I was really disappointed by Machin Shin in the show. It is one of my favorite aspects of the books (next to Shadar Logoth the highlights of EoTW) & the sting, the horror of it was completely taken out. I don't like they used it as a plot-device for what Rand apparently heard & Nyneave Mary Sue-ing and capable of keeping this at bay. I mean, why was this so scary? You heard horrible things about yourself? That doesn't exactly make anyone die or loose their soul. You cry and walk out. It isn't frighting anymore and that was such a blow.😢 The Ways themselves (and the Waygate) could have been explained a little better. Especially to why an Ogier was needed. The pillars as entry point were fine imo. If it would have been like in the books, it would have cost more CGI. I do understand how it would be difficult to depict the Ways themselves on TV, but... it felt small and off. Episode 7 was acceptable (the first scene amazing of course), but I wish they would have gone horror with the Ways instead of weak plot-device. Such a waste...
@@bloodmachinebutbloodier in the books machin shin attempts to devour Padan fain but spits him out, leaving his imprint on fain alongside the dark ones evil. This would imply they are seperate evils, alongside mashadar which is another evil that permeates fain.
Even though I missed the book version of the Black Wind's voice, screaming for blood and all, I loved what they did in the TV show. This was a great way to show what kind of thoughts the characters wanted to hide from themselves.
I know I need to watch this a couple more times, as I get so mesmerised by your voice and lovely graphics. OK but having said that - I really like the show's interpretation as they gave a lot of the 'feeling' of that darkness and narrow paths, but we could see enough of what was going on to enjoy it. I think there is going to be some good pay off too for Moiraine channeling to open the gate that will come, and I love that one still photo of Fain with the leaf - there is so much to look forward to in coming seasons! Your content is always worth waiting for!
Overall, I agree that the Ways in the show were portrayed pretty well! I almost just wish we would have gotten to spend more time in the Ways and gotten to hear a little more from Loial about their history and origin. The way Machin Shin talks to the characters was definitely a cool change (although it made it a little less scary perhaps). It makes me wonder how much of what Machin Shin said was true. Can the Black Wind truly see the inner-most thoughts of each character, or is it just lying and saying what it knows will cause them the most pain in order to torment them (I'm thinking specifically of Perrin here). It seems like we're supposed to take it at face value, but it was an opportunity for an unreliable narrator for sure. (P.S. Loved the music in this video!)
I had a bit of an issue with the way Waygates can be opened by channeling, but then we saw Fain travelling by using the Avendesora leaf so I breathed out in relief. It was a big stretch to assume all Ogier have to travel the Ways with a channeler next to them at all times. Other than that, I loved the Ways and Machin Shin. Having the Black Wind spout out your worst fears was a good choice, though I am sure some missed the far creepier vibes of the books.
If the Avendesora leaves were a ter'angreal the Ogier used, rather than part of the waygate itself, then it solves all the problems. The leaves could be stolen, for example, allowing the Shadowspawn access, and Pain could have one, and Aes Sedai could access through channeling but wouldn't keep the ter'angreal.
Honestly I preferred the original book dialogue of Machin Shin, the show's change was creative, but it didn't make me think of a corrupted entity. I could believe it would be capable of driving a person crazy, but the kind of crazy where you need a therapist and a hug afterwards, and I couldn't believe it could suck out your soul. However when I first heard the dialogue from the books (I listened to the audio books, because I don't have the time to read as much as would like) it sent literal (using the intended definition) shivers down my spine and I had to pause the books for a good few minutes because it made me feel that level of terror and fear that the characters experienced, if only for a brief period of time.
Great breakdown. They definitely captured the right atmosphere of the Ways and I wasn't too upset at the change of the Black Wind. However I did find leaving the horses behind the biggest issue. Where are the horses going? It may seem like a little thing to most people, but small details like this can take you out of a story. I saw the behind the scenes and no doubt they couldn't take the horses onto what they built. I'm sorry but they should have built something else and bigger. Also, there was a lack of extra paths and bridges shown. The amount of screentime given to the Ways was too short too. Despite the failings, I am overall happy that the Ways are in the show and no doubt we'll be visiting them again, where they could tweak a few things.
Re the horses, we are shown several shots of Lan and Moiraine whispering to Mandarb and Aldi ebbs letting them go. Presumably they lead the other horses back to the Tar Valon stables.
I feel like the impact of the Black Wind was lessened by having Nynaeve hold it back with Saidar. I wish that the voices they heard was just the "warning shots" and that they escaped before the Black Wind caught them.
