I work in pharmaceuticals and have spent years working with humidity-sensitive materials. Plastic bags are much more permeable to moisture than most people realize. In the same way that water migrates into your filament, it will absorb into the plastic bag then release inside the bag. That is why things like potato chip bags have that shiny foil. It's a very thin layer of aluminum to keep water out. Whatever type of container you are using, desiccant packs are a good idea.
This. Havnt gotten around to implementing this myself yet, but a metalized foil bag indeed sounds like its a good idea. The downside is that you cant see inside them so thats pretty inconvenient and requires really good labelling not to go insane, though.. Plastics are pretty different in their moisture permeability; perhaps thick PE bags with some desiccant inside are more practical. Ive got a non-gasketted PE large box now ,and the 2kg of silica needs drying every few months; not ideal. But I think a gasketted PE box, with thick PE foil sealed bags with desicant inside, should hold humidity within reasonable range for years, without having to bother with vacuums, and still being able to see how much is left on that pink roll of brand x; without needing to bother with the vacuum again. Would be nice to have some quantitative testing on the matter, to know how much is 'enough', though.
I've thought about buying some large zip lock Mylar bags and just flooding them with desiccant. The only downside is I have yet to find a bag that can be properly vacuumed. I would love to see a product like this but with a foil layer.
Hi Angus, quick note that the transparent bag will let the moisture go through, thats why Polymaker uses aluminum bag. (Nylon bag, PE bag,.. will let the moisture in).
I store my filament roles in large ziplock bags, throw a small silica gel bag into it and zip it while tryin gto squeeze as much air out. it's been working quite well for me.
This works fine for PLA without doubt. That said for some filament types this is not adequate. Perhaps if you stuff the bag to the breaking point with silica packs, but I won't be storing especially sensitive filaments like that.
Makes sense. A dehydrator actively removes water while the bag is just preventing further exposure. It's worth using but it won't save already "bad" filament. Nice vid!
Thank you for keeping me informed. I don't have the energy to watch your full video, but I got the jist of the problem & solution. I'm no where near buying a 3D printer yet, but when I do, I want to avoid water damage from the start. I've been watching you for years & I had no clue about this.
Sometimes I forget that the southern hemisphere has opposite weather season and my brain is confused when he says that they are having a hot summer when I'm seeing snow outside 😂
As someone who deals with plastics industrially, I have one quibble about your test. It depends a lot on how quickly you get it in the bag after the dehydrator. Warm, dry PA will absorb as much moisture in the first few minutes or so as it does in the day or two after. In the fabrication plant that filament is probably cooled before it touches air, but out of the dehydrator it's going to hit the air warm and likely pick up a bunch of moisture quickly. That's why your dehydrator directly to printer works so well, and why you should also try going directly from the dehydrator to the bag for best results.
Huh, good to know! Thanks. So you're saying it should go into the bag while still warm? Nylon was out for ~10min to do the stringing test but definitely longer for the PETG to do the benchy more like 2hrs.
@@MakersMuse If you want the same performance as dry filament, yeah. Depending on the temperature and vacuum you might even be able to pull water vapor out if you do it hot (might not be good for that pump though).
Does it make sense to heat the filament up in a chamber with lower pressure? Edit: might be difficult to then get the water out of the chamber, maybe exchange the air or use desiccant? Does desiccant absorb the moisture faster than the filament? Thanks for your tips
@@1234fishnet Ehh, pressure has something to do with it, but really what's getting you is time-temperature superposition - oversimplified, plastics act like time is moving faster the warmer they are. And it's sort of exponential. Predicting plastic moisture absorption is a hell of Time-temperature effects, vapor pressures, and glass transition temperatures that makes it super complicated to figure out exactly what's going to happen, which is why eliminating (or at least regulating) the time variable is important. That said, you will probably need a moisture trap if you're dessicating under vacuum - pumps don't usually like pulling pure water vapor, although if this is a pump designed for food it might be fine. In chemistry if you're vacuum drying you usually keep a jar of some hygrascopic material on the vacuum line to protect your pump, but there's not room for it in this system.
@@danielf3623 ok, so if like pressure is not that important then it's the best to put the filament inside of the sealed bag while still in the hot+dry environment of the dehumidifier? So making a box with sealed gloves in a wall (similar to a biohazard workbench), put in a printer, use the heated bed as a heater with sealed gloves would be a solution for makers at home?
I vacuum seal my nylon and a couple others, but I use a foodsaver system. I went to a local thrift shop (in the US) a few times and now I have 3 of them with different strengths, weaknesses, and features, but all 3 totaled less than $20. Brand new they are quite expensive. I get generic bag rolls from amazon, and they are wide enough to fit a roll of filament. The down side is that you lose a little bit of the bag every time you have to cut it open, making it a little smaller. I usually start with twice the length I really need so that I can get more uses out of it instead of throwing away the rest of the bag after one cut. I've used products nearly identical to this, and I would usually come back to a bag with air in it after a day or two. Maybe these are a bit higher quality, but the ziploc seal and the valve can't compare to a melted plastic seal.
I had tried large food storage bags, but the pumping time was annoying, and the external pressure cracked or broke some spools (mainly the clear ones). I went back to my Sterilite bins with desiccant scattered over the bottom. For a better test, put one of those cheap $2 hygrometers in the bag and monitor the actual humidity in the bag. I have one in each of my bins, and one on the shelf next to the bins for reference. I'm usually reading 18% humidity inside the bins, no matter what the external humidity reads.
EDIT: Been using these bags... on about 14 spools of filament, for the last 2 months. 3 bags sprung leaks... all on the black side of the bag. It seems that side of the bag is delicate. I still would recommend them. Hopefully they come back in stock soon, I need another 24 bags. MakersMuse code worked... order placed... I'm holding my breath until the order is received. I plan on adding a 50gram bag of WiseDry to each vacuum bag I seal. They change color to indicate moisture contamination.
This is what I've been doing. I also run the filament through my dryer after removing them from vacuum bags too. The cheap Walmart vacuum bags never hold a vacuum for very long, but they still help.
I agree with your conclusions, Angus. Reusable vacuum bags are a nice option to keep most hygroscopic filaments in a decent condition, despite drying them a bit before printing is somehow mandatory. That's why all my filament are printed from a sort of PolyBox (even PLA. Sort of logical thing to me, now). Plus, reusable vacuum bags not only help with keeping spools dust free: it's easier to store them (in my opinion), no need to keep the original filament boxes ! ;)
Thanks for picking up the topic, Angus! I've been experimenting with filament drying for some time because my PLA starts breaking after exposition "to the elements" as you put it. Turns out you need to use real big drying bags for a 1 kilogramm spool AND these need to be dried for several hours at 90°C themselves. Although 100°C or above would definitely speed things up, the bags deteriorate from such high temperatures.
Great demos! I'm not sure I get the appeal of a vacuum pump unless you're constantly switching out filament. I use the eSUN bags which came with a hand pump, it takes maybe 30 seconds to fully evacuate a bag. On a side note, it's crazy how literally every single time I have a question about 3D printing and look up what people have said on UA-cam, I always find a great answer from Maker's Muse.
Same here, and I suspect many of us do the same. I'd like to have seen Angus compare the vac sealed bag to a ordinary zip lock bag, with or without a silica pack tossed in, rather than just comparing the vac bag to open air. I suspect the vac seal would not show a difference enough to be worth the extra effort or money, except perhaps for the most hydroscopic filiaments in the most humid environments.
@@ApKNJ One other thing I do after opening a roll is to put the Silica gel sacks straight into a zip lock bag, roll it up and seal it so it isn't sucking in moisture while the roll is in use. I also store the rolls in the boxes they came in (X3D) in a cupboard so they arent exposed to UV.
I bought about 50 of these bags during covid and have used them for 3 years now. They are great and work well, the 1st, the 2nd, and maybe even the third time that you open and re-seal the bags, but eventually, the bags won't hold a vacuum anymore. I wouldn't use them for filament that you open and use often, but for long-term storage of filaments that aren't used regularly, I think they are good. I see they have a V2 version of that bags now. I wonder if they hold up to repeated use.
