Thanks for watching. My basement flooded, taking out my office area, so sorry for the delay on this one. Thanks again to Honkai Star Rail for sponsoring this video. Feel free to download it here if you want to check it out: hoyo.link/ffgdFNAL
Goat is back! Also, Honkai star rail is actually a ton of fun. Even if you’re completely free to play, the story is actually pretty damn good. I’d recommend at least trying it out, I’m hooked on it as someone that’s never played a gacha game before.
In Dragon Age II is an Easter Egg. Varric says, that his weapon had the name Bianca cause Mirabelle is already taken. Mirabelle was the rifle of Ser Roderick, the Soldier of the West voiced by John Cleese.
Jade Empire was so unique and I worry we will never see its like again. I loved the token Westerner who walked around carrying a gun in a martial arts game.
For games of this ilk, we now have an active Chinese developer scene, posting their stuff on steam. Someday we will get an actual Chinese Jade Empire. Someday.
This is by far my favorite BioWare game. Why? Because (cliched writing aside) it's their most original in my opinion. Not enough games tap into things like the Celestial Bureaucracy.
I really enjoyed Zin Bu the Magic Abacus. More games need a vendor in your pocket you can just unload unwanted stuff to. I really wish we could have seen what happened to him after the end of the game depending on a "good" or "bad" ending. I don't remember him getting a slide.
The amount of potential in this world setting is so untapped. I love this game. The Master Li twist physically hurt me as a kid, but is so obvious looking back now.
@@QuentinPink ironically those "hints" about the backstab are more subtle than the at least 12 npc speeches about the morality system not being good vs evil that flew completely over salts head.
A bit of trivia: Dawn Star and Silk Fox can join you in the evil ending: you have to learn that Dawn Star is Li's daughter (nobody knows initially: neither you, her nor him) and make her tougher via all the conversations. In case of Silk Fox, in one moment you can use mind control/bending on her, the same trick the Emperor used on Death Hand.
Glad to see someone mention this. I really loved how you are able to change Dawn Star's character (from goody two shoes to almost ruthless) through your actions (closed fists) and dialogue thru the game.
It has been a long time since I played this game but I think I remember if you have deaths hand in your party you can mind bend most of your party instead of killing them during the water dragon decision. Forcing them to fight for you against their will. Very dark.
you dont have to mind control any of them. they will all side with you willingly if you talk to them enough. the mind control was just sort of a safety net for closed fist players, because you dont need to worry about it with open palm.
@@BSingh18 nope, he can come willingly too. you can get everyone on board just by talking enough to them. if you killed hou in your playthrough, you didn't talk to him enough. you absolutely do not have to kill anyone in the party or use the mind control safety net. the game does not punish you for playing closed fist.
The ending would have made more sense if the game did a better job describing Ancient Chinese Philosophy and the Mandate of Heaven. Basically, natural disasters are punishments from heaven and are an indicator that the emperor is corrupt. So the reading of the ending should have been that the drought was a result of the Empire already being corrupt, and the Villains attacking the Water Dragon to prolong their empire rather than allowing reform. Hence killing the emperor and releasing the dragon also clears the drought, as that was it's purpose in the first place.
It is understandable that Salt missed this as they definitely didn't explain it well in game, but I'm still a little surprised that he didn't pick up on any of it. Pretty much all of his complaints about the Water Dragon seem to stem from him treating her like a "person" when she is meant to be more like a personification of the idea of rebirth. She is following her nature and the games themes really tie into the idea of the "natural balance" being more important than individuals or even empires.
The thing about the Water Dragon is that she is not only the Goddess of Water, she is the Goddess of the DEAD, the one that helps spirits to move on to the afterlife, by keeping her body prisoner for water she cannot perform that labor which is what lead to all the undead spirits in the game, which will only increase with time as more people die and cant move on, so essentially while the Sun brothers might have saved the Empire short-term from a draught it doomed it long-term to an eventual spirit apocalyse. The game is NOT subtle about this, the fact people are complaining that restless spirits are more and more common, and the reasons for it, is one of the central themes of the game and the fact that you never at any point mentioned it in your diatribe about the Water Dragon makes me think that for all you complained about the story being too simple, generic and dumbed down for the Halo players that you werent paying attention to it. Also if you keep Sun Kin with you but then later destroy the Water Dragon's body he is free to leave now that the path forward has been opened... and yet chooses to stay, realizing that he needs to make up for all the wrong he has done and in the epilogue becomes a wandering swordsman helping people looking to redeem himself, I understand that I can't expect you to 100% a game and see every option, but it always feel weird when you complain about the game lacking something that IS there if you take different choices.
I honestly have to agree with everything you've said. The game is deeper and more complex than people give it credit for, especially when it comes to decision making. You have so many choices that mix in and interloop with each other which creates different results, outcomes, and endings. A lot if not most of these conclusions you'll be able to see unfold during the story, with some being added as lore at the end of the game with everybody's endings.
this, salt was so thorough with both of his kotor reviews that it was off-putting to see him skip such large chunks of the story, even though the story is only 10 hours long! its miniscule in comparison to both kotor games, yet he skipped so much of the plot, including the sidequests which are some of the most memorable stuff in the game! it made the whole review feel disingenuous, like he hated the game, but couldn't really justify why. so he lied to make the game look as bad as possible.
And now, I have no reason to watch this video because one of the central intertwining narratives was almost all the problems were happening because the spirit world was disrupted by that one decision. It informed the game, most of your side quests and the main quest in general. You had a big choice to make at the end, and if you had been paying any attention to even half if it, you could see where it all went wrong and impacted everything from the beginning of the story. It was actually one of my favorites and I never felt it was dumbed down from Bioware's previous stories. I felt it was even more thoughtful and immersive as it didn't have to adhere to a very famous and well known canon.
@@cuoy13 taken from the wiki After the power of the Water Dragon was restored, Death's Hand was sustained by 's force of will. Some considered this cruel, and to Death's Hand it was just continued enslavement, but in the weeks that followed, the influence that had corrupted him began to fade, and a semblance of self-returned. For the first time in decades, Death's Hand felt something other than rage; sadness for how he, as Sun Kin, had helped attack Dirge so long ago. Acceptance of this changed him, and he wandered the Empire seeking redemption. No longer bound to Sun Li's armor, he wore it anyway, a symbol not of the monster he was forced to be, but of the monster he had not recognized within himself.
Glad to hear there were still parts that you enjoyed about this game, even coming in without the nostalgia! Kind of surprised towards the end where you were talking about the water dragon, and how weird it was that every follower was horrified by her desecration. It's mentioned periodically in-game that besides the water, she's *also* the shepherd of the dead. Without her, nobody can pass on (hence why everyone talks about all the ghosts popping up. They're like the Unsent from Final Fantasy X, and she's the Summoner putting them to rest). So it's less "she's trying to save her own skin" and more "she's trying to keep her station, and thus humanity, alive." Though your arguments about the water definitely opened my eyes to the closed-fist choice. The game teeters sometimes on what CF means, so I'm glad that choice actually emphasizes the narrative Bioware tried to write.
I will never forget the playthrough where I just chose to do every morally reprehensible decision possible. It was the most fun I ever had. Especially the end bit where I enslaved all the followers who didn't want to go along with my evil plans. Telling my character's romance-turned-slave Silk Fox that we'd be working on her "technique" later was beyond fucked up and felt illegal XD
1:24:00 Sunds like the whole mandate of heaven thing. Droughts and floods are the heavens message to have a change in managment. Also keeping an age or a life going for longer than it's natural lifespan can only bring suffering and stagnation, sort of like the themes in Sekiro and dark souls and fromsoft games in general.
This is totally it. I felt like Salt kind of missed the point of the story (though admittedly the game doesn't really push you to be invested in the "celestial order" very well). A lot of the themes around that were the "natural ending" of things and the cascading damage caused by those that fight against it. I place most of the blame on the game though because they definitely didn't do enough to make you invested in that aspect of the world.
@@QuentinPink I'd say it also has the problem of being based around a very "modernly" reviled way of thinking which the best comparison into western culture would be "god hates them" were people say that people die and suffer because god is angry at them or they offended god.
I agree this is what they were going for but I totally see Salt's point that the game doesn't do a great job of explaining that the drought was there to punish the government moreso than the people. It creates this fridge logic situation where you end up sympathizing with the villains because their opposition of the water dragon feels like the only option. When in reality they should have either abdicated willingly or been forced out by the people. But the game didn't do enough to draw that line between the government and the literal forces of nature.
@@thesilverblueman the EZ solution for this is to not be a neckbeard and actually pay attention to the story and be honest when criticizing the thing you don't like
Except I can understand the reasoning behind the decisions to prolong. Gwyn has basically no other options, the only thing he knows is to keep that original fire lit and he does so with himself. Now is it the morally correct thing to do...no probably not, but you can't necessarily say it's incorrect either given his position and the responsibility to keep order and prolong a kingdom. The same goes for the Sun brothers, why would you allow the fall of an empire because a god happened to be kind of an a-hole and disregarded the lives of innocents who simply wish to live. You are essentially asking people to die because they are no longer needed and the world can just restart anyway. This goes against the natural will to continue on by nearly every living thing on the planet. Morality can be applied both ways and Salt simply gave his view.
I watched the first part of this video, brought the game and played it to completion, and came back to finish the video. And yikes, this is one of the only videos where i believe Salt missed more than he hit. There was so much that he skimmed over, ignored, or just outright insulted without knowing the full context of. The Water Dragon is both the Goddess of water and DEATH, she helps the spirits pass on, for the last 20 years spirits have not been able to move on cause shes been imprisoned. Literaly everyone talks about ghosts, the villagers never shut up about it, Dawn Star brings it up in every conversation, and its like the main driving force of the game. The game does not hide it, Salt just somehow missed it, a million times. It also feels like he did not speak to any of the companions, theres no ranking like there is in Kotor, and he misses completely unavoidable things. Zu literally admits that hes been stalking the village keeping an eye on someone, he only offers to help you in the beginning cause he finds out its Dawn Star thats been kidnapped, and then when you get to Landing he has a conversation with the woman about a baby. Its so obvious that DS is the baby he rescused about 20 years ago, when Li wad deemed a traitor and his family killed, which is also how old DS is. He admits that DS is Li's child very soon too, he reacts like hes been burnt when he finds out Master Li is Sun Li. Salt critised the clique writing, which is the whole point as its a Wuxia based game, but couldnt pick up what it was clearly putting down too? Its so obvious he didn't spend any time with the companions, he barely mentions them, he barely speaks to them, and he knows nothing about them. Flower's demons? Kang being a god? Tian being the beginning for Bioware's softening vs hardening mechanic? Also, yes you can kill both the Mother and the Fox. Yes you can have both Tian and Dawn Star on your "side" in the closed fist ending. Yes you can date them both at the same time. Yes, Death's Hand, or rather Sun Kin, can live and choose to become good in the epilogue. I like the game, but it has very obvious flaws, dont even get me started on how horrible the combat is. But Salt complained about stuff that he obviously didnt know anything about, he should've had way more valid points, not ones he pulled out of his backside. Disappointing video. At least I got a fun game out of it.
