Sweet Bow Tie! One thing to keep in mind, is that that setup technically isn’t redundant. Hypothetically if one of those anchors fails, due to the slipperiness of dyneema, the clove hitch or girth hitch will slip out completely at around 4-6kN again if one of those anchors fails. Not saying you’re gonna fail a good bolt at all, but just keep the awareness up and understand all consequences.
I agree, a failing bolt is incredibly rare, but having the cord or sling cut due to falling rock is more likely. I don't think this system will be redundant in the case of rockfall cutting the sling.
very cool It also has the marginal advantage that, for a given length of sling or cordelette, this configuration produces a smaller v-angle than an overhand or figure 8 loop. The smaller v-angle translates to marginally less force on the anchors.
Eric, you are right, it uses less material therefore reducing angle. I make most of my anchors now with a single shoulder length sling, vice a double. Now I carry more singles which gives me a more versatile rack.
You always want 30-90 degrees of angle. Producing less angle than that isn’t better. Once you go below 30 degrees, you easily fully load one anchor with slight rope angles.
I've been using this now on several multipitch trips, for bolt and gear anchors. I love the V-clove, as I have started calling it. It's so fast and uses less material than an overhand or fig 8 knot, which can be a big benefit when your trad anchors are far away from each other. Not to mention how easy it is to tear down. Thank you! However, I now tie it "the other way" - with the initial clip of the HMS biner facing up and out, then reach behind and across with the thumb down to twist and create the clove. This is because the way shown in the video puts the gate of the locking master point biner facing the wall, which is less desirable than having it "down and out." You can see this when he lets go of the biner at 1:12. It takes some practice to tie it the opposite from this video but I think it's just that much better.
I also came to the same observation when I was trying this method at home. Certainly something to be aware of, since screwgate facing the wall could result in the untightening of the screwgate and potential unclipping of the master biner.
Pretty slick! I have not seen this technique before. Thanks for posting it. Small suggestion: Rather then seeing how adept you are tying this six or seven times quickly, slowing it down a couple times or even putting in a slow-motion sequence would be helpful to learn.
+johngo6283 Hi John, glad you enjoyed it. I'll try adding a slow mo sequence. Brent wasn't trying to show off. He just does it so often in his guiding business that's like tying a shoelace for him. Cheers.
Just so you guys watching this know, you can slow down youtube videos easily by hitting setting and playback speed. I use this a lot when learning new techniques
@@airtitimes It is redundant? If one of the bolts fail or either of the slings towards the bolt fail it will still hold. Cool thing about the clove hitch is that it only needs one side to have tension for it to hold the biner. Just like the figure 8 it will stay locked even when one side is compromised.
Great meeting you a few weeks ago Brent at Skaha, and thanks again for taking the time to chat about anchors. I'll be running a Alpine Skills Course with the VOC soon and will definitely hammer in the importance of multi-directional anchors on multi-pitch! Cheers,
After watching the DMM videos carefully, the clove hitch variation at an equalized anchor failed, versus the one with a knot at the master point, hardly a recommendation. This appears to be a misinterpretation of some test, extrapolated out to a new, but possibly flawed, application. The most overlooked final test of anchors by DMM used two 8.5mm lead rope ties with clove hitches into separate anchors, joined at a master point (harness tie-in whatever) with a figure 8. Drop tested at Fall Factor 2, nothing failed, and only resulted in impact force of 7.6 kN, safely below the 10kN threshold for bodily injury. Once again, the lead rope is the safest tie-in, and nothing else comes close. All of these pseudo-guide's modes are not just deceptively fancy - they're almost all actually far weaker, and less safe in impact loading. Only toperoping loads may be low enough to put onto these sorts of anchor systems.
Managed to replicate your clove hitch technique without slowing down the vid! I do like to experiment with knotting techniques as those that fail also tell you something about how the knot works
Wouldn’t the figure 8 make the anchor redundant if one bolt came loose or was cut you still have one side secure. It seems that with the clove if one side came loose or cut you’d loose the whole anchor system.
This is cool, and a good tool to have in your arsenal as long as you know the limitations and drawbacks...it is unfortunate that you never mention the drawbacks in the video which seems like the responsible thing to do. This anchor does not have dynamic equalization...and the manner in which you tighten the knot each time could lead newbies and people just not paying attention to think it does. You don't mention that it doesn't have a usable shelf or the importance of having it properly dressed to avoid significant extension or (in extreme and very uncommon scenarios) catastrophic failure.
Fair point. We've updated the description. We certainly never imagined that this video was going to reach any further than our own little community of climbers
Sooo much garbage advice on youtube, but sometimes one gets lucky and finds one like this... I've been slowly "converting" to dyneema, read/watched the DMM tests, but you just brought it all together in a nice, concise package. Perfect video. Subscribed.
The clove absorbs some force because it slips if one anchor blows, but there is an increased risk here of the entire clove hitch coming undone and losing the masterpoint if the sling is cut (by rock/ice fall, etc.) too close to the knot and then the cut end slips into the knot. So just be aware that this setup is much less redundant in case of the sling being cut than with other knots which are harder to untie but slip much less under asymmetric load, especially when using dyneema slings.
Not very safe in case one end is cut as the dyneema sling slides quite easily, especially the 6-8mm are probably quite dangerous for the presented application.....check out this video ua-cam.com/video/UMuCkC3jshA/v-deo.html
...referred more than a couple people to this video already. This is right up there with discovering fire and the wheel. Okay, maybe I'm embellishing a bit... Thanks.
Does anyone know if there has been testing done using dyneema slings and clove hitches? Ive only ever used them with rope so I like evidence before I trust anything new :) Dyneema is slippery.
For the love of god......thank you! Stupid good technique and vid...Brilliant!.... well done, top man.... All those times breaking apart a figure 8 after a big whipper......nevermore.... edit: okay so after playing with this technique I found that I aways get a twist/overlap in my clove......not a perfectly dressed clove if you will....I've been working with 4mm so might not be that big of a detriment with webbing but still you reference "well dressed" cloves in your citations....the over hand turn with two lines leads to an overlap.....Am I doing something wrong? edit again......I figured it out......before the clove, place top line over bottom line (a pre overlap if you will) - execute your technique and its perfectly dressed.....Sorry....this is killer..!!!