Being using a FoodSaver vacuum system for years now. Some of the filament I have sealed have been sealed for up to 4 years. I've tried some filament after 2 years of storage and it comes out flawless. If there is a zipper on your sealed bag it will leak air slowly. The FoodSaver excels in this area because it truly is airtight. I've been using this system for 4 years and haven't had any problems with moisture.
I just ran across your comment. Are you using the 11" bag? I think it's the widest bag available. It looks like the filament spool fits but the bag isn't able to draw-in sufficiently to remove the air.
You may have as well read my mind! I just opened three new PLA filaments for an art activism project. Resealing has been on my mind in the past couple weeks. I'm contending dusting off the vacuum packaging bags from Ikea many years ago (which is operated with household vacuum cleaners and a lot cheaper). A little relieved that PLA doesn't absorb moisture as badly. But then, I also print very infrequently so I am counting storage by month if not by year.
My dry box uses 4 angstrom molecular sieves. Would love to see a head to head of aggressive desiccants like molecular sieves or calcium oxide versus silica. The absorption at extremely low partial vapour pressure water could make them effective dryers.
I bought 2 sets of eSUN eVacuum kit when it first launched. Includes a hand pump, 2x sealing clips, desiccants, humidity monitor strips and 10 bags for US$20 each. Been great and works much faster than the USB pump in the video.
Hi, Angus! Big thanks for the review and tests! Now I'm 100% sure that I need to dry any Nylon filament before printing every time. And I see that here is almost no difference between these "vacuum packages" and a simple DIY dry-box. Will save my money for more dry box parts. Thanx again!
Living on the Highveld (1600m ASL) of South Africa I must say I haven't had any issues with moisture in my SA Filament PETG. It's generally pretty dry here, but we've had some really wet weather lately. I kept the PETG it in the original packaging with a few packets of silica gel, but I've also left it out for a week or two and I've had some really good prints with no bubbling or stringing. Maybe I've just been really lucky.
Damn you!!!! I literally spent hours yesterday looking for this very solution and only found small sous vide bags or huge doona bags online! As I live in Singapore humidity is massive and constant here. This is a great price for what it is and the added pump looks like a winner. Thanks!
It could be that although you’re pumping much of the air out you’re leaving more of the moisture behind. As you reduce the pressure the dew point will come down so moisture can start condensing out on the filament. The lower pressure also probably means the relative humidity in the bag is higher than ambient. Where the bag wins is the limited volume of moisture so the longer you need to store the better the benefits of the vac bag.
From what I read online air and water can still permeate through the plastic bags over time. So while it won't completely stop your filament from getting water logged it will definitely slow down the process. Unfortunately due to shipping costs I'm only saving $3.00 using the coupon vs if I bought from PrintedSolid's Store.
@@ImieNazwiskoOK that's what they do for moisture-sensitive electronic components: they use bags with foil layer, add desiccant, and put a tag with moisture-sensitive paint blobs that tell you if the bag has leaked or not when you open it. The foil is also good for protecting from static electricity.
Yes, most plastics are moisture-permeable. The fact that the filament itself absorbs moisture is an instant proof of that. I found out by experimentation that desiccant in plastic containers should be replaced about once in two months, which is too much maintenance. I have found a maintenance-free method of storing the plastic dry forever: I've set up a box that slowly trickles air from my food freezer (by convection). That air is very dry. The only maintenance it takes is to de-ice the freezer more often, once every year approximately. Works great, it can even keep the nylon dry.
I'd love to see a test after a couple months comparing Vacuum Bag vs regular ziplock bag with desiccant sachet. $40 isn't particularly expensive for a good long-term storage solution, but if it's not significantly better than a normal ziplock bag and the desiccant that came with the spool, then it's not really worth it.
I think this is a combination of what Eric Peeke, 3D Printing Science, and M Matthews said. The moisture is being left behind, AND the moisture is penetrating into the bag. A desiccant like silica gel would really help in the performance of the bag (with the PETG, not just nylon), and so would an aluminium coating.
I have been waiting for this, finally companies are realizing that they can pretty much run any small device on USB. The batterys have been standard 3,7volt cells for an eternity by now for pretty much everything anyways.
It has to do with how much current the USB cables can provide. The new USB standards can go up to 5 amps, so you are seeing more devices powered by them. Older USB standards have much lower current.
FYI you can use a 5 gallon buckets with a PVC ball valve plumbed into the top to store filament long term.. Put your spools in the bucket, put your modified top on , hook your vacuum to the valve with it open while vacuum is being applied close the valve .. you now have a vacuum in the bucket with a half dozen spools stored in it as long as you want .. Total cost to store 6 spools at once around $5 usd.. The chance to design/print some adapters to mount the valve to the bucket top = PRICELESS,LOL
@@MakersMuse Not unless your using a SUPER BAD ARSE vacuum.. . I stumbled across this constructing low vacuum purge containers for purging air from 2 part casting materials.. Wish it was old you tube so I could just post a pic or 2 for you..
Nice to see a review of this, and thank you for mentioning it doesn't have a battery. I couldn't find anything that said if it had a battery or not, and saw no explanation about if it needed charging. Well, overnight "charging" didn't work :P I remember when they announced the system, I went "ok, that's nice" but once they mentioned the price, I was sold because it was cheap compared to existing systems (also, if I wanted to get a nice dinner, it's sometimes the same cost... and I can't re-eat that dinner, unlike reusing the bags...). I think the biggest issue is the power, as you mentioned. Oddly, the best working power source for this has been a USB port on the back of a fancy webcam... Outside of that, it's reasonably priced for what it is, though may try commercial food bags just to see how they do. I wished more spools came with resealable bags... I may have to update that with "and a vacuum valve".
I got a knockoff version of the usb vacuum pump a while back from amazon and it does work surprisingly well. The reusable bags were a bit big for filament and are designed for clothes I think but it works well still. This seems like a rebranded version of the same thing with filament-sized bags but the price is fairly reasonable still..
Dehydrate the filament, then stick it in the freeze dryer, then make sure you are in a very dry room (use a dehumidifier) when you open it, and immediately make sure you add MANY desiccants when you vacuum bag the filament. Finally, as you said, print directly from the dehydrator.
I have been saving my Desiccant bags for a while, I keep them in the bottom of my converted food dehydrator and always throw a few in when I bag up my filament, I just use 1 gallon zip locs and also dehydrate while printing, I bag the filament hot to minimize moisture content.
I made a special holder for my Sunlu dryer that mounts to my Ender 5 and has a lazy susan style bearing so it can swivel to follow the head. So I can have my filament dryer on and use it as a holder while printing. I find it helps prevent stringing, even with PLA.
Honestly, when I buy PETG (filamentum, formfutura,....) I usually have to dry them right out of the box to get really clean prints, once I dried them for 6-8h in the oven I usually get clean prints no matter how long I leave them out.
A vacuum bag is great for stopping the filament from absorbing additional moisture, but it the filament will gradually increase in moisture content each time that it's used. Using any form of sealed bag with (my preference) blue colour changing silica beads, will not only keep filament dry, but will dry out the moisture within the filament between each use. Bonus for the colour changing beads; you know when they're 'full" and you can just pop them in the oven for an hour at 100°c and they'll be back to blue and ready to go. Another note - silica bags/beads really don't last long until they've reached their maximum absorption. Most cheap silica bags ordered online have already been exposed to the air and are useless. Thus the advantage of the blue silica beads. I find about half a cup worth of silica is about the minimum if your filament has a little moisture in it.
I'm always amazed at the examples of prints that you show and how seemingly bad they always are. You said several times in this video "it's actually pretty good" but there wasn't a single print here that I think is even remotely good. Maybe i'm spoiled by my Prusa Mini, I3MKS, and heavily heavily modified CR10 printing exclusively with Prusament PETG and PLA but if any of my prints looked like this I would throw them away and start over. I also leave my Prusament PETG out for some times months and I never have any results like this.
Amazon sells "small" vacuum seal bags that come with a hand vacuum pump, for about half the price. Works well plus you don't need any power. I put "small" in air quotes only because the bags are quite larger than the standard filament spool, yet they still scrunch up enough to fit inside the standard filament box, if you keep your spools stored in their original boxes, that is.
