Just take the W bro, these changes are the bare minimum. I know pro players like to think that everything depends on them and their skill, but the community feedback on the race's strengths is unanimous, you need some buffs.
I think the community has been fooled again. I'll explain: protoss need a buff at the base level. Why because the units aren't very useful in the begging stage. Zealots is too slow and a marine can kill a zealots with good micro. Stalkers truly suck against maurader and marine maurader + medicac is the end of the base use of zealots and Stalkers. I propose to increase the speed of zealots by 0,18 and stalkers having extra 1% damage vs armor. That is all. I don't have to be a pro to understand this. What would this do? It won't substantially change the game but some things will change. For example maurader rush will be easier to defend and 12 pool would have less impact. Because with two zelaosts who are faster you can micro mush better. Tank pushes would also be easier to stop with stalker bonus damage. The impact of this in late game will be truly insignificant but the survivability of early game would increase exponentially. Why should terran existence be guaranteed for the first 6min against any match up but Toss aren't. I think these proposed changes would make a world of difference for protoss. My God how dull are these guys not to see this. Mothership and tempest changes do absolutely nothing for protoss vs Terran
I just want to say, I love these new changes so much! Yes, there is always a bit that one could nitpick but I was really disappointed by the initial patch and now I am just super happy.
Pretty much agree with you 100%, the mothership change and ghost change(wrong change imo) is quite weird, but the fact that they're keeping spores 8 shotting oracle to me is quite strange
I'm very happy they reverted a lot of changes. Blue flame buff was weird, turret salvage was opposite from what they wanted to do, new lib was total bs. It's a very good quality to accept your mistakes
*4x Changes: 1)* Ghost becomes a light Unit; EMP does base 100 dmg to shields/energy w/ upgrade 150/150 which increases dmg to 150; Reduce attack speed by 40%, making investment into ghosts mandatory to counter spellcasters/Shields but bad to mass due to low dmg, higher fragility & higher supply cost. *2)* Ultralisk upgrade for faster regen when burrowed (not as fast as roaches) encouraging saving low health ultras for better long term cost investment. *3)* Delete the cyclone and bring back the Goliath (it was a Robocop ED-209 Inspired Unit) to fill a similar roll of ranged Mech base level Unit alongside the Helbats with a "Railgun" ability (similar to voidray) which is continuous and hits for faster IF they dont move to interrupt the attack *4)* Delete neural parasite (or Infester altogether) and bring back the Defiler with the ability to move underground alongside Plague which was Zerg's way of countering Protoss that turtled & Dark Swarm which countered Terran that turtled. *Great changes to Mothership not being abductable and Ultra pushing Units! About Time!
Great adjustment so far. Overall in TvP Late game though I think something else must still be done. We have ghost supply nerf and disruptor nerf. Seems Terran still will have the edge. I think we should test putting the damage and radius back but very slightly increasing the range so it’s not so easy to dodge. This would strengthen zoning potential which Protoss really needs. If you point and shoot it at a swell of units it won’t make a huge difference but it would be a buff for high level players that commit the actions and attention to retarget midway which is skill expression.
Terrans currently don’t have the edge. I think that’s the biggest misconception about the patch conversation I have seen. Skillus hinted at that when he was talking. Pvt currently favors toss by any measure of the ladder you can find (Aligulac is my source).
I don't really understand why people think "it doesn't oneshot" is the same as "does nothing". it used to do 0 damage because it didn't hit anything, now it takes a big clump of units to a sliver of hp? (and I did see pig cast a game where the disruptor balls did oneshot big clumps because the terran army was stimmed/otherwise damaged)
as a side note, abducting a mothership ,which is a heroic huge unit is kinda a KEKW ; so... not being able to abduct it it just makes sense and I really think it should be that way
It makes it impossible for a zerg to deal with a mothership aside from just diving in with corruptors tho. Sadly this change buffs a protoss " deathball " way of playing in lategame with 200 supply under a mothership and batteries to support, tempest to poke. Personally i think the current mothership is already good and just giving it the multiple attacks buff would be super good already, making it not abductable just reduces the interactions in the game and might lead to big PvZ late game problems imo.
@@XayadSC Then make the pull acceleration relative to the amount of abducts applied to it at any given time. That way both sides are rewarded/punished for their skill execution. I'm so tired of seeing a 400/400 unit instantly just die because Toss missed a single feedback. The lore implication is absurd as well, a single tongue pulling a Protoss city is silly to think about and watch.
