Solomie Amanuel Agreed. I liked the movie a lot but I feel like Marvel was trying way to hard to get the audience to actually like Thor. I hope in the future Taika Waititi eases off on the humor when he starts working on the sequel.
This is why I like marvel fans. They don't go around acting like marvel movies are a masterpiece that nobody understands or gets. They admit the flaws and have a good time anyway.
Zach Gerrity Idk which marvel fans your talking to, i’ve met plenty of marvel apologists that can’t handle criticism, some of them being friends of mine even.
Definitely the best Marvel film this year. Guardians and Thor couldn't baleance the comedy with drama, but Spider-Man did it excellently. Black Panther looks like a much more serious film, and I hope Infinity War manages to strike the perfect balance.
People keep getting the wrong end of the stick with Thor: Ragnarok and it's starting to become frustrating. Marvel Studios enjoys trying to blend genres together, at least they say they do. Everyone raves about how winter soldier was 'A superhero film but it was a political thriller.' Thor Ragnarok was a comedy film. As soon as I heard Taika Waititi was directing, that basically confirmed it. They were doing a superhero film but it is also a comedy. Not just having lighthearted scenes and a few jokes like most Marvel films, a solid comedy start to finish. I think people need to think differently when watching it. Watch it as if its a comedy.
totally agree. and I generally enjoyed it so much. i also didn't really expect the jokes coming all the time, but that might be cause i'm not as much a film critic as Jack.. idk. in fact, the only joke that sort of annoyed me was when they made fun of "the sun's going down"
James Court that's actually a fresh take. Knowing who directs each film and what the trailers include should determine what genre film the audience should go in expecting to watch.
I agree. I really like that they're stepping out of the superhero genre and giving it more depth and nuance. It isn't just a super hero film with another big bad to defeat. It's more than that - it's a character driven comedy that propels Thor's development forward. Like... It's both. Just like the comics have so often been.
Now that you mentioned it, I realised it is one of Marvel’s problem. Before watching this video, I couldn’t pinpoint what exactly this whole thing is but I did feel that some jokes didn’t hit me as hard as it supposed to because I expected it. Hmmmm... That being said, I do agree that Ragnarok is really fun and I really enjoyed watching it. I’m planning to watch it again tomorrow. (It’s not everyday you’ll find me willing to pay TWICE to see the same film. Hahahaha.)
This is the most honest and accurate review I've seen. I also didn't like a few other things like, the fact that they made the destruction of Asgard THOR'S FUCKING HOME, into a joke for Korg. I felt like that took too much away from the scene. I should've felt something in that moment, pain, loss or whatever. It wasn't there. Ragnarok does this a lot, it pulls you out of several moments for slapstick comedy and I don't like it. But it genuinly is a fun movie that actually made me give a shit about Thor.
I don't remember who originally commented this but they basically wanted two scenes which were emotional: Odin's death and when Asgard was blown up. The first one I could sort of understand why they didn't linger on to for too long seeing that it was just the beginning of the movie but I totally agree with you. It would have been a nice shift in tone if they stayed serious while the whole blowing up happened. They could go back to joking in the next scene no problem
I get that the director wanted to do a light hearted comedy, but I think he needed to realize dedicated fans also love the emotional arcs in marvel so we care about the fictional characters.SPOILERS: I did appreciate the sentimental end when Thor would have given Loki a hug if he actually was there and he WAS!!!
To think Ragnarok was supposed to be about the End of Days for the Gods, the darkest moment and it's like no let's make jokes and let's ourselves create Ragnarok. Oh and btw, no Asgardians were hurt in the making of this movie. This could have been the ultimate fight but it wasn't.
I completely agree with these points, I've been feeling, sort of since ant man, that marvel are getting too smart for themselves, like the way in which they break the norm (their anti-chliché, if you will) is becoming predictable. What's wrong with a classic superhero movie every once in a while?
The thing is marvel movies are actually comedy first and action/drama second. That's why it's worked so well other than the fact that marvel movies are just made brilliantly. You strip away the brand "marvel" from the movies and it'd still be enjoyable because it excels at just being a movie, you know with great script, character depth, coherence and a plot that actually makes sense. And honestly i don't mind the jokes at all, because like i said it's a comedy movie. They make great sentimental/drama as well. The end bits of civil war had me feeling really sad. Yes it's not perfect but it's not cheap or trash or half-assed either. I'm just glad that marvel puts in time and effort and gives the directors creative control and freedom with their movies. And all the while giving the fans what they want as well. So yea it's a win win situation.
Here we are 6 years after this video, and it FINALLY feels like mainstream audiences are starting realize this. It’s a shame it took this long, but I’m glad it’s happening.
I didn't really like Thor Ragnarok, i thought it tried too hard to be guardians of the galaxy. I mean, yeah it was funny and all, but i thought it lost a bit of its purpose as a superhero movie, it was like the movie was already a "scary movie" type parody of itself. I love stupid jokes, i love comedy and there is totally a place for that in a super hero movie, but it just takes so much away from the "real" moments in it, just like you said, you can't really connect to it.
I think spiderman homecoming had a nice mix. Moments like Happy in the bathroom being interrupted are subversions, but the moment of Peter lifting the rubble, or him in the car with vulture are legitimate
I saw the film with two friends that aren't superhero fans. They found it amazing; I think because they just saw it as a comedy film. I was pretty disappointed. I thought it was going to be a superhero film, but I left in the same mindset that I leave comedies... it was rather disappointing.
I think Movie Bob does a good job at explaining why Ragnarok works so well and why the jokes that follow the serious moments actually add to the movie and the overall ideas in the flick.
Totally agree. These are people jumping around in costumes and yeah, that's an inherently funny thing, but making light of that shouldn't compromise the sincerity that can/should lie at the heart of these stories
your argument is sound and valid, but, only if you don't take into account 1. its a Thor movie (with regards to the subversion of expectations in Ragnarok ) and so plays into the previous history with Thor as both a character in the cinematic universe and comics, as well as Thor as a filmic trilogy. 2.That the addition of levity actually goes some way to humanise Thor and as such helps make him a more relatable character than he had been before. 3. That there are actual moments of brevity. Ones that feel stronger because they build upon jokes or previous humorous moments. Skurge's moment of self sacrifice actually playing into one of the earliest jokes in the film. Or building a character for the Hulk through moments that are both funny and help to highlight his humanity. Like a temperamental child with friends. We laugh because we recognise the anger, not as huger rage monster but scared, lonely, and built from a love. "You're not the god of hammers" is at all times both a joke and not a joke. As for the other Marvel movies, aside from the guardians series, most have very little humour. At all times they feel like elements that build each characters humanity and help ground them a little more. Doctor Strange's clothes are ridiculous, if he doesn't naturally address it someone else probably will. Peter, Tony, Scott all have personalities where humour or one liners are there to cover for nerves or weaknesses. They do or say intentionally or unintentionally funny things as a consequence of their personalities and the situations they are in. Captain America: Winter Soldier isn't remembered as an overtly comical film, but the "on your left" opening is essentially a jokey moment. It's just not played overly so. For what it's worth I suspect that after 17 films and with the Avengers Infinity war opener coming up. Things are about to become quite a bit more weighty and this string of more light hearted fare is a deliberate plan to allow some breathing room before things become a lot less laugh out loud. I don't think we should see a total removing of the universes humorous leanings, but much much less.
Totally agree! I think the second Guardians of the Galaxy movie did a great job with the balance of comedy to serious moments, and Thor kind of...didn't? Like, I love Thor with all my heart, but a lot of the stuff just fell flat. Except for the rock guy -- he's my favorite. The one part that was sweet and that I don't think they did ruin with a stupid joke was the ending, when Loki walks into Thor's room, and Thor throws that cap at him. That had been done before, two or three times, and it was getting old. But when it happened the last time and Loki actually caught it, it really struck a chord with me and I almost started crying. But yes! I totally agree with you.