I couldn't agree more. Machin Shin isn't frightening anymore. You can just hold it off with a shield, apparently, and even if you couldn't, what will happen? You cry? So a trip through the Ways means you could have a bad day, cry and then exit. No biggy. ;-( I had really hoped they would have used the horror of Machin Shin. Now it just became a plot-device (what Rand heard) and Nynevae Mary-Suing it. I really did love episodes 1 to 4, 7 to a lesser degree, but I wish they would have kept closer to the books when it comes to these kind of things (the frighting aspect of the world).
I personally hated the fact that they made the Ways being a method of travel triggered by the power, and once you said they cut a scene where Fain used it in a different way (with a key) I feel would have solved the issue. But then again these are the same show runners who chose to make Lews Therin the Dragon Reborn (not the Dragon), stripped him of the title of Tamyrlin, and somehow implied that they knew the Dark One would taint their power before attacking…
An additional reason to require channeling to open the ways unless you have an leave ter'angreal might be To use the ways in place of the Portal Stones. If Moiraine can't channel, Verin is not there, and Rand tries and fails to make the weave to open the ways properly, the 'mistake' could potentially make the waygate act like a Portal Stone without introducing a separate world transportation system.
I like this too! I feel like in the show it's possible the use of the leaf key isn't as well known. Maybe it's a secret kept by Ogier to keep people from using the Ways. It could be a twist that's revealed later on, which would explain why they didn't show Fain with the key in season 1.
@@purpleajah7425 Indeed. The Leaf keys for the Waygates also could have been something that had been stolen from the ogier, and we find that out in S2.
Wasn't too big on the shows version, I get why they did it but replacing the nightmare fueled screams with bullying didn't do it for me. I'd love to see an edited version of the scene from show with how it would sound from the books.
Interesting concept! You could take Rosamund Pike and Michael Kramer's readings from the audio books, blend and add in some audio effects and see where that gets you. It's an interesting concept and I wish I had the time and editing skill to work on it. Perhaps an exercise for another time with a bit more experience under my belt. One thing you will lose is the important exposition that MS is used for, which is critical for Rand's plot reveal.
I thought it was OK....But we only got a few minutes.... I thought they could have given more time to the journey to use as expository about a lot of the history & Lore... But TIME was the enemy by that point....I diggin your production though... It's gettin better with each offering..... Keep up the good work
I really like the new black wind, for all the reasons you mentioned. I think the architecture/geography of the ways didn’t land for me. I was really terrified during my first read through, the crumbling paper thin bridges, the bottomless drop, the islands that are above other islands. So creepy. I just didn’t get the same emotional hit from the adaptation. I’m hoping that in future seasons they can expand on it and bring more of the sense of dread.
The only thing I really disliked about the Ways in the show, is that Nyneave got another OP-moment from it. Along with the heal in Ep. 4 and defeating the trollocs in Ep. 8 (I know, technically Amalisa, but because of Nyneave's and Eggie's power), it's just too much OP moments for her and I feel this one was easy to avoid. Not saying the others couldn't have/shouldn't have been changed, but this could've been handled differently while getting the exact same result.
@@UnravelingthePattern I was being sarcastic as you mentioned it a few times in this video BUT, turns out I totally missed your ep7 deep dive, so I’m going to dive deep in to that after work. Keep up the great content buddy 👍🏻
@@havi19yt Haha, that's exactly why I mention old videos so much, especially that one. For some reason it hasn't gotten much traction, and since I don't have channel sponsors, I just constantly plug my own videos and recommend that people watch them all! I'm sorry I missed your sarcasm though, 😅
I don't mind the changes to the ways except for opening it with the power I don't mind the changes to MS except for Perrin and Rands fears being not supported by how their characters are supposed to be (Rands first VO anyway) I do wish Lioal had more of a part in the ways, it seems like they cut alot of him- despite saying we can either get alot of Lioal and him be short, or less of him and be tall. Seems like we got less and short Lioal tbh.
Yeah, I love Hammed's portrayal of Loial, but I hope he'll get more screen time and more chances for exposition in the future. I'm still on the fence about the makeup/costume choices... and I wish they'd made him larger using forced perspective.
Kinda wish they just picked an actor to finish Mat out, and then changed him again for the next season. I get it would be a bit confusing... but tbh, these changes they made to 7 and 8 are pretty shit lol
I think they didn't get a lot of warning and had to move forward with production. We're talking hundreds of people ready to work and millions of dollars invested. They probably weighed the options and realized it would be best for everyone to just write him out of the last two and deal with the fallout and recasting later. Still unsure if it was the right choice, but it sucks that one person put them in that position. Hopefully his reasons for leaving were good ones.
