Apparently, Hunter drove back home that night, dropped into bed in the wee small hours and was awakened by his daughter holding the next day's newspaper and asking "Daddy is it true you lost us the World Cup?"
People didn't realise how good Poland were, and they were even better by the time the 1974 World Cup came around. England only scored three goals in their four qualifying games, so it was obvious where their failings lay.
Poland were a very good side who went on to finish 3rd at the tournament proper. England battered them at Wembley but couldn’t find the net. Ok qualifying as a whole wasn’t vintage England (if such a thing exists) but this game merited a better result.
Poland were a VERY good side...one of THE star performers of that world cup and loaded with technically gifted players. I reckon they were very unlucky in the end...a downpour before effectively their semi-final v West Germany turned the pitch into a farmer's field and totally hampered their kinetic movement that had been so successful up til then (scoring heavily). They then beat Brazil in the 3rd/4th play-off...no mean feat (despite Brazil being a shadow of the 1970 team). For me, it was English arrogance that cost them throughout the 70s. This wasn't a blip, failing to qualify for the '76 Euros and '78 World Cup. Other than dishing out a 5-1 drubbing of Scotland in '75, Scotland generally had the measure of England during this period. Brian Clough (who I regard as truly great manager in history) spoke some dreadful nonsense about Poland...so demeaning, arrogant and dismissive....not a great look. His words must have been such a motivation for Poland to do them over.
@@starmersbarber not entirely sure Clough's half time comments would have filtered through to the Poland team before the second half kicked off. Maybe, what do I know? Anyhow right on board with the rest. Deyna and Lato were proper class. Gorgon was a decent centre half too. Norman Hunter took an unfair amount of stick I reckon - Shilton didn’t cover himself with glory for the goal either.
I was under the impression that Clough had been playing down Poland's chances quite a bit before the game in London (I'm thinkng of a documentary I watched fairly recently from the Polish point of view)...but maybe I'm mistaken. I'm sure that Clough was convinced that England would come out on top in Poland. Saying all that, I reckon he should have become England manager.
@@starmersbarber you’re probably right about Clough and 9 year old me wasn’t paying too much attention. The 'clown' comment was made at half time, I believe.
@@f0urstr1ng We knew Poland were good after the game but we didn't know how good until the World Cup. Also, they did it without the long term injured Lubanski, one of the best strikers in the world.
@@stevencruz715, Bo'ness Academy in Bo'ness, a town in Central Scotland! It's about 20 miles outside Edinburgh! The more I think about it, I can't remember if it was his grandad or his uncle but he was definitely related to him in some way! His name was William Tomachewski, and the weird thing was that he had the same birthday as me, which is why I always remember him!!
To this day, Peter Shilton STILL has the unjustified arrogance to call this Poland goal "the only mistake of his England career". He was a great goalkeeper in his prime, but not nearly as good as he and the English media/fan-base made him out to be. Gordon Banks was better before him, and Ray Clemence was as good as his contemporary. N.I. had Pat Jennings, Wales had Neville Southall, West Germany had Sepp Maier, the Soviet Union had Lev Yashin then Renat Dasayev, and Italy had Dino Zoff. "World's best goalkeeper for 20 years? .... PLEASE. The biggest mistake of his England career, was sticking around for an extra 10 years at the end. If he'd retired after lifting the European Cup for the 2nd time with Forest, I wouldn't remember him today for divorce, drunk driving, gambling addiction and being an arthritic pylon in England's otherwise very good 1990 team. Sometimes...... less is more.
@myroseaccount he was so arrogant..He still gives Cameroon zero credit for there performance against England in 90 ...Chris waddle said it best ." Some fucking bye that was"
I'm with you on that one Jim, Shilton was always prone to mistakes, look at the 3rd and 4th place play off against Italy, Shilton just left it in front of him, Roberto Baggio went up behind him and just slotted it into the net
Totaly agree. Shilton cost us against poland. We battered the poles but their clown keeper played a blinder. Shilton was a great keeper but a big of a primadonna. Like u say, Banks, Jennings, Southall were arguably better than shilton.
If we thought England were shite in the70's just wait till the 90's 🤣🤣 We didn't deserve to go to '74 and would have been annihilated by teams like Holland and Germany. Similarly in '94 we would have been embarrassed by Brazil or Italy (probably even Eire). When people like Carlton Palmer become 'Important players' for your team, start getting worried 😂😂😂😂
@@colinbradley9551 I Guess they'll have to amend my birth certificate then. If being born in Ashford, Middlesex in 1978 to two English parents doesn't make you English, I can ask for all my tax money back 🤣🤣 I don't think you'd need a crystal ball to guess what would happen when Andy Sinton and Carlton Palmer went up against Romario and Baggio 😂😂😂😂
It felt (still feels like) the Devil demanded a high price for giving England that Geoff Hurst goal in the '66 final!! Failure for at least 60 years......The 2-3 V W Germany in '70 was when and where the rot set in. We were stuck in 1966 with the whole world moving ahead of us...
