So, I just pledged all-in after not wanting to for a long time. Why the change of heart? It wasn't the graphics which admittedly were the hardest thing to pass up (I'm a sucker for great art). The asymmetric play didn't hurt either, as I love, love, love the very thematic-mechanic synergy you got going on (not to mention the crazy variety). But that does tie into why I originally did not want to back it. You see, my game group plays almost a new game every week and so it's hard to teach a new game, ESPECIALLY one with asymmetric player boards. And so I was afraid that Merchants Cove simply wouldn't get the amount of playtime in that it deserves. And, in all honesty, an Automa Solo Mode? That would just remind me of the fact that no one else would be playing... But then I read about your Scenario Book! Holy Cow! THAT'S a game changer! Because now, instead of focusing on simply winning against a faceless opponent, there's a thematic challenge involved. And with 4 (+2 with the expansions that I now MUST have) times 12 story challenges, that's at least 72 times I can enjoy MC by myself in between rolling it out to my game group for a 4-5 player competition!
How heavy would you say this is using the BBG scale as a gauge? Have we gotten a asymmetrical gateway going on here? Is it mid-weight? Or are we dealing with another aneurysm-inducing slog like Vast is?
I'd put it in the mid-weight category, with purposeful design goals that allow for more accessibility than other well-known asymmetrical games. You don't need to know the intricacies of each role to be competitive - you just need to compete on the clock and the boats, and watch what they are producing.
The game they sell at the store only for 4 players? I am considering to buy this or Sleeping Gods this year? Which one do you think will get played more with 3-5 players? Thanks Richard.
depends on whether you want a big sprawling campaign game that you continue the story over multiple sessions (sleeping gods) or if you want a standalone game where everyone is effectively playing their own completely unique game, but still competing with each other (merch cove). also, sleeping is a co-op while cove is competitive... :)
So, is this good enough for you to keep/acquire despite the 2P nastiness? Or is the cut-throatedness too much for you , despite the excellent game otherwise?
i'm really torn. jen *REALLY* enjoyed it, and she's in general more comfortable with making aggressive moves than i am (everyone assume's jen's the peacenik, but i'm the real carebear in the house). apparently they're working on solo rules, and i'd be curious to see if they can be worked into a multiplayer game, so that there'd be more dynamic stuff going on in the market so it's not quite so cutthroat...
@@rahdo Great idea. The solo AI can be a 3rd player, no problem. It would ease the washy scoring if you piggyback vs play cutthroat boats. Thanks for the suggestion!
Came here to talk about this. If the solo Automa can act as the third player, I think you could avoid the PvP-ness inherent in the 2P game. It should add enough random intervention that neither human player fully gets what they want. Plans torn asunder by the AI unexpectedly moving customers between boats, etc
@@megashub Exactly. You can do that, or piggyback, or some wild mix in between. The AI is very easy to manage too, so it won't distract from the momentum of the game either. We will definitely start testing it this way to make this an option.
I teach root by explaining the base rules and telling people to learn their own faction. No passengers! If you don't want to learn your faction, don't play.
This looks like all of Final Frontier Games other offerings, BLOATED! Seems like they just cram all mechanics that worked for other popular games the previous year into one to drum up sales. Also doesn't bode well when the paid reviewer couldn't figure out some of the rules, which is another issue this publisher has. Having been burned by Robin Hood and the Merry Men, and knowing what I know now from Rise to Nobility I'll pass.
the one issue i had with the rules was that the setup section for the time traveler mentioned white and blue rondel pieces, but all of my pieces of my prototype were blue, so i wasn't sure how to set it up properly. this was obviously just a prototype issue and i'm sure it won't be there for the final game.
There are thousands of games that come out every year. 1 or 2 of them MIGHT be a high-asymmetry game which is wonderful for those who want them, if you don't, ignore it and move on.
That's quite a strong opinion. I'd hardly call it a "trend." There are thousands of games to choose form every year and it's a highly subjective hobby, so just pass on what doesn't cater to your specific tastes. Don't rain on others' parades just because it isn't something for you though.
Asymmetry is a key feature in a lot of my favourite games. There is a lot of reasons that make such features work great - from supporting players with variable skill levels, to softening the negative effects that can arise from cut-throat competition between players. Though if you prefer completely symmetric games then there are many to choose from. And there always will be.
I'm glad you felt the same way about holding onto the prototype! If they had asked me to send it on I would have wept.
I played this prototype and really enjoyed it. If you like Imhotep then the boat sailing is right up your alley.
good reference! I should have made it!
Saw Stonemaier's Tapestry on the shelf behind!!
Can't wait to see your Final Thought on that game.
Too bad it's also "going above and beyond" in terms of cost. 150$ CAD before shipping.
Well thats if you want the All In.