I have to say this is why protoss is/was underpowered. When they buff toss all tosses are too humble and mindful of the other races, while z and t are like LETS GO!!!!111
I think absuct just should work less effective on giants like a half and mamaship like a one quarter that it will need 4 abducts . Also i wish broodlords could crawl without attacks. It will be protected from vikings and corrutpirs
As a terran i'l just play 1-1-1 all in in every single tvp with this cyclone change. No widow mine drop, no armory widow mine drop, no any cyclone push, no save play at the beginning, especially with stalker production time reduce. Almost no threats for toss in early game, while toss have new orackle with full energy, stronger proxy gate, same power 4 gate blink all in. Ghost change may be not bad, cancel turrets salvage and liberator also not bad, but give me back my cyclones, you can't remove it
"strong community feedback" was the goal so they can justify the real patch. I didn't see blue flame researched in any TvZ, yet they found an issue with it only now? It was intended as bait and they just proved it, responding to a balance issue that never even materialised.
The ghost meta made me wuit watching TvZ games. Its simply the most boring, unenjoyable matchup to watch, almost as bad as 2 stargate voidray. Also, 5:00 "Nerfing ghost is a good change always." Lol
totally agree. TvZ used to be THE starcraft matchup to watch when people went for this extended mid game where it was fighting on 2-3 fronts for 20 minutes straight. super exciting to watch the best players keep up the aggression
It may be ok in PvT, but I feel protoss maybe a little too strong in PvZ. I would say Protoss early defense is nerfed but mid-late get buffed because of the new ability and mothership. For a zerg player, they get more power in mid game hydra play in ZvP but late game ZvP will be harder. However, considering the change on the microbial shroud, it maybe better to handle skytoss but harder to deal with ground toss + mothership. ZvT is now better considering the nerf on ghost's supply cost. Protoss players will play a (kind of) new game which is an intriguing point for the old game.
Zerg still have a overwhelming amount of options vs Protoss, i'm just happy that P got straight up buff and not a "we removed THE defensive tool for you and gave you a energy recharge with 60s global cd that does not adress the issue we've just created" o-o
@@llamadelreyii3369 I also think the cool down of the new ability should be reduced. Starcraft 2 is a fast paving game. One minute for a tatical ability is too long.
My main concerns with these changes are the broodlord - ultra- and mothership. Mothership - Without abduct the only way to get rid of it is by diving on it which can become catastrophic with archons underneath. Im not explaining it well but the idea is how good it will be with good micro, the damage, the effects it has, and being ridiculously hard to kill. Perhaps parabomb on it will just have to be the go to? Ultra and Broodlord - I dont understand the intent of this change because outside of marauder and marine interactions it will also be much more difficult to disengage from snipes, or just engage. The broodlord becomes the trashlord again and will need monumental investment and insane spellcaster support just to make it feel useable to break turtle positions. Nothing about these changes make me think Terrans will move out of their planetary tank lib zones, Zerg will still be taking immensely inefficient trades to try to break through, and ZvP lategame was the only place I felt the Protoss was actually stronger than Z and it seems to have gotten better especially for ladder protoss players. Can we just make snipe uninterruptable, lower the damage to 50 across the board and make it revert the change to the leash range on it? They get guaranteed damage back on it so they know a fungal won't stop it but the damage is tankable so you CAN engage and not lose the entire army at once. It becomes the same power level in a defensive or offensive position. The core issue is that snipe can be interrupted by damage. You could evenly slightly nerf Ultra HP to compensate since the Ultra is the main reason snipe damage is so damn high. Idk, Im not a dev or pro player but it seems to me the ideas they have to stop camping just further enforce it.
My idea for broods is oet let Broods to land and crawl without attacking. They will move faster on creep also they will have options to use nydus also it could be suitable protection from air-air units
Wrong Changes!!! Spore too strong still killing oracles too fast. And disruptor is basically useless now in PvZ and much worse in PvT. Disruptor needs less cool-down to make up for the less DPS potential it has now. Or let it store up 2 shots which the second shot will still take 2 cool-downs to get.
