This is my situation. My great-grandfather naturalized when my grandmother (born in the USA) was 3. As far as I can tell, his wife (my great-grandmother) never naturalized on her own. This was all prior to the Cable Act of 1922.
Will you make a video to discuss the minor issue and the recent ruling? Cassation Court ruling (Decision 17161 of June 15, 2023. It could negative potentially affect thousands, if not millions of eligible people. Basically, the cassation court just ruled that minors born outside of Italy do lose their citizenship when their parent naturalizes. Potentially, this could lead to a HUGE drop in eligible people, and a HUGE increase in 1948 cases.
Thank you for covering this topic. My case falls into this category. I lost my case in the lower court of Rome. My appeal will be heard in 3 weeks. We remain hopeful
@@karencubberly1206 Same thing, I haven't gone to court yet either. Do you know where your case will be heard? Mine will be heard in Bari. Fortunately, it is my understanding that the minor issue has been practically irrelevant outside Rome (and that, in Rome, it is almost always resolved on appeal), although the data of course remain very limited. I wonder if moving 1948 cases to local courts has caused judges to feel a slightly greater sense of kinship with the petitioners whose cases they decide and thus to be less harsh and impersonal in their judgments, especially if they see reminders of local identity in the vital records (e.g., region-specific surnames). It would be very interesting to know...
@jvmt8719 I wonder all that too!!! I also wonder, with the population in Italy dropping so quickly, why they would turn anyone that was interested down. My family was from Abruzzo, so I'm guessing it would be somewhere there. Still getting all the paperwork together.
@@karencubberly1206 Yeah, I feel the same way. I believe that the formula to determine where your case will be heard is to find the location of the Court of Appeal with jurisdiction over your ancestor's comune, and your case will be heard at the District Court (Tribunale) in that same location. At first, I thought it was simply the District Court with jurisdiction over your ancestor's comune, but then I found out that someone whose ancestor was from Foggia (which is also in Apulia but north of Bari) also has to file with the District Court of Bari, even though there is also a District Court in Foggia (which, like the District Courts of Bari and Trani, come under the Court of Appeal of Bari).
Marco: In this video you focus on an Italian imigrant who moved to the US and then has a child prior to 1948 BORN IN THE USA, but then naturalizes while the child is still a minor. Is there any difference in a case where, the child was BORN IN ITALY prior to the family emigrating to the US, and then the father (my GGGF) naturalized while the child (my GGM) was still a minor? I believe my GGM was married by the time my GGGF was approved for naturlization, and therefore was not naturalized along with him, as a result. One key piece of information in leading me to believe this, is that when my mother helped my GGM apply for Social Security benefits in the US, she was required to show her (deceased) husband's birth certificate and their marriage certificate. This leads me to believe that my GGM only derived her rights in the US (after marriage) from her husband's US citizenship, but not as a citizen in her own right. Does any of this make a difference? Or am I cut off? Thank you so much for any insight.
Great information! One suggestion to add is the age of a “minor.” I am going through a 1948 case and at first didn’t think I had the “minor issue” because the child (my GF) was 18. However, I learned he was considered a minor until 21 under Italy’s laws so the child was still a child at 18. In the US that is not a minor so this may help others who may have a 1948 case.
Both countries changed the age of majority from 21 to 18 in the 1970s, so the time period in which it was 18 in the US but 21 in Italy was very narrow.
Here in New York prior to 1920 the Spouse and Children were Automatically Added to the Petitioner's Naturalization Process. In this case The Petitioner is the Only one who by choice was Naturalized and should be the only one effected. This is one of the Issues that Many 1948 Cases have the Simular Issue in common.
Excellent video, as usual! Could you please have a look at this case and answer a few questions? My great grandparents left Italy for Germany in 1903. My grandfather was born in Germany in 1907. As Germany did not grant citizenship based on birth in the country, my grandfather was an Italian citizen at the time of his birth. In 1908 my great grandfather emigrated to the US and my great grandmother + grandfather joined him in 1911. In February of 1922 (before the Cable Act), my great grandfather was naturalized a US citizen. At that moment, my great grandmother and 15 year old grandfather were automatically and involuntarily naturalized as well. Although the rules of the US made my then 15 year old grandfather a US citizen and my great grandfather was naturalized by choice, my great grandmother was not naturalized by choice and she did not voluntarily choose that her son, my grandfather be naturalized either. If the Italian constitution of 01.01.1948 grants equal rights to women, retroactively back to the the passing of the Cable Act of 09.22.1922, then I understand from other 1948 case videos, that my great grandmother could retroactively retain her Italian citizenship because her US naturalization was involuntary. I understand from this video that my great grandmother could not have passed on her Italian citizenship to my grandfather, because he became a naturalized a US citizen at the same time as his parents. But doesn’t my great grandmother have the constitutional right to pass on Italian citizenship to her minor son, my grandfather? And doesn’t that constitutuional right supersede Italian law and US naturalizaton law? Finally, If the point of a 1948 case is to bypass Italian law and seek a court ruling based on constitutional rights guaranteed in the 1948 Italian constitution, don’t I at least a chance of success, given the facts of my case? I would so much appreciate a response. Thankyou!
