All About Cyberpunk - Ep. 102 of Intentionally Blank
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Dan and Brandon discuss cyberpunk. They begin with the history of the genre and debate what properties fall into the category. From Blade Runner to The Matrix, they find common threads like virtual reality and artificial intelligence.
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"I am to philosophy what a philosophy degree is to your resume" is an amazing line
Sometimes I remember that he's pretty good at this writing thing sometimes. XD
As someone with a philosophy degree, I'm not sure now to feel about this line.
It really cracked me up since I do, in fact, have a philosophy degree on my resumé -- and nothing else.
Clearly we need Gatepunk: sci-fantasy centered around political scandals. GRRM can be the grandfather of the genre.
I'm not sure the "punk" part applies to GRRMs work.
@@TheLizardKing752 that's the point, punk and gate get thrown around even though they make no sense. They've taken on new meaning.
@@IrishWriter definitely true
The thing about P.K. Dick being the first cyberpunk author is that his cyberpunk book is not Do Androids... , but rather Ubik. It more or less satisfice all genre criteria, and handles deeply cyberpunk-ian themes.
Brandon proposes great question, Dan proceeds to avoid question while discussing Dairy Girls.
happens every week lol
I actually think it would have been a better question if Dan would have gotten trick even if he ruined the thing. 😈
LOL at the idea of Dairy Girls instead of Derry Girls
Dairy girls, wtf lol? You mean Derry?
I can only speculate Dairy Girls is a food heist involving milk, cream, butter, etc. in an Irish town during the Troubles?
So glad Brandon mentioned Frostpunk. That game is incredible, and everyone should play it.
I think Altered Carbon (book 1), Mirror's Edge and Black Mirror (some episodes) are worth talking about when talking about Cyberpunk. Personally I also really enjoyed Snow Crash. And I really hope Brandon ends up writing that Mistborn Cyberpunk era someday.
I was waiting for them to mention Altered Carbon! I haven't read the books yet, but I really enjoyed the TV series, I'm on yet another rewatch of it.
You guys are the ONLY people I have ever heard talk about Uglies
As a huge fan of the cyber punk genre this was a deeply enjoyable episode. Thank you both so much.
The topic of "punkifying" fantasy/sci-fi came up in a discord call I had with a friend. We were talking about the Kiseki/Trails RPG series because I've been playing them lately and I was trying to describe the sort of anachronism stew that the setting has, mixing tech levels from the industrial revolution, the 40's, the mid-to-late 90's, and even beyond, and I was floundering for a way of describing it, and he suggested that it was "some kinda punk"
I kinda wish there were a term for it beyond "some kinda punk" tbh, because it's not REALLY a punk-ish series, referring to the musical style. It's just a fantasy series.
The best part of this. These two gentlemen and scholars, do this to sign stuff. Then they forget to sign stuff. Not to mention the digression of their digression has fallen into disrepair somewhere down the line, so they segway to what they really had planed to talk about, without addressing the original point. That's about right. Chef's kiss.
Would you rather? Take a job, when you have no cash but are a bad fit, or starve, but know odds are someone better than you will do the work? If you choose starve, that better be an important thing you didn't do. If you choose the work, it is because the possible paycheck is worth it. The answer is you would take the gig & hope. I kinda describes Brandon's start.
The first time cyberpunk was used was as the title of Bruce Bethke's short story "cyberpunk" .. Not to be confused with Bruce Sterling, a cyberpunk author that is the close friend of the most famous cyberpunk author/the man that is considered by most the father of cyberpunk, William Gibson who invented the word "cyberspace" and used words like "the matrix" in his books, words that he had learned overhearing IT nerds talk.
Cyberpunk is largely collection of sci fi concepts wrapped around a punk aesthetic and attitude. It's why most of the time people talk about early cyberpunk it's not all cyberpunk it just has some cyberpunk themes or technologies. Cyberpunk without the aesthetic and attitude isn't cyberpunk
Hooker with a heart of gold--classic trope of Cyberpunk. Both Blade Runners have the hard-boiled cop analog and some elements of the hooker thing going. The game has that too. I'd recommend playing it, as it does have a number of real-future-looking-feels-bad-that-this-is-true-man moments. Especially the main and Delamain stories (important to read all the emails on the computers to get more understanding). The Cyberpsychosis is also poignant and Johnny's arguments, but they are a little abstruse. Also, Deus Ex is entirely a form of super cop, and excellent games that, especially with Mankind Divided, hit what the future may look like.