General idea is on point BUT that "Sun's getting low" moment is a bad example...THAT was one of the best/funniest moments to me and was perfectly set up. It was Thor clumsily trying out a method Black Widow could only pull off with Hulk, in effort to try to calm his needed ally down. I don't think it should have been viewed as a "dramatic" moment turned comedic....it was comedic from the start and while I called it that Hulk was gonna yoke him around LOL it still delivered to me. I thought it was a brilliant callback to the last time we saw Hulk.
This is why I love homecoming so much it lets itself be sincere you care so much about peter Parker especially the scene under the rubble I don’t think we get anything like that in many marvel movies yet it was still probably one of the funniest ones
i always liked that Marvel seemed to be a bit more humorous about telling their stories than most others. "superheroes" is one of my favourite genres in films, but i don't like it when they're done overly action-y and serious (ex. Man of Steel), so i always appreciated Marvel's more light yet upbeat approach to them. but i definitely agree with what you're saying, they're far overdoing it now and turned it into a big re-appearing stunt rather than a way of storytelling. i love Marvel's characters, i care about them and am emotionally invested. so though i like a good laugh, sometimes i do just want to sit there and cry my eyes out at a scene!
I haven't seen it yet. Tried to but when my dad and I got into the theater the reel was faulty so we couldn't see it. So I'm gonna have to wait to watch this haha
Spider man homecoming did a good job mixing the comedy but making it serious.I was invested with the villains dialogue because Peter was actually frightened and scared.He didn't talk over him.
I think this is wonderfully well put and so far, you're just about the ONLY UA-camr I've found who I can relate to on all my film & tv opinions! Keep it up.
If you're impressed with this channel, you might be even more impressed with the channel entitled "Just Write." That guy made pretty much the same point about Doctor Strange and he has a lot of more interesting things to say about movies.
I agree completely. As a comedy, Ragnarok was great. I wasn't able to put a name on why it felt a little awkward but you summarized it perfectly! However, I also feel the MCU as a whole has to be balanced because Ragnarok is just one movie in a studio that's already put out over a dozen movies in the same overarching storyline. Especially with Black Panther (which I believe will be rather serious) and Infinity War (which I'm guessing will be emotionally devastating) coming out in the future, Ragnarok had to provide some fun. However, I feel as if the "Asgard blowing up" scene should have been more emotional. But I also feel as though the scenes with Hela ravaging and destroying Asgard were emotional. Heimdall protecting the refugees, Thor being able to see the state of his homeland, the people that went down fighting- those were the parts that made me emotionally invested in the movie. They don't actually stick out much in the first viewing, though (I watched the movie three times, haha!). It's also that we weren't really invested in Asgard in the first place? They seemed rather prissy and stuck-up in the first two movies and there was no real connection with them so I guess it's destruction wouldn't have added emotion. I mean, if Earth blew up, we'd be devastated, which is an understatement. But we also have a deeply personal connection with the planet. I would have liked to see something like that on the refugees' part- the people's reactions hurt more than the planet being destroyed. Also, this comment is sort of all over the place but I hope I got my point across.
I really agree, Thor was my favorite, I really don't know why. I think it was just because back during his origin it was the most different compared to others. So I came into Ragnarok excited to finally see Thor again and see his story and while I enjoyed the movie and had fun, I just kinda left the movie with a feeling that I can only describe as "What's the point". I just watched movies with characters that I loved but I didn't really understand why I felt like I should love them so much. I didn't really understand why I felt that way until I watched this video, thanks Jack.
I really wish I found your channel earlier-years earlier, you're brilliant and your videos are about the exact stuff I've wanted to discuss and gush over. I'm surprised I'm only now discovering you.❤
I go to the cinema a lot and Ragnorok was one of the best go in have a good time, bit of escapism I've seen in a while, not quite as good as the Lego ninjago film but it's just nice to walk in a building and come out feeling g better than you did a couple hours ago.
I've seen a lot of talk about Marvel’s tone problem recently, even before Thor, and I'm not really sure how I feel. It definitely bothers me when what should be a sincere or exciting moment is undercut by a joke - part of why we watch superhero movies is to root for the hero and get excited. "Come on peter, come on spiderman" was a great scene because it was played completely straight, and that's important. With Ragnarok, though, the "subversive" jokes didn't bother me. Maybe the Hulk scene did a little bit, but certainly not as much as it would've in other Marvel movies. What's different, I think, about Ragnarok, is that where other movies strive for emotion that doesn't balance well with the jokes and leaves the audience uncomfortable, Ragnarok doesn't ask for much emotional investment. Like GotG (though that's more clearly marketed as a comedy), it opens with a joke, and the audience knows what to expect from there. We still get to see Thor kick ass without falling on his face, and the more emotional moments are given enough weight, but overall the tone feels consistent and comfortable.
I totally agree with you. Thor Ragnarok was the first film where it really stood out. I call this the 'Deadpool' filter. It felt like they wanted to use that same kind of humour, because that's popular. I honestly think Deadpool 2 will feel weird now. The strong part about Deadpool was that they made fun of typical superhero movies. Now that the movies do that themselves, there's nothing left to parody. It felt like I was watching a human trying to be a hero, instead of an actual god being a god (like, why all the fuss about not touching his hair? It has never been a problem before)
I totally agree with you! I loved the jokes in Ragnarok and I laughed at most of them but I agree about the emotional detachment. You referenced the "Suns going down" gag and my god they ripped the piss out of that. It just kept going on. There completely needs to be a balance between the jokes and the emotional moments. One I'm glad they didn't make into a joke is *SPOILER ALERT* at the end where Loki catches the ball (or whatever it is that Thor throws!) and says "I'm here" I wasn't expecting that and it was nice! More of that Marvel, please!
I'm a bit late on this but I really loved Thor Ragnarok and didn't really tire of the subversion of expectations and jokes because I don't really watch all the Marvel movies so I'm not really used to it. I think I like it also because I watched it from the perspective of someone who wanted to see a cool 80s inspired Sci Fi - Fantasy and thats exactly what I got with some great jokes thrown in.
I think you're right. The only problem with the idea that Marvel shound evolve it's sense of humor is that the formula is working pretty well for them. I really don't have faith that studios will take too many risks. For example I don't think they'd want Taika Waititi to direct the next Thor but I don't think they'd let him write it. Marvel has been pushing boundries a bit over the years but I don't think we should expect a major change any time soon. They'd have to work their way towards that over the next few years. I also give most of Marvels faults a pass because I don't hold studio movies to super high standards.
I agree with everything you said except the part about the opening gag with the chain turning. I saw Thor twice and both times the joke actually got funnier for the audience.
I agree with this completely! I loved the film because it was such a Taika-Kiwi film and I'm from New Zealand so that was incredible, but almost every joke I called beforehand, especially Bruce jumping out of the ship. I think even the scene at the beginning seemed to be the SAME shot, of Thor spinning round ? Or at least so similar that I as a film student went "ah they've used the same shot twice that's not great". Overall great movie, but I agree with you about the jokes.
this is a really great point. I think this explains why Ragnarok was both a really good movie in its own right, but kind of frustrating as an edition to the MCU. I have said this many times, but I loved Ragnarok when (and only when) I let go of what I wanted from the film and appreciated it for what it was.
I started watching this thinking i was gonna be mad and then jack said the bit about banner falling out of the plane and not turning into the hulk and I totally got it because I knew that was gonna happen whilst it was happening also. Thor was a comedy rather than an action, thriller, comic movie which it really could've been. I agree. I cared less about the characters by the end of the film. When Asgard fell apart where normally I would've cried (cause am a big baby) I couldn't have gave two shits which kind of disconnected me from that moment. Love the film, but your criticisms were bang on.
If we're talking about Thor: Ragnarok, the one that felt out of place for me is Thor screaming when he's going through the tunnel and when he's about to get his hair cut by Stan Lee. It just felt out of character: A guy who can stand up to giants and demons can scream like a little girl at those moments? A manly scream is maybe acceptable, but a squeaky one is just felt like a blooper that they accidentally left in.