1. Missile turret salvage allows them to move. This makes the turtle style more active by definition. Why would you get rid of it? 2. The ghost is dead. 50% supply increase is the single biggest nerf ever given to a unit. Baneling lost 11% hp and it's still the biggest nerf to zerg yet. If you want to lower the supply efficiency of the ghost you have to lower the cost and stat profile because going to 3 is simply to far. 3. If nerfing turtle playstyles is the goal why is there no tank nerf? This is literally the most afk do nothing unit that is at the core of turtle terran. The ghost isn't the problem with terran turtling and never has been. The unit that will cause the most problems for protoss defense without the shield battery, the unit that has made tvt zero fun for the last 13 years, and the unit that's actually causing the problem for ZvT lategame is the tank. 4. The liberator change was good. If the aoe is too strong just lower it. Radiuses increase the area exponentially, dropping the radius increase from 1.25 to 1 would have been fine compared to just removing it entirely. These changes to the patch are objectively wrong. You can't nerf the ghost this hard with a dead widow mine. Terran now has no midgame and no lategame. The lategame comp that Terran used to be active in the lategame is ghost/mine. It's now unplayable. Terrans will afk behind a wall of tanks every TvZ. A ghost nerf literally makes turtling the ONLY viable strategy if Terran doesn't win in the opening.
How has ghosts never been apart of Terran turtling? Are you saying Terran running around with 20 ghosts spamming snipes on everything wasn’t the defining Terran late game for the last few years? Ghost is way stronger in its supply count than other spell casters like the high Templar or infestors that have low health and move speed to contrast their strong abilities. I do not think tank has been the issue in a two base push or a camping Terran, it has always been the combination of marine marauder that shuts down any counter play. The tank is relatively low in health and have multiple counters from both races, I do not think it needs a nerf. As long as there are marines and marauders, the early and mid game of Terran is still alive.
You seem to be the only person who thinks this. From what ive seen the entire community almost unanimously agree with the T changes. Gona have to get used to the changes bro cause looks like they are staying.
Just take the W bro, these changes are the bare minimum. I know pro players like to think that everything depends on them and their skill, but the community feedback on the race's strengths is unanimous, you need some buffs.
yea i get the feeling this might be how the protoss representatives sound who are in the council
I think the community has been fooled again. I'll explain: protoss need a buff at the base level. Why because the units aren't very useful in the begging stage. Zealots is too slow and a marine can kill a zealots with good micro. Stalkers truly suck against maurader and marine maurader + medicac is the end of the base use of zealots and Stalkers. I propose to increase the speed of zealots by 0,18 and stalkers having extra 1% damage vs armor. That is all. I don't have to be a pro to understand this. What would this do?
It won't substantially change the game but some things will change. For example maurader rush will be easier to defend and 12 pool would have less impact. Because with two zelaosts who are faster you can micro mush better. Tank pushes would also be easier to stop with stalker bonus damage.
The impact of this in late game will be truly insignificant but the survivability of early game would increase exponentially. Why should terran existence be guaranteed for the first 6min against any match up but Toss aren't. I think these proposed changes would make a world of difference for protoss. My God how dull are these guys not to see this. Mothership and tempest changes do absolutely nothing for protoss vs Terran
The changes are steps in right direction.
Ghost costing 3 supply is a more impactful imo that ppl give it credit for.
3 supply ghost is extremely impactful in TvZ where T has 20+ ghost but not so impactful in TvP where maybe 8 on the field at any one time.
I didn't expect the cyclone revert. Very exited to see early game PvT in the new patch.
I just want to say, I love these new changes so much! Yes, there is always a bit that one could nitpick but I was really disappointed by the initial patch and now I am just super happy.
Objectively all good changes, but I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t looking forward to trying the buffed brood lords
Pretty much agree with you 100%, the mothership change and ghost change(wrong change imo) is quite weird, but the fact that they're keeping spores 8 shotting oracle to me is quite strange
Realistically how many games do oracles get more than 3 drones
The mothership change is great though. Finally it is usable against Zerg
it's ok, it costs zerg a drone in the early game. and oracle has even more functions than kill.
Pig said he would change it to 17 damage so it 10 shots instead of eleven
I'm very happy they reverted a lot of changes. Blue flame buff was weird, turret salvage was opposite from what they wanted to do, new lib was total bs. It's a very good quality to accept your mistakes
All 3 terran buffs felt weird, he?
*4x Changes: 1)* Ghost becomes a light Unit; EMP does base 100 dmg to shields/energy w/ upgrade 150/150 which increases dmg to 150; Reduce attack speed by 40%, making investment into ghosts mandatory to counter spellcasters/Shields but bad to mass due to low dmg, higher fragility & higher supply cost.
*2)* Ultralisk upgrade for faster regen when burrowed (not as fast as roaches) encouraging saving low health ultras for better long term cost investment.
*3)* Delete the cyclone and bring back the Goliath (it was a Robocop ED-209 Inspired Unit) to fill a similar roll of ranged Mech base level Unit alongside the Helbats with a "Railgun" ability (similar to voidray) which is continuous and hits for faster IF they dont move to interrupt the attack
*4)* Delete neural parasite (or Infester altogether) and bring back the Defiler with the ability to move underground alongside Plague which was Zerg's way of countering Protoss that turtled & Dark Swarm which countered Terran that turtled.