If I'm guiding and leading all the pitches (bolted anchors), I need places to attach 1) myself (clove), 2) the Guide mode belay device, and 3) my 2nd when he/she arrives. How do you do that? Clip 3 lockers into the master point? That sounds like a lot. With 2 biners only, if the 2nd cloves into the same biner as me, then I have trouble escaping to lead the next pitch. If 2nd cloves into the belay biner, I have trouble removing the device. Should the 2nd just clip a new biner into the master point biner and clove to that? Or add a whole second alpine draw into my biners on the bolts? It's starting to sound complicated. I read all the comments below and don't see this scenario addressed. Did you ever make that next video (not the trad one, the one about belaying etc.)? I want to love this but need help seeing it in practice.
Hi Luke! Thanks for the question. I really gotta chase Brent down and shoot the followup video. In the meantime I'll tell you how I manage this. I don't much like using a single locking carabiner as the masterpoint as I don't like everything else getting snarled into the ATC. So, I put two locking biners into the clover. 1 for for the belay device. The other as the masterpoint for me and the other climbers to clip into. Either by clipping their locking carabiner to the Masterpoint carabiner, or by clipping a locking carabiner to the Masterpoint and then clove hitching the rope from their harness to the their carabiner. (takes about 5x longer to explain than to do). Like a lot of climbers I used to avoid going metal to metal, but if you watch professional rope riggers or rescuers they do it all the time. There are other ways to manage this but... I'll save it for Brent to explain in the video.
@@Mountainmoxie Is it safe to use the shelf in this setup? In my backyard experimenting it seems like loading the shelf pulls the clove hitch apart which seems likely for the whole masterpoint knot to untie if one strand of the sling were cut.
Hi, there isn't really a shelf and it's not considered safe to clip above the clove hitch. Either user a single locker as your master for everything else (commonly done in rope access work) or put two locking carabiners into the clove hitch. If the anchor placement in relation to your belay dictates the need for a shelf then another type of anchor would be preferable. Cheers!
Below, I had a question about how this works for anchoring the climber, using the guide mode belay device, and anchoring the second when they arrive, particularly since there is no "shelf." . MountainMoxie gave me a good verbal answer below; I just found another video ua-cam.com/video/i3V52XkfIzo/v-deo.html that basically covers what he describes in words, in that it employs a single large carabiner as a master point, and then you clip other biners into it. It's not using any slings or clove hitches but once the master point carabiner is in, the linked video shows how you use it to anchor, belay, and anchor your partner.
Yep, that's it. Nice find. Like I said before. Sometimes I like having two lockers in the clove hitch to act as two master points. It's not essential in anyway, I just like keeping the belay clear of everything else.
Was just thinking the same thing. Surely the point of having two anchors is in case one of them fails. I'm guessing that a clove hitch would just slip out.
Big, big, big emphasis on a well-dressed clove hitch here, ideally with all the sling strands laying flat and not twisted over each other. Especially with dyneema slings, a loose clove will slip several inches before tightening itself if one anchor point fails, potentially all the way off the end of the sling if the clove is not tightened at all. This is less of a concern if a bolt/piece of pro blows than it is for rock/ice falling and cutting the sling, as a cut right near the knot could potentially cause the cut strand to roll into the clove and the entire masterpoint could fail. Putting clove hitches on each individual carabiner clipped to bolts/pro will mitigate this issue for a single cut strand but doesn't do much for a blown piece.
Isn't the drawback of this anchor system the fact that if one of your two pieces fails, the sling will pull through the clove? Compared to a figure eight or overhand master point which has two independent legs of the anchor.
When you're at an anchor it's quite easy to put some load on the clove hitch and dress it tight. However, it's still easy to slip the biner out to release the clove hitch, unlike untying a loaded overhand or figure eight. As before, not suggesting this is the only anchor setup a climber should use but it's a good one to have in your bag of tricks. Personally about 80% of my anchors are built with a clove hitch now.
There's been a lot of exploration of this in the 6 years since we first made this video. I'd check into some of the tests done by people like 'how not to' as they demonstrate how this anchor style can fail. Like many things in climbing there is some balancing of risks. I use this anchor a lot when multipitching, needing speed and not anticipating high loads on the anchor combined with rock fall. When I'm new routing, or working a pitch where the risks of rock fall and factor two leader falls onto the anchor are more likely then I choose a different configuration. Hope this helps.
I heard you're not supposed to clip the biner directly to the chain on a bolted mount but instead you clip the biner to the mount and under the chain it's more safe ...
couple of questions 1st - Can this be used as a top rope set up with 7mm cordelette as well, the same way and still be safe? 2nd - I noticed the first time he was only using 1 carbiner at first before talking about top rope set-up....what application would you use 1 carbiner for? Thanks in advance!
Hi Tristin, 7mm cordelette works fine. For an unmonitored top rope anchor, before you tighten the clove hitch down on the master locking carabiner.. slide a 2nd one in, and then snug it all down. Then you'll have a two carabiners in at the master.
Have you considered the fact thar the clove hitch reduces the strength of the sling by 50%? Compered to the figure eight knot which only reduces it by 30%
Hi Morten, If you refer to the supporting article on our website at mountainmoxie.com you'll see links to the tests by DMM showing the strength tests. The clove hitch is also one of the anchors that Petzl recommends.
Its a great paradox. Putting the hitch in the sling weakens the sling. But the dynamic properties of the hitch makes the entire system stronger. In any case it makes the masterpoint easy adjustable which I really like.
The simplest would be to use a sliding X, no knot or hitch at all. Of course that leaves the system open to extension. Is that why you prefer the clove hitch?
Sliding X has high shock load risk. Plus, sliding x does not protect against sling failure. Only bolt failure. Clove hitch protects against shock load, bolt failure, and sling failure.
The sliding X is only a good solution when you are 100% sure that neither node will fail. In a new 2 stainless bolt configuration this is plausible. For all other anchors, ice and rock included, you should ensure the inability to extend. The clove hitch is the simplest solution, other solutions are overhand or figure8 focal points.
Assuming the first carabiner is used to anchor the climber using a clove hitch and the rope, would you add a carabiner at the focal point to belay off the anchor in guide mode?
You can definitely add a carabiner at the focal point. This is something I do when I am with only one partner. If I am with 2 partners I clip everything in to the focal point carabiner.
i don't climb....what's the point of adding the additional creating the anchor point with the clove hitch? is it so you spread the load between the two screws in the rock face?
