If it means keeping BIS a profitable enterprise, I am happy to buy a few shipping pallets of this dubious disc. Scratch that, I'd rather buy up the rest of their catalogue to achieve the same effect.
Some people will love it/want it (NOT ME!) but I agree...MORE POWER TO BIS!!! BIS has brought the world so much wonderful rep, they should live forever 👍
Nah, BPO 1942... never a more sublime, yet dramatic and heartbreaking interpretation. Knowing he was also using his concerts to provide the resistance with a way to meet safely is just a plus
You put the name of Furtwangler on a product and you are sure to sell it. Good or bad , it will sell. I had and old broadcast from him at CBC, I kept it for the commentairies of the speaker. It was in french. When I grow older, I put it in the garbage. I did not know I had to keep it to sell it 50 years later. LOL I did listen to this complete cd, and resell it ,
Copyright is...complicated, but they're probably fine. I imagine especially in Sweden. Sound recordings of this vintage get 50 years of protection in most of Europe, 70, in a few (all of Europe went to 70 for 1962 forward). So, given that 70 years just passed, they're fine in Europe. In the USA live performances don't have federal protection (sometimes called anti-bootlegging) for pre-1991 or so performances, but there may be state law rules. As a "pre-1972" sound recording, this doesn't have federal copyright in the USA. It's probably legally significant to figure out if Bavarian Radio was just broadcasting live or was also making a tape for aircheck purposes.
@@petterw5318 You’re right. It was 50 years before 2013, but the Beatles have changed that… just like Mickey Mouse in the US. Maybe BIS was overcautious…
Fascinating to hear, to be sure. Excuse me, sir (senòr-?); would it be possible to contact you by email or other electronic medium? I have just discovered your site, after reading your denunciatory comments about the putative AI-generated "Symphonic Fantasia after tenuous sketches left by Ludwig van Beethoven. I am aghast at the difference between my ignorant fascination with projects like this, and the more sober and much critical reaction against the concept (albeit i do not wish to "damn" those involved; it would be more informative to get a clearer explanation as to why this seems so objectionable to more experienced critics such as you and David Hurwitz [from whose you-tube music review site i have often visited in the past year+... Back to your regularly scheduled programming.^^ Sincerely, Colin R. Wrubleski, currently section violist in the T.P.O.[Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra], albeit on enforced hiatus. [IN March, however, the orchestra will be involved in recording sessions for an Italian scholar's completion of the unfinished Bruckner 9th symphony. As someone who deeply admires the music of J. Anton B., i am intensely looking forward to the project...
Wait a minute, Orfeo already released the original broadcast of this concert in good remastered sound, many years ago. The EMI/Warner recording is a different beast, it was a composite of the live concert and the rehearsals.
In the Warner big box of 55 cds , this 9th has been restored quite well. ( With all the applauses and the hall ambiance beetween the movements. And the announcer comments are easily findable on youtube.
Love your sound affects. This might have been the way Beethoven heard this symphony since his hearing was just about or even totally gone at this point of his life. Guess with this performance even Bluetooth ear buds wouldn't have helped old Ludwig. When I first heard of BLUETOOTH I thought it was another dog of SOUPY SALES that I never heard of. For those who don't know about Soupy Sales, he was a comedian on television who had two dogs as pets. They were WHITE FANG and BLACK TOOTH. Keep 'EM Coming, Dave.......
@@DavesClassicalGuide Just a "trivial" update "White Fang" billed as the biggest and meanest dog in the USA versus "Black Tooth" billed as the biggest and sweetest dog in the USA.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Hope you were a Soupy Sales fan as much as I was. His stupid silly comedy routines and my warped sense of humor was a match made in heaven. If Soupy didn't get a pie in the face I was always disappointed. He was a true "PIE"oneer !!! The dogs were White Fang and Black Tooth. You can check the videos out on UA-cam, there's a few, like the one where Alice Cooper gets a pie in the face.
