When Comparing LeBron to other all time great SFs in all stat categories, he falls short Player PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FT% 3 PT % 25 Nikola jokic 10th 2nd 3rd 12th T-30th 26th 65th 24 Giannis Antetokounmpo 2nd 2nd 14th T-11th 6th 72nd 79th 23 Elgin Baylor 2nd 3rd 14th N/A N/A 8th N/A 22 David Robinson 1st 1st T-36th T-5th 1st T-80th 35th 21 Bob Petiit 1st 2nd 14th N/A N/A T-10th N/A 20 Kevin Durant 1st 19th T-20th T-30th T-24th 1st T-6th 19 Kevin Garnett 3rd 1st 14th T-17th T-9th T-18th T-50th 18 Karl Malone 2nd 18th T-30th T-6th T-18th T-48th N/A 17 George Mikan 1st 1st 8th N/A N/A 8th N/A 16 Oscar Robinson 1st 9th 1st N/A N/A 1st N/A 15 Steph Curry 1st T-53rd 5th 1st 91st 1st 2nd 14 Moses Malone 2nd 1st T-133rd T-60th T-10th 38th N/A 13 Jerry West 1st T-21st 1st N/A N/A 3rd N/A 12 Julius Irving (Dr. J) 4th T-25th T-25th 7th T-10th 13th N/A 11 LeBron James 1st T-15th 1st 3rd T-39th 82nd T-27th 10 Shaquille O'Neal 1st 2nd T-54 T-107th 2nd 120th N/A 9 Tim Duncan 5th 2nd T-49th T-106th 3rd 58th N/A 8 Hakeem Olajuwon 3rd 1st T-64th 6th 1st 71st N/A 7 Wilt Chamberlain 1st 1st 2nd N/A N/A 34th N/A 6 Larry Bird 2nd 4th 13th T-8th T-42nd 1st 2nd 5 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1st 1st T-15th T-22nd 1st 53rd N/A 4 Kobe Bryant 1st T-46th T-19th T-5th T-43rd 12th 27th 3 Magic Johnson 10th 12th 1st 1st T-56th 1st 18th 2 Bill Russell 17th 1st 6th N/A N/A 28th N/A 1 Michael Jordan 1st T-32nd 10th 1st T-17th 16th T-10th Anybody who walks around with a t-shirt on that says "Check My Stats" is a stat whore. Problem is, LeBron's too stupid to see his own faults. In 22 seasons LeBron has led in two end-of-season stat titles. If he thinks 2-22 is pretty good, well, it gets worse for him. Out of a possible 154 total stat titles, LeBron has, um, TWO! Also, for all those Jordan haters that say MJ's weakness was shooting threes, what does that say about LeBron? Again, LeBron's fanboys take after LeBron, they're too stupid to know what WTF they're talking about. As always. Very appreciated. And, as always, LeBron Ain't No GOAT!!
Honestly all those players that you mentioned above are all better/greater players then Lebron except Giannis However, I will still take Giannis over Lebron any day of the weak even though Lebron is more skilled compared to Giannis. Reason being that Giannis plays both sides of the floor & is a vastly better defender then Lebron ever was. Plus Giannis has better intangibles than Lebron. Also Giannis actually won the right way without short cutting the process and without cheating
Fair. Let’s be fair. Jordan counted his scoring every single quarter for his entire career.* No “check my stats” shirt the soft pathetic man had it tattooed to the inside of his eye lids lol *confirmed by Carmelo Anthony when he won the scoring title citing Jordan for the advice Jordan gave him.
When Wilt set the ASG record with 42 points in 1962, he was 8 of 16 from the foul line. In that game, there were 94 free throw attempts between both teams (51 and 43) and there were 63 fouls called. When Anthony Davis scored 52 in 2017 to set the new record, he had ZERO free throw attempts. In that 2017 game, there were 8 free throw attempts...4 for EACH team! The 2017 teans combined to commit 16 personal fouls (11 and 5). The ASG has been a joke for MANY years
Said it before and even in this format it still holds true, larry bird was the most complete bball player and had no glaring weaknesses. KD finished higher in blocks when bpg leaders are like 2.5bpg. Bird was in an era with guys avg over 5 regularly. Another thing that stood out is David Robinson compared to olajuwon. Ive been saying this for a while too,..Robinson and olajuwon had similar stats and both got 2 rings yet people dont even have Robinson in their top 20 often. Robinson has the highest combined blocks per game and steals per game ever in a season, not Hakeem.
@MJIZZEL I got Robinson at #22. He had a few worse playoff failures and Hakeem winning the back to back. Only player to never be the #1 seed or won 60 games and won multiple championships. As an individual player, Robinson scores very high. The winning is the only thing holding him back. Had he won it in 1995 as the best player, Robinson is in my top 15, possibly top 12. Robinson was no bum, that's for sure. Birds issue is like Robinson, he took a lot of upsets but some of them were barely upsets. Bird was my favorite player growing up. I wanted to ignore this stuff but it was becoming too much to put him in the top 5. But I have him at 6, but it's a virtual tie between Magic, Kobe, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Olajuwon. MJ #1, Russell #2, then any order you want for these 6, #3-#8
@NBAFactsSelfResearched I agree with everything you said here. Thanks for noticing how good Robinson was as many today have the guy ranked very low. Definitely should've won in 95 With how good he and that team were. Man another thing I'm glad you notice is how good kobe was. It's like he has to be put down too because he's been the closest to a "Next Jordan " that we've had since Mike himself. Idiotic the way these young fans critique kobe and say he was carried by shaq. Go look at those 3 rings in context. The true finals were the WCF all three years and it was kobe who was leading that teak on scoring and more importantly, in 4th quarter scoring. Yet they say he was carried. Same idiots refuse to say that about pippen tho. They are so contradictory. Love this channel man. Hope it blows up. I got bird ahead of Kobe tho but it's matter of personal perspective when it gets that close. God Bless
So get this, for LeBron's playoff seasons 2008-2014 (his last Miami year) he averages 6.3 assists per game in 41.8 minutes. Tracy McGrady for his playoff seasons 2001-2008 averages 6.5 assists in 42.6 minutes. Those are LeBron's age 23-29 years, basically his prime. McGrady averages more assists. And yes I have Tracy McGrady as the better player than LeBron James, just use the eye test. And Tracy got injured outside of age 25. After age 25 he was cooked like Penny. I did this for a bunch of players like Barkley and they outperform LeBron in the playoffs. 1986-1994 Barkley in the playoffs averages 4.7 assists. So he is close as well and averages 13.6 rebounds.
??? McGrady's 01-08 sample is like 35 games; that's not even half a season. And we're talking 43/29/76 shooting splits in exclusively first round exits. "Eye test" is probably the worst way to evaluate this. McGrady's prime was 20 years ago; any "eye test" for him is going to be selective memory and highlights.
@@karimglasgow5518 I don't think the production drops if he plays 100 games. McGrady is clearly the better player. The whole team shot 41% in the 2007 and 2008 playoffs with no Yao in 2008. McGrady did his best playoff shooting 2002-2005 where he had a 50% eFG%. Anyways LeBron is not a better passer than McGrady. Rick Barry averaged 5.9 assists per game in the playoffs 1975-1977 in the same amount of minutes as LeBron. He played most of his athletic prime before that in the ABA. I think a lot of people would have Rick Barry as the better passer than LeBron as well. Elgin was clearly the better passer as well. He never got the chance to play point forward though.