Completely agree. Marvel very rarely lets scenes breathe without injecting a joke and it gets so frustrating. I feel like its almost like Marvel's trying SO hard to be different than DC's more darker tone, thus making them go so overboard
The problem with referencing your own persona experience on something (i.e. 'feeling the energy change in your theater and the joke falling flat) is that it's easily countered with the fact that I remember the audience laughing as hard if not harder the 2nd time he turned around. Not really a proper support for a point.
Imagine Spider-man 2... Doc Oc just kidnapped MJ, and Peter finally gets his power back... his fist clenched powerfully... epic music.... And then... a fart.
I love this, just watched the Thor movie and hopped straight onto UA-cam the moment it finished to hear your thoughts. I watch these films and sometimes things don’t sit right but I can never put it into words and then you do a review and im like “Yes thank you that’s what I was thinking”. So please continue to do these or I’ll have my thoughts stuck in my mind forever unable to put them into words
Agreed, in fact it hindered my enjoyment of Avengers at the time as well. Its a shame the Marvel movies don't take themselves more seriously. Ironically, the Guardians movies seem to be the most resonant by virtue of having a different brand of humor.
I feel like the Marvel joke problem is the one aspect of the films that puts me off. Avengers Assemble started this revolution with jokes in the MCU, with Iron Man 3, Guardians 1 and Ant-Man. Following, but Ant-Man became the movie were I was like, ok, now there are too many jokes. Doctor Strange sort of had this promlem, with Guardians 2, Homecoming and Ragnorok truly taken advantage. Iron man 1, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, the first avenger, the dark world, Winter solider, civil war and Black Panther don’t really have this problem. My favorite MCU movies are the ones that aren’t cluster with jokes, I.e, Winter Soilder, Civil War. But yea, Marvel after Infinity War need to find a balance.
I also liked the movie which suprisingly was a stepup to my expectation despite it being filled with jokes and gags to the brim. What I didn't like was 1) how it basically was supposed to showcase the destruction of an entire world and the threat to it's people which never had any true weight even to the end and 2) how cool I thought the prospect of Hela was and she starts manifesting all these blades out of nothing and switching the hairstyle over and over. And Korg, to me he's so out of place that everything people who hate JarJar Binks say, I could directly place on him. Lastly, (I don't know really, we'll get to see in the future I suppose) as Banner said he feared turning into hulk as he may "take over" permanently, I'm curious if that jumping on the bridge bit was a joke as well as showcasing Bruce Banners death now being only Hulk. Whichever way I liked that.
I adore the MCU. Homecoming and Guardians Vol. 2 exceeded my expectations in every way. But Thor: Ragnarok? Good lord, it was a mess. Exemplified everything wrong with Marvel, which they had (up to now) been doing a good job of refining.
I mean you’ve titled this ‘the problem with marvel’ but you’ve only really examined Thor Ragnarok. I still agree with you though. There are just jokes that weren’t appropriately timed... Like Thor repeating “suns getting real low” Or the very last joke from Korg “oh no he’s dead, I stepped on him and felt so bad I’ve been carrying him, oh he’s alive!...”
Couldn't agree more! The Avengers was one of my favorite cinema experiences ever... three times. The humor was PERFECT. Thor Ragnarok didn't come anywhere near that, pretty much all the jokes felt forced and predictable.
I'm so glad somebody else had this view of Ragnarok, when I saw it it wasn't even halfway through when I realized I wasn't going to enjoy the rest of it. I didn't have a BAD time, I just didn't like how it decided to keep being funny instead of giving us any good character/plot moments (the Hulk/bridge moment is my go-to complaint and I'm really glad you mentioned it too). It felt like the movie didn't care about the characters or plot outside of using them to make jokes and almost made fun of us for expecting/wanting a "cool moment" and overall I didn't like it.
You've hit the nail on the head! I wanted to love this movie...And I didn't mind some of the jokes. But they became such a constant that even the "epic" scenes got lost in constant "Eh, we made a funny. Did you see that? Laugh!" It was trying to be something else, maybe they wanted the humor of the Guardians? But given the context, the characters, our relationship with Thor and his growth thus far, it felt forced and dishonest.
I felt care toward the hulk and Thor due to the characters built over various recent movies, but I agree completely with your notions in this video! Which is made clear by the fact that I loved this movie but built zero "care" for the character valkyrie because of the comedic air over the whole film.
SPOILERS COMING UP! Totally agree. By the end of the movie they had their emotional climax, when Asgard is destroyed, I actually felt it, even though I had previously never cared much about Asgard. The built up to that moment was very well put together. Only to be ruined by a joke by Korg. The joke didn't work because it felt like the writers were not sure if the sequence worked emotionally. Like they were unsure whether I was emotionally invested or not. And so they made a joke in case I wasn't. But I kinda was. And the joke immediately pulled me out of that genuine connection and pushed me away.
Fortunately, Black Panther is next, and I think Black Panther will be a very serious film like Iron Man or the Winter Soldier. Because Feige has been very respectful to the characters and T'Challa is NOT a snarky joker (Neither was Thor but hey, they tried twice and it didn't work).
Thor has been a funny character in the past, just depends on what you're reading but they definitely went for a golden age Thor with Ragnarok and it worked best. As for Black Panther, he has never been funny as far as I'm aware, but his supporting cast has (E.g Agent Ross).
I can't even remember the last Marvel film I saw. I've only seen the Iron Man and Avenger films, I think. Superhero movies don't really appeal to me, because they're not about the genuine human condition. Checkout "Super Dark Times", Jack. It has a "kids on bikes" look/plot, but it's actually a very dark and grim coming of age film. It takes place in that pre-columbine era in the 1990's. I highly recommend it.
100% agree with you on Ragnarok. There was a ton of the raving about how funny it was, but I really thought they took the humor too far. And I didn't like how callously and unceremoniously Volstagg and Fandral of The Warriors Three' were dispatched. So much death and destruction got glossed over for cheap gags that I found it off-putting. In the end, I felt like Wattiti could not have cared less about these characters, which makes me not want him involved with future projects.
I thought one of the most stand-up moments of badly placed humour in Thor:Ragnarok was when Korg made the "foundations" joke as Asgard exploded. I felt that while that joke was definitely very funny, it removed any emotion from the scene where Thor's (and almost everybody else on the ship) planet got destroyed
I came into this video thinking oh god but you put into words the issue I had with Thor completely. I couldn’t figure out why I wasn’t wholly invested and honestly this is why, I actually thought the fight scene on the bridge was the best part because there was minimal jokes (that I can remember). I hated that banner jumped out and hit the bridge because I wanted that super hero landing!!!
i kinda agree with you on this. i thought it was a brilliant movie, but some of the moments, for example when they did the "my chain is turning me around" joke for the second time, were a bit too much.
I totally understand your point of view and that's right that with the second spin of thor chained it was like ... meh. But I think i'm totally naive because i was absolutely certain that banner would turn to hulk at the bridge scene ... Maybe i get too emotionnal ... or maybe you don't :/ But i did blow a kiss at the end ;)
When I saw the title I thought “what this guy know about marvel to say that they have a big problem” but then I watched and now I think I’m going to sub
Yeah, pretty much. I think that when Marvel makes fun of itself, it is undermining its own sincerity and its own reason for existing. When I watch deadpool, I do not expect a serious plot that I will care about, because Deadpool doesn't care about it. When I watch Thor, I do expect that, because the characters, for the most part, buy in to their own story. Until they don't? So yeah, I think a halfway house between "sincere heroism" and "make fun of heroes" doesn't work, or won't work in the long run.