Supposedly, the clove hitch will hold the carabiner in place if one of the anchor points pulls out. I'm not convinced that it is secure enough, but he seems to have the expertise.
@@joed9843, while I'm not an expert, what you said is my concern as well. Since the clove hitch can slide, it seems to me that tere's a chance everything could come completely undone.
Have you experimented using this technique on a three piece gear anchor? Just wondering how another two strands of webbing would effect the clove hitch at the focal point? Thanks so much for the video, I will be adding this to my tool box for sure. Take care.
+Kevin Hardy Hi Kevin, We've recorded a video showing the clove hitch in use with a three piece gear anchor. Some slacker (me) just has to finish editing it. I'll try and get that done in the next few days and post it up.
Kevin, sorry for not responding sooner, we are working on another video showing the triple and quad cloves. This is the perfect solution for trad anchors with minimal material at the focal point.
sorry if this has already been addressed as there are a ton of comments. what about the shelf? when i die my figure 8 or overhand i can grab the strands above the knot to clip myself in and use the area below the knot for my belay device and all is clean. is the only solution with this anchor system to clip everything to the area below the hitch? i love the idea, it was a huge lightbulb that went off and just want to make sure im using it correctly :).
Hi Matthew. Yep, it's been discussed a few times. Short version. There is no shelf. You have to work from what's in the clove hitch. Typically I'll put two locking carabiners in the clove, or use a single large locker as the master point that I secure to and belay from. Sometimes... this is a pain in the ass and it's nice to have a more traditional anchor with a shelf but most of the time it's not an issue.
@Brent Peters (or Mountain Moxie)...great system, will try it out. But, can you use the shelf on the clove hitch or is there only one master point with this setup?? Thanks!
Being someone a bit paranoid and new to climbing would there be any downside to using this system with two separate slings clovehitched to a single or two carabiners? I see a lot in this comments the carabiner won't slip if the knot is dressed well, and just curious wether there is any downside to reduced strength in system if you just use two slings and two seperate clovehitched into your carabiner(s) - then in case you mess up/don't dress your clovehitch well, and one fails, the other one is still in place.
Hi, I am confused over what your primary concern is. The major benefits of the clove hitch anchor are is it's speed in building, ease of breakdown and needing less materials (shorter slings). If you are adding extra slings and knots/hitches then you'd be better off with a different type of anchor. The AMGA has some excellent videos on more standard anchors like the quad or the standard figure-8. Hope that helps.
There are always downsides to *any* anchor system and it is unfortunate that this video doesn't mention them. It is only equalized in one direction of pull (ie it's not dynamically equalized), as other comments have mentioned it doesn't have a usable shelf, it's important that it is properly dressed to avoid significant extension or (in extreme and very uncommon scenarios) catastrophic failure. With regard to your specific question, if you were using 2 slings you'd be better off not using the clovehitch. Using the clovehitch would eliminate the dynamic equalization that using 2 slings provides and it would just add an extra unnecessary knot which is generally not a good idea. There are a couple ways to set up an anchor like this if you're using 2 slings, I'd suggest looking them up.
Is it really safe to use those little PAS slings for a top rope though? I just know they say it's bad to shock load those types of slings, and you should avoid it at all costs. Will they hold If an unintended shock suddenly occurs for some reason?
Hi Casey, it's important to understand what 'shock load' means in regards to climbing anchors. When you are top-roping through any static anchor, the climbing rope is the dynamic (it stretches) component. The caution in using dyneema slings is if a climber is connected directly to the sling. Without a dynamic component in the system it's possible to break the sling in even a fairly short fall. This is primarily relevant when climbers are clipped into an anchor with a sling or tether. It's critically important to not allow any significant slack between the climber and the anchor. For this reason many people prefer to clove hitch the climbing rope into the anchor rather than use a sling or worse a daisy chain.
@@Mountainmoxie Ok, understood! Thanks for the quick reply, much appreciated! I love this method and I love using those slings for toprope anchors. Makes everything super fast and easy to setup and to take down.
If you break a strand on either side of the clove hitch, yes. If the clove hitch is properly dressed you can lose one side of the anchor (failed bolt or cut sling) and not have a catastrophic failure. You'd probably still shit your pants though.
@@TheCameraStoreShorts thanks man. Sorry for another question but is it safe to shock load a dynema sling? I've heard they arent but I see a lot of anchors made with them
Depends on what you mean by 'shock load'. The issue with dyneema slings is they (like most slings) are static. Or in other words, they do not absorb force by stretching. This is well explained in this video: ua-cam.com/video/Vrgadjo9niY/v-deo.html
There is better way how to do clove hitch. In your way the carabiner lock tends to aim towards the rock. But it should be the the opposite. If you try to do it on more rigid sling, you will see it cleary.
Audrey Pauls clipping into the shelf when you've built the anchor with a clove hitch like that has some potentially very nasty consequences as there is the possibility that when you remove the master point carabiner the shelf just vanishes!! Try it at home and you should see how this could happen. Your best bet would be to clip everything (and everyone) into the master point carabiner with more lockers like you would the master point loop of an anchor tied with a fig 8 or overhand. But definitely don't use the shelf of a clove hitch anchor like this! It's a little bit worrying that this didn't get a mention in the video...
Good answer from @just.joepotter Seems to be hard concept but we don't use a shelf. You clip into the masterpoint. When Brent is back from Denali we'll shoot a video to demonstrate.
two minor drawbacks: 1) have to use additional "master" biner when multiple things are clipped to the anchor. 2) Shelf must not be used, if the shelf is used and the master biner removed, anything clipped to the shelf will fall
Hi David, thanks for the question. There is no shelf with this anchor. Place a 2nd biner in the focal point. Brent and I will be doing a video on this fairly soon.
From all tests I've seen, the slippage is dependent on the diameter of the "pole" the clove hitch is tied around. Have you seen any testing on this "double biner" configuration?
This is what I'm also concerned about. No extension for a clove hitch on a single biner, I can maybe believe. With 2 biners in the clove hitch, my instinct tells me no.
@@Mountainmoxie is the follow video available yet? This video is great thanks for sharing! I've been using this anchor over the last 10 days doing multi pitch in Sardinia but have been wondering about the best way to guide mode belay with it.