Let me tell you a little secret. The original emi , your masters voice, Warner or whatever you wanna call is not the same you will find on this disc. If, as I assume, the source they used is a similar one as Orfeo use it’s definitely not the same performance wich originally came out. Legends says emi concocted a Frankenstein version using rehearsal takes. If you really want this performance wich is not so great BUT ois historically interesting, I recommend the orfeo release as its sound quite good for what it is. Buy something else from BIS
For some reason, this brought to mind the classic PDQ bit where they play a recently discovered piece on PDQ Bach's own piano..but its horrible out of tune, a maid with a vacuum cleaner goes through, barking dog etc...and afterwards it is considered 'revalatory'
What about the "official" EMI release? How are Warner and EMI connected? And, to your knowledge, how far removed is the EMI release from the original master tapes?
warner bought the emi catalog some years ago, so emi doesn't exist anymore, and everything that used to be emi is now warner. i haven't done side by sides with this recording, but from what i've heard most people seem to think the recent warner remastering on the 'complete furtwangler on record' box sounds better than the previous emi cd releases, and presumably better sounding than the new bis one discussed in the video (possible charm of an old radio broadcast aside). though i also think the emi/warner one has some studio edits and patches, while the bis one is just the unaltered live recording with no tinkering.
EMI engineers recorded the rehearsal for a microphone check and to use for patching flaws in the performance. The latest Warner complete box ("Complete Studio Recordings") has a different remastering than that used for the Great Recordings of the Century CD. The previous CD transfer timed in at 75:04. The new transfer is 77:20, but this includes three tracks (2 minutes, 31 seconds) devoted solely to “hall ambience” (audience noise).
i just listen the molto vivace of this 9th on bis cd....i think that take from old scrached record ( 33rpm or 78 rpm)....i remember billduph or pearl cd make the same thing...on other side mike oberth-thorn make a really good job about historical recording on naxos historical....i like the 9th by furtwangler (1951) on this label ...the sound is mutch listenable if i compare with emi-warner....i listen tahra version in the pass...is very good to....and other subject.... the name historical recording...this is after 50 years that become a ''historical recording''....? when the copyrigth is finish.....or witch date that finish to become a historical recording....? when the stereo was invented and marketed....interesting question....
There is no definition of historical recording; it's whatever anyone thinks it is as a result of a combination of age and, even more vaguely, circumstances or the perceived importance of the performers.
BIS gets my support elsewhere. I have the "Legge" EMI edit of this performance and the Orfeo "original" among others. I'm sure this will sell among the Fufu fraternity. But if we're talking historic NINTHs, in the last analysis I would gladly trade away every one of WF's NINTHs for Weingartner's 1935 Vienna recording and consider I was the winner by a long shot. But that's just me.
Well, records or tapes (vinyls, CDs, tapes u.s.w.) are only a surrogate for concert hall music; concert halls (small, big, public or private) is where music belongs. So, I don't see why to be bothered with ambient noise, especially with applauses at the beginning or end of a performance.
@@DavesClassicalGuide What is there to disagree? A recorded sound of a violin, a piano, a voice, an orchestra, a choir, ... a percussion instrument ... or whatever source of sound you might think of, is NEVER equal to the original. And even more so for an entire performance. Beethoven didn't write the Hammerklavier thinking that, one day, someone could record a performance and listen to it 100 times.
@@luciodemeio1 Oh, sorry. I regard recordings as a completely legitimate medium in and of themselves, and see no need to make the comparison to live music events because the experience is completely different. I don't believe the two are directly comparable, and there's nothing to be gained by insisting that one is "better" or "more valid" than the other. We know, to cite your example, how Beethoven expected his music to be heard. We have no idea how he might have imagined in could be heard in the future, nor do we know how he might have reacted to the technological advances we enjoy today, so it is logically fallacious to use the argument that because he only had available to him the experience of live music-making he would necessarily have disparaged recorded music. For all we know, he might have believed live music to be only a gross approximation of the true music, which he only heard in his head. My own feeling is that people in Beethoven's day tended to be far more supportive of notions of technological progress and improvement than we are today, so if I were to claim he would have been delighted with recordings I would have just as much basis for asserting that position as you do in suggestion he would not have approved of them. In other words, it's a meaningless argument either way. There are no conclusions to be draw from what we do not and cannot know. I hope this answers your question.
Bravo, Dave! Such insightful comments plus great humour! I'm still spraying my tea through my nose, laughing at your accurate description of the Lucerne 9th as "the one for normal people." Politicians can't speak honestly for ten seconds, but you talk for ten minutes and every word is true.