I picked up a similar system eSUN are offering now, biggest difference is it uses a manual hand pump which I actually like since I’m always running out of outlets. The bags themselves look identical except for the branding. Even if you still need to dry after storing in these at least you could get away with a quicker drying run.
Thanks for making this video, Angus. I got mine a while ago when I was ordering some Elixir and saw it was on sale. I noticed that sometimes when leaving the pump plggued in but not running it will sometimes turn on randomly by itself, so make sure to unplug it! I also noticed similar results to what you found with the sealed filament. The filament I keep in the bags turned out super brittle. This particular roll was a Zyltech "special formula" that I received and printed in the same day (vacuum packed from factory) then immediately sealed it with the NanoVac. I brought it out today (after maybe a month) and the first maybe meter or so was super brittle but the rest is printing fine. I definitely think that a desiccant bag would be useful, perhaps definitely better, to keep in the sealed bags. I cannot see any way that it could hurt my filament, so I think I will definitely continue to use it along side with my RepBox.
it would also stop spools from unwinding i think i would still use it for the pla just to know everything was tidey and closed. though i hardly use my fdm printer. it is still good to know that i would not just have spools of pla just sitting open for over a year. :)
I reuse the large ziplock bags that Amazon Basics used to use for their filaments, suck out most of the air when I put up a roll, and generally keep 4-6 desiccant packs per roll even for PLA. But most of my prints are getting sold, not just for my own use. I still have to occasionally dry a roll, but usually only when I don't put it up for a while and dry out my desiccant packs every couple months.
I use food sealers. You still need a desiccant with these. These are fairly cheap from uline but you have to buy a lot of them. 85$ gets you about 1000. Lol. The reason you need desiccant is moisture. Plastic is not a moisture barrier.
Do you think the center of the spool may have affected the filament in any way? I dont think there would be enough air left in the center for it to affect the print that much but, maybe a revisit with off roll vs on roll filament in the vacuum bag?
No, the center would have the same vacuum as any other void. The whole coil has void space throughout since round filament does not completely flatten out against the next piece of round filament.
I never have filament issues, I notmally put my PLA and PETG back in the resealable bags that they come in (MG Chemicals filament), push out as much air as possible, leave the tiny silicone bag it, seal it and chuck it back in the box. That said I can leave either of these filaments types on my open printer for a couple of months and it still prints just fine. I have a reel of TPU I bought Feb 2018, back when I started printed, it was left in an open bag for about a year and a half before I used it, it printed just fine.
Anyone who has experience drying and curing "herbs" can see what potentially is happening. During the drying process of herbs after the "material" appears to be dry and crispy and put into a airtight container and left for some time, Will return to a spongy "wet" condition. What is happening is moisture is being wicked to the surface from within the core of the material during hard/fast drying. When you finally put it in a stabilized environment and the humidity within the material stabilizes and equalize throughout the material.. also to note I recently got a filament dryer box and wanted to see how well it evenly heats/drys the roll of filament. I put in a color changing temperature sensitive pla filament and results were definitely surprising. I did a 24hr drying cycle and about 12 hours in only the outer portion of the roll had changed. It took nearly 20hrs before the roll appeared fully warmed. Keep i mind i still can't see all the filament. Only rhe outer surface and through the side windows of the roll. For context the filament changes from purple to pink above 31°c and had the dryer set to 55°c. After seeing how long it takes for the filament to reach "drying temp" i run my filament for 72 hours. Just some input from personal experience, keep up the great work Angus!! Been watching for over 3yrs
I like your idea of printing from the dehydrator. A custom spool holder and maybe mounting the dehydrator on its side so that the filament spool axis can be horizontal. My dehydrator is large enough to mount 2 spools horizontally I think, will need to give it a try. I have a large nylon print to try in the future and know it will need something like this to work. My Seal a Meal has a hose and adapter that would work with the bags but the included pump with this system is nice and compact. I can see that just vacuum packing alone will not dry the filament. I would dry it first before packing it. If you have some of the indicator cards with the color changing dots to pack with the filament would be a a good way of seeing how things are working. You can find the indicator cards on Amazon, I get them from work. They come with some of the surface mount electronic components and are reusable. I just dry them with the filament and throw them in the storage containers with the filament after it's dry. Thanks for the review, I think I will give the bags a try.
Great product yet I use a big Ziplock bag and vacuum cleaner. Good for long term storage for my more special colored filaments. I'm glad a company came up with thier own system for it.
Instead of using small desiccant packs you could tip in a heap of rice(literally as much as you like). It's naturally a desiccant, it's cheap & can be reused. I've been using it for years to help with storing seeds that I don't want to germinate yet. It's absolutely. Should make a huge difference to how your filament comes out.
I use large bucket sized Tupperware type containers. Four rolls sit in each, on top of the four rolls sits a pouch of dessicant - not silica gel, though - these have what I think is calcium chloride plus a gelling agent. They are sold to be put on drawers or cabinets to keep your clothes from dampness. They are often scented, but you can get unscented ones, and even some containing charcoal for absorbing smells. The common brand here is "Thirsty Hippo", but I get the generic Tesco-branded ones. Daiso also sells their own brand. I put a hygrometer in with the rolls, the humidity comes down to about 20-22%. I wonder if the pump in this article is good enough for vacuum bagging foam wings...
Silicone desiccant can be bought in bulk, but you can get handy canisters of the stuff for ammunition boxes (probably costs more). Or I could get an altoids tin, drill some holes, add some metal mesh... Easily recharged with a warm oven, and most of the time you can do the same with filament, although a food dehydrator would be a better idea. I remember Stephan from CNC kitchen doing a test of using a vacuum to dehydrate filament, and if memory serves, the results weren't great even with laboratory vacuum dehydrators. There needs to be a filament bag/spool capable of holding at least a half kilo, compatible with the vacuum sealers used for food storage. I bet the valve on this bag is compatible with the vacuum attachment for my machine...
Thank you for the awesome review on these :D I recently got bags like those from an off brand company. They work, but they came with a hand pump (ouch my arms).
I've become a fan of these things. I use the PrintDry containers for filaments that I use frequently, but I've switched to using the Airlock bags for rolls I don't use as much, as the containers are bulky and take up a lot of extra shelf space. The bags store things much more efficiently. my only real complaint is that most of the USB-C cables I have seen to have too much housing and thus I have to hold the cable in place on the pump, (I mislaid the cable that came with it, of course.) I still put a Dry & Dry moisture indicator and a couple of D&D desiccant packs in with each roll regardless of which kind of storage I'm using, and everything seems to work pretty well. I still like to run the filament through the dryer before using it if I'm making anything I want to turn out especially nice, but I do that even for new filament, so...
Was looking at vacuum bagging filament rolls with dessicant about 2-3 months ago. I was looking for bags that would be about the size of prusa bags but most were too small or too large or way too expensive. I was going to use the bags with a sunbeam (food saver) VS1300 - upright vacuum bag sealer machine. The pump and bags look good and if you didn’t have a sealer already probably a good option. Approx what size is the bag? On the kit the website links to (from description), shows 40x38cm with 15.75” x 13.38” so somethings awry, as I get 40 x 33.98cm.
In SMD-electronics you can order your chips from yourn dealer dryed to a specified humidity and delivered in sealed bags. Background is the chips has to be dryed to do not popcorn during reflow soldering. These additional aluminium shielded bags are best what i ever get. Best practice is to dry the filament the double then normal time. Give them including a 100% fresh (or reloaded 100°C for 5h) 200g drypack into the shieldedBag and seal it whith a sealing machine.
Great review, as usual, Angus thanks. A few months ago I decided to go with a fully insulated and temperature/humidity controlled room in my garage and it's made a huge difference. My prints are always perfect with no stringing even with filament stored out in the open (not in the room). Before I built the room I was having stringing problems even with PLA. I have a heater and dehumidifier in there controlled by two InkBird controllers. I think I'll give the vacuum system a miss.
