you on learning 3nps, and then using caged to get your chordal and arpeggio bearings. I believe both systems are great, and very valuable, and don't understand why people are wanting to hate on the others, and only accept 1 system of learning. I think it's because everyone wants to believe in 1, secret, all amazing trick to playing guitar. I knew 3nps forever, and was stuck forever. Then Guthrie Govan, turned me on to Caged, and through that, my understanding of theory and Ah Ha moments grew expedentially. Then, through theory, I moved to cycling, like he talks about here. So, I do see, where he's coming from, trying to create a way to skip the rest, and move to cycling. Being that you can get the most from it. But, like I said, the other 2 systems got me there, and for that reason I teach them first. The jazz greats, like Les Paul, and the session greats, like Karol Kaye, all learned through cycling, and for a songwriter, it's a terrific system. Paul Gilbert learned 3nps,.and shredded through the 80s. But even now, he's moved melodically to caged and his shapes, and can't believe he never understood the fretboard like that before. Then most of the Nashville greats, use Caged and the chord shapes for everything. So they'll all get you somewhere, but together, you can go anywhere. And I love your, "don't discourage the journey" comment. We should have a whole UA-cam series on that alone.
I didn’t misspell anything. I didn’t capitalize mr. because iI don’t give two fucks to. 😂 and know it all does not need the hyphen in a title name. Ya know it really shows that you’re a douche bag when you try to seem smart which you are not. I mean look at the garbage you’re passing off as some sort of break through. Take it light man.
This was extremely helpful! The issues you discuss about 3NPS are the very things that have left me in a rut. I found myself mindlessly playing shapes, and despite understanding the theory behind it I have had difficulty “playing outside of the box.” Now I realize there’s a way out. Thank you for making this 🙏
Whoa. I'm not a totally stuck in the box player myself, but I still have my comfort zones and comfortable ways of connecting them. I'm definitely going to be trying this out
Hey Ross. Keep it up my good fellow. I totally got your point and found it very useful. Intelligence is not learned and some people, no matter what you say, will not be able to understand. It's just the way it is so don't take offense or feel bad when someone tries to "correct you" or criticize what you are doing. I think you are doing your best and that's all we can do. Thanks for being a good guy and taking on the responsibility of putting your knowledge out there
Ross, thank you very much for this discussion. I have been on the cusp of this very realization, not just 3NPS, but everything. I decided to go back and learn each note, its location, its sound and its relationship within the Maj scale. Other people can go do whatever they want. I realized that visual patterns, I am not developing musically. Many of my very acrobatic runs, licks, --not musically interesting. When I simply resolve one to the Root or a 4th/5th, Wow.
3NPS was a revelation for me. I had already learned all the notes on the every fret/string. 3NPS enabled me to go across the fretboard fast and smootly, it also helped a very important aspect as well - playing on one string.
What you have described here is exactly where I am now. I know some shapes, but I don't understand them. I tried to understand Modes...well...I have failed so far. Now it is time for learning the fretboard properly :)
I'm the shapes guy, lol. I'm in rehab though. One redeeming benefit I got from practicing 3 Note per string patterns way too much is that they helped me develop an athletic fret hand. One huge epiphany I've had recently is one of intervals, and how it sounds more melodic to skip certain notes, the root for instance, instead of just playing as many notes as possible, lol. I still have so much to learn in the way of theory. Subscribing to channels like this and trying different guy's products has been doing me a lot of good, so don't be surprised if I buy yours next!
Good point Patrick - I hadn't thought about the technical benefits until now! To touch on what you mentioned about intervals, I recommend checking out a video of Allen Hinds being interviewed by Tim Pierce. Allen talks a bit about interesting ways to navigate the major scale by skipping notes, rather than just playing as many notes as possible, like you said.
imo 3nps are great but can also lead to bad habbits without any musical context and viewing them more like an exercises then you'll fall in that "shred" category. I had my students learn how to play the Pentatonic scale all across the fretboard by breaking them down into grouping of 4 notes. Those 4 note groupings create 5 shapes, so they're able to play relative major and minor. They could start on any position on any string and know where to go depending on harmonic contexts (chords or keys that a band are jamming in.) By the time they get to learning how to build triads and Diatonic theory, that's when the whole 3nps shapes come into play and those 7 different shapes it makes allow them to move any where they want. An example, that G major scale Ross plays as 3nps is basically going backwards but ascending by octaves. So breaking down 3nps into groups of 6 will give us 7 different ways to play a major scale or they could be 7 different scales with their own characteristics. It then becomes up to the player how they want to use them. Learning them as 3nps isn't a set in stone way of playing any scales. It's just as a means to keep things simple and once you get more and more familiar with the notes on the fretboard and diatonic theory the whole 3nps be come more like a guide. Just as we see shapes in sheet music we see shapes in on the fretboard. But if the student looks at these shapes thinking everything has to be in order of notes ascending or descending then that's where it becomes a bad habit.
Hey Ross, thank you so much for your statements! Your video is not an uninteresting video at all. I always had the suspicion that all those patterns are a method to avoid learning the fretboard, each note on every string, thoroughly. Since I am very interested in the theory, I first learned and explored the scales on paper and then applied them on the guitar. And then, I was asking myself why all the pattern gurus complicate everything. For me, learning patterns before learning the scales and each note on the fretboard is a way to avoid learning the theory. Once you know sclaes and your fretboard you do not need to learn patterns anymore,... it just complicates everything. Besides, when it comes to other scales than major or natural minor, like diminished or harmonic minor, you may get lost if you just learned patterns without knowing each note your playing. Thank you!
I returned to having lessons after a 7 year break (from lessons) with a new teacher. He taught 3 note per string patterns and it was new to me. As it was new it simply helped me see the fretboard in a new way and made it easier for me to move along the fretboard. So a positive experience for me mainly because it was just something new. He did describe each shape as a mode as you say but this is just a means to and ends. He emphasised that you can play a mode in any position. It also introduced me to legato playing which isn’t my thing really but I incorporate it from time to time. There is no perfect way and sometimes I feel for beginners relying on UA-cam as there is so much material it must be confusing. I really recommend going to a teacher if this is a possibility. You can’t beat it.
I think it's helpful to identify modes by the key centre. If I improvise over an Am7, I can use a G Major Scale if identified as 2nd Chord or Dorian, or F Major Scale if identified as 3rd Chord or Phrygian, or C Major Scale if identified as 6th chord or Aeolian.
Interesting video. I agree with the point you are trying to make regarding the patterns in 3NPS not being a good substitute for actual theory knowledge, but I still disagree when you suggest that 3NPS is a bad method of learning and shouldn't be used. I believe the 3NPS patterns are a great tool for finding your way around the fretboard, AS LONG as you study why the major scale works in the process (root note locations, major intervals, tonal resolution, etc.) I like to think of it as the 3NPS patterns being a scaffolding for learning the notes across the fretboard in each key. I know with certainty that I wouldn't have had the patience or motivation to learn the major scale across the fretboard in all keys by myself, since that is a very tedious process. If you are talking exclusively about 3NPS patterns being used as an entire substitution for learning theory, however, then we're on the same page.
This is exactly what I’ve been struggling with for the past year and a half. Not with the 3 note per string issue but more on the minor pentatonic side. Especially with position one. I’ve strictly learned off of UA-cam. I’ve tried taking lessons before and it just didn’t work out. I haven’t seen a video like this on UA-cam though and this was very helpful. Whenever I pick up my guitar the first thing I do is play riffs in position one and then try to incorporate the other positions but i always end up trying to picture the shapes as I run through licks and it ends up being very choppy. Looks like my next step is learning the roots for scales across the fret board.
Thanks Ross. You make perfect sense and you explained the rationale perfectly, saving me many lost hours as I was about to launch into a 3NPS learning frenzy… I guess 3NPS is the trap of searching for speed in a straight line rather than looking to be able to handle the curves. Knowing the notes and being able to play a scale anywhere on the neck - PLUS forming chords on the fly anywhere on the neck - is what your reasoning will lead to. Thanks again!
