In Person Zen is Important
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- Опубліковано 3 чер 2024
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I agree. Just found a local zen group to meet in person and got invited to an online zen meeting 😆.
I prefer theravada but the temple is a bit far.
I'm hoping to do a little of both or commit once I decide if Soto is something I like or I prefer what I already know.
Though i agree that intellectually you can pretty much figure out everything online and even get meditation guidance/discussions via video conferencing.
I feel like it sucks to do things that way because as a human I crave socialization and up close personal interactions with people.
I will say, as an autistic person, video learning is a blessing. So it depends. But I've also experienced what you're describing.
I prefer to think in terms of belonging to or participating in a sangha rather than opposing practicing in isolation to 'having a teacher'. Because not all sanghas/centers etc are focused around one single teacher and there is a lot of middle ground between practicing in isolation and having a strong individual or personal relationship with a teacher which doesn't always happen and I don't think is always necessary.
Agreed. I wouldn't find a guru-student relationship effective, nor a solo "study" kind of practice, but a more institutional kind of arrangement; a temple; proved very useful to me.
Wow Brad, what a great talk! Fascinating, funny and with a lot to think about. I love your straightforwardness and self-deprecating humor! The thing about learning from fellow students is so true for example in martial arts. I studied Aikido for years, and there’s something you can pick up from the teacher when they (in my case rarely) actually do the technique with you personally. But 99% of the time I was learning from either watching them apply it on someone else or feeling my own mistakes with a partner and vice versa. That is so important, and you learn from each type of fellow student, more advanced or more of a beginner, nice or arrogant! In terms of your videos, I have never viewed them as teisho. I watch them for inspiration to sit!
I listen to Suzuki Roshi‘s lectures because they are mostly really teisho. The reason is that he’s giving an actual teisho in front of group of people, often during a sesshin, and he’s not thinking at all about the recording. So it really is teisho. I think if you were talking in front of a group, even a small group, it might be very different. But you do a great job of making videos, with no live audience. Many people on YT fail at that!
I agree completely about distance-learning. As a math prof, I know it has been much more satisfying for both students and teacher once we returned to in-person learning. At first I loved being able to sit in my underwear when it was hot, or get a coffee, and not having to get in my car and drive to work, but now I realize that in-person works much much better, for me as well as them. I leave the class excited and inspired...and sometimes I do feel that they do too.
I know exactly what you mean about the ephemeral quality that is passed from one to the other. And what it means to have broken through a barrier. That there’s no substitute for that. I have had that experience with very special zen and martial arts teachers but this is even true in other realms like math, or music… can you imagine being around John Lennon in person while he's writing songs? Zen is clearly much more so, in its very special way. Suzuki Roshi today (69-04-08) was expressing exactly this sort of thing, w/o saying it. A student asked "why do we have small mind?" and he said "actually you know there is no small mind!" "Then why do we talk about it?"
"Actually that is a mistake, you know!"" "Then why do we make that mistake?" "Actually there is no mistake!" and he said this all in such a spontaneous way that each time everyone burst out laughing. He passed the feeling on, and it still comes thru on the tape, all these years later.
I follow Anton and Godier too, Dyson for the win!
Anton and Godier are great!
The quandary you present Brad is that you assert we need a teacher, which as an educator I understand, but you don’t want be one yourself and, to be blunt, you pop-poo on 85% of the centers and teachers out there … so where is one supposed to go? 😜 Are we supposed to uproot our lives when we find one of the few teachers we resonate with? After all, online isn’t the same.
My teacher never told me anything (that made any sense) - he just pointed me in the right direction and gave me faith in letting go. Maybe just hearing the teachings and knowing that enlightenment exists is enough for those that must awaken?
I think this is really one of the big strengths of Vajrayana over Zen in this regard. It's actually very easy to teach many Vajrayana practices online, because many of our practices are Sadhana practices: self-contained practice texts. And so it's pretty easy to teach someone over zoom how to visualize a visualization, and chant a mantra. And a lot of our practices are kind of designed so that you learn from the experience of doing the practice over and over again. You can't really make a "mistake" with many of the practices because they are kind of just self-explanatory, and the aspects that aren't self-explanatory are often just-as easily explained over zoom as they are in person. We don't rely on the "rock tumbler" to train ourselves because we do Tantra. What you miss online, is the opportunity to bond with a teacher in person. But, you still do get the practice, because again, many of our practices are sort of "learn by doing". You get a basic overview from a teacher, and get a practice transmission, and then you pretty much go at it. And just by repeating the practice, over and over again, the effects are felt and understood inwardly. Zen, on the other hand, is so abstract in a lot of ways, that it really is easy for people to kind of "get it wrong" I've seen. I was a Zen practitioner for many years, and the lack of structure within the practice itself, makes it very easy for people to kind of get lost, and really need a constant interaction to help keep straight. Btw also in Vajrayana we do indeed keep that "shaktipot" idea. That's why we have Luung transmissions and Empowerments in order to do practices. One needs to get the transmission for a practice from the teacher, before doing it. But that can actually be done online through Zoom. (Although it's better in person)
The monk at the dojo I went to for a while had that resonance effect on us. It was like som kind of time space warp wit a feeling of calm and peace. He never talked about it
I needed that reminder of how much time and effort has gone into my teachers practice and how far from that I am!