3D printer AMSR with vacumm any Fiberology spool - I do the same tapping each time I get onr of mine bags ;).(nice to see made in Poland so far). I do use simillar bags yet with hand pump.. Works like a charm. Regards!
I recently ran out of black filament, and had to resort to a part roll of 1.75mm pla that had been in my cold and damp shed for a few years. It printed fine.
I use MagicBag space saving vacuum bags. I trim the Medium size bag to fit a spool and use my FoodSaver to heat seal the end I cut. Works great and I can use a regular vacuum to provide the suction.
The more I’ve learned about 3D printing in the last couple months the more I’m stunned at the Ender 3 v1 performance. My first print was a PETG benchy that came out better than ANY benchy I’ve seen thus far from anyone online (though not perfect, I’ve yet to stumble across a perfect one)
I save mint tins, drill some small holes into them then fill them with indicating silica gel. That way I can stick the tins full of desiccant into an oven to regenerate them.
I’ve been printing with Nylon X and I make sure to keep my spools stored in vacuum sealed food saver bags with silica pouches inside, no issues at all.
The filament might be drying unevenly in the dehydrator. The filament on the inside of the roll could retain a little moisture (because of less airflow during drying). This wouldn’t affect the test print done immediately (using drier filament from the outside of the roll). During storage under vacuum the residual moisture would redistribute more evenly through the filament, affecting the test print done following storage. Completely untested hypothesis but it would explain the results you got.
At work we use a amazon vacuum bag meant for pillows with desiccant to store our nylon. after pulling it out of the bag it sits in a dryer for about 10 minutes at 55c and then is ready for quality prints.
The thing that immediately comes to mind is that when you put them in the bag and seal it there is a big air trap in the middle of the spool. Maybe if you print a cylinder to fill that gap the results might be slightly better?
Oh hey this is just like that old Ziplock thing. Hand-held vacuum pump and reusable bags. From what I remember it was crap after a few usage, hopefully these do better over time.
Another factor is that you pulled filament off the spool and exposed potentially still "wet" filament that hadn't had enough heat penetration by the drying process to actually dry the filament. Drying after a spool is getting used and immediately being stored, can be just as important as drying before printing for this reason.
I store my filament spools in small containers (space for five or so) then put a household dessicant box and a cheap humidity indicator. It stays at around 30% where outside is ~75%. Dessicant lasts a couple of months because its a small volume. The box doesn't even need to be air-tight. When the indicator reaches ~40% I replace the dessicant. Stopped having issues with moisture on my prints since I started doing this.
I think what might make more sense is to dehydrate the rolls, _then_ vacuum seal them for later. That way, they're ready to go as soon as you need them.
I’ve been using the generic Chinese version of these bags with a manual hand pump from Amazon and they work great. Just need to use the large bags (which seem to be the exact same size as the ones from Polyalchemy). Mind you, they aren’t that much cheaper than these 🤷🏻♂️ I also use color-changing desiccant packs so I know if there’s moisture over time (mine change from dark blue to light pink when they are full of moisture). Then I can dry the desiccant packs in the microwave if needed.
Maybe I have low expectations, or I'm just lucky, but I just got a new SV06 printer and did a few print in place models, with what I now realise is filament I bought 3 and 1/2 years ago, which has just been sitting in my living room open and gathering dust for 3 years. Seems fine. Also printed your clearance gauge and 4 of the 6 rotated fine with it.
For anyone that was wondering if their charger could run this, while his said the "total output" was 8 amps, it adds all the ports up, which means each port, assuming they're all the same which they most likely are in this case, only can do 2 amps, which is pretty standard, and can only do 2 amps even if it's the only port being used.
The vacuum bag doesn't dry the filament, it just prevent further moisture absorption. The desiccant bag is the one doing the dehumidifying job. I bet if you put lots of desiccant bags into a big sealed bag (non-vacuum), it would work quite well.
Desiccant bags don't dry the filament either. They just absorb moisture from the air. The thought process behind the vacuum bags is that without air you don't have any moisture.
Thanks for the review and testing! - I wonder if the absorbed moisture came in part from not drying the roll between printing and bagging. - Filling an old sock or something with desiccant and wrapping it around the inside of the spool may protect against the residual moisture from the trapped air. Bonus, you may get a better or faster vacuum, as the plastic won't have to bury itself in the roll as much.
Interesting but not convinced it’s worth it for me anyway. I store my filaments in resealable bags which are very cheap and throw in some desiccant too. If the filament has real issues I can use my drier but it’s an interesting test. Thanks Angus
I would guess, it has to do with the moisture in the filament in the inner loops of the spool. It might just have diffused outwards... After 8 hours there is probably still quite some moisture in the inner parts of the spool. (CNC Kitchen did some in-depth tests about that.) I would suggest to try it out with just a small sample of the filament in the bag or with a spool which is dried for several days!
I store my hygroscopic filaments in a large clear plastic tote I made using window seals and a cheap tote from home depot. It stays at about 28% RH with a 45-60% RH environment. For my extremely hygroscopic filaments I use an ezy storage IP67 tote that is incredibly well sealed and will hit 18% RH with silica gel and with better desiccants it'll easily get 5% or lower.
I actually don't think it absorbs moisture while in the bag, in any noticeable way at least. More likely is that its small cavities are more prone to suck in a bit of moisture as soon as it comes out since it has been in a vacuum and when the pressure from the outside hits it it will absorb a little bit easier. And also the moisture that it contained while exposed before vacuumed is still in it - so it doesn't really remove any moisture as the drier does. But drying it, then vacuum seal it would make a bit more sense. It would be interesting to look at that as an comparison to the freshly dried filament. Say you use a roll of filament, dry it and seal it, than 3 weeks later you want to use it but instantly instead of first having to dry it. Does that work as well or not? More as a time saver when you are about to print. Sure, the mount of work will be about the same but less planning before you're gonna use the specific filament. But just keeping moisture out has it's benefits, of course, as you said it shouldn't need as much time in the drier, maybe just an hour or so.
I work in pharmaceuticals and have spent years working with humidity-sensitive materials. Plastic bags are much more permeable to moisture than most people realize. In the same way that water migrates into your filament, it will absorb into the plastic bag then release inside the bag. That is why things like potato chip bags have that shiny foil. It's a very thin layer of aluminum to keep water out. Whatever type of container you are using, desiccant packs are a good idea.
I strongly agree!
This. Havnt gotten around to implementing this myself yet, but a metalized foil bag indeed sounds like its a good idea. The downside is that you cant see inside them so thats pretty inconvenient and requires really good labelling not to go insane, though.. Plastics are pretty different in their moisture permeability; perhaps thick PE bags with some desiccant inside are more practical. Ive got a non-gasketted PE large box now ,and the 2kg of silica needs drying every few months; not ideal. But I think a gasketted PE box, with thick PE foil sealed bags with desicant inside, should hold humidity within reasonable range for years, without having to bother with vacuums, and still being able to see how much is left on that pink roll of brand x; without needing to bother with the vacuum again. Would be nice to have some quantitative testing on the matter, to know how much is 'enough', though.
Yes. I store allergens at 4C in a desiccant chamber.
Zip lock bags are useless for this.
I've thought about buying some large zip lock Mylar bags and just flooding them with desiccant. The only downside is I have yet to find a bag that can be properly vacuumed. I would love to see a product like this but with a foil layer.
@@Hyraethian Just add a nipple to it like the carbon fiber bagging guys use
Hi Angus, quick note that the transparent bag will let the moisture go through, thats why Polymaker uses aluminum bag. (Nylon bag, PE bag,.. will let the moisture in).
Aluminium Bags are used to prevent exposure to UV.
I store my filament roles in large ziplock bags, throw a small silica gel bag into it and zip it while tryin gto squeeze as much air out. it's been working quite well for me.
I also use large zip-lock bags. No need for silica gel since I only use PLA. The bags are only for dust protection.
Yeah that's what I do, doesn't seem to do enough for TPU though.
I use IKEA 6.5 and 4.5 liter bags. They are cheap and sturdy with 2 zips.
