Pasteurization vs. Sterilization Pt. 3 (Finale)
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- Опубліковано 26 сер 2024
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My mother always said a *LIKE* and a *COMMENT* helps the tub get dialled in! It's true! 🎉🍻🐦
Suuuup! Lol loving how fast your moving. Daily growth is beautiful. I'm working on a solution to these problems. I need to get trich so I can isolate it and see what works. Adding a small amount of CS may prevent however it may kill other much needed things as well but idk I'm going to find out though
Your momma is very intelligent individual 💯👍🏽
What made u want to experiment with poo 💩? I’m a 💯 cor person because of you sage.
@@chrismoyer7778 Poo was out of necessity (for growing poo lovers rather than coir lovers)!
@@Mycophilia nice, so far would u say there are more things to be concerned with when using poo instead of just cor??
There is a study (Efficiency of treatments for controlling Trichoderma spp during spawning in cultivation of lignicolous mushrooms) where they pasteurized straw at 60Celsius 30min, 80Celsius 30min, sterilized 121Celsius 1.5h and alkalized water 36h. After the different treatments, all bags got inoculated with trichoderma and trichderma couldnt grow on 60Celsius 30min substrate, alkalized water imersion 36h resulted in poor growth, the 80Celsius 30min showed intermediat growth and the sterilized substrat 121Celsius 1.5h had an abundant growth.
I have never had great success with any type of wood substrate or blended wood substrate. I have purchased some that worked but never quite got it correct. The folks I bought from have a 20 PSI autoclave that frankly, beats my presto 23 quart any day. So that says something to me about having equipment with a wider band of capabilities. Awesome video !
Little late to comment on this video, just found your channel a few weeks ago and have been devouring your content. Keep up the great work man, loving it. It seems there's a lot of confusion about what you are trying to do with this experiment and I thought it was super valuable and interesting. I wonder if the source of your problem is the actual source of your compost manure and you might try a repeat of this experiment with a different compost manure and see if you get the same results. I know you talked about switching to straight manure, but there may be some validity to having some "beneficial" bacteria in the nutritious substrate.
There's a couple points worth mentioning. Composting is itself a process of pasturization where the material is heated up via the activity of bacteria. It gets turned outside in, so that the whole pile gets exposed to the heat and bacterial activity. This process kills a lot of undesireable bacteria/fungi/molds, while providing a nice environment for anearobic heat loving bacteria to thrive. Usually this is done outside, and so the outside of the pile is exposed to environmental contamination from whatever is around. Therefore, when the composting is complete, there is inherintly some contamination that goes into the product when it gets bagged up. Since the bags are not then pasturized again, anything "contamination" in the bag has a chance to grown on the nutritious compost, which builds up a reservoir within the bag.
The idea of pasturizing nutritious substrates is to allow "beneficial" bacteria to remain, which will provide biological competition for any "bad" bacteria and molds. Thereby giving the mycelium time to colonize the substrate before the Trich (and others) takes over. The "good" bacteria may also provide some benefit by breaking down the nutrients in the substrate and making those more readily available to the mycelium. The further process that you did of classic pasturizing, low temp sterilizing, and full temp sterilizing was meant to remove those contaminants that developed after the manure was bagged up. It seems that this didn't work for you with any of the methods of cleaning up your manure compost substrate.
You may be right about the wood chips, as I have heard that straw can be particularly difficult to sterilize/pasturize unless cut into small pieces. This is because it is shaped like... a straw, and the contaminants can survive by hiding inside the tube. It may be that the wood in the manure compost is also acting like a protective reservoir for the Trich and other contaminants. There could also just be such a high load of contaminants in the bags (if the bags sat around for a long time, or come from a really dirty composter, or was not properly composted) that anything short of extreme sterilization times is going to fail. Therefore, it might be worth repeating the experiment with a different supplier of manure compost.
I think there's some interesting work in progress and more in the near future as people start playing around with sterilizing nutritious substrates and then adding bacteria to them (probiotics). I've heard of a few products out there, and think it would be fun to play with those at some point.
Thank you for your comment, and I am glad you are enjoying my content! A 12 hour pasteurization completely fixed the trich issue! This batch, and other batches. I only do 1.5 hours pasteurization for peat most casing layers today.
Sage
@@Mycophilia Thanks for the reply and the info! I'm just getting started, so looking forward to putting all this great knowledge to use.
I suspect the sterilization method used in this experiment wasn't sufficient to be a "complete sterilization."
190 degrees for a few hours may not be enough.
I'm basing this off how gourmet mushroom substrates are supposedly pressure cooked at 250 degrees Fahrenheit at 15 PSI for 2 1/2 hours. I'd be curious to see how this experiment would unfold if the sterilized substrates were subjected to those conditions and then inoculated. 🤔
I believe the sterile group in this experiment may not be entirely sterile, and could have been more prone to contamination because some of the "good" competing microorganisms were likely killed in the harsher pasteurization process but not all the "bad" hardy contaminants. Thus they had an even stronger foothold to takeover quicker.
This is just my hunch but I will be conducting a very similar experiment tonight. I'll be sterilizing a nutritious substrate by pressure cooking it at 2.5 hours @ 15 PSI. Then inoculating it with colonized grains.