Bruce Bethke... Man, Dan, that is the first time someone has had me look something up in awhile! Kudos! 😆
No mention of Pat Cadigan 😮 !!! Such a powerful influence for me! 17:35
1984 was the best cyberpunk story ever told. Rebellion agianst insturmountable technological oppression. Delicious.
Hi guys.
I don't know if you read the comments but, in case you happen to do so, here's a bit:
Cyberpunk, by people that dog through its history and the maby examples of it in several types of media, is defined as "high tech / low life"
All the things you are noting are common tropes acompanying or surounding that core identity.
And it would seem that, when the trend started, all the "punks" were that same thing, but varied in the nature of the "tech" that went with the low life part.
Steam punk was almost dickensian england + hidraulic automatons. Uglies is "biopunk" or "solarpunk"... And so on.
Just my two cents.
Thanks for your hard work.
The Japanese connection to cyberpunk predates the birth of their own cyberpunk tradition, which is interesting. I don't know if it was a response to the place of their culture as somewhat villainized in Western fiction or not. I do know that the basic idea of the Asian aesthetic was birthed out of the East's rapid modernization where old and new mixed so much that the new seemed unfamiliar, being a perfect backdrop for a society which was increasingly electricized and computerized. It definitely was of an era, but I think there's plenty of room for modern day cyberpunk as well.
A lot of it had to do with Blade Runner which was super-popular in Japan, probably in part because it had a lot of Japanese characters in the backgrounds and stuff, lol. Blade Runner was '82 and Akira came out in '88.
@@takanara7 The Akira manga started in 82, a few months after Blade Runner premiered in Japan. Otomo's not cited it as an influence as far as I'm aware.
Since it was mentioned multiple times, did they ever do an episode about Gravity Falls? that show deserves an episode.
Regarding the metaverse stuff - anyone who has ever done a call on Skype or Zoom should know that idea was never going to sell. Joining a call on a modern meeting app is usually one click - and even that is too complex. Every meeting takes 5-10 to get started due to mic issues, wrong clicks on the email, etc. And somehow, we are going to evolve this into a giant wearable helmet that introduces way more complications? "hey, I think I flew to the wrong building. Which floor is the room in again? I tried to teleport but my game crashed" etc, lol. The metaverse might work one day as a purely AR, hands-free/gadget-free/helmet-free experience but there's no way in heck anyone is going to spend 8 hours with a VR helmet on, lol.
34:05 I can agree that Gibson's books get better as they go along, but Count Zero will forever be my favorite because of the opening chapter. Turner's backstory is probably the highlight of the series for me.
Is count zero the second book? I loved neuromancer but couldn't get past the change of main character afterward
It’s really worth it - coming from someone who’s just read both back to back.
Much as I love Case from the first book the ensemble cast in Count Zero is probably better as a whole imo. Plus (maybe it’s just me) the prose flows a little better.
Ultimately I just wanted more Gibson and just kept going through the series. I’d really recommend you push on too because the payoff is exceptional!
Terms better than "Punk"
My daughter and Wife use the term "Core" when things in a very similar way that "punk" is used.
So my daughter designs a room in a game to look like a cottage. She calls it "Cottage Core"
My wife designs our porch to be like a jungle she called it "Jungle core"
And they can google these terms and find others who are using the same exact terms.
And as well I already see games and small youtube shows being refered to with the "Core" term.
A scary game was "Zombie core" and a kitty based youtube show was "Kitty core"
I think this fits well into what "Punk" is being used for better.
So Cyber core could have the same look as "Cyberpunk" the game. But if it has a different lore and story then "Punk would not be used.
So the game Cyberpunk to me is Cyber-Core with some punk aspects in the world.
Ok now I need Brandon and Dave to talk about the Cyberpunk anime, Cowboy Beebop, and Blade Runner
Dude, I forgot about Uglies. Excellent books
Please Mr.Sanderson, write a cyberpunk book. PLEASE
It's not possible for Neuromancer to have inspired Blade Runner - Blade Runner came out 2 years before Neuromancer was published.