This works fine for PLA without doubt. That said for some filament types this is not adequate. Perhaps if you stuff the bag to the breaking point with silica packs, but I won't be storing especially sensitive filaments like that.
I do use the ones it comes in from Prusa. I keep the silica in them as well. Seems to work out so far for PLA and PETG.
Makes sense. A dehydrator actively removes water while the bag is just preventing further exposure. It's worth using but it won't save already "bad" filament. Nice vid!
yeah, they won't revive your filament but what they will do is stop or atleast slow down the process of your filament absorbing moisture
Thank you for keeping me informed. I don't have the energy to watch your full video, but I got the jist of the problem & solution. I'm no where near buying a 3D printer yet, but when I do, I want to avoid water damage from the start. I've been watching you for years & I had no clue about this.
This is a pretty good idea. Also Angus wanted to say your remix music for Joel's video is Awesome.
Haha thanks man, was fun :)
Sometimes I forget that the southern hemisphere has opposite weather season and my brain is confused when he says that they are having a hot summer when I'm seeing snow outside 😂
Man I'm melting right now! Would almost wish for freezing temps instead...
@@MakersMuse I used to live in one of the hottest states in usa and I moved states for college so I could escape the heat finally
Indeed, -1°C here and Angus talks of hot weather and high humidity. Time to pay him a visit 😂
Well explained.
Do you think a container with desiccant (e.g. inside the spool) would help?
only -1? I don’t think you’re qualified for the name Olaf anymore :)
As someone who deals with plastics industrially, I have one quibble about your test. It depends a lot on how quickly you get it in the bag after the dehydrator. Warm, dry PA will absorb as much moisture in the first few minutes or so as it does in the day or two after. In the fabrication plant that filament is probably cooled before it touches air, but out of the dehydrator it's going to hit the air warm and likely pick up a bunch of moisture quickly. That's why your dehydrator directly to printer works so well, and why you should also try going directly from the dehydrator to the bag for best results.
Huh, good to know! Thanks. So you're saying it should go into the bag while still warm? Nylon was out for ~10min to do the stringing test but definitely longer for the PETG to do the benchy more like 2hrs.
@@MakersMuse If you want the same performance as dry filament, yeah. Depending on the temperature and vacuum you might even be able to pull water vapor out if you do it hot (might not be good for that pump though).
Does it make sense to heat the filament up in a chamber with lower pressure?
Edit: might be difficult to then get the water out of the chamber, maybe exchange the air or use desiccant? Does desiccant absorb the moisture faster than the filament?
Thanks for your tips
@@1234fishnet Ehh, pressure has something to do with it, but really what's getting you is time-temperature superposition - oversimplified, plastics act like time is moving faster the warmer they are. And it's sort of exponential. Predicting plastic moisture absorption is a hell of Time-temperature effects, vapor pressures, and glass transition temperatures that makes it super complicated to figure out exactly what's going to happen, which is why eliminating (or at least regulating) the time variable is important.
That said, you will probably need a moisture trap if you're dessicating under vacuum - pumps don't usually like pulling pure water vapor, although if this is a pump designed for food it might be fine. In chemistry if you're vacuum drying you usually keep a jar of some hygrascopic material on the vacuum line to protect your pump, but there's not room for it in this system.
@@danielf3623 ok, so if like pressure is not that important then it's the best to put the filament inside of the sealed bag while still in the hot+dry environment of the dehumidifier?
So making a box with sealed gloves in a wall (similar to a biohazard workbench), put in a printer, use the heated bed as a heater with sealed gloves would be a solution for makers at home?
I vacuum seal my nylon and a couple others, but I use a foodsaver system. I went to a local thrift shop (in the US) a few times and now I have 3 of them with different strengths, weaknesses, and features, but all 3 totaled less than $20. Brand new they are quite expensive. I get generic bag rolls from amazon, and they are wide enough to fit a roll of filament. The down side is that you lose a little bit of the bag every time you have to cut it open, making it a little smaller. I usually start with twice the length I really need so that I can get more uses out of it instead of throwing away the rest of the bag after one cut.
I've used products nearly identical to this, and I would usually come back to a bag with air in it after a day or two. Maybe these are a bit higher quality, but the ziploc seal and the valve can't compare to a melted plastic seal.
I had tried large food storage bags, but the pumping time was annoying, and the external pressure cracked or broke some spools (mainly the clear ones). I went back to my Sterilite bins with desiccant scattered over the bottom.
For a better test, put one of those cheap $2 hygrometers in the bag and monitor the actual humidity in the bag. I have one in each of my bins, and one on the shelf next to the bins for reference. I'm usually reading 18% humidity inside the bins, no matter what the external humidity reads.
EDIT: Been using these bags... on about 14 spools of filament, for the last 2 months. 3 bags sprung leaks... all on the black side of the bag. It seems that side of the bag is delicate. I still would recommend them. Hopefully they come back in stock soon, I need another 24 bags.
MakersMuse code worked... order placed... I'm holding my breath until the order is received.
I plan on adding a 50gram bag of WiseDry to each vacuum bag I seal. They change color to indicate moisture contamination.
Order arrived with the FREE stuff thanks to your code.
Thank YOU !!!
This is what I've been doing. I also run the filament through my dryer after removing them from vacuum bags too. The cheap Walmart vacuum bags never hold a vacuum for very long, but they still help.
I agree with your conclusions, Angus. Reusable vacuum bags are a nice option to keep most hygroscopic filaments in a decent condition, despite drying them a bit before printing is somehow mandatory.
That's why all my filament are printed from a sort of PolyBox (even PLA. Sort of logical thing to me, now).
Plus, reusable vacuum bags not only help with keeping spools dust free: it's easier to store them (in my opinion), no need to keep the original filament boxes ! ;)
Thanks for picking up the topic, Angus!
I've been experimenting with filament drying for some time because my PLA starts breaking after exposition "to the elements" as you put it.
Turns out you need to use real big drying bags for a 1 kilogramm spool AND these need to be dried for several hours at 90°C themselves.
Although 100°C or above would definitely speed things up, the bags deteriorate from such high temperatures.
Never exceed the glass transition of the material. 50C for pla, 80c for pet. You will end up with a spool of solid plastic otherwise.
@@joemulkerins5250 He was talking about the silica bags I believe, not the rolls themselves.
Great demos! I'm not sure I get the appeal of a vacuum pump unless you're constantly switching out filament. I use the eSUN bags which came with a hand pump, it takes maybe 30 seconds to fully evacuate a bag. On a side note, it's crazy how literally every single time I have a question about 3D printing and look up what people have said on UA-cam, I always find a great answer from Maker's Muse.
I’ve been putting a few moisture absorbing satchels into a zip lock bag with all PETG and PLA filaments And never had a problem.
Same here, and I suspect many of us do the same. I'd like to have seen Angus compare the vac sealed bag to a ordinary zip lock bag, with or without a silica pack tossed in, rather than just comparing the vac bag to open air. I suspect the vac seal would not show a difference enough to be worth the extra effort or money, except perhaps for the most hydroscopic filiaments in the most humid environments.
@@ApKNJ One other thing I do after opening a roll is to put the Silica gel sacks straight into a zip lock bag, roll it up and seal it so it isn't sucking in moisture while the roll is in use. I also store the rolls in the boxes they came in (X3D) in a cupboard so they arent exposed to UV.
I bought about 50 of these bags during covid and have used them for 3 years now. They are great and work well, the 1st, the 2nd, and maybe even the third time that you open and re-seal the bags, but eventually, the bags won't hold a vacuum anymore. I wouldn't use them for filament that you open and use often, but for long-term storage of filaments that aren't used regularly, I think they are good. I see they have a V2 version of that bags now. I wonder if they hold up to repeated use.
Being using a FoodSaver vacuum system for years now. Some of the filament I have sealed have been sealed for up to 4 years. I've tried some filament after 2 years of storage and it comes out flawless. If there is a zipper on your sealed bag it will leak air slowly. The FoodSaver excels in this area because it truly is airtight. I've been using this system for 4 years and haven't had any problems with moisture.
I just ran across your comment. Are you using the 11" bag? I think it's the widest bag available. It looks like the filament spool fits but the bag isn't able to draw-in sufficiently to remove the air.