Loved this video, it absolutely 100% vocalises all of my feelings about the MCU. There's no room for sincerity. The two Thor movies prior - though not any real critical success - were some of the more sincere films in the MCU and gave Thor some classically heroic moments, especially in the first, when Thor learned what it meant to be worthy. Ragnarok turned this on it's head and felt like a bit of a sting to me, having been emotionally invested in the characters beforehand. Ragnarok was enjoyable, and I'm a huge fan of Taika Watiti but - I know I'm in the minority - Ragnarok was far from the satisfying conclusion to Thor's character I was hoping for.
I feel the same about Thors character development in this one, it lacked emotional depth and felt very rushed if not forced at certain points of the film I tried but couldn't really make myself care about him or any characters for that matter. I did however appreciate Watitis approach to Thor in general, the broody moody corner he's been put into lately just didn't quite fit him (yes even though he was concerned for asgard etc etc) Maybe I'll just have to see it again in order to pick up on more subtle actions or indicated traits of character but atm I'm a bit "meh" about his progression, I did enjoy the movie as a whole though it's not bad but I don't see the "masterpiece" people make it out to be
i agree with your point about marvel as a whole playing up the jokes when id rather they take the characters seriously and honestly that might be a reason they got Waititi to direct thor ragnarok, but i read this interesting article the other day about the film and it’s ties to Māori culture which i think gives a better understanding and more depth as to why ragnarok is structure the way it is, particularly the last section about Māori humour thespinoff.co.nz/atea/31-10-2017/thor-and-his-magic-patu-notes-on-a-very-maori-marvel-movie/
Probably the most criticlly well explained issue Marvel has and what drives a lot of serious movie-goers away from their stuff. Also short and crisp video, something what i want these days. Kudos!
I actually thought the same throughout Thor. I struggled because yes, Marvel normally does a good job with the balance of humor throughout and it's a superhero movie so don't be too serious, but they have started to remove that "caring for the character moment" and it's a little saddening. Yes maybe we as the audience, especially people who want to make films, need to loosen up some...don't take it too seriously...it's just a movie...but you're right I am going to stop caring about the characters and where they are going if I am constantly being taken out of that scene by a joke.
100% agree with this. I'm glad more people are starting to take note of it because it's also been annoying me in the past few marvel movies. I can't fully invest in your movies, marvel, if you're making fun of yourself every few scenes.
YES this is the exact problem I’ve noticed! I liked Thor but it wasn’t impactful, and there were a bunch of moments that made me think it could have been really epic, but then they put a joke in instead. It makes me think that they’re so insecure about how they’ve written it that they don’t think you’ll be emotionally impacted by an actual serious scene, so instead they put in a joke because that’s certain to make us laugh when in actuality by now it’s just tedious
That's been the problem for a while with me, even in the beginning with The Avengers, there were so many big star roles that they all had to have their little zingers and I got kind of tired of it by the end.
Thor the dark world was very serious and boring, so they went 180 with this and I really liked it. I think marvel is trying to be kinda META with their jokes like deadpool(ofcourse not to than level). This is the new norm in art, movies and videogames. The character or artist is self aware and make of itself. They know they are movies and make fun of its stupidity. I mean thor is a god with a magic hammer which he uses for lightning and flying. That sentence without context sounds really stupid. So I like when they make fun of themselves.
Just FYI, that's not sarcasm you indulged in. At best, it's a form of irony (saying one thing and meaning another or the opposite). To be fair, few people understand what sarcasm really is. Sarcasm has to bite into someone, someone specific; it can't be generalised. This is where understanding the word helps: it comes from the Ancient Greek sarkazein meaning "to tear [the] flesh," usually (here's the fun part) *with the teeth*. So, unless you're biting into someone or tearing a strip off of them, it's not really sarcasm. Again, just a friendly FYI. :)
Okay, so here is why I think this movie works in the aspect that you don't. I totally understand what you say, and I agree to a certain point. If this was the first time we saw this characters in a movie, it would come across as shallow and uninteresting, but we do know them, their relationships and struggles. In my opinion, by mocking the problems this franchise had in the past, as well as Hulk's character, Taika made me care about the film and genuinely enjoy something I had very low expectations on. Other than that, I did find that the characters evolved more than they had in any other movie before. For example, how Thor tells Loki that they always end up living the same story where he trusts him and ends up being betrayed. Taika redims Loki for once and for all, instead of continuing with the same. However, if I were to see the same in following Thor movies, I don't believe it'll work. With this film, they renewed completly Thor's character and defined him in a much more interesting and efective way, as well as making fun of some of the most ridiculous moments of the last MCU films. Anyway, those are my thoughts :)
I'm a huge Marvel fan, and I 100% agree that this trend of "predictable subversion" in their movies is starting to get frustrating. It's like a weird defense mechanism that the writers have put into the scripts. Guardians 2 had a much better balance in my opinion; it didn't take itself too seriously while also being very touching. I liked Ragnarok, but I wish I had more emotional attachment to it.
YOU PUT IT INTO WORDS, YES!! I really really loved Thor Ragnarok but same as you, I didn't felt as invested in the story because of how much jokes they were. It would have been a totally different film! I'm not against some jokes from time to time, but i feel like Gardians of the Galaxy (1) did a better job at doing jokes AND keep us actually interested and in suspense of the actions happening. I was not afraid of Hela (even tho she was badass) because I knew that 'everything's gonna be okay', it's not a 'serious movie'. Anyway you put it into much better words than me. I was entertained but not invested. But Loki is still the most amazing characters and i'm simultaneously in love with him and 142 * *__* *
I feel like if Thor Ragnarok had a couple actually serious moments where they didn't immediately subvert our expectations (like when Thor lost his dad or his home) it would have been a much more interesting film. They could have used the lack of subversion to signal the severity of the moment, rather than subvert everything always and taking every moment as not serious. But, yah! Good film. Totally capable of having a fun mood without sacrificing much in other areas.
As a hard core marvel fan I’ve all ways seen the Thor films as pleasant ways to kill time between avengers movies and in that respect I enjoyed ragnorok x
This man speaks the truth, but I don't know if it's a goal of Marvel to truly make you "care." Marvel just has this transparency they can't seem to escape in it's movies and in the media outside the movies. Everything they do I want to add the word "pseudo" in front of. So I at least I gave up caring a long time ago.
Best line of the movie:
"I tried to start a revolution, but didn't print enough pamphlets, so nobody turned up"
😂😂
LOVED that dialogue.
"except for my mum, and her boyfriend, whom I hate."
Jackson Lana omg glad 200 people agree... I was literally the only person laughing in the cinema it was embarrassing!
YES KORG IS ONE OF THE BEST THINGS IN THE MOVIE ❤️
"Mieks dead. I stepped on him during the fight and I've been feeling so guilt I've been carrying him around with me ever since" DEAD
The incredibles 'you caught me monologuing' was really the original Hulk/Loki scene
Even as marvel fan, I'm not afraid to admit it has a lots of problems
Solomie Amanuel Agreed. I liked the movie a lot but I feel like Marvel was trying way to hard to get the audience to actually like Thor. I hope in the future Taika Waititi eases off on the humor when he starts working on the sequel.
This is why I like marvel fans. They don't go around acting like marvel movies are a masterpiece that nobody understands or gets. They admit the flaws and have a good time anyway.
a lot...? I think marvel is doing amazing... they set up a franchise and made 20+ films without one being atrocious?
Vino sitas then I guess u haven't seen the hulk then cause it tanked hard
Zach Gerrity Idk which marvel fans your talking to, i’ve met plenty of marvel apologists that can’t handle criticism, some of them being friends of mine even.
That’s why I liked Spider man homecoming, it felt very sincere
Sarah Finch My exact thoughts👍
Sarah Finch I loved that film!
yes! peter's a goofball, the jokes come from a place of genuine-ness, not snark
Definitely the best Marvel film this year. Guardians and Thor couldn't baleance the comedy with drama, but Spider-Man did it excellently. Black Panther looks like a much more serious film, and I hope Infinity War manages to strike the perfect balance.
