Are Split Keyboards Better For Ergonomics?
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- Опубліковано 12 лис 2020
- After using the ZSA Moonlander split keyboard and comparing it to the fixed Planck EZ keyboard I have made some interesting discoveries. Namely that the commonly cited advantage for the split keyboard isn't actually an advantage at all!
I'm talking about the issue of wrist angle when typing on a fixed keyboard being a problem. In fact the vertical key columns on a fixed keyboard turns out to be quite appropriate for when your hands are meeting in front of you for a fixed keyboard.
Many people seem to think that because your hands are in front of you your wrists must be angled to use the keyboard - this isn't true and in fact the ergonomic neutral wrist position is used for both the fixed keyboard and the split keyboard.
However the split keyboard does have other advantages and I explore those in this video. From my perspective this seems to be mainly in terms of the impact on your back, chest and shoulders. It's about how your shoulder blades/scapulars and your lats are engaged while typing on the split keyboard.
The keyboards I'm using in this video are the ZSA Moonlander and the Planck EZ. Check them out here: zsa.io
Check out the other keyboard videos on my channel page too: / benvallack
Obviously I am not a medical professional and none of the advice in this video, or any on my channel, constitute medical advice - if you have problems with repetitive strain injuries from computer use you should seek professional advice. This video is purely for entertainment purposes and my own personal opinions.
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This is actually a very interesting channel.
The paint visual was so genius! Content is quality as usual :^)
Thanks! 😀
I agree. I think that paint trick is something everyone who is serious about figuring out what works for them should be doing. My shoulders are much broader than Ben's -- and therefore the "ideal" position and orientation of the keyboard for me is very different than it is for him. This really was a great video.
I absolutely agree that a split keyboard can have massive benefits for your back when working at a desk all day. I can't say I agree with your take on non split keyboards, but that is just due to how my arms seem to rest when using that style of keyboard, my left wrist in particular has quite an extreme angle. For you it is different.
I think that in itself is a good take away from this video & the comment discussions. There is neither a right or wrong answer to the question posed in the title. Some people can type all day on a 60% without issue, where as others can end up with serious shoulder & wrist pains. If you do end up with these pains, a split keyboard is a worthwhile investment.
I completely agree about the shoulders, it's the main reason I use a split keyboard.
But the finger motion not so much.
You're (we're) just so used to the fanning out of the fingers due to normal keyboards, if you put your hands in a wrist support or just hold your wrist so it doesn't move, the natural motion of the fingers is straight, with the exception of the pinky.
I've got a moonlander as well and had trouble writing on it, until I realized that rotating the keyboard out was just doing the same thing I found so annoying about normal keyboard. Once I got used to it being straight, I found it much more relaxing on my wrists.
I say this as someone with lifelong orthopedic troubles, so if I'm doing something wrong with my wrists, I can feel it very quickly.
And even if it's a natural movement, we usually put pressure on our wrists to turn them outward, contacting the thinner muscles on the outside of your arm. So if you set up your split keyboard in the other direction, turning your wrist inward, you're using the larger top/inner muscles, and relieving the overworked outer muscles.
All of this said, I'm no doctor or physical therapist. So I might be completely wrong.
But for me it felt much better after I had my moonlander far apart and almost completely horizontal (still working on finding the best angle /setup)
Very interesting, thanks for commenting, yeah I do wonder if some people may well still benefit from keeping them vertical even far apart.
@@BenVallack I do agree that most of the discomfort is alleviated by the ortho layout, and switch from qwerty to... pretty much anything else. But for people who already have wrist problems, forcing yourself to a horizontal layout might be that bit more healthy.
Depends on the person of course.
Yeah that's really interesting - I just experimented with the 'inline' angle - it seems like there is much more movement involved for the outer fingers to reach the top row - meaning my whole hand has to move to make the stretch. Do you find that?
@@BenVallack if you mean the top alpha row, then for the pinky yes, but that's not used much in colemak. Turning the kb forces the middle and ring fingers lower, making stretching them easier, at the cost of less relaxed fingers. The index finger does stretch a bit, but turning the kb doesn't really change that, if anything the movement is hampered by the middle two fingers. And again, the J in colemak is banished to that corner, so not often used.
The number row is all macros for me, so only in use when I'm not typing.
The thumb is better positioned with the keyboard twisted but only if you have big hands, I found that my thumb naturally rests on the gap between piano keys and bottom row, and turning the hinge up just makes things worse since you're moving your thumb completely in the opposite to the natural movement.
So like it or not, it's inline for me (I'm hoping to get some help in 3d printing a triangular piano key to solve this)
In conclusion, I think that if you use your pinky a lot (i try to avoid this, hence autoshift) turning the keyboard might be more comfortable.
I'm definitely not done tweaking my layout /setup, but I'm generally going by the rule of thumb (heh :p) that the pinky is the weakest finger.
Interesting indeed - for me I think tab and backspace are going to trip this idea up - definitely will do some experimenting though!