Failure to beat Wales at home was the true costly result. Like you said, we only had ourselves to blame and a woeful record in front of goal which is staggering when Eng had the likes of Keegan (who seemed to fall out of favour with Ramsey after having a few games) and Clarke up front.
@peterwoodhouse4314 yeah Clarke, Chivers and Peters, both spurs players had shite games but Ramsey wouldn't drop spurs players, always remember John Radford saying when Ramsey had to pick him for England squad, all Alf spoke to him about a foul he made against spurs defender, Kevin Hector should have been on earlier for Peters or Chivers.
I was wondering about that Gordon Banks accident, actually - apologies for not doing more research into that. I'm also surprised that Ramsay left Keegan on the bench.
@@danielevensen84 Kevin Hector should have been put on earlier for Chivers instead of the last 5 minutes. In truth, as Peter Osgood said, Alf should have started rebuilding straight after Mexico. Moore, Lee, Hurst were kept on far too long. Ramsey should probably have been replaced after Mexico and someone like Malcolm Allison, who was more conversant with modern coaching, drafted in.
Alf Ramsay should not have been in control of England at this time. Despite his World Cup win, he was unable to adapt to changing football as was evidenced in the 1970 quarter final when he buggered up the sub's. Teams had pretty much worked England out, that was, defend like mad and catch them on the break. A lot of teams still do. Quite simply it England fell behind and took a decade to catch up.
A Spaniard here. IMO England got screwed by the qualies draw. For the 74 WC, they were paired with Poland who got 3rd, and could have won it all. In 78 was Italy, who got 4th. Even in the 76 European, they faced the Czechs, who later become champions. Not all is just bad luck, but it did play a key role.
@@joekavanagh7171 @guillermobarrio55 "To be the best, you have to beat the best." I place zero importance on easy/difficult draws. For 2 reasons: 1. The goal should never be to qualify for the tournament proper. It should be to win it outright. The winning mentality should be that the qualification campaign and the final tournament are part of the same journey. If you eliminate a dangerous opponent in your qualifying group, then they pose no problem for you in the Quarter-Final, in the Semi-Final.... No team lifts that trophy without besting top-tier opposition, so it doesn't matter how early/late you face them. and 2. Even if I concede to you @guillermobarrio55 that there are more and less difficult qualifying groups, the fact remains that the team which qualifies is seldom the same team that shows up for the month-long Finals, so hindsight is 20/20. Argentina did not win on home soil in '78 because of an easy qualifying group (obviously), and no one fancied Italy and Paulo Rossi prior to '82 in Spain. Poland and Holland were consistently in the conversation for over a decade - without ever lifting a major trophy. Respectfully, in my opinion, in qualifying you play the team that is put in front of you. I've never heard a World Cup Champion complain about how difficult their qualifying group was.
Yes, people tend to forget how much harder it was to qualify for WC in those days as I think only group winners got through and there was none or very little seeding. England were a tad unlucky to have been drawn with Poland in 74 qualifying and Italy in 78 qualifying. Poland developed into a formidable side and a deserved 3rd place at Germany74. Italy were also a very useful side who beat Argentina on way to a creditable 4th place at Argentina78.
People often point to the 1970s as a justification for the Premier League importing foreign players en masse. The argument goes "there were no foreign players in the 1970s yet England were still crap, therefore we need to import players to raise standards". However England were not crap, just a victim of circumstance. The World Cup finals in 1974 and 1978 were only 16 team tournaments. Only one team could progress from England's qualifying group. In 74 and 78 England narrowly lost out to Poland and Italy respectively, both of whom reached the semi finals in the tournament proper.
@@thereunionparty Yes, sensible comments there 👍 I think the younger generation don't realise how much WC qualifying has changed nowadays. It is now very, very rare for a 'top' nation not to qualify for a WC finals. Italy in 2018 and 2022 is about only example I can think of in past 30 years.
I did not understand why England neither did qualify for the Euros 72 and 76 nor for the WCs 74 and 78. English clubs dominated Europe in the 70ies. 1970: Arsenal wins the Inter Cities Fair Cup and ManCity the Cup Winners Cup. 1971: Leeds wins the Inter Cities Fair Cup and Chelsea the Cup Winners Cup. 1972: Tottenham wins the UEFA-Cup. 1973: Liverpool wins the UEFA-Cup. 1976: Liverpool wins the UEFA-Cup. 1977: Liverpool wins the European Cup. 1978: Liverpool wins the European Cup. 1979: Nottingham wins the European Cup. ......and England had such formidable players like Bell, Lee, Brooking, Keegan, Bowles, Francis...just to name a few.