I thought it felt too forced
People keep getting the wrong end of the stick with Thor: Ragnarok and it's starting to become frustrating. Marvel Studios enjoys trying to blend genres together, at least they say they do. Everyone raves about how winter soldier was 'A superhero film but it was a political thriller.' Thor Ragnarok was a comedy film. As soon as I heard Taika Waititi was directing, that basically confirmed it. They were doing a superhero film but it is also a comedy. Not just having lighthearted scenes and a few jokes like most Marvel films, a solid comedy start to finish. I think people need to think differently when watching it. Watch it as if its a comedy.
totally agree. and I generally enjoyed it so much. i also didn't really expect the jokes coming all the time, but that might be cause i'm not as much a film critic as Jack.. idk. in fact, the only joke that sort of annoyed me was when they made fun of "the sun's going down"
James Court exactly!
James Court that's actually a fresh take. Knowing who directs each film and what the trailers include should determine what genre film the audience should go in expecting to watch.
I agree. I really like that they're stepping out of the superhero genre and giving it more depth and nuance. It isn't just a super hero film with another big bad to defeat. It's more than that - it's a character driven comedy that propels Thor's development forward. Like... It's both. Just like the comics have so often been.
Zoie Wittenberg I though Jack would've expected what he got with Thor knowing that Waitrose was directing
Now that you mentioned it, I realised it is one of Marvel’s problem. Before watching this video, I couldn’t pinpoint what exactly this whole thing is but I did feel that some jokes didn’t hit me as hard as it supposed to because I expected it. Hmmmm... That being said, I do agree that Ragnarok is really fun and I really enjoyed watching it. I’m planning to watch it again tomorrow. (It’s not everyday you’ll find me willing to pay TWICE to see the same film. Hahahaha.)
This is the most honest and accurate review I've seen. I also didn't like a few other things like, the fact that they made the destruction of Asgard THOR'S FUCKING HOME, into a joke for Korg. I felt like that took too much away from the scene. I should've felt something in that moment, pain, loss or whatever. It wasn't there. Ragnarok does this a lot, it pulls you out of several moments for slapstick comedy and I don't like it. But it genuinly is a fun movie that actually made me give a shit about Thor.
Agreed!
I don't remember who originally commented this but they basically wanted two scenes which were emotional: Odin's death and when Asgard was blown up. The first one I could sort of understand why they didn't linger on to for too long seeing that it was just the beginning of the movie but I totally agree with you. It would have been a nice shift in tone if they stayed serious while the whole blowing up happened. They could go back to joking in the next scene no problem
I get that the director wanted to do a light hearted comedy, but I think he needed to realize dedicated fans also love the emotional arcs in marvel so we care about the fictional characters.SPOILERS: I did appreciate the sentimental end when Thor would have given Loki a hug if he actually was there and he WAS!!!
Yeah I think the movie fulfilled its purpose, but could have been improved if they had held back on humour attempts in some points.
To think Ragnarok was supposed to be about the End of Days for the Gods, the darkest moment and it's like no let's make jokes and let's ourselves create Ragnarok. Oh and btw, no Asgardians were hurt in the making of this movie. This could have been the ultimate fight but it wasn't.
I completely agree with these points, I've been feeling, sort of since ant man, that marvel are getting too smart for themselves, like the way in which they break the norm (their anti-chliché, if you will) is becoming predictable. What's wrong with a classic superhero movie every once in a while?
YES ABSOLUTELY!! There is nothing wrong with just including sentimentality- it's bloody key.
Im surprised they didnt crack jokes during the funeral of tony
You just put into words exactly how I felt about Thor.
The thing is marvel movies are actually comedy first and action/drama second. That's why it's worked so well other than the fact that marvel movies are just made brilliantly. You strip away the brand "marvel" from the movies and it'd still be enjoyable because it excels at just being a movie, you know with great script, character depth, coherence and a plot that actually makes sense. And honestly i don't mind the jokes at all, because like i said it's a comedy movie. They make great sentimental/drama as well. The end bits of civil war had me feeling really sad. Yes it's not perfect but it's not cheap or trash or half-assed either. I'm just glad that marvel puts in time and effort and gives the directors creative control and freedom with their movies. And all the while giving the fans what they want as well. So yea it's a win win situation.
That’s why I love daredevil and punisher so much it proves you don’t need jokes to have a good movie
*Every Marvel movie has a gag every 5 seconds except for incredible HULK*
Here we are 6 years after this video, and it FINALLY feels like mainstream audiences are starting realize this. It’s a shame it took this long, but I’m glad it’s happening.
i think spider-man hoco got that balance really well
really? i hope so
I didn't really like Thor Ragnarok, i thought it tried too hard to be guardians of the galaxy. I mean, yeah it was funny and all, but i thought it lost a bit of its purpose as a superhero movie, it was like the movie was already a "scary movie" type parody of itself. I love stupid jokes, i love comedy and there is totally a place for that in a super hero movie, but it just takes so much away from the "real" moments in it, just like you said, you can't really connect to it.
I think spiderman homecoming had a nice mix. Moments like Happy in the bathroom being interrupted are subversions, but the moment of Peter lifting the rubble, or him in the car with vulture are legitimate
I saw the film with two friends that aren't superhero fans. They found it amazing; I think because they just saw it as a comedy film. I was pretty disappointed. I thought it was going to be a superhero film, but I left in the same mindset that I leave comedies... it was rather disappointing.
I think Movie Bob does a good job at explaining why Ragnarok works so well and why the jokes that follow the serious moments actually add to the movie and the overall ideas in the flick.
Totally agree.
These are people jumping around in costumes and yeah, that's an inherently funny thing, but making light of that shouldn't compromise the sincerity that can/should lie at the heart of these stories
your argument is sound and valid, but, only if you don't take into account 1. its a Thor movie (with regards to the subversion of expectations in Ragnarok ) and so plays into the previous history with Thor as both a character in the cinematic universe and comics, as well as Thor as a filmic trilogy.
2.That the addition of levity actually goes some way to humanise Thor and as such helps make him a more relatable character than he had been before.
3. That there are actual moments of brevity. Ones that feel stronger because they build upon jokes or previous humorous moments. Skurge's moment of self sacrifice actually playing into one of the earliest jokes in the film. Or building a character for the Hulk through moments that are both funny and help to highlight his humanity. Like a temperamental child with friends. We laugh because we recognise the anger, not as huger rage monster but scared, lonely, and built from a love.
"You're not the god of hammers" is at all times both a joke and not a joke.
As for the other Marvel movies, aside from the guardians series, most have very little humour. At all times they feel like elements that build each characters humanity and help ground them a little more. Doctor Strange's clothes are ridiculous, if he doesn't naturally address it someone else probably will.
Peter, Tony, Scott all have personalities where humour or one liners are there to cover for nerves or weaknesses.
They do or say intentionally or unintentionally funny things as a consequence of their personalities and the situations they are in.
Captain America: Winter Soldier isn't remembered as an overtly comical film, but the "on your left" opening is essentially a jokey moment. It's just not played overly so.
For what it's worth I suspect that after 17 films and with the Avengers Infinity war opener coming up. Things are about to become quite a bit more weighty and this string of more light hearted fare is a deliberate plan to allow some breathing room before things become a lot less laugh out loud. I don't think we should see a total removing of the universes humorous leanings, but much much less.
Totally agree! I think the second Guardians of the Galaxy movie did a great job with the balance of comedy to serious moments, and Thor kind of...didn't? Like, I love Thor with all my heart, but a lot of the stuff just fell flat. Except for the rock guy -- he's my favorite.
The one part that was sweet and that I don't think they did ruin with a stupid joke was the ending, when Loki walks into Thor's room, and Thor throws that cap at him. That had been done before, two or three times, and it was getting old. But when it happened the last time and Loki actually caught it, it really struck a chord with me and I almost started crying. But yes! I totally agree with you.