I don‘t know a Ninth by Furtwängler that doesn‘t suck , although there are many performances of that I deeply admire. I know the Bayreuth performance, sloppy entrances, wrong notes, bad intonation. Bayreuth is a pick-up orchestra and I don‘t know where Furtwängler picked this one up.
"The Furtwängler People," haha! Plus, the static and crackle noises are hilarious and well done, bravo!."The less you hear, the more mystical it becomes!" Hahahaha! I have never understood this whole Furtwängler thing. Have you watched him conduct? Perhaps, like those certain types who worship at the shrine of H. von K., he fulfills a need to have a "Gott-like" supreme being on the podium, one to whom the secrets of the Universe are revealed....
Your replication of what the radio sound check sounds like is uncanny!
It is. It sounded just like some vintage 1930s shortwave broadcasts I'm familiar with.
If it means keeping BIS a profitable enterprise, I am happy to buy a few shipping pallets of this dubious disc. Scratch that, I'd rather buy up the rest of their catalogue to achieve the same effect.
Some people will love it/want it (NOT ME!) but I agree...MORE POWER TO BIS!!!
BIS has brought the world so much wonderful rep, they should live forever 👍
As an unapologetic "Furtwangler Person", I love your reviews.
The nirvana of Beethovenian, Furtwanglerian transcedentalism exists within the void of nothingness, lol.
Furtwangler's final Lucerne 9th, with the Philharmonia, is still the way to go. He himself thought it was his best effort with it.
Nah, BPO 1942... never a more sublime, yet dramatic and heartbreaking interpretation. Knowing he was also using his concerts to provide the resistance with a way to meet safely is just a plus
You gave me a very hearty laugh! Thank you. I think the ad campaign could go, “Bad sound in high definition, a must-buy!”
You put the name of Furtwangler on a product and you are sure to sell it. Good or bad , it will sell. I had and old broadcast from him at CBC, I kept it for the commentairies of the speaker. It was in french. When I grow older, I put it in the garbage. I did not know I had to keep it to sell it 50 years later. LOL I did listen to this complete cd, and resell it ,
Sorry BIS, but I am holding out for a CD release of that holy grail of Furtwangler Bayreuth Ninths, the Radio Free Saskatchewan broadcast.
LOL
Copyright is...complicated, but they're probably fine. I imagine especially in Sweden.
Sound recordings of this vintage get 50 years of protection in most of Europe, 70, in a few (all of Europe went to 70 for 1962 forward). So, given that 70 years just passed, they're fine in Europe. In the USA live performances don't have federal protection (sometimes called anti-bootlegging) for pre-1991 or so performances, but there may be state law rules. As a "pre-1972" sound recording, this doesn't have federal copyright in the USA. It's probably legally significant to figure out if Bavarian Radio was just broadcasting live or was also making a tape for aircheck purposes.
This album was released in the first days of 2022 - BIS was only waiting for the recording to enter the public domain on January 1st
Everything until 1962 it's been in the public domain in Europe for many years.
@@petterw5318 You’re right. It was 50 years before 2013, but the Beatles have changed that… just like Mickey Mouse in the US.
Maybe BIS was overcautious…
Fascinating to hear, to be sure. Excuse me, sir (senòr-?); would it be possible to contact you by email or other electronic medium? I have just discovered your site, after reading your denunciatory comments about the putative AI-generated "Symphonic Fantasia after tenuous sketches left by Ludwig van Beethoven. I am aghast at the difference between my ignorant fascination with projects like this, and the more sober and much critical reaction against the concept (albeit i do not wish to "damn" those involved; it would be more informative to get a clearer explanation as to why this seems so objectionable to more experienced critics such as you and David Hurwitz [from whose you-tube music review site i have often visited in the past year+... Back to your regularly scheduled programming.^^
Sincerely, Colin R. Wrubleski, currently section violist in the T.P.O.[Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra], albeit on enforced hiatus. [IN March, however, the orchestra will be involved in recording sessions for an Italian scholar's completion of the unfinished Bruckner 9th symphony. As someone who deeply admires the music of J. Anton B., i am intensely looking forward to the project...
Wait a minute, Orfeo already released the original broadcast of this concert in good remastered sound, many years ago. The EMI/Warner recording is a different beast, it was a composite of the live concert and the rehearsals.
As if it matters.
@@DavesClassicalGuide For the Furtwangler maniacs, they want all reedition.
Sounds like something I’d be happy to purchase! With metaphysical money.