@@UnravelingthePattern yeah, they made a choice- but writing him out also would have taken huge amounts of time and changes. I am talking grab any actor you could tbh- maybe reduce the lines to just brooding Mat levels lol I guess if he just didn't show up? Anyways, the end product just wasn't very great- not sure if there was a better way to cut it or edit him out, but if they were going thus route I wish the execution was better. It is what it is though. Hopefully they can correct course for next season
What are the Ways and Machin Shin? Is it just a shortcut between points with a dangerous wind? No. The Ways are psychological torture. They are watching nervously your every footstep. They are feeling claustrophobic and terrified. They are the gut punch of seeing islands impossibly floating above other islands spanned by crumbling bridges. They are the darkest thoughts about going mad and losing your soul. They are the sense of dread that you might get lost and be trapped in this place forever. The actual shortcut and the actual wind are miniscule in comparison to the visceral psychological torture your mind puts you through in that place. The books nailed this feeling of dread. The show gave us the shortcut and the wind.
I really don't like the design of the way gates in the show. The description in the book is so pretty and the ability to open it without a key breaks can easily cause problems with future story lines
What do you think of the TV show's interpretation of the Ways, Waygates, and the Black Wind?
I was really disappointed by Machin Shin in the show. It is one of my favorite aspects of the books (next to Shadar Logoth the highlights of EoTW) & the sting, the horror of it was completely taken out. I don't like they used it as a plot-device for what Rand apparently heard & Nyneave Mary Sue-ing and capable of keeping this at bay. I mean, why was this so scary? You heard horrible things about yourself? That doesn't exactly make anyone die or loose their soul. You cry and walk out. It isn't frighting anymore and that was such a blow.😢
The Ways themselves (and the Waygate) could have been explained a little better. Especially to why an Ogier was needed. The pillars as entry point were fine imo. If it would have been like in the books, it would have cost more CGI. I do understand how it would be difficult to depict the Ways themselves on TV, but... it felt small and off. Episode 7 was acceptable (the first scene amazing of course), but I wish they would have gone horror with the Ways instead of weak plot-device. Such a waste...
99% disappointed. writers don't know how to read, which i always found odd.
I always believed Machin Shin was something like an once pure Saidin AI guiding travelers through the Ways, now utterly corrupted.
Love this theory!
is machin shin separate from the dark one's evil?
@@bloodmachinebutbloodier in the books machin shin attempts to devour Padan fain but spits him out, leaving his imprint on fain alongside the dark ones evil. This would imply they are seperate evils, alongside mashadar which is another evil that permeates fain.
The quality keeps on increasing!! I liked your choice of music used while explaining, it did really make the world more compelling!
Even though I missed the book version of the Black Wind's voice, screaming for blood and all, I loved what they did in the TV show. This was a great way to show what kind of thoughts the characters wanted to hide from themselves.
I know I need to watch this a couple more times, as I get so mesmerised by your voice and lovely graphics. OK but having said that - I really like the show's interpretation as they gave a lot of the 'feeling' of that darkness and narrow paths, but we could see enough of what was going on to enjoy it. I think there is going to be some good pay off too for Moiraine channeling to open the gate that will come, and I love that one still photo of Fain with the leaf - there is so much to look forward to in coming seasons!
Your content is always worth waiting for!
Great video! Really looking forward to your in-depth look at The Blight. There aren’t many videos out there about it.
Overall, I agree that the Ways in the show were portrayed pretty well! I almost just wish we would have gotten to spend more time in the Ways and gotten to hear a little more from Loial about their history and origin. The way Machin Shin talks to the characters was definitely a cool change (although it made it a little less scary perhaps). It makes me wonder how much of what Machin Shin said was true. Can the Black Wind truly see the inner-most thoughts of each character, or is it just lying and saying what it knows will cause them the most pain in order to torment them (I'm thinking specifically of Perrin here). It seems like we're supposed to take it at face value, but it was an opportunity for an unreliable narrator for sure. (P.S. Loved the music in this video!)
I had a bit of an issue with the way Waygates can be opened by channeling, but then we saw Fain travelling by using the Avendesora leaf so I breathed out in relief. It was a big stretch to assume all Ogier have to travel the Ways with a channeler next to them at all times. Other than that, I loved the Ways and Machin Shin. Having the Black Wind spout out your worst fears was a good choice, though I am sure some missed the far creepier vibes of the books.