It is possible earlier stories, like Johnny Mnemonic might have been inspiration though.
20:03 Shadow Children by Haddix for me 👌🏼
You are forgetting the other side of the VR angle. For VR to truly go off, reality has to be so bad that its worth the escape, like living in pods and such. VR would also have to be very cheap.
dystopian measures for dystopian conditions.
Rollerball, a movie from 1975, based on a story published in 1973, produced/directed by the great Normal Jewison, was unbelievably cyberpunk before there was a genre.
The CS geek version of this is that there are several volumes remaining of The Art of Computer Science (and the author, at 85, is still making good progress on it) but "don't worry, if Knuth doesn't finish it, they'll get Sanderson to"
The first three minutes of this is just Brandon and Dan saying, "hmmm, yes" 😂
DAN I NEED YOUR CYBERPUNK. HOW CAN FANS MAKE IT HAPPEN?
would've loved for the original to be brought up!
Love this episode!
I’d say the craze for YA lately been leaning more towards LitRPG, like as soon as I search books in scifi or fantasy is YA centric LitRPG
@BrandSanderson I haven't heard it before so I'm going to coin a rare sub genre of scifi.. right here, right now. "Idiocracy" is Dystopian "Idiot Punk."
I would have loved their opinion on Shadowrun, the bastard child of cyberpunk and fantasy, as I personaly love the concept since I played the Shadowrun videogames.
Shadowrun is a great world, but I'd rather stab myself with a rusty needle than play the actual TTRPG.
There's a reason there are so many cyberpunk conversions of 5e or whatever. Because, believe it or not, a slap chop of D&D systems that were never meant for a high tech world is actually easier to run with than just playing Shadowrun.
@@TheLordofMetroids Fair, and that's why my group switched from Shadowrun 5e to Shadowrun Anarchy, everything suddenly takes half the time it did before :D
I think the dominant corporations and "f the system" is core to what cyberpunk is. I have never heard anyone call the matrix cyberpunk before. That is very very strange to me.
Blade Runner came out two years before Neuromancer, Dan. (1982 vs 1984.) So your inspiration attribution is flipped.
I've noticed that Brandon says, "and things like this," when I would say "and things like that." This may be why I'm not a genre-defining author yet.
Utah based Derry girls about a rural community called Dairy Girls
Speaking as someone who grew up in the 90s, the term "Punk" has no special meaning beyond a general knowledge that it's a music genre and a popular suffix for story genres.
I would argue that Ghost in the Shell is very Cyberpunk.
Would the Deus Ex games be considered cyberpunk?
The trick for Dan and his favorite show problem is to hire Diane Duane as his assistant executive producer.
Where is my food heist? I want my food heist! 😢
Didn't that start in Ghost in the Shell?
was not expecting there you go ben. can we expect new ben outros in the future?
Generalisation?
All YA sci-fi novels are now called “chicken”
Dan, "Cyberpunk -2077" would likely get you the search results you want
30 minutes of Cyberpunk talk and not a mention of Shadowrun from two table top RPGers?
Blade Runner wasn't inspired by Neuromancer. On the contrary :)
How cyberpunk is Harry Harrison?
Errr..... Ready Player One? Belle? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Cyberpunk 2077 is indeed set in Mike Pondsmith's Cyberpunk universe. He was even heavily involved in making the game.
Really enjoyed listening to this!
Yup, Brandon was right to begin with. I'm not sure what made him doubt himself!
(Speaking of which, as much as everybody complained about Cyberpunk 2077 releasing too early, it never really bothered me, because I always thought it was cool that the follow-up to Cyberpunk 2020 released in 2020.)
@@brianlinden3042 And honestly I never experienced any serious issues with the game at launch, and I played it on PS4 ... baseline PS4 at that. I must've been one of the lucky ones, but yeah, I didn't even experience framerate stutter. I switched to PC for unrelated reasons, but yeah, I was untouched by the whole fiasco.
@@brianlinden3042 pretty sure that was part of the reason why they released it early
Short and sweet Cyberpunk definition: high tech, low life.
Nailed it
How much of a margin is there for variation here? I've always seen the 80s as so pivotal and influential to the genre, but I can only think of a view different kinds of stories that still apply as 'cyberpunk' (Alita, Matrix, Tron, etc.)