I would love to see a mouse, roller ball, or pen/tablet incorporated into this shoulder ergonomic discussion. That’s where I suspect there might be an advantage to a plank keyboard over split (especially if you need to rearrange them with any frequency).
UHK with the thumb trackpoint or trackball is incredible, you don't have have to move your hands at all!
This is where I'm at right now.
have my pointing device on the left, keyboard in the middle, pen on the right. (I'm right handed but it's pretty easy to learn to use a mouse or trackball left handed)
Great video, I really enjoy your insight and thought processes on the various items in your videos.
Love the thorough analysis you do about ergonomics. I’m so nerdy about this stuff too. Subscribed! :)
Very nice demonstration. I can't wait to put my hands on the preonic or even the planck.
The advantage of a split keyboard is that you can put both halves together and use it as a fixed keyboard, or you can split it and set the halves at any angle you want. Try to do it with the fixed keyboard.
Oh my god! Thank you so much for going into detail about the way your fingers move. That was super useful in getting the keyboard in the right position for me!
Yes!! Been waiting for this perspective
Awesome stuff man, excited to see more.
It also depends on the ergonomics of your desk. If the distance from the shoulder to your desk is shorter than your shoulder to your elbow, you would tend to your elbows out, though giving need for the more "ergonomic" split. This is easy to test by changing the height of your chair / desk.
You encouraged me to angle out my ergodox a bit more. Thanks! This does feel better right away. I like split boards a lot. It didn't take me long to get used to it either, but that may be because I had already switched to the Colemak Mod DH keyboard layout so I already bent my mind in that way
Awesome!
This video was super helpful. Looking at some different split keyboards right now and I didn't realize how you were supposed to orient them. Great channel
Thanks! I actually make things look a bit extreme in this video. The main thing is to do what is comfortable and keeps everything neutral. There are some threads in the comments here that clarify things a bit further.
Hi Ben, thanks for the new vid, that’s an interesting take on the split boards! There is one thing that I think would be interesting to bring up though - tenting
I think that’s the thing that makes the world of difference if you have pain in your forearms, I would highly recommend reading about carpal tunnel syndrome to get more into it, but in a nutshell - having hands palms down parallel to the desk is not ideal, while having them with a bit of a vertical angle (i.e tenting) alleviates the pain entirely
Now of course tenting is not necessarily synonymous with split keyboards, but I would go as far as to say that people that buy split boards for ergonomics buy them almost solely because of tenting
Yes totally agree. I think tenting is really important for sure - I'm exploring a few ideas there as I think the tent on the Moonlander isn't enough to make as much of an impact as a more aggressive tent, especially if the thumb clusters are flat.
i’m absolutely in love with this channel
Such a kind comment - thanks!
I've been kinda dreaming of a split keyboard with a nice small trackpad that is controllable by your thumbs. just no shoulder movement necessary at all, and hopefully a faster and more direct connection with the computer
You did it Ben. Nice work.
Great perspective on the shoulders! I had not thought of that, and will probably experiment with spreading my Iris wider to see if that helps with backpain I have from time to time. I do, however, disagree a bit on the stuff to do with the wrists.
I agree and do think it is true that good posture can be had on any keyboard. The difference between keyboard types has more to do with how intuitive and comfortable that posture is, but it is totally possible to have good posture on any keyboard.
That said, look at 1:32. Your wrists are spreading outwards and it looks intuitive, but it is bad posture. You would need to extend even more to hit your backspace or escape key, and truly holding your fingers over the keyboard with your wrists straight has them at a bit of an angle, defeating the whole straight columns for straight fingers argument. With my hands, that angle would be even more pronounced, making ortholinear non split keyboards only slightly better than staggered for me personally. That is why symmetrical staggered boards exist such as the Katana60, because it is more intuitive to approach the keyboard at a symmetrical angle if the keys are to not be split in the middle.
And that is where my disagreement comes in. I think there is an ergonomic advantage at the wrist to split keyboards that ought not to be wrote off. The ability to twist and adjust the angle of both halves independently is a HUGE benefit to MY wrists anyway, as it allows me to angle the boards so that the intuitive position is the ergonomic one. Something an unsplit staggered OR ortho board could never do.
All of that said, thank the lord you are hovering your wrists and not using wrist rests. It peeves me to the end of the earth that SO MANY VIDEOS on youtube of people with split kbs have their wrists mounted on the desk twisted at horrible angles.
Keep up the great videos. :)
Very interesting video, thanks.. I’m currently using a Microsoft Sculpted keyboard, and while it helps with the wrists (for me) vs a standard keyboard, it definitely still has the same issues with my mid-back (as my chiropractor will testify!).
I have a part-built Helidox/Corne split keyboard I need to get finished - even more motivation now!
Can we appreciate that this man split his torso for the thumbnail?
You have very unique and interesting content. Keep it up. The number of people interested in keyboards are rocketing. So I'm sure you'll reserve your self a top seat in a coming competition of UA-cam genre.
