Yes I couldn’t agree more!! To me, the concept of photons being able to interact with such simple chemicals (Cyanotype, Silver Halide, etc.) and literally cause chemical reactions that leave behind images is SO FASCINATING!!! Ever since I learned about how the chemistry behind film photography works about 2-3 years ago, the idea of making my own photographic paper or film has been something I’ve dreamed about doing. Except I never tried to until recently because I had just assumed it wouldn’t work and it couldn’t be so simple, BUT IT IS!!! It’s literally that simple!
Results are very impressive, I bet you'll have fun exploring other alternative photography processes. Personally I've done potassium bichromate+gelatine and I've heard this can even be done with egg whites instead of gelatine. This process is (I think) suitable for holograms as well. Just be warned - potassium bichromate is literally cancer so wear gloves.
So when you mention gelatin, you’re talking about glass/plate cyanotypes right? Or is the gelatin being used on paper similar to Silver Halide photographic papers? Anyways, I *was* briefly looking over alternatives; learned about an apparently improved version of this cyanotype process which uses Ferric Ammonium Oxalate instead of Citrate, thing is that it also requires Potassium Dichromate. But as you said, the dichromate is super toxic, and even though I wouldn’t mind using it since it’s only needed in very tiny quantities, it’s the increased overall toxicity that sort of takes away from the fun because of the increased attention to safety that’s required. I wanna try making Silver Halides and making/coating a gelatin emulsion with it. I bought all the chemicals needed 2 years ago but kept doubting if I’d be able to do it. I had got some silver nitrate and Potassium Iodide, Bromide, and Chloride, basically all the halogen salts used for photography.
@@KeonsLabI've googled it and believe the proper term for the process I was talking about is "gum bichromate" printing, since you're supposed to use gum Arabic, but gelatine works too. The key is that bichromate crosslinks proteins making them insoluble so exposed gelatine becomes non-water soluble and the rest washes away during development in water. The advantage is that you add your own pigments and can do color prints this way through several layers
Oh wow so not only is the gelatin becoming non water-soluble interesting on its own. But you’re saying that by using multiple layers (of I’m assuming colour dyed gelatin) that slides/washes off during development a colour image can be achieved? That sounds kinda similar to how ordinary colour film works in principle. Or am I totally misunderstanding your comment 😅
@@KeonsLabYeah, basically. You get three negatives in CMY(or CMYK if you're fancy, or any other colors if you want to be artistic about it) and do the process for each negative on the same print but using gelatine with different pigment each time. You make the gelatine, add pigment, sensitize with bichromate, cover paper with it, dry, expose, develop and repeat for each color. In the end you'll get layers of differently colored gelatine on a single sheet of paper forming your image
Oh I see, manually building up the layers of different colours for a colour image, it’s so simple yet ingenious at the same time! So fascinating how rich the history of photography is. I have no doubt this process of manually layering the colours influenced at least in some way the invention of modern C-41 colour film Sometimes I like to imagine how exciting it must’ve been at the time when photography became available to the masses. Being able to for the first time, carry a device that could record reality, in your pocket. Combine that with all the other progress in everything from lighting, to transport, to energy storage/batteries; it’s not wonder when we look back at media produced during those years we sense an optimism for the future in the air. I think that no matter how much time passes, humanity’s rapid transitioning period from the ‘old ways of life’ into the modern technological era will forever be fascinating.
Very high quality and educational! I wish my school did a lab like this. It would only take like 3 days of my semester. Came from your YT short if you remember. Also, you remind me of Nile Red. And a big tip to get viewer retention up is to add music. I was very intrigued in this so it was fine for me, but for less interested people it may be a flaw. Other than that, very cool!
Wow what an amazing comment, thanks! And I totally agree with you about this being done for school labs; the only reason I felt confident enough to try developing my own B&W film a couple years ago was because we had a darkroom in my high school where I developed my first ever analog photo.