Regarding moral nuance: you missed that you had the option to slay both the Mother AND the fox spirit. You do this in the name of closed-fist style self-determinance for the local humans and there's different dialogue to reflect it.
yeah he really didnt understand the morality system despite the game telling the player over and over and over about it. makes all the bits where he mocked the "halo" players kinda hilarious.
@@e.corellius4495More like thr game doesn't understand its own morality system. Just slapping every evil decision into Closed Fist no matter how poorly it reflects the stated philosophy.
When I got this game I did so many playthroughs discovering all the secrets and playstyles, was super stoked when I, as a brit, heard John Cleese in the game - lost my goddamn mind when I found out you could get his gun and use it
1:38:41 deaths hand actually does have a different ending. If u bind him as a good player you get a little note saying he starts searching the lands for a way to redeem himself. But if you're closed fist he serves you eternal as his new master. It's not a perfect game, far from it, but I cannot falt the depth to it. You can romance multiple characters for a polyamourous ending, you can have same-sex relationships, both of which were nearly unheard of for an early 2000s game. Even the colour game at the beginning tells you extra information. If you donate a coin to the old masters grave it gives you a token that expands that puzzle, granting a boon. There's so much to see and find, like the fact that Li killed the old master of your school, who you fight in the spirit cave, and I will forever love it even with the flaws pointed out.
The best romance outcome is smashing both Dawn Star *and* Silk Fox. Simultaneously. That's right, they agree to share you. This is the only game that I can recall that allows this option, minus QfG5 where it was patched out.
1:17:00 As ham-fisted as the game's morality can be, I think your thought process here kind of exemplifies what they were attempting to go for with Open Hand not necessarily being "good" and Closed Fist not necessarily being "evil." The Open Palm philosophy in this situation is to offer forgiveness, even if he may not "deserve" such a kindness, while the closed fist path is to make use of his power for your own ends, whether those ends are for good or for evil is besides the point.
yeah, despite mocking the "halo" players he sure didnt understand the morality explained multiple times in game by multiple characters lol. with open palm you destroy the dragon corpse because that is your role in the natural order, and it was the empires fate to be destroyed by the drought. defying that natural order to take the power for yourself and save the empire is the closed fist. but all he saw was blue go up = good and red = bad on the slider hur dur. completely ignoring or just not understanding the multiple characters who tried to explain open palm and closed fist to the player. makes the "halo" player comments he made ironically hilarious.
@@e.corellius4495 Maybe the presentation is part of that misunderstanding. Instead of the hard coded in our society blue = good and red = bad, they should have gone with idk yellow and purple. And make the depiction of the slider not top = good to bottom = bad, but sideways or something.
@@Xalantor well its the "high" path versus the "Low" path so the up down slider is just fine. and as for the colors... if that is all it takes to ignore the at least 12 npcs (that i can remember off the top of my head that directly talk about it) and their big speeches about the morality system... then maybe he should stick to something simple like "halo" lol. it was actually one of my few issues with the game when it first came out. after like the 5th i was all "okay jesus i get it already, they arent just good/evil" and felt the game was insulting me a little bit for continuing to harp on it... and i was like 12 when this came out. but apparently they needed even more because some people still dont get it.
I'm still early in the video, but one thing I am surprised you haven't mentioned (Hoping you talk about it later) is how a lot of the dialogue, characters, plot points, and tropes overall are classic Wuxia stuff. They can feel very formulaic because in a way wuxia IS extremely formulaic. That of course doesn't free them from criticism or anything, but I feel it's important to keep in mind that in many ways when you make a wuxia story you have to color inside the lines for the most part and it's how you execute that determines how good the overall experience is. In the same way that a martial artist will throw the same exact basic punch 100,000 times, wuxia tells a lot of the same stories over and over and over again in hopes of mastering those story beats and characters, not so much coming up with new, fresh ideas. Innovation takes place within the overall context, instead of changing the context.
The fact that all of the locations you can visit in the game are in the bottom right corner of the world map speaks volumes as to how much this game had to be reeled in from their original vision for it.
A sequel would be awesome and would love to see how the team would be able to continue this story. Maybe Japanese or Western invaders or a Mongol horde comes to try and wipe out the Jade Empire. So many options for a sequel and it could still be fantastical too.
The slave girl quest in act 2 is one of my favorite quests from bioware, if only because it actually has a proper closed fist resolution - you give the girl a dagger and tell her the only way she can be free is to kill the slaver.
I like this, for how much about martial arts it is, and the incredible modeling work for true variety of asian-type faces. Nothing else quite like this. Also the head kick animation is really smooth and weightless-in-a-good-way, even though it's 100% sporty with fake frontal kick turning into a side kick to the head. It doesn't even break immersion as I just appreciate the motion capture being done on a dude really into his leg technique.
This is one of my favorite mid 2000's games. I've always wanted a sequel to this game. The way they kept talking about Phoenix Gate, a city we never get to see in the game, I felt like it was practically a guarantee, but instead we got nothing but this hidden beauty. A game that never quite got the recognition it deserves. Yes, a lot of people love this game and when you talk about it, there's always a solid group of die hard fans willing to reminisce with you, but comparatively, that group is small and didn't carry the impact I wish it had. I replay this game about once every 2-3 years and every time I do, it takes me back down that magical road of discovering what it means to be the last of the Spirit Monks and what that means for me and it's always a fantastic time. This is one of those games that hit me in the right place at the right time and when I think back on it, I can come up with nothing but sweet memories of a game that never got the due I felt it deserved, but enchanted me from start to finish regardless. KOTOR and its sequel are fantastic, DA:O was excellent, but to me, this title stands right up there with those two giants. Its sales and popularity may not reflect that, but for me personally, it holds up with the best of Bioware's games and I'm happy to return to it every damn time. There's just something magical about it.
I wish you could wholeheartedly recommend old games like you can with old books, but the mechanics, not the visuals, are usually a huge hindrance. In comparison the mechanics of reading a book never change. Gaming as a whole is still very young and maybe in some 30 years the industry as a whole will have nailed down how to do certain basic things so the mechanics of playing a 10 year old game aren't as jarring as they are right now. I can deal with terrible graphics, but a terrible control scheme or clunky movement will always repel me from trying the classics.
@@XalantorI just payed this game on my iPhone and beat it today, and yeah it’s very clunky but the story had me Hooked. I got annoyed so many times about the camera movement and how slow and unfluid my character felt
Regarding Salt's criticism of DH's fate after the player gets to decide: There IS an option to say that after all he has done, just dying is too good a fate for him. You can force him to stay bound to the armour to atone for his crimes, wandering the earth doing good. So there is indeed some variation to that decision. Additional options (if you're full closed-fist) include, iirc, DH becoming a full-blown evil enforcer mutating out of his armor because the suit can't take all the evil you're forcing him to commit. Not as one-dimensional as the review portrays it as at all. Addendum: I feel like Salt didn't do two playthroughs, he just changed the endgame decisions after the same playthrough. Which would explain why his end-game slides are the same for both endings.
Jade Empire was actually the first Bioware game I ever played, and one of, if not the first RPG I ever played. Got it as a gift one Christmas and I was obsessed! I did NOT at all see the twist coming about "The Flaw" and it created a new standard in video game storytelling for me. Naturally I've gone back and played a lot of the other Bioware games after the fact, but I still have a soft spot for Jade Empire. I'd like to go back and replay it one of these days but considering gaming laptops aren't made with disk drives anymore I'd have to buy it again.
I think going closed fist is the way in this game. Playing philosophically "evil" monk leads to some choices like refusing to save the slave girl but giving her a knife and telling her to free herself. Or refusing to fix the dam not for the money from the wine merchant but so people would get stronger through struggle.
I sat down with one of the developers at E3 2003 and they walked my friend and I through the game. They were clearly excited about it, and it was neat to see, but we just snuck into the private BioWare room for the free beer and felt bad so we watched. No one knew who we were but they didn’t kick us out. We had so much fun that year.
Jade empire might be my most replayed game ever. It's just kinda fun and whenever it gets in the weeds like the spirit monk temple, you know you're near the end anyway even on a first run so it's easy to push past.
I love Jade empire, mostly because I am fan of Wuxia films, the morality system was better to me than some of the later games, as the choices were never clear that clear cut as ME, for instance. The twist was predictable, but it was so old style wuxia shlock that I found it cheesy enjoyable. The combat system suffers the most due to the mocap, as you have to wait for animation to be finished before engaging into the next attack, which makes even the fast styles feel sluggish. Plus its one of the two Bioware games where you can score a threesome (the other one is Dragon Age 2, if you meet Zevran with the pirate lady in the party).
Jade empire has possibly my favourite AND least favourite morality system. Because some people talk about what the "Low path" means, and how it does actually have some degrees of merit. And then they ignore that mechanically. An example given is that if a farmer is being attacked by a bunch of bandits, you should assist, IF the farmer will stand and fight by your side, so it promotes growth. If you just go around saving everyone, then when you're gone, they'll be helpless. But if you tell people to stand on their own two feet, they'll be able to solve their own problems. And one of the first Low Path options is the choice to pocket a fellow students money so you can replace his request for healing herbs with just a pain killer, so when he trains against you he permanently damages his leg, meaning he can never fight again. Which is kind of the exact opposite of helping people to be able to solve their own problems in the future. The High/Low choices in that case, if they had made it actually consistent, would probably just be whether or not you offer to pay for the herbs for him, or demand a little extra as a courier's fee. But, sadly, Bioware apparently didn't listen to their own game's setting, and so the low path is almost always just "Be evil". It's such a waste of potential.
I couldn't agree more. To this day I remember how interesting and complex (especially for a Bioware game) some of the morality based choices were. At the same time I remember equally as strongly how completely busted the morality system in "Jade Empire" turned out to be. Even though I did whatever suited me and chose both High/Low Path choices almost as frequently, I ended the game with the highest possible "light" status and to this day I still have no idea how the hell that happened (apart from sometimes very unbalanced light/dark point rankings in some specific choices).
A bit late; but KOTOR2 has a similar moment, you arrive on the criminal empire planet and leave your ship to bumble into a bum 10 feet from the dock begging for cash. You can either A. Give cash, or B. Walk away. Kreia; your "guide" to the force will respond to this whether in your party or through the force and discuss the consequences of your actions; giving cash makes the guy better for now but gets robbed a few minutes later, whereas not giving cash makes him suffer but Kreia brings up the possibility of you doing more good by not just helping everyone as it makes them weaker and dependant on you. This is then never discussed again. The homeless guy goes away; you do not get to talk to him later and the economy isn't impacted, the morality isn't ever adjusted through your "kindness" resulting in damage because of a lack of empathy and true compassion, *nothing happens.* It's what Bioware does all the time, they attempt to be deep but that's because the topic is murky; the pool looks deep because the water isn't clear and once you've chosen what it means to be good *that morality fails on players and falls flat.* Bioware needed a better *storyboard team* as there are individual writers that excel when given control in small situations, its the overreaching story that often crumbles over time with morality; still good games just with dumpster writing. They should've eliminated whom was the weakest link as it shows in their works.
@@tomaszgardzinski1838 It's a close issue; not the exact same but very situationally similar. Both could use a more formatted storyboard team, and like any team in any place you're only as strong as *the weakest link* and carrying them for whatever reason isn't good for anyone. Besides just dragging you down akin to a drowning victim you'll also hinder their growth by hiding them and their errors. Obsidian learned from their mistakes slowly. I'd say they still haven't learned fully; but growth is positive.
