"In 1967, Martin Seligman, one of the founders of Positive Psychology and his research group carried out a fascinating, if somewhat morally dubious experiment in his quest to understand the origins of depression. In this experiment, three groups of dogs were confined in harnesses. The dogs in group 1 were simply placed in their harnesses then released after a period of time, but the dogs in groups 2 and 3 did not have it so easy. Instead they were subjected to electric shocks that could only be stopped by pulling a lever. The difference was that the the dogs in group 2 had access to the lever, whereas the dogs in group 3 did not. Instead, the dogs in group 3 would only receive relief from the shocks when their pair in group 2 pressed the lever, with the result that they experienced the shocks as random events." wonder what happened to those dogs he used for his experiments.. because martin is certainly reaping the benefits of what he did to them and look at all the support he gets for having done this research, what a wonderful world.>:c
@@Ari_Madrid I'm not entirely sure what your purpose is for pointing out two points of Marty's life, "reaping the benefits" in the present and his research on learned helplessness half a century ago without exploring the journey in between he took to "reap the benefits." Marty has expressed much regret for his research on learned helplessness on "I'm a dog lover very difficult experiments to do. I found myself in the laboratory at age 21 that was doing shock experiments with dogs and as soon as I could get out if it I stopped doing experiments with dogs." He has and has had pet dogs himself, and there's no doubt in my mind that those experiments haunted Marty and that Marty did his best to care for those experimental dogs as he could. Also, he has expressed discontent with how the general media and mass public took to understand his research on learned helplessness. He expressed discontent because not only is his learned helplessness theory misguided and incomplete, but how people interpreted his learned helplessness theory is more times than not inaccurate in itself. That regret and discontent for doing this research is an important factor that lead to him heavily focusing on the positive side of psychology. It has been a tumultuous journey for him to get to where he is now, a journey far from rainbows and sunshines, including repairing rebuilding and redefining his relationships with his wife and daughter. Psychology originally only talked about the dark side of humans, and it was thanks to the the gall of Marty to face the systemic powers that would have otherwise kept Psychology still only focused on half of who people are. Plus, the whole idea of reaping the benefits is weird to me because researchers aren't exactly swimming in money unless they're being supported by things like Big Pharma. Research is a thankless job and the only people that ever really get to know about the research is other researchers. I hear you that what the dogs experienced is very horrific. But the idea of him reaping benefits from the support in his research on traumatizing dogs is halfway from the reality of what Marty's journey was really like. Only the positive half, and not the negative half about the cognitive dissonance with being both a dog lover and someone indoctrinated by the research world to focus on the dark, his unfathomable grind to challenge the status quo in the psychology research world, and the strain his efforts to make positive change in the world put on his relationships with his family.
This was so interesting and insightful. I liked how Dr Seligman clarified that he was not influenced by humanistic theory. Many a time in the study of postmodern psychology theories, we are taught or rather, it is implied that positive psychology grew from humanistic theory. So it was good to hear the facts facts from the horse's mouth. Brilliant interview!
@@ThePsychologyPodcast you clearly are ignoring the comments of his reported dog abuse/neglect done for his studies. why are you ignoring the comments? this is disgusting, the only videos done on this guy should include his victims and what he's done to them. I hope you never experience anything near the oppression and pain those dogs had to go thru. i know you dont say anything is funny but i cant help be reminded of the quote, everything is funny until it happens to you.
@@Ari_Madrid Everyone mostly has done the same amount of bad and good. Just in this case Marty is a public figure. He is a person, and like any other person has made mistakes. What makes him different is when most people are stuck in their ways, Marty has made incredible strides to change who he is. Please do not judge who Marty is solely based on what he did half a century ago. Who he is today is far from who he used to be.
@@AznDudeIsOn thank you for remaining objective and positive. I believe a person cannot learn if they are stuck on bias thoughts (unlike the Ari Madrid guy) lol
Why are the interviewer's questions disconnected to what Martin says? Were they pre-written? Especially when Martin was talking about learned optimism, and then the question was, "Was it hard working with dogs"
he was certainly on task when he was abusing dogs. "In 1967, Martin Seligman, one of the founders of Positive Psychology and his research group carried out a fascinating, if somewhat morally dubious experiment in his quest to understand the origins of depression. In this experiment, three groups of dogs were confined in harnesses. The dogs in group 1 were simply placed in their harnesses then released after a period of time, but the dogs in groups 2 and 3 did not have it so easy. Instead they were subjected to electric shocks that could only be stopped by pulling a lever. The difference was that the the dogs in group 2 had access to the lever, whereas the dogs in group 3 did not. Instead, the dogs in group 3 would only receive relief from the shocks when their pair in group 2 pressed the lever, with the result that they experienced the shocks as random events."