Thats if you want the All In pledge
So, I just pledged all-in after not wanting to for a long time. Why the change of heart? It wasn't the graphics which admittedly were the hardest thing to pass up (I'm a sucker for great art). The asymmetric play didn't hurt either, as I love, love, love the very thematic-mechanic synergy you got going on (not to mention the crazy variety). But that does tie into why I originally did not want to back it. You see, my game group plays almost a new game every week and so it's hard to teach a new game, ESPECIALLY one with asymmetric player boards. And so I was afraid that Merchants Cove simply wouldn't get the amount of playtime in that it deserves. And, in all honesty, an Automa Solo Mode? That would just remind me of the fact that no one else would be playing... But then I read about your Scenario Book! Holy Cow! THAT'S a game changer! Because now, instead of focusing on simply winning against a faceless opponent, there's a thematic challenge involved. And with 4 (+2 with the expansions that I now MUST have) times 12 story challenges, that's at least 72 times I can enjoy MC by myself in between rolling it out to my game group for a 4-5 player competition!
How heavy would you say this is using the BBG scale as a gauge? Have we gotten a asymmetrical gateway going on here? Is it mid-weight? Or are we dealing with another aneurysm-inducing slog like Vast is?
I'd put it in the mid-weight category, with purposeful design goals that allow for more accessibility than other well-known asymmetrical games. You don't need to know the intricacies of each role to be competitive - you just need to compete on the clock and the boats, and watch what they are producing.
agreed, though i'd probably say light/mid weight :)
I think Richard is getting even softer with his aversion to “mean” player interaction 😂
seems incredibly convoluted.
The game they sell at the store only for 4 players? I am considering to buy this or Sleeping Gods this year? Which one do you think will get played more with 3-5 players? Thanks Richard.
depends on whether you want a big sprawling campaign game that you continue the story over multiple sessions (sleeping gods) or if you want a standalone game where everyone is effectively playing their own completely unique game, but still competing with each other (merch cove). also, sleeping is a co-op while cove is competitive... :)
Thanks Richard
So, is this good enough for you to keep/acquire despite the 2P nastiness? Or is the cut-throatedness too much for you , despite the excellent game otherwise?
i'm really torn. jen *REALLY* enjoyed it, and she's in general more comfortable with making aggressive moves than i am (everyone assume's jen's the peacenik, but i'm the real carebear in the house). apparently they're working on solo rules, and i'd be curious to see if they can be worked into a multiplayer game, so that there'd be more dynamic stuff going on in the market so it's not quite so cutthroat...
@@rahdo Great idea. The solo AI can be a 3rd player, no problem. It would ease the washy scoring if you piggyback vs play cutthroat boats. Thanks for the suggestion!
@@jonnypac I also think that would be a great idea.
Came here to talk about this. If the solo Automa can act as the third player, I think you could avoid the PvP-ness inherent in the 2P game. It should add enough random intervention that neither human player fully gets what they want. Plans torn asunder by the AI unexpectedly moving customers between boats, etc
@@megashub Exactly. You can do that, or piggyback, or some wild mix in between. The AI is very easy to manage too, so it won't distract from the momentum of the game either. We will definitely start testing it this way to make this an option.
My wife also doesn't read rule books. This is why I don't play Vast with her. This looks so fun it might be worth it though.
Great preview, Richard! Very intrigued about asymmetrical games
Can you play with 6 if you buy 2 expansions?
sorry i don't know. you could contact the publisher to ask finalfrontiergames.com/?page_id=1442
Once again, thank you for the great review. The boat manipulaion kills it for us unfortunately.
Don't play imhotep then
@@KutaPuta really? -(
You like me...You REALLY like me!
Ok why you dont have normal reviews? Payment should not affect reviews
i do have 'normal' reviews, and i don't believe payment affects my opinions, but i still declare it in case you think it does
@@rahdo i was warried they give you money for good reviews. In that case i hope all final thoughts are really yours :)
well i think they are :)
seems like a hard pass, thanks!
I teach root by explaining the base rules and telling people to learn their own faction.
No passengers! If you don't want to learn your faction, don't play.
This looks like all of Final Frontier Games other offerings, BLOATED! Seems like they just cram all mechanics that worked for other popular games the previous year into one to drum up sales. Also doesn't bode well when the paid reviewer couldn't figure out some of the rules, which is another issue this publisher has. Having been burned by Robin Hood and the Merry Men, and knowing what I know now from Rise to Nobility I'll pass.
the one issue i had with the rules was that the setup section for the time traveler mentioned white and blue rondel pieces, but all of my pieces of my prototype were blue, so i wasn't sure how to set it up properly. this was obviously just a prototype issue and i'm sure it won't be there for the final game.
If you own one game, Asymmetry is good, if you ever want to play with people it is a nightmare, designers stop this trend of niche crap!
i would say the insane success of root indicates that it's not really niche
There are thousands of games that come out every year. 1 or 2 of them MIGHT be a high-asymmetry game which is wonderful for those who want them, if you don't, ignore it and move on.
That's quite a strong opinion. I'd hardly call it a "trend." There are thousands of games to choose form every year and it's a highly subjective hobby, so just pass on what doesn't cater to your specific tastes. Don't rain on others' parades just because it isn't something for you though.
@@TylerDeLisle Or what Tyler said, lol.
Asymmetry is a key feature in a lot of my favourite games. There is a lot of reasons that make such features work great - from supporting players with variable skill levels, to softening the negative effects that can arise from cut-throat competition between players. Though if you prefer completely symmetric games then there are many to choose from. And there always will be.