I played this on the OG Xbox way back and had a lot of the same story complaints. Turns out, that’s just how Chinese Wuxia is written - so Yes, the Emperor should have let his empire die, it was the Will of the Heavens. Odd case of a genre not being Westernized enough for the time of its release.
Yep, it was pretty funny watching a playthrough 15 years after I played it myself and seeing how many Wuxia tropes they jampacked in. They even have Arrogant Young Masters lol
Yeah I feel like that bit of the story just doesn't land with a more westernized audiences in general, if my empire was fated to die and some dragon god could stop it Id crucify that bitch like jesus and drain its power/water to save my people and Id argue that's not really an evil act. The god could stop it, refuses to do so and forces man to take action. If the dragon would just use it's power I wouldn't harm it, but its basically telling everyone I love/care about we're gonna die and we should just...accept it. From a western standpoint the god is either evil or neutral while the person working to save his people would be considered a moral good.
I legitimately think this game's twist is one of BioWare's best, because it's so fucking obvious looking back. Everyone constantly pointing out the false opening in your style, how it all seemed to convenient, how the Water Dragon LITERALLY says that you're going to die. To this day I'm amazed at how well the twist worked.
The twist worked because while playing I expected the flaw they kept bringing up to be connected with Spirit Monk's inherent defects, not Master Li's conditioned training. It was set up brilliantly to nudge you slightly into that direction so the actual plot twist came as a shock.
I'm so glad you're doing Jade Empire!!! This was one where the twist really got me. Btw my favorite way to play the theater quest was to screw up your lines so badly, the Lotus Assassins just get confused and leave to punish their informant. The playwright is upset but everyone (except the informant) lives, and the play is a hit as a great comedy!
Man, I just kinda knew from the beginning you'd gloss over the slave trader bit - it was one of the best examples of the whole open palm/closed fist idea. I just watched long enough to confirm that.
ok... I ADORED this game when I was little. people have to admit, theres something really magical about the worlds changing in this game depending on your actions. They dropped the ball on the ending area but I'll ignore that for the wonderful work done beforehand.
I say this as someone who personally loves Jade Empire with all my heart, it's one of my personal favourite games ever and absolutely the comfort-blanket videogame I will play and replay going through a rough patch. ...but 'half-baked' is totally a fair assessment, in a broad sense. I can recognise that, for as much as I adore it.
To be fair about the Dragon part.. If I remember right one of the reasons why all characters consider it such a heinous act is, other than the fact that is the equivalent of their most beloved and important entity, is the fact that her end fucks with the spirit world something fierce. Yes, the waters that are flowing are essentialy killing other people, she was used to essentialy keep others alive and in power, and it's not exactly either proper nor enjoyable being in her position ( she's not exactly enjoying being in this state of "not alive, not dead" ). But it's nevertheless important for her to return to rest and reborn because otherwise things will just get *worse*. The dead will hardly find rest, other entities will get stronger which aren't exactly good to begin with, and it's essentially just delaying something that was supposed to happen. I think that's a mix of how it is in their culture, the cultures that were used as an inspiration, and a general "yeah you may have tried to fix something.. but you not only used awful way to do so, you're just making things worst. And mostly out of selfish reasons ( mainly to be immortal )"
oh my God, this is my absolute favorite Bioware game, and I always wanted to hear you review it, but I thought it wasn't popular enough that you would. I can't wait to hear this! I just hope you enjoyed it as much as I have. If it's not clear, I haven't actually finished the video yet. I just had to say this first.
Jade Empire, despite all, its lowkey a banger of a game. I always wanted a RPG kung fu style, and this was right on the money. I would love a remake, but honestly Its a little late and I don't think they would get the essence of the game.
Holy shit, you really tackle the games I have so much love for. Jade Empire was another that I absolutely played the hell out of- but literally never had anyone to talk about it with. Sometimes it’s worth it to continually mention certain games in comment sections (which I absolutely have done with this title). Thank you, Salt Factory
I think you completely missed one of the biggest themes of the game and that everything has harmony, that balance is one of the key things. You seem to misunderstand what the Way of the Open Palm is. It is an acceptance of one’s role in society and the universe itself, whereas the Way of the Closed Fist is all about using strength to ascend from your role in society, to move past your station. The Li brothers are evil not because they sought to save the empire but because they sought to go beyond their place to such a degree that they effectively condemned the empire to extinction in the long run. They had no concerns with saving the empire but were determined to seize power beyond what they already had. You made it clear you weren’t paying attention and didn’t care so I think you missed the whole point about what all the ghosts, the death of the water dragon (who wasn’t dead but was being kept alive so she could bleed out) and the destruction of the spirit monks guaranteed that the Jade Empire would be destroyed. Souls were not going to Dirge to face judgement or to pass through the wheel of reincarnation. Spirit Monks weren’t sheparding wayward spirits, the dead were being driven mad by the lack of direction or pull because of what happened to the water dragon, which meant that the souls of the newborn would eventually run out because no new souls were entering the cycle. Basically the Li brothers sought to become gods and condemned the Empire to die a very slow death.
Also the part where the Water Dragpn says "The water has to come from somewhere" implying that the Emperors are literally stealing water from other places.
This game's plot and choices sure hit different when its cosmology metaphor doesn't land. That or Salt's just the kind of guy who doesn't see what's so ominous about the Souls' series Age of Fire.
1:40 the plot point isn't "poorly written", it's just based on pre-enlightment values. The very idea that the "system" - literally Heaven - could be wrong makes no sense in context; the Dragon isn't to blame for anything, because she represent the natural order, she's right by definition; the brothers *are* to blame, because they rebelled against nature. The moral of the story is that yes, humans *should* give up, that death is natural - for both individuals and empires - and one should not try to escape it by unnatural means, because the consequences are going to be even worse. And the consequence here isn't just the draught in other lands, it's primarily the ghosts, the fact that souls can't move on without the dragon. One can disagree with this morals, but should at least understand them.
I adored Jade Empire back when it came out. Legit played it so much it legit cooked the disc. Wish they would just do a sequel of some sort, even if spiritual
One thing I will point out, I don’t think you mentioned it, is part of the reason why capturing the Water Dragon’s power was so bad is that she’s also the starting point of the cycle of rebirth and balance, the literal Shepard of the Dead, her fragment calling out and shepherding you once you die. Without her in the world and setting at full power, the spirits cannot reach the afterlife or return reincarnated. That’s why there’s so many bloody ghosts and pissed off spirits terrorizing and killing people in the Empire.
No he mentioned that the water dragon's body being kept where it is causes other problems, just that it's not 100% evil for people to do this to try and save themselves from a drought. And that the water dragon sounds like a selfish asshole for choosing not to help people just because they wouldn't lay down and just give up on living so that something new would come about after they all die.
@@ArvelDreth I think it's a big case of eastern philosphy/mindset being vastly different from western. The dragon could save the people and chooses not to because "Its fate/the natrual order" To a western view the god is a obstacle/solution, something that either needs to be convinced or forced to do what we'd consider the morally correct act. Torturing a god to save your entire empire/your people isn't in inherently evil act from a western view, especially if the god quite simply gives you zero other options then accepting death.
@@germyforev4495 no I understand the perspective it's coming from, I read a lot of Chinese literature. But the game paints it in a way that's just deeply flawed, and as Salt Factory pointed out there's not really a good reason for there to be this zero sum game of only some people being allowed to have any water. Why does the water dragon just create droughts in different places arbitrarily? And why is it that even though it was a huge problem, once the water dragon is free, suddenly there's no problem and everything is fine? It feels like half-baked writing. There should be some kind of good reason behind the water dragon's actions so that she can be seen as sympathetic. Rather than "fuck you, die from dehydration because I said it's necessary" being the position of the entity we're supposed to see as a perfect benevolent god.
@@ArvelDreth Yeah to be clear I don't think the fundamental idea is the problem (man toying with things beyond his ilk is a classic trope) It's really down to the execution, the writing really comes across as the dragon basically going "Lol humans are silly" While everyone fricken dies, which just makes it read as the real villain of the piece, because even if the emperor is an evil bastard the dragon by the story we are told basically left zero other options to them. Like the fact the entire drought subplot disappears is just icing on the cake imo. It very much feels to me like they wrote all this then reached the end and realized "Wait by the logic we established in this setting the only way the empire and the player/players friends/family live is if they keep the dragon locked up and suffering, a good player can not logically get a traditionally good ending under the current logic" And instead of trying to fix that they just pretended that wasn't what they established.
@@germyforev4495 yeah and I completely agree that pinning up the corpse of a god to get water is gruesome as Hell and clearly not a good guy thing to do but like we established the framing makes this feel morally grey rather than pure evil even though clearly we are meant to see the Emperor and his brothers as petty much pure evil. I really feel like this is a game that needed another year or two so that things could be ironed out more properly. It's too bad we never got some kind of reboot because the potential here for a masterfully written story was all there. Even if there was some cliche writing, I would have been completely into it but the endings really shoot the story in the foot pretty badly.
To be fair on the Water Dragon thing, it's one of the few choices where the Open Palm/Closed Fist thing makes sense over just Good/Evil. Open Palm allows for freedom and restoring the "natural order" where closed fist uses control to bend the world to your will or whatever. Basically it's the age old Freedom vs Security debate Also the evil ending is very evil if you go full evil the whole way through iirc
Even if it was kinda shallow, you can have Silk Fox and Dawn Star in a throuple. I’m pretty sure this has never been done before or since in BioWare games. Not in an implied long-term relationship.
yeah he only thought it was shallow because he clearly never talked to the party at all. its obvious from the massive gaps in his knowledge about them. stuff you learn after only like 4 or 5 conversations he never knew. like zu revealing that dawn star is literally master li's daughter. or the fact that kang is an actual god, or the fact that silk fox is a peoples champion vigilante who would just as soon as becoming empress, abolish the nobility and turn the empire democratic (at least on an open palm run). but yeah, only game with an actual threesome ending period. at least as far as im aware.
I've played this game several times over the years since it was basically new and it has always felt like this was a "good first go" for a new IP that a sequel expanding on things would help a lot At the time I loved it. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was big and Star Wars Kotor was awesome and it basically combined the two with a bunch of unique fantasy stuff thrown in. Nowadays I can play it and appreciate it for what it is. A short sweet nostalgiac experiment where Bioware was experimenting with a bunch of new ideas Also I love the broken power that is the gun
They cooked the first half just right. They just forgot to flip it in the pan to cook the other half. But this is genuinely one of my favorite games, drspite the issues
This is good timing, I bought Jade Empire when it became backward compatible and now I'm finally getting around to actually playing it for the first time
Glad you´re finally covering Jade Empire, love your vids and I was hoping for you to get to this one at some point! Small comment though: The reason why the Water Dragon being enslaved is so bad and horrifying isn´t just because she was brought down by humans, it´s because her being kept in stasis goes against the natural order of things (Water isn´t supposed to be infinite, the dead can´t reincarnate and go mad which helps demons like the Mother grow more powerful and overthrow other celestial beings, the clearest example being the otherworldly thing in Dirge). Think of it like someone being angered at a natural drought hapening and killing Jesus Christ and pulling out his heart while also stuffing his body and parading it around to solve it and, in the meantime, using his power to also subjugate those that wrong him, causing everyone that dies to remain on Earth, not going to heaven or hell. Also, the assassins that Kai Lang sends after you in the arena aren´t lotus assassins, they´re completely unrelated to them, lol. PS: You missed so much with Kang.