A to Z Psychological Services you really shouldn't use the shelf on a anchor built like this because if you remove the screwgate the clove hitch is tied around the shelf has the potential to just disappear! Obviously not good for anyone or anything that was clipped into the shelf....!
Recommended not to. While the clove hitch shouldn't slip if one of the anchor strands is cut, loading the shelf with a cut strand could work the clove hitch free and then you're off the mountain.
@@Mountainmoxie How do people rap thru while you are on the anchor? I always leave the bottom open for groups to move through. And keeps it smooth from not having metal to metal contact.
Had several groups set their anchor on the rap rings while they were climbing up the gulley of Solar Slab, which is the common descent for all the surrounding routes. Creates quite the unneeded cluster. Do appreciate the video, just don't want people to learn to use the bottom.
@@skater20112011 That's a darn good reason not to use the rings. Being up in Canada and avoiding the most popular routes when I'm down in Red Rock's, it's not something I run into very often (people rapping through).
Mountain Moxie the reason you put your own personal gear directly into hangers and not into rap rings is to save the Integrity of the rap rings. Also never top rope through rap Rings because that causes wear. If I need to sometimes I'll clip somewhere in the chains if there's chains, but I will never put a metal Carabiner in the last two rings of an anchor that is for Rope only
Brent is an ACMG certified climbing guide. I suspect he's more qualified to advise proper anchor use than you, but I could be mistaken. Maybe you're a NASA level materials engineer or are speaking from a similar level of training or experience.
Mountain Moxie yes. Common Sense data would say since they're a fixed piece of gear used to rap and to lower, we should use them the least. And especially we don't want metal on metal where a rope is going through.
Don’t use clove hitch on the anchor main point , you bust a strand and the whole thing fails, this is not good technique and really bad practice , clove hitch and slings come undone fast even faster when it loses all its circuit energy, overhand or figure of eight is the only way to fully make it redundant to one or the other, this should be a how not to video .
You're promoting a single fail system, which doesn't meet the standards of proper climbing technique. It's always necessary to equalize and backup anchors. Under the wrong circumstances the clove hitch technique would drop the master carabiner. Please rethink the ideas you've shared.
So you're worried that the forged aluminium carabiners are going to scratch the stainless steel rap rings and cause burrs? I've heard this repeated before but I've never seen any evidence of it. I'd be interested in any studies that support this though. I work with a local non-profit that replaces old anchors and while we do see substantial rope wear on fixed anchors, I've yet to see any evidence of burrs or other damage caused by climbers clipping to the anchors.
Appreciate the thought, coming from an organization that has installed over a 100K of climbing hardware on local routes I appreciate your sense of good stewardship.
LOL, funny seeing you here J. Got your helmet in a safe place and heading back to Oregon soon as it stops pissing rain. >Two locking carabiners Hrm, why stop there? Surely three is even safer
When you have to send at 5 but dinner reservations at 6
Thanks for the knowledge. Love the bow tie.
Sweet Bow Tie! One thing to keep in mind, is that that setup technically isn’t redundant. Hypothetically if one of those anchors fails, due to the slipperiness of dyneema, the clove hitch or girth hitch will slip out completely at around 4-6kN again if one of those anchors fails. Not saying you’re gonna fail a good bolt at all, but just keep the awareness up and understand all consequences.
I agree, a failing bolt is incredibly rare, but having the cord or sling cut due to falling rock is more likely. I don't think this system will be redundant in the case of rockfall cutting the sling.
Every party needs a pooper that's why we invited you
I climb trees recreationally here in Colorado... a new student of 1 year... Found this video helpful. Thanks for sharing your techniques!
Glad it was helpful!
This is the best instructional segment, and most useful tip, I've seen in my 15+ years of climbing. Thank you, Brent and MM.
very cool
It also has the marginal advantage that, for a given length of sling or cordelette, this configuration produces a smaller v-angle than an overhand or figure 8 loop. The smaller v-angle translates to marginally less force on the anchors.
Eric, you are right, it uses less material therefore reducing angle. I make most of my anchors now with a single shoulder length sling, vice a double. Now I carry more singles which gives me a more versatile rack.
You always want 30-90 degrees of angle. Producing less angle than that isn’t better. Once you go below 30 degrees, you easily fully load one anchor with slight rope angles.
I've been using this now on several multipitch trips, for bolt and gear anchors. I love the V-clove, as I have started calling it. It's so fast and uses less material than an overhand or fig 8 knot, which can be a big benefit when your trad anchors are far away from each other. Not to mention how easy it is to tear down. Thank you!
However, I now tie it "the other way" - with the initial clip of the HMS biner facing up and out, then reach behind and across with the thumb down to twist and create the clove. This is because the way shown in the video puts the gate of the locking master point biner facing the wall, which is less desirable than having it "down and out." You can see this when he lets go of the biner at 1:12. It takes some practice to tie it the opposite from this video but I think it's just that much better.
Thanks for the awesome reply Luke! Glad it's been working out for you and thanks for the improvement. I'll have to test that.
I also came to the same observation when I was trying this method at home. Certainly something to be aware of, since screwgate facing the wall could result in the untightening of the screwgate and potential unclipping of the master biner.
Pretty slick! I have not seen this technique before. Thanks for posting it.
Small suggestion: Rather then seeing how adept you are tying this six or seven times quickly, slowing it down a couple times or even putting in a slow-motion sequence would be helpful to learn.
+johngo6283 Hi John, glad you enjoyed it. I'll try adding a slow mo sequence. Brent wasn't trying to show off. He just does it so often in his guiding business that's like tying a shoelace for him. Cheers.
New video out. Tried moving slower! :)
Just so you guys watching this know, you can slow down youtube videos easily by hitting setting and playback speed. I use this a lot when learning new techniques
Attention or close up at the top biners doing the clove hitch would be great. Thanks for the post. BTW is ther a way of making this anchor redundant?
@@airtitimes It is redundant? If one of the bolts fail or either of the slings towards the bolt fail it will still hold. Cool thing about the clove hitch is that it only needs one side to have tension for it to hold the biner. Just like the figure 8 it will stay locked even when one side is compromised.
Great meeting you a few weeks ago Brent at Skaha, and thanks again for taking the time to chat about anchors. I'll be running a Alpine Skills Course with the VOC soon and will definitely hammer in the importance of multi-directional anchors on multi-pitch!