The Euros are actually a little bit deceptive. The actual "tournament" was just the final 4 teams. England made it to the round of 8 in 1972, where it lost to West Germany in a two legged match. But, yeah, it's still a total bizarre thing that England was so unsuccessful in World Cup qualification during those years. I'm still trying to figure out why Kevin Keegan wasn't starting against Poland in this match...
22 дні тому+3
Sir Alf should have stepped down after the 1970 World Cup.
Oh do I remember this - I can even remember the commentary. I'd just turned 12. There was hardly ever any live football on TV so this was a BIG occasion. Everyone I knew watched the game - and the earlier games too. I was allowed to stay up late to watch the Wednesday evening game. This team was full of everyone's heroes, but they had feet of clay. But you are right - England's downfall was the game in Poland, and Moore's error, which was much more glaring than Hunter's at Wembley. And also the draw with Wales, which was a shambles. But Poland were not that bad - they went on to finish 3rd in the World Cup, if I remember right?
Not starting Booby Moore was the right decision. The damage was done in the two games against Wales and the overly defensive approach to the away game to Poland.
If they did not have to play west Germany on a pitch that was all but unplayable given their style of play and that was definitely advantage West Germany they might have won the 1974 World Cup. Even then it was close.
@@patrickporter1864 Agree. Super team and Lato, that bloke was a superstar. Poland never go the media they deserved, compared with the Dutch and The Germans.
It's interesting that the scapegoat moved from Moore in the first Poland game to Hunter in the second. This culture of looking to blame individuals was their true downfall. Shilton seriously screwed up for that Poland goal at Wembley, but few mention that. This was surely a sign that the English system was falling behind so many others...West Germany, Holland, Czechoslovakia, Italy, Poland to name a few) stepping beyond England from a technical point of view. Scotland even had mostly the measure of England during this period!! It's interesting that many English club teams had European success during this 70s period, but the national team were relatively nowhere. It feels that they kept the outmoded Alf Ramsay on for far too long.
@@normanby100 Aye fair point. I'm wondering if the only genuine world class English player during that time was Keegan...but I do think Clemence and Shilton were both outstanding.
@@normanby100 Yes, look at the two best club sides of that period, Leeds (tons of Scots plus Giles etc); and Liverpool (less so but still had Welshman Toshack while Scots duo Yeats & St John were key members of Shankly's first great side), and who later in the 70s recruited Hansen, Souness & Dalglish. Say no more.
I remember this very well. I was 10 years old at the time. At that stage, English arrogance and sense of entitlement were still at their absolute height….and not only in regard to football! Indeed, this has only very marginally diminished ever since. They had put being knocked out of the 1970 Mexico World Cup, at the hands of West Germany (of all people!), down to some “terrible misfortune” and the fact that “it was too hot”. As if it wasn’t for everybody else or condescendingly that players from ‘some countries’ had an unfair advantage because “they were used to it”. They simply assumed that they would qualify for the 1974 tournament and that once there, they would restore “the normal order of the World”, where the Englishman is pre-eminent in all matters, including but not exclusively limited to….Football! They didn’t even qualify. That was because they WEREN’T GOOD ENOUGH! 😂 We have to also remember that at this stage, the Cold War was still fulling in swing. Britons still (naively) saw themselves as a Global Superpower. Poland was regarded as an impoverished, backward, Eastern Bloc Communist country and its football prowess as nothing to be taken too seriously by the mighty England! Germans (I’m half-German by birth and a German citizen even though I was growing up in London at the time) and Scotsmen have never laughed so much! 🤣 🏴🇩🇪
I remember being allowed to watch the first half of the England v Poland match (then I had to go to bed at half-time, with it being a school night). I was only 7 years old at the time. I wouldn't believe that England had all those chances but couldn't score for love nor money. I found out the result the next morning when I was getting ready for school and watched the highlights on Football Focus the following Saturday.
I was there To be Fair England were all over Poland. They parked the Bus - their goalkeeper brought off some crazy saves and unbelievable Poland went through. They deserved to finish 3rd in World Cup 74. Sir Alf had to resign and sadly it's taken over 50 years for us to be a Great side again
Definitely worth mentioning that Scotland beat Czechoslovakia at Hampden on that same night to qualify for Germany 74, a game I was at, the last time over 110,000 were allowed in Hampden.