*Great changes to Mothership not being abductable and Ultra pushing Units! About Time!
GHOST NERFED LET'S GOOOOOOOOO
Great adjustment so far. Overall in TvP Late game though I think something else must still be done. We have ghost supply nerf and disruptor nerf. Seems Terran still will have the edge. I think we should test putting the damage and radius back but very slightly increasing the range so it’s not so easy to dodge. This would strengthen zoning potential which Protoss really needs. If you point and shoot it at a swell of units it won’t make a huge difference but it would be a buff for high level players that commit the actions and attention to retarget midway which is skill expression.
Terrans currently don’t have the edge. I think that’s the biggest misconception about the patch conversation I have seen. Skillus hinted at that when he was talking. Pvt currently favors toss by any measure of the ladder you can find (Aligulac is my source).
I don't really understand why people think "it doesn't oneshot" is the same as "does nothing". it used to do 0 damage because it didn't hit anything, now it takes a big clump of units to a sliver of hp? (and I did see pig cast a game where the disruptor balls did oneshot big clumps because the terran army was stimmed/otherwise damaged)
as a side note, abducting a mothership ,which is a heroic huge unit is kinda a KEKW ; so... not being able to abduct it it just makes sense and I really think it should be that way
It makes it impossible for a zerg to deal with a mothership aside from just diving in with corruptors tho.
Sadly this change buffs a protoss " deathball " way of playing in lategame with 200 supply under a mothership and batteries to support, tempest to poke.
Personally i think the current mothership is already good and just giving it the multiple attacks buff would be super good already, making it not abductable just reduces the interactions in the game and might lead to big PvZ late game problems imo.
@@XayadSC hydras just got a run out of storm ability, and the microbial shroud got a buff, i think both sides got something to be happy about
@@gaborkepiro9061 the hydra buff came with a nerf to its base movement speed though right?
@@emissarygw2264 i think that increases the speed off creep so on creep it should stay the same. Correct me if im wrong
@@XayadSC Then make the pull acceleration relative to the amount of abducts applied to it at any given time. That way both sides are rewarded/punished for their skill execution. I'm so tired of seeing a 400/400 unit instantly just die because Toss missed a single feedback. The lore implication is absurd as well, a single tongue pulling a Protoss city is silly to think about and watch.
finally mothership won't instantly die
I have to say this is why protoss is/was underpowered. When they buff toss all tosses are too humble and mindful of the other races, while z and t are like LETS GO!!!!111
That Stalker change... I love that it doesn't speed up warp ins, but cut off 5 seconds, not 3. That will work wonders against Reaper and engie block
You must be the kind of protoss that are in this council 🙄
I think absuct just should work less effective on giants like a half and mamaship like a one quarter that it will need 4 abducts .
Also i wish broodlords could crawl without attacks. It will be protected from vikings and corrutpirs
As a terran i'l just play 1-1-1 all in in every single tvp with this cyclone change.
No widow mine drop, no armory widow mine drop, no any cyclone push, no save play at the beginning, especially with stalker production time reduce.
Almost no threats for toss in early game, while toss have new orackle with full energy, stronger proxy gate, same power 4 gate blink all in.
Ghost change may be not bad, cancel turrets salvage and liberator also not bad, but give me back my cyclones, you can't remove it
Sad about liberator, map makers are now still limited.
"strong community feedback" was the goal so they can justify the real patch. I didn't see blue flame researched in any TvZ, yet they found an issue with it only now? It was intended as bait and they just proved it, responding to a balance issue that never even materialised.
The ghost meta made me wuit watching TvZ games. Its simply the most boring, unenjoyable matchup to watch, almost as bad as 2 stargate voidray.
Also,
5:00 "Nerfing ghost is a good change always." Lol
totally agree. TvZ used to be THE starcraft matchup to watch when people went for this extended mid game where it was fighting on 2-3 fronts for 20 minutes straight. super exciting to watch the best players keep up the aggression
It may be ok in PvT, but I feel protoss maybe a little too strong in PvZ. I would say Protoss early defense is nerfed but mid-late get buffed because of the new ability and mothership. For a zerg player, they get more power in mid game hydra play in ZvP but late game ZvP will be harder. However, considering the change on the microbial shroud, it maybe better to handle skytoss but harder to deal with ground toss + mothership. ZvT is now better considering the nerf on ghost's supply cost. Protoss players will play a (kind of) new game which is an intriguing point for the old game.