Cheers,
I'd really like to see how it holds if one of the anchor points fails under load
Good question, check out this video! ua-cam.com/video/UMuCkC3jshA/v-deo.html
After watching the DMM videos carefully, the clove hitch variation at an equalized anchor failed, versus the one with a knot at the master point, hardly a recommendation. This appears to be a misinterpretation of some test, extrapolated out to a new, but possibly flawed, application. The most overlooked final test of anchors by DMM used two 8.5mm lead rope ties with clove hitches into separate anchors, joined at a master point (harness tie-in whatever) with a figure 8. Drop tested at Fall Factor 2, nothing failed, and only resulted in impact force of 7.6 kN, safely below the 10kN threshold for bodily injury. Once again, the lead rope is the safest tie-in, and nothing else comes close. All of these pseudo-guide's modes are not just deceptively fancy - they're almost all actually far weaker, and less safe in impact loading. Only toperoping loads may be low enough to put onto these sorts of anchor systems.
Dude... literally changed my life! Nice one!
Excellent. Concise and simply explained! Great video.
Managed to replicate your clove hitch technique without slowing down the vid! I do like to experiment with knotting techniques as those that fail also tell you something about how the knot works
Great tutorial! Killing it with the bow tie!
I loled at the bow tie..XD thanks for an awesome video..:)
Wouldn’t the figure 8 make the anchor redundant if one bolt came loose or was cut you still have one side secure. It seems that with the clove if one side came loose or cut you’d loose the whole anchor system.
Thanks for this video! I use this technique to set up sport climbing anchors now. It's super fast!
This is cool, and a good tool to have in your arsenal as long as you know the limitations and drawbacks...it is unfortunate that you never mention the drawbacks in the video which seems like the responsible thing to do. This anchor does not have dynamic equalization...and the manner in which you tighten the knot each time could lead newbies and people just not paying attention to think it does. You don't mention that it doesn't have a usable shelf or the importance of having it properly dressed to avoid significant extension or (in extreme and very uncommon scenarios) catastrophic failure.
Very fair point.
Fair point. We've updated the description. We certainly never imagined that this video was going to reach any further than our own little community of climbers
Thanks for a great video! Increases the safety factor.
Thanks Steven, we'll be posting more.
Thanks for sharing, really helpful
Glad it was helpful!
did it and works like a charm!!
Sooo much garbage advice on youtube, but sometimes one gets lucky and finds one like this... I've been slowly "converting" to dyneema, read/watched the DMM tests, but you just brought it all together in a nice, concise package. Perfect video. Subscribed.
Back three years later - still using this frequently...
Upvoted.... and omfg @ that bow tie!
How stable is the clove hitch if one anchor blows out compared to using the figure 8?
Good question, I'll have to check into that before I trust it.
@@joed9843 ua-cam.com/video/Vrgadjo9niY/v-deo.html
The clove absorbs some force because it slips if one anchor blows, but there is an increased risk here of the entire clove hitch coming undone and losing the masterpoint if the sling is cut (by rock/ice fall, etc.) too close to the knot and then the cut end slips into the knot. So just be aware that this setup is much less redundant in case of the sling being cut than with other knots which are harder to untie but slip much less under asymmetric load, especially when using dyneema slings.
Not very safe in case one end is cut as the dyneema sling slides quite easily, especially the 6-8mm are probably quite dangerous for the presented application.....check out this video ua-cam.com/video/UMuCkC3jshA/v-deo.html
Very informative and concise
...referred more than a couple people to this video already. This is right up there with discovering fire and the wheel. Okay, maybe I'm embellishing a bit... Thanks.
Thanks @sdriza Appreciate the feedback! Really hoping to produce more videos in 2018.
Does anyone know if there has been testing done using dyneema slings and clove hitches? Ive only ever used them with rope so I like evidence before I trust anything new :) Dyneema is slippery.
For the love of god......thank you! Stupid good technique and vid...Brilliant!.... well done, top man....
All those times breaking apart a figure 8 after a big whipper......nevermore....
edit: okay so after playing with this technique I found that I aways get a twist/overlap in my clove......not a perfectly dressed clove if you will....I've been working with 4mm so might not be that big of a detriment with webbing but still you reference "well dressed" cloves in your citations....the over hand turn with two lines leads to an overlap.....Am I doing something wrong?
edit again......I figured it out......before the clove, place top line over bottom line (a pre overlap if you will) - execute your technique and its perfectly dressed.....Sorry....this is killer..!!!
If I'm guiding and leading all the pitches (bolted anchors), I need places to attach 1) myself (clove), 2) the Guide mode belay device, and 3) my 2nd when he/she arrives. How do you do that? Clip 3 lockers into the master point? That sounds like a lot. With 2 biners only, if the 2nd cloves into the same biner as me, then I have trouble escaping to lead the next pitch. If 2nd cloves into the belay biner, I have trouble removing the device.
Should the 2nd just clip a new biner into the master point biner and clove to that? Or add a whole second alpine draw into my biners on the bolts? It's starting to sound complicated.
I read all the comments below and don't see this scenario addressed. Did you ever make that next video (not the trad one, the one about belaying etc.)? I want to love this but need help seeing it in practice.
Hi Luke! Thanks for the question. I really gotta chase Brent down and shoot the followup video. In the meantime I'll tell you how I manage this. I don't much like using a single locking carabiner as the masterpoint as I don't like everything else getting snarled into the ATC. So, I put two locking biners into the clover. 1 for for the belay device. The other as the masterpoint for me and the other climbers to clip into. Either by clipping their locking carabiner to the Masterpoint carabiner, or by clipping a locking carabiner to the Masterpoint and then clove hitching the rope from their harness to the their carabiner. (takes about 5x longer to explain than to do). Like a lot of climbers I used to avoid going metal to metal, but if you watch professional rope riggers or rescuers they do it all the time. There are other ways to manage this but... I'll save it for Brent to explain in the video.
Thanks! That makes sense.
@@Mountainmoxie Is it safe to use the shelf in this setup? In my backyard experimenting it seems like loading the shelf pulls the clove hitch apart which seems likely for the whole masterpoint knot to untie if one strand of the sling were cut.