This would be a stronger argument if the dragon didn't acklowledge it could save them, the dragon comes across as a dick that kinda got what it fucking deserved for telling everyone in the empire to just...accept death. If my entire family and empire were at risk of dying and some magical asshole could save them but won't due to some natural order bullshit Im staking that thing to a cross and making it do it. And I argue that's not evil that just being human, wanting to save millions of lives and doing whatever it takes to do so isn't fundamentally evil even if it requires horrible deeds/sacrifices. You bet your sweet ass if staking jesus to the cross would save millions I would do it and I grew up Christian. Im semi confident jesus would understand/offer himself up as a sacrafice to save the people as that's kinda his entire deal.
holy shit, i remember loving this game so much as a kid. it was one of the first RPGs to really suck me in. literally none of my friends had played it and most hadn't even heard of it. this is sick to see
This is my favorite game. I know it doesn't mean much thank you for doing a video over it. It makes me very happy. It's a shame you didn't get to know the inventor. His backstory is really interesting. Turns out he's a god named Lord Lao
Criminally unknown and underrated game. It was one of the best things BioWare has ever done and it still holds up alright even for todays standards. I want a sequel for this so much :(
Liked Jade Empire back when I played it. I was knee-deep in my Bioware-phase then, so I didn't miss it at the time. But damn, I don't remember thinking anything special about the voice actors. So hearing Gao just now really threw me for a loop "wait, was that just Nathan Fillion?!" and YES it's him. There's also Sir John Freaking Cleese, Armin "Quark" Shimerman etc.
What hooked me quite at the start of the game (back when the XBox was the latest gen console; I've played JadeEmpire there on a CRT TV) was actually the calm "trainee under a master with other trainees" setting, which I haven't encountered much before and since then. Trying now, I do not remember any bigger RPG of the last ten or so years with a similar start.
wait im so hyped for this video. as a kid i remember playing this and somehow finishing it with my short-attention span and it really opened my eyes to what games could be other than platformers and fps shooter
Jade Empire is one of my favorite games. All of the philosophy spread throughout the game had a huge influence on my psychological development towards my early 20s.
Legitimately one of my favorite games of all time. I spent many hours playing it back in 06-07. I just rebought it about 5 months ago and I wasn’t disappointed.
seemed obvious to me... i mean all you have to do is the side quest he gives you, and then a puzzle with some items like twice. was his backstory the hardest to get to? yes, was it really that hard? no.
just because you like something doesn't mean you need to attach to it like it's the only thing in the world that matters and then be heartbroken when someone goes "yeah, it wasn't that great"
@@miyawa21 ah yes, the classic "clearly a joke" comment that fails to understand that text is the absolute worst medium for sarcasm since it does not convey it in any way as everything that gets it across simply does not exist in such a crude form... unless it's hammed up to eleven so it can't be missed by even the densest of men but alas, the fault *surely* lies in me for not divining that this singular comment of the millions of other ones exactly like it was different! oh, the folly! the hubris!
"do NOT do that again or will come" i can't even lol the runescape reference then the furry mounts me and turns me rock hard as well" so much gold potential
HE NEVER MISSES just doordash food finish some college work and now after a bowl im in the clouds and my favorite youtuber drops a vid ima cry THATS WHY HE THE GOAT
I tell this story every time I see someone talking about this game. This was my first complete BioWare game. I was unaware of what I have come to call the BioWare Twist. I got up to THAT part and I literally said to myself, “You know, I feel like it is 2 to 3 hours shorter than it should be, but this has been a fun journey. I’m glad I played this, even if it was short.” 10 minutes or less after all I could say to all involved is, “Okay! But how in the hell was I supposed to know?” And now when I play I see it as very obvious because I understand more, and I keep getting pissed off because even it’s existence is foreshadowed by the phrase, “A weakness I cannot see perhaps?” There was a weakness in me and now I cannot be fooled because I have since fixed that weakness.
This game is still in my top 3 favorite games the others being Kotor and Oblivion Edit: With Deaths Hand you can control him as a good guy or evil one but he feeds on your power so depending on your choices he will redeem himself or outgrow the armor and become something more terrifying
I really enjoyed this game. I was working at starbucks and a group of IT guys would all come in on their lunch breaks. We spent a couple week chatting with each other about character builds each time when i wasnt too busy.
I actually heard of BioWare when I was a kid because my dad used to be subscribed to Game Informer in the 00’s, and I saw a few mentions of it in different issues and it always piqued my interest.
Actually found this game by accident few years back after playing every bioware game from neverwinter night to mass effect 3 and only found out that they also made this game call jade empire while browsing a darn wikipedia page for bioware. Had no idea this gem even existed until then.
Thank you for trying out Jade Empire, Was looking forward for this video for a LONG time :) SPOILER I will NEVER forget how I nearly beat the game with putting not a single skill into the support area and then the boss to be immune to EVERYTHING except support
I am 100% a Jade empire fanboy, it was my second rpg ever as a kid. Seeing your "harsh" review, I can only agree that most of my fond memories are because of my childlike inexperience and bad English understanding. That being said, I would still love a Jade empire 2.
"I can't believe drinking celestial blood while torturing the divine and bringing a permanent drought to the world ISN'T the good guy route..." - Salt after commenting on how obvious the choices like helping or fighting heaven w/ furries is.
Hey, Salt! I've been watching your videos religiously for the past couple of years. I'll watch them when you release a new one and they help me fall asleep. Thanks to you, I played and fell in love with the original Fallout games. Keep doing what your doing bro and thanks for the content!
Keeping water dragon's corpse there would continue to mess with the spirits of the dead trying to go to afterlife. Also, I think the premise of the idea behind water dragon's actions is; she's a friggin goddess, she knows what's the best for the people, even though it might not seem that way from the limited perspective of mortals.
Yeah, I really think Salt went completely of the rails on that point. Of course messing with souls and the natural order of things is bad, duh. Also droughts were very common in China's history. It has nothing to do with if the water dragon wants one to be there or not. Them existing is part of nature and her not breaking the celestial rules to supply water to one single region of the whole world is completely understandable.
Omg, I was hoping you would cover this. I had so much trouble with KotOR, but this game was so much easier to play and beat 85%. It's not perfect, but I do remember having a good time on the path of the open palm.
I loved this game as a teen, but even then it felt tedious at times. You casually downplayed parts of it that horrified me back then, especially the haunted forest and the cannibals. At times, this game really shines at creating an atmosphere, like how the cannibals start as humans and then gradually decay in mind and body until they become these twisted abominations. Death's hand had kind of a Darth Vader vibe going, which made him pretty cool, if by proxy. The whole "you're the special chosen one" schtick made sense in a way because Master Li raised the character into believing s/he was fulfilling some kind of grand destiny which made sure s/he would never actually question him or what was going on in general. I was also sort of disappointed in the lack of character for the Emperor, especially since he's the supposed big villian for most of the game. Also, I fail to feel bad for the water dragon. For a supposed god, she's not all that powerful really, just relegated to popping up here and there, talking cryptically and also slowly bleeding to death. I would really have liked to know how the brothers came up with the plan to beat a god of the supposed almighty celestial order and torture her for all eternity. And the celestial order didn't seem to care all that much seeing as not a single demon or spirit stood in the broother's way, only some measly monks which got slaughtered with no problem whatsoever. Funny how this and Avatar:The last airbender use the same premise of a technologically advanced but morally corrupt regime slaughtering harmless monks to some nefarious end^^ Lastly, a neat little detail: In the retrospective cutscene we see the third brother wielding the unneccesarily large anime sword. When we see the Death's Hand later he too wields the very same sword softly foreshadowing that twist.
Thanks for watching. My basement flooded, taking out my office area, so sorry for the delay on this one.
Thanks again to Honkai Star Rail for sponsoring this video. Feel free to download it here if you want to check it out: hoyo.link/ffgdFNAL
Hopefully you can get everything fixed or replaced soon! ✊
That sucks, I hope that your basement didn't get damaged too much
Tell your basement I said it's a bitch
Just get Ironsworn instead. It's free and has no micrto-transactions.
It's also a TTRPG so you can play it without internet connection.
Goat is back! Also, Honkai star rail is actually a ton of fun. Even if you’re completely free to play, the story is actually pretty damn good. I’d recommend at least trying it out, I’m hooked on it as someone that’s never played a gacha game before.
In Dragon Age II is an Easter Egg. Varric says, that his weapon had the name Bianca cause Mirabelle is already taken. Mirabelle was the rifle of Ser Roderick, the Soldier of the West voiced by John Cleese.
I never noticed that, that's great.
I think part of the reason the top-down shooter sections were optional was because the mandatory turret mini-game from Kotor was so widely hated.
Personally I was always deeply grateful it was optional because while it rendered that feature a bit pointless, bullet-hell was not my jam at all lol
they probably were just afraid that Halo players would get stuck there
@@SwagMyAssOff😂 dafuq? I need context
@@newphonewhodis7152 Salt refers to the Xbox players as "Halo Players". He was joking at how watered down some of the puzzles were in the game
@@Manchu504 Ah, havent finished it yet, thanks for the clarification
Jade Empire was so unique and I worry we will never see its like again.
I loved the token Westerner who walked around carrying a gun in a martial arts game.
Gun is the best martial art tbh
The best part was it was John Cleese doing the voice.
Going off memory, I believe he was named something like Lord Nonce Von Flufferbottom the Glorious Bastard. Loved him.
Did you notice that the image on his armor was a block of cheese on a fork? lol What was that about
For games of this ilk, we now have an active Chinese developer scene, posting their stuff on steam. Someday we will get an actual Chinese Jade Empire. Someday.
This is by far my favorite BioWare game. Why? Because (cliched writing aside) it's their most original in my opinion. Not enough games tap into things like the Celestial Bureaucracy.
it is one of my favorite things about Chinese theology is that even in death there's red tape
If I could just get Anthem's gameplay in this world with Mass Effect's writing I'd be so happy
I really enjoyed Zin Bu the Magic Abacus. More games need a vendor in your pocket you can just unload unwanted stuff to. I really wish we could have seen what happened to him after the end of the game depending on a "good" or "bad" ending. I don't remember him getting a slide.
Would love a remake of this game
Not a lot of choice rpgs that do martial arts as it's center point either
The amount of potential in this world setting is so untapped. I love this game.
The Master Li twist physically hurt me as a kid, but is so obvious looking back now.
lol I felt so called out watching the video when he pointed out the obvious hints that I missed as a kid XD
@@QuentinPink ironically those "hints" about the backstab are more subtle than the at least 12 npc speeches about the morality system not being good vs evil that flew completely over salts head.
@@e.corellius4495 I'm sure Bioware WANTED it to be nuanced.
A bit of trivia: Dawn Star and Silk Fox can join you in the evil ending: you have to learn that Dawn Star is Li's daughter (nobody knows initially: neither you, her nor him) and make her tougher via all the conversations. In case of Silk Fox, in one moment you can use mind control/bending on her, the same trick the Emperor used on Death Hand.