9:16 - It would be really helpful to have more in-depth information on how the naturalization of the parent affected the minors when the citizenship wasn't willfully relinquished by the minors. Ex: the minor child was already married, the minor child was over 18 in the US, etc. I don't quite understand how a child born in the US would be allowed to have dual citizenship but their sibling who was born in Italy would have it removed if the parents naturalized. It just doesn't make sense because the child born in Italy didn't have a choice in the matter.
It would also be helpful if we could get information on how this would be documented with US documents. Ex: how many searches do you need to do through USCIS, etc.
I’m pretty sure this interpretation will be the reason I am ineligible. My great grandmother, born in Italy and came to the USA as a minor, may have been naturalized as a minor with my great-great grandfather. I’m anxiously awaiting my great grandmother’s naturalization records to see if that’s the case or she gained citizenship through marriage to my great grandfather, who was also born in Italy but naturalized in the US prior to my grandfathers birth. Wish me luck. Children that don’t give up their citizenship willingly and only lose it because of their parents should keep it, in my biased opinion lol.
2 of my grandparents and 4 of my great grandparents came from Italy … different times, different circumstances … I’m so confused. Should I just focus on one?
You only need one valid line, so focus on the ones you can more easily document. If you have a potential line that allows you to go through a consulate, and not the courts, it may be required for you to use that line, and it will typically be cheaper as you are not paying court costs and attorney's fees.
This is my situation. My great-grandfather naturalized when my grandmother (born in the USA) was 3. As far as I can tell, his wife (my great-grandmother) never naturalized on her own. This was all prior to the Cable Act of 1922.
Will you make a video to discuss the minor issue and the recent ruling? Cassation Court ruling (Decision 17161 of June 15, 2023. It could negative potentially affect thousands, if not millions of eligible people. Basically, the cassation court just ruled that minors born outside of Italy do lose their citizenship when their parent naturalizes. Potentially, this could lead to a HUGE drop in eligible people, and a HUGE increase in 1948 cases.
This has now become a directive to Italian Consulates and comuni,
@@iseolake yep
Just received my letter of Italian citizenship recognition from the consulate in San Francisco and submitted the AIRE registration.
Thank you for covering this topic. My case falls into this category. I lost my case in the lower court of Rome. My appeal will be heard in 3 weeks. We remain hopeful
Good luck! I'm in this predicament too. Haven't gone to court yet.
@@karencubberly1206 Same thing, I haven't gone to court yet either. Do you know where your case will be heard? Mine will be heard in Bari.
Fortunately, it is my understanding that the minor issue has been practically irrelevant outside Rome (and that, in Rome, it is almost always resolved on appeal), although the data of course remain very limited.
I wonder if moving 1948 cases to local courts has caused judges to feel a slightly greater sense of kinship with the petitioners whose cases they decide and thus to be less harsh and impersonal in their judgments, especially if they see reminders of local identity in the vital records (e.g., region-specific surnames). It would be very interesting to know...
@jvmt8719 I wonder all that too!!! I also wonder, with the population in Italy dropping so quickly, why they would turn anyone that was interested down. My family was from Abruzzo, so I'm guessing it would be somewhere there. Still getting all the paperwork together.
@@karencubberly1206 Yeah, I feel the same way.
I believe that the formula to determine where your case will be heard is to find the location of the Court of Appeal with jurisdiction over your ancestor's comune, and your case will be heard at the District Court (Tribunale) in that same location. At first, I thought it was simply the District Court with jurisdiction over your ancestor's comune, but then I found out that someone whose ancestor was from Foggia (which is also in Apulia but north of Bari) also has to file with the District Court of Bari, even though there is also a District Court in Foggia (which, like the District Courts of Bari and Trani, come under the Court of Appeal of Bari).
@@jvmt8719 Interesting! Thank you 😊
Marco: In this video you focus on an Italian imigrant who moved to the US and then has a child prior to 1948 BORN IN THE USA, but then naturalizes while the child is still a minor.