Hi, there isn't really a shelf and it's not considered safe to clip above the clove hitch. Either user a single locker as your master for everything else (commonly done in rope access work) or put two locking carabiners into the clove hitch. If the anchor placement in relation to your belay dictates the need for a shelf then another type of anchor would be preferable. Cheers!
This is an excellent video.
Thanks Jon!
Below, I had a question about how this works for anchoring the climber, using the guide mode belay device, and anchoring the second when they arrive, particularly since there is no "shelf." . MountainMoxie gave me a good verbal answer below; I just found another video ua-cam.com/video/i3V52XkfIzo/v-deo.html that basically covers what he describes in words, in that it employs a single large carabiner as a master point, and then you clip other biners into it. It's not using any slings or clove hitches but once the master point carabiner is in, the linked video shows how you use it to anchor, belay, and anchor your partner.
Yep, that's it. Nice find. Like I said before. Sometimes I like having two lockers in the clove hitch to act as two master points. It's not essential in anyway, I just like keeping the belay clear of everything else.
Awesome! How well does the focal point clove hitch hold when one of the bolts fails?
Very good point, they really should have addressed that. This is the first I've seen of the clove hitch anchor and would like to know the same thing!
Was just thinking the same thing. Surely the point of having two anchors is in case one of them fails. I'm guessing that a clove hitch would just slip out.
Alex, if you reference the article on our website there is a study linked that shows how little how well dressed clove hitch slips.
It’s quite uncommon for a clover hitch to slip unless it’s improperly dressed
Big, big, big emphasis on a well-dressed clove hitch here, ideally with all the sling strands laying flat and not twisted over each other. Especially with dyneema slings, a loose clove will slip several inches before tightening itself if one anchor point fails, potentially all the way off the end of the sling if the clove is not tightened at all. This is less of a concern if a bolt/piece of pro blows than it is for rock/ice falling and cutting the sling, as a cut right near the knot could potentially cause the cut strand to roll into the clove and the entire masterpoint could fail. Putting clove hitches on each individual carabiner clipped to bolts/pro will mitigate this issue for a single cut strand but doesn't do much for a blown piece.
clove hitch shall be my new anchor knot from now on!
Thank you sir!
Awesome. Is it possible to use this technique with an 18mm double-length nylon runner, also?
Yes, its easier and less bulky to use the thinner dyneema slings though.
excellent
He is that man. Is this the guy from the Expanse?
Very cool!
Isn't the drawback of this anchor system the fact that if one of your two pieces fails, the sling will pull through the clove? Compared to a figure eight or overhand master point which has two independent legs of the anchor.
Hi Lee. A well dressed clove hitch does not slip. This has been covered in the other comments and on the article linked from the description.
Mountain Moxie cool thanks for the reply. I'll have to try this again w a tighter knot and some biners on the bolt legs.
When you're at an anchor it's quite easy to put some load on the clove hitch and dress it tight. However, it's still easy to slip the biner out to release the clove hitch, unlike untying a loaded overhand or figure eight. As before, not suggesting this is the only anchor setup a climber should use but it's a good one to have in your bag of tricks. Personally about 80% of my anchors are built with a clove hitch now.
@@Mountainmoxie Excellent video. Thanks for sharing. I will try the top rope set up.
Is this anchor redundant? If a strand of the sling gets cut then couldn`t the knot slide and make the whole system fail? Just wondering
Same question for me...
There's been a lot of exploration of this in the 6 years since we first made this video. I'd check into some of the tests done by people like 'how not to' as they demonstrate how this anchor style can fail. Like many things in climbing there is some balancing of risks. I use this anchor a lot when multipitching, needing speed and not anticipating high loads on the anchor combined with rock fall. When I'm new routing, or working a pitch where the risks of rock fall and factor two leader falls onto the anchor are more likely then I choose a different configuration. Hope this helps.
I heard you're not supposed to clip the biner directly to the chain on a bolted mount but instead you clip the biner to the mount and under the chain it's more safe ...
Can't believe everything that you hear. :)
awesome video man!
couple of questions
1st
- Can this be used as a top rope set up with 7mm cordelette as well, the same way and still be safe?
2nd
- I noticed the first time he was only using 1 carbiner at first before talking about top rope set-up....what application would you use 1 carbiner for?
Thanks in advance!
Hi Tristin, 7mm cordelette works fine. For an unmonitored top rope anchor, before you tighten the clove hitch down on the master locking carabiner.. slide a 2nd one in, and then snug it all down. Then you'll have a two carabiners in at the master.
Have you considered the fact thar the clove hitch reduces the strength of the sling by 50%? Compered to the figure eight knot which only reduces it by 30%
Hi Morten, If you refer to the supporting article on our website at mountainmoxie.com you'll see links to the tests by DMM showing the strength tests. The clove hitch is also one of the anchors that Petzl recommends.
Its a great paradox. Putting the hitch in the sling weakens the sling. But the dynamic properties of the hitch makes the entire system stronger.
In any case it makes the masterpoint easy adjustable which I really like.
The simplest would be to use a sliding X, no knot or hitch at all. Of course that leaves the system open to extension. Is that why you prefer the clove hitch?
Sliding X has high shock load risk. Plus, sliding x does not protect against sling failure. Only bolt failure. Clove hitch protects against shock load, bolt failure, and sling failure.
The sliding X is only a good solution when you are 100% sure that neither node will fail. In a new 2 stainless bolt configuration this is plausible. For all other anchors, ice and rock included, you should ensure the inability to extend. The clove hitch is the simplest solution, other solutions are overhand or figure8 focal points.
Hi. Nice video bro)
Assuming the first carabiner is used to anchor the climber using a clove hitch and the rope, would you add a carabiner at the focal point to belay off the anchor in guide mode?
You can definitely add a carabiner at the focal point. This is something I do when I am with only one partner. If I am with 2 partners I clip everything in to the focal point carabiner.
i don't climb....what's the point of adding the additional creating the anchor point with the clove hitch? is it so you spread the load between the two screws in the rock face?
Supposedly, the clove hitch will hold the carabiner in place if one of the anchor points pulls out. I'm not convinced that it is secure enough, but he seems to have the expertise.
@@joed9843, while I'm not an expert, what you said is my concern as well. Since the clove hitch can slide, it seems to me that tere's a chance everything could come completely undone.