England were crap in the 1970s .....a team full of good players that could not win a carrott.....I remember this game the school I went to had prize night on this day but it was changed to the afternoon so that we could all watch the game on t.v .....England could have played all night and still not scored ......Poland went on to finish 3rd in the World Cup tournament in Germany in 1974
Looking at the way the ref pointed when disallowing the goal, I think he was calling Martin Peters for climbing. It does look as though he has his hands pinning the Polish lad to the floor.
And following this, Poland went on and played beautifully at World Cup 74 to take the third place iirc 😊 Also, there was this guy called Lato in Poland squad, he became the top scorer, I think 🤔 God I’m getting old.
Well summed up. Being English I thought I knew a lot more about the England Vs Poland match than I actually did. Poland both deserved to go through and draw and England deserved to lose not draw. The rugby tackle on the Polish forward should have resulted in a sending off. Period. England's style of play would haunt them for another two decades; run down the wing and deliver a cross. Very little craft. This match should have been a wake up call. If you were to look at old 'Big Match' or Match of the Day programmes will see the old First Division of England was very poor in terms of quality during this period. A few years after, with Liverpool dominant in Europe, the quality of England's play was just as shocking. Technically, England were always behind other teams as situation that would only change this century.
Such rugby tackles were common back then, and even applauded. The rule mandating a sending off in such situations didn't come before late 80s early 90s. Remember Peter Schmeichel's tackle on Battiston in 1982, that didn't even produce a foul because the referee played advantage for France to see if it'll end up in a goal scored.
@@einseitig3391 Absolutely! I remember the highlight, I was seven years old. I remember both keepers, I just confused the names there. Thanks for the correction.
Our then Swedish TV Saturdays' Tipsextra, which gave us live broadcast ENG football - full matches, at least when pitches weren't just complete dirt piles and matches called off, when you the Brits hadn't - led to the now totally inconceivable folly that I cried at these scenes. But in the end Jan Tomaszewski sent us out as well - you need to practise pronouncing that name though, mate 🤣🤣🤣. Not that you lot care sh*t, but for your information I'm telling you we then ended ~5th in Munich depending on how to assess. Called Revival of SWE football following a bleak decade after runner-up in Stockholm '58.
In this game Poland got their self confidence. The sesult of that self confidence you may watch during their performance during the world cup in Germany. The games against Argentina , Italy , Germany and Brazil
England didn't qualify to WC 1974 but four years later didn't qualify to Argentina'78. So seems like that 70s was like a collapse of English football. There is interesting comment in interview in this video : ua-cam.com/video/Fqm4QzDhRSY/v-deo.html :) . In Poland this match is a legend. First time I could watch full match replay was in mid of 80s - I remember how big disappointment it was, England completely dominated. Hard to believe that Poland in next in WC'74 finished on 3rd place. If you are interested : there is few comments from former England players ua-cam.com/video/gwW9mCZ1SF4/v-deo.html and another one video from Polish TV , 30 anniversary of this match : ua-cam.com/video/HQMffC2CJXw/v-deo.html
I was there. We didn’t boo after the whistle, we were far too dismayed to do that. 1973 definitely marked the end of an era for English football. In 1970 we had run up against a supercharged Brazil (and much more), and there was a feeling that we’d been very unlucky. But as you say, we should never have been in this situation at Wembley (needling the win), and we were just not good enough in qualification. Poland went on to come third in the 74 WC I recall. England have never won a major trophy since. Oh yes, and Chas and Dave referenced the game in ‘Gertcha’. 🏴
it's always england disgrace isn't it?year after year!england 0-9 malta is no disgrace!malta employed the sweeper system and kept catching england on the break!0-9! that's no disgrace that lads!
Couldn't see it at the time but know i look back on it the reason England under performed through the 70s is because they simply weren't good enough sure yes we could turn on a performance now and then against inferior teams but at the top level our style of football was primitive within the extreme tactics were at least 20 years out of date sounds a bit like nowadays 😯
I was 14 at the time and I cried like a baby, that was the last time, but still waiting for another tournament win. I was fortunate to witness the 1966 World Cup win so I can take that to my grave but I won’t cry any more it’s only a game!
That's football! The ball is round...anything can happen. But Poland were lucky to salvage a draw...as I remember watching it live...the memories of so many missed chances...26?...& only a penalty put away. The Polish goal wasn't just Hunter's fault. Hughes left the scorer in space & Shilton ought to have dealt with a routine shot...as he usually did. Haunted still at such a bad bounce of the ball@Wembley.
Since the defeat to Germany in the 1970world cup tournament England did recover for 30 years not good enough then or now .they just ain’t got the killer instinct to get them over the line even when we won it in 66 the were not the best team
Apparently, Hunter drove back home that night, dropped into bed in the wee small hours and was awakened by his daughter holding the next day's newspaper and asking "Daddy is it true you lost us the World Cup?"