If the Avendesora leaves were a ter'angreal the Ogier used, rather than part of the waygate itself, then it solves all the problems. The leaves could be stolen, for example, allowing the Shadowspawn access, and Pain could have one, and Aes Sedai could access through channeling but wouldn't keep the ter'angreal.
@Day it may have more in S2 where it matters.
Honestly I preferred the original book dialogue of Machin Shin, the show's change was creative, but it didn't make me think of a corrupted entity. I could believe it would be capable of driving a person crazy, but the kind of crazy where you need a therapist and a hug afterwards, and I couldn't believe it could suck out your soul. However when I first heard the dialogue from the books (I listened to the audio books, because I don't have the time to read as much as would like) it sent literal (using the intended definition) shivers down my spine and I had to pause the books for a good few minutes because it made me feel that level of terror and fear that the characters experienced, if only for a brief period of time.
This, exactly this!
Great breakdown. They definitely captured the right atmosphere of the Ways and I wasn't too upset at the change of the Black Wind. However I did find leaving the horses behind the biggest issue. Where are the horses going? It may seem like a little thing to most people, but small details like this can take you out of a story. I saw the behind the scenes and no doubt they couldn't take the horses onto what they built. I'm sorry but they should have built something else and bigger. Also, there was a lack of extra paths and bridges shown. The amount of screentime given to the Ways was too short too. Despite the failings, I am overall happy that the Ways are in the show and no doubt we'll be visiting them again, where they could tweak a few things.
Re the horses, we are shown several shots of Lan and Moiraine whispering to Mandarb and Aldi ebbs letting them go. Presumably they lead the other horses back to the Tar Valon stables.
As always a top notch video, well worth the wait. I also loved the background music❣
Love your videos, the production quality is always top notch.
I feel like the impact of the Black Wind was lessened by having Nynaeve hold it back with Saidar. I wish that the voices they heard was just the "warning shots" and that they escaped before the Black Wind caught them.
I couldn't agree more. Machin Shin isn't frightening anymore. You can just hold it off with a shield, apparently, and even if you couldn't, what will happen? You cry? So a trip through the Ways means you could have a bad day, cry and then exit. No biggy. ;-(
I had really hoped they would have used the horror of Machin Shin. Now it just became a plot-device (what Rand heard) and Nynevae Mary-Suing it. I really did love episodes 1 to 4, 7 to a lesser degree, but I wish they would have kept closer to the books when it comes to these kind of things (the frighting aspect of the world).
Good call on ths inspiration for the gates - I bet if we dug through their social media we would see so much pop up!
I personally hated the fact that they made the Ways being a method of travel triggered by the power, and once you said they cut a scene where Fain used it in a different way (with a key) I feel would have solved the issue. But then again these are the same show runners who chose to make Lews Therin the Dragon Reborn (not the Dragon), stripped him of the title of Tamyrlin, and somehow implied that they knew the Dark One would taint their power before attacking…
An additional reason to require channeling to open the ways unless you have an leave ter'angreal might be To use the ways in place of the Portal Stones. If Moiraine can't channel, Verin is not there, and Rand tries and fails to make the weave to open the ways properly, the 'mistake' could potentially make the waygate act like a Portal Stone without introducing a separate world transportation system.
I could get behind this.
I like this too! I feel like in the show it's possible the use of the leaf key isn't as well known. Maybe it's a secret kept by Ogier to keep people from using the Ways. It could be a twist that's revealed later on, which would explain why they didn't show Fain with the key in season 1.
@@purpleajah7425 Indeed. The Leaf keys for the Waygates also could have been something that had been stolen from the ogier, and we find that out in S2.
Wasn't too big on the shows version, I get why they did it but replacing the nightmare fueled screams with bullying didn't do it for me. I'd love to see an edited version of the scene from show with how it would sound from the books.
Interesting concept! You could take Rosamund Pike and Michael Kramer's readings from the audio books, blend and add in some audio effects and see where that gets you.
It's an interesting concept and I wish I had the time and editing skill to work on it. Perhaps an exercise for another time with a bit more experience under my belt.
One thing you will lose is the important exposition that MS is used for, which is critical for Rand's plot reveal.