"In 1967, Martin Seligman, one of the founders of Positive Psychology and his research group carried out a fascinating, if somewhat morally dubious experiment in his quest to understand the origins of depression. In this experiment, three groups of dogs were confined in harnesses. The dogs in group 1 were simply placed in their harnesses then released after a period of time, but the dogs in groups 2 and 3 did not have it so easy. Instead they were subjected to electric shocks that could only be stopped by pulling a lever. The difference was that the the dogs in group 2 had access to the lever, whereas the dogs in group 3 did not. Instead, the dogs in group 3 would only receive relief from the shocks when their pair in group 2 pressed the lever, with the result that they experienced the shocks as random events."
Further to mine and others' comments about the horrific abuse of sentient beings to reach, quite frankly, obvious conclusions, this Is what a true scientist should believe...in the words of Albert Einstein: “A human being is a part of the whole, called by us Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.” ~ Albert Einstein
This is what Seligman CHOSE to do to over 150 dogs in his own words: "When an experimentally naive dog receives escape-avoidance training in a shuttle box, the following behavior typically occurs: at the onset of the first traumatic electric shock, the dog runs frantically about, defecating, urinating and howling, until it accidentally scrambles over the barrier and so escapes the shock. On the next trial, the dog, running and howling, crosses the barrier more quickly than on the preceding trial. This pattern continues until the dog learns to avoid shock altogether. Overmier and Seligman (1967) and Seligman and Maier (1967) found a striking difference between this pattern of behavior and that exhibited by dogs first given inescapable electric shocks in a Pavlovian hammock. Such a dog’s first reactions to shock in the shuttle box are much the same as those of a naive dog. In dramatic contrast to a naive dog, however, a typical dog which has experienced uncontrollable shocks before avoidance training soon stops running and howling and sits or lies, quietly whining, until shock terminates. The dog does not cross the barrier and escape from shock. Rather, it seems to give up and passively accepts the shock. On succeeding trials, the dog continues to fail to make escape movements and takes as much shock as the experimenter chooses to give. (Seligman, M.E. “Depression and Learned Helplessness.” In (R.J Friedmand and M.M. Katz Eds.) The Psychology of Depression: Contemporary Theory and Research. Washington D.C.: V.H. Winston and Sons, 1974."
It's not rocket science that any animal and that includes humans is pain adverse. The fact that this research basically had two outcomes - either subjects did or didn't move from helplessness - is even more of an argument that this treatment of animals should never ever have been conducted. It is human arrogance and hierarchy and patriarchy that conceives of and wraps up with pseudo-intelligence the idea that sentient creatures are our subjects for torture. There is no excuse - never has been and never will be. Also the fact that he says he's a dog lover *but* did experiments on rats proves the point. All animals are sentient and just because a creature is smaller or isn't domesticated doesn't mean it is less valuable. The human race as a whole has so far to go in waking up...give me animals over humans any day. Wake up people, wake up!
While I get the change of Dr. Seligman's view on 'learned helplessness' to 'learned hopefulness,' it seems more like the proverbial 'same ol' girl but in a different dress!' He is simply repackaging his product to market it as positive instead of psychopathology. Learned helplessness is a very real phenomenon in which one surrenders their free will. I can also see where learned hopefulness is a real phenomenon for those who utilize their free will in order to recover themselves from a negative episode or experience. It is the difference between being a chronic pessimist vs being an intentional optimist. 🤷🏻♂️
THIS is the guy you admire so much Scott?? I'm really disappointed. His theory was based on him torturing dogs!!! Many of the dogs in his lab became seriously ill or died after the TORTURE he put them through. This makes me SICK. I looked up more about him and read that his work was inspired by Pavlov...no surprise there! I can't listen. And now that I know how "positive psychology" was founded I want nothing to do with it ever!