First, thanks for taking the time to post this. Analyzing different views is always helpful. While I agree with some of your points, one area I felt you left out is the development of muscle memory. That's part of the benefit of learning scales. It's the marriage of mental and muscle memorization. Think about when a child is first learning to their letters. You first have to memorize what each letter is (mental) and then you have to practice through repetition the writting of each letter (muscle). Soon you aren't consciousy telling your hand to write the letter. It "knows" whats to do from muscle memory. That's what we're all trying to get to with playing the guitar. I started with CAGED but have also learned 3NPS over the years. They both have their pros and cons. It really helps to learn both because it helps you break out of any "box" you've put yourself in. It provides a different approach which tends to unlock new doors.
As far as modes go, I’ve always liked the the way Gambale taught them in the 80’s by using the 4 and 5th triads from the parent scale and a pedal tone from the root of the mode, and making a vamp out of it which gives the tonal center so you can really hear it ie A pedal over A and B triads for A Lydian etc.
Not boring at all. I hung on to every word and concept. You're open minded which is really important in music. I want to learn how different people conceive the fret board. I love knowing how shredders view the fret board even if it's not how I ultimately want to view the fret board. This video lesson was thought provoking. Thanks
Not exactly boring Ross. It did open a couple ideas I have not thought of before. I did not learn using 3NPS and even though I have tried to use it, I dont care for it. I like blues and Rock and don't feel the need to shred even if 3NPS helps but i have noticed that I have a better understanding of the fret board because of the way I learned. At first I was taught like you explained of the modes being positional. Then when someone told me to just stay in the scale and start at the next interval and then the next it opened the whole fret board. I understood I could play modally anywhere at any time. So yes know the fret board is the number one thing for me. I hope people heard you and what you were saying.
incredible content Ross. Just bought the course. Rare to find someone so young who can explain things in such a clear and insightful manner. ok i'll hop off now haha
Bloody hell this is exactly what has happened to me! Stuck in first scale positions and just biffed off the daunting task of memorising every scale position in all 12 keys. Thank you so much mate seriously helping me out here
In fact just found your course and going to buy it! Been stuck in a rut with no discernible way out of understanding modes/ scales etc. I understand how they are formed tones/ semitones and the basic principles but the method of actually learning them all has been fucking with me since I started to play
I’ve been watching a lot of guitarists on UA-cam for some time now, unable to understand how they were playing the way they did. I have yet to see the patterns that I use on any video: which is starting from root note and ending on root note. Even though I knew each modes and their tonality, it seems like nothing really took off. But you mentioned I have never considered, as it turns out I’ve been only using the 2 E strings as a reference point for starting my scales, modes, and improvising leads. Never thought about the other 4 strings. So now I have something I can look forward to in my playing and progression. Thanks for the tip.
That perspective is crucial (using theory rather than pictures). This applies to every skill. Video is not long (to the point) and will open up new doors for me. One thing I learned years ago taught me a unique approach, using octaves and intervals in every possible way to teach the ear what each interval sounds like on its own.
I came to a lot of stuff the wrong way around, in that I picked up 3nps/alt picking after already noodling for many years, so relying on the shapes for note choice is less of an issue for me. I can understand the reasoning and reluctance to teach beginners 3nps though. All methods can be useful weapons in the arsenal.
All ways great to listen to you and your advice and experience. I know a few players who tell me they have 10-20+ years experience but it's usually 1 year 20 times over. Great stuff thanks Ross.
Thanks Ross, that tip about practicing the pentatonic scale in every key at one position is brilliant. Which I had thought of it years ago. Will become my next practice regime.
it's funny cause my problem as a guitarist right now is the opposite of most people. i learned theory first and now I'm cursing every guitar teacher I find on UA-cam cause they're communicating with shapes not theory or any actual way of using that stuff. all the stuff you talked about was very interesting and relevant man good info.
I use functional sounds to create formulas for scales, arpeggios and chord formulas. They are easy to learn and tell you the function of the note(s) you choose to play. Easy to map and see on the fretboard.
You're spot on with everything you said. And even as an ex 80s M.I. (GIT) Graduate you reminded me that I need to force myself to brush up again on learning/memorising the notes on the fretboard.... :O
A very interesting video... I have been playing rhythm guitar and writing songs for 25 years now and only this year decided to get my head around lead guitar and scales. I knew the usual pentatonics and the basic major scales but most of my writing and playing was by feel. I have to say though, I have been learning using an Udemy course that places 3NPS central to the theory and it has totally blown my mind! I have been doing extra work though by overlaying the CAGED patterns and chords into the 3NPS patterns which literally sent my brain into space. I am also interested in what you have to say to though and I think artists always find ways that are interesting to them and one should always follow the path of most interest, no matter where it leads. I think it is pretty fascinating blending various ways of viewing the fretboard together. Great video and insight though. Thanks ;-)
Great insight. I hope everyone understands that you're not downing other methods but showing some of the inherent pitfalls. 3nps can be a great piece of the puzzle as long as one knows that there are other pieces
I've been playing a while now and have sort of hit a wall. What you have described is exactly why I'm not getting better...I'm stuck in the box. Great explanation
This is a very good information. I’ve recently picked up the guitar again after 20 years and attempting to undo some of the issues I had learning. I think the point of this video is not to focus on the fingering system but the music. Know where the root notes, move freely around the guitar and deploy “shapes” when needed. Thats my takeaway from this and others on UA-cam.
Ok, I'm going to plug you, where I've not plugged other people who I massively respect, and who've put out tons of free content which I insanely appreciate... I've been doing online learning for about a year in my guitar journey. I've learned pentatonic shapes, and I've learned some songs and open chord shapes and barre chords but always felt like I didn't know what I was doing or understand what I was talking about. I saw your course for a low price and decided to take a risk. I'm less than 10 minutes into your course and already "GET" intervals. Your explanation is simple, your illustration on the neck using both the same string and the "block" of strings where you'd build a shape is brilliant. THANK YOU. I'm going to back to the course now, but I REALLY appreciate it. =)
By that reasoning, a student may become too dependent on anything they learn first. I learned how to play different scales in a single position and became dependant on it for a long time, not allowing myself to move around the fretboard. I was very grateful when I later learned 3NPS.
Interesting video. I have been playing for a long time, always learning, always open minded, a lot of fuss for new learners being trained to start off in certain patterns which I get. I think associating some of the talented guitarists out there who do what you state, be flexible, use the scales for improvising as you see fit, but expand, etc. I thankfully never learned from someone who tried to drill a technique into my playing, I think you make a good point about all of it at 6:00 to 06:30. Thanks for putting this together!
Ross, I think you hit the nail on the head. I, like yourself, started out learning 3NPS techniques, because it was the shortest path to what we considered impressive playing. Our nature is to take the path of least resistance, and shapes is much easier than learning the fretboard. One can also fall into the trap of playing a lot of triplet feel lines, over 4, which is extremely limiting in terms of phrasing. Branching out to 2NPS, or even an occasional 4NPS to climb vertical up the neck can definitely expand your library of tricks. Skipping stragegic notes in certain scales, then adding passing tones in others also make for more musical solos. At the end of the day all the theory is good for is actually training your ear to hear new sonic textures over particular chord arrangements. Once your mind is open to going to new places musically, it makes things much easier. My last comment is that practicing scales, and singing the notes is very helpful. If you can do that, you know where to go with your fingers instinctively, and it can help your improvisional skills immensely. Great job!
I first learned my scales 3nps. This definitely help me see how the wwhwwwh formula was used and how the minor scale was related and later all the modes. If this were where I stopped learning I could see it being a problem but eventually I learned scales all over the neck and when I started piano my understanding of music theory grew exponentially. I think there is a time and place for everything to be useful. That said, I never learned how to play 4ths in one position like that. Really awesome. So, that’s what I’m going to be working on for the next few weeks or months. Whatever it takes.