People didn't realise how good Poland were, and they were even better by the time the 1974 World Cup came around. England only scored three goals in their four qualifying games, so it was obvious where their failings lay.
also Poland`s star player Lubanski was out injured for the 74 world cup, he picked up a bad injury against England in Chorzow
@@melprice8961 Lubanski was brilliant. Poland might have even won the World Cup if he had been there in 1974.
They should have never allowed them to play that match against West Germany on that pitch.
Poland were a very good side who went on to finish 3rd at the tournament proper. England battered them at Wembley but couldn’t find the net. Ok qualifying as a whole wasn’t vintage England (if such a thing exists) but this game merited a better result.
Poland were a VERY good side...one of THE star performers of that world cup and loaded with technically gifted players. I reckon they were very unlucky in the end...a downpour before effectively their semi-final v West Germany turned the pitch into a farmer's field and totally hampered their kinetic movement that had been so successful up til then (scoring heavily). They then beat Brazil in the 3rd/4th play-off...no mean feat (despite Brazil being a shadow of the 1970 team). For me, it was English arrogance that cost them throughout the 70s. This wasn't a blip, failing to qualify for the '76 Euros and '78 World Cup. Other than dishing out a 5-1 drubbing of Scotland in '75, Scotland generally had the measure of England during this period. Brian Clough (who I regard as truly great manager in history) spoke some dreadful nonsense about Poland...so demeaning, arrogant and dismissive....not a great look. His words must have been such a motivation for Poland to do them over.
@@starmersbarber not entirely sure Clough's half time comments would have filtered through to the Poland team before the second half kicked off. Maybe, what do I know? Anyhow right on board with the rest. Deyna and Lato were proper class. Gorgon was a decent centre half too. Norman Hunter took an unfair amount of stick I reckon - Shilton didn’t cover himself with glory for the goal either.
I was under the impression that Clough had been playing down Poland's chances quite a bit before the game in London (I'm thinkng of a documentary I watched fairly recently from the Polish point of view)...but maybe I'm mistaken. I'm sure that Clough was convinced that England would come out on top in Poland. Saying all that, I reckon he should have become England manager.
@@starmersbarber you’re probably right about Clough and 9 year old me wasn’t paying too much attention. The 'clown' comment was made at half time, I believe.
@@f0urstr1ng We knew Poland were good after the game but we didn't know how good until the World Cup. Also, they did it without the long term injured Lubanski, one of the best strikers in the world.
Fun fact: I went to high school with the Poland goalkeeper Tomachewski's grandson, William in the late 80s/early 90s!!
Where
@@stevencruz715, Bo'ness Academy in Bo'ness, a town in Central Scotland! It's about 20 miles outside Edinburgh! The more I think about it, I can't remember if it was his grandad or his uncle but he was definitely related to him in some way! His name was William Tomachewski, and the weird thing was that he had the same birthday as me, which is why I always remember him!!
@@Lord_Hillcrest02, dude, it was over 30 years ago, although I'm 90% sure it was his grandad!
Was he a clown too ?
@@jimking8391yap, just like your dad 👍
I never thought I'd see a yank talking about a time in English football most people would rather forget.
Seriously doubt he's a Yank. I'd say Scandinavia
To this day, Peter Shilton STILL has the unjustified arrogance to call this Poland goal "the only mistake of his England career". He was a great goalkeeper in his prime, but not nearly as good as he and the English media/fan-base made him out to be. Gordon Banks was better before him, and Ray Clemence was as good as his contemporary. N.I. had Pat Jennings, Wales had Neville Southall, West Germany had Sepp Maier, the Soviet Union had Lev Yashin then Renat Dasayev, and Italy had Dino Zoff. "World's best goalkeeper for 20 years? .... PLEASE. The biggest mistake of his England career, was sticking around for an extra 10 years at the end. If he'd retired after lifting the European Cup for the 2nd time with Forest, I wouldn't remember him today for divorce, drunk driving, gambling addiction and being an arthritic pylon in England's otherwise very good 1990 team. Sometimes...... less is more.
Shilton was overrated and played far too long for England.
@myroseaccount he was so arrogant..He still gives Cameroon zero credit for there performance against England in 90 ...Chris waddle said it best ." Some fucking bye that was"
I'm with you on that one Jim, Shilton was always prone to mistakes, look at the 3rd and 4th place play off against Italy, Shilton just left it in front of him, Roberto Baggio went up behind him and just slotted it into the net
Totaly agree. Shilton cost us against poland. We battered the poles but their clown keeper played a blinder. Shilton was a great keeper but a big of a primadonna. Like u say, Banks, Jennings, Southall were arguably better than shilton.