This is once again a super-helpful video... love your content and the straight-forward style of the presentation!
Cheers! I try to keep things real.
I have been using vacuum storage bags since day 1! Just the normal clothing/bedding ones. It works well!
You may have as well read my mind! I just opened three new PLA filaments for an art activism project. Resealing has been on my mind in the past couple weeks. I'm contending dusting off the vacuum packaging bags from Ikea many years ago (which is operated with household vacuum cleaners and a lot cheaper). A little relieved that PLA doesn't absorb moisture as badly. But then, I also print very infrequently so I am counting storage by month if not by year.
My dry box uses 4 angstrom molecular sieves. Would love to see a head to head of aggressive desiccants like molecular sieves or calcium oxide versus silica. The absorption at extremely low partial vapour pressure water could make them effective dryers.
I bought 2 sets of eSUN eVacuum kit when it first launched. Includes a hand pump, 2x sealing clips, desiccants, humidity monitor strips and 10 bags for US$20 each. Been great and works much faster than the USB pump in the video.
Hi, Angus! Big thanks for the review and tests!
Now I'm 100% sure that I need to dry any Nylon filament before printing every time. And I see that here is almost no difference between these "vacuum packages" and a simple DIY dry-box. Will save my money for more dry box parts. Thanx again!
The asmr in the begening is the best part of this video.
Living on the Highveld (1600m ASL) of South Africa I must say I haven't had any issues with moisture in my SA Filament PETG. It's generally pretty dry here, but we've had some really wet weather lately.
I kept the PETG it in the original packaging with a few packets of silica gel, but I've also left it out for a week or two and I've had some really good prints with no bubbling or stringing. Maybe I've just been really lucky.
Real quick shoutout for not view bating and forcing us to wait the 1-2 weeks for the final results
Damn you!!!! I literally spent hours yesterday looking for this very solution and only found small sous vide bags or huge doona bags online! As I live in Singapore humidity is massive and constant here. This is a great price for what it is and the added pump looks like a winner. Thanks!
Update - I ordered the bags. They ROCK! Great size for 1kg spool, the little pump is great and work a treat. Thanks for the recommendation.
It could be that although you’re pumping much of the air out you’re leaving more of the moisture behind. As you reduce the pressure the dew point will come down so moisture can start condensing out on the filament. The lower pressure also probably means the relative humidity in the bag is higher than ambient. Where the bag wins is the limited volume of moisture so the longer you need to store the better the benefits of the vac bag.
From what I read online air and water can still permeate through the plastic bags over time. So while it won't completely stop your filament from getting water logged it will definitely slow down the process.
Unfortunately due to shipping costs I'm only saving $3.00 using the coupon vs if I bought from PrintedSolid's Store.
Couldn't they make it from foil or something?
@@ImieNazwiskoOK that's what they do for moisture-sensitive electronic components: they use bags with foil layer, add desiccant, and put a tag with moisture-sensitive paint blobs that tell you if the bag has leaked or not when you open it. The foil is also good for protecting from static electricity.
Yes, most plastics are moisture-permeable. The fact that the filament itself absorbs moisture is an instant proof of that. I found out by experimentation that desiccant in plastic containers should be replaced about once in two months, which is too much maintenance.
I have found a maintenance-free method of storing the plastic dry forever: I've set up a box that slowly trickles air from my food freezer (by convection). That air is very dry. The only maintenance it takes is to de-ice the freezer more often, once every year approximately. Works great, it can even keep the nylon dry.
I've been using these for a few months and I like them. The power connection isn't great but it works fine.
I'd love to see a test after a couple months comparing Vacuum Bag vs regular ziplock bag with desiccant sachet. $40 isn't particularly expensive for a good long-term storage solution, but if it's not significantly better than a normal ziplock bag and the desiccant that came with the spool, then it's not really worth it.
I think this is a combination of what Eric Peeke, 3D Printing Science, and M Matthews said. The moisture is being left behind, AND the moisture is penetrating into the bag. A desiccant like silica gel would really help in the performance of the bag (with the PETG, not just nylon), and so would an aluminium coating.
I have been waiting for this, finally companies are realizing that they can pretty much run any small device on USB.
The batterys have been standard 3,7volt cells for an eternity by now for pretty much everything anyways.
I have an actual usb vacuum cleaner! Not a rubbish one, a rechargeable one!
It has to do with how much current the USB cables can provide. The new USB standards can go up to 5 amps, so you are seeing more devices powered by them. Older USB standards have much lower current.
Though we clean really regularly, this might be worth even just to keep the dust out of our printers. Thanks for your review, as always.
I have filament 7 years old, it will be funny to use it in future
Just got mine a few days ago, didn't even know you had done a video on it, buuuut im enjoying mine. Pretty solid setup!
FYI you can use a 5 gallon buckets with a PVC ball valve plumbed into the top to store filament long term.. Put your spools in the bucket, put your modified top on , hook your vacuum to the valve with it open while vacuum is being applied close the valve .. you now have a vacuum in the bucket with a half dozen spools stored in it as long as you want .. Total cost to store 6 spools at once around $5 usd.. The chance to design/print some adapters to mount the valve to the bucket top = PRICELESS,LOL
That's a pretty cool idea! The bucket doesn't collapse?
@@MakersMuse Not unless your using a SUPER BAD ARSE vacuum.. . I stumbled across this constructing low vacuum purge containers for purging air from 2 part casting materials.. Wish it was old you tube so I could just post a pic or 2 for you..
Nice to see a review of this, and thank you for mentioning it doesn't have a battery. I couldn't find anything that said if it had a battery or not, and saw no explanation about if it needed charging. Well, overnight "charging" didn't work :P
I remember when they announced the system, I went "ok, that's nice" but once they mentioned the price, I was sold because it was cheap compared to existing systems (also, if I wanted to get a nice dinner, it's sometimes the same cost... and I can't re-eat that dinner, unlike reusing the bags...). I think the biggest issue is the power, as you mentioned. Oddly, the best working power source for this has been a USB port on the back of a fancy webcam... Outside of that, it's reasonably priced for what it is, though may try commercial food bags just to see how they do. I wished more spools came with resealable bags... I may have to update that with "and a vacuum valve".
I got a knockoff version of the usb vacuum pump a while back from amazon and it does work surprisingly well. The reusable bags were a bit big for filament and are designed for clothes I think but it works well still. This seems like a rebranded version of the same thing with filament-sized bags but the price is fairly reasonable still..
Dehydrate the filament, then stick it in the freeze dryer, then make sure you are in a very dry room (use a dehumidifier) when you open it, and immediately make sure you add MANY desiccants when you vacuum bag the filament.
Finally, as you said, print directly from the dehydrator.
I have been saving my Desiccant bags for a while, I keep them in the bottom of my converted food dehydrator and always throw a few in when I bag up my filament, I just use 1 gallon zip locs and also dehydrate while printing, I bag the filament hot to minimize moisture content.
I made a special holder for my Sunlu dryer that mounts to my Ender 5 and has a lazy susan style bearing so it can swivel to follow the head. So I can have my filament dryer on and use it as a holder while printing. I find it helps prevent stringing, even with PLA.
any pics of your setup? I have a ender 5 plus
I will give it a shot. Haven't had an issue yet in the PNW's wet year but always better to have something for long term storage.
I use the PrintDry system and vacuum storage filament containers and I really like it
Honestly, when I buy PETG (filamentum, formfutura,....) I usually have to dry them right out of the box to get really clean prints, once I dried them for 6-8h in the oven I usually get clean prints no matter how long I leave them out.
A vacuum bag is great for stopping the filament from absorbing additional moisture, but it the filament will gradually increase in moisture content each time that it's used.
Using any form of sealed bag with (my preference) blue colour changing silica beads, will not only keep filament dry, but will dry out the moisture within the filament between each use.
Bonus for the colour changing beads; you know when they're 'full" and you can just pop them in the oven for an hour at 100°c and they'll be back to blue and ready to go.