Spent decades learning and playing scales (with bad technique as well) exactly as you described, and have been trying to unlearn it for the last 5 years or so. You are an excellent teacher. Sure wish the internet and teachers like you had of been around when I first picked up a guitar and a Mel Bay chord book about 40 years ago. :)
Thanks 🙏. Great job. I went through the same experience as you. I’ve had to start over on guitar in my 30+years of playing and teaching. So you are on the right path. You’re a fine instructor... don’t stop. I agree with everything you’re saying. Cheers!
Seemlessly shifting through different scales at the same neck position ... ok. You got my attention. Picked up the course - which is a great deal at that price. Been stuck in the box forever. Wish me luck ....
When I started learning scales back in the 70's, I didn't even hear of the 3-NPS method for a long time, and I'm glad I didn't. What I've found that helps me, is to say out loud as you play the scale, the scale degrees. It's even better if you can sing them. It helped me to learn arpeggios easier, and of course, you'll know how to target certain chord tones better. It's great to know patterns, but you really need to dig deeper. Another great lesson, Ross. Thanks.
Dan Bromberg , if you're talking about the part starting at 7:12 isn't he playing B major at position #5 (though he plays the low 7th on a different string then I've learned), E major at position #3, A major @ position # 1, and D major @ position # 4? Which has the roots for B on strings 6/3/1, E on strings 5/2, A on strings 6/4/1, and D on strings 5/3? Please note the question marks as I'm also looking for verification on what I've worked out!
He did - learn to construct the scale not by using visual shapes but with the notes they have so that you can play across the neck.With that you can either create patterns from the different root positions or play runs from low to high.
I recommend doing what I did: Learning CAGED/ 3NPS scale patterns are just as important as learning theory and fretboard notes, in my opinion... But I learnt the latter first (I played classical guitar and took a lot of theory lessons).. after that I learnt CAGED/ 3NPS which 100% changed my fluidity. It allowed me to go on "auto pilot" for a bit when improvising as I didn't really have to think much and therefore gave me time to think of more meaningful notes to play.
@@cameronadams4366 Yes I agree once you understand theory, taking that theory and using a system that helps you use that theory and play it more easily and fluidly is great but teaching 3NPS to students and they just eat it up because they are playing fast makes it hard for them to ever really progress past speed and mechanics.
Hey Ross!!! Great topic!!! I actually have found a way to use these fingerings to an advantage by implementing the idea of using the root note associated with a certain finger. For instance I will tell a student if his/her 1st finger is on G, then B is played with the pinky. If his/her 2nd finger is on G, then his/her 1st finger on the next string is on B. This seems to help them visualize this by the aid of a piano keyboard diagram too. All of this is with the knowledge that our guitars are in standard tuning. I also teach my students to learn their modes with the same root and call out what Major Key they are playing in. So they will play G major and then go into G Dorian and my student will call out G Dorian- F Major all without leaving position fret 3 to fret 7. I hope this didn't seem like rambling but I totally agree with your point of view and I need to constantly practice my Circle of 4ths. I also worked on it in the circle of 5ths more. Hope you are doing well!! Have a blessed weekend!!
I would say alternating between 3 note and 2 note runs through scales with various embellishments, ascending and descending, at various tempos ensures that muscle memory is at Max Capacity. Without great technique, knowledge is just in your head. Improvisation means being able to use any technique at any time seamlessly. Easier finger positions, more precision, longer playing. With and Without a Pick.
Looks like I made a silly mistake with the scale diagram at 6:28... that's what I get for doing a rushed edit! Here's what it SHOULD look like - www.dropbox.com/s/mdikktgujqcbkxt/Ampent.png?dl=0
Thanks, just started learning the scales and thought maybe I'd missed something :)
After getting the jist of your excellent perspective on scales, I didn't even pay attention to the scale diagram nor the "mistake". lol
Very good video. Triads and intervals are key to understanding modal harmony. Too many kids trying to shred with 3nps scales and never understand what they are playing. This robotic , mindless playing is very rampant these days. Spread the word.
The major 6th interval, /13 is an avoid tension for a IIm7 chord, and is just wrong for VIm which would be flat 6/13 which is a flat 9 above the fifth, play this at your peril in a melody against a II/V progression as it suggests the V, in the IIm.
Ross Campbell Thanks for helping to give me the final moment of clarity that ended my overwhelm and my paralysis of analysis!
I have a question about your first course:
I am working through learning the keys/major scales, after having purchased your course. Regarding the major scale fingerings - there are multiple options for "boxed" patterns, CAGED and the ones you chose to use for your course being two of them. Is the reason you chose those specific fingerings that you never end up with some scale notes being "cut off the top" when it is played in the open position? With CAGED there are times that it would happen. For example, with CAGED pattern 1 where you typically finger the major scale root with your middle finger, played in E in the open position, the 3rd and 6th scale degrees would be "cut off".
The positions you use look very similar to the ones used in the Berklee series (I saw their volume 1-3 collection on your bookshelf - I have it also). I don't know if they are the same, because I have only gone through volume 1 and a small amount of volume 2, 2 or 3 times now. I inevitably would start feeling like I'm wasting my time learning only the major scale and doing it slowly by sight reading. I am a huge Petrucci fan. It seemed to me that it would take AGES to learn modes and actually be able to see and understand his material on the guitar. I would then resume the never-ending search for a "better way".
The combined wisdom of some things I have heard and read from Satriani and Petrucci, my own reasoning based on my theory and fretboard knowledge, and some of the things you have shown and talked about in your free content have triggered the "aha!!!" moment that I have needed for a LONG time. I started playing over 20 years ago, and only now do I see a clear path!
I have been playing for 27 years, and I did not learn theory first. I learned power chords and 3 note per string patterns. I have to say, I agree with everything you said. Theory of the fret board is way more important than the quick and easy way of feeling like you can play. It took me more years than it should to progress because I was, like you say, "stuck in a box." Thats a very Good point. People should spend more time in the class room first, because "Theory" is the Key to improvising. Finger strength and technique comes much faster than the knowledge of where to go, and why. Good video. Keep them coming.
Didn't think I was going to agree with this, but changed my mind. Great video!
This is so true. In my opinion, I think that it is necessary to know what are you actually playing instead of using shapes. I also believe that learning 3NPS, CAGED and knowing the intervals will help a guitar player understand scales, taking the good things out of each method! Very nice Ross!
Having spent more years than i care to admit stuck "in the box" and finally taking the time to learn the theory i totally agree with everything in this video. Once i learned the theory and where to find all the notes on the fret board it was like the training wheels came off and i was finally free. Great Video.
CAGED is great for learning the chord/scale roots and how to make a given chord/scale 5 different ways. Each shape also gives you the arpeggios as well but, imo, it's better at this point not to worry about the scales or arpeggios just yet. Learn the triad (M,m,dim,aug) inversions on each set of 3 strings so that you now you can make a chord (or dbl stops) 12 different ways. Along the way you'll learn where the 3 & 5 intervals lay. After this it's easy to add the other intervals. Understanding which intervals, by the sound you wish to hear, and how/where to play them is really the ultimate end goal. CAGED definitely has its place as a framework, but learning your triads will open up the entire neck much faster than practicing scales & arpeggios.
John Maloney I agree
Good tip! Thank you!
I've seen that discussed before. Do you have a link to a good lesson on that approach? I am having trouble organizing the double stops and chord scales in a usable way.
wow everything you said sounds to hard! lol
Hi. Good video. Good analysis. Good approach. Here's my take: When I started learning classical guitar many years ago I just learnt scales and arpeggios - 2 octaves - major and minor. I can't remember any such concept as the caged system. But there was a need for one generated by the question "how do I play the scale - 2 octaves - starting on any other note than the tonic?" basically this lead to the caged system and at some point I picked up on that idea. (To be honest I think I invented it myself and then found that other people were doing it.) So now I'm going up and down my scale, starting from any note I like. But the question is, "where the hell am I musically?" These patterns are just engineering - not fundamentally music.