Many thanks!
I have used split keyboards for 11 years, Kinesis Advantage Pro, TEK, ErgoDox EZ. This video matches perfectly my experience. It is not really that big deal, and your wrists are not as contorted as in most schematic figures, like Ben illustrated. Nowadays I use a Keychron K2 because I realized that, and while I prefer split everything else being equal, mechanical but wireless has higher priority for me today.
The new Dygma Defy ticks the wireless box (while being mechanical and split ofc).
One thing to mention is how split arms opens up your chest. There are conditions where one can develop chest pain or back pain because of the curling in that the shoulders are required to do in order to keep your hands close together. Everybody’s body is different so it comes down to what works for you.
Ergodox EZ is really awesome. I had serious ergonomic issues before I switched to the Ergodox EZ about 5 years ago now. I was getting numbness in the hands and back pain even with ergo keyboards. I started using the Ergodox EZS and now 12 hours of typing is incredibly comfortable. If you are a VIMMER this is a match made in heaven. I even have a "mouse mode" which is pretty much the same as the VIM cursor keys.
I used a laptop to type my three last books, and developed the worst kind of frozen shoulder to the point that I could not even raise my hand to shake hand with people. 15 years later, I still suffer and I wish at the time I had used a slipt keyboard. The wrists are more affected by prolonged use of a mouse. Using a vertical mouse like Logitech MX Vertical or Evoluent can help with that.
In 2016 after I started climbing at 45 climbing pointed out (with my new-found climbing partner that’s a chiropractor telling me plainly) that I had rounded shoulders from way too long of typing and other stuff with poor posture, so I needed to get physical therapy for my shoulders.
It’s going to likely take a few months and cost you whatever it is locally for you, but it’s absolutely worth the effort, time and money.
Great content, highly underrated
Thanks so much
Great video. But it's not the lats that pull your shoulder blades down, it's the lower trapezius
Ah ok I misunderstood that thanks for correction!
@@BenVallack Thanks for the vid. I almost bought one of these non-split "ergonomic" keyboards with keys rotated inwards, but you saved me.
Ha cheers! It's quite possible I'm getting it wrong but when I test it the only way for me to hit all keys without excessivly moving my whole hand is in the position I show here.
Great video and very insightful!
Regarding the anatomical side, you’re actually both right technically. Trapezius is far more involved in shoulder depression than the Latissimus Dorsi. However it is very common to have an insertion point on the inferior angle of the scapula for the Latissimus dorsi muscle, ergo it is involved in shoulder depression in *some* people just not everyone.
Also in regards to general health of the shoulder joint complex the Latissimus is extremely important as it does attach to the Humerus via the Intertubecular groove and as such any amounts of external and internal rotation will affect how much tension runs through that muscle so to speak.
Sources:
I’ve seen it in dissection
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3768243/
Grays anatomy books also refer to the inferior angle as an insertion point for the Latissimus.
Sorry for the ramble I just like anatomy lol
@@pierrepreston7827 Awesome thanks for the info!!
I love your lofi videos. Your channel gonna grow soon, Sir.
Thank you so much for the confidence!
@@BenVallack Welcome. Sending you lots of love & good luck from India.
One size doesn't fit all ... which is why that paint trick is so valuable. I have very broad shoulders ... and if I have a non-split keyboard, my wrists are turned to a bit of an extreme. Even with the halves split, I have the keyboard halves rotated inward where the video has them rotated outward.
Thank You Ben!
Using a split keyboard was the only way I got relief from numb fingers, caused by an entrapped ulnar nerve (cubital tunnel syndrome). The difference is subtle in a way, but has improved my computing life no end.
Great to hear!
Interesting video. I use split keyboard (Levinson at the moment), but I don't have it as far apart as your Moonlander. I have it only 10cm apart and twisted the opposite way - it's in V position. It does help me with the wrist position for me personally. Maybe I'm weird, but if I'm doing typeracer with normal keyboard, I do put my hands in 0:29 position if I want better WPM. Maybe not as drastically, but my wrists are not in neutral position.
I use my splitreus the same way
Fantastic videos
0:41 your wrist is neutral but then sneaks a little deviation in at 0:44
(Sorry for spam, I think your videos are fantastic - it's so great to see all this experimentation with different designs)
No problem appreciate the comments! Yeah agree it does look like that. Even on my split now though my wrists still adopt a slight deviation.
Hey can you make a video comparing kinesis advantage 2 vs moonlander please?
Also I don't know when but you can be on a look out for a new ortholinear model dygma lab raised keyboard (their youtube channel mentioned an ortholinear model may be released soon) and maybe compare that in the future as well?
they should make a planck that breaks at the center .... so you have options whether you're traveling or at your desk.
also I found one advantage to the planck is that since it's so small, you can improve your posture by placing it closer to you, which I think helps keep your shoulders from hunching forward as much.
the experience should be similar to how pianists play and posture their hands over the keys
You mean, the "let's split" or the "crdkb"?