I thought it was OK....But we only got a few minutes.... I thought they could have given more time to the journey to use as expository about a lot of the history & Lore... But TIME was the enemy by that point....I diggin your production though... It's gettin better with each offering..... Keep up the good work
I really like the new black wind, for all the reasons you mentioned. I think the architecture/geography of the ways didn’t land for me. I was really terrified during my first read through, the crumbling paper thin bridges, the bottomless drop, the islands that are above other islands. So creepy. I just didn’t get the same emotional hit from the adaptation. I’m hoping that in future seasons they can expand on it and bring more of the sense of dread.
Totally agree
The only thing I really disliked about the Ways in the show, is that Nyneave got another OP-moment from it. Along with the heal in Ep. 4 and defeating the trollocs in Ep. 8 (I know, technically Amalisa, but because of Nyneave's and Eggie's power), it's just too much OP moments for her and I feel this one was easy to avoid. Not saying the others couldn't have/shouldn't have been changed, but this could've been handled differently while getting the exact same result.
I liked the idea of the wind speaking to each person, sharing their deepest fears. It was highly affected. But, was Loial not affected?
Perhaps he was affected but we just didn't see it?
"You are too young to be out in the world and you know it. Your mother will find you and marry you off to the first Ogier girl she can."🤣
Did you do an episode 7 deep dive?
Yes, it came out last week!
@@UnravelingthePattern I was being sarcastic as you mentioned it a few times in this video BUT, turns out I totally missed your ep7 deep dive, so I’m going to dive deep in to that after work.
Keep up the great content buddy 👍🏻
@@havi19yt Haha, that's exactly why I mention old videos so much, especially that one. For some reason it hasn't gotten much traction, and since I don't have channel sponsors, I just constantly plug my own videos and recommend that people watch them all! I'm sorry I missed your sarcasm though, 😅
@@UnravelingthePattern it’s all good buddy. I watched it and it was at your usual high standard of content.
I haven't watched the show yet, but the hexaganl coloms looks like basalt crystals that you might see neare a beah.
I don't mind the changes to the ways except for opening it with the power
I don't mind the changes to MS except for Perrin and Rands fears being not supported by how their characters are supposed to be (Rands first VO anyway)
I do wish Lioal had more of a part in the ways, it seems like they cut alot of him- despite saying we can either get alot of Lioal and him be short, or less of him and be tall. Seems like we got less and short Lioal tbh.
Yeah, I love Hammed's portrayal of Loial, but I hope he'll get more screen time and more chances for exposition in the future. I'm still on the fence about the makeup/costume choices... and I wish they'd made him larger using forced perspective.
@@UnravelingthePattern Yep- and give the ogier some long eye brows dammit!
Flesh so fine
Kinda wish they just picked an actor to finish Mat out, and then changed him again for the next season.
I get it would be a bit confusing... but tbh, these changes they made to 7 and 8 are pretty shit lol
I think they didn't get a lot of warning and had to move forward with production. We're talking hundreds of people ready to work and millions of dollars invested. They probably weighed the options and realized it would be best for everyone to just write him out of the last two and deal with the fallout and recasting later. Still unsure if it was the right choice, but it sucks that one person put them in that position. Hopefully his reasons for leaving were good ones.
@@UnravelingthePattern yeah, they made a choice- but writing him out also would have taken huge amounts of time and changes.
I am talking grab any actor you could tbh- maybe reduce the lines to just brooding Mat levels lol
I guess if he just didn't show up? Anyways, the end product just wasn't very great- not sure if there was a better way to cut it or edit him out, but if they were going thus route I wish the execution was better.
It is what it is though. Hopefully they can correct course for next season
Original Matt was replaced he didn't walk off..
What are the Ways and Machin Shin? Is it just a shortcut between points with a dangerous wind? No. The Ways are psychological torture. They are watching nervously your every footstep. They are feeling claustrophobic and terrified. They are the gut punch of seeing islands impossibly floating above other islands spanned by crumbling bridges. They are the darkest thoughts about going mad and losing your soul. They are the sense of dread that you might get lost and be trapped in this place forever.
The actual shortcut and the actual wind are miniscule in comparison to the visceral psychological torture your mind puts you through in that place.
The books nailed this feeling of dread. The show gave us the shortcut and the wind.
I really don't like the design of the way gates in the show. The description in the book is so pretty and the ability to open it without a key breaks can easily cause problems with future story lines
I don't hat them, but I agree that the description in the books is way better.
Is incorrect to spell "candi" with English sylab, you must call it candi with "chee" instead "c" in word "can"
I still can’t understand how poorly the show mess up Machin Shin