So this is what I do now: Let's say I'm playing in D. First I quickly review all the Ds on the instrument, then find the As. Now I'm oriented. Then I'll play a few riffs that I typically use. Like a slide from 5 to a natural 6, which is a note that stays in my mind very clearly (now I'm firmly in D maj). Then I'll try playing the melody and see how I can embellish it. Quickly the scale I'm in and its possibilities become clear to me, and the scale patterns become useful in moving around between the key notes that I'm using.
To summarize (In my humble view and for what it's worth): scale patterns are useful but they are not music. They would be equally useful for the unfortunate tone def, or even for monkeys. What is needed is musical orientation.
Finally: in my experience, most naturally good musicians don't realise that other people don't have their abilities. They assume that everyone is tonally gifted and can instantly recognize where they are. They then teach patterns, which never addresses the actual problem of musical orientation that most people actually face.
Sorry to take so long. I hope this useful to someone, and I believe it will be.
Cheers.
As a newbie guitar ( online lessons ) student, I find this topic very interesting. I come from a piano and cello background, where you learn note positions. I see the cello finger board the same as a piano keyboard. As progressions of notes to be played... use your most comfortable and efficient fingering. Now that I am being advised to learn the CAGED system... I am wondering: WHY SUCH A SYSTEM? I thought that I would JUST PLAY THE NOTES! Now, perhaps there are the most efficient fingerings to learn. But wouldn't this devolve to a PATTERN anyways?
I think about what i want to play in my head and then play it. And i listen to all different types of music ; horns, strings arabic, whatever. Never learnt scales ; saw a great tutorial with barney kessel many many years ago which really impacted. He said do'nt get hung up on scales, he said learn as many tunes as you can( tv theme tunes, carols, nursery ryhmes etc; and then teach yourself to play them all over neck in different positions) also play interesting chords and invent lines over that. That taught me melody which ive tried to incorporate into blues as well.
Nice to see a young guy that understand music. On the guitar player family it's something that normally comes later on. Congratulations nice job
"A scale is not a shape. It's a formula". Truer words have never been spoken. Scale shapes increase thinking guitaristically and decrease thinking musically. SCALES, and understanding their composition, decrease your thinking guitaristically and increase your musicianship.
I found this video very helpful. I've been playing for over 30 years, know bunches of shapes and have progressed in technique but haven't progressed in my understanding of applied theory. It's hard to get past the "shapes" mentality.
Maybe I'm one of the few, but I didn't think this video was needless at all. I recently found your channel and subscribed. I really like your content and teaching style, and your playing is very good. Keep it up!!!
Agree. I have picked up the guitar again after 20yrs and am determined not to repeat mistakes from the past. Now I have taught myself to pick up a scale from any location. It’s really cool to have freedom to move around based on root notes. As far as I have seen it is the best method. Shapes are a start but become largely irrelevant. Very important lesson this
This is a really intriguing video. You definitely got my brain working through your pros and cons of different methods. That said, I remain a strong advocate for players’ intro to scales/theory/technique being based upon 3 nps patterns and visual pattern recognition. What you describe as an alternative is incredibly valid, but as you suggested in a comment, it is less suited to beginners (if I understood correctly) and more at the intermediate-to-advanced skill level. But if someone is NOT a beginner, I would assume they already know enough about what a scale is and where to find notes associated with it to make the necessity for teaching in the way you described somewhat moot. The 3 nps approach is just so intuitive and efficient for creating a strong foundation upon which to build with other ideas, including what you suggest. When I first started, my teacher took an approach similar to yours and while he’s a wonderful teacher and very knowledgeable, attempting to learn in that way was far more confusing to me, at least. I’d be sitting there with a couple different scales shapes in the same position, wondering why there were such inconsistent groupings of notes on each string. 2 notes on one string, 3 on a couple others, maybe one note on one of them... didn’t make sense to me. Or why I would learn a scale (or fragment, imo) with the starting note on one of the middle strings. It was also clear pretty early that it wouldn’t allow for as much economy of motion in faster picking because of these irregular groupings of notes. But when I started learning more of a 3 nps approach, everything seemed much more obvious: memorize the specific position pattern of the scale with 3 nps, and work outward from there. Plus the fact that those shapes are so utterly movable and can also be used to really begin identifying modes seems to me to render this approach objectively superior to all others, at least for the beginner’s purposes. By no means though do I mean to suggest what you have here is bad information, and you did identify some very real setbacks that can befall many of us when we don’t explore further to really understand where notes and intervals occur and how to consider them beyond simple geometry and pattern memorization. But to do away with teaching 3 nps concepts is, in my opinion, inadvisable even if only on the grounds that huge numbers of guitar players today have built much of their musical understanding upon 3 nps concepts. But at the end of the day, all that matters is the player and what works for them on an individual level.
shapes are a part of guitar theory. muscle memory is a part of playing every instrument. it's not the shapes that hold some guitarists back, it's a lack of fretboard knowledge and scale knowledge
I just found my next thing to study. Thanks for clarifying this better, I've been stuck in A D and E for years..
Not uninteresting at all. I've been playing for the past 30 years and you've given me food for thought.
Good to hear Sandy :)
Ditto for me.
Ditto
Same, and I don't really know anything other than some chords and shapes. Never done 3NPS, tho. I can't, it's physically impossible for me. But I do all the other stuff he mentions.
It's much harder for older players.
I practice the 3 notes per string . I start from the top and end on various chordal tones. 1st, 3rd,5th all over the neck and that was great. Don't practice 3NPS by playing from top to down. Instead, target end on chordal tones on various parts of the neck and after sometime, u will begin to break free. After that I also use your cycle of 4 th method. Using different methods makes you understand the fret board very well.
I understand and completely agree with everything you said. You’re a great teacher, man. I appreciate you.
As a professional player, composer and teacher myself, I would add that, only learning the 3notes per string method, might make you feel like you are getting off to a fast start, but with out theory and learning all the chord tones, you will plateau and struggle to make progress from there.
3 notes per string will only teach you how to play the guitar, but learning theory essentially teaches you how music works, and how to understand and then make the music you hear in your head, that applies to all instruments. In the long run it’s so much more beneficial to your artistry, creativity, and also your ability to quickly and authentically master several different genres. It’s what separates good players, from the Pro’s. It’s simply knowing what you’re doing and also WHY you’re doing it. It makes everything easier, and higher quality music, in the long run.
This.
Ross you're a great teacher. Love your work mate
Thanks! Cool name dude.
Such an enlightnening video. Just yesterday I was watching my favoorite guitarist play a chord progression without moving his hand, whereas I had been playing that same progression with a lot of unnecessary motion. Then I tried his way, and figured that it depends on, guess what, knowing the root notes in all the places.
I completely agree with you. When I started taking guitar lessons some decades ago, I was taught the 3NPS system. It was very good for shredding excercises. Then some years ago I started taking lessons with a Jazz professor, who taught me the "7 position system", which at first really annoyed me because I was so used to 3 NPS, but with time I understood it helped me to understand more about intervals, chords, etc.
Can you use the seven positions of the 3NPS scale? To be honest I didn’t understand his point t about 3NPs as the complaints he made were about how to use scales, not 3NPS…. And modes become so much clearer using the seven modes of the 3NPS
3 note per string is awesome. It is excellent for directional picking, integrating arpeggios, visualising intervals and changing modes as you solo. It is also good for legato and incorporating single string improvisation. it is perfect for playing scale sequences and it avoids using excessive tension. It is also great for a finger stretch and sorts out whether your fretting hand technique is correct. 3 note per string frees your mind so you can focus on creative playing, phrasing and lick variations. Also, when I went from 2-3 nps to 3 nps my speed doubled in a year. Its unreal! Now I am learning 4 nps. That opens a whole new world again. Keep practicing Ross!
I struggle to find a good 3nps course though... :(
@johanndaart7326 the UA-cam channel Fret Science has a great series of videos on it.