Glad to see someone mention this. I really loved how you are able to change Dawn Star's character (from goody two shoes to almost ruthless) through your actions (closed fists) and dialogue thru the game.
It has been a long time since I played this game but I think I remember if you have deaths hand in your party you can mind bend most of your party instead of killing them during the water dragon decision. Forcing them to fight for you against their will. Very dark.
you dont have to mind control any of them. they will all side with you willingly if you talk to them enough. the mind control was just sort of a safety net for closed fist players, because you dont need to worry about it with open palm.
@@e.corellius4495 The only one who doesn't regardless of your actions is Henpecked Hou if I remember correctly
@@BSingh18 nope, he can come willingly too. you can get everyone on board just by talking enough to them. if you killed hou in your playthrough, you didn't talk to him enough. you absolutely do not have to kill anyone in the party or use the mind control safety net. the game does not punish you for playing closed fist.
If you completed all the dragonfly mini games it opened up a secret area.
Great game.
And it was useful too.
The more you actually involve with the characters the more you get rewarded. Especially with Kan
The ending would have made more sense if the game did a better job describing Ancient Chinese Philosophy and the Mandate of Heaven. Basically, natural disasters are punishments from heaven and are an indicator that the emperor is corrupt. So the reading of the ending should have been that the drought was a result of the Empire already being corrupt, and the Villains attacking the Water Dragon to prolong their empire rather than allowing reform. Hence killing the emperor and releasing the dragon also clears the drought, as that was it's purpose in the first place.
It is understandable that Salt missed this as they definitely didn't explain it well in game, but I'm still a little surprised that he didn't pick up on any of it. Pretty much all of his complaints about the Water Dragon seem to stem from him treating her like a "person" when she is meant to be more like a personification of the idea of rebirth. She is following her nature and the games themes really tie into the idea of the "natural balance" being more important than individuals or even empires.
The thing about the Water Dragon is that she is not only the Goddess of Water, she is the Goddess of the DEAD, the one that helps spirits to move on to the afterlife, by keeping her body prisoner for water she cannot perform that labor which is what lead to all the undead spirits in the game, which will only increase with time as more people die and cant move on, so essentially while the Sun brothers might have saved the Empire short-term from a draught it doomed it long-term to an eventual spirit apocalyse.
The game is NOT subtle about this, the fact people are complaining that restless spirits are more and more common, and the reasons for it, is one of the central themes of the game and the fact that you never at any point mentioned it in your diatribe about the Water Dragon makes me think that for all you complained about the story being too simple, generic and dumbed down for the Halo players that you werent paying attention to it.
Also if you keep Sun Kin with you but then later destroy the Water Dragon's body he is free to leave now that the path forward has been opened... and yet chooses to stay, realizing that he needs to make up for all the wrong he has done and in the epilogue becomes a wandering swordsman helping people looking to redeem himself, I understand that I can't expect you to 100% a game and see every option, but it always feel weird when you complain about the game lacking something that IS there if you take different choices.
I honestly have to agree with everything you've said. The game is deeper and more complex than people give it credit for, especially when it comes to decision making. You have so many choices that mix in and interloop with each other which creates different results, outcomes, and endings. A lot if not most of these conclusions you'll be able to see unfold during the story, with some being added as lore at the end of the game with everybody's endings.
this, salt was so thorough with both of his kotor reviews that it was off-putting to see him skip such large chunks of the story, even though the story is only 10 hours long! its miniscule in comparison to both kotor games, yet he skipped so much of the plot, including the sidequests which are some of the most memorable stuff in the game! it made the whole review feel disingenuous, like he hated the game, but couldn't really justify why. so he lied to make the game look as bad as possible.
And now, I have no reason to watch this video because one of the central intertwining narratives was almost all the problems were happening because the spirit world was disrupted by that one decision. It informed the game, most of your side quests and the main quest in general. You had a big choice to make at the end, and if you had been paying any attention to even half if it, you could see where it all went wrong and impacted everything from the beginning of the story.
It was actually one of my favorites and I never felt it was dumbed down from Bioware's previous stories. I felt it was even more thoughtful and immersive as it didn't have to adhere to a very famous and well known canon.
I didn't know this part about keeping Sun Kin. I was taught if you keep him it's a Closed Fist option, all the way through.
@@cuoy13 taken from the wiki
After the power of the Water Dragon was restored, Death's Hand was sustained by 's force of will. Some considered this cruel, and to Death's Hand it was just continued enslavement, but in the weeks that followed, the influence that had corrupted him began to fade, and a semblance of self-returned. For the first time in decades, Death's Hand felt something other than rage; sadness for how he, as Sun Kin, had helped attack Dirge so long ago. Acceptance of this changed him, and he wandered the Empire seeking redemption. No longer bound to Sun Li's armor, he wore it anyway, a symbol not of the monster he was forced to be, but of the monster he had not recognized within himself.
Glad to hear there were still parts that you enjoyed about this game, even coming in without the nostalgia!
Kind of surprised towards the end where you were talking about the water dragon, and how weird it was that every follower was horrified by her desecration.
It's mentioned periodically in-game that besides the water, she's *also* the shepherd of the dead. Without her, nobody can pass on (hence why everyone talks about all the ghosts popping up. They're like the Unsent from Final Fantasy X, and she's the Summoner putting them to rest).
So it's less "she's trying to save her own skin" and more "she's trying to keep her station, and thus humanity, alive."
Though your arguments about the water definitely opened my eyes to the closed-fist choice. The game teeters sometimes on what CF means, so I'm glad that choice actually emphasizes the narrative Bioware tried to write.
I will never forget the playthrough where I just chose to do every morally reprehensible decision possible. It was the most fun I ever had. Especially the end bit where I enslaved all the followers who didn't want to go along with my evil plans. Telling my character's romance-turned-slave Silk Fox that we'd be working on her "technique" later was beyond fucked up and felt illegal XD
gross
@@trustytrestRight!?!? Isn't it GREAT?
This was when I found out I was and always will be chaotic evil given the option. Punching that reporter in mass effect was pure bliss
I did that in my first run too. But I loved it
@@HalloweenSurfboard What's evil about punching a smear merchant?
1:24:00 Sunds like the whole mandate of heaven thing. Droughts and floods are the heavens message to have a change in managment. Also keeping an age or a life going for longer than it's natural lifespan can only bring suffering and stagnation, sort of like the themes in Sekiro and dark souls and fromsoft games in general.
This is totally it. I felt like Salt kind of missed the point of the story (though admittedly the game doesn't really push you to be invested in the "celestial order" very well). A lot of the themes around that were the "natural ending" of things and the cascading damage caused by those that fight against it. I place most of the blame on the game though because they definitely didn't do enough to make you invested in that aspect of the world.
@@QuentinPink I'd say it also has the problem of being based around a very "modernly" reviled way of thinking which the best comparison into western culture would be "god hates them" were people say that people die and suffer because god is angry at them or they offended god.
I agree this is what they were going for but I totally see Salt's point that the game doesn't do a great job of explaining that the drought was there to punish the government moreso than the people. It creates this fridge logic situation where you end up sympathizing with the villains because their opposition of the water dragon feels like the only option. When in reality they should have either abdicated willingly or been forced out by the people. But the game didn't do enough to draw that line between the government and the literal forces of nature.
@@thesilverblueman the EZ solution for this is to not be a neckbeard and actually pay attention to the story and be honest when criticizing the thing you don't like
Except I can understand the reasoning behind the decisions to prolong. Gwyn has basically no other options, the only thing he knows is to keep that original fire lit and he does so with himself. Now is it the morally correct thing to do...no probably not, but you can't necessarily say it's incorrect either given his position and the responsibility to keep order and prolong a kingdom. The same goes for the Sun brothers, why would you allow the fall of an empire because a god happened to be kind of an a-hole and disregarded the lives of innocents who simply wish to live. You are essentially asking people to die because they are no longer needed and the world can just restart anyway. This goes against the natural will to continue on by nearly every living thing on the planet. Morality can be applied both ways and Salt simply gave his view.
I watched the first part of this video, brought the game and played it to completion, and came back to finish the video. And yikes, this is one of the only videos where i believe Salt missed more than he hit. There was so much that he skimmed over, ignored, or just outright insulted without knowing the full context of. The Water Dragon is both the Goddess of water and DEATH, she helps the spirits pass on, for the last 20 years spirits have not been able to move on cause shes been imprisoned. Literaly everyone talks about ghosts, the villagers never shut up about it, Dawn Star brings it up in every conversation, and its like the main driving force of the game. The game does not hide it, Salt just somehow missed it, a million times.
It also feels like he did not speak to any of the companions, theres no ranking like there is in Kotor, and he misses completely unavoidable things. Zu literally admits that hes been stalking the village keeping an eye on someone, he only offers to help you in the beginning cause he finds out its Dawn Star thats been kidnapped, and then when you get to Landing he has a conversation with the woman about a baby. Its so obvious that DS is the baby he rescused about 20 years ago, when Li wad deemed a traitor and his family killed, which is also how old DS is. He admits that DS is Li's child very soon too, he reacts like hes been burnt when he finds out Master Li is Sun Li. Salt critised the clique writing, which is the whole point as its a Wuxia based game, but couldnt pick up what it was clearly putting down too?
Its so obvious he didn't spend any time with the companions, he barely mentions them, he barely speaks to them, and he knows nothing about them. Flower's demons? Kang being a god? Tian being the beginning for Bioware's softening vs hardening mechanic?
Also, yes you can kill both the Mother and the Fox. Yes you can have both Tian and Dawn Star on your "side" in the closed fist ending. Yes you can date them both at the same time. Yes, Death's Hand, or rather Sun Kin, can live and choose to become good in the epilogue.
I like the game, but it has very obvious flaws, dont even get me started on how horrible the combat is. But Salt complained about stuff that he obviously didnt know anything about, he should've had way more valid points, not ones he pulled out of his backside.
Disappointing video. At least I got a fun game out of it.
Couldn't have said it better myself. It feels like he just rushed this one out of a sense of obligation and didn't even pay attention to the dialogue.
His critique sucks. The end.
Regarding moral nuance: you missed that you had the option to slay both the Mother AND the fox spirit. You do this in the name of closed-fist style self-determinance for the local humans and there's different dialogue to reflect it.
yeah he really didnt understand the morality system despite the game telling the player over and over and over about it. makes all the bits where he mocked the "halo" players kinda hilarious.
@@e.corellius4495More like thr game doesn't understand its own morality system. Just slapping every evil decision into Closed Fist no matter how poorly it reflects the stated philosophy.
Yep, that's exactly what I did and to this day it's one of the most memorable and justifable "evil" (heavy quation) choices in a Bioware game ever.
When I got this game I did so many playthroughs discovering all the secrets and playstyles, was super stoked when I, as a brit, heard John Cleese in the game - lost my goddamn mind when I found out you could get his gun and use it
Am I the only one who imagined Mr. Fawlty just busting a cap in someone doing kung fu in his hotel? 😂
1:38:41 deaths hand actually does have a different ending. If u bind him as a good player you get a little note saying he starts searching the lands for a way to redeem himself. But if you're closed fist he serves you eternal as his new master.