I levitate already, just by watching this video! :-))))
In the Warner big box of 55 cds , this 9th has been restored quite well. ( With all the applauses and the hall ambiance beetween the movements. And the announcer comments are easily findable on youtube.
Oh yes, mustn't leave out the announcer comments! Beethoven needs them.
Love your sound affects. This might have been the way Beethoven heard this symphony since his hearing was just about or even totally gone at this point of his life. Guess with this performance even Bluetooth ear buds wouldn't have helped old Ludwig. When I first heard of BLUETOOTH I thought it was another dog of SOUPY SALES that I never heard of. For those who don't know about Soupy Sales, he was a comedian on television who had two dogs as pets. They were WHITE FANG and BLACK TOOTH. Keep 'EM Coming, Dave.......
Black Fang, I believe.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Just a "trivial" update "White Fang" billed as the biggest and meanest dog in the USA versus "Black Tooth" billed as the biggest and sweetest dog in the USA.
@@nedbates OK then. I remember them as White Fang and Black Fang. Thanks for the correction.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Hope you were a Soupy Sales fan as much as I was. His stupid silly comedy routines and my warped sense of humor was a match made in heaven. If Soupy didn't get a pie in the face I was always disappointed. He was a true "PIE"oneer !!! The dogs were White Fang and Black Tooth. You can check the videos out on UA-cam, there's a few, like the one where Alice Cooper gets a pie in the face.
That crackle turns into pure Donald Duck...
Let me tell you a little secret. The original emi , your masters voice, Warner or whatever you wanna call is not the same you will find on this disc. If, as I assume, the source they used is a similar one as Orfeo use it’s definitely not the same performance wich originally came out. Legends says emi concocted a Frankenstein version using rehearsal takes.
If you really want this performance wich is not so great BUT ois historically interesting, I recommend the orfeo release as its sound quite good for what it is.
Buy something else from BIS
I think we all know that the Warner used some rehearsal snippets, as if it mattered.
Of course it matters! As insane Furtwanglarians make about 37% of your audience you certainly don’t want to mess with them!
@@NecronomThe4th Oh, but I do.
Dave, you are special. I laugh every time I watch your critic. And I agree with all. “The ninth”! Thank you!
4'33" by John Cage was written in the following year...
I had the pressing of the 1952. Now I have the cd, and the radio annoucement from youtube. It is ok for me.
So the label just put this CD on UA-cam. Not sure why they even bothered putting out the CD in the first place.
For some reason, this brought to mind the classic PDQ bit where they play a recently discovered piece on PDQ Bach's own piano..but its horrible out of tune, a maid with a vacuum cleaner goes through, barking dog etc...and afterwards it is considered 'revalatory'
Do you know what was is last recording, and where he conducted his last concert
Your static impersonation suggests you could do a good Donald Duck.
I love David trying to recreate the Crackling sound of the 1951 recording. HILARIOUS
What about the "official" EMI release? How are Warner and EMI connected? And, to your knowledge, how far removed is the EMI release from the original master tapes?
warner bought the emi catalog some years ago, so emi doesn't exist anymore, and everything that used to be emi is now warner. i haven't done side by sides with this recording, but from what i've heard most people seem to think the recent warner remastering on the 'complete furtwangler on record' box sounds better than the previous emi cd releases, and presumably better sounding than the new bis one discussed in the video (possible charm of an old radio broadcast aside). though i also think the emi/warner one has some studio edits and patches, while the bis one is just the unaltered live recording with no tinkering.
EMI engineers recorded the rehearsal for a microphone check and to use for patching flaws in the performance. The latest Warner complete box ("Complete Studio Recordings") has a different remastering than that used for the Great Recordings of the Century CD. The previous CD transfer timed in at 75:04. The new transfer is 77:20, but this includes three tracks (2 minutes, 31 seconds) devoted solely to “hall ambience” (audience noise).
Yes, ambient transcendentalism.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I like ambient transcendentalism. Give me coughs, give me paper crackling, give me jangling jewelry, give me "LIVE"! YES!!
i just listen the molto vivace of this 9th on bis cd....i think that take from old scrached record ( 33rpm or 78 rpm)....i remember billduph or pearl cd make the same thing...on other side mike oberth-thorn make a really good job about historical recording on naxos historical....i like the 9th by furtwangler (1951) on this label ...the sound is mutch listenable if i compare with emi-warner....i listen tahra version in the pass...is very good to....and other subject.... the name historical recording...this is after 50 years that become a ''historical recording''....? when the copyrigth is finish.....or witch date that finish to become a historical recording....? when the stereo was invented and marketed....interesting question....