Ross, just purchased BGP last night and jumped straight to the triad section as i was struggling with the way another teacher on Udemy was teaching them. You are absolutely thorough and straightened me out fast! Thank you! Just that alone was worth the purchase. In regard to the 3NPS i agree with you 100%, I have only been playing a year but started studying theory before i bought a guitar and the 3NPS never made sense to me, and i am not comfortable playing them. What i do see though, through a couple of friends that play them, they are pattern players and know very little theory. when i skimmed through your scale section last night it was a breath of fresh air to hear you say this! I still have a lot to learn but i will learn the rest from you at this point. A HUGE thank you! You are a great teacher! Your Fretboard memory technique is awesome too! I never used the chromatic approach, i just pluck All the A's then B's etc. but your method is even better! I will end rant here! Thanks a million!
Thank you so much! This is exactly what I wanted my students to feel like when I made this course so I'm very glad to hear that you're getting something from it already.
6 Stringz Hey, man. Also started guitar about one year ago and got into theory from the very start. Have watched countless UA-cam tutorials since then and find that the most overlooked aspect concerns rhythm and keeping proper time. This truly baffles me as not only is the vast majority of casual guitarists musically illiterate, many working guitarists (bar bands) can't even keep proper time...No amount of technical ability with fills, frills and solos will compensate for this kind of weakness bur very little attention seems given to it on UA-cam...Do you have any favorite channels or books you have found useful and enjoyable?
Very honest discussion here. My new favourite guitar channel for sure. Keep rocking
Love the open mind on display here! That's the real lesson. Thank you. Everything you say makes total sense to me, and having just spent the last month learning 3 NPS scales in different position - I completely see your point.
I really like your approach, but learning whole neck notes and various scales formulas to effortless level is too long an boring. For myself it was basically impossible, so I just slowly move from knowing E strings to A string (for obvious reasons), then to B string (using simple 3-note major and minor arpeggios with some simple songs). Hopefully some day I will memorize all 6 strings without excessive effort.
But in defense of shape learning I can say that it was eye-opening for me (and still is) in many ways, once it all started to come together from different directions. Let me explain.
1. First learn C-major pentatonic with not 3 but 2 notes per string. It was already inspiring since no matter how simple it sounded - it sounded right. After years of knowing no better than cowboy chords I felt myself real musician!
2. Next I learn to move those shapes across neck from C (Am) or G (Em) positions which I played most while learning. No matter which tonality I have to play, knowing those Am and Em I can effortlessly move shapes and easily find all 5 boxes.
3. Then I started to add 2nd and 6th notes from minor scale, which were easiest to memorize when connected to those simple pentatonic boxes. And then came first shock:
4. It might be funny for you, but I noticed that across all 5tonic boxes there is simple pattern of boxes - 3 strings in a row with 2 semitone jumps, then 2 strings in a row with 3 semitone jumps. And it repeats again and again. Playing mostly in minor, I figured that "square box" is 4th-5th, then 7th-root, then 3rd-4th. "long box" is 5th-7th and next string root-3rd. With that I found myself INSTANTLY able to play desired scale step within any of pentatonic box. And otherwise I got ability to instantly "build" boxes around any note, if I knew which step it is. (After that I suddenly found out what word "diatonic" means, lol).
5. Next thing was realisation of relative positions of common chords and respective scale shapes (that is when I got interested in Hendrix tricks and found your video which was really impressive). It also opened my eyes on Frusciante licks in "Snow" for example, I was stunned by its simplicity. Seeing scales across all strings and frets became easy and natural.
6. And while all that progressed, I slowly memorized notes on more strings, found more relative shapes (for example all 3 inversions of major/minor triads across all string sets) and so on...
I still need to memorize circle of 5/4, finish those 3 and 4 strings, work it out more to find every note/shape I want faster and with less effort... But now, when it came together from all different directions in big (but actually simple) puzzle, it will be easy. Just question of time while I can play, improvise and write music with deep understanding of what I do. Just with a bit slow processing. But brain will get trained eventually.
Sorry for wall of text, but what I wanted to say is simple: your way of learning scales may be more effective, but sometimes it is better to take long way, biting small pieces which are easy to chew and that will keep student constantly excited.
Ross, your lessons are honest, concise yet full of useful information explained in an easy-to-grasp fashion. I've watched a few videos now and I'm loving your approach not only on the instrument but in methods of explaining also. 3nps helped me gain dexterity, apply accuracy and, in turn, speed in my early days of playing. Though, as you state correctly it did little good in applying theory and the knowledge to get around the neck with confidence. Subscribed a while ago and I may invest some time in your course, too. I appreciate your time sharing these nuggets of gold. All the best to you.
No video is too long when you are learning. This made so much sense and opened my eyes to much that I struggled with. I wish I had seen this many years ago.
Stumbled across ur channel last night and I’ve waited 90% of them I’m hooked... been playing for 20+ years and a student for the last 2 and you methods are making sense like never before... not uninteresting at all your modes video was fantastic!! Thanks for the knowledge!
I am a guitar teacher. I have been struggling on deciding how best to teach scales to my most advanced student. I really want him to be given the best possible methods, and not necessarily how I learned them. I greatly appreciate this input.
Thank very much for sharing this impotent knowledge! I stucked for years in that trap of nodeling random notes up and down the fretboard while drinking tons of coffee! You are a dam good teacher! :)
Anyone who finds this uninteresting isn't really interested in expanding their knowledge of the instrument! What you presented was well said, logical, and insightful! Certainly gave me some food for thought on how to view the fretboard a bit differently! And I ALWAYS appreciate an effective new perspective, in all things in my world! Cheers!
While demonstrating your method i'm quite sure you were thinking visually abt the 5 3NPS patterns but with the right understanding of it's use, and the minor pentatonic, and 3nps patterns(amongst other things, like chords tones) are at the base of a considerable number of guitar solos, i'd suggest you not skipping that step, rather give it the right purpose of just memorizing your fret board, then Visually identifying 4th 5th and octaves, and then you'll easily find your chord tones alongside any other note of the scale. You have also visually memorized all of your chords and intervals as moving shapes, twisting them up and using them interchangeably is what will get you out of your box, if you care to know
The nice thing about 3nps patterns is that you have 7 of them instead of the 5 basic CAGED-patterns.
Ross, your instruction is helping me understand the process of things that I can't put together, although I seem close. Thank you!💯
I learned theory 1st and when I was introduced to the 3NPS method. There is a lot of theory with Roots, Triads and Pentatonic Major and Minor off of the Circle of 4ths and 5ths that is not discussed as I can tell. Maybe I will step to the plate with a lesson. I am still getting it under my fingers.
Kudos to your ability.
It really worked nicely for me.
I don't have to be lost anywhere on the neck.
Any Key, Any String
Great video, been playing for more than 30 years, never used the 3 NPS method, but your approach to the subject was superb. Just subscribed to your channel, cause you really nailed the topic. Keep up the good work.
Been playing for a long time and found this a really important next step in my learning...
It was definitely worth posting this video...you make many good points, and I did get a lot out of it. Thanks
Same thing I learned at university when I studied jazz. Learning how to solo over chord changes forces you to see scales everywhere on the neck
James Scott Nicholson, Ontario, Canada I have found that the three Per string pattern has opened my playing up
immensely. But I was already well conditioned to all the notes on my fretboard, the three no per string pattern really broke me out of the boxes especially the five Pentatonics . But I agree with you it is very necessary to learn skills in all the positions like you said being able to play a scale anywhere that’s where I’m at I just spent this Covid period teaching myself theory, I’ve always been able to play anything I hear but never knew why or how I can happily say now that I’ve studied theory it’s made learning scale modes, triads chord inversions; arpeggios and everything else so much easier with the knowledge. Now everybody in my town or city I should say are talking about this amazing guitar player who plays 12 hours a day I’m on disability so I have that luxury but like I said when Covid hit I thought I might as well use the time to do something useful with my guitar playing thanks for listening
Interesting discussion. I am a beginner (maybe becoming intermediate now been playing for 2 1/2 years) and learned 3 nps. It was positive for me. Not from a theory perspective so much but the best thing was from practising those scales it builds up strength to get mainly my pinky working with the other fingers and has improved my lead playing a lot. Also as an introduction to how scales actually work and understand how say the 4th and 5th relate to the root note was extremely useful. I see what you are saying about been stuck in boxes and I would now like to learn how not to to be so stuck in the shapes I know. But I feel like the concepts you are talking about would have been to advanced for me when I started learning 3nps. I was feeling overwhelmed trying to understand so many concepts at that time. I think it is a good concept for beginners but I like this video as it has made me realise shapes are not the end game and there is still much work to do in this area :)
The thing that I have come to realize is that once you really have mastered a scale over the entire fretboard, you are free to choose to play it with however many notes across however many strings you want. As you master the scale, you break free of how you've broken it up to learn it, and can move freely through however many scale positions of whatever type you used to learn it, combining position shifts and slides as you see fit.