It's not a perfect game, far from it, but I cannot falt the depth to it. You can romance multiple characters for a polyamourous ending, you can have same-sex relationships, both of which were nearly unheard of for an early 2000s game. Even the colour game at the beginning tells you extra information. If you donate a coin to the old masters grave it gives you a token that expands that puzzle, granting a boon. There's so much to see and find, like the fact that Li killed the old master of your school, who you fight in the spirit cave, and I will forever love it even with the flaws pointed out.
I love the variety of ways the quest with the doctor can go, too.
The best romance outcome is smashing both Dawn Star *and* Silk Fox. Simultaneously.
That's right, they agree to share you. This is the only game that I can recall that allows this option, minus QfG5 where it was patched out.
Nevermind the fact that they are first cousins...
@@AlozarLorandulthis makes it even better
@@hundkebab2433 hahah
@@hundkebab2433 Sweet home Alabama...
The evil play through is so fun. Especially the marriage quest.
1:17:00 As ham-fisted as the game's morality can be, I think your thought process here kind of exemplifies what they were attempting to go for with Open Hand not necessarily being "good" and Closed Fist not necessarily being "evil." The Open Palm philosophy in this situation is to offer forgiveness, even if he may not "deserve" such a kindness, while the closed fist path is to make use of his power for your own ends, whether those ends are for good or for evil is besides the point.
yeah, despite mocking the "halo" players he sure didnt understand the morality explained multiple times in game by multiple characters lol. with open palm you destroy the dragon corpse because that is your role in the natural order, and it was the empires fate to be destroyed by the drought. defying that natural order to take the power for yourself and save the empire is the closed fist. but all he saw was blue go up = good and red = bad on the slider hur dur. completely ignoring or just not understanding the multiple characters who tried to explain open palm and closed fist to the player. makes the "halo" player comments he made ironically hilarious.
@@e.corellius4495 Maybe the presentation is part of that misunderstanding. Instead of the hard coded in our society blue = good and red = bad, they should have gone with idk yellow and purple. And make the depiction of the slider not top = good to bottom = bad, but sideways or something.
@@Xalantor well its the "high" path versus the "Low" path so the up down slider is just fine. and as for the colors... if that is all it takes to ignore the at least 12 npcs (that i can remember off the top of my head that directly talk about it) and their big speeches about the morality system... then maybe he should stick to something simple like "halo" lol.
it was actually one of my few issues with the game when it first came out. after like the 5th i was all "okay jesus i get it already, they arent just good/evil" and felt the game was insulting me a little bit for continuing to harp on it... and i was like 12 when this came out. but apparently they needed even more because some people still dont get it.
I'm still early in the video, but one thing I am surprised you haven't mentioned (Hoping you talk about it later) is how a lot of the dialogue, characters, plot points, and tropes overall are classic Wuxia stuff. They can feel very formulaic because in a way wuxia IS extremely formulaic. That of course doesn't free them from criticism or anything, but I feel it's important to keep in mind that in many ways when you make a wuxia story you have to color inside the lines for the most part and it's how you execute that determines how good the overall experience is. In the same way that a martial artist will throw the same exact basic punch 100,000 times, wuxia tells a lot of the same stories over and over and over again in hopes of mastering those story beats and characters, not so much coming up with new, fresh ideas. Innovation takes place within the overall context, instead of changing the context.
The fact that all of the locations you can visit in the game are in the bottom right corner of the world map speaks volumes as to how much this game had to be reeled in from their original vision for it.
God I love this game and wanted a sequel so damn bad.
Every year I think this will be the year we get Jade empire 2 confirmed.
A sequel would be awesome and would love to see how the team would be able to continue this story. Maybe Japanese or Western invaders or a Mongol horde comes to try and wipe out the Jade Empire. So many options for a sequel and it could still be fantastical too.
Who knows there making a mass effect 4 now so perhaps
It's actually amazing it never got a sequel or reboot or some kind of rerelease.
Well too bad. EA says no and I am pretty sure they holding the IP.
The slave girl quest in act 2 is one of my favorite quests from bioware, if only because it actually has a proper closed fist resolution - you give the girl a dagger and tell her the only way she can be free is to kill the slaver.
I like this, for how much about martial arts it is, and the incredible modeling work for true variety of asian-type faces. Nothing else quite like this. Also the head kick animation is really smooth and weightless-in-a-good-way, even though it's 100% sporty with fake frontal kick turning into a side kick to the head. It doesn't even break immersion as I just appreciate the motion capture being done on a dude really into his leg technique.
This is one of my favorite mid 2000's games. I've always wanted a sequel to this game. The way they kept talking about Phoenix Gate, a city we never get to see in the game, I felt like it was practically a guarantee, but instead we got nothing but this hidden beauty. A game that never quite got the recognition it deserves. Yes, a lot of people love this game and when you talk about it, there's always a solid group of die hard fans willing to reminisce with you, but comparatively, that group is small and didn't carry the impact I wish it had.
I replay this game about once every 2-3 years and every time I do, it takes me back down that magical road of discovering what it means to be the last of the Spirit Monks and what that means for me and it's always a fantastic time. This is one of those games that hit me in the right place at the right time and when I think back on it, I can come up with nothing but sweet memories of a game that never got the due I felt it deserved, but enchanted me from start to finish regardless.
KOTOR and its sequel are fantastic, DA:O was excellent, but to me, this title stands right up there with those two giants. Its sales and popularity may not reflect that, but for me personally, it holds up with the best of Bioware's games and I'm happy to return to it every damn time. There's just something magical about it.
I wish you could wholeheartedly recommend old games like you can with old books, but the mechanics, not the visuals, are usually a huge hindrance. In comparison the mechanics of reading a book never change. Gaming as a whole is still very young and maybe in some 30 years the industry as a whole will have nailed down how to do certain basic things so the mechanics of playing a 10 year old game aren't as jarring as they are right now. I can deal with terrible graphics, but a terrible control scheme or clunky movement will always repel me from trying the classics.
One of my all time favorite games.
@@XalantorI just payed this game on my iPhone and beat it today, and yeah it’s very clunky but the story had me
Hooked. I got annoyed so many times about the camera movement and how slow and unfluid my character felt
Regarding Salt's criticism of DH's fate after the player gets to decide:
There IS an option to say that after all he has done, just dying is too good a fate for him.
You can force him to stay bound to the armour to atone for his crimes, wandering the earth doing good.
So there is indeed some variation to that decision. Additional options (if you're full closed-fist) include, iirc, DH becoming a full-blown evil enforcer mutating out of his armor because the suit can't take all the evil you're forcing him to commit.
Not as one-dimensional as the review portrays it as at all.
Addendum:
I feel like Salt didn't do two playthroughs, he just changed the endgame decisions after the same playthrough.
Which would explain why his end-game slides are the same for both endings.
Jade Empire was actually the first Bioware game I ever played, and one of, if not the first RPG I ever played. Got it as a gift one Christmas and I was obsessed! I did NOT at all see the twist coming about "The Flaw" and it created a new standard in video game storytelling for me. Naturally I've gone back and played a lot of the other Bioware games after the fact, but I still have a soft spot for Jade Empire. I'd like to go back and replay it one of these days but considering gaming laptops aren't made with disk drives anymore I'd have to buy it again.
I think going closed fist is the way in this game. Playing philosophically "evil" monk leads to some choices like refusing to save the slave girl but giving her a knife and telling her to free herself. Or refusing to fix the dam not for the money from the wine merchant but so people would get stronger through struggle.
Niiiice new Salt Factory. Jade Empire always struck me as the "missing link" between the KOTOR era bioware and the mass effect Era.
I sat down with one of the developers at E3 2003 and they walked my friend and I through the game. They were clearly excited about it, and it was neat to see, but we just snuck into the private BioWare room for the free beer and felt bad so we watched. No one knew who we were but they didn’t kick us out. We had so much fun that year.
Jade empire might be my most replayed game ever. It's just kinda fun and whenever it gets in the weeds like the spirit monk temple, you know you're near the end anyway even on a first run so it's easy to push past.
I love Jade empire, mostly because I am fan of Wuxia films, the morality system was better to me than some of the later games, as the choices were never clear that clear cut as ME, for instance. The twist was predictable, but it was so old style wuxia shlock that I found it cheesy enjoyable. The combat system suffers the most due to the mocap, as you have to wait for animation to be finished before engaging into the next attack, which makes even the fast styles feel sluggish. Plus its one of the two Bioware games where you can score a threesome (the other one is Dragon Age 2, if you meet Zevran with the pirate lady in the party).
One of Three you meet Isabella in DAO too
Jade empire has possibly my favourite AND least favourite morality system.
Because some people talk about what the "Low path" means, and how it does actually have some degrees of merit. And then they ignore that mechanically.
An example given is that if a farmer is being attacked by a bunch of bandits, you should assist, IF the farmer will stand and fight by your side, so it promotes growth. If you just go around saving everyone, then when you're gone, they'll be helpless. But if you tell people to stand on their own two feet, they'll be able to solve their own problems.
And one of the first Low Path options is the choice to pocket a fellow students money so you can replace his request for healing herbs with just a pain killer, so when he trains against you he permanently damages his leg, meaning he can never fight again.
Which is kind of the exact opposite of helping people to be able to solve their own problems in the future.
The High/Low choices in that case, if they had made it actually consistent, would probably just be whether or not you offer to pay for the herbs for him, or demand a little extra as a courier's fee.
But, sadly, Bioware apparently didn't listen to their own game's setting, and so the low path is almost always just "Be evil".
It's such a waste of potential.
I couldn't agree more. To this day I remember how interesting and complex (especially for a Bioware game) some of the morality based choices were. At the same time I remember equally as strongly how completely busted the morality system in "Jade Empire" turned out to be. Even though I did whatever suited me and chose both High/Low Path choices almost as frequently, I ended the game with the highest possible "light" status and to this day I still have no idea how the hell that happened (apart from sometimes very unbalanced light/dark point rankings in some specific choices).
A bit late; but KOTOR2 has a similar moment, you arrive on the criminal empire planet and leave your ship to bumble into a bum 10 feet from the dock begging for cash. You can either A. Give cash, or B. Walk away. Kreia; your "guide" to the force will respond to this whether in your party or through the force and discuss the consequences of your actions; giving cash makes the guy better for now but gets robbed a few minutes later, whereas not giving cash makes him suffer but Kreia brings up the possibility of you doing more good by not just helping everyone as it makes them weaker and dependant on you.
This is then never discussed again. The homeless guy goes away; you do not get to talk to him later and the economy isn't impacted, the morality isn't ever adjusted through your "kindness" resulting in damage because of a lack of empathy and true compassion, *nothing happens.* It's what Bioware does all the time, they attempt to be deep but that's because the topic is murky; the pool looks deep because the water isn't clear and once you've chosen what it means to be good *that morality fails on players and falls flat.*
Bioware needed a better *storyboard team* as there are individual writers that excel when given control in small situations, its the overreaching story that often crumbles over time with morality; still good games just with dumpster writing. They should've eliminated whom was the weakest link as it shows in their works.
@@EddieSpaghetti69I get what you're saying but KOTOR 2 was made by Obsidian, not Bioware. So that particular example isn't very well thought out.
@@tomaszgardzinski1838 It's a close issue; not the exact same but very situationally similar. Both could use a more formatted storyboard team, and like any team in any place you're only as strong as *the weakest link* and carrying them for whatever reason isn't good for anyone. Besides just dragging you down akin to a drowning victim you'll also hinder their growth by hiding them and their errors.