His only mistake got to be losing in a hand ball contest with Maradona, after all he's a goalie.
If we thought England were shite in the70's just wait till the 90's 🤣🤣 We didn't deserve to go to '74 and would have been annihilated by teams like Holland and Germany. Similarly in '94 we would have been embarrassed by Brazil or Italy (probably even Eire). When people like Carlton Palmer become 'Important players' for your team, start getting worried 😂😂😂😂
I'm with you on that one
Your not English, how can you talk about games that never happened! You should be on the television if you can see into the future
And dropping Chris Waddle
@@colinbradley9551 I Guess they'll have to amend my birth certificate then. If being born in Ashford, Middlesex in 1978 to two English parents doesn't make you English, I can ask for all my tax money back 🤣🤣 I don't think you'd need a crystal ball to guess what would happen when Andy Sinton and Carlton Palmer went up against Romario and Baggio 😂😂😂😂
It felt (still feels like) the Devil demanded a high price for giving England that Geoff Hurst goal in the '66 final!! Failure for at least 60 years......The 2-3 V W Germany in '70 was when and where the rot set in. We were stuck in 1966 with the whole world moving ahead of us...
I think it's called karma
Failure to beat Wales at home was the true costly result. Like you said, we only had ourselves to blame and a woeful record in front of goal which is staggering when Eng had the likes of Keegan (who seemed to fall out of favour with Ramsey after having a few games) and Clarke up front.
@peterwoodhouse4314 yeah Clarke, Chivers and Peters, both spurs players had shite games but Ramsey wouldn't drop spurs players, always remember John Radford saying when Ramsey had to pick him for England squad, all Alf spoke to him about a foul he made against spurs defender, Kevin Hector should have been on earlier for Peters or Chivers.
Alf Ramsay left Keegan on the bench,and if it had not been for Gordon Banks car accident the previous year ,he would have been in goal that night.
I was wondering about that Gordon Banks accident, actually - apologies for not doing more research into that.
I'm also surprised that Ramsay left Keegan on the bench.
@@danielevensen84 Kevin Hector should have been put on earlier for Chivers instead of the last 5 minutes. In truth, as Peter Osgood said, Alf should have started rebuilding straight after Mexico. Moore, Lee, Hurst were kept on far too long. Ramsey should probably have been replaced after Mexico and someone like Malcolm Allison, who was more conversant with modern coaching, drafted in.
Im not sure he would have stopped it, it wasnt a goalkeeping problem that night
Shilton was at fault for both goals away to Poland and at home at Wembley
@@myroseaccount not sure about the 2 Polish goals in Poland, Bobby Moore was at fault for the second goal
Alf Ramsay should not have been in control of England at this time. Despite his World Cup win, he was unable to adapt to changing football as was evidenced in the 1970 quarter final when he buggered up the sub's. Teams had pretty much worked England out, that was, defend like mad and catch them on the break. A lot of teams still do. Quite simply it England fell behind and took a decade to catch up.
A Spaniard here. IMO England got screwed by the qualies draw. For the 74 WC, they were paired with Poland who got 3rd, and could have won it all. In 78 was Italy, who got 4th. Even in the 76 European, they faced the Czechs, who later become champions. Not all is just bad luck, but it did play a key role.
What about all the easy draws they got in other competitions?
@@joekavanagh7171 @guillermobarrio55 "To be the best, you have to beat the best." I place zero importance on easy/difficult draws. For 2 reasons: 1. The goal should never be to qualify for the tournament proper. It should be to win it outright. The winning mentality should be that the qualification campaign and the final tournament are part of the same journey. If you eliminate a dangerous opponent in your qualifying group, then they pose no problem for you in the Quarter-Final, in the Semi-Final.... No team lifts that trophy without besting top-tier opposition, so it doesn't matter how early/late you face them. and 2. Even if I concede to you @guillermobarrio55 that there are more and less difficult qualifying groups, the fact remains that the team which qualifies is seldom the same team that shows up for the month-long Finals, so hindsight is 20/20. Argentina did not win on home soil in '78 because of an easy qualifying group (obviously), and no one fancied Italy and Paulo Rossi prior to '82 in Spain. Poland and Holland were consistently in the conversation for over a decade - without ever lifting a major trophy. Respectfully, in my opinion, in qualifying you play the team that is put in front of you. I've never heard a World Cup Champion complain about how difficult their qualifying group was.
Yes, people tend to forget how much harder it was to qualify for WC in those days as I think only group winners got through and there was none or very little seeding. England were a tad unlucky to have been drawn with Poland in 74 qualifying and Italy in 78 qualifying. Poland developed into a formidable side and a deserved 3rd place at Germany74. Italy were also a very useful side who beat Argentina on way to a creditable 4th place at Argentina78.