@Daniel_Moore3 02-05, means 50% eFG in 18 games while Bron's career playoff eFG is 53.7% in 287 games. BTW Bron's career playoff APG is 7.2. Using your logic that higher playoff APG with no regard to strength of schedule makes prime McGrady a slightly better passer than prime Bron, there's no way to argue that past his prime Bron isn't a much better passer than prime McGrady. Won't debate Barry or Baylor because I've never seen them play. I will say, the few highlights I've seen of Baylor don't quite match the way other players from that era mythologize his athleticism and suggest he was Doc and MJ before Doc and MJ. I'm sure he was elite relative to his contemporaries, but I didn't see the "decide in the air" hops I expected.
@I'm not sure where to rank LeBron, probably somewhere around Dominique Wilkins. He is definitely not top 30 though. Keep in mind prime Dominique Wilkins wins the 2011 championship with Wade and Bosh in replace of LeBron. We have had about 65 years of great basketball leagues, LeBron is not top 30 in my opinion. Angry Old Hoops talks about this, what is so amazing about his style of play?
@@karimglasgow5518 To understand Baylor watch his 1958 college championship highlights on UA-cam with the good camera angles. You can also watch his 1969 all-star game highlights. If you count 1974 (.899) Barry had a 90% free throw % or better for 8 straight seasons. LeBron is around these guys in my opinion. And I personally think LeBron is a center and should have played center to inspire people. Would have liked to see LeBron go up against Shaq. Him and Ben Wallace have similar heights.
Excellent video man! For me personally, I don't have lebron over Dr. J, Bird, Havlichek . So the media making it a runaway case that he is the greatest small forward is laughable. And I'm so tired of them dismissing Dr. J like he was a nobody. The man led the league in scoring 3 times, has 4 mvps, 3 chips, the best shot blocking small forward of all time. Better rebounder and pocket picker than lebron. It's a joke at how they omit Dr. J and leap frog lebron over everybody. ESPN is a joke. Nobody who actually watched the game, knows the history, can sit here and honestly say lebron is 2nd best all time in history or even the goat. It's beyond laughable.
@fithealth247 Absolutely! I tell people Clyde Drexler was a great player, he beat high level teams without a HOF teammate until he got to Houston. He filled up the stat sheet and was an excellent all around player and very deserving of Top 75. He is a poor man's version of Dr. J. His 76ers beat the Celtics twice in the early 80s and he was BY FAR the best player the ABA ever saw. I have him at #12 and I often wonder if I have messed up by not putting him in the top 10. His longevity was also excellent. His age 36-37 season, he was still a legitimate all star and very productive player
I totally agree and it's laughable when people say Jordan didnt play anyone in the finals..as if those blazers teams was garbage. Heck, outside of the Walton led Blazers, we can say that those look late 80s to early 90s blazers were the best blazers teams in team history. And that 92 blazer team had 5 all star players in duckworth, buck Williams, Danny ainge, terry porter and Clyde. C'mon man lol. Nobody back then was calling those blazers garbage. Also with Dr J we can say that he probably is the most influential and important player in history merging the ABA with the NBA. And seeing how influential the ABA was to the NBA with the NBA adopting stuff from the ABA. I would put Dr J in my top 10. I gave bird and Dr j in my top 10. I would give you my top 15 in order. Jordan, wilt, Kareem, magic, Russell, Hakeem, bird, Dr j, Kobe, Duncan, Havlichek, Oscar, Baylor Lebron and Shaq
Another great video Jim! I always suspected that not only was LeBron’s “goat” argument fabricated, but his place as the best “small-forward” too… When arguing Jordan’s case, there is always context or nuance in the positive… But, LeBron’s failures are just that, abject failures… No context, he had everything in his favour including referees & collusion & still choked far more often than he performed… Then there’s the continuing massive “free-throw” disparity despite not being in the top 15 in drives to the basket (last time I checked)… On another note, the “King” was definitely the “king-of-turnovers” today…SEVEN 😂😂😂
Thank you, and no I don't think LeBron had to deal with all time great forwards in his division like Bird and Dr. J did. Jordan had Isiah and Dumars, Dominique, Reggie, Sidney Moncrief, Miller in his division. LeBron really had none of that all the way thru. Imagine being Dr. J or Bird and playing each other 6x regular season and another 6 in the playoffs every year
13:45 The LeVisionist Historians can understand the concept of increased shot attempts = increased shot difficulty when it comes to Steph and why he’s considered the best 3pt shooter, but when it comes to MJ all understanding of nuance flies out the window and his scoring titles and scoring accolades are bc he just “took more shots.” They will shamelessly make this painfully dumb argument then call YOU the ‘casual’ with a bunch of “I’m crying laughing at you!” emojis attached. Those emojis are the reason you’ll see LeBron’s loyal subjects use them ALL THE TIME bc, in my opinion, they are a defense mechanism of their subconscious. They know in their core what they are saying is illogical, but since they are the ones laughing at you, they must be winning the argument regardless
@@willemcenter8649 huh? He’s got one of the best FG% among shooting guards all time. He’s got twice as many 40pt games where he shot better than 50% than Lebron has 40pt games period. Did you mean to say something that wasn’t what you just said?
@@MrKurtykurt nope. 100% meant what I said. The post I’m replying to is talking about how taking smart shots is a point of value for the newer players, but it is somehow forgotten for Jordan. Claiming that Jordans efficiency would be better if he didn’t have to take as many shots (which he didn’t) The mathematics don’t change, meaning that any shooting % you post is still brought down by Jordan being inept at the game and forcing foolish ego driven shots over effective basketball. Jordan picked to play loser ball over making the smart play. Which is dumb.
Jokic this season so far is top 5 in ppg, assists, rebounds, steals, and LEADS 3pt%! So safe to say this season he's gonna be top 5 or at least top 10 in all those, just crazy. So MJ was once top 10 in 3pt%??! And haters say he cannot shoot 3s. 😄 Isn't he the most well rounded guard in the list? His 32nd in rebounds also actually was top 5/10 for a guard right? Maybe to further put context into this you may want to list the ranking within their respective position. Btw yeah I think you should've added TOV or TOV% cuz it's a major stat category too.
I know, I'm kicking myself for not doing turnovers. But it's another stat that I couldn't get the older players in and that always bugs me because I would've loved to have seen that
You did good on your Bill Russell versus LeBron debate. After looking at most of Russell's available online film he was a mix between Pippen, Rodman, and Mutombo. And yes I agree, Bill Russell is the better player and it is not close. I listened to an interview where Bill said Wilt called him the best rebounder he has ever seen. I would say Russell in his 30's was a better athlete than Jordan in his 30's. So I would say it is highly possible Russell was the better athlete than Jordan when both in their 20's. Russell was ranked #2 and #3 in the high jump in the world back in 1956. Part of the problem is the camera angles from most of the 1960's games make the players look smaller. It is different camera angles. Russell was huge.
Crazy Larry Bird was top 13 in almost all of those categories. Players being ranked number one in more then one category is also insanely impressive. Another crazy stat I heard of about Jordan is he only had the ball in his hands for 3 minutes per game to score 30 points per game.