@@TheRealJP777 Yes, a reasonable observation. Thanks for the reply.
At minute 3:42, nice to have the locking biners with their basket down for the rope and their crotch at the anchor.
Hi Steven, thanks for the comment but not sure what you mean. There are no locking biners in use at 3:42.
excellent!!👍🗻
Have you experimented using this technique on a three piece gear anchor? Just wondering how another two strands of webbing would effect the clove hitch at the focal point? Thanks so much for the video, I will be adding this to my tool box for sure. Take care.
+Kevin Hardy Hi Kevin, We've recorded a video showing the clove hitch in use with a three piece gear anchor. Some slacker (me) just has to finish editing it. I'll try and get that done in the next few days and post it up.
bump. What happened to this video?
Kevin, sorry for not responding sooner, we are working on another video showing the triple and quad cloves. This is the perfect solution for trad anchors with minimal material at the focal point.
looking forward to it :)
Hello Brent! Have there been a video posted showing this setup?
Do you use this on a three pice anchor also (if you dont need the anchor to readjusting itself)?
Hi Chris, See our new video we just uploaded. It's demoed with a multipiece anchor
sorry if this has already been addressed as there are a ton of comments. what about the shelf? when i die my figure 8 or overhand i can grab the strands above the knot to clip myself in and use the area below the knot for my belay device and all is clean.
is the only solution with this anchor system to clip everything to the area below the hitch? i love the idea, it was a huge lightbulb that went off and just want to make sure im using it correctly :).
Hi Matthew. Yep, it's been discussed a few times. Short version. There is no shelf. You have to work from what's in the clove hitch. Typically I'll put two locking carabiners in the clove, or use a single large locker as the master point that I secure to and belay from. Sometimes... this is a pain in the ass and it's nice to have a more traditional anchor with a shelf but most of the time it's not an issue.
Make more videos
We're resurrecting this project so expect to see new videos soon.
@Brent Peters (or Mountain Moxie)...great system, will try it out. But, can you use the shelf on the clove hitch or is there only one master point with this setup?? Thanks!
Hi Luca, only use the Master Point. Brent and I are planning a video demonstrating how to manage this when he returns from Denali.
Awesome Thanks! Could you also share the link to the DMM study that Brent is referring to?
Being someone a bit paranoid and new to climbing would there be any downside to using this system with two separate slings clovehitched to a single or two carabiners? I see a lot in this comments the carabiner won't slip if the knot is dressed well, and just curious wether there is any downside to reduced strength in system if you just use two slings and two seperate clovehitched into your carabiner(s) - then in case you mess up/don't dress your clovehitch well, and one fails, the other one is still in place.
Hi, I am confused over what your primary concern is. The major benefits of the clove hitch anchor are is it's speed in building, ease of breakdown and needing less materials (shorter slings). If you are adding extra slings and knots/hitches then you'd be better off with a different type of anchor. The AMGA has some excellent videos on more standard anchors like the quad or the standard figure-8. Hope that helps.
There are always downsides to *any* anchor system and it is unfortunate that this video doesn't mention them. It is only equalized in one direction of pull (ie it's not dynamically equalized), as other comments have mentioned it doesn't have a usable shelf, it's important that it is properly dressed to avoid significant extension or (in extreme and very uncommon scenarios) catastrophic failure.
With regard to your specific question, if you were using 2 slings you'd be better off not using the clovehitch. Using the clovehitch would eliminate the dynamic equalization that using 2 slings provides and it would just add an extra unnecessary knot which is generally not a good idea. There are a couple ways to set up an anchor like this if you're using 2 slings, I'd suggest looking them up.
Is it really safe to use those little PAS slings for a top rope though? I just know they say it's bad to shock load those types of slings, and you should avoid it at all costs. Will they hold If an unintended shock suddenly occurs for some reason?
Hi Casey, it's important to understand what 'shock load' means in regards to climbing anchors. When you are top-roping through any static anchor, the climbing rope is the dynamic (it stretches) component. The caution in using dyneema slings is if a climber is connected directly to the sling. Without a dynamic component in the system it's possible to break the sling in even a fairly short fall. This is primarily relevant when climbers are clipped into an anchor with a sling or tether. It's critically important to not allow any significant slack between the climber and the anchor. For this reason many people prefer to clove hitch the climbing rope into the anchor rather than use a sling or worse a daisy chain.
@@Mountainmoxie
Ok, understood! Thanks for the quick reply, much appreciated! I love this method and I love using those slings for toprope anchors. Makes everything super fast and easy to setup and to take down.
With this anchor, could I still clip in to the bottom shelf to add a guide or something like that?
Hi Grant, I just add a second locking biner into the clove hitch and hang my atc guide off of it.
Is the anchor redundant if the one side of the sling gets cut?
Yes, read the comments. It's been discussed a lot. :)
I don't suppose there is a way to get this to work for 3 point anchor systems, is there?
watch our other video: ua-cam.com/video/1_6AcbwV2ac/v-deo.html
If the dynima sling breaks, if shock load or for whatever reason, will there be complete failure? Falling to the ground?
If you break a strand on either side of the clove hitch, yes. If the clove hitch is properly dressed you can lose one side of the anchor (failed bolt or cut sling) and not have a catastrophic failure. You'd probably still shit your pants though.
@@TheCameraStoreShorts thanks man. Sorry for another question but is it safe to shock load a dynema sling? I've heard they arent but I see a lot of anchors made with them
Depends on what you mean by 'shock load'. The issue with dyneema slings is they (like most slings) are static. Or in other words, they do not absorb force by stretching. This is well explained in this video: ua-cam.com/video/Vrgadjo9niY/v-deo.html
There is better way how to do clove hitch. In your way the carabiner lock tends to aim towards the rock. But it should be the the opposite. If you try to do it on more rigid sling, you will see it cleary.
Actually it can be seen in the video 1:12. It is much better if lock aims to you.
how well is this anchor for redundancy for abrasion wear on the sling at/near the master point? (the webbing between the rock and the biner)
It's not intended as a permanent anchor. Slings should be replaced whenever there are signs of wear.
As good as an overhand of figure-8.
Not sure if I missed it, but will the clove hitch (master point) stay solid if one bolt/hanger/chain fails?
if it is dressed well
Mountain Moxie yikes. Not hard to tie a figure 8, and even if not dressed well, won’t come untied if one bolt fails.