Thank you for making this known. It’s important people realize this. I would also caution against throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water unnecessarily. You may never trust “positive psychology” or Marty Seligman again, but I think there may important personal insights to gained from these ideas in spite of the ghastliness of the experiment. 🙏
Seligman states, from 400 to 1400 was a period of great stagnation in the West, then he sort attributes this to Religious Christian beliefs to this stagnation. Seligman is a Psychologist, and he should stick to that (not religious history). He seems to be taking the popular and simplistic view that Religion, maybe Catholicism, stands apart and against from progress and science. Yawn, here we go again. This is a tired by now, narrative first from the old Atheists, and also now repeated by the new Atheists the last 20 years, about Scientism, on how they all had to break free from religious constraints. That might make for good Hollywood movies, but has little to do with actual historical fact. The Mathematics and Science that blossomed during the 1500's / 1600's reformation period, came through and from- the Catholic University system in Europe. These scientific advancements were supported by Catholics, not opposed by them - it's all in recorded history for the thoughtful person to read about. There were Catholic scientists all over the place innovating during this enlightenment period, the time was ripe, economies aligned, so it happened. By the way, even on thru relatively recent times, did you know the close friend and collogue of Albert Einstein, was the one who developed and authored the "Big Bang" Theory of the creation of the Universe? This Scientist's name was Georges LeMaitre, who was a Astrophysicist and a Catholic Priest. Yep - the Scientific theory of the creation of the Universe, accepted and taught today by scientists around the world, was developed, organized and presented to the Scientific community early in the last century - by a Catholic Priest....
At 65. I am set to start all over with positive Phychology. Digging into my character strengths.
What a great podcast~ This is what was so needed during the first wave of the pandemic, and NOW still!
I love the "teaching moment" of his then five years old daughter 💚
Marty is a great storyteller, and it is a pleasure to hear him talk
"In 1967, Martin Seligman, one of the founders of Positive Psychology and his research group carried out a fascinating, if somewhat morally dubious experiment in his quest to understand the origins of depression. In this experiment, three groups of dogs were confined in harnesses. The dogs in group 1 were simply placed in their harnesses then released after a period of time, but the dogs in groups 2 and 3 did not have it so easy. Instead they were subjected to electric shocks that could only be stopped by pulling a lever. The difference was that the the dogs in group 2 had access to the lever, whereas the dogs in group 3 did not. Instead, the dogs in group 3 would only receive relief from the shocks when their pair in group 2 pressed the lever, with the result that they experienced the shocks as random events." wonder what happened to those dogs he used for his experiments.. because martin is certainly reaping the benefits of what he did to them and look at all the support he gets for having done this research, what a wonderful world.>:c
@@Ari_Madrid I'm not entirely sure what your purpose is for pointing out two points of Marty's life, "reaping the benefits" in the present and his research on learned helplessness half a century ago without exploring the journey in between he took to "reap the benefits." Marty has expressed much regret for his research on learned helplessness on "I'm a dog lover very difficult experiments to do. I found myself in the laboratory at age 21 that was doing shock experiments with dogs and as soon as I could get out if it I stopped doing experiments with dogs." He has and has had pet dogs himself, and there's no doubt in my mind that those experiments haunted Marty and that Marty did his best to care for those experimental dogs as he could. Also, he has expressed discontent with how the general media and mass public took to understand his research on learned helplessness. He expressed discontent because not only is his learned helplessness theory misguided and incomplete, but how people interpreted his learned helplessness theory is more times than not inaccurate in itself. That regret and discontent for doing this research is an important factor that lead to him heavily focusing on the positive side of psychology.
It has been a tumultuous journey for him to get to where he is now, a journey far from rainbows and sunshines, including repairing rebuilding and redefining his relationships with his wife and daughter. Psychology originally only talked about the dark side of humans, and it was thanks to the the gall of Marty to face the systemic powers that would have otherwise kept Psychology still only focused on half of who people are. Plus, the whole idea of reaping the benefits is weird to me because researchers aren't exactly swimming in money unless they're being supported by things like Big Pharma. Research is a thankless job and the only people that ever really get to know about the research is other researchers.
I hear you that what the dogs experienced is very horrific. But the idea of him reaping benefits from the support in his research on traumatizing dogs is halfway from the reality of what Marty's journey was really like. Only the positive half, and not the negative half about the cognitive dissonance with being both a dog lover and someone indoctrinated by the research world to focus on the dark, his unfathomable grind to challenge the status quo in the psychology research world, and the strain his efforts to make positive change in the world put on his relationships with his family.