Yeah Bird was literally good at everything. Not a premiere shot blocker but his lack of athleticism explains that easily. Jordan was such an efficient scorer. I heard him one time say that defenses were game planning him so he would make his move immediately to avoid a set defense. So I believe it. Makes perfect sense
@@NBAFactsSelfResearched I’m not sure that applies to Jordan’s overall career but It seems like that’s the case. Edit: It is also a reason why he didn’t need to shoot the three that much.
Evidence of the 3 minutes? That seems wildly impossible. About 16 players hit the court and game is 48 minutes. That’s 3 per player if divided evenly but Jordan is holding the ball more than anyone else on his team
@@KevinLiuK you do realize how time and math work right? It’s literally impossible unless you think he’s holding the ball less than the bench players and still taking the most shots (by a country mile)
Havlicek was one of the first multi-tool players. He and Sam Jones were the prototypical sixth men. Havlicek was also good enough to play both guard spots. And, as correctly pointed out, he hardly missed games.
I really like your content and how you construct it! That marker pen board reminds me of The Hockey Guy who has created similar videos of NHL hockey for years. I have been waiting for a similar NBA channel and here we are! This table was very, very informative indeed. The most surprising fact was probably LeBron only being T27 in 3-pt% at his best, just slightly higher than David Robinson for example. I assume that list of players is your top 25 from 25 to 1 and I do appreciate your list! I can agree with most of them choices over there. I have 'only' made a top 15 list myself but I guess I can share it here still. 1. Michael Jordan 2. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. I just can't put one above another because they were the 80s and different sides of the same coin. Tied! 4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 5. Kobe Bryant 6. LeBron James 7. Wilt Chamberlain 8. Hakeem Olajuwon 9. Shaquille O'Neal 10. Tim Duncan 11. Bill Russell 12. Jerry West 13. Oscar Robertson 14. Julius Erving 15. Elgin Baylor Some say I'm a hater because I have LeBron 'only at 6th' but when looking at your list I think I might be even a bit generous towards him. I could see an argument made that Hakeem and Duncan could be ranked above him. Same with Wilt if individual stats are a higher priority.
great stuff my man..not surprised by Lebron especially the rebounding, playing most of his career in a soft small ball era and with his size to only avg 7 rebounds per game is awful...also Jordan to be top 30ish in rebounding for a 2 guard in a physical, big man era is actually pretty good, ive been watching a lot of old mj games the last year and the one thing that has stood that i never paid a lot attention to was his rebounding, especially offensive rebounds for a guard
@kb2602 yes, he was excellent at it and that is where he ranked the lowest at least on here. Of course all of this does give you an idea of a players potential but there's so much more like IQ, elevating teammates, coming up big in close games, on ball defending, help defense and much more. Thank you for your input
I’d take Jordon, Bird, Magic and Kobe over Lebron any day. In a time when Ballers were men those guys were stone cold killers. I don’t know, but I think having 6 elbows in your face going up to the rim and still being able to drill the basket makes you better than any player in today’s league.
like your list of top 25, except for one eye-sore, LeLegCramp, all his stats are inflated thanks to the new rules and refs being his best teammates. I won't go into that any further than this. My top 25 FAVORITE, not in any specific order; Alvin Robertson Vince Carter Kermit Washington Maurice Lucas Bill Russell Wilt Oscar West Bird Magic Cousy Pistol MJ Admiral Moses Malone Dumars Hakeem McHale Dr J Petit Baylor Thurmond Grant Hill Arvydas Sabonis Hondo I don't do top best lists cause its too hard and I generally consider it useless and a waste of time. Cheers my dude!!! P.s. LeBitch will never make any list of mine.
Hey I get it. It is very hard to do a list but the only way I thought I could do it is thru an unbiased criteria system and it took me probably 150 hours. Bill Russell was #2 by a big margin and Jordan #1 but not by a huge margin over Russell and if someone says Russell is the GOAT, I'm good with it. He has a strong case. I think Bobby Knight said it best in about 2019, Russell is the most valuable player ever and Jordan is the best player
@@NBAFactsSelfResearched these so called GOAT lists create debates, and usually these boil down to name calling and childish insults especially when dealing with LeGcramp fanboys. You do meticulous research and really get deep into it. Which is why I liked your channel, I dont go around liking random channels if their author is a douche nozzle. And you are spot on, the real debate is between MJ and Russell. Lewhatever isn't even in their galaxy. I just plain dont like Kobe for too many reasons to list.
You see, they expect you to be asleep and stupid; so therefore the athleticism and skill of the modern basketball player precludes them from the free-throw line in all non competitive games which includes regular season games that don't feature marquee teams. Don't question the focal point and legitimacy of the makes his teammates better narrative of your king ever again. After all, Laker records are falling left and right; he's got to be inspiring the modern player to be as great as he pretends to be every night.
Elgin Bird Doc And a prime Connie Hawkins whom most people don’t know what that is, eclipse lbj by far They above MJ too with doc being debatable but not nearly as big as the gap between them and lbj
I wouldn't say they eclipse MJ, even being smaller, he is right in there as well across the board. The playoffs is the separator but other than Baylor, none of those guys were dropping 40-50 as often as MJ was
@ well Baylor is actually shorter than MJ yet could play 1-4 and listed as a 3 but rebounded like an ALL TIME 5 while putting up MJ like scoring in both postseaon and regular season with no 3 ball despite having range and no wrist carrying allowed and no backdown punishment allowed on less sturdy hoops with both zone and 2 hand checking instead of 1 in a league that MJs era themselves admit was more physical than theirs etc…. It’s just no comparison when you look at those things showing what elgin brings to the table over a Mike. Plus he is close in assists despite his era assist counting rules being far harder than mikes era. And when you watch him play u can tell magic got alot of his passing and handle ability from elgin back to basket especially but that’s starting to be besides the point. Point is these objective things show elgin brings more to the table Bird and doc definitely closer but when I see how bird is able to be right there with MJ only 6 less ppg without ever scoring 60 or avg 30 plus and dominance with a team that won close to 30 games and his ability to either beat you scoring or passing or both and versatile defense with big like rebounding and playmaking even better than guards like MJ, I have to give bird the edge over Mike. Doc it depends on how much better of a scorer and passer you might think MJ is vs how much of a better overall defender and rebounder you may think Doc is. I can see that being debatable more than the bird argument
@ lbj is below them all But yes they were superior players esp elgin. bird did not accomplish what Lebron accomplished and had more help around him than lbj when looking at the entire team matchups and depth The same holds true for Mike. So why keep that energy for bird over lbj but not Mike? The player Mike was, was a 6’6 guard who could get you all time scoring and steals under easier conditions than the player elgin was era at 6’5 who could get you all time scoring and far more all time rebounding than MJ could get you all time steals, plus more versatile defense and offense. Elgin had MJs situatuon pre 91 his entire career relative to the competition he faced and under tougher challenges he constantly made the finals with a superior statline So yes he is very much so the player Mike us and then some Bird is 6’10 SF who can guard 1-4 well and who can play 1-4 on offense and still pass and rebound more better than Mike can score better than bird And he won thru the 80s which is the superior to the 90s inheriting a team nowhere near making the playoffs and sending them immediately to second round and then dynasty in an era against the likes of Doc moses, hakeem Ralph, magic Kareem worthy showtime. No comparison So yes bird is every bit the player Mike is and a lilbit more too
@ elgin had far less help than MJ relative to his comp The ratios are laughable Bird elgin doc have less accomplishments than lbj yet they are better. Your glossing over that fact just as well as glossing over the fact that the same exact statement applies to Mike. No matter what you repeat without backing it up, it doesn’t change the facts that Elgin and bird are better players than MJ for the reasons listed above left unaddressed bringing more to the table than Mike and bron. Truth is truth. Our biases mean nothing
@ elgin led in scoring 4x in postseaon and played with scorers that far outclass MJs scoring competition. That’s as dishonest of a take as it gets Elgin played in the era where the goat wilt Chamberlain played who owned majority of the scoring rebounding and block titles. Drop elgin stats in MJs era we clearly see the dent of dominance elgin has with multiple category stat titles. However, that’s besides the point since leading the league in something is not required to be better than someone else in history who does since it’s not the same era that’s not needed to be better than someone else in history What’s needed is the facts beyond opinion that can’t be disputed such as who brings more to the table and under what level of challenges. Elgin easily for the clear cut reasons above that are indisputable since it’s all documented set in stone And when we watch them I agree we see whose better. Elgin plays more positions on both ends and far out classes Mike on the boards. He also is a flashier passer while MJ edges out more total assists and averages due to his rules allowing an assist to count after 2 dribbles of the player catching the ball where as that was not allowed in Elgins career. It doesn’t matter who you said was better than Lebron. I’m correcting all your points. But yes I agree all you said was bird was better which is exactly why I said you need to keep the same energy cuz your reasons for having bird above Lebron contradict your reasons for having bird below Mike. Truth is truth no matter how much we try to play cognitive dissonance and bias games. It is what it is bro.