The problem as I see it is what you described: It isn't the fact that players learn 3NPS patterns. Anyone can use a 3NPS pattern any time they want, whether or not that is the system they used to learn a scale across the fretboard. The problem is how they learn them, how they learn to apply them, and the fact that it is all they learn. The shapes themselves, the way they move diagonally, do make it difficult to connect those shapes to other ideas, like pentatonics. At least they do for me. I was told by a teacher once that it is better to learn the scale in more traditional box shapes (that use the pentatonic scale shapes as a framework) and then see 3nps fingerings as fingerings that connect through those shapes that you can use whenever needed.
@Ross: purchased your course yesterday. Must admit how you teach scales there is totally new to me. However it makes so much sense, as I'm one of those guys, who still gets stuck to the boxes. Great work, thank you so much 👍
As someone who has been "stuck in the box" for a while, this was a great video to watch. I've been starting down the path of 3 NPS, but this makes it clear that it's not the only improvements I will need to be focusing on.
I disagree with this video wholeheartedly. I think you mean JUST learning 3NPS and calling it good is probably bad. Here's the thing: 3NPS is great for technique: muscle memory, alternate picking, synching hands, etc. Also, the guitar is very pattern oriented: once you learn the 3NPS 7 major scale shapes, suddenly you know all the modes. Then you learn how these connect to the 5 pentatonic shapes & CAGED chord shapes. You can always go back and understand the theory with plenty of "Aha" moments. Getting some speed, improving technique & finding new ways to visualize the fretboard as a series of patterns builds confidence to KEEP GOING with guitar. Don't discourage that journey.
I practice 3nps in 16/s 12/8 9/8 1/8s I play each scale as a mode in all 12 keys in fourths up it works great the problem is people play as triplets or 6/8 and that is the problems learning where the accents are on the beat.
I play all new scales in the cycle of IV's.
Instinctual Beasts I agree!!! Learning scale, chord, and arpeggio “shapes” as well as the connecting theory is a must. Not one or the other, but BOTH.
You are exactly right man. This dude is really a conceded young mr know it all.
He's right in a lot of ways. Saying he's found a better way. Many of these videos is people hating on caged, and giving ignorant reasons why they like 3nps and shredding better. I guess it depends on what kind of guitar player you want to be. I fully agree with you on learning 3nps, and then using caged to get your chordal and arpeggio bearings. I believe both systems are great, and very valuable, and don't understand why people are wanting to hate on the others, and only accept 1 system of learning. I think it's because everyone wants to believe in 1, secret, all amazing trick to playing guitar. I knew 3nps forever, and was stuck forever. Then Guthrie Govan, turned me on to Caged, and through that, my understanding of theory and Ah Ha moments grew expedentially. Then, through theory, I moved to cycling, like he talks about here. So, I do see, where he's coming from, trying to create a way to skip the rest, and move to cycling. Being that you can get the most from it. But, like I said, the other 2 systems got me there, and for that reason I teach them first. The jazz greats, like Les Paul, and the session greats, like Karol Kaye, all learned through cycling, and for a songwriter, it's a terrific system. Paul Gilbert learned 3nps,.and shredded through the 80s. But even now, he's moved melodically to caged and his shapes, and can't believe he never understood the fretboard like that before. Then most of the Nashville greats, use Caged and the chord shapes for everything. So they'll all get you somewhere, but together, you can go anywhere. And I love your, "don't discourage the journey" comment. We should have a whole UA-cam series on that alone.
I didn’t misspell anything. I didn’t capitalize mr. because iI don’t give two fucks to. 😂 and know it all does not need the hyphen in a title name. Ya know it really shows that you’re a douche bag when you try to seem smart which you are not. I mean look at the garbage you’re passing off as some sort of break through. Take it light man.
This was extremely helpful! The issues you discuss about 3NPS are the very things that have left me in a rut. I found myself mindlessly playing shapes, and despite understanding the theory behind it I have had difficulty “playing outside of the box.” Now I realize there’s a way out. Thank you for making this 🙏
Thanks Ross. Exactly what I needed to see and what I need to start learning to be more fluent with the fretboard. Thanks Dolph J
The idea of it causing memorization of visual shapes and not theory is SPOT ON. Great job!
Whoa. I'm not a totally stuck in the box player myself, but I still have my comfort zones and comfortable ways of connecting them. I'm definitely going to be trying this out
Hey Ross. Keep it up my good fellow. I totally got your point and found it very useful. Intelligence is not learned and some people, no matter what you say, will not be able to understand. It's just the way it is so don't take offense or feel bad when someone tries to "correct you" or criticize what you are doing. I think you are doing your best and that's all we can do. Thanks for being a good guy and taking on the responsibility of putting your knowledge out there
Much appreciated mate, thank you!
Ross, thank you very much for this discussion. I have been on the cusp of this very realization, not just 3NPS, but everything. I decided to go back and learn each note, its location, its sound and its relationship within the Maj scale. Other people can go do whatever they want.
I realized that visual patterns, I am not developing musically. Many of my very acrobatic runs, licks, --not musically interesting. When I simply resolve one to the Root or a 4th/5th, Wow.
Not sure why comment truncated, but I was saying when I resolve a run, lick or such to the Root, a IV, V --this gets nice sounding.
3NPS was a revelation for me. I had already learned all the notes on the every fret/string. 3NPS enabled me to go across the fretboard fast and smootly, it also helped a very important aspect as well - playing on one string.
Excellent teaching, Ross. Thank you for not only giving insight to your approach but the rationale behind it.
What you have described here is exactly where I am now. I know some shapes, but I don't understand them. I tried to understand Modes...well...I have failed so far. Now it is time for learning the fretboard properly :)
I'm the shapes guy, lol. I'm in rehab though. One redeeming benefit I got from practicing 3 Note per string patterns way too much is that they helped me develop an athletic fret hand.
One huge epiphany I've had recently is one of intervals, and how it sounds more melodic to skip certain notes, the root for instance, instead of just playing as many notes as possible, lol. I still have so much to learn in the way of theory. Subscribing to channels like this and trying different guy's products has been doing me a lot of good, so don't be surprised if I buy yours next!
Good point Patrick - I hadn't thought about the technical benefits until now!
To touch on what you mentioned about intervals, I recommend checking out a video of Allen Hinds being interviewed by Tim Pierce. Allen talks a bit about interesting ways to navigate the major scale by skipping notes, rather than just playing as many notes as possible, like you said.
imo 3nps are great but can also lead to bad habbits without any musical context and viewing them more like an exercises then you'll fall in that "shred" category. I had my students learn how to play the Pentatonic scale all across the fretboard by breaking them down into grouping of 4 notes. Those 4 note groupings create 5 shapes, so they're able to play relative major and minor. They could start on any position on any string and know where to go depending on harmonic contexts (chords or keys that a band are jamming in.) By the time they get to learning how to build triads and Diatonic theory, that's when the whole 3nps shapes come into play and those 7 different shapes it makes allow them to move any where they want.