The country I live in has no options for zen. And barely Buddhism at all. There is some travada but hours away from me. So, what to do?
I feel like your options are slim
Just find a tree, meditate under it until you get enlightenment. Not so complicated
plenty of remote sanghas and teachers, Brad is just 1 dude with some opinions
@@11SamP “that’s just, Iike, your opinion, man.” - The Dude
Same here. I live on the eastern side of Canada. The nearest zendo is 3 hours away.
Dharma Recovery is Mostly Online these days. I love it. I meet and meditate with them 3 times a week but you can join Sanghas everyday of the week. It is now my sole way of Meditating with a group and its wonderful. We all help each other stay sober and follow the 8 fold Path. Love your Videos. Thanks Brad.
Direct transmission of mind...
My favorite thing about American Zen students was this guy that said, "I spent three years at Tassajara." He basically a zensplainer - a more annoying version of the mansplainer. Every time I saw him, he said things should be done this way or taught this way because this is what we did at Tassajara. I asked him, "When did you first start practicing Zen?" His answer was that he went to a retreat at Tassajara for something and decided to stay. More power to him for 3 years at Tassajara - kudos even. However, he didn't know sh#t from shinola (The Jerk, Steve Martin - funny movie).
I have a good Zen teacher. There are times that I disagree with them. If I do, I better be able to back up my disagreement. Viva Ziggy!
I still feel like a beginner after 22 years of Zen practice and ten years of seminary.
Hahahaha, awesome! Got me thinking 'anyone for tennis
Wouldn't that be nice..😊
Anyhow, could you imagine transmission via zoom...
Entertaining... food for thought...
So how do you go about finding a Zen teacher?
I’ve never found one in the uk. All I have is books and UA-cam vids. 🙏
I agree, meeting up in person to practice is really important. And this is coming from a guy (me) who’s teacher and sangha meet primarily online once a week, with no physical zendo. The sangha meets up in person for sesshin a few times a year. Online has its good and bad points as has been talked about. Here in the uk, zen teachers are hard to come by. It does seem to be getting better slowly I think. I tend to go to retreats out of my sangha, like yours Brad in Hebden. My teacher is cool with that. Encouraging it. I don’t see why it has to be online vs in person. Just find a good balance, be honest, know the limitations. In person has it trouble too, with all the scandals and teacher worship. Take care, Glen.
I find it amazing that Brad just straight out said the thing about the gulf of understanding between the kindergarden teacher and the drooling infants. I suppose its like an on/off switch thingy : the light doesn't gradually get more and more off (or on).
This is weird. Today I found a zazen circle (don't know if it can be called a circle, two dudes sitting every Thursday) in my town. Gonna go sit with them tomorrow.
I realize that most Buddhists have no interest in what the founder of Buddhism said about anything...but I recall his last words before dying.
He remarked that he could give his disciples nothing but words, and that when he is dead they will still have that wellspring of words to draw from for all eternity.
Yes...its several thousand pages of Pali.
Does anyone here live on the eastern side of Canada? Also Brad, will you ever come to Canada?
I also watch those channels right before bed😂
My teacher moved, so we have Dokusan via phone every few months. This seems to work for me. Our local Zen center got to political and 'Woke' for me. Although I do miss sitting with a group.
I read quite a bit of Buddhists text and sutras to further my understanding. And I sit 50 mins. every morning.
12:39 isn't it from teacher to student ?
Don't be too quick to say you can't get Enlightened from reading books!
It IS possible.
That has been my experience.
Being with a teacher in person can of course be helpful, but it isn't the only way.
The Sixth Patriarch of Zen was Enlightened by only hearing the Diamond Sutra being recited!
Between my 45th and 55th years of life (about 10 years) I was depressed. I was still working, was relatively well adjusted at work and home, but I was coming home from work every day and throwing myself in bed, neglecting my physical health. I was just going through the motions, on auto pilot. I certainly was not happy. I began to lock myself up in my bathroom (my house is a small 3/2, so my wife has her own) and I silently/ unconsciously vowed I would read my Zen books until I became enlightened (whatever that meant). BTW, I have no formal training in Zen, no teacher, only a bit well read and flirted/ dabbled in meditation intermittently throughout my life. I stumbled upon Elaine Pagel's books 'The Gnostic Gospels' and 'Beyond Belief.' I had read the Gospel of Thomas before, but this time it absolutely blew my mind! My creative juices began to flow, I began to take down notes and these became the basis of my book, 'The Zen of Jesus Christ', which is my interpretation of the Gospel of Thomas through the lens of Zen Buddhism. In the year 2016, I successfully published it, first on Smashwords as an Ebook (where it is now available in over 12 languages) and published it as a Kindle paperback on Amazon in 2018. I don't know how or what happened, but the work of editing/ re-writing/ cleaning up the manuscript for publishing pulled me out of my depression and gave me a completely new perspective on life. I was never a Christian before, but now I don't mind calling myself a 'Zen Christian Buddhist!' Namu Dai Bosa, Namu Dai Bosatsu! Carlos O. Santacruz 🙏
What if I am watching some vedeo-teach-in and communicate online with a bunch of people who also watched them and some others? Does it resemble a bag of potatoes?