People often point to the 1970s as a justification for the Premier League importing foreign players en masse. The argument goes "there were no foreign players in the 1970s yet England were still crap, therefore we need to import players to raise standards". However England were not crap, just a victim of circumstance. The World Cup finals in 1974 and 1978 were only 16 team tournaments. Only one team could progress from England's qualifying group. In 74 and 78 England narrowly lost out to Poland and Italy respectively, both of whom reached the semi finals in the tournament proper.
@@thereunionparty Yes, sensible comments there 👍 I think the younger generation don't realise how much WC qualifying has changed nowadays. It is now very, very rare for a 'top' nation not to qualify for a WC finals. Italy in 2018 and 2022 is about only example I can think of in past 30 years.
I did not understand why England neither did qualify for the Euros 72 and 76 nor for the WCs 74 and 78. English clubs dominated Europe in the 70ies. 1970: Arsenal wins the Inter Cities Fair Cup and ManCity the Cup Winners Cup. 1971: Leeds wins the Inter Cities Fair Cup and Chelsea the Cup Winners Cup. 1972: Tottenham wins the UEFA-Cup. 1973: Liverpool wins the UEFA-Cup. 1976: Liverpool wins the UEFA-Cup. 1977: Liverpool wins the European Cup. 1978: Liverpool wins the European Cup. 1979: Nottingham wins the European Cup.
......and England had such formidable players like Bell, Lee, Brooking, Keegan, Bowles, Francis...just to name a few.
The Euros are actually a little bit deceptive. The actual "tournament" was just the final 4 teams. England made it to the round of 8 in 1972, where it lost to West Germany in a two legged match.
But, yeah, it's still a total bizarre thing that England was so unsuccessful in World Cup qualification during those years. I'm still trying to figure out why Kevin Keegan wasn't starting against Poland in this match...
Sir Alf should have stepped down after the 1970 World Cup.
Oh do I remember this - I can even remember the commentary. I'd just turned 12. There was hardly ever any live football on TV so this was a BIG occasion. Everyone I knew watched the game - and the earlier games too. I was allowed to stay up late to watch the Wednesday evening game. This team was full of everyone's heroes, but they had feet of clay.
But you are right - England's downfall was the game in Poland, and Moore's error, which was much more glaring than Hunter's at Wembley. And also the draw with Wales, which was a shambles.
But Poland were not that bad - they went on to finish 3rd in the World Cup, if I remember right?
cALLINg the polish team amateurish is ridiculous. The bronze winners of 1974 were just as good as West Germany and Holland
if i remember, Poland lost to West Germany in the semi final, they were unlucky
@@melprice8961 Should never have played the game on that soggy pitch. Poland was fast, and it definitely slowed them down.
I was at that Poland game at Wembley. The Polish keeper made saves with every part of his body. He didn’t know too much about many of them.
Thanks for this mate. Lived through it as a kid!
Poland reached the semis, so they were a very good team.
Not starting Booby Moore was the right decision.
The damage was done in the two games against Wales and the overly defensive approach to the away game to Poland.
Poland came 3rd in the 1974 World Cup but seem stuck with the 'The team that beat England' tag. That was a seriously good Polish team.
If they did not have to play west Germany on a pitch that was all but unplayable given their style of play and that was definitely advantage West Germany they might have won the 1974 World Cup. Even then it was close.
@@patrickporter1864 Agree. Super team and Lato, that bloke was a superstar. Poland never go the media they deserved, compared with the Dutch and The Germans.
@@stevekinlough588 Finished 3rd in 1982, as well.
@@edlawn5481 , indeed
Never actually saw this game
Didn’t realise Bobby Moore was dropped
And we have never recovered since…
🏴
It's interesting that the scapegoat moved from Moore in the first Poland game to Hunter in the second. This culture of looking to blame individuals was their true downfall. Shilton seriously screwed up for that Poland goal at Wembley, but few mention that. This was surely a sign that the English system was falling behind so many others...West Germany, Holland, Czechoslovakia, Italy, Poland to name a few) stepping beyond England from a technical point of view. Scotland even had mostly the measure of England during this period!! It's interesting that many English club teams had European success during this 70s period, but the national team were relatively nowhere. It feels that they kept the outmoded Alf Ramsay on for far too long.
@@starmersbarber English teams had Irish, Welsh and Scots in to augment their English players.
@@normanby100 Aye...fair point. Keegan became world class...but I'm not sure who was also genuinely in that bracket.
@@normanby100 Aye fair point. I'm wondering if the only genuine world class English player during that time was Keegan...but I do think Clemence and Shilton were both outstanding.