This was so interesting and insightful. I liked how Dr Seligman clarified that he was not influenced by humanistic theory. Many a time in the study of postmodern psychology theories, we are taught or rather, it is implied that positive psychology grew from humanistic theory. So it was good to hear the facts facts from the horse's mouth. Brilliant interview!
It's not about free will, it's about a belief in self-efficacy
God was like "Quit hurting animals to answer questions about human psychology! That's annoying"
Great conversation Dr. Kaufman. Thank you🙏🏼
Thanks for listening!
The Psychology Podcast 😊love your character!
@@ThePsychologyPodcast you clearly are ignoring the comments of his reported dog abuse/neglect done for his studies. why are you ignoring the comments? this is disgusting, the only videos done on this guy should include his victims and what he's done to them. I hope you never experience anything near the oppression and pain those dogs had to go thru. i know you dont say anything is funny but i cant help be reminded of the quote, everything is funny until it happens to you.
@@Ari_Madrid Everyone mostly has done the same amount of bad and good. Just in this case Marty is a public figure. He is a person, and like any other person has made mistakes. What makes him different is when most people are stuck in their ways, Marty has made incredible strides to change who he is. Please do not judge who Marty is solely based on what he did half a century ago. Who he is today is far from who he used to be.
@@AznDudeIsOn thank you for remaining objective and positive. I believe a person cannot learn if they are stuck on bias thoughts (unlike the Ari Madrid guy) lol
x1.25 speed was better for me
Why are the interviewer's questions disconnected to what Martin says?
Were they pre-written?
Especially when Martin was talking about learned optimism, and then the question was, "Was it hard working with dogs"
Great conversation
Thank you Dr. Scott.
I was hoping to hear if he came up with any ways to rehabilitate the dogs once tortured to learned helplessness.
Really interesting. Loved hearing MS's thoughts about the importance of "time on task." 44:44
he was certainly on task when he was abusing dogs. "In 1967, Martin Seligman, one of the founders of Positive Psychology and his research group carried out a fascinating, if somewhat morally dubious experiment in his quest to understand the origins of depression. In this experiment, three groups of dogs were confined in harnesses. The dogs in group 1 were simply placed in their harnesses then released after a period of time, but the dogs in groups 2 and 3 did not have it so easy. Instead they were subjected to electric shocks that could only be stopped by pulling a lever. The difference was that the the dogs in group 2 had access to the lever, whereas the dogs in group 3 did not. Instead, the dogs in group 3 would only receive relief from the shocks when their pair in group 2 pressed the lever, with the result that they experienced the shocks as random events."
I would love to have a transcript of this! Can I get one? I'd gladly pay for it!
"In 1967, Martin Seligman, one of the founders of Positive Psychology and his research group carried out a fascinating, if somewhat morally dubious experiment in his quest to understand the origins of depression. In this experiment, three groups of dogs were confined in harnesses. The dogs in group 1 were simply placed in their harnesses then released after a period of time, but the dogs in groups 2 and 3 did not have it so easy. Instead they were subjected to electric shocks that could only be stopped by pulling a lever. The difference was that the the dogs in group 2 had access to the lever, whereas the dogs in group 3 did not. Instead, the dogs in group 3 would only receive relief from the shocks when their pair in group 2 pressed the lever, with the result that they experienced the shocks as random events."
Further to mine and others' comments about the horrific abuse of sentient beings to reach, quite frankly, obvious conclusions, this Is what a true scientist should believe...in the words of Albert Einstein: “A human being is a part of the whole, called by us Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.”
~ Albert Einstein
thats why hope comes from hearing the Word of God, as the Bible says
can somebody explain what did he mean by agency
Agency is our ability to choose.