An example, that G major scale Ross plays as 3nps is basically going backwards but ascending by octaves. So breaking down 3nps into groups of 6 will give us 7 different ways to play a major scale or they could be 7 different scales with their own characteristics. It then becomes up to the player how they want to use them. Learning them as 3nps isn't a set in stone way of playing any scales. It's just as a means to keep things simple and once you get more and more familiar with the notes on the fretboard and diatonic theory the whole 3nps be come more like a guide. Just as we see shapes in sheet music we see shapes in on the fretboard. But if the student looks at these shapes thinking everything has to be in order of notes ascending or descending then that's where it becomes a bad habit.
Hey Ross, thank you so much for your statements! Your video is not an uninteresting video at all. I always had the suspicion that all those patterns are a method to avoid learning the fretboard, each note on every string, thoroughly. Since I am very interested in the theory, I first learned and explored the scales on paper and then applied them on the guitar. And then, I was asking myself why all the pattern gurus complicate everything. For me, learning patterns before learning the scales and each note on the fretboard is a way to avoid learning the theory. Once you know sclaes and your fretboard you do not need to learn patterns anymore,... it just complicates everything. Besides, when it comes to other scales than major or natural minor, like diminished or harmonic minor, you may get lost if you just learned patterns without knowing each note your playing. Thank you!
I returned to having lessons after a 7 year break (from lessons) with a new teacher. He taught 3 note per string patterns and it was new to me. As it was new it simply helped me see the fretboard in a new way and made it easier for me to move along the fretboard. So a positive experience for me mainly because it was just something new. He did describe each shape as a mode as you say but this is just a means to and ends. He emphasised that you can play a mode in any position. It also introduced me to legato playing which isn’t my thing really but I incorporate it from time to time. There is no perfect way and sometimes I feel for beginners relying on UA-cam as there is so much material it must be confusing. I really recommend going to a teacher if this is a possibility. You can’t beat it.
I think it's helpful to identify modes by the key centre. If I improvise over an Am7, I can use a G Major Scale if identified as 2nd Chord or Dorian, or F Major Scale if identified as 3rd Chord or Phrygian, or C Major Scale if identified as 6th chord or Aeolian.
Interesting video. I agree with the point you are trying to make regarding the patterns in 3NPS not being a good substitute for actual theory knowledge, but I still disagree when you suggest that 3NPS is a bad method of learning and shouldn't be used. I believe the 3NPS patterns are a great tool for finding your way around the fretboard, AS LONG as you study why the major scale works in the process (root note locations, major intervals, tonal resolution, etc.) I like to think of it as the 3NPS patterns being a scaffolding for learning the notes across the fretboard in each key. I know with certainty that I wouldn't have had the patience or motivation to learn the major scale across the fretboard in all keys by myself, since that is a very tedious process.
If you are talking exclusively about 3NPS patterns being used as an entire substitution for learning theory, however, then we're on the same page.
Very impressed with your to the point for valuable information. Great work and I look forward to checking out all your work.
This is exactly what I’ve been struggling with for the past year and a half. Not with the 3 note per string issue but more on the minor pentatonic side. Especially with position one. I’ve strictly learned off of UA-cam. I’ve tried taking lessons before and it just didn’t work out. I haven’t seen a video like this on UA-cam though and this was very helpful. Whenever I pick up my guitar the first thing I do is play riffs in position one and then try to incorporate the other positions but i always end up trying to picture the shapes as I run through licks and it ends up being very choppy. Looks like my next step is learning the roots for scales across the fret board.
Trying do different of shapes, is really hard,but you're totally right, I've just knew the visual shapes, and this is not enough... Thanks guy
Thanks Ross. You make perfect sense and you explained the rationale perfectly, saving me many lost hours as I was about to launch into a 3NPS learning frenzy…
I guess 3NPS is the trap of searching for speed in a straight line rather than looking to be able to handle the curves. Knowing the notes and being able to play a scale anywhere on the neck - PLUS forming chords on the fly anywhere on the neck - is what your reasoning will lead to.
Thanks again!
First, thanks for taking the time to post this. Analyzing different views is always helpful.
While I agree with some of your points, one area I felt you left out is the development of muscle memory. That's part of the benefit of learning scales. It's the marriage of mental and muscle memorization. Think about when a child is first learning to their letters. You first have to memorize what each letter is (mental) and then you have to practice through repetition the writting of each letter (muscle). Soon you aren't consciousy telling your hand to write the letter. It "knows" whats to do from muscle memory. That's what we're all trying to get to with playing the guitar.
I started with CAGED but have also learned 3NPS over the years. They both have their pros and cons. It really helps to learn both because it helps you break out of any "box" you've put yourself in. It provides a different approach which tends to unlock new doors.
As far as modes go, I’ve always liked the the way Gambale taught them in the 80’s by using the 4 and 5th triads from the parent scale and a pedal tone from the root of the mode, and making a vamp out of it which gives the tonal center so you can really hear it ie A pedal over A and B triads for A Lydian etc.
Not boring at all. I hung on to every word and concept. You're open minded which is really important in music. I want to learn how different people conceive the fret board. I love knowing how shredders view the fret board even if it's not how I ultimately want to view the fret board. This video lesson was thought provoking. Thanks
Not exactly boring Ross. It did open a couple ideas I have not thought of before. I did not learn using 3NPS and even though I have tried to use it, I dont care for it. I like blues and Rock and don't feel the need to shred even if 3NPS helps but i have noticed that I have a better understanding of the fret board because of the way I learned. At first I was taught like you explained of the modes being positional. Then when someone told me to just stay in the scale and start at the next interval and then the next it opened the whole fret board. I understood I could play modally anywhere at any time. So yes know the fret board is the number one thing for me. I hope people heard you and what you were saying.
incredible content Ross. Just bought the course. Rare to find someone so young who can explain things in such a clear and insightful manner. ok i'll hop off now haha
Bloody hell this is exactly what has happened to me! Stuck in first scale positions and just biffed off the daunting task of memorising every scale position in all 12 keys. Thank you so much mate seriously helping me out here
In fact just found your course and going to buy it! Been stuck in a rut with no discernible way out of understanding modes/ scales etc. I understand how they are formed tones/ semitones and the basic principles but the method of actually learning them all has been fucking with me since I started to play
Just bought the Bulletproof Course, can wait to dive in!
I went through most of the same experiences you mention concerning three note per string patterns. This was a very good video. Thank you.
I’ve been watching a lot of guitarists on UA-cam for some time now, unable to understand how they were playing the way they did. I have yet to see the patterns that I use on any video: which is starting from root note and ending on root note. Even though I knew each modes and their tonality, it seems like nothing really took off. But you mentioned I have never considered, as it turns out I’ve been only using the 2 E strings as a reference point for starting my scales, modes, and improvising leads. Never thought about the other 4 strings. So now I have something I can look forward to in my playing and progression. Thanks for the tip.
That perspective is crucial (using theory rather than pictures). This applies to every skill. Video is not long (to the point) and will open up new doors for me. One thing I learned years ago taught me a unique approach, using octaves and intervals in every possible way to teach the ear what each interval sounds like on its own.
I came to a lot of stuff the wrong way around, in that I picked up 3nps/alt picking after already noodling for many years, so relying on the shapes for note choice is less of an issue for me. I can understand the reasoning and reluctance to teach beginners 3nps though. All methods can be useful weapons in the arsenal.
Absolutely spot on with this. I've relied on visual learning for 20 years and it's limited me terribly.
All ways great to listen to you and your advice and experience. I know a few players who tell me they have 10-20+ years experience but it's usually 1 year 20 times over. Great stuff thanks Ross.
Thanks Ross, that tip about practicing the pentatonic scale in every key at one position is brilliant. Which I had thought of it years ago. Will become my next practice regime.
it's funny cause my problem as a guitarist right now is the opposite of most people. i learned theory first and now I'm cursing every guitar teacher I find on UA-cam cause they're communicating with shapes not theory or any actual way of using that stuff. all the stuff you talked about was very interesting and relevant man good info.
My goodness me too, I have solid theory but the guitar learning systems aren't intuitive to what I know to be music/how scale degrees function!
I use functional sounds to create formulas for scales, arpeggios and chord formulas. They are easy to learn and tell you the function of the note(s) you choose to play. Easy to map and see on the fretboard.