PayPal link doesn't work for me.
My frustration is that I live in the middle of nowhere and there are no teachers or sanghas.
Don't stress over it. Just work with what you have there, in the middle of nowhere.
Brad, a thought just came to mind... I'm an online ESL instructor and could use some help being a better teacher, I keep losing my students and I dont know why. Maybe you (since you taught English in Japan) or your wife, whom you mentioned teaches teachers to teach, can help me out here?
I was an ESL instructor in China (left my job last week to move back to the US). Been doing it for 20 years. Reasons you might be losing students:
1) A student is simply not going to be as motivated online as he would be in person
2) Parents (who let's face it, are the ones responsible for their children's schedules) are typically not very good at keeping time commitments. Something will come up an hour before your lesson and the parents will do that. Asians generally tend to be reactive rather than proactive in terms of their schedules.
3) You are a "boring" teacher (this is the usual reason why people quit being ESL teachers and the reason I took a university job). You really do have to be energetic ALL THE TIME a lot of people aren't willing to do that for too long
4) You don't "look like" a good teacher (i.e. you aren't an attractive woman or man, you aren't white, or whatever other stereotype your customers have).
As far as advice on being a better teacher? Be clean, be energetic, use lots of pictures, and structure your lessons well.
I know you said Doug's Dharma, but i heard Duck Dharma, and i would watch Three Wise Guys in Duck Dharma.
The irony of all this - the Buddha didn’t go to a Sangha. He became enlightened on his own, under the bodhi tree. The super-star guys who founded Zen - somebody came up with this, on his own. And then it spreads around, and people form communities, perhaps around the ‘charismatic’ leader. And then drink the kool-aid. The great thing about just doing stuff on your own is that the only kool-aid you drink is the one prepare yourself. And nobody to ask you for money.
No he definitely had teachers and other ascetics he associated with. He just wasn't satisfied with them because they didn't solve his existential crisis.
@@skrrskrr99 of course he had ‘teachers’, but they didn’t teach him out to be ENLIGHTENED, ie., how to become the Buddha (the awake one). If somebody else had taught Siddhartha how to become Buddha, then THAT guy (the teacher) would be the one with statues of him all over the world, and the guy whose teachings get retold and written down. I’m sure Siddhartha had lots of teachers, from the first grade and second grade and private tutors and ascetics he hung out with. And yet NONE of them taught him how to become enlightened. It just happened to him while meditating.
The Buddha studied with several teachers. He was enlightened by them but they provided at minimum a negative example and at best a grounding in spirituality from which to build.
Bodhidharma was a monk before coming to China, so he had teachers as well, even if he had to go solo to get it.
Pratyekabuddhas (solitary Buddhas) are recognized but the consensus is that it's easier for most folks with a teacher and a sangha - hence the Three Jewels.
@@kevindole1284 there are two issues. Did the Buddha ever have any teachers? Of course he did, who would deny that? The second issue is the one i care about - did any of these teachers teach him how to become enlightened ? Nope. If such a teacher did, he’d be the Enlightened One with the magical teaching that we’d all want to follow to become enlightened. But that’s not how it worked. the Buddha got enlightened by meditating under a tree. Period. Whatever his teachers taught him, they didn’t teach him that.
@@RC-qf3mp the teachers of this age couldn't take him there, sure, but if you go back to the tipitakka, the Buddha talks about studying with other Buddhas in previous lives.
All hail the snoozy flufmiester.😁
I hear ya, man. For a variety of reasons, you and Shozan seem to be the best I get. I understand and have attempted the steps involved to find an in-person group, but can’t seem to make it happen, much less find a teacher. I could try harder. An important teaching for me here, listening to this kind of guidance, is to not get distressed or discouraged. Err… not “don’t,” rather “watch.” See how those states are impermanent, unsatisfactory, not self…ohhhhh… and you say you’re not my teacher or these videos aren’t teaching? I respectfully disagree 😊
Which would you rather have...?
1. A mediocre living teacher.
2. A book written by the greatest teacher who ever lived.
Easy call - the teacher.
When I don’t understand something, I have a conversation with the teacher. The book just lies there, silent.
Or, another angle - let’s see… OK, Brad plays the guitar… So, say 300 students begin studying guitar this year.
100 with the best book, 100 with video lessons, 100 with their mediocre local teacher, in person.
A year later, how many from each group are still playing and how far has their skill progressed?
@@cibelon "When I don’t understand something, I have a conversation with the teacher. "
That only leaves you with mediocre understanding.
Gurdjieff said you can't be awakened by your self only in a group because only someone from the outside can see your blindspots.
Gurdjieff needed to attract students, too...
Cover Discipline by King Crimson