@@JesusCliment yes but maybe some sort of way for the two parts to lock together when you're in a tight space
Hey, really nice job editing and shooting, in case you're short on compliments.
I think one argument for why wrist alignment is not as bad on your non-split keyboards is because of a very important fact: pinky fingers have less reach than index fingers.
When you put your fingers out to tough a horizontal line in front of you (the non-split keyboard) the wrists will mostly be neutrally aligned with the arm, as illustrated. But if fingers were all the same lengths, I do think wrists would crook in as per the theory you're disputing.
That leads to my fingerpaint-less way of aligning my keyboard.
I just decide how much "down and back" I want for my shoulders and back. Sometimes I don't want it so intense. This can lead to a pretty wide variation in how distant my keyboards are. The forearms do pivot radially from the elbow, so not different from your video.
Anyway, so I sit up right (sometimes). And put my hands on the table. Since the columns of the keyboard are parallel, and not radial, I keep my fingers parallel too, but neutral. And then I arrange my keyboard underneath such that my index fingers are above R and U. My pinkies are above Q and P. And my thumbs are above the first keys of the thumb cluster. My middle and ring fingers curl into position. And this is the top alpha row fully outreached. All fingers can naturally curl to the home row and one row below (I accept some hand lift for the top row).
It's an easy process. Generally hones in on a good position. And no need for messy, but colorful fingerpaints.
Enjoying the videos. Cheers!
Yes exactly, thanks for sharing your ideas!
Hey, interesting video! I am curious if you tried typing with the Moonlander keyboard in it's "proper" alignment? It seems you found your preferred angle to be the exact opposite of what is intended. Having the keyboard angled outwards like that would cause significant ulnar deviation, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a split keyboard in the first place.
Yep the problem with having it aligned for my figers is I can’t hit the top row with my little fingers. I’m not proposing you angle your wrists to achieve the outer angle, just to hover over the board at that angle, which actually works!
Its all in the shoulders, can confirm. I suffered from upper back pain when I was using a single standard mech keyboard. To fix this, I bought two fnatic mechanical keyboards. One of them has a 10key, the other doesn't. I position them end to end with the 10key on the right and a slight rotation so that they touch in the front corner but not in the rear corner. Just measured it, and this puts my left index finger 17 inches from my right index finger. It allows me to sit up straight with all the joints in a neutral position. I also built a custom wooden riser to get a negative incline, and I use the included wrist rests. Havn't had upper back pain since, despite spending 8+ hours at the computer every day. My only issue is finding the home row with so many keys, but individual LED backlighting lets me easily program visual light reminders. I've considered buying the Moonlander, but I'm so attached to my current setup that I can't justify the cost.
Awesome, thanks for sharing!
It would be kind of cool is those split ergonomic keyboards had the thinkpad trackpoint
I have a split and I tilt each half with the center-side downwards (the opposite as what he did at 2:10. It helps with both finger and wrist alignment. I thought that was the way to use them. What Ben is doin in the video will make my experience a lot worse than a convntional keyboard
Tx man for this video.
More than anything, I really like my split keyboard because of the tenting it feels much better for my elbows and forearms. Twisting the ulnar bone across the Radius bone in the forearm is a common reason for carpal tunnel in the elbow and wrist as our hands naturally sit in a vertical orientation not horizontal. Having the keys at a more vertical tilt is much more natural but is an impossible angle for a normal keyboard to sit at. As a programmer I do type a lot, and during college I always wondered why my forearms we're always so sore even though I tried my best to sit correctly at my keyboard. After switching to a split keyboard at a fairly sharp vertical angle it relieved a lot of tension in my firearms since I could then type without needing to twist them so much for a horizontal board.
Yeah definitely tenting is super comfy
At 3:09, you fixed your thumb in place and then pivoted your wrists about them.
This explains why you were finding the split keyboard so difficult; I've never used the Moonlander but it seems the thumb buttons are fixing your thumbs in place quite far away from the rest of the keys.
Really nice video.
I think foci of relevance lye in the arm/wrist rotation. Perhaps even more important than the shoulder issue. With a split keyboard you can tilt either side separately. Also good for people with a kind of disability.
The other thought goes, we are not built the same. Thinking of that, a split keyboard makes sense as in you would be able to adjust per your body size and type.
Other than that, great video.
Yes I was just going to say this. For me it's much more about the angle of the two sides and bring able to control that separately. When I bend my elbows 90 degrees, my palms (a) don't naturally face the table and (b) don't naturally want to be at the same angle. So for me, being able to tent each side at a different angle is key. I also find that I want different angles when standing than when sitting.
Wasn't I subscribed? Well, I really enjoy how you keep coming up with ideas related to this topic, weird you haven't come across with something like the corne and give your opinion about it.
Would love to try it!
@@BenVallack the corne and the lily58 are well regarded in latin america because they are really affordable if you compare them to the moonlander in price and are fully programmable through qmk, also, some websites offee assembly services for them, it is amazing.