I appreciate the research to debunk LeBron's statistical dominance, because even statistically he isn't dominant. There is some context for LeBron's stats (this is not to defend him) because he was primarily playing as a guard on offense for a lot of those early years. Your title is somewhat misleading, because you missed guys like Havlicek, Rick Barry, Dominique Wilkins, and though he is not an SF, Sir Chuck. You can do a follow-up on this with some advanced stats, especially for team's winning percentages, records in playoff series including record of opponents, etc. LeBron was phenomenal as a young player, and it's a shame he was surrounded by a management team that didn't get him to improve. Imagine if he learned how to play within a structured offense like the triangle, where he could have developed proper habits, or learned more off-ball skills.
It isn't just about small forwards but my top 25, I only discovered after that all the great small forwards were actually better all around at one point or another. Those players you mentioned are not in my top 25.
He's not, not even close but I understand why you think so. The media has hyped him up like this. They ignore his failures and just focus on his stats and longevity. It isn't 2012 anymore
@ Saying he’s not close is objectively false starters. He’s at very worst the second best player of all time. Personally if people have Michael Jordan as the goat I don’t really have a problem, he was phenomenal. It’s just this narrative that LeBron isn’t in the goat debate that really frustrates me, it seems like people can’t accept that mj has competition. Theres no need to ignore his failures, but really his only true failure was in the 2011 finals. I agree it isn’t 2012 anymore, so people should get over 2011 which was 14 years ago and see that LeBron has continued to dominate. It’s only with LeBron that people want to say longevity isn’t an argument, only with LeBron do people say that stats don’t matter. He’s dominated the most talented era of basketball for longer than anyone ever, that’s what goats do. He’s so good people have lost track of how long he’s been dominating, only with LeBron do people get so mad they feel the need to hate on him before they leave. Of course I’m not saying you do any of this I’m just saying many people do this to LeBron because they deny his greatness. If he hadn’t spent his first decade on a terrible cavaliers team, or if he didn’t lose Kyrie and love in 2015, or if he didn’t get injured in 2021 when him and the lakers were doing very well. He’s been an extremely unlucky player. People also overrate his supporting cast. Anyway LeBron is definitely in the goat conversation with MJ. An argument can be made for Kareem as well
@NBAFactsSelfResearched… The medias daily lies and falsities are why his fans even started to think he was up that high. They hold him to an average level players standard with accountability and all the excuses.
So the rankings for Bron are: 1, 15, 1, 3, 39, 82, 27...even considering how you left out overall FG% (4th) or any advanced stats, how's that falling short? I'll replay this - it's a fascinating topic and I appreciate that you take the time to do this kind of research - but I feel like you outlined why he's the top forward, if anything. Who else was top 3 in 3 categories besides Bird, whose only title is free throws? This only exposed that Bron, relative to above-average guards and wings, is a below-average FT shooter, but we knew this. How big of a deal is that, if we're saying FG% isn't worth discussing? And yes, KD's underrated and Kobe's overrated. The research shouldn't have been surprising; traditional and advanced stats have always corroborated this. To defend KD, pre-Achilles tear his issue was that there were always teams better than OKC, and post-Achilles...well, harder to defend some of those playoff exits but it's post-Achilles. For lesser athletes that's essentially a career-ending injury. He shouldn't even still be this good, certainly not this deep into his 30s.
John Havlicek and Rick Barry are others that rank high as well in the available stats. LeBrons free throw shooting puts him way outside of Dr. J, Bird, Elgin Baylor or KD
I think its the fact that he played sooo long you would think he would have multiple assist and scoring titles w the way they call him the best passer in the league and best scorer ever. Would expect to rank higher in blocks and especially rebounds too w the way they hyperbolize his athleticism and defense. Also there is no real excuse for pre-Achilles Durant. His team was a juggernaut and had the warriors down 3-1. Its not like he was on a non contender like a prime tmac.
@NBAFactsSelfResearched Legitimately surprised and impressed by Barry's numbers-- I'd imagine three 1's, a 5, and a 10 give him the highest average score out of everyone. But Hondo never led the league in anything, never made the RPG leaderboards, never shot higher than 46%, and predates the 3pt line. I guess the title's misleading. Sounds like you're really just saying "other SFs have had seasons where they've finished higher on the leaderboards in something than he ever has, also he really should be way better at FTs than he is". Understandably that's too long to be a title. Fair enough.
@lymphomasurvive answer this honestly: what is it about the shortened regular seasons in 2012 and 2020 that delegitimizes the playoff results that followed the standard 4 round, 16 team, 7-7-7-7 format? Which team(s) half-assed their way through the season and playoffs bc they didn't think the title counted the same w/o the full 82?
When Comparing LeBron to other all time great SFs in all stat categories, he falls short
Player PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FT% 3 PT %
25 Nikola jokic 10th 2nd 3rd 12th T-30th 26th 65th
24 Giannis Antetokounmpo 2nd 2nd 14th T-11th 6th 72nd 79th
23 Elgin Baylor 2nd 3rd 14th N/A N/A 8th N/A
22 David Robinson 1st 1st T-36th T-5th 1st T-80th 35th
21 Bob Petiit 1st 2nd 14th N/A N/A T-10th N/A
20 Kevin Durant 1st 19th T-20th T-30th T-24th 1st T-6th
19 Kevin Garnett 3rd 1st 14th T-17th T-9th T-18th T-50th
18 Karl Malone 2nd 18th T-30th T-6th T-18th T-48th N/A
17 George Mikan 1st 1st 8th N/A N/A 8th N/A
16 Oscar Robinson 1st 9th 1st N/A N/A 1st N/A
15 Steph Curry 1st T-53rd 5th 1st 91st 1st 2nd
14 Moses Malone 2nd 1st T-133rd T-60th T-10th 38th N/A
13 Jerry West 1st T-21st 1st N/A N/A 3rd N/A
12 Julius Irving (Dr. J) 4th T-25th T-25th 7th T-10th 13th N/A
11 LeBron James 1st T-15th 1st 3rd T-39th 82nd T-27th
10 Shaquille O'Neal 1st 2nd T-54 T-107th 2nd 120th N/A
9 Tim Duncan 5th 2nd T-49th T-106th 3rd 58th N/A
8 Hakeem Olajuwon 3rd 1st T-64th 6th 1st 71st N/A
7 Wilt Chamberlain 1st 1st 2nd N/A N/A 34th N/A
6 Larry Bird 2nd 4th 13th T-8th T-42nd 1st 2nd
5 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1st 1st T-15th T-22nd 1st 53rd N/A
4 Kobe Bryant 1st T-46th T-19th T-5th T-43rd 12th 27th
3 Magic Johnson 10th 12th 1st 1st T-56th 1st 18th
2 Bill Russell 17th 1st 6th N/A N/A 28th N/A
1 Michael Jordan 1st T-32nd 10th 1st T-17th 16th T-10th
Anybody who walks around with a t-shirt on that says "Check My Stats" is a stat whore.