Obsidian learned from their mistakes slowly. I'd say they still haven't learned fully; but growth is positive.
I played this on the OG Xbox way back and had a lot of the same story complaints. Turns out, that’s just how Chinese Wuxia is written - so Yes, the Emperor should have let his empire die, it was the Will of the Heavens. Odd case of a genre not being Westernized enough for the time of its release.
So that's why I loved the story so much in comparison, I love Wuxia, but I only got into it in the recent years, way after I've played Jade Empire.
Yep, it was pretty funny watching a playthrough 15 years after I played it myself and seeing how many Wuxia tropes they jampacked in. They even have Arrogant Young Masters lol
Yeah I feel like that bit of the story just doesn't land with a more westernized audiences in general, if my empire was fated to die and some dragon god could stop it Id crucify that bitch like jesus and drain its power/water to save my people and Id argue that's not really an evil act. The god could stop it, refuses to do so and forces man to take action. If the dragon would just use it's power I wouldn't harm it, but its basically telling everyone I love/care about we're gonna die and we should just...accept it.
From a western standpoint the god is either evil or neutral while the person working to save his people would be considered a moral good.
I remember loving Jade Empire as a kid. It was very interesting
I unironically love the facial animation in this game. They way their mouths move and their heads tilt around feels....satisfying to me.
I LOVED this game as a kid. So stoked to watch this already
picked it up at one of those used game areas in EB Games. Didn't know much except it was an RPG. Man I loved it. Finished it in a few days.
I did too, but don't remember anything about it besides I played it and enjoyed it.
I can't believe you missed Kang's Side Mission visiting another heaven.
"Radiant Jen Z" is an actual knee-slapper :D
I definitely laughed really hard at that joke lol
I legitimately think this game's twist is one of BioWare's best, because it's so fucking obvious looking back. Everyone constantly pointing out the false opening in your style, how it all seemed to convenient, how the Water Dragon LITERALLY says that you're going to die. To this day I'm amazed at how well the twist worked.
The twist worked because while playing I expected the flaw they kept bringing up to be connected with Spirit Monk's inherent defects, not Master Li's conditioned training. It was set up brilliantly to nudge you slightly into that direction so the actual plot twist came as a shock.
I'm so glad you're doing Jade Empire!!! This was one where the twist really got me. Btw my favorite way to play the theater quest was to screw up your lines so badly, the Lotus Assassins just get confused and leave to punish their informant. The playwright is upset but everyone (except the informant) lives, and the play is a hit as a great comedy!
Man, I just kinda knew from the beginning you'd gloss over the slave trader bit - it was one of the best examples of the whole open palm/closed fist idea. I just watched long enough to confirm that.
ok... I ADORED this game when I was little. people have to admit, theres something really magical about the worlds changing in this game depending on your actions. They dropped the ball on the ending area but I'll ignore that for the wonderful work done beforehand.
It was still better than the ending obsidian gave us in kotor 2
@angelganon8213 I disagree. Kotor 2s ending isn't good, but this is one is pretty damn bad
I say this as someone who personally loves Jade Empire with all my heart, it's one of my personal favourite games ever and absolutely the comfort-blanket videogame I will play and replay going through a rough patch.
...but 'half-baked' is totally a fair assessment, in a broad sense. I can recognise that, for as much as I adore it.
Jade Empire remains one of my most replayed single players games, coming back to it again and again. Love this game and really wish we'd get a remake.
Yeah dude, I replay it all the time, never gets old.
Bro I was one of the commenters recommending Jade empire and I am so happy you did it. Jade empire is one of my favorite games of all time.
Did you actually watch the video?it’s a constant shit fest. The guy sucks.
To be fair about the Dragon part.. If I remember right one of the reasons why all characters consider it such a heinous act is, other than the fact that is the equivalent of their most beloved and important entity, is the fact that her end fucks with the spirit world something fierce. Yes, the waters that are flowing are essentialy killing other people, she was used to essentialy keep others alive and in power, and it's not exactly either proper nor enjoyable being in her position ( she's not exactly enjoying being in this state of "not alive, not dead" ). But it's nevertheless important for her to return to rest and reborn because otherwise things will just get *worse*. The dead will hardly find rest, other entities will get stronger which aren't exactly good to begin with, and it's essentially just delaying something that was supposed to happen.
I think that's a mix of how it is in their culture, the cultures that were used as an inspiration, and a general "yeah you may have tried to fix something.. but you not only used awful way to do so, you're just making things worst. And mostly out of selfish reasons ( mainly to be immortal )"
oh my God, this is my absolute favorite Bioware game, and I always wanted to hear you review it, but I thought it wasn't popular enough that you would. I can't wait to hear this! I just hope you enjoyed it as much as I have. If it's not clear, I haven't actually finished the video yet. I just had to say this first.
Plot twist
sorry bud.
We can still love it!
We require no validation to like what we do.
RIP
Jade Empire, despite all, its lowkey a banger of a game. I always wanted a RPG kung fu style, and this was right on the money. I would love a remake, but honestly Its a little late and I don't think they would get the essence of the game.
Holy shit, you really tackle the games I have so much love for. Jade Empire was another that I absolutely played the hell out of- but literally never had anyone to talk about it with. Sometimes it’s worth it to continually mention certain games in comment sections (which I absolutely have done with this title). Thank you, Salt Factory
I think you completely missed one of the biggest themes of the game and that everything has harmony, that balance is one of the key things. You seem to misunderstand what the Way of the Open Palm is.
It is an acceptance of one’s role in society and the universe itself, whereas the Way of the Closed Fist is all about using strength to ascend from your role in society, to move past your station.
The Li brothers are evil not because they sought to save the empire but because they sought to go beyond their place to such a degree that they effectively condemned the empire to extinction in the long run. They had no concerns with saving the empire but were determined to seize power beyond what they already had.
You made it clear you weren’t paying attention and didn’t care so I think you missed the whole point about what all the ghosts, the death of the water dragon (who wasn’t dead but was being kept alive so she could bleed out) and the destruction of the spirit monks guaranteed that the Jade Empire would be destroyed. Souls were not going to Dirge to face judgement or to pass through the wheel of reincarnation. Spirit Monks weren’t sheparding wayward spirits, the dead were being driven mad by the lack of direction or pull because of what happened to the water dragon, which meant that the souls of the newborn would eventually run out because no new souls were entering the cycle.
Basically the Li brothers sought to become gods and condemned the Empire to die a very slow death.
Also the part where the Water Dragpn says "The water has to come from somewhere" implying that the Emperors are literally stealing water from other places.
This game's plot and choices sure hit different when its cosmology metaphor doesn't land. That or Salt's just the kind of guy who doesn't see what's so ominous about the Souls' series Age of Fire.
1:40 the plot point isn't "poorly written", it's just based on pre-enlightment values. The very idea that the "system" - literally Heaven - could be wrong makes no sense in context; the Dragon isn't to blame for anything, because she represent the natural order, she's right by definition; the brothers *are* to blame, because they rebelled against nature. The moral of the story is that yes, humans *should* give up, that death is natural - for both individuals and empires - and one should not try to escape it by unnatural means, because the consequences are going to be even worse. And the consequence here isn't just the draught in other lands, it's primarily the ghosts, the fact that souls can't move on without the dragon. One can disagree with this morals, but should at least understand them.
No it's badly written from the samples of writing in the video.
I adored Jade Empire back when it came out. Legit played it so much it legit cooked the disc. Wish they would just do a sequel of some sort, even if spiritual
Give it a total remake.
Oh, agreed. A remake that really expands everything so it fleshes out the party members and story.
One thing I will point out, I don’t think you mentioned it, is part of the reason why capturing the Water Dragon’s power was so bad is that she’s also the starting point of the cycle of rebirth and balance, the literal Shepard of the Dead, her fragment calling out and shepherding you once you die. Without her in the world and setting at full power, the spirits cannot reach the afterlife or return reincarnated. That’s why there’s so many bloody ghosts and pissed off spirits terrorizing and killing people in the Empire.
No he mentioned that the water dragon's body being kept where it is causes other problems, just that it's not 100% evil for people to do this to try and save themselves from a drought.
And that the water dragon sounds like a selfish asshole for choosing not to help people just because they wouldn't lay down and just give up on living so that something new would come about after they all die.
@@ArvelDreth I think it's a big case of eastern philosphy/mindset being vastly different from western. The dragon could save the people and chooses not to because "Its fate/the natrual order"
To a western view the god is a obstacle/solution, something that either needs to be convinced or forced to do what we'd consider the morally correct act. Torturing a god to save your entire empire/your people isn't in inherently evil act from a western view, especially if the god quite simply gives you zero other options then accepting death.
@@germyforev4495 no I understand the perspective it's coming from, I read a lot of Chinese literature. But the game paints it in a way that's just deeply flawed, and as Salt Factory pointed out there's not really a good reason for there to be this zero sum game of only some people being allowed to have any water.
Why does the water dragon just create droughts in different places arbitrarily? And why is it that even though it was a huge problem, once the water dragon is free, suddenly there's no problem and everything is fine? It feels like half-baked writing. There should be some kind of good reason behind the water dragon's actions so that she can be seen as sympathetic. Rather than "fuck you, die from dehydration because I said it's necessary" being the position of the entity we're supposed to see as a perfect benevolent god.
@@ArvelDreth Yeah to be clear I don't think the fundamental idea is the problem (man toying with things beyond his ilk is a classic trope)
It's really down to the execution, the writing really comes across as the dragon basically going "Lol humans are silly" While everyone fricken dies, which just makes it read as the real villain of the piece, because even if the emperor is an evil bastard the dragon by the story we are told basically left zero other options to them.
Like the fact the entire drought subplot disappears is just icing on the cake imo. It very much feels to me like they wrote all this then reached the end and realized "Wait by the logic we established in this setting the only way the empire and the player/players friends/family live is if they keep the dragon locked up and suffering, a good player can not logically get a traditionally good ending under the current logic" And instead of trying to fix that they just pretended that wasn't what they established.
@@germyforev4495 yeah and I completely agree that pinning up the corpse of a god to get water is gruesome as Hell and clearly not a good guy thing to do but like we established the framing makes this feel morally grey rather than pure evil even though clearly we are meant to see the Emperor and his brothers as petty much pure evil.
I really feel like this is a game that needed another year or two so that things could be ironed out more properly. It's too bad we never got some kind of reboot because the potential here for a masterfully written story was all there. Even if there was some cliche writing, I would have been completely into it but the endings really shoot the story in the foot pretty badly.
To be fair on the Water Dragon thing, it's one of the few choices where the Open Palm/Closed Fist thing makes sense over just Good/Evil. Open Palm allows for freedom and restoring the "natural order" where closed fist uses control to bend the world to your will or whatever. Basically it's the age old Freedom vs Security debate
Also the evil ending is very evil if you go full evil the whole way through iirc
Even if it was kinda shallow, you can have Silk Fox and Dawn Star in a throuple. I’m pretty sure this has never been done before or since in BioWare games. Not in an implied long-term relationship.
yeah he only thought it was shallow because he clearly never talked to the party at all. its obvious from the massive gaps in his knowledge about them. stuff you learn after only like 4 or 5 conversations he never knew. like zu revealing that dawn star is literally master li's daughter. or the fact that kang is an actual god, or the fact that silk fox is a peoples champion vigilante who would just as soon as becoming empress, abolish the nobility and turn the empire democratic (at least on an open palm run).
but yeah, only game with an actual threesome ending period. at least as far as im aware.