Is there any difference in a case where, the child was BORN IN ITALY prior to the family emigrating to the US, and then the father (my GGGF) naturalized while the child (my GGM) was still a minor? I believe my GGM was married by the time my GGGF was approved for naturlization, and therefore was not naturalized along with him, as a result. One key piece of information in leading me to believe this, is that when my mother helped my GGM apply for Social Security benefits in the US, she was required to show her (deceased) husband's birth certificate and their marriage certificate. This leads me to believe that my GGM only derived her rights in the US (after marriage) from her husband's US citizenship, but not as a citizen in her own right. Does any of this make a difference? Or am I cut off?
Thank you so much for any insight.
Great information! One suggestion to add is the age of a “minor.” I am going through a 1948 case and at first didn’t think I had the “minor issue” because the child (my GF) was 18. However, I learned he was considered a minor until 21 under Italy’s laws so the child was still a child at 18. In the US that is not a minor so this may help others who may have a 1948 case.
Both countries changed the age of majority from 21 to 18 in the 1970s, so the time period in which it was 18 in the US but 21 in Italy was very narrow.
Here in New York prior to 1920 the Spouse and Children were Automatically Added to the Petitioner's Naturalization Process. In this case The Petitioner is the Only one who by choice was Naturalized and should be the only one effected. This is one of the Issues that Many 1948 Cases have the Simular Issue in common.
Excellent video, as usual! Could you please have a look at this case and answer a few questions? My great grandparents left Italy for Germany in 1903. My grandfather was born in Germany in 1907. As Germany did not grant citizenship based on birth in the country, my grandfather was an Italian citizen at the time of his birth. In 1908 my great grandfather emigrated to the US and my great grandmother + grandfather joined him in 1911. In February of 1922 (before the Cable Act), my great grandfather was naturalized a US citizen. At that moment, my great grandmother and 15 year old grandfather were automatically and involuntarily naturalized as well.
Although the rules of the US made my then 15 year old grandfather a US citizen and my great grandfather was naturalized by choice, my great grandmother was not naturalized by choice and she did not voluntarily choose that her son, my grandfather be naturalized either. If the Italian constitution of 01.01.1948 grants equal rights to women, retroactively back to the the passing of the Cable Act of 09.22.1922, then I understand from other 1948 case videos, that my great grandmother could retroactively retain her Italian citizenship because her US naturalization was involuntary.
I understand from this video that my great grandmother could not have passed on her Italian citizenship to my grandfather, because he became a naturalized a US citizen at the same time as his parents. But doesn’t my great grandmother have the constitutional right to pass on Italian citizenship to her minor son, my grandfather? And doesn’t that constitutuional right supersede Italian law and US naturalizaton law? Finally, If the point of a 1948 case is to bypass Italian law and seek a court ruling based on constitutional rights guaranteed in the 1948 Italian constitution, don’t I at least a chance of success, given the facts of my case?
I would so much appreciate a response.
Thankyou!
9:16 - It would be really helpful to have more in-depth information on how the naturalization of the parent affected the minors when the citizenship wasn't willfully relinquished by the minors. Ex: the minor child was already married, the minor child was over 18 in the US, etc.
I don't quite understand how a child born in the US would be allowed to have dual citizenship but their sibling who was born in Italy would have it removed if the parents naturalized. It just doesn't make sense because the child born in Italy didn't have a choice in the matter.
It would also be helpful if we could get information on how this would be documented with US documents. Ex: how many searches do you need to do through USCIS, etc.
Marco: What regions have not permitted this to be aproved?
so if the woman who passed down the citizenship never naturalised but the father did, would that impact my case?
Are vital documents with Apostille still valid after 20 - 30 years?
I’m pretty sure this interpretation will be the reason I am ineligible. My great grandmother, born in Italy and came to the USA as a minor, may have been naturalized as a minor with my great-great grandfather. I’m anxiously awaiting my great grandmother’s naturalization records to see if that’s the case or she gained citizenship through marriage to my great grandfather, who was also born in Italy but naturalized in the US prior to my grandfathers birth. Wish me luck. Children that don’t give up their citizenship willingly and only lose it because of their parents should keep it, in my biased opinion lol.
2 of my grandparents and 4 of my great grandparents came from Italy … different times, different circumstances … I’m so confused. Should I just focus on one?
You only need one valid line, so focus on the ones you can more easily document. If you have a potential line that allows you to go through a consulate, and not the courts, it may be required for you to use that line, and it will typically be cheaper as you are not paying court costs and attorney's fees.