Problem is, LeBron's too stupid to see his own faults. In 22 seasons LeBron has led in two
end-of-season stat titles. If he thinks 2-22 is pretty good, well, it gets worse for him. Out of
a possible 154 total stat titles, LeBron has, um, TWO! Also, for all those Jordan haters that
say MJ's weakness was shooting threes, what does that say about LeBron? Again, LeBron's
fanboys take after LeBron, they're too stupid to know what WTF they're talking about.
As always. Very appreciated. And, as always, LeBron Ain't No GOAT!!
Thanks Fernando as always
Honestly all those players that you mentioned above are all better/greater players then Lebron except Giannis
However, I will still take Giannis over Lebron any day of the weak even though Lebron is more skilled compared to Giannis.
Reason being that Giannis plays both sides of the floor & is a vastly better defender then Lebron ever was. Plus Giannis has better intangibles than Lebron. Also Giannis actually won the right way without short cutting the process and without cheating
@@Josh-sk5xd True. LeBron is the only player of those 25 that has quit during games and never takes responsibility for his team's losing.
You are unbearable lmao
Fair. Let’s be fair.
Jordan counted his scoring every single quarter for his entire career.*
No “check my stats” shirt the soft pathetic man had it tattooed to the inside of his eye lids lol
*confirmed by Carmelo Anthony when he won the scoring title citing Jordan for the advice Jordan gave him.
Lebron is easily one of the worst rebounders ever for his size and position 6’9 260 and averages 7💀
Now that is truth right there. Offensive rebounding is horrible because it takes too much effort
@ agreed he probably dont wanna chip a nail😂
When Wilt set the ASG record with 42 points in 1962, he was 8 of 16 from the foul line.
In that game, there were 94 free throw attempts between both teams (51 and 43) and there were 63 fouls called.
When Anthony Davis scored 52 in 2017 to set the new record, he had ZERO free throw attempts.
In that 2017 game, there were 8 free throw attempts...4 for EACH team!
The 2017 teans combined to commit 16 personal fouls (11 and 5).
The ASG has been a joke for MANY years
Its insane when I saw that. I had to share it because I have never heard it before. The NBA died in about 2014
Crazy.
He will be on top of them in TO's for sure. He just added another 7
Oh no doubt. He's makes some of the worst passes. Not trying to force it in, he does those too, but passes where there's nobody there
Effects of balco halluscinating at times
Once again, a video I love. You come up with great perspectives to look at the game.
Thanks my man, I appreciate that
Said it before and even in this format it still holds true, larry bird was the most complete bball player and had no glaring weaknesses.
KD finished higher in blocks when bpg leaders are like 2.5bpg.
Bird was in an era with guys avg over 5 regularly.
Another thing that stood out is David Robinson compared to olajuwon. Ive been saying this for a while too,..Robinson and olajuwon had similar stats and both got 2 rings yet people dont even have Robinson in their top 20 often.
Robinson has the highest combined blocks per game and steals per game ever in a season, not Hakeem.
@MJIZZEL I got Robinson at #22. He had a few worse playoff failures and Hakeem winning the back to back. Only player to never be the #1 seed or won 60 games and won multiple championships. As an individual player, Robinson scores very high. The winning is the only thing holding him back. Had he won it in 1995 as the best player, Robinson is in my top 15, possibly top 12. Robinson was no bum, that's for sure. Birds issue is like Robinson, he took a lot of upsets but some of them were barely upsets. Bird was my favorite player growing up. I wanted to ignore this stuff but it was becoming too much to put him in the top 5. But I have him at 6, but it's a virtual tie between Magic, Kobe, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Olajuwon. MJ #1, Russell #2, then any order you want for these 6, #3-#8
@NBAFactsSelfResearched I agree with everything you said here. Thanks for noticing how good Robinson was as many today have the guy ranked very low. Definitely should've won in 95 With how good he and that team were.
Man another thing I'm glad you notice is how good kobe was. It's like he has to be put down too because he's been the closest to a "Next Jordan " that we've had since Mike himself. Idiotic the way these young fans critique kobe and say he was carried by shaq.
Go look at those 3 rings in context.
The true finals were the WCF all three years and it was kobe who was leading that teak on scoring and more importantly, in 4th quarter scoring. Yet they say he was carried. Same idiots refuse to say that about pippen tho.
They are so contradictory.
Love this channel man. Hope it blows up. I got bird ahead of Kobe tho but it's matter of personal perspective when it gets that close. God Bless
So get this, for LeBron's playoff seasons 2008-2014 (his last Miami year) he averages 6.3 assists per game in 41.8 minutes. Tracy McGrady for his playoff seasons 2001-2008 averages 6.5 assists in 42.6 minutes. Those are LeBron's age 23-29 years, basically his prime. McGrady averages more assists. And yes I have Tracy McGrady as the better player than LeBron James, just use the eye test. And Tracy got injured outside of age 25. After age 25 he was cooked like Penny. I did this for a bunch of players like Barkley and they outperform LeBron in the playoffs. 1986-1994 Barkley in the playoffs averages 4.7 assists. So he is close as well and averages 13.6 rebounds.
???
McGrady's 01-08 sample is like 35 games; that's not even half a season. And we're talking 43/29/76 shooting splits in exclusively first round exits.
"Eye test" is probably the worst way to evaluate this. McGrady's prime was 20 years ago; any "eye test" for him is going to be selective memory and highlights.
@@karimglasgow5518 I don't think the production drops if he plays 100 games. McGrady is clearly the better player. The whole team shot 41% in the 2007 and 2008 playoffs with no Yao in 2008. McGrady did his best playoff shooting 2002-2005 where he had a 50% eFG%. Anyways LeBron is not a better passer than McGrady. Rick Barry averaged 5.9 assists per game in the playoffs 1975-1977 in the same amount of minutes as LeBron. He played most of his athletic prime before that in the ABA. I think a lot of people would have Rick Barry as the better passer than LeBron as well. Elgin was clearly the better passer as well. He never got the chance to play point forward though.
@Daniel_Moore3 02-05, means 50% eFG in 18 games while Bron's career playoff eFG is 53.7% in 287 games.
BTW Bron's career playoff APG is 7.2. Using your logic that higher playoff APG with no regard to strength of schedule makes prime McGrady a slightly better passer than prime Bron, there's no way to argue that past his prime Bron isn't a much better passer than prime McGrady.