I hope you and your basement are ok
Glad you had the same dumb thought as I when Chandler Ling showed up
I've played this game several times over the years since it was basically new and it has always felt like this was a "good first go" for a new IP that a sequel expanding on things would help a lot
At the time I loved it. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was big and Star Wars Kotor was awesome and it basically combined the two with a bunch of unique fantasy stuff thrown in. Nowadays I can play it and appreciate it for what it is. A short sweet nostalgiac experiment where Bioware was experimenting with a bunch of new ideas
Also I love the broken power that is the gun
They cooked the first half just right. They just forgot to flip it in the pan to cook the other half. But this is genuinely one of my favorite games, drspite the issues
This is good timing, I bought Jade Empire when it became backward compatible and now I'm finally getting around to actually playing it for the first time
Glad you´re finally covering Jade Empire, love your vids and I was hoping for you to get to this one at some point!
Small comment though: The reason why the Water Dragon being enslaved is so bad and horrifying isn´t just because she was brought down by humans, it´s because her being kept in stasis goes against the natural order of things (Water isn´t supposed to be infinite, the dead can´t reincarnate and go mad which helps demons like the Mother grow more powerful and overthrow other celestial beings, the clearest example being the otherworldly thing in Dirge).
Think of it like someone being angered at a natural drought hapening and killing Jesus Christ and pulling out his heart while also stuffing his body and parading it around to solve it and, in the meantime, using his power to also subjugate those that wrong him, causing everyone that dies to remain on Earth, not going to heaven or hell.
Also, the assassins that Kai Lang sends after you in the arena aren´t lotus assassins, they´re completely unrelated to them, lol.
PS: You missed so much with Kang.
This would be a stronger argument if the dragon didn't acklowledge it could save them, the dragon comes across as a dick that kinda got what it fucking deserved for telling everyone in the empire to just...accept death.
If my entire family and empire were at risk of dying and some magical asshole could save them but won't due to some natural order bullshit Im staking that thing to a cross and making it do it. And I argue that's not evil that just being human, wanting to save millions of lives and doing whatever it takes to do so isn't fundamentally evil even if it requires horrible deeds/sacrifices.
You bet your sweet ass if staking jesus to the cross would save millions I would do it and I grew up Christian. Im semi confident jesus would understand/offer himself up as a sacrafice to save the people as that's kinda his entire deal.
Natural droughts aren’t generally decades long. That’s an extinction event for a country or empire calling for drastic measures.
honestly he seems to have missed half the game
holy shit, i remember loving this game so much as a kid. it was one of the first RPGs to really suck me in. literally none of my friends had played it and most hadn't even heard of it. this is sick to see
This is my favorite game. I know it doesn't mean much thank you for doing a video over it. It makes me very happy. It's a shame you didn't get to know the inventor. His backstory is really interesting. Turns out he's a god named Lord Lao
Criminally unknown and underrated game. It was one of the best things BioWare has ever done and it still holds up alright even for todays standards. I want a sequel for this so much :(
Liked Jade Empire back when I played it. I was knee-deep in my Bioware-phase then, so I didn't miss it at the time.
But damn, I don't remember thinking anything special about the voice actors.
So hearing Gao just now really threw me for a loop "wait, was that just Nathan Fillion?!" and YES it's him. There's also Sir John Freaking Cleese, Armin "Quark" Shimerman etc.
Don't forget my boy Qui, voiced by Captain K'nuckles
John Cleese doesn't have a knighthood. He doesn't even have an OBE, MBE or CBE.
What hooked me quite at the start of the game (back when the XBox was the latest gen console; I've played JadeEmpire there on a CRT TV) was actually the calm "trainee under a master with other trainees" setting, which I haven't encountered much before and since then. Trying now, I do not remember any bigger RPG of the last ten or so years with a similar start.
6:39 : Do you think I would talk about people behind their backs? I will-
Genuinely made me burst out laughing.
wait im so hyped for this video. as a kid i remember playing this and somehow finishing it with my short-attention span and it really opened my eyes to what games could be other than platformers and fps shooter
Jade Empire is one of my favorite games. All of the philosophy spread throughout the game had a huge influence on my psychological development towards my early 20s.
You forgot you could make a throuple as a male spirit monk with Dawn Star and Lian.
Legitimately one of my favorite games of all time. I spent many hours playing it back in 06-07. I just rebought it about 5 months ago and I wasn’t disappointed.
Seems you missed Kang the Mad’s backstory mission. I don’t blame you. I missed it for my first three playthroughs. It’s unreasonably well hidden.
seemed obvious to me... i mean all you have to do is the side quest he gives you, and then a puzzle with some items like twice. was his backstory the hardest to get to? yes, was it really that hard? no.
Halfbaked!?!? THIS GAME IS A MASTERPIECE
I know right?! Such a cynical gaming channel.
Agree with you
just because you like something doesn't mean you need to attach to it like it's the only thing in the world that matters and then be heartbroken when someone goes "yeah, it wasn't that great"
@@percher4824 ... clearly a joke, and isnt it ironic you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of?
@@miyawa21 ah yes, the classic "clearly a joke" comment that fails to understand that text is the absolute worst medium for sarcasm since it does not convey it in any way as everything that gets it across simply does not exist in such a crude form... unless it's hammed up to eleven so it can't be missed by even the densest of men
but alas, the fault *surely* lies in me for not divining that this singular comment of the millions of other ones exactly like it was different! oh, the folly! the hubris!
absolutely dying at the 1 second "Friends" theme clip 🤣
Literally just played this game a week ago I know I’m going to love hearing your thoughts about it
"do NOT do that again or will come" i can't even lol
the runescape reference
then the furry mounts me and turns me rock hard as well"
so much gold potential
HE NEVER MISSES just doordash food finish some college work and now after a bowl im in the clouds and my favorite youtuber drops a vid ima cry THATS WHY HE THE GOAT
I tell this story every time I see someone talking about this game. This was my first complete BioWare game. I was unaware of what I have come to call the BioWare Twist.
I got up to THAT part and I literally said to myself, “You know, I feel like it is 2 to 3 hours shorter than it should be, but this has been a fun journey. I’m glad I played this, even if it was short.” 10 minutes or less after all I could say to all involved is, “Okay! But how in the hell was I supposed to know?”
And now when I play I see it as very obvious because I understand more, and I keep getting pissed off because even it’s existence is foreshadowed by the phrase, “A weakness I cannot see perhaps?” There was a weakness in me and now I cannot be fooled because I have since fixed that weakness.
This game is still in my top 3 favorite games the others being Kotor and Oblivion
Edit: With Deaths Hand you can control him as a good guy or evil one but he feeds on your power so depending on your choices he will redeem himself or outgrow the armor and become something more terrifying
Thank you for the gift of a couple hours' pure happiness at work today. Jade Empire was my absolute favorite as a kid.
I really enjoyed this game. I was working at starbucks and a group of IT guys would all come in on their lunch breaks. We spent a couple week chatting with each other about character builds each time when i wasnt too busy.
I actually heard of BioWare when I was a kid because my dad used to be subscribed to Game Informer in the 00’s, and I saw a few mentions of it in different issues and it always piqued my interest.
I loved the evil ending just going full blown enslavement route on friends and enemies alike. 😮😂
Actually found this game by accident few years back after playing every bioware game from neverwinter night to mass effect 3 and only found out that they also made this game call jade empire while browsing a darn wikipedia page for bioware. Had no idea this gem even existed until then.
I love jade empire so much. Id kil for a 4k remake
34:42 that actually might be the funniest bit from any of your videos. 3 seconds of pure gold.
Thank you for trying out Jade Empire, Was looking forward for this video for a LONG time :)
SPOILER
I will NEVER forget how I nearly beat the game with putting not a single skill into the support area and then the boss to be immune to EVERYTHING except support
I am 100% a Jade empire fanboy, it was my second rpg ever as a kid.
Seeing your "harsh" review, I can only agree that most of my fond memories are because of my childlike inexperience and bad English understanding.
That being said, I would still love a Jade empire 2.
HALF BAKED! How dare you, I'm upset
Jade Empire is fully baked straight Indica.
"I can't believe drinking celestial blood while torturing the divine and bringing a permanent drought to the world ISN'T the good guy route..." - Salt after commenting on how obvious the choices like helping or fighting heaven w/ furries is.
Hey, Salt! I've been watching your videos religiously for the past couple of years. I'll watch them when you release a new one and they help me fall asleep. Thanks to you, I played and fell in love with the original Fallout games. Keep doing what your doing bro and thanks for the content!
I'm always blown away by the quality of your salty vocals. Man could read me the phonebook and it would be engrossing.
Keeping water dragon's corpse there would continue to mess with the spirits of the dead trying to go to afterlife. Also, I think the premise of the idea behind water dragon's actions is; she's a friggin goddess, she knows what's the best for the people, even though it might not seem that way from the limited perspective of mortals.
Yeah, I really think Salt went completely of the rails on that point. Of course messing with souls and the natural order of things is bad, duh. Also droughts were very common in China's history. It has nothing to do with if the water dragon wants one to be there or not. Them existing is part of nature and her not breaking the celestial rules to supply water to one single region of the whole world is completely understandable.
Something about the graphics and animation is so Fable 1 to me
Omg, I was hoping you would cover this. I had so much trouble with KotOR, but this game was so much easier to play and beat 85%. It's not perfect, but I do remember having a good time on the path of the open palm.
This game was so damn good as a kid when it came out man. You will never understand
I loved this game as a teen, but even then it felt tedious at times. You casually downplayed parts of it that horrified me back then, especially the haunted forest and the cannibals. At times, this game really shines at creating an atmosphere, like how the cannibals start as humans and then gradually decay in mind and body until they become these twisted abominations.
Death's hand had kind of a Darth Vader vibe going, which made him pretty cool, if by proxy.
The whole "you're the special chosen one" schtick made sense in a way because Master Li raised the character into believing s/he was fulfilling some kind of grand destiny which made sure s/he would never actually question him or what was going on in general.
I was also sort of disappointed in the lack of character for the Emperor, especially since he's the supposed big villian for most of the game. Also, I fail to feel bad for the water dragon. For a supposed god, she's not all that powerful really, just relegated to popping up here and there, talking cryptically and also slowly bleeding to death. I would really have liked to know how the brothers came up with the plan to beat a god of the supposed almighty celestial order and torture her for all eternity. And the celestial order didn't seem to care all that much seeing as not a single demon or spirit stood in the broother's way, only some measly monks which got slaughtered with no problem whatsoever. Funny how this and Avatar:The last airbender use the same premise of a technologically advanced but morally corrupt regime slaughtering harmless monks to some nefarious end^^
Lastly, a neat little detail: In the retrospective cutscene we see the third brother wielding the unneccesarily large anime sword. When we see the Death's Hand later he too wields the very same sword softly foreshadowing that twist.
radiant jen zi im so sorry that just fucking kills me every time lmaooo