One of the best comments so far, I’m so glad my video was so inspiring to you!! You are going to *love* the process of starting from raw materials and ending up with an actual photographic print. The chemicals used are relatively non toxic and aren’t corrosive or anything, but just please make sure to take safety precautions such as wearing protective eyewear, preferably wearing either a sanding mask, N-_9_5 mask (did that for the algorithm), or a particulate respirator when handling the powdered ferric ammonium citrate as it can be irritating. Also just a lil tip: the ferric ammonium citrate has to be the ‘green’/‘green flake’ kind to work properly
Hey why did you put the vinegar in the first bath I didn't hear maybe you said in the video but maybe I missed that part. Thanks for the comprehensive guide I've done some cyanotype myself and yours turned out real nice. I'm a first time viewer so you got me hooked hahah
I added it because the tap water tested a little basic when I used pH strips, but mostly because I noticed it gives slightly crisper images despite being so diluted that I wouldn’t expect it to. But if it works it works! At first I thought it was just a “placebo” or something, but I added 4mL to the 3.6L one time and it clearly made a difference. Now how much of that is due to the variable amount of sensitizer each sheet gets and how it was exposed, I can’t tell for sure.
Can you link the light you're using? I've been working on and off trying to convert a dark room enlarger into a cyanotype printer and the cob you're using has the specs I need
The actual assembly of the fan and voltage regulator I put together myself using AliExpress parts, but if you’re just looking for the specs of the COB, here they are: 100W COB (24-38V DC, 3000mA in CC mode) Colour Rendering Index: ~73 Colour Temperature: Daylight White 6500K Lens Angle: 120° Hope this helps
Technically you should be able to just change the enlarger bulb for a UV one as long as you still get difused (soft enough) light it should work I actually think about doing this myself as a cheaper and easyer way to print 35mm films
Like without a negative, just putting stuff on the paper and exposing it? Definitely! That’s actually a type of art that some people do by putting stuff like fern leaves and stuff on the paper and exposing it to make cool prints.
@@KeonsLab You could either put the paper directly under the sun, but I think they were (well, I am now...) wondering if you could expose the paper as the film (behind a lens, pin hole camera, etc.).
@dotanberger1025 I am not the person that you asked but it is in essence a photographic paper like any other, so yes, I believe that you can put it behind a camera obscura and get an image of reality.
So I was actually wondering this myself too, so here you go: F.A.C after tax: $46.17 for 100g = $0.4617 / g 10mL of each chemical solution needed for 3 sheets 22.5% w/v F.A.C and 9% w/v P.F.C: 2.25g F.A.C needed per 10mL Price for 2.25g = $1.039 / 10mL Which equals $0.346 / sheet for chemical 1 P.F.C after tax: 12.84/40g = $0.321/g 0.9g needed for 10mL = $0.289/10mL Which equals $0.096 / sheet for chemical 2. Paper was $1.75 for 40 sheets, so after Canadian taxes it’s $0.049/sheet for the paper. Water cost is assumed to be free. (It’s 99cents per gallon (4L) of distilled water here so the price is negligible. So the total cost per print is: $0.491 (CAD) / sheet if I didn’t get my math wrong.
Yeah I’ll try to find one, there was a really good website with an excerpt from a textbook about the basic process and history but the link is dead due to an “Apache server error” or something! BUT there’s a good chance I downloaded the pdf at some point since I remember highlighting text in Adobe Acrobat, so if I find it I’ll leave a google drive link and if not I’ll find another source. If I couldn’t find anything then I’ll make my own website and make better instructions than any of the sites even before their links went down. So don’t worry guys, I’m gonna make sure everyone can experience this amazing process. If I forget to edit this comment, send me an email
Apparently you actually can! I’m thinking of 3D printing a pinhole camera and trying to see if I can get any kind of true photographs with the cyanotype paper. It’d be so awesome if it actually ends up working.
Potassium Ferrocyanide is not benign, whear gloves if you are doing much of this. A friend got cyanide poisoning from doing large blue prints, a mild case but.... Try to find a contact printing frame, saves the sharp glass issues, you can also get a glass company to sand the edges on thicker glass. I have have used 1000 watt tungsten lights for exposure, exposure is 3-5 minutes, LCD panels may work, haven't tried that.
You’re talking about during the rinsing process right? Yeah if I was making these on a regular basis, especially if in large quantities and sizes, I’d 100% wear gloves no doubt, probably a respirator as well just to be safe. The water in the first rinsing bath when I was draining it had a not insignificant yellow-green colour to it, and it definitely had enough sensitizer in it to leave blue stains where a couple drops fell… so I can totally see how repeated exposure could mildly poison someone. Do you know for sure if it was cyanide poisoning? Because the cyanide group in potassium ferrocyanide/ferricyanide isn’t free to be absorbed/released like that unless in specific conditions. The other chemical used, however, Ferric Ammonium Citrate, *is* quite a bit more hazardous (especially in powder form), so maybe it’s possible he got the mild poisoning from that instead? I PROMISE I’m not *just* trying to correct you and be that guy who’s always like “🤓Well Actually…”, I just want people reading it to know I wasn’t at risk of cyanide poisoning or that it’s a super dangerous process or something.