Good explanation.
Amazing cinematography! 🔥
Curious - have you noticed (or know) if the benefits (such as alleviating shoulder pain) of having an ortholinear split keyboard with a QWERTY layout are still significant?
Thanks! I'm not sure how much impact the layout might have on ergonomics. The main benefit is coming from the split I would say. Staying on qwerty wont take away from that.
@@BenVallackAwesome, I appreciate your response!
What do you think of keyboards with Alice/Arisu style layouts? Does that help with ergo at all based on your elbow pivot theory?
Hey Ben,
I think I watched all of your keyboard videos and I really appreciate them, good quality and really informative!
Did you ever consider getting a Levinson or an Ergo Travel keyboard? They're kinda like a combination of the Moonlander/Ergodox and your Planck:)
Ha yeah would love to try that! I've always thought a ‘split Planck’ would be a good format!
@@BenVallack Earlier this month after watching your videos, I thought of a 40%-like split Planck EZ and Moonlander hybrid with a thumb cluster and a few additional features. It would be great if Ergodox offered such a product because its software appears to be user-friendly and their hardware well crafted. Therefore I emailed them asking if they had considered creating such a 40%-like split Planck EZ and Moonlander hybrid split ergonomic keyboard and suggested the following additional features.
Include sculpted keycaps on the thumb clusters and readjust the position of the clusters in such a keyboard (drawing from this video: ua-cam.com/video/pyhYkA3nPys/v-deo.html). Ergodox seems to have done that to some extent with the Moonlander by allowing the angle of the thumb clusters to be adjusted, but removing the legs really minimizes the versatility of the tilting/tenting.
Add Bluetooth connectivity to allow users to toggle between Macs, iPhones, and iPads with the quick press of a button. This would make the keyboard far more versatile, as would making the keyboard wireless if feasible; hardly novel ideas.
Lastly, replace the arrow keys with blanks because most people will reconfigure the arrows anyway. The blank keys, when moved around, could be confused for “minus” signs or dashes and hyphens. Replacing the blank keys with square or circular cutouts could solve that issue and had the additional advantage of allowing more of the backlight to shine through.
In response, Ergodox email that "We don't have any of these particular things on our roadmap currently, but who knows what the future might bring? :)"
@@avgsoul Interesting! Thanks for sharing!
ok, well i was stunned to see that with your arms at an angle, from your shoulders to the keyboard, and your hands in line with your arms, when you extend your fingers, they are moving perpenidicular to your body. When I extend my fingers, they align pretty well with the staggered keyboard layout, so for example, my index finger goes from U J M in line. Stange.
great video thank you
0:29 I don't imagine doing that. I actually type like that on a horizontally straight board, and yes IT HURTS, so that is why i need a split one, or just a one-piece keyboard with two differently angle parts (actually now I'm using a ZSA Moonlander though). Maybe my joints are differently connected than yours I don't know.
So yeah the answer to whether or not a split keyboard will help you depends on how you use a straight one.
Could put that piece in a gallery.
Oppression of the Modern Man - Finger Painting - A4 White - Ben Vallack 2020.
Great video!
Lol
Great vid! I've been using split keeb for a few months and always wonder why I didn't the benefit on the wrist as I thought it would. Also, it turn out I positioned the sides inward instead of outward, thinking they're more in line to my elbows. So I didn't see any benefit to my back either.
Definitely going to try twisting it out and see if it gets better for me. Thanks!
Wait, it should be inward right ? Doing it outward just make your hand more open. It really depends on the your hand position really. If you like it to be closed to your body than it should be inward, if you open arm or away from your body than outward should be the most comfy position.
Basically follow where your hand pointing right ?
I love your channel
The split gives more freedom of movement. I wouldn't have said typing so far apart would work for me as where does the mouse go? =) subbed though coz I love your content!
Well I think the main problem comes with normal size keyboards that many people use.
For example I use full size keyboards and I have notice that I don’t have any problem typing in the letters keys but when it comes that I need to use the arrow keys, numb pad, action keys such as delete, insert, etc then I tend to break the angle of my wrist in order to hit that key and doing that everyday it is starting to be harmful or at least for me and split keyboard can stop you on doing that because everything is within reach of your hand
Finally I found a solution to the weird uncomfortable feeling of using my Moonlander! lol. Thank you. Just needed to rotate it out a bit more. How do you comfortably float your wrists though? Mine tend to get tired shortly after doing so.
Yay! Yeah I’m totally used to hover typing now. I think it is significant in avoiding strain. I think it helps to keep your hands quite high, with good space under hand. Also much easier if you use a 36 key layout so you never loose your home position.
What mouse/trackpad do you use and recommend for ergonomics? Would love to hear your input
very interesting video ! could you review ergonomic mice as well ? like the ones with a trackball
Yeah I might well start exploring those - I'm finding the trackpad a bit of a pain due to needing a flat hand all the time.