Another note - silica bags/beads really don't last long until they've reached their maximum absorption. Most cheap silica bags ordered online have already been exposed to the air and are useless. Thus the advantage of the blue silica beads. I find about half a cup worth of silica is about the minimum if your filament has a little moisture in it.
I'm always amazed at the examples of prints that you show and how seemingly bad they always are. You said several times in this video "it's actually pretty good" but there wasn't a single print here that I think is even remotely good. Maybe i'm spoiled by my Prusa Mini, I3MKS, and heavily heavily modified CR10 printing exclusively with Prusament PETG and PLA but if any of my prints looked like this I would throw them away and start over. I also leave my Prusament PETG out for some times months and I never have any results like this.
Amazon sells "small" vacuum seal bags that come with a hand vacuum pump, for about half the price. Works well plus you don't need any power. I put "small" in air quotes only because the bags are quite larger than the standard filament spool, yet they still scrunch up enough to fit inside the standard filament box, if you keep your spools stored in their original boxes, that is.
I picked up a similar system eSUN are offering now, biggest difference is it uses a manual hand pump which I actually like since I’m always running out of outlets. The bags themselves look identical except for the branding. Even if you still need to dry after storing in these at least you could get away with a quicker drying run.
Thanks for making this video, Angus. I got mine a while ago when I was ordering some Elixir and saw it was on sale.
I noticed that sometimes when leaving the pump plggued in but not running it will sometimes turn on randomly by itself, so make sure to unplug it!
I also noticed similar results to what you found with the sealed filament. The filament I keep in the bags turned out super brittle. This particular roll was a Zyltech "special formula" that I received and printed in the same day (vacuum packed from factory) then immediately sealed it with the NanoVac. I brought it out today (after maybe a month) and the first maybe meter or so was super brittle but the rest is printing fine. I definitely think that a desiccant bag would be useful, perhaps definitely better, to keep in the sealed bags. I cannot see any way that it could hurt my filament, so I think I will definitely continue to use it along side with my RepBox.
it would also stop spools from unwinding i think i would still use it for the pla just to know everything was tidey and closed. though i hardly use my fdm printer. it is still good to know that i would not just have spools of pla just sitting open for over a year. :)
I reuse the large ziplock bags that Amazon Basics used to use for their filaments, suck out most of the air when I put up a roll, and generally keep 4-6 desiccant packs per roll even for PLA. But most of my prints are getting sold, not just for my own use. I still have to occasionally dry a roll, but usually only when I don't put it up for a while and dry out my desiccant packs every couple months.
I use food sealers. You still need a desiccant with these. These are fairly cheap from uline but you have to buy a lot of them. 85$ gets you about 1000. Lol. The reason you need desiccant is moisture. Plastic is not a moisture barrier.
Do you think the center of the spool may have affected the filament in any way? I dont think there would be enough air left in the center for it to affect the print that much but, maybe a revisit with off roll vs on roll filament in the vacuum bag?
No, the center would have the same vacuum as any other void. The whole coil has void space throughout since round filament does not completely flatten out against the next piece of round filament.
I never have filament issues, I notmally put my PLA and PETG back in the resealable bags that they come in (MG Chemicals filament), push out as much air as possible, leave the tiny silicone bag it, seal it and chuck it back in the box.
That said I can leave either of these filaments types on my open printer for a couple of months and it still prints just fine. I have a reel of TPU I bought Feb 2018, back when I started printed, it was left in an open bag for about a year and a half before I used it, it printed just fine.
Anyone who has experience drying and curing "herbs" can see what potentially is happening. During the drying process of herbs after the "material" appears to be dry and crispy and put into a airtight container and left for some time, Will return to a spongy "wet" condition. What is happening is moisture is being wicked to the surface from within the core of the material during hard/fast drying. When you finally put it in a stabilized environment and the humidity within the material stabilizes and equalize throughout the material.. also to note I recently got a filament dryer box and wanted to see how well it evenly heats/drys the roll of filament. I put in a color changing temperature sensitive pla filament and results were definitely surprising. I did a 24hr drying cycle and about 12 hours in only the outer portion of the roll had changed. It took nearly 20hrs before the roll appeared fully warmed. Keep i mind i still can't see all the filament. Only rhe outer surface and through the side windows of the roll. For context the filament changes from purple to pink above 31°c and had the dryer set to 55°c. After seeing how long it takes for the filament to reach "drying temp" i run my filament for 72 hours. Just some input from personal experience, keep up the great work Angus!! Been watching for over 3yrs
Which drying box did you get?
0:26 Usb 'C' port, which is nice to "C/see". Haha Angus, I "C" what you did there.
I like your idea of printing from the dehydrator. A custom spool holder and maybe mounting the dehydrator on its side so that the filament spool axis can be horizontal. My dehydrator is large enough to mount 2 spools horizontally I think, will need to give it a try. I have a large nylon print to try in the future and know it will need something like this to work.
My Seal a Meal has a hose and adapter that would work with the bags but the included pump with this system is nice and compact.
I can see that just vacuum packing alone will not dry the filament. I would dry it first before packing it. If you have some of the indicator cards with the color changing dots to pack with the filament would be a a good way of seeing how things are working. You can find the indicator cards on Amazon, I get them from work. They come with some of the surface mount electronic components and are reusable. I just dry them with the filament and throw them in the storage containers with the filament after it's dry.
Thanks for the review, I think I will give the bags a try.
Great product yet I use a big Ziplock bag and vacuum cleaner. Good for long term storage for my more special colored filaments. I'm glad a company came up with thier own system for it.
Instead of using small desiccant packs you could tip in a heap of rice(literally as much as you like). It's naturally a desiccant, it's cheap & can be reused. I've been using it for years to help with storing seeds that I don't want to germinate yet. It's absolutely. Should make a huge difference to how your filament comes out.
I use large bucket sized Tupperware type containers. Four rolls sit in each, on top of the four rolls sits a pouch of dessicant - not silica gel, though - these have what I think is calcium chloride plus a gelling agent. They are sold to be put on drawers or cabinets to keep your clothes from dampness. They are often scented, but you can get unscented ones, and even some containing charcoal for absorbing smells. The common brand here is "Thirsty Hippo", but I get the generic Tesco-branded ones. Daiso also sells their own brand. I put a hygrometer in with the rolls, the humidity comes down to about 20-22%. I wonder if the pump in this article is good enough for vacuum bagging foam wings...
Silicone desiccant can be bought in bulk, but you can get handy canisters of the stuff for ammunition boxes (probably costs more). Or I could get an altoids tin, drill some holes, add some metal mesh... Easily recharged with a warm oven, and most of the time you can do the same with filament, although a food dehydrator would be a better idea.
I remember Stephan from CNC kitchen doing a test of using a vacuum to dehydrate filament, and if memory serves, the results weren't great even with laboratory vacuum dehydrators.
There needs to be a filament bag/spool capable of holding at least a half kilo, compatible with the vacuum sealers used for food storage. I bet the valve on this bag is compatible with the vacuum attachment for my machine...
Thank you for the awesome review on these :D I recently got bags like those from an off brand company. They work, but they came with a hand pump (ouch my arms).
I've become a fan of these things. I use the PrintDry containers for filaments that I use frequently, but I've switched to using the Airlock bags for rolls I don't use as much, as the containers are bulky and take up a lot of extra shelf space. The bags store things much more efficiently. my only real complaint is that most of the USB-C cables I have seen to have too much housing and thus I have to hold the cable in place on the pump, (I mislaid the cable that came with it, of course.)
I still put a Dry & Dry moisture indicator and a couple of D&D desiccant packs in with each roll regardless of which kind of storage I'm using, and everything seems to work pretty well. I still like to run the filament through the dryer before using it if I'm making anything I want to turn out especially nice, but I do that even for new filament, so...
Was looking at vacuum bagging filament rolls with dessicant about 2-3 months ago. I was looking for bags that would be about the size of prusa bags but most were too small or too large or way too expensive. I was going to use the bags with a sunbeam (food saver) VS1300 - upright vacuum bag sealer machine.
The pump and bags look good and if you didn’t have a sealer already probably a good option.