Fantasy: High magic, low life
Today we have homeless people with laptops and smartphones, so...
"I'm deeply upset it's called cyberpunk because it makes searching for other cyberpunk stuff..." 100% agree! So annoying
On the topic of bionic hands/arms:
My fiancee was born missing a bit below the elbow onward on her right arm, so she's got a few inches of the forearm. About 5 years ago she went through the process and was able to get a bionic hand. This works by attaching the hand to a polycarbonate arm-socket prosthetic, which contains a battery and two electrodes, one each on the front and back of the forearm. The muscle actions that open and close, rotate, and change grip pattern of the hand are the same that would flex or extend the hand at the wrist joint in varying combinations.
We've done a little looking into what's currently available. They've had a little success with the "brain wave" type function in a few ways. The most interesting to me is an implantation of biopsied muscle from elsewhere on the individual into the arm with further implantation of electrodes and leads connected to those pieces of muscle individually. This does require extensive training to create that mind-muscle connection, but it's pretty cool. There is also lots of work being done with osseointegration and using nerve signaling, which is also extremely interesting and probably ultimately the best route forward for limb different individuals.
Funny enough, the big hurdle seems to be measuring... Intent and Command :)
I will always be thankful to mr. Sanderson for finishing wheel of time. It was my first fantasy series and i will forever cherish it. Thank you, so much for taking on such a risk doing justice to the series.
Word
pretty certain that Cyberpunk 2077 is a continuation of or based in the RPG Cyberpunk by Mike Pondsmith
You are absolutely right.
@@Thebigbad1013 yeah it's interesting - I looked it up to see if the game or the literary genre label "cyberpunk" came out first, turns out it was within a few months of eachother.
That's what I thought! Thanks for the confirmation.
@@BrandSanderson wow you really do read and respond to comments, thank you for being a man of the people!
The PDF of the original rulebook is in the game files.
Dan choosing Derry Girls as his favorite IP is classic Dan!
I just want to say that I love this podcast, and I look forward to it weekly. The world needs more nerdy friendships like Dan+Brandon! Thanks for saying nerdy things and letting us listen in :)
Neuromancer is a heist novel. You're mixing it up with Blade Runner, which is the noir detective novel. Furthermore, the Japanese influence came from both of those.
There's a good podcast that talks about all kinds of cyberpunk media. New, old, popular, obscure, good, bad. www.youtube.com/@hightechlowlifepodcast . They're about to go on a break, so you can catch up.
As for taking over a beloved fictional universe? No. Even if I love something, when I play around with my own knock-off, I can't perfectly recreate it. Orcs are people, not born evil. The Force is just a tool. Etc.
Ah Blade Runner. Yeah I was confused by that claim. Now I get what they were thinking about.
Indigo Gaming has a pretty good cyberpunk series too.
How about this controversial take: Isaac Asimov's Foundation or Frank Herbert's Dune are "core" cyberpunk.
Akira is THE key Cyberpunk work from Japan in the 80s and it also was one of the first anime to breach the gap and become really popular in America, leading it to influence a lot of other Cyberpunk works and define the West's perception of Japanese animation for it's generation. So I'd say that's probably the biggest reason why Cyberpunk and Japan are often linked. Tokyo makes a convenient influence for a huge futuristic city with emphasis on technological advancement as well
I don't think it's fair to attribute Akira as the reason for the Cyberpunk and Japan link. In the 80s Japan was seen as THE future of mankind. As in, people thought Japan lived in this strange futuristic land that was just about to take us all over with their technology and cultute... then came the 90s and 2000s and Japan just kinda stagnated and its economy stopped growing ever since. Looking back, people were either wrong about Japan being the future, or they were right and the future kinda sucks (which also kinda aligns with cyberpunk's pov as well).
Plus there's a whole bunch of other cyberpunky stuff from Japan, like Bubblegum Crisis.
@@barrett8637 True, but none of that hit mainstream in the West the way Akira did. I'm talking purely from an American/Hollywood perspective here
And… look at some of the corporations in Japan as well. We think American/european companies are too big? Mitsubishi makes cars, AC units etc and is the biggest bank in Japan and the 9th biggest in the world.