@@BenVallack The Logitech MX Master 3 and the MX Vertical are the main ones I'd be curious in your opinions on.
@@Kvantum yeah exactly where I’d start too so think. Feel free to email them and suggest they send me some to test heh.
mx ergo is great, i'm using and it reduced my pain significantly :)
@@Kvantum ua-cam.com/video/0AfAmKg3CP4/v-deo.html&ab_channel=PhillipKova it's been reviewed vs. the anker vertical. I think the anker vertical is much better value
Ben you say that your tendency is to NOT bend your wrists outward when typing on the Planck, but then the video shows that you are bending your wrists outward, perhaps just not to the extreme degree that you illustrated initially. It's just not possible to keep your wrists straight and flat on a keyboard that is so dramatically smaller than your shoulder width. This problem is worse the broader your shoulders.
They appear bent out in a few shots where I'm moving my fingers around but when I'm typing my wrists remain neutral to my forearms and that is what also makes for the most efficient motion of my fingertips to reach the keys. So much so its the best angle when split too.
So, after going down all these rabbit holes, what would be your recommendation purely for ergonomics if portability is not a concern? Especially regarding the addition of a mouse/trackpad/pointing device? As much as I love seeing your quest for ultimate portability and the optimal keyboard layout, I find myself mostly in the same place and - if on the move with my laptop - just can't see myself pulling out an external keyboard sporting that layout :)
I’m really happy with my 18 key split setup mounted on tripod stands actually. You can see it here ua-cam.com/users/shortsJDH74yeRFQE?feature=share will be doing a more detailed video in due course
It's worth noting that thumb clusters work a lot better on split keyboards. It doesn't direct make them better but split kb = thumb cluster = good
Hey Ben, I use a split keyboard - why? My collarbone is quiet huge and I have to veer my wrist fairly hard to use any keyboard with normal normal layout
Ah! I got my Moonlander but I was still using the 2 halves fairly close to each other. Now I put them far apart and this does feel nicer!
Is it niiiice? It looks niiiice.
Something I noticed when using my standard row-staggered keyboard is I rest my hands close together on the palm rest, but stick my elbows out/relax my shoulders so my wrists remain straight, which I find mostly comfortable. Although I end up fat-fingering two keys sometimes because I don't even try to touch type, I just look down at my keyboard so I know where all the keys are. Do you think I should get a split column-staggered keyboard, or would I benefit from something as simple as an alice layout?
Prioritize learning to touch type and free floating your wrist then the wrong fingering disappears and an alice layout keyboard would make sense. A split keyboard is even harder to type with your inefficient typing method and the ortholinear columns actually shrinks the available space between keys. It is something you advance and evolve to eventually not start with. There are fan-shaped column layouts if you have particularly girthy fingers.
- this has been keyboarding support by the five-fold senior typing champion of Hungary
I don't own an actual split keyboard *yet*, but my initial interest in them indeed comes from suffering from quite frequent shoulder pain after a day of work. I'm sure there's tons of other things that are awful about how I sit in front of a desk (I'm very fidgety when sitting down and constantly shuffle into different positions), but it seems like a split keyboard might also help set a good baseline position that you can return to because they're so flexible to set up. I'm still a little on the fence because many of these boards are so incredibly expensive though.
ua-cam.com/video/UKfeJrRIcxw/v-deo.html affordable option here
The biggest difference is actually in the forearms because of the keyboard incline. When your hands are flat, the bones in your forearm overlap and rub against each other which can cause pain over time. The angle of the incline of the keyboard can really help with this.
Yeah that’s more the tenting rather than the split itself, I am a big fan of the tenting! ua-cam.com/video/oGQhiURh6Tw/v-deo.html
this may be a very odd question but can I ask your hand size? I'm really interested in getting the moonlander but I want to make sure I'll be able to make full use of the thumb cluster comfortably while typing and gaming. Thanks.
I'm a large in all the gloves I have. Anything but the first and maybe second piano keys are quite a stretch in full tent mode. Easier with raised thumb clusters but then you loose the tent.
@@BenVallack Awesome, thank you.
when I was using a straight keyboard, I did twist my wrists a bit. I got a microsoft ergonomic-the one with an integrated wrist rest and a kind of hump shape in the middle-and the wrist pain I'd been having went away.
so, the difference is that while my forearms angle inward in both cases, with the microsoft one, my wrists are neutral.
I'm extremely dissatisfied with this keyboard (not for the shape, though), and looking to change-which is why I'm here-but I thought it was interesting that you could type at all on a straight keyboard with your wrists neutral.
Yeah since making this video I have figure out the real issue is how long your little fingers are. I have to have my hands at such an angle over the board to be able to reach the upper little finger keys.
@@BenVallack
that makes sense. I've been thinking of trying to do a Ferris Sweep, so maybe I should make a paper mockup of it, and see if the positions of the keys fit my little fingers.
How would you use a mouse or mouse alternative ergonomically with a split keyboard?