What's with the bow tie
style :)
Could you clip into the shelf with a clove hitch masterpoint?
Audrey Pauls clipping into the shelf when you've built the anchor with a clove hitch like that has some potentially very nasty consequences as there is the possibility that when you remove the master point carabiner the shelf just vanishes!! Try it at home and you should see how this could happen. Your best bet would be to clip everything (and everyone) into the master point carabiner with more lockers like you would the master point loop of an anchor tied with a fig 8 or overhand. But definitely don't use the shelf of a clove hitch anchor like this! It's a little bit worrying that this didn't get a mention in the video...
Good answer from @just.joepotter Seems to be hard concept but we don't use a shelf. You clip into the masterpoint. When Brent is back from Denali we'll shoot a video to demonstrate.
Is there any major drawbacks to this system?
two minor drawbacks:
1) have to use additional "master" biner when multiple things are clipped to the anchor.
2) Shelf must not be used, if the shelf is used and the master biner removed, anything clipped to the shelf will fall
Super fast, super easy !!!
any advice on belaying up the second with this configuration? would you add a second biner at focal point for belay device or use the shelf instead?
Hi David, thanks for the question. There is no shelf with this anchor. Place a 2nd biner in the focal point. Brent and I will be doing a video on this fairly soon.
Mountain Moxie Ok got it! looking forward to the next one!
From all tests I've seen, the slippage is dependent on the diameter of the "pole" the clove hitch is tied around. Have you seen any testing on this "double biner" configuration?
This is what I'm also concerned about. No extension for a clove hitch on a single biner, I can maybe believe. With 2 biners in the clove hitch, my instinct tells me no.
@@Mountainmoxie is the follow video available yet? This video is great thanks for sharing! I've been using this anchor over the last 10 days doing multi pitch in Sardinia but have been wondering about the best way to guide mode belay with it.
what do you use for the shelf? a strand from each leg?
A to Z Psychological Services you really shouldn't use the shelf on a anchor built like this because if you remove the screwgate the clove hitch is tied around the shelf has the potential to just disappear! Obviously not good for anyone or anything that was clipped into the shelf....!
@@BraveThunderMC Fully agree and the reason I won't be using this method.
Can you still use the top shelf?
Recommended not to. While the clove hitch shouldn't slip if one of the anchor strands is cut, loading the shelf with a cut strand could work the clove hitch free and then you're off the mountain.
Should use the bolt hangers, not the spot for rappel.
I've commented on this fallacy before. Choose whichever clip point suits you better and is the safest in your situation.
@@Mountainmoxie How do people rap thru while you are on the anchor? I always leave the bottom open for groups to move through. And keeps it smooth from not having metal to metal contact.
Had several groups set their anchor on the rap rings while they were climbing up the gulley of Solar Slab, which is the common descent for all the surrounding routes. Creates quite the unneeded cluster. Do appreciate the video, just don't want people to learn to use the bottom.
@@skater20112011 That's a darn good reason not to use the rings. Being up in Canada and avoiding the most popular routes when I'm down in Red Rock's, it's not something I run into very often (people rapping through).
@@Mountainmoxie Sorry, I see a comment below similar to mine. Keep climbing! Love Canada.
For more info see the article that goes with the video.. mountainmoxie.com/climbing/using-clove-hitch-climbing-anchors
Really good,but next time...
Slow down....remember you're teaching... you're like a magician
Clip straight to hangers and not in rap rings please
Please explain further. Curious what your reasoning is.
Mountain Moxie the reason you put your own personal gear directly into hangers and not into rap rings is to save the Integrity of the rap rings. Also never top rope through rap Rings because that causes wear. If I need to sometimes I'll clip somewhere in the chains if there's chains, but I will never put a metal Carabiner in the last two rings of an anchor that is for Rope only
So you're saying that the aluminium carabiners are damaging the steel rap rings? Do you have some data to back this up?
Brent is an ACMG certified climbing guide. I suspect he's more qualified to advise proper anchor use than you, but I could be mistaken. Maybe you're a NASA level materials engineer or are speaking from a similar level of training or experience.
Mountain Moxie yes. Common Sense data would say since they're a fixed piece of gear used to rap and to lower, we should use them the least. And especially we don't want metal on metal where a rope is going through.
Don’t use clove hitch on the anchor main point , you bust a strand and the whole thing fails, this is not good technique and really bad practice , clove hitch and slings come undone fast even faster when it loses all its circuit energy, overhand or figure of eight is the only way to fully make it redundant to one or the other, this should be a how not to video .
SLOW DOWN !!!
Hey Chad, if it's too fast for you then just change the playback speed. Built-in feature with UA-cam. :)
Heh, heh. Masterbiner.
You're promoting a single fail system, which doesn't meet the standards of proper climbing technique. It's always necessary to equalize and backup anchors. Under the wrong circumstances the clove hitch technique would drop the master carabiner. Please rethink the ideas you've shared.
This is not redundant like a quad is.... no thanks. This is stupid. You don’t need to reinvent the wheel
Different tools for different situations. If the quad works for you then keep using it.
Always clip straight to bolts not rap rings.
Hi Mark, thanks for the comment. Curious why you advise clipping direct to the hanger?
It reduces metal on metal contact on the rings. This helps prevent any burrs that can damage ropes while rappelling or lowering off.
So you're worried that the forged aluminium carabiners are going to scratch the stainless steel rap rings and cause burrs? I've heard this repeated before but I've never seen any evidence of it. I'd be interested in any studies that support this though. I work with a local non-profit that replaces old anchors and while we do see substantial rope wear on fixed anchors, I've yet to see any evidence of burrs or other damage caused by climbers clipping to the anchors.
I've always just done it that way. Better safe than sorry i suppose.
Appreciate the thought, coming from an organization that has installed over a 100K of climbing hardware on local routes I appreciate your sense of good stewardship.
never use a clove hitch here it will not self adjust under load
This is heady shit
Cool Helmut... Ha Hipsters these days
Overly complicated.
Hmmm, doesn't get any simpler or use any less material than this.
Sliding X is and does.
LOL, funny seeing you here J. Got your helmet in a safe place and heading back to Oregon soon as it stops pissing rain.
>Two locking carabiners
Hrm, why stop there? Surely three is even safer