@@KeonsLab She was doing some extreme stuff, full body prints and such, sensitizing 2x7 ft sheets of fabric. Her boy friend noticed she was always tired and finally got her to go to an ER, they diagnosed cyanide poisoning. They did some sort of treatment and she stopped working with blue prints. The symptoms went away. On the level you are working there is very little chance of poisoning but it is not 0, I'd just wear gloves. Have to say I was doing gum bichromate printing before the the stuff came out about the cancer info on bichromates came out. Yes I was sizing the paper with gelatin and formaldehyde. I wore gloves most of the time...
Hi Keon's Lab, my name is Johnny and I'm a freelance logo designer, would you love to have a memorable logo for your channel that represent your direction to help your branding easier for your audience to know where to look for you and to attract more new viewers and subscribers too, and potentially also custom membership badges, wallpaper and app icons packs and any kind of artworks to help scale up your business opportunities and fanbase too? Let me know if you interested and I would love to craft them for you! :-)
Why do I do the topping it off thing? Since when adding the chemicals, the volume increases a bit, and this ensures you’ll always end up with the exact volume desired.
Fascinating process. I love the idea of light-sensitive paper.
Yes I couldn’t agree more!! To me, the concept of photons being able to interact with such simple chemicals (Cyanotype, Silver Halide, etc.) and literally cause chemical reactions that leave behind images is SO FASCINATING!!!
Ever since I learned about how the chemistry behind film photography works about 2-3 years ago, the idea of making my own photographic paper or film has been something I’ve dreamed about doing.
Except I never tried to until recently because I had just assumed it wouldn’t work and it couldn’t be so simple, BUT IT IS!!! It’s literally that simple!
Results are very impressive, I bet you'll have fun exploring other alternative photography processes. Personally I've done potassium bichromate+gelatine and I've heard this can even be done with egg whites instead of gelatine. This process is (I think) suitable for holograms as well. Just be warned - potassium bichromate is literally cancer so wear gloves.
So when you mention gelatin, you’re talking about glass/plate cyanotypes right? Or is the gelatin being used on paper similar to Silver Halide photographic papers?
Anyways, I *was* briefly looking over alternatives; learned about an apparently improved version of this cyanotype process which uses Ferric Ammonium Oxalate instead of Citrate, thing is that it also requires Potassium Dichromate.
But as you said, the dichromate is super toxic, and even though I wouldn’t mind using it since it’s only needed in very tiny quantities, it’s the increased overall toxicity that sort of takes away from the fun because of the increased attention to safety that’s required.
I wanna try making Silver Halides and making/coating a gelatin emulsion with it.
I bought all the chemicals needed 2 years ago but kept doubting if I’d be able to do it.
I had got some silver nitrate and Potassium Iodide, Bromide, and Chloride, basically all the halogen salts used for photography.
@@KeonsLabI've googled it and believe the proper term for the process I was talking about is "gum bichromate" printing, since you're supposed to use gum Arabic, but gelatine works too. The key is that bichromate crosslinks proteins making them insoluble so exposed gelatine becomes non-water soluble and the rest washes away during development in water. The advantage is that you add your own pigments and can do color prints this way through several layers
Oh wow so not only is the gelatin becoming non water-soluble interesting on its own. But you’re saying that by using multiple layers (of I’m assuming colour dyed gelatin) that slides/washes off during development a colour image can be achieved?
That sounds kinda similar to how ordinary colour film works in principle.
Or am I totally misunderstanding your comment 😅
@@KeonsLabYeah, basically. You get three negatives in CMY(or CMYK if you're fancy, or any other colors if you want to be artistic about it) and do the process for each negative on the same print but using gelatine with different pigment each time. You make the gelatine, add pigment, sensitize with bichromate, cover paper with it, dry, expose, develop and repeat for each color. In the end you'll get layers of differently colored gelatine on a single sheet of paper forming your image
Oh I see, manually building up the layers of different colours for a colour image, it’s so simple yet ingenious at the same time!
So fascinating how rich the history of photography is. I have no doubt this process of manually layering the colours influenced at least in some way the invention of modern C-41 colour film
Sometimes I like to imagine how exciting it must’ve been at the time when photography became available to the masses. Being able to for the first time, carry a device that could record reality, in your pocket.