Won't debate Barry or Baylor because I've never seen them play. I will say, the few highlights I've seen of Baylor don't quite match the way other players from that era mythologize his athleticism and suggest he was Doc and MJ before Doc and MJ. I'm sure he was elite relative to his contemporaries, but I didn't see the "decide in the air" hops I expected.
@I'm not sure where to rank LeBron, probably somewhere around Dominique Wilkins. He is definitely not top 30 though. Keep in mind prime Dominique Wilkins wins the 2011 championship with Wade and Bosh in replace of LeBron. We have had about 65 years of great basketball leagues, LeBron is not top 30 in my opinion. Angry Old Hoops talks about this, what is so amazing about his style of play?
@@karimglasgow5518 To understand Baylor watch his 1958 college championship highlights on UA-cam with the good camera angles. You can also watch his 1969 all-star game highlights. If you count 1974 (.899) Barry had a 90% free throw % or better for 8 straight seasons. LeBron is around these guys in my opinion. And I personally think LeBron is a center and should have played center to inspire people. Would have liked to see LeBron go up against Shaq. Him and Ben Wallace have similar heights.
Excellent video man! For me personally, I don't have lebron over Dr. J, Bird, Havlichek . So the media making it a runaway case that he is the greatest small forward is laughable. And I'm so tired of them dismissing Dr. J like he was a nobody. The man led the league in scoring 3 times, has 4 mvps, 3 chips, the best shot blocking small forward of all time. Better rebounder and pocket picker than lebron. It's a joke at how they omit Dr. J and leap frog lebron over everybody. ESPN is a joke. Nobody who actually watched the game, knows the history, can sit here and honestly say lebron is 2nd best all time in history or even the goat. It's beyond laughable.
@fithealth247 Absolutely! I tell people Clyde Drexler was a great player, he beat high level teams without a HOF teammate until he got to Houston. He filled up the stat sheet and was an excellent all around player and very deserving of Top 75. He is a poor man's version of Dr. J. His 76ers beat the Celtics twice in the early 80s and he was BY FAR the best player the ABA ever saw. I have him at #12 and I often wonder if I have messed up by not putting him in the top 10. His longevity was also excellent. His age 36-37 season, he was still a legitimate all star and very productive player
I totally agree and it's laughable when people say Jordan didnt play anyone in the finals..as if those blazers teams was garbage. Heck, outside of the Walton led Blazers, we can say that those look late 80s to early 90s blazers were the best blazers teams in team history. And that 92 blazer team had 5 all star players in duckworth, buck Williams, Danny ainge, terry porter and Clyde. C'mon man lol. Nobody back then was calling those blazers garbage. Also with Dr J we can say that he probably is the most influential and important player in history merging the ABA with the NBA. And seeing how influential the ABA was to the NBA with the NBA adopting stuff from the ABA. I would put Dr J in my top 10. I gave bird and Dr j in my top 10. I would give you my top 15 in order. Jordan, wilt, Kareem, magic, Russell, Hakeem, bird, Dr j, Kobe, Duncan, Havlichek, Oscar, Baylor Lebron and Shaq
Another great video Jim!
I always suspected that not only was LeBron’s “goat” argument fabricated, but his place as the best “small-forward” too…
When arguing Jordan’s case, there is always context or nuance in the positive…
But, LeBron’s failures are just that, abject failures…
No context, he had everything in his favour including referees & collusion & still choked far more often than he performed…
Then there’s the continuing massive “free-throw” disparity despite not being in the top 15 in drives to the basket (last time I checked)…
On another note, the “King” was definitely the “king-of-turnovers” today…SEVEN 😂😂😂
Thank you, and no I don't think LeBron had to deal with all time great forwards in his division like Bird and Dr. J did. Jordan had Isiah and Dumars, Dominique, Reggie, Sidney Moncrief, Miller in his division. LeBron really had none of that all the way thru. Imagine being Dr. J or Bird and playing each other 6x regular season and another 6 in the playoffs every year
13:45 The LeVisionist Historians can understand the concept of increased shot attempts = increased shot difficulty when it comes to Steph and why he’s considered the best 3pt shooter, but when it comes to MJ all understanding of nuance flies out the window and his scoring titles and scoring accolades are bc he just “took more shots.”
They will shamelessly make this painfully dumb argument then call YOU the ‘casual’ with a bunch of “I’m crying laughing at you!” emojis attached. Those emojis are the reason you’ll see LeBron’s loyal subjects use them ALL THE TIME bc, in my opinion, they are a defense mechanism of their subconscious. They know in their core what they are saying is illogical, but since they are the ones laughing at you, they must be winning the argument regardless
I've gotten them so many times. Never rebuttal just dumb comments
🎯🎯💯💯
Why was Jordan so unintelligent as to force so many bad shots?
@@willemcenter8649 huh? He’s got one of the best FG% among shooting guards all time. He’s got twice as many 40pt games where he shot better than 50% than Lebron has 40pt games period. Did you mean to say something that wasn’t what you just said?
@@MrKurtykurt nope. 100% meant what I said.
The post I’m replying to is talking about how taking smart shots is a point of value for the newer players, but it is somehow forgotten for Jordan. Claiming that Jordans efficiency would be better if he didn’t have to take as many shots (which he didn’t)
The mathematics don’t change, meaning that any shooting % you post is still brought down by Jordan being inept at the game and forcing foolish ego driven shots over effective basketball.
Jordan picked to play loser ball over making the smart play. Which is dumb.
Jokic this season so far is top 5 in ppg, assists, rebounds, steals, and LEADS 3pt%! So safe to say this season he's gonna be top 5 or at least top 10 in all those, just crazy.
So MJ was once top 10 in 3pt%??! And haters say he cannot shoot 3s. 😄 Isn't he the most well rounded guard in the list? His 32nd in rebounds also actually was top 5/10 for a guard right? Maybe to further put context into this you may want to list the ranking within their respective position.
Btw yeah I think you should've added TOV or TOV% cuz it's a major stat category too.
I know, I'm kicking myself for not doing turnovers. But it's another stat that I couldn't get the older players in and that always bugs me because I would've loved to have seen that
Don't worry, Lebum has the most TO ever and most missed shots too.
You did good on your Bill Russell versus LeBron debate. After looking at most of Russell's available online film he was a mix between Pippen, Rodman, and Mutombo. And yes I agree, Bill Russell is the better player and it is not close. I listened to an interview where Bill said Wilt called him the best rebounder he has ever seen. I would say Russell in his 30's was a better athlete than Jordan in his 30's. So I would say it is highly possible Russell was the better athlete than Jordan when both in their 20's. Russell was ranked #2 and #3 in the high jump in the world back in 1956. Part of the problem is the camera angles from most of the 1960's games make the players look smaller. It is different camera angles. Russell was huge.
Bill Russell made average players good, good players great. But nobody will ever touch 10-0 in Game 7s and 17-1 when facing elimination
@ 5 blocks in the 1969 all-star game in 28 minutes. Most athletic person on the court at age 33.
Crazy Larry Bird was top 13 in almost all of those categories.
Players being ranked number one in more then one category is also insanely impressive.
Another crazy stat I heard of about Jordan is he only had the ball in his hands for 3 minutes per game to score 30 points per game.