General idea is on point BUT that "Sun's getting low" moment is a bad example...THAT was one of the best/funniest moments to me and was perfectly set up. It was Thor clumsily trying out a method Black Widow could only pull off with Hulk, in effort to try to calm his needed ally down. I don't think it should have been viewed as a "dramatic" moment turned comedic....it was comedic from the start and while I called it that Hulk was gonna yoke him around LOL it still delivered to me. I thought it was a brilliant callback to the last time we saw Hulk.
This is why I love homecoming so much it lets itself be sincere you care so much about peter Parker especially the scene under the rubble I don’t think we get anything like that in many marvel movies yet it was still probably one of the funniest ones
Was really struggling to put my finger on what made me disconnect slightly - this was it.
i always liked that Marvel seemed to be a bit more humorous about telling their stories than most others. "superheroes" is one of my favourite genres in films, but i don't like it when they're done overly action-y and serious (ex. Man of Steel), so i always appreciated Marvel's more light yet upbeat approach to them.
but i definitely agree with what you're saying, they're far overdoing it now and turned it into a big re-appearing stunt rather than a way of storytelling. i love Marvel's characters, i care about them and am emotionally invested. so though i like a good laugh, sometimes i do just want to sit there and cry my eyes out at a scene!
I haven't seen it yet. Tried to but when my dad and I got into the theater the reel was faulty so we couldn't see it. So I'm gonna have to wait to watch this haha
Spider man homecoming did a good job mixing the comedy but making it serious.I was invested with the villains dialogue because Peter was actually frightened and scared.He didn't talk over him.
The scenes with Thor and Loki and the snake was an improv
I think this is wonderfully well put and so far, you're just about the ONLY UA-camr I've found who I can relate to on all my film & tv opinions! Keep it up.
If you're impressed with this channel, you might be even more impressed with the channel entitled "Just Write." That guy made pretty much the same point about Doctor Strange and he has a lot of more interesting things to say about movies.
This was spot on, i love the humour in Spiderman homecoming my favourite marvel movie
Same here. Homecoming's awesome.
I agree completely. As a comedy, Ragnarok was great. I wasn't able to put a name on why it felt a little awkward but you summarized it perfectly! However, I also feel the MCU as a whole has to be balanced because Ragnarok is just one movie in a studio that's already put out over a dozen movies in the same overarching storyline. Especially with Black Panther (which I believe will be rather serious) and Infinity War (which I'm guessing will be emotionally devastating) coming out in the future, Ragnarok had to provide some fun. However, I feel as if the "Asgard blowing up" scene should have been more emotional. But I also feel as though the scenes with Hela ravaging and destroying Asgard were emotional. Heimdall protecting the refugees, Thor being able to see the state of his homeland, the people that went down fighting- those were the parts that made me emotionally invested in the movie. They don't actually stick out much in the first viewing, though (I watched the movie three times, haha!). It's also that we weren't really invested in Asgard in the first place? They seemed rather prissy and stuck-up in the first two movies and there was no real connection with them so I guess it's destruction wouldn't have added emotion. I mean, if Earth blew up, we'd be devastated, which is an understatement. But we also have a deeply personal connection with the planet. I would have liked to see something like that on the refugees' part- the people's reactions hurt more than the planet being destroyed. Also, this comment is sort of all over the place but I hope I got my point across.
I really agree, Thor was my favorite, I really don't know why. I think it was just because back during his origin it was the most different compared to others. So I came into Ragnarok excited to finally see Thor again and see his story and while I enjoyed the movie and had fun, I just kinda left the movie with a feeling that I can only describe as "What's the point". I just watched movies with characters that I loved but I didn't really understand why I felt like I should love them so much. I didn't really understand why I felt that way until I watched this video, thanks Jack.
I really wish I found your channel earlier-years earlier, you're brilliant and your videos are about the exact stuff I've wanted to discuss and gush over. I'm surprised I'm only now discovering you.❤
I go to the cinema a lot and Ragnorok was one of the best go in have a good time, bit of escapism I've seen in a while, not quite as good as the Lego ninjago film but it's just nice to walk in a building and come out feeling g better than you did a couple hours ago.
I've seen a lot of talk about Marvel’s tone problem recently, even before Thor, and I'm not really sure how I feel. It definitely bothers me when what should be a sincere or exciting moment is undercut by a joke - part of why we watch superhero movies is to root for the hero and get excited. "Come on peter, come on spiderman" was a great scene because it was played completely straight, and that's important. With Ragnarok, though, the "subversive" jokes didn't bother me. Maybe the Hulk scene did a little bit, but certainly not as much as it would've in other Marvel movies. What's different, I think, about Ragnarok, is that where other movies strive for emotion that doesn't balance well with the jokes and leaves the audience uncomfortable, Ragnarok doesn't ask for much emotional investment. Like GotG (though that's more clearly marketed as a comedy), it opens with a joke, and the audience knows what to expect from there. We still get to see Thor kick ass without falling on his face, and the more emotional moments are given enough weight, but overall the tone feels consistent and comfortable.
Well the part with Hulk hitting the bridge was more of a Incredible Hulk reference than a joke
I totally agree with you. Thor Ragnarok was the first film where it really stood out. I call this the 'Deadpool' filter. It felt like they wanted to use that same kind of humour, because that's popular. I honestly think Deadpool 2 will feel weird now. The strong part about Deadpool was that they made fun of typical superhero movies. Now that the movies do that themselves, there's nothing left to parody.
It felt like I was watching a human trying to be a hero, instead of an actual god being a god (like, why all the fuss about not touching his hair? It has never been a problem before)
I totally agree with you! I loved the jokes in Ragnarok and I laughed at most of them but I agree about the emotional detachment. You referenced the "Suns going down" gag and my god they ripped the piss out of that. It just kept going on. There completely needs to be a balance between the jokes and the emotional moments.
One I'm glad they didn't make into a joke is *SPOILER ALERT* at the end where Loki catches the ball (or whatever it is that Thor throws!) and says "I'm here"
I wasn't expecting that and it was nice! More of that Marvel, please!
I really enjoy when you do videos like this. It makes me take a second look at these films and rethink my opinion. Please keep making these.
I'm a bit late on this but I really loved Thor Ragnarok and didn't really tire of the subversion of expectations and jokes because I don't really watch all the Marvel movies so I'm not really used to it. I think I like it also because I watched it from the perspective of someone who wanted to see a cool 80s inspired Sci Fi - Fantasy and thats exactly what I got with some great jokes thrown in.
I think you're right. The only problem with the idea that Marvel shound evolve it's sense of humor is that the formula is working pretty well for them. I really don't have faith that studios will take too many risks. For example I don't think they'd want Taika Waititi to direct the next Thor but I don't think they'd let him write it. Marvel has been pushing boundries a bit over the years but I don't think we should expect a major change any time soon. They'd have to work their way towards that over the next few years. I also give most of Marvels faults a pass because I don't hold studio movies to super high standards.
I agree with everything you said except the part about the opening gag with the chain turning. I saw Thor twice and both times the joke actually got funnier for the audience.
I agree with this completely! I loved the film because it was such a Taika-Kiwi film and I'm from New Zealand so that was incredible, but almost every joke I called beforehand, especially Bruce jumping out of the ship. I think even the scene at the beginning seemed to be the SAME shot, of Thor spinning round ? Or at least so similar that I as a film student went "ah they've used the same shot twice that's not great". Overall great movie, but I agree with you about the jokes.
this is a really great point. I think this explains why Ragnarok was both a really good movie in its own right, but kind of frustrating as an edition to the MCU.
I have said this many times, but I loved Ragnarok when (and only when) I let go of what I wanted from the film and appreciated it for what it was.
I started watching this thinking i was gonna be mad and then jack said the bit about banner falling out of the plane and not turning into the hulk and I totally got it because I knew that was gonna happen whilst it was happening also. Thor was a comedy rather than an action, thriller, comic movie which it really could've been. I agree. I cared less about the characters by the end of the film. When Asgard fell apart where normally I would've cried (cause am a big baby) I couldn't have gave two shits which kind of disconnected me from that moment. Love the film, but your criticisms were bang on.