Best of luck Sage! Love your content. 💪🏼
It is sterile enough for the traditional pancakes to colonize just fine and be in fruiting condition for weeks with this dung. It’s also plenty for my grains, I’ve had a jar last for 2+ years before inoculating it, and the mycelium ate it up. There’s a huge misunderstanding here (not only you but some other comments) of letting things colonize in a sterile environment (aka gourmet bags mixed with spawn+substrate, then sealed) versus what I’m trying to do here, spawn to bulk (aka open air). When spawning to bulk, you pasteurize your substrate as your mycelium will be competing with molds and bacteria during colonization. By pasteurizing you keep beneficial organisms that help the mycelium colonize and stay contam-free. For example, no commercial farm growing a species like button mushrooms (aka spawned to bulk and colonized in open air rather than grown in sterile bags) will use sterilized substrates. They compost the substrate, then pasteurize it to help the mycelium colonize.
I thought it was about substrate, not just dung. I learn a lot by watching your videos. It actually hurt when I saw you get contam.
I have some good knowledge to give. I should've done a video on it myself today but here we go. If we sterilize grains and it kills off bad bacteria and spores why don't we sterilize substrate? The nutrients stay but kills off bad microbes and unwanted fungus. CoCo Coir vermiculite has no nutritional value, meaning it should be sterilized to get rid of contamination beforehand that may be on it. Sterilization is definitely the way to go. Also soaking grains for 8-24hrs is best to get rid of contamination out of grain mixes like Producers Pride grains. Both I learned recently to get the best results. I also sterilize everything before using it just not plastic plates or plastic syringes unless they are glass and not new. I didn't give out sterilize timing because I know you knew for how long. 😅
You’re talking about non-nutritious subs. This whole video series is on manure, it is a completely different story. With coir and vermiculite, you don’t even have to sterilize because there is no nutrition. You can literally just hydrate coir and/or verm and/or gypsum and spawn it just fine 😊
Soaking is also a contested practice, I suggest you look into it. There are two camps that say that it actually increases endospores, and another that says it reduces. Most though now understand that they both work just fine. I can go more into it but I don’t have the time or energy atm.
Sage
@@Mycophilia No matter the substrate, I would still believe it would kill off the bad bacteria, viruses and hidden fungus in the substrate. CoCo Coir on the other hand has no microbes nor nutritional value. They can carry fungus, bacteria and viruses that can kill plants as well as mushrooms. So contested or not, sterilizing in a PC is the best option but to do it correctly you need an autoclave to get it to 250°F. If I remember right that is how you sterilize substrate for cannabis is in an oven at 250°F. Watched a lab technician talk about sterilizing substrates and at what temperatures to kill off bad bacteria, viruses and fungus like trichoderma that is heat resistant.
What about proper pasteurization temperatures but for longer periods of time, that would perhaps allow the center of the wood pieces to reach an adequate temperature? You're probably correct about using just plain dung. It might even be the source of the compost dung, assuming it is all from the same "batch."
The first time I tried this dung I pasteurized for 4+ hours, and it still trich’ed out on me. I’m sick of wasting spawn on this 😂 so I’m gonna do only manure next time and see if it’s any better
@@Mycophilia one might say that this experiment has been a real shit show.
Hi Sage, would you be willing to edit your pinned comment to summarize everything you learned from this experiment, in some succinct bullet points? And finally what to do to be successful?
Basically, my findings supported the mainstream understanding of pasteurization for nutritious subs, time after time. Also, pasteurize manure for 12 hours, not 1.5 hours. That was my issue.
I sort of regret making this video as the whole premise was to test somebody’s confident (but extra-ordinary) assumption that sterilization is best, and pasteurization doesn’t make sense (aka how does bacteria help prevent contam).
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and despite asking him numerous times to list his sources, he never delivered any. He just kept defending his point, playing the victim, saying I wasn’t sterilizing it right.
He eventually did post the main source he was talking about, a mushroom farmer who sterilizes their grow bag for 4 hours. I watched it, and realized the person making the claims did not know the difference between sterilizing grains/all in one bags, and bulk-style grows. And I always suspected he didn’t know what he was talking about, but I thought it would make an interesting video series to put it to the test.
When I told him that bulk grows and invitro-style grows are different, he got even more defensive and kept repeating the same misinformation on my vids, so I asked him to post his own videos showing exactly that. After days of persuading, he finally posted one, putting his sub inside a PC, then took it down a few days later. Still kept posting comments, ultimately I had to hide his comments to prevent further misinformation.
I regret making this series because by me making it an “experiment” (when in reality it’s not an experiment but just showing obvious fact that’s basic knowledge), some beginners get the idea that pasteurization and sterilization are some contested controversial topics 😂 The nature of this topic is comparable to, “Is the Earth flat? Or round?” In 2024.
By engaging with fools, you end up accidentally making people believe in a fool. There’s so many out there who project a confident tone and spread bad info, and that’s really what’s more important to many people than the truth. Conmen and conwomen.
Sorry for the rant, I’m in a doctor’s office so I had time to kill. And this incident really bothered me at the time, and still does as there are so many of these characters out there.
@@Mycophilia Oh, thanks for all that information. I got the gist of it being an experiment and that claims about sterilization and pasteurization were in doubt. What I thought was missing was your final conclusion, even if it was to confirm what you believed prior to the experiments. So, when to sterilize, when to pasteurize… just a couple of succinct recommendations. Sorry that some dude was hassling you with BS. There are plenty of fools out there.
Definitely an idea for a future video!
Why don't you just heat them separately, so the wood chips can be done at a higher temperature and poo at a lower, pasteurization temperature?
They’re all mixed together.
🍄
Its probably because you don't have filters on your kids, or a dry vermiculite layer over the poo to act as a filter.
No, it is because it was sterilized and spawned to bulk in the air. This is not PF tek where everything colonizes inside a sealed sterile jar. The same reason you don’t put a dry vermiculite layer on your monotubs and shoeboxes.
@@Mycophiliaopen air??