As one who own this split keyboard, i'm still trying to find out the most ergonomic way to use a mouse. I've seen some people put the mouse inbetween the keyboards but I'm not sure if that's actually ergonomic.currently i just move one half closer to the other half when i know i have to do a lot of mouse action.
I use a trackpad in the middle. It does feel more of a pain to use with a split though which is something I cover in my Moonlander review. Mouse mode works well though - checkout the other video I have on that!
would this possibly suggest something along the lines of:
1. for split keyboard, staggered layout is good.
2. for regular keyboard, ortholinear layout is good
3:45 never in my life I thought I’ll be witnessing discussion on lats and keyboard usage 😅
Oh yeah!
With my split keyboard, I generally don’t spread them far apart. I usually just make them angle inwards or a few inches apart. I’d say no real ergonomic advantage, but more of a preference of if you want to have more disconnect or want to have room in between. From my experience, the ergonomic advantage you can gain from a split is essentially the same as having a keyboard with a layout similar to the tgr alice. If you game a lot, you could remove half of the board from your desk, but I found that a pain to do too often so I don’t.
Yeah I was a bit wider that normal in this video - I still mix it up a bit though. Thanks for your comments!
@@BenVallack Yeah, I feel like the main advantage to split keyboards is the freedom that it gives you to position it where ever. A split keyboard I actually would like to try personally would be the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard once they finish developing all of the additional modules since that seems to be an interesting keyboard. With the trackball, track pad, or track point modules that they're developing, you could effectively not use a mouse at all which might actually have some ergonomics or productivity benefits to it.
@@Conno422 Yeah I really agree that a built in trackball or similar would go a long way to making a split keyboard work much better. Will keep an eye out for that keyboard. Thanks!
@@BenVallack I'd probably note though that it comes with a rather large premium, even for split/ergo keyboards. On its own it's 275 USD and each additional module is 60 USD. that would make having a thumb module a minimum of 335 USD. Compared to customs, it's not too much, but for a prebuild that uses non-premium (just standard Kailh and Kailh box) switches it's quite a lot when if you're just going for switches, there's prebuilds that are definitely better. The only things that really distinguishes this keyboard apart from other split keyboards are the modules that aren't included with the already existing price premium. If you decide to review it, it's probably best to consider the modules and the value that you'd gain from the modules.
The other keyboard that I can think of that's comparable to the modules, it'd be the Tex Yoda 2 custom keyboard from Originative that has a trackpoint like the ThinkPads, but isn't split. The for this one is 269 USD, but doesn't include the switches, though it does include keycaps. The availability for that keyboard is a little inconsistent as it is a custom. If you want to try that it, you could give it ago, but that would also have you start approaching the custom mechanical keyboard community.
TaeKeyboards I believe has a review or video covering a prebuilt keyboard that's modeled after the ThinkPad as well, and that might be worth more of your attention than the custom keyboard.
Sorry for getting really nerdy here. I wouldn't particularly call myself an expert for keyboards, so you could take what I say as you wish.
think a split keyboard could have a lot of options
i frequently pulls my keyboard to the left for left-handed use and then tries to use it with both hands which doesn't end well if it's not centered enough, or if i'm too close to my keyboard i end up bending my wrist all wrong, think split keyboards or two keyboards could be able to work around that. haven't seen any good ones though.
Your music is the best. Is it free to use in videos? How do you source it?
Thanks :) It's from Artlist - here's a referral link: artlist.io/Ben-572654
@@BenVallack Thanks
Having a split keyboard like that, would it make sense to go one step further and get some ergonomic furniture or something? Or maybe attach the halves to the arms of your armchair?
For sure!
am thinking about to buy the ez, trying to select the colour and also googling around for Swedish keyboard.
If you learn how to touch type then you can buy the kb with blank or English keycaps. And also write faster. And more ergonomically.
@@karlgiese6100 haha yeah mate, i have one with backglow at the moment, in the end it turned out that i got myself a planck and the ez. they are really nice keyboards.
Where do you place your mouse when using one of these boards?
In the middle or just above or to the right of the right half. I use a trackpad though.
Mainly though I try and avoid using the mouse, use mouse mode on the keyboard and shortcuts instead for as much as possible.
Does anyone know about the mouse position? I have one hand on my mouse most of the time during work. Is the mouse in the middle of the keyboard?
Yep middle is a good place for it
I think the advantage is not the alpha, its the thumb expand that allow for buttons that are hard to hit normally without leaving position like function and backspace...
There is a missing point here; split keyboards can be tilted.
This makes a huge difference for people that have that pronator teres pinching the nerve when wrists are kept horizontal.
yep tenting is for sure a big deal
I personally find split keyboard way more comfortable to type on and can type on a split keyboard for longer period of time
Interesting video. I like your use of the paint. I disagree though with what you say about the angle of your wrists on the traditional small keyboard. I can even see your wrists angled more on the small keyboard when you are not focusing on wrist angle later in the video. In my opinion, an ergonomic keyboard relieves tension in the wrist. In fact, the small keyboard you use will quickly inflame my wrists; I would not recommend those keyboards to anyone.