If we're talking about Thor: Ragnarok, the one that felt out of place for me is Thor screaming when he's going through the tunnel and when he's about to get his hair cut by Stan Lee. It just felt out of character: A guy who can stand up to giants and demons can scream like a little girl at those moments? A manly scream is maybe acceptable, but a squeaky one is just felt like a blooper that they accidentally left in.
Woah. It’s Jack Howard 5 years later...
Completely agree. Marvel very rarely lets scenes breathe without injecting a joke and it gets so frustrating. I feel like its almost like Marvel's trying SO hard to be different than DC's more darker tone, thus making them go so overboard
The problem with referencing your own persona experience on something (i.e. 'feeling the energy change in your theater and the joke falling flat) is that it's easily countered with the fact that I remember the audience laughing as hard if not harder the 2nd time he turned around. Not really a proper support for a point.
Imagine Spider-man 2... Doc Oc just kidnapped MJ, and Peter finally gets his power back... his fist clenched powerfully... epic music.... And then... a fart.
i like this new backdrop/editing style! keep up the good work jack thanks for always thinking critically about films and sharing your thoughts!
I love this, just watched the Thor movie and hopped straight onto UA-cam the moment it finished to hear your thoughts. I watch these films and sometimes things don’t sit right but I can never put it into words and then you do a review and im like “Yes thank you that’s what I was thinking”. So please continue to do these or I’ll have my thoughts stuck in my mind forever unable to put them into words
Agreed, in fact it hindered my enjoyment of Avengers at the time as well. Its a shame the Marvel movies don't take themselves more seriously. Ironically, the Guardians movies seem to be the most resonant by virtue of having a different brand of humor.
I feel like the Marvel joke problem is the one aspect of the films that puts me off. Avengers Assemble started this revolution with jokes in the MCU, with Iron Man 3, Guardians 1 and Ant-Man. Following, but Ant-Man became the movie were I was like, ok, now there are too many jokes. Doctor Strange sort of had this promlem, with Guardians 2, Homecoming and Ragnorok truly taken advantage. Iron man 1, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, the first avenger, the dark world, Winter solider, civil war and Black Panther don’t really have this problem. My favorite MCU movies are the ones that aren’t cluster with jokes, I.e, Winter Soilder, Civil War. But yea, Marvel after Infinity War need to find a balance.
I also liked the movie which suprisingly was a stepup to my expectation despite it being filled with jokes and gags to the brim.
What I didn't like was 1) how it basically was supposed to showcase the destruction of an entire world and the threat to it's people which never had any true weight even to the end and 2) how cool I thought the prospect of Hela was and she starts manifesting all these blades out of nothing and switching the hairstyle over and over.
And Korg, to me he's so out of place that everything people who hate JarJar Binks say, I could directly place on him.
Lastly, (I don't know really, we'll get to see in the future I suppose) as Banner said he feared turning into hulk as he may "take over" permanently, I'm curious if that jumping on the bridge bit was a joke as well as showcasing Bruce Banners death now being only Hulk. Whichever way I liked that.
I adore the MCU. Homecoming and Guardians Vol. 2 exceeded my expectations in every way. But Thor: Ragnarok? Good lord, it was a mess. Exemplified everything wrong with Marvel, which they had (up to now) been doing a good job of refining.
I mean you’ve titled this ‘the problem with marvel’ but you’ve only really examined Thor Ragnarok.
I still agree with you though. There are just jokes that weren’t appropriately timed...
Like Thor repeating “suns getting real low”
Or the very last joke from Korg “oh no he’s dead, I stepped on him and felt so bad I’ve been carrying him, oh he’s alive!...”
Couldn't agree more! The Avengers was one of my favorite cinema experiences ever... three times. The humor was PERFECT.
Thor Ragnarok didn't come anywhere near that, pretty much all the jokes felt forced and predictable.
I'm so glad somebody else had this view of Ragnarok, when I saw it it wasn't even halfway through when I realized I wasn't going to enjoy the rest of it. I didn't have a BAD time, I just didn't like how it decided to keep being funny instead of giving us any good character/plot moments (the Hulk/bridge moment is my go-to complaint and I'm really glad you mentioned it too). It felt like the movie didn't care about the characters or plot outside of using them to make jokes and almost made fun of us for expecting/wanting a "cool moment" and overall I didn't like it.
You've hit the nail on the head! I wanted to love this movie...And I didn't mind some of the jokes. But they became such a constant that even the "epic" scenes got lost in constant "Eh, we made a funny. Did you see that? Laugh!" It was trying to be something else, maybe they wanted the humor of the Guardians? But given the context, the characters, our relationship with Thor and his growth thus far, it felt forced and dishonest.
I felt care toward the hulk and Thor due to the characters built over various recent movies, but I agree completely with your notions in this video! Which is made clear by the fact that I loved this movie but built zero "care" for the character valkyrie because of the comedic air over the whole film.
SPOILERS COMING UP!
Totally agree. By the end of the movie they had their emotional climax, when Asgard is destroyed, I actually felt it, even though I had previously never cared much about Asgard. The built up to that moment was very well put together. Only to be ruined by a joke by Korg. The joke didn't work because it felt like the writers were not sure if the sequence worked emotionally. Like they were unsure whether I was emotionally invested or not. And so they made a joke in case I wasn't.
But I kinda was. And the joke immediately pulled me out of that genuine connection and pushed me away.
Fortunately, Black Panther is next, and I think Black Panther will be a very serious film like Iron Man or the Winter Soldier. Because Feige has been very respectful to the characters and T'Challa is NOT a snarky joker (Neither was Thor but hey, they tried twice and it didn't work).
Thor was definitely funny in the first film and in The Avengers films (I haven't seen The Dark World yet).
Thor has been a funny character in the past, just depends on what you're reading but they definitely went for a golden age Thor with Ragnarok and it worked best. As for Black Panther, he has never been funny as far as I'm aware, but his supporting cast has (E.g Agent Ross).
I can't even remember the last Marvel film I saw. I've only seen the Iron Man and Avenger films, I think. Superhero movies don't really appeal to me, because they're not about the genuine human condition. Checkout "Super Dark Times", Jack. It has a "kids on bikes" look/plot, but it's actually a very dark and grim coming of age film. It takes place in that pre-columbine era in the 1990's. I highly recommend it.
100% agree with you on Ragnarok. There was a ton of the raving about how funny it was, but I really thought they took the humor too far. And I didn't like how callously and unceremoniously Volstagg and Fandral of The Warriors Three' were dispatched. So much death and destruction got glossed over for cheap gags that I found it off-putting. In the end, I felt like Wattiti could not have cared less about these characters, which makes me not want him involved with future projects.
I thought one of the most stand-up moments of badly placed humour in Thor:Ragnarok was when Korg made the "foundations" joke as Asgard exploded. I felt that while that joke was definitely very funny, it removed any emotion from the scene where Thor's (and almost everybody else on the ship) planet got destroyed
I came into this video thinking oh god but you put into words the issue I had with Thor completely. I couldn’t figure out why I wasn’t wholly invested and honestly this is why, I actually thought the fight scene on the bridge was the best part because there was minimal jokes (that I can remember). I hated that banner jumped out and hit the bridge because I wanted that super hero landing!!!
i kinda agree with you on this. i thought it was a brilliant movie, but some of the moments, for example when they did the "my chain is turning me around" joke for the second time, were a bit too much.
I totally understand your point of view and that's right that with the second spin of thor chained it was like ... meh.
But I think i'm totally naive because i was absolutely certain that banner would turn to hulk at the bridge scene ... Maybe i get too emotionnal ... or maybe you don't :/
But i did blow a kiss at the end ;)
When I saw the title I thought “what this guy know about marvel to say that they have a big problem” but then I watched and now I think I’m going to sub
"you scribbled the word discursive in cursive and called yourself subversive. We all belly laughed..." - Milo
I agree, I completely saw Bruce Banner not turning into the Hulk and just falling flat. It was subconsciously predictable to me.