🖤
This is what Seligman CHOSE to do to over 150 dogs in his own words:
"When an experimentally naive dog receives escape-avoidance training in a shuttle box, the following behavior typically occurs: at the onset of the first traumatic electric shock, the dog runs frantically about, defecating, urinating and howling, until it accidentally scrambles over the barrier and so escapes the shock. On the next trial, the dog, running and howling, crosses the barrier more quickly than on the preceding trial. This pattern continues until the dog learns to avoid shock altogether. Overmier and Seligman (1967) and Seligman and Maier (1967) found a striking difference between this pattern of behavior and that exhibited by dogs first given inescapable electric shocks in a Pavlovian hammock. Such a dog’s first reactions to shock in the shuttle box are much the same as those of a naive dog. In dramatic contrast to a naive dog, however, a typical dog which has experienced uncontrollable shocks before avoidance training soon stops running and howling and sits or lies, quietly whining, until shock terminates. The dog does not cross the barrier and escape from shock. Rather, it seems to give up and passively accepts the shock. On succeeding trials, the dog continues to fail to make escape movements and takes as much shock as the experimenter chooses to give. (Seligman, M.E. “Depression and Learned Helplessness.” In (R.J Friedmand and M.M. Katz Eds.) The Psychology of Depression: Contemporary Theory and Research. Washington D.C.: V.H. Winston and Sons, 1974."
It's not rocket science that any animal and that includes humans is pain adverse. The fact that this research basically had two outcomes - either subjects did or didn't move from helplessness - is even more of an argument that this treatment of animals should never ever have been conducted. It is human arrogance and hierarchy and patriarchy that conceives of and wraps up with pseudo-intelligence the idea that sentient creatures are our subjects for torture. There is no excuse - never has been and never will be. Also the fact that he says he's a dog lover *but* did experiments on rats proves the point. All animals are sentient and just because a creature is smaller or isn't domesticated doesn't mean it is less valuable. The human race as a whole has so far to go in waking up...give me animals over humans any day. Wake up people, wake up!
While I get the change of Dr. Seligman's view on 'learned helplessness' to 'learned hopefulness,' it seems more like the proverbial 'same ol' girl but in a different dress!' He is simply repackaging his product to market it as positive instead of psychopathology. Learned helplessness is a very real phenomenon in which one surrenders their free will. I can also see where learned hopefulness is a real phenomenon for those who utilize their free will in order to recover themselves from a negative episode or experience. It is the difference between being a chronic pessimist vs being an intentional optimist. 🤷🏻♂️
Jesus Christ loves you
Disappointed in your choice of sponsors
I don't care what you had for lunch. Tell us about the book, not how you wrote it.
THIS is the guy you admire so much Scott?? I'm really disappointed. His theory was based on him torturing dogs!!! Many of the dogs in his lab became seriously ill or died after the TORTURE he put them through. This makes me SICK. I looked up more about him and read that his work was inspired by Pavlov...no surprise there! I can't listen. And now that I know how "positive psychology" was founded I want nothing to do with it ever!
You are absolutely right.
Thanks you for showing me his dirty reality now naive I was thinking he is good human being .f..k him
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 too right. See my comment above.
Thank you for making this known. It’s important people realize this.
I would also caution against throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water unnecessarily. You may never trust “positive psychology” or Marty Seligman again, but I think there may important personal insights to gained from these ideas in spite of the ghastliness of the experiment. 🙏
Seligman states, from 400 to 1400 was a period of great stagnation in the West, then he sort attributes this to Religious Christian beliefs to this stagnation. Seligman is a Psychologist, and he should stick to that (not religious history). He seems to be taking the popular and simplistic view that Religion, maybe Catholicism, stands apart and against from progress and science. Yawn, here we go again. This is a tired by now, narrative first from the old Atheists, and also now repeated by the new Atheists the last 20 years, about Scientism, on how they all had to break free from religious constraints. That might make for good Hollywood movies, but has little to do with actual historical fact. The Mathematics and Science that blossomed during the 1500's / 1600's reformation period, came through and from- the Catholic University system in Europe. These scientific advancements were supported by Catholics, not opposed by them - it's all in recorded history for the thoughtful person to read about. There were Catholic scientists all over the place innovating during this enlightenment period, the time was ripe, economies aligned, so it happened. By the way, even on thru relatively recent times, did you know the close friend and collogue of Albert Einstein, was the one who developed and authored the "Big Bang" Theory of the creation of the Universe? This Scientist's name was Georges LeMaitre, who was a Astrophysicist and a Catholic Priest. Yep - the Scientific theory of the creation of the Universe, accepted and taught today by scientists around the world, was developed, organized and presented to the Scientific community early in the last century - by a Catholic Priest....