Yeah Bird was literally good at everything. Not a premiere shot blocker but his lack of athleticism explains that easily. Jordan was such an efficient scorer. I heard him one time say that defenses were game planning him so he would make his move immediately to avoid a set defense. So I believe it. Makes perfect sense
@@NBAFactsSelfResearched I’m not sure that applies to Jordan’s overall career but It seems like that’s the case.
Edit: It is also a reason why he didn’t need to shoot the three that much.
Evidence of the 3 minutes? That seems wildly impossible. About 16 players hit the court and game is 48 minutes. That’s 3 per player if divided evenly but Jordan is holding the ball more than anyone else on his team
@ Really dude? Doesn’t seem like you have seen Jordan play at all to be saying that bull crap.
@@KevinLiuK you do realize how time and math work right? It’s literally impossible unless you think he’s holding the ball less than the bench players and still taking the most shots (by a country mile)
I looked up Havlicek. He was 2nd in PPG, 4th in APG, 22nd in RPG, and 4th in FT%.
I didn't even do Havlicek or Kawhi Leonard. I bet his numbers are comparable or better than Lebron too
and he was an iron man, no resting , full seasons at top level.
Havlicek was one of the first multi-tool players. He and Sam Jones were the prototypical sixth men. Havlicek was also good enough to play both guard spots. And, as correctly pointed out, he hardly missed games.
I really like your content and how you construct it! That marker pen board reminds me of The Hockey Guy who has created similar videos of NHL hockey for years. I have been waiting for a similar NBA channel and here we are! This table was very, very informative indeed. The most surprising fact was probably LeBron only being T27 in 3-pt% at his best, just slightly higher than David Robinson for example.
I assume that list of players is your top 25 from 25 to 1 and I do appreciate your list! I can agree with most of them choices over there. I have 'only' made a top 15 list myself but I guess I can share it here still.
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. I just can't put one above another because they were the 80s and different sides of the same coin. Tied!
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Kobe Bryant
6. LeBron James
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Tim Duncan
11. Bill Russell
12. Jerry West
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Julius Erving
15. Elgin Baylor
Some say I'm a hater because I have LeBron 'only at 6th' but when looking at your list I think I might be even a bit generous towards him. I could see an argument made that Hakeem and Duncan could be ranked above him. Same with Wilt if individual stats are a higher priority.
Your list is very similar to mine, but I value winning and the ability to maximize your teammates and none did it better than Russell
great stuff my man..not surprised by Lebron especially the rebounding, playing most of his career in a soft small ball era and with his size to only avg 7 rebounds per game is awful...also Jordan to be top 30ish in rebounding for a 2 guard in a physical, big man era is actually pretty good, ive been watching a lot of old mj games the last year and the one thing that has stood that i never paid a lot attention to was his rebounding, especially offensive rebounds for a guard
@kb2602 yes, he was excellent at it and that is where he ranked the lowest at least on here. Of course all of this does give you an idea of a players potential but there's so much more like IQ, elevating teammates, coming up big in close games, on ball defending, help defense and much more. Thank you for your input
I’d take Jordon, Bird, Magic and Kobe over Lebron any day.
In a time when Ballers were men those guys were stone cold killers. I don’t know, but I think having 6 elbows in your face going up to the rim and still being able to drill the basket makes you better than any player in today’s league.
On that we agree, no doubt. Not sure why the Lakers don't trade this guy
Lebrons career FT % is the same as David Robinson. As a perimeter player that is terrible.
like your list of top 25, except for one eye-sore, LeLegCramp, all his stats are inflated thanks to the new rules and refs being his best teammates. I won't go into that any further than this. My top 25 FAVORITE, not in any specific order;
Alvin Robertson
Vince Carter
Kermit Washington
Maurice Lucas
Bill Russell
Wilt
Oscar
West
Bird
Magic
Cousy
Pistol
MJ
Admiral
Moses Malone
Dumars
Hakeem
McHale
Dr J
Petit
Baylor
Thurmond
Grant Hill
Arvydas Sabonis
Hondo
I don't do top best lists cause its too hard and I generally consider it useless and a waste of time.
Cheers my dude!!!
P.s. LeBitch will never make any list of mine.
Hey I get it. It is very hard to do a list but the only way I thought I could do it is thru an unbiased criteria system and it took me probably 150 hours. Bill Russell was #2 by a big margin and Jordan #1 but not by a huge margin over Russell and if someone says Russell is the GOAT, I'm good with it. He has a strong case. I think Bobby Knight said it best in about 2019, Russell is the most valuable player ever and Jordan is the best player
@@NBAFactsSelfResearched these so called GOAT lists create debates, and usually these boil down to name calling and childish insults especially when dealing with LeGcramp fanboys. You do meticulous research and really get deep into it. Which is why I liked your channel, I dont go around liking random channels if their author is a douche nozzle. And you are spot on, the real debate is between MJ and Russell. Lewhatever isn't even in their galaxy. I just plain dont like Kobe for too many reasons to list.
You see, they expect you to be asleep and stupid; so therefore the athleticism and skill of the modern basketball player precludes them from the free-throw line in all non competitive games which includes regular season games that don't feature marquee teams. Don't question the focal point and legitimacy of the makes his teammates better narrative of your king ever again. After all, Laker records are falling left and right; he's got to be inspiring the modern player to be as great as he pretends to be every night.
Couldn't have said it better. Insightful take
Elgin
Bird
Doc
And a prime Connie Hawkins whom most people don’t know what that is, eclipse lbj by far
They above MJ too with doc being debatable but not nearly as big as the gap between them and lbj
I wouldn't say they eclipse MJ, even being smaller, he is right in there as well across the board. The playoffs is the separator but other than Baylor, none of those guys were dropping 40-50 as often as MJ was
@ well Baylor is actually shorter than MJ yet could play 1-4 and listed as a 3 but rebounded like an ALL TIME 5 while putting up MJ like scoring in both postseaon and regular season with no 3 ball despite having range and no wrist carrying allowed and no backdown punishment allowed on less sturdy hoops with both zone and 2 hand checking instead of 1 in a league that MJs era themselves admit was more physical than theirs etc…. It’s just no comparison when you look at those things showing what elgin brings to the table over a Mike. Plus he is close in assists despite his era assist counting rules being far harder than mikes era. And when you watch him play u can tell magic got alot of his passing and handle ability from elgin back to basket especially but that’s starting to be besides the point. Point is these objective things show elgin brings more to the table
Bird and doc definitely closer but when I see how bird is able to be right there with MJ only 6 less ppg without ever scoring 60 or avg 30 plus and dominance with a team that won close to 30 games and his ability to either beat you scoring or passing or both and versatile defense with big like rebounding and playmaking even better than guards like MJ, I have to give bird the edge over Mike. Doc it depends on how much better of a scorer and passer you might think MJ is vs how much of a better overall defender and rebounder you may think Doc is. I can see that being debatable more than the bird argument
@ lbj is below them all
But yes they were superior players esp elgin.
bird did not accomplish what Lebron accomplished and had more help around him than lbj when looking at the entire team matchups and depth
The same holds true for Mike.
So why keep that energy for bird over lbj but not Mike?
The player Mike was, was a 6’6 guard who could get you all time scoring and steals under easier conditions than the player elgin was era at 6’5 who could get you all time scoring and far more all time rebounding than MJ could get you all time steals, plus more versatile defense and offense.