If you put the split keyboard that far apart, where do you keep your mouse? In the middle?
Yep!
He uses a track pad I think.
A lot of people use a trackball in the middle.
Hey Ben, I would like to mention a couple things which I dont understand.
The way you put the moonlander doesnt make sense at all mate, who types like that?
also yea you are right when you say you can get used to the posture required to type on the planck but why would you adjust yourself to something less comfort?
coming from a moonlander, I dont see how I can write on that small keeb, even if it's ortho.. I would still have to close my chest and have that shoulder movement again which can only lead to shoulder pain.
I don't really understand your comparison here but maybe i am the weird guy and every moonlander owner places his keeb as you do.
would love to hear your thoughts about it mate.
I tend to have my halves closer than I did in this video now. There is definitely some comfort in going super wide from time to though. Basically the wider you go the more the halves need to rotate, the question is how much that should be. And that comes down to finger length and column stagger to a great extent.
@@BenVallack
I appreciate the answer. May I know what keeb are you using as your daily driver? (is it that still the 34 or 36 keys you built?)
@@heeku_ This one: ua-cam.com/video/0d8mjsVgk1k/v-deo.html
I think you should do quite the opposite. You should keep your hands rotated inwards not outwards. By rotating your hands outwards you might put even more stress to your shoulders/elbows/wrists? Idk I'm not physiotherapist, but if you look at ergo keyboards there is a pattern and there should be a reason for it. Google up some images of ergo keyboars eg. Logitech ERGO K860, Micosoft ergo keyboards, X-Bows
They're all close together, I agree if your hands are that close you would want them that way in favour of them being like a fixed board. As soon as you get out to shoulder width though that angle is the other way as far as I can see.
@@BenVallack You are probably right, the angle depends on distance btween those two keyboard parts. I tried sitting for a while in this position where hands are further away and tilted outwards, but to me it feels really uncomfortable and almost immediately I felt tension in my elbows and shoulders. But Idk, it might be because my body isn't use to it, or maybe it isn't ergonomic. Whatever the answer is, I think we can agree one of advantages of split keyboard is that you can try many configurations and that is really cool
What is the name of the track in the intro?? Can anyone please tell me?
It’s a good one isn’t it! It’s somewhere on Artlist - let me know if you can’t find it and I’ll dig out the timeline and find out what it was.
@@BenVallack tried to shazam but returned with nothing.... Please dig it Ben
What you do on 00:31 is almost the same on 01:23. Wrists always are under stress on classic "typewriter" keyboard. These standards were created 150 years ago.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:33 🖐️ Using a standard keyboard, it's more comfortable to keep your wrists neutral and your hands resting naturally while typing.
01:02 🖥️ Ortholinear keyboards, like the Planck EZ, help maintain a consistent hand position and make typing without wrist strain easier.
01:39 🔀 When using a split keyboard, the wrist angle remains similar to a standard keyboard, but it allows for a more natural alignment of fingers with the keyboard columns.
03:30 💪 The advantage of a split keyboard lies in its impact on the shoulders and back, as it encourages better posture and engagement of the lats, making it more comfortable for extended use.
04:54 🧘♂️ With conscious effort, you can maintain good posture and engage your shoulders and back even with a standard keyboard, but a split keyboard makes it more natural and comfortable to do so.
Made with HARPA AI
Woah!
2:48 You're not just opening and closing your hands. You're moving your whole forearms forwards and backwards. If you just expanded your fingers, they would move like that: /\ if you had your palms close together, like that: || if you had them farther away and nlike that \/ if you had them really far apart.
I think you are missing a point here: it is not really about how far away the keyboard parts are, but the verticality: how tilted they are. You used a flat Moonlander. What it is supposed to do is more like the Microsoft Natural Keyboards from back in the day or the modern sculpted one. Same effect like an ergonomic / horizontal mouse.
I agree that is a very serious part of the ergonomics - I will be looking at it in another video. The column to finger-angle is a pretty interesting area though. I think once you start using the little finger properly it forces you to use them like this, so the argument is possibly that not using all the fingers is causing excessive wrist bending for many people on fixed keyboards.
is arisu/alice layout more comfortable than regular board?
I would skip those row−staggered layouts completely and go for a columnar or ortholinear board.
@@BenVallack thanks for the headsup
was looking at the wings a lot recently
i guess i will hold off the purchase
I don't know what you do but my blades are not moving when I move hands in horizontal direction in front of body.
Also do not use so tiny keyboards. Hands on regular sized keyboard is much wider than on yours.
Why would you use an ergo facing your sides? I use mine pointed in.
Beauty of these is you can use them how you like - but I've found the least amount of finger movement/effort occurs when your hands are aligned as I show here.
I thought the idea was to have the arms more or less parallel, not splayed outwards.
Interesting.