Zerg still have a overwhelming amount of options vs Protoss, i'm just happy that P got straight up buff and not a "we removed THE defensive tool for you and gave you a energy recharge with 60s global cd that does not adress the issue we've just created" o-o
@@llamadelreyii3369 I also think the cool down of the new ability should be reduced. Starcraft 2 is a fast paving game. One minute for a tatical ability is too long.
@@mark11tz Yeah, i think 30 seconds would be fine, 60s its like, warcraft 3 pacing lol
Оперативно, спасибо!
My main concerns with these changes are the broodlord - ultra- and mothership.
Mothership - Without abduct the only way to get rid of it is by diving on it which can become catastrophic with archons underneath. Im not explaining it well but the idea is how good it will be with good micro, the damage, the effects it has, and being ridiculously hard to kill. Perhaps parabomb on it will just have to be the go to?
Ultra and Broodlord - I dont understand the intent of this change because outside of marauder and marine interactions it will also be much more difficult to disengage from snipes, or just engage. The broodlord becomes the trashlord again and will need monumental investment and insane spellcaster support just to make it feel useable to break turtle positions.
Nothing about these changes make me think Terrans will move out of their planetary tank lib zones, Zerg will still be taking immensely inefficient trades to try to break through, and ZvP lategame was the only place I felt the Protoss was actually stronger than Z and it seems to have gotten better especially for ladder protoss players.
Can we just make snipe uninterruptable, lower the damage to 50 across the board and make it revert the change to the leash range on it? They get guaranteed damage back on it so they know a fungal won't stop it but the damage is tankable so you CAN engage and not lose the entire army at once. It becomes the same power level in a defensive or offensive position.
The core issue is that snipe can be interrupted by damage. You could evenly slightly nerf Ultra HP to compensate since the Ultra is the main reason snipe damage is so damn high.
Idk, Im not a dev or pro player but it seems to me the ideas they have to stop camping just further enforce it.
My idea for broods is oet let Broods to land and crawl without attacking. They will move faster on creep also they will have options to use nydus also it could be suitable protection from air-air units
Нужны Гейты по 125 минералов. Мимо 5200 протосс.
I am not how toss is.supposed to play lategame with disruptor nerf
Wrong Changes!!! Spore too strong still killing oracles too fast.
And disruptor is basically useless now in PvZ and much worse in PvT. Disruptor needs less cool-down to make up for the less DPS potential it has now. Or let it store up 2 shots which the second shot will still take 2 cool-downs to get.
1. Missile turret salvage allows them to move. This makes the turtle style more active by definition. Why would you get rid of it?
2. The ghost is dead. 50% supply increase is the single biggest nerf ever given to a unit. Baneling lost 11% hp and it's still the biggest nerf to zerg yet. If you want to lower the supply efficiency of the ghost you have to lower the cost and stat profile because going to 3 is simply to far.
3. If nerfing turtle playstyles is the goal why is there no tank nerf? This is literally the most afk do nothing unit that is at the core of turtle terran. The ghost isn't the problem with terran turtling and never has been. The unit that will cause the most problems for protoss defense without the shield battery, the unit that has made tvt zero fun for the last 13 years, and the unit that's actually causing the problem for ZvT lategame is the tank.
4. The liberator change was good. If the aoe is too strong just lower it. Radiuses increase the area exponentially, dropping the radius increase from 1.25 to 1 would have been fine compared to just removing it entirely.
These changes to the patch are objectively wrong. You can't nerf the ghost this hard with a dead widow mine. Terran now has no midgame and no lategame. The lategame comp that Terran used to be active in the lategame is ghost/mine. It's now unplayable. Terrans will afk behind a wall of tanks every TvZ. A ghost nerf literally makes turtling the ONLY viable strategy if Terran doesn't win in the opening.
How has ghosts never been apart of Terran turtling? Are you saying Terran running around with 20 ghosts spamming snipes on everything wasn’t the defining Terran late game for the last few years? Ghost is way stronger in its supply count than other spell casters like the high Templar or infestors that have low health and move speed to contrast their strong abilities. I do not think tank has been the issue in a two base push or a camping Terran, it has always been the combination of marine marauder that shuts down any counter play. The tank is relatively low in health and have multiple counters from both races, I do not think it needs a nerf. As long as there are marines and marauders, the early and mid game of Terran is still alive.
Lol
bane have also lost dmg.
but agree siege tank slows down the game extremely. and they can come into play relatively early. -> passive game.
You seem to be the only person who thinks this. From what ive seen the entire community almost unanimously agree with the T changes. Gona have to get used to the changes bro cause looks like they are staying.