Elgin had MJs situatuon pre 91 his entire career relative to the competition he faced and under tougher challenges he constantly made the finals with a superior statline
So yes he is very much so the player Mike us and then some
Bird is 6’10 SF who can guard 1-4 well and who can play 1-4 on offense and still pass and rebound more better than Mike can score better than bird And he won thru the 80s which is the superior to the 90s inheriting a team nowhere near making the playoffs and sending them immediately to second round and then dynasty in an era against the likes of Doc moses, hakeem Ralph, magic Kareem worthy showtime. No comparison
So yes bird is every bit the player Mike is and a lilbit more too
@ elgin had far less help than MJ relative to his comp The ratios are laughable
Bird elgin doc have less accomplishments than lbj yet they are better. Your glossing over that fact just as well as glossing over the fact that the same exact statement applies to Mike.
No matter what you repeat without backing it up, it doesn’t change the facts that Elgin and bird are better players than MJ for the reasons listed above left unaddressed bringing more to the table than Mike and bron. Truth is truth. Our biases mean nothing
@ elgin led in scoring 4x in postseaon and played with scorers that far outclass MJs scoring competition. That’s as dishonest of a take as it gets Elgin played in the era where the goat wilt Chamberlain played who owned majority of the scoring rebounding and block titles. Drop elgin stats in MJs era we clearly see the dent of dominance elgin has with multiple category stat titles. However, that’s besides the point since leading the league in something is not required to be better than someone else in history who does since it’s not the same era
that’s not needed to be better than someone else in history What’s needed is the facts beyond opinion that can’t be disputed such as who brings more to the table and under what level of challenges. Elgin easily for the clear cut reasons above that are indisputable since it’s all documented set in stone
And when we watch them I agree we see whose better. Elgin plays more positions on both ends and far out classes Mike on the boards. He also is a flashier passer while MJ edges out more total assists and averages due to his rules allowing an assist to count after 2 dribbles of the player catching the ball where as that was not allowed in Elgins career.
It doesn’t matter who you said was better than Lebron. I’m correcting all your points.
But yes I agree all you said was bird was better which is exactly why I said you need to keep the same energy cuz your reasons for having bird above Lebron contradict your reasons for having bird below Mike.
Truth is truth no matter how much we try to play cognitive dissonance and bias games. It is what it is bro.
Giannis, to me, could be great but it seems he’s not to sharp on the court. Otherwise, why hasn’t he won more
Did u include defensive rating?
No or turnovers. I didn't have enough room on my white board. Wish I did
I appreciate the research to debunk LeBron's statistical dominance, because even statistically he isn't dominant. There is some context for LeBron's stats (this is not to defend him) because he was primarily playing as a guard on offense for a lot of those early years.
Your title is somewhat misleading, because you missed guys like Havlicek, Rick Barry, Dominique Wilkins, and though he is not an SF, Sir Chuck. You can do a follow-up on this with some advanced stats, especially for team's winning percentages, records in playoff series including record of opponents, etc.
LeBron was phenomenal as a young player, and it's a shame he was surrounded by a management team that didn't get him to improve. Imagine if he learned how to play within a structured offense like the triangle, where he could have developed proper habits, or learned more off-ball skills.
It isn't just about small forwards but my top 25, I only discovered after that all the great small forwards were actually better all around at one point or another. Those players you mentioned are not in my top 25.
Bron the goat brother
He's not, not even close but I understand why you think so. The media has hyped him up like this. They ignore his failures and just focus on his stats and longevity. It isn't 2012 anymore
@ Saying he’s not close is objectively false starters. He’s at very worst the second best player of all time. Personally if people have Michael Jordan as the goat I don’t really have a problem, he was phenomenal. It’s just this narrative that LeBron isn’t in the goat debate that really frustrates me, it seems like people can’t accept that mj has competition. Theres no need to ignore his failures, but really his only true failure was in the 2011 finals. I agree it isn’t 2012 anymore, so people should get over 2011 which was 14 years ago and see that LeBron has continued to dominate. It’s only with LeBron that people want to say longevity isn’t an argument, only with LeBron do people say that stats don’t matter. He’s dominated the most talented era of basketball for longer than anyone ever, that’s what goats do. He’s so good people have lost track of how long he’s been dominating, only with LeBron do people get so mad they feel the need to hate on him before they leave. Of course I’m not saying you do any of this I’m just saying many people do this to LeBron because they deny his greatness. If he hadn’t spent his first decade on a terrible cavaliers team, or if he didn’t lose Kyrie and love in 2015, or if he didn’t get injured in 2021 when him and the lakers were doing very well. He’s been an extremely unlucky player. People also overrate his supporting cast. Anyway LeBron is definitely in the goat conversation with MJ. An argument can be made for Kareem as well
@@TinyCat1015 delete this nonsense. Lebron ain't even a top 10 greatest player of all time.
@@bmarsh333 yes he is. If you can’t provide evidence for your ludicrous claim then don’t respond
@NBAFactsSelfResearched…
The medias daily lies and falsities are why his fans even started to think he was up that high. They hold him to an average level players standard with accountability and all the excuses.
So the rankings for Bron are: 1, 15, 1, 3, 39, 82, 27...even considering how you left out overall FG% (4th) or any advanced stats, how's that falling short? I'll replay this - it's a fascinating topic and I appreciate that you take the time to do this kind of research - but I feel like you outlined why he's the top forward, if anything. Who else was top 3 in 3 categories besides Bird, whose only title is free throws?
This only exposed that Bron, relative to above-average guards and wings, is a below-average FT shooter, but we knew this. How big of a deal is that, if we're saying FG% isn't worth discussing?
And yes, KD's underrated and Kobe's overrated. The research shouldn't have been surprising; traditional and advanced stats have always corroborated this. To defend KD, pre-Achilles tear his issue was that there were always teams better than OKC, and post-Achilles...well, harder to defend some of those playoff exits but it's post-Achilles. For lesser athletes that's essentially a career-ending injury. He shouldn't even still be this good, certainly not this deep into his 30s.
LeBron only has 2 rings in full seasons and he has been credibly accused of juicing.
John Havlicek and Rick Barry are others that rank high as well in the available stats. LeBrons free throw shooting puts him way outside of Dr. J, Bird, Elgin Baylor or KD
I think its the fact that he played sooo long you would think he would have multiple assist and scoring titles w the way they call him the best passer in the league and best scorer ever. Would expect to rank higher in blocks and especially rebounds too w the way they hyperbolize his athleticism and defense. Also there is no real excuse for pre-Achilles Durant. His team was a juggernaut and had the warriors down 3-1. Its not like he was on a non contender like a prime tmac.
@NBAFactsSelfResearched Legitimately surprised and impressed by Barry's numbers-- I'd imagine three 1's, a 5, and a 10 give him the highest average score out of everyone.
But Hondo never led the league in anything, never made the RPG leaderboards, never shot higher than 46%, and predates the 3pt line.
I guess the title's misleading. Sounds like you're really just saying "other SFs have had seasons where they've finished higher on the leaderboards in something than he ever has, also he really should be way better at FTs than he is". Understandably that's too long to be a title. Fair enough.
@lymphomasurvive answer this honestly: what is it about the shortened regular seasons in 2012 and 2020 that delegitimizes the playoff results that followed the standard 4 round, 16 team, 7-7-7-7 format? Which team(s) half-assed their way through the season and playoffs bc they didn't think the title counted the same w/o the full 82?