You're spot on with everything you said. And even as an ex 80s M.I. (GIT) Graduate you reminded me that I need to force myself to brush up again on learning/memorising the notes on the fretboard.... :O
A very interesting video... I have been playing rhythm guitar and writing songs for 25 years now and only this year decided to get my head around lead guitar and scales. I knew the usual pentatonics and the basic major scales but most of my writing and playing was by feel. I have to say though, I have been learning using an Udemy course that places 3NPS central to the theory and it has totally blown my mind! I have been doing extra work though by overlaying the CAGED patterns and chords into the 3NPS patterns which literally sent my brain into space. I am also interested in what you have to say to though and I think artists always find ways that are interesting to them and one should always follow the path of most interest, no matter where it leads. I think it is pretty fascinating blending various ways of viewing the fretboard together. Great video and insight though. Thanks ;-)
Great insight. I hope everyone understands that you're not downing other methods but showing some of the inherent pitfalls. 3nps can be a great piece of the puzzle as long as one knows that there are other pieces
I've been playing a while now and have sort of hit a wall. What you have described is exactly why I'm not getting better...I'm stuck in the box. Great explanation
This is a very good information. I’ve recently picked up the guitar again after 20 years and attempting to undo some of the issues I had learning. I think the point of this video is not to focus on the fingering system but the music. Know where the root notes, move freely around the guitar and deploy “shapes” when needed. Thats my takeaway from this and others on UA-cam.
Ok, I'm going to plug you, where I've not plugged other people who I massively respect, and who've put out tons of free content which I insanely appreciate... I've been doing online learning for about a year in my guitar journey. I've learned pentatonic shapes, and I've learned some songs and open chord shapes and barre chords but always felt like I didn't know what I was doing or understand what I was talking about. I saw your course for a low price and decided to take a risk.
I'm less than 10 minutes into your course and already "GET" intervals. Your explanation is simple, your illustration on the neck using both the same string and the "block" of strings where you'd build a shape is brilliant. THANK YOU. I'm going to back to the course now, but I REALLY appreciate it. =)
By that reasoning, a student may become too dependent on anything they learn first. I learned how to play different scales in a single position and became dependant on it for a long time, not allowing myself to move around the fretboard. I was very grateful when I later learned 3NPS.
Interesting video. I have been playing for a long time, always learning, always open minded, a lot of fuss for new learners being trained to start off in certain patterns which I get. I think associating some of the talented guitarists out there who do what you state, be flexible, use the scales for improvising as you see fit, but expand, etc. I thankfully never learned from someone who tried to drill a technique into my playing, I think you make a good point about all of it at 6:00 to 06:30. Thanks for putting this together!
Ross, I think you hit the nail on the head. I, like yourself, started out learning 3NPS techniques, because it was the shortest path to what we considered impressive playing. Our nature is to take the path of least resistance, and shapes is much easier than learning the fretboard. One can also fall into the trap of playing a lot of triplet feel lines, over 4, which is extremely limiting in terms of phrasing. Branching out to 2NPS, or even an occasional 4NPS to climb vertical up the neck can definitely expand your library of tricks. Skipping stragegic notes in certain scales, then adding passing tones in others also make for more musical solos. At the end of the day all the theory is good for is actually training your ear to hear new sonic textures over particular chord arrangements. Once your mind is open to going to new places musically, it makes things much easier. My last comment is that practicing scales, and singing the notes is very helpful. If you can do that, you know where to go with your fingers instinctively, and it can help your improvisional skills immensely. Great job!
Glen Cruciani Thank you for this post. 👍🏼
I first learned my scales 3nps. This definitely help me see how the wwhwwwh formula was used and how the minor scale was related and later all the modes. If this were where I stopped learning I could see it being a problem but eventually I learned scales all over the neck and when I started piano my understanding of music theory grew exponentially. I think there is a time and place for everything to be useful. That said, I never learned how to play 4ths in one position like that. Really awesome. So, that’s what I’m going to be working on for the next few weeks or months. Whatever it takes.
Spent decades learning and playing scales (with bad technique as well) exactly as you described, and have been trying to unlearn it for the last 5 years or so.
You are an excellent teacher. Sure wish the internet and teachers like you had of been around when I first picked up a guitar and a Mel Bay chord book about 40 years ago. :)
Thanks 🙏. Great job. I went through the same experience as you. I’ve had to start over on guitar in my 30+years of playing and teaching. So you are on the right path. You’re a fine instructor... don’t stop. I agree with everything you’re saying. Cheers!
Seemlessly shifting through different scales at the same neck position ... ok. You got my attention. Picked up the course - which is a great deal at that price. Been stuck in the box forever. Wish me luck ....
When I started learning scales back in the 70's, I didn't even hear of the 3-NPS method for a long time, and I'm glad I didn't. What I've found that helps me, is to say out loud as you play the scale, the scale degrees. It's even better if you can sing them. It helped me to learn arpeggios easier, and of course, you'll know how to target certain chord tones better. It's great to know patterns, but you really need to dig deeper. Another great lesson, Ross. Thanks.
You told us what NOT to do. It would have been very helpful if you slowed down the part of what TO DO (I'm sure it's in there somewhere?).
Dan Bromberg I think the answer your looking is modes and its deviations.
Dan Bromberg , if you're talking about the part starting at 7:12 isn't he playing B major at position #5 (though he plays the low 7th on a different string then I've learned), E major at position #3, A major @ position # 1, and D major @ position # 4? Which has the roots for B on strings 6/3/1, E on strings 5/2, A on strings 6/4/1, and D on strings 5/3? Please note the question marks as I'm also looking for verification on what I've worked out!
He did - learn to construct the scale not by using visual shapes but with the notes they have so that you can play across the neck.With that you can either create patterns from the different root positions or play runs from low to high.
I recommend doing what I did:
Learning CAGED/ 3NPS scale patterns are just as important as learning theory and fretboard notes, in my opinion... But I learnt the latter first (I played classical guitar and took a lot of theory lessons).. after that I learnt CAGED/ 3NPS which 100% changed my fluidity. It allowed me to go on "auto pilot" for a bit when improvising as I didn't really have to think much and therefore gave me time to think of more meaningful notes to play.
@@cameronadams4366 Yes I agree once you understand theory, taking that theory and using a system that helps you use that theory and play it more easily and fluidly is great but teaching 3NPS to students and they just eat it up because they are playing fast makes it hard for them to ever really progress past speed and mechanics.
Quiet,cool,clarity,in teaching to the Dazed Learner..awesome..Dr.Nanda
Mmm books, guitars & whisky bloody fantastic
Hey Ross!!! Great topic!!! I actually have found a way to use these fingerings to an advantage by implementing the idea of using the root note associated with a certain finger. For instance I will tell a student if his/her 1st finger is on G, then B is played with the pinky. If his/her 2nd finger is on G, then his/her 1st finger on the next string is on B. This seems to help them visualize this by the aid of a piano keyboard diagram too. All of this is with the knowledge that our guitars are in standard tuning. I also teach my students to learn their modes with the same root and call out what Major Key they are playing in. So they will play G major and then go into G Dorian and my student will call out G Dorian- F Major all without leaving position fret 3 to fret 7. I hope this didn't seem like rambling but I totally agree with your point of view and I need to constantly practice my Circle of 4ths. I also worked on it in the circle of 5ths more. Hope you are doing well!! Have a blessed weekend!!
Not Uninteresting at all man. As someone who grew up depending on 3NPS this was super helpful.
This is a must see vídeo. Knowing which notes até being played os more important than shapes
I'm very glad to have watched the entire video. Very good lesson and I think more people would benefit from it in a positive way.
I would say alternating between 3 note and 2 note runs through scales with various embellishments, ascending and descending, at various tempos ensures that muscle memory is at
Max Capacity. Without great technique, knowledge is just in your head. Improvisation means being able to use any technique at any time seamlessly. Easier finger positions, more precision, longer playing.
With and Without a Pick.