Combine that with all the other progress in everything from lighting, to transport, to energy storage/batteries; it’s not wonder when we look back at media produced during those years we sense an optimism for the future in the air.
I think that no matter how much time passes, humanity’s rapid transitioning period from the ‘old ways of life’ into the modern technological era will forever be fascinating.
Very high quality and educational! I wish my school did a lab like this. It would only take like 3 days of my semester. Came from your YT short if you remember. Also, you remind me of Nile Red. And a big tip to get viewer retention up is to add music. I was very intrigued in this so it was fine for me, but for less interested people it may be a flaw. Other than that, very cool!
Wow what an amazing comment, thanks!
And I totally agree with you about this being done for school labs;
the only reason I felt confident enough to try developing my own B&W film a couple years ago was because we had a darkroom in my high school where I developed my first ever analog photo.
Please don't add music!!! @zgamer1146 If you want music playing just run Spotify etc that way you can pick your own track.
I loved every single bit of the video :DD It really encouraged me to develop my own photos ❤
One of the best comments so far, I’m so glad my video was so inspiring to you!!
You are going to *love* the process of starting from raw materials and ending up with an actual photographic print.
The chemicals used are relatively non toxic and aren’t corrosive or anything, but just please make sure to take safety precautions such as wearing protective eyewear, preferably wearing either a sanding mask, N-_9_5 mask (did that for the algorithm), or a particulate respirator when handling the powdered ferric ammonium citrate as it can be irritating.
Also just a lil tip: the ferric ammonium citrate has to be the ‘green’/‘green flake’ kind to work properly
@@KeonsLab Thank you so, so much for the advice! I'm a begginer so every bit of help is priceless. I wish you a beautiful day 🥰
Very cool! Any plans to follow up developing masks with copper etching? Seems you're halfway to DIY PCBs.
Hmm, very interesting idea… I’ll look into it, but DIY PCB etching I’ll definitely be doing at some point point
Cool!
😁
Hey why did you put the vinegar in the first bath I didn't hear maybe you said in the video but maybe I missed that part. Thanks for the comprehensive guide I've done some cyanotype myself and yours turned out real nice. I'm a first time viewer so you got me hooked hahah
I added it because the tap water tested a little basic when I used pH strips, but mostly because I noticed it gives slightly crisper images despite being so diluted that I wouldn’t expect it to.
But if it works it works! At first I thought it was just a “placebo” or something, but I added 4mL to the 3.6L one time and it clearly made a difference. Now how much of that is due to the variable amount of sensitizer each sheet gets and how it was exposed, I can’t tell for sure.
Can you link the light you're using? I've been working on and off trying to convert a dark room enlarger into a cyanotype printer and the cob you're using has the specs I need
The actual assembly of the fan and voltage regulator I put together myself using AliExpress parts, but if you’re just looking for the specs of the COB, here they are:
100W COB (24-38V DC, 3000mA in CC mode)
Colour Rendering Index: ~73
Colour Temperature: Daylight White 6500K
Lens Angle: 120°
Hope this helps
Technically you should be able to just change the enlarger bulb for a UV one as long as you still get difused (soft enough) light it should work I actually think about doing this myself as a cheaper and easyer way to print 35mm films
can you dodge and burn during the exposure like you can during development of film?
Can you expose directly to the paper?
Like without a negative, just putting stuff on the paper and exposing it? Definitely!
That’s actually a type of art that some people do by putting stuff like fern leaves and stuff on the paper and exposing it to make cool prints.
@@KeonsLab You could either put the paper directly under the sun, but I think they were (well, I am now...) wondering if you could expose the paper as the film (behind a lens, pin hole camera, etc.).
@dotanberger1025 I am not the person that you asked but it is in essence a photographic paper like any other, so yes, I believe that you can put it behind a camera obscura and get an image of reality.
YES YOU CAN AND I PLAN TO DO IT! I’m gonna most likely 3D print a pinhole camera and try it out
May you estimate the cost of a single sheet of paper? Do you know the coverage of the solution?
So I was actually wondering this myself too, so here you go:
F.A.C after tax: $46.17 for 100g = $0.4617 / g
10mL of each chemical solution needed for 3 sheets
22.5% w/v F.A.C and 9% w/v P.F.C:
2.25g F.A.C needed per 10mL
Price for 2.25g = $1.039 / 10mL
Which equals $0.346 / sheet for chemical 1
P.F.C after tax: 12.84/40g = $0.321/g
0.9g needed for 10mL = $0.289/10mL
Which equals $0.096 / sheet for chemical 2.