I thought the same thing when they were naming anime that contributed to the Japanese link haha. Akira is definitely the biggest influence to that I think, not the only influence, but damn that was so iconic when I was a kid and it's still what I think of with cyberpunk.
Was this the philosophical quandary of Brandon being asked to finish the Wheel of Time?
Wheel of Time was a slightly different situation, but it was why I thought of this. Realizing that if I said yes to the WOT, I risked ruining it was daunting. Then again, saying no and risking someone else ruining it was also a consideration...
I've considered your opportunity cost discussion so many times.
All I hear is that we will get a surprise MB cyberpunk era at the same time or right after era 3. BS needs Dan to write it because of time and familiarity with the genre🎉😂
Brandon has joked about exactly that in the past but has largely dismissed it given he already has 24 years of books planned and doesn't want to add a whole extra trilogy to the pile.
But then he didn't plan on the secret projects either....
Today I learned its Derry not Dairy. I assumed it was teen girls working on a dairy ranch.
I don't know if they mention it (haven't finished the video yet), but my absolute favorite Cyberpunk universe is Shadowrun. Just all around cool stuff going on with it, love the stories that the games tell with companion characters too.
Edit: they didn't bring it up :(
I really enjoyed the punkgate discussion!
In regard to the conversation around 32:00. The other suffix I have heard instead of -punk is -core. Like pastel-core or gnome-core.
Is the fast and the furious franchise, diesel punk?
I was JUST talking about how to define cyberpunk with my coworkers a few days ago, this is perfect!
I'm gonna come in with a slight counterpoint: VR actually IS seeing quite a boom and becoming an incredibly versatile tech, Facebook's Metaverse just suuuucks 😂 People in platforms like VR Chat have worked out full body tracking, dynamic movable character rigs, facial recognition, and competely custom avatars to be whatever you want (instead of Zuck's floating torso with legs), and there's worlds that put some AAA games to shame with the detail and creativity. There's even been VR conventions rising from the pandemic, with one last year getting almosk 10k attendees!
The channel "People Make Games" did a really good exploration into VR Chat. I'd recommend checking that out if people are intrigued by this comment.
Even VR chat still is a niche. There are audience for that but it's not something like smartphones and technologies like video calls.
@@guvkon For sure, it's definitely niche and has somewhat of an entry barrier (cost of hardware, mobility, etc). I mostly meant that as examples of "modern successful VR technology", the corporate-made dumpster fire that is the Metaverse wouldn't be a prime example. There's TONS of amazing things being done in the VR space, but mostly by smaller devs and individuals.
Now I need an episode where Dan gets Brandon to watch Gravity Falls
10:30 Instead of the term cyberpunk I think Dan means cyberspace, coined in William Gibson's Neuromancer novel [1983] .
Gibson's short story Fragments of a Hologram Rose [1977] isn't cyberpunk per se, but his Johnny Mnemonic [1981] is.
This video came at an interesting time. I just started watching Edgerunners.
Ready Player One? Dystopia, Corporate rule, Poverty, AI/VR as escapism / means getting around corporate rule.🤔
I am surprised Dan didn't mention (or probably doesn't know) about Akira or Battle Angel Alita. Especially Akira whose influences can be seen in cyberpunk media all over the world after it
What about Richard Morgan and his Altered carbon series? It felt like 1 of the more modern cyber punk properties for me.
I think Altered Carbon is unquestionably cyberpunk, though it wanders off into other genres of science fiction from time to time with the aliens.
Other then Akira as it’s been mentioned I would include the following. Bubblegum Crisis, Ghost in the Shell, A.D. Police (same world as bubblegum crisis), Mardok Scramble, and Cyber City Oedo 808.
Edit: Alita: Battle Angel (blanked out on this one) but all could be considered cyberpunk.
George DESERVES to be insulted on this. Remind the old man that lying about your progress loses you respect and people are less tender and loving about your pride when they feel they've been intentionally misled. And the fans being intentionally provocative towards George is a direct consequence of his long pattern of behavior.
(This statement is also intentionally provocative. For those that might miss that in the forest for the trees situation that internet discourse tends to be)
I also ADORE Cyberpunk! I'm writing a book series set in a cyberpunk universe and I love original works from back in the 70s and 80s
Yeah I would call Philip K. Dick proto-cyberpunk
We are SO CLOSE to DEUS EX cyberpunk games, with all the synthetic implants, corporations, division between people pro-implants vs human purity, etc.