There is no definition of historical recording; it's whatever anyone thinks it is as a result of a combination of age and, even more vaguely, circumstances or the perceived importance of the performers.
I wish they will release the Knappertsbusch Bayreuth rec soon..
BIS gets my support elsewhere. I have the "Legge" EMI edit of this performance and the Orfeo "original" among others. I'm sure this will sell among the Fufu fraternity. But if we're talking historic NINTHs, in the last analysis I would gladly trade away every one of WF's NINTHs for Weingartner's 1935 Vienna recording and consider I was the winner by a long shot. But that's just me.
Well, records or tapes (vinyls, CDs, tapes u.s.w.) are only a surrogate for concert hall music; concert halls (small, big, public or private) is where music belongs. So, I don't see why to be bothered with ambient noise, especially with applauses at the beginning or end of a performance.
I disagree.
@@DavesClassicalGuide What is there to disagree? A recorded sound of a violin, a piano, a voice, an orchestra, a choir, ... a percussion instrument ... or whatever source of sound you might think of, is NEVER equal to the original. And even more so for an entire performance. Beethoven didn't write the Hammerklavier thinking that, one day, someone could record a performance and listen to it 100 times.
@@luciodemeio1 So? As I said I disagree.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Sure. I only wanted to understand why. Doesn't matter.
@@luciodemeio1 Oh, sorry. I regard recordings as a completely legitimate medium in and of themselves, and see no need to make the comparison to live music events because the experience is completely different. I don't believe the two are directly comparable, and there's nothing to be gained by insisting that one is "better" or "more valid" than the other. We know, to cite your example, how Beethoven expected his music to be heard. We have no idea how he might have imagined in could be heard in the future, nor do we know how he might have reacted to the technological advances we enjoy today, so it is logically fallacious to use the argument that because he only had available to him the experience of live music-making he would necessarily have disparaged recorded music. For all we know, he might have believed live music to be only a gross approximation of the true music, which he only heard in his head. My own feeling is that people in Beethoven's day tended to be far more supportive of notions of technological progress and improvement than we are today, so if I were to claim he would have been delighted with recordings I would have just as much basis for asserting that position as you do in suggestion he would not have approved of them. In other words, it's a meaningless argument either way. There are no conclusions to be draw from what we do not and cannot know. I hope this answers your question.
So funny. God bless David and his humourous critiques. I cant listen to Furtwangler the same way now.
Completely agree when I saw this release I scoffed but the great David summed up my thoughts to a perfect T
I would sooner prefer to recreate the old timey experience of going to an old fashioned dentist and having my wisdom teeth extracted without novocaine
The minute I saw that release, I knew you'll jump on it! I think it is BIS Valentine to you.
Bravo, Dave! Such insightful comments plus great humour! I'm still spraying my tea through my nose, laughing at your accurate description of the Lucerne 9th as "the one for normal people."
Politicians can't speak honestly for ten seconds, but you talk for ten minutes and every word is true.
Remove the apostrophe from "It's" -- in this case -- and you're good to go. I'm an old unrepentant magazine editor. But then again, so are you.
Damn. I'm so embarrassed. Thanks.
I don‘t know a Ninth by Furtwängler that doesn‘t suck , although there are many performances of that I deeply admire. I know the Bayreuth performance, sloppy entrances, wrong notes, bad intonation. Bayreuth is a pick-up orchestra and I don‘t know where Furtwängler picked this one up.
"The Furtwängler People," haha! Plus, the static and crackle noises are hilarious and well done, bravo!."The less you hear, the more mystical it becomes!" Hahahaha! I have never understood this whole Furtwängler thing. Have you watched him conduct? Perhaps, like those certain types who worship at the shrine of H. von K., he fulfills a need to have a "Gott-like" supreme being on the podium, one to whom the secrets of the Universe are revealed....
Atleast Karajan knew how to beat time and got the orchestra to play together and relatively in tune LOL.
@@vjekop932 Haha, you are quite correct! But in almost all cases, I'd rather here a work conducted by many other conductors than he.