Approx what size is the bag? On the kit the website links to (from description), shows 40x38cm with 15.75” x 13.38” so somethings awry, as I get 40 x 33.98cm.
In SMD-electronics you can order your chips from yourn dealer dryed to a specified humidity and delivered in sealed bags. Background is the chips has to be dryed to do not popcorn during reflow soldering.
These additional aluminium shielded bags are best what i ever get.
Best practice is to dry the filament the double then normal time. Give them including a 100% fresh (or reloaded 100°C for 5h) 200g drypack into the shieldedBag and seal it whith a sealing machine.
I am just using regular vaccum bags with desiccant and a vaccum cleaner. It keeps moisture and dust away. Yes Fiberlogy is a brand from Poland.
Great review, as usual, Angus thanks. A few months ago I decided to go with a fully insulated and temperature/humidity controlled room in my garage and it's made a huge difference. My prints are always perfect with no stringing even with filament stored out in the open (not in the room). Before I built the room I was having stringing problems even with PLA. I have a heater and dehumidifier in there controlled by two InkBird controllers. I think I'll give the vacuum system a miss.
What humidity do you keep your room at? Has it been fine long term? Thanks
Got sous vide, got a vacuum sealer. Now off to sous vide some filament 🤣
3D printer AMSR with vacumm any Fiberology spool - I do the same tapping each time I get onr of mine bags ;).(nice to see made in Poland so far). I do use simillar bags yet with hand pump.. Works like a charm.
Regards!
I recently ran out of black filament, and had to resort to a part roll of 1.75mm pla that had been in my cold and damp shed for a few years.
It printed fine.
I use MagicBag space saving vacuum bags. I trim the Medium size bag to fit a spool and use my FoodSaver to heat seal the end I cut. Works great and I can use a regular vacuum to provide the suction.
The more I’ve learned about 3D printing in the last couple months the more I’m stunned at the Ender 3 v1 performance.
My first print was a PETG benchy that came out better than ANY benchy I’ve seen thus far from anyone online (though not perfect, I’ve yet to stumble across a perfect one)
Something about angus’ voice is calming
I save mint tins, drill some small holes into them then fill them with indicating silica gel. That way I can stick the tins full of desiccant into an oven to regenerate them.
I’ve been printing with Nylon X and I make sure to keep my spools stored in vacuum sealed food saver bags with silica pouches inside, no issues at all.
Nylon is a bitch. Whatever you are doing you are doing right.
The filament might be drying unevenly in the dehydrator. The filament on the inside of the roll could retain a little moisture (because of less airflow during drying). This wouldn’t affect the test print done immediately (using drier filament from the outside of the roll). During storage under vacuum the residual moisture would redistribute more evenly through the filament, affecting the test print done following storage. Completely untested hypothesis but it would explain the results you got.
At work we use a amazon vacuum bag meant for pillows with desiccant to store our nylon. after pulling it out of the bag it sits in a dryer for about 10 minutes at 55c and then is ready for quality prints.
The thing that immediately comes to mind is that when you put them in the bag and seal it there is a big air trap in the middle of the spool.
Maybe if you print a cylinder to fill that gap the results might be slightly better?
I'd make the pump latch onto the valve, adds a bit to costs but it wouldn't fall off and you could actually get up and check stuff more reliably
Oh hey this is just like that old Ziplock thing. Hand-held vacuum pump and reusable bags.
From what I remember it was crap after a few usage, hopefully these do better over time.
Another factor is that you pulled filament off the spool and exposed potentially still "wet" filament that hadn't had enough heat penetration by the drying process to actually dry the filament. Drying after a spool is getting used and immediately being stored, can be just as important as drying before printing for this reason.
I store my filament spools in small containers (space for five or so) then put a household dessicant box and a cheap humidity indicator. It stays at around 30% where outside is ~75%. Dessicant lasts a couple of months because its a small volume. The box doesn't even need to be air-tight. When the indicator reaches ~40% I replace the dessicant. Stopped having issues with moisture on my prints since I started doing this.
USB-C ports are nice to C. I definitely agree though!
I think what might make more sense is to dehydrate the rolls, _then_ vacuum seal them for later. That way, they're ready to go as soon as you need them.
I use a system like this for storage but i pour some desiccant into the bag to add more humidity absorption.
I’ve been using the generic Chinese version of these bags with a manual hand pump from Amazon and they work great. Just need to use the large bags (which seem to be the exact same size as the ones from Polyalchemy). Mind you, they aren’t that much cheaper than these 🤷🏻♂️ I also use color-changing desiccant packs so I know if there’s moisture over time (mine change from dark blue to light pink when they are full of moisture). Then I can dry the desiccant packs in the microwave if needed.
Maybe I have low expectations, or I'm just lucky, but I just got a new SV06 printer and did a few print in place models, with what I now realise is filament I bought 3 and 1/2 years ago, which has just been sitting in my living room open and gathering dust for 3 years. Seems fine. Also printed your clearance gauge and 4 of the 6 rotated fine with it.
And it's definitely not because my house is dry, I live about 100m from the sea, relative humidity is regularly >95%
For anyone that was wondering if their charger could run this, while his said the "total output" was 8 amps, it adds all the ports up, which means each port, assuming they're all the same which they most likely are in this case, only can do 2 amps, which is pretty standard, and can only do 2 amps even if it's the only port being used.
VERY NICE!!!!!! And TYVM for the discount code, I bought this.
The vacuum bag doesn't dry the filament, it just prevent further moisture absorption. The desiccant bag is the one doing the dehumidifying job. I bet if you put lots of desiccant bags into a big sealed bag (non-vacuum), it would work quite well.
Desiccant bags don't dry the filament either.
They just absorb moisture from the air.
The thought process behind the vacuum bags is that without air you don't have any moisture.
@@Jehty_ But moisture has already been absorbed by the filament, even without air in the bag, you are just vacuum sealing moist filament.
@@tatfung no you are vacuum sealing (somewhat) dry filament.
Fiberlogy delivers great filaments, I am using ASA and it's great
Thanks for the review and testing!
- I wonder if the absorbed moisture came in part from not drying the roll between printing and bagging.
- Filling an old sock or something with desiccant and wrapping it around the inside of the spool may protect against the residual moisture from the trapped air. Bonus, you may get a better or faster vacuum, as the plastic won't have to bury itself in the roll as much.
Interesting but not convinced it’s worth it for me anyway. I store my filaments in resealable bags which are very cheap and throw in some desiccant too. If the filament has real issues I can use my drier but it’s an interesting test. Thanks Angus
I have a really shiny filament like that and love it. It's Silky Yellow from Matterhackers.
I would guess, it has to do with the moisture in the filament in the inner loops of the spool. It might just have diffused outwards... After 8 hours there is probably still quite some moisture in the inner parts of the spool. (CNC Kitchen did some in-depth tests about that.)
I would suggest to try it out with just a small sample of the filament in the bag or with a spool which is dried for several days!
That looks useful to start with some little composite materials projects
I store my hygroscopic filaments in a large clear plastic tote I made using window seals and a cheap tote from home depot. It stays at about 28% RH with a 45-60% RH environment. For my extremely hygroscopic filaments I use an ezy storage IP67 tote that is incredibly well sealed and will hit 18% RH with silica gel and with better desiccants it'll easily get 5% or lower.
I actually don't think it absorbs moisture while in the bag, in any noticeable way at least. More likely is that its small cavities are more prone to suck in a bit of moisture as soon as it comes out since it has been in a vacuum and when the pressure from the outside hits it it will absorb a little bit easier. And also the moisture that it contained while exposed before vacuumed is still in it - so it doesn't really remove any moisture as the drier does. But drying it, then vacuum seal it would make a bit more sense. It would be interesting to look at that as an comparison to the freshly dried filament. Say you use a roll of filament, dry it and seal it, than 3 weeks later you want to use it but instantly instead of first having to dry it. Does that work as well or not? More as a time saver when you are about to print. Sure, the mount of work will be about the same but less planning before you're gonna use the specific filament. But just keeping moisture out has it's benefits, of course, as you said it shouldn't need as much time in the drier, maybe just an hour or so.