Paper was $1.75 for 40 sheets, so after Canadian taxes it’s $0.049/sheet for the paper.
Water cost is assumed to be free. (It’s 99cents per gallon (4L) of distilled water here so the price is negligible.
So the total cost per print is: $0.491 (CAD) / sheet if I didn’t get my math wrong.
@@KeonsLab thank you so so much
You’re so welcome! I wanted to know the answer to that too so now I know too!
Can you link article about this method?
Yeah I’ll try to find one, there was a really good website with an excerpt from a textbook about the basic process and history but the link is dead due to an “Apache server error” or something!
BUT there’s a good chance I downloaded the pdf at some point since I remember highlighting text in Adobe Acrobat, so if I find it I’ll leave a google drive link and if not I’ll find another source.
If I couldn’t find anything then I’ll make my own website and make better instructions than any of the sites even before their links went down.
So don’t worry guys, I’m gonna make sure everyone can experience this amazing process.
If I forget to edit this comment, send me an email
@KeonsLab Thanks for your service to humanity and our shared knowledge 🙏
@@KeonsLab Did you end up finding it? I'm also interested :)
@@KeonsLabhi, did you manage to find the pdf? Really interested to read more about this project
Can you use the paper in a camera?
It would be awesome if that works,
Apparently you actually can! I’m thinking of 3D printing a pinhole camera and trying to see if I can get any kind of true photographs with the cyanotype paper.
It’d be so awesome if it actually ends up working.
Potassium Ferrocyanide is not benign, whear gloves if you are doing much of this. A friend got cyanide poisoning from doing large blue prints, a mild case but....
Try to find a contact printing frame, saves the sharp glass issues, you can also get a glass company to sand the edges on thicker glass.
I have have used 1000 watt tungsten lights for exposure, exposure is 3-5 minutes, LCD panels may work, haven't tried that.
You’re talking about during the rinsing process right? Yeah if I was making these on a regular basis, especially if in large quantities and sizes, I’d 100% wear gloves no doubt, probably a respirator as well just to be safe.
The water in the first rinsing bath when I was draining it had a not insignificant yellow-green colour to it, and it definitely had enough sensitizer in it to leave blue stains where a couple drops fell… so I can totally see how repeated exposure could mildly poison someone.
Do you know for sure if it was cyanide poisoning? Because the cyanide group in potassium ferrocyanide/ferricyanide isn’t free to be absorbed/released like that unless in specific conditions.
The other chemical used, however, Ferric Ammonium Citrate, *is* quite a bit more hazardous (especially in powder form), so maybe it’s possible he got the mild poisoning from that instead?
I PROMISE I’m not *just* trying to correct you and be that guy who’s always like “🤓Well Actually…”, I just want people reading it to know I wasn’t at risk of cyanide poisoning or that it’s a super dangerous process or something.
@@KeonsLab She was doing some extreme stuff, full body prints and such, sensitizing 2x7 ft sheets of fabric. Her boy friend noticed she was always tired and finally got her to go to an ER, they diagnosed cyanide poisoning. They did some sort of treatment and she stopped working with blue prints. The symptoms went away. On the level you are working there is very little chance of poisoning but it is not 0, I'd just wear gloves. Have to say I was doing gum bichromate printing before the the stuff came out about the cancer info on bichromates came out. Yes I was sizing the paper with gelatin and formaldehyde. I wore gloves most of the time...
Your voice sounds familiar
I get that a lot for some reason, I always just thought I sounded weird haha maybe not? 😅
@@KeonsLab Not weird in my opinion. You sound like someone I used to know, maybe. I can't place it.
Aw thanks! That’s really helpful!
Hi Keon's Lab, my name is Johnny and I'm a freelance logo designer, would you love to have a memorable logo for your channel that represent your direction to help your branding easier for your audience to know where to look for you and to attract more new viewers and subscribers too, and potentially also custom membership badges, wallpaper and app icons packs and any kind of artworks to help scale up your business opportunities and fanbase too? Let me know if you interested and I would love to craft them for you! :-)
I think I’m good for now, but I appreciate the offer.
what do you top it off with ...more solution?
Why do I do the topping it off thing? Since when adding the chemicals, the volume increases a bit, and this ensures you’ll always end up with the exact volume desired.