Yeah, pretty much. I think that when Marvel makes fun of itself, it is undermining its own sincerity and its own reason for existing. When I watch deadpool, I do not expect a serious plot that I will care about, because Deadpool doesn't care about it. When I watch Thor, I do expect that, because the characters, for the most part, buy in to their own story. Until they don't? So yeah, I think a halfway house between "sincere heroism" and "make fun of heroes" doesn't work, or won't work in the long run.
Loved this video, it absolutely 100% vocalises all of my feelings about the MCU. There's no room for sincerity. The two Thor movies prior - though not any real critical success - were some of the more sincere films in the MCU and gave Thor some classically heroic moments, especially in the first, when Thor learned what it meant to be worthy. Ragnarok turned this on it's head and felt like a bit of a sting to me, having been emotionally invested in the characters beforehand. Ragnarok was enjoyable, and I'm a huge fan of Taika Watiti but - I know I'm in the minority - Ragnarok was far from the satisfying conclusion to Thor's character I was hoping for.
I feel the same about Thors character development in this one, it lacked emotional depth and felt very rushed if not forced at certain points of the film I tried but couldn't really make myself care about him or any characters for that matter. I did however appreciate Watitis approach to Thor in general, the broody moody corner he's been put into lately just didn't quite fit him (yes even though he was concerned for asgard etc etc) Maybe I'll just have to see it again in order to pick up on more subtle actions or indicated traits of character but atm I'm a bit "meh" about his progression, I did enjoy the movie as a whole though it's not bad but I don't see the "masterpiece" people make it out to be
i agree with your point about marvel as a whole playing up the jokes when id rather they take the characters seriously and honestly that might be a reason they got Waititi to direct thor ragnarok, but i read this interesting article the other day about the film and it’s ties to Māori culture which i think gives a better understanding and more depth as to why ragnarok is structure the way it is, particularly the last section about Māori humour thespinoff.co.nz/atea/31-10-2017/thor-and-his-magic-patu-notes-on-a-very-maori-marvel-movie/
Probably the most criticlly well explained issue Marvel has and what drives a lot of serious movie-goers away from their stuff. Also short and crisp video, something what i want these days. Kudos!
Jack! After watching this video, I NEED an update on what you thought of Infinity War!
I actually thought the same throughout Thor. I struggled because yes, Marvel normally does a good job with the balance of humor throughout and it's a superhero movie so don't be too serious, but they have started to remove that "caring for the character moment" and it's a little saddening. Yes maybe we as the audience, especially people who want to make films, need to loosen up some...don't take it too seriously...it's just a movie...but you're right I am going to stop caring about the characters and where they are going if I am constantly being taken out of that scene by a joke.
100% agree with this. I'm glad more people are starting to take note of it because it's also been annoying me in the past few marvel movies. I can't fully invest in your movies, marvel, if you're making fun of yourself every few scenes.
I like how you were subversive at the end of this video with your outro. "my name is jack howard AND... bye."
YES this is the exact problem I’ve noticed! I liked Thor but it wasn’t impactful, and there were a bunch of moments that made me think it could have been really epic, but then they put a joke in instead. It makes me think that they’re so insecure about how they’ve written it that they don’t think you’ll be emotionally impacted by an actual serious scene, so instead they put in a joke because that’s certain to make us laugh when in actuality by now it’s just tedious
That's been the problem for a while with me, even in the beginning with The Avengers, there were so many big star roles that they all had to have their little zingers and I got kind of tired of it by the end.
a lot of funky music in the background v nice love it 😘
There was something about the film and I couldn't understand why I it didn't leave an impact on me. This is one of the reasons why.
I totally agree with you Jack, I think the jokes work in GOTG but not really anything else
Thor the dark world was very serious and boring, so they went 180 with this and I really liked it.
I think marvel is trying to be kinda META with their jokes like deadpool(ofcourse not to than level). This is the new norm in art, movies and videogames. The character or artist is self aware and make of itself. They know they are movies and make fun of its stupidity.
I mean thor is a god with a magic hammer which he uses for lightning and flying. That sentence without context sounds really stupid. So I like when they make fun of themselves.
Saransh Oberoi Thor 2 had tonnes of jokes in it, the only thing that was particularly dark about it was the colour correction.
when Marvel use jokes more than JJ Abrams use lens flares
Just FYI, that's not sarcasm you indulged in. At best, it's a form of irony (saying one thing and meaning another or the opposite).
To be fair, few people understand what sarcasm really is. Sarcasm has to bite into someone, someone specific; it can't be generalised. This is where understanding the word helps: it comes from the Ancient Greek sarkazein meaning "to tear [the] flesh," usually (here's the fun part) *with the teeth*. So, unless you're biting into someone or tearing a strip off of them, it's not really sarcasm. Again, just a friendly FYI. :)
Thank you for sharing and recommending these products! Maybe one day I'll afford them! Can you recommend any similar products that are less expensive?
yeah i found that there were many lil unnecessary jokes in the film, but i still liked it. it was good!
Brilliant summary! I felt very similar and had a hard time explaining the feeling to friends. Thank you for putting it in words :)
Okay, so here is why I think this movie works in the aspect that you don't. I totally understand what you say, and I agree to a certain point. If this was the first time we saw this characters in a movie, it would come across as shallow and uninteresting, but we do know them, their relationships and struggles. In my opinion, by mocking the problems this franchise had in the past, as well as Hulk's character, Taika made me care about the film and genuinely enjoy something I had very low expectations on. Other than that, I did find that the characters evolved more than they had in any other movie before. For example, how Thor tells Loki that they always end up living the same story where he trusts him and ends up being betrayed. Taika redims Loki for once and for all, instead of continuing with the same. However, if I were to see the same in following Thor movies, I don't believe it'll work. With this film, they renewed completly Thor's character and defined him in a much more interesting and efective way, as well as making fun of some of the most ridiculous moments of the last MCU films. Anyway, those are my thoughts :)
I'm a huge Marvel fan, and I 100% agree that this trend of "predictable subversion" in their movies is starting to get frustrating. It's like a weird defense mechanism that the writers have put into the scripts. Guardians 2 had a much better balance in my opinion; it didn't take itself too seriously while also being very touching. I liked Ragnarok, but I wish I had more emotional attachment to it.
YOU PUT IT INTO WORDS, YES!! I really really loved Thor Ragnarok but same as you, I didn't felt as invested in the story because of how much jokes they were. It would have been a totally different film! I'm not against some jokes from time to time, but i feel like Gardians of the Galaxy (1) did a better job at doing jokes AND keep us actually interested and in suspense of the actions happening. I was not afraid of Hela (even tho she was badass) because I knew that 'everything's gonna be okay', it's not a 'serious movie'. Anyway you put it into much better words than me. I was entertained but not invested. But Loki is still the most amazing characters and i'm simultaneously in love with him and 142 * *__* *
I feel like if Thor Ragnarok had a couple actually serious moments where they didn't immediately subvert our expectations (like when Thor lost his dad or his home) it would have been a much more interesting film. They could have used the lack of subversion to signal the severity of the moment, rather than subvert everything always and taking every moment as not serious.
But, yah! Good film. Totally capable of having a fun mood without sacrificing much in other areas.
+Elias Spencer totally agree
Also kinda mad that the first 5 minutes of Thor: Ragnarok was just out-of-character Deadpool
As a hard core marvel fan I’ve all ways seen the Thor films as pleasant ways to kill time between avengers movies and in that respect I enjoyed ragnorok x
I have been feeling detached to the characters in the MCU for a bit. This helps explain why.
This man speaks the truth, but I don't know if it's a goal of Marvel to truly make you "care." Marvel just has this transparency they can't seem to escape in it's movies and in the media outside the movies. Everything they do I want to add the word "pseudo" in front of. So I at least I gave up caring a long time ago.