39:10 I think it happened because Kanji is an amazing language for large square or vertical signs. especialy when compared to latin languages
I love Frostpunk! Though that game does not love me. It has such an amazing sound track. I can't wait for the second one to come out.
Frostpunk is amazing! But it can be extremely brutal sometimes
As an amputee, I would love for cybernetics to provide even better mobility.
Dan and brandon teasing us now. Tell us about the Desk! 😂😂😂
Just a thought; It has been some time since I actually read Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, but Blade Runner, apparently, was quite in line, visually, with Philip K. Dick vision of that future. While he didn't live to see the film released, he was able to view some complete footage, and he is said to have been very impressed, and is quoted as having stated that it felt, to him, like Ridley Scott has reached right into his head and extracted his vision of it. Assuming the book doesn't really have any of that in it, and assuming that it's true that Dick said these things about his early screenings of the film, it could be interesting to discuss the disparity such as why are they so different if the world is meant to look like that? Is that any sort of problem? And, what are the advantages and disadvantages to leaving out certain world details, in this case, those that Dick did not include in his novel, but he clearly envisioned them when he wrote it?
Cyberpunk is why I lean conservative and want the decentralization of entertainment and government.
Cyberpunk is about the dangers of unchecked capitalism, not the dangers of a centralized government.
Just for mentioning DEEP PURPLE, thumbs up!
Ah I forgot I subbed to Brandon. I'm definitely not dissapointed. I love cyberpunk.
YT algo delivers again
I enjoyed Snow Crash as well. Neal Stephenson and Bruce Sterling are the cyberpunk authors I can wrap my head around.
Snow Crash is on my list, kinda weird I mostly know of Bruce as the guy that's friends with and a huge fan off William Gibson. He always reminded me of that chubby intern on the office. Have some of his work on my TBR list too but I don't even remember their name, just that there is an anthology.
Neuromancer is one of my favorite books ever
@@3choblast3r4 that's fair, to be honest the Bruce Sterling stories I have read are short stories. I do have that one Sterling+Gibson tandem book The Difference Engine but I haven't really read it. Quite different than either of their works since it's technically a period novel.
I clicked on this thinking, "Oh! They're gonna talk about the game!" Fell right into the trap Dan talks about at 9:06.
Just a reminder that Brandon uses the word “gearpunk” in the acknowledgment section of the Rithmatist to describe the books genre.
If you want good, contemporary, relevant cyberpunk, then look to T. R. Napper. His works: Neon Leviathan (2020), 36 Streets (2022), Ghost of the Neon God (2024), and The Escher Man (2024). He's won a bunch of awards in his home country of Australia, and is highly regarded.
Can we just take a moment to appreciate William Gibson’s title selections? Neuromancer, Count Zero, and Mona Lisa Overdrive are all incredible titles.
I think the popularity of metaverse/VR-related stories is because of the narrative possibilities they offer, not because they were ever seen as a convincing vision of the future. They’re the SF version of portal fantasies.
Quite late commenter. One big reason that Japan is so cemented in cyberpunk is how connected the corporations are. We look at Meta or Amazon and wonder if they’re too intrusive (which sure, they are), but look at Mitsubishi. Cars, Ac units sure. But also the biggest bank in Japan and 9th biggest in the world.
12:32 ~ From a writing perspective these are the main elements of *Cyberpunk,* think do I. The first is the government is either weak an ineffectual, or they are merely another one of an oligarchy of corporations, the government would have different hiring & interests than a default corporation, believe do I. That oligarchy is typically shown as extremely impeding the protagonist form satisfying his outer conflict.
A newly created cyberpunk does *not* have to have *Artificial Intelligence* but it is kind of like what H. E. A. is to Romance, think do I. The line between biology & machine has been so blurred as being invisible. The genre typically has the protagonist fight the corporations, feel do I.
Another element that can vary, is the typical species/races in Fantasy are sometimes included. An example of fantasy races in Cyberpunk is Netflix's movie Bright has at least *Orcs* & *Elves.*
These are just the impressions left on the distortion of mine. 😅
🌒🌕🌘