@@normanby100 Yes, look at the two best club sides of that period, Leeds (tons of Scots plus Giles etc); and Liverpool (less so but still had Welshman Toshack while Scots duo Yeats & St John were key members of Shankly's first great side), and who later in the 70s recruited Hansen, Souness & Dalglish. Say no more.
I remember this very well. I was 10 years old at the time.
At that stage, English arrogance and sense of entitlement were still at their absolute height….and not only in regard to football! Indeed, this has only very marginally diminished ever since.
They had put being knocked out of the 1970 Mexico World Cup, at the hands of West Germany (of all people!), down to some “terrible misfortune” and the fact that “it was too hot”. As if it wasn’t for everybody else or condescendingly that players from ‘some countries’ had an unfair advantage because “they were used to it”.
They simply assumed that they would qualify for the 1974 tournament and that once there, they would restore “the normal order of the World”, where the Englishman is pre-eminent in all matters, including but not exclusively limited to….Football!
They didn’t even qualify. That was because they WEREN’T GOOD ENOUGH! 😂
We have to also remember that at this stage, the Cold War was still fulling in swing. Britons still (naively) saw themselves as a Global Superpower. Poland was regarded as an impoverished, backward, Eastern Bloc Communist country and its football prowess as nothing to be taken too seriously by the mighty England!
Germans (I’m half-German by birth and a German citizen even though I was growing up in London at the time) and Scotsmen have never laughed so much! 🤣 🏴🇩🇪
I remember being allowed to watch the first half of the England v Poland match (then I had to go to bed at half-time, with it being a school night). I was only 7 years old at the time. I wouldn't believe that England had all those chances but couldn't score for love nor money. I found out the result the next morning when I was getting ready for school and watched the highlights on Football Focus the following Saturday.
At one point of desperation, the English commentator Hugh Johns shouted "..and Poland are deliberately trying to stop England from scoring"
jolly unsporting of them, the rotters.
I was 11,the first time i cried over a football match.
I was there To be Fair England were all over Poland. They parked the Bus - their goalkeeper brought off some crazy saves and unbelievable Poland went through. They deserved to finish 3rd in World Cup 74. Sir Alf had to resign and sadly it's taken over 50 years for us to be a Great side again
Watched on tv with my Da, remember it so well....
YOU GOT IT RIGHT
I remember this vividly as I was a teenager in 1973. Lots of press coverage and watched the full game on TV. Not live though. Not back then.
This game WAS live on tv (ITV). It was considered to be so important that the usual “no live tv” rule was set aside.
@@nigelgault6430 Sorry what I should have added was "in Singapore". We didn't have live TV till 1974. Apologies.
as a Scotsman i like this content
i am welsh so i dont think we should really be laughing...............we have nothing to laugh about
Ramsey probably should have fallen on his sword after the 0/0 v West Germany in 72
Definitely worth mentioning that Scotland beat Czechoslovakia at Hampden on that same night to qualify for Germany 74, a game I was at, the last time over 110,000 were allowed in Hampden.
Football is not a logical game. Football is won on the field. So no lucky business
Oh and Scotland qualified, and in '78 (England didn't)
Yea, that went well for Scotland didn't it?
When a clown knocked England out of the World Cup.
I think the performance of the Polish goalkeeper (however you choose to pronounce it) was a little overblown. Two great saves and a lot of flapping.
England were crap in the 1970s .....a team full of good players that could not win a carrott.....I remember this game the school I went to had prize night on this day but it was changed to the afternoon so that we could all watch the game on t.v .....England could have played all night and still not scored ......Poland went on to finish 3rd in the World Cup tournament in Germany in 1974
Looking at the way the ref pointed when disallowing the goal, I think he was calling Martin Peters for climbing. It does look as though he has his hands pinning the Polish lad to the floor.
And following this, Poland went on and played beautifully at World Cup 74 to take the third place iirc 😊
Also, there was this guy called Lato in Poland squad, he became the top scorer, I think 🤔 God I’m getting old.
CREDIT DUE TO POLAND ACTUALLY. POLAND THEN WENT ON TO FINISH 3RD IN THE FINALS.
Well summed up.
Being English I thought I knew a lot more about the England Vs Poland match than I actually did.
Poland both deserved to go through and draw and England deserved to lose not draw.
The rugby tackle on the Polish forward should have resulted in a sending off. Period.
England's style of play would haunt them for another two decades; run down the wing and deliver a cross.
Very little craft. This match should have been a wake up call.
If you were to look at old 'Big Match' or Match of the Day programmes will see the old First Division of England was very poor in terms of quality during this period.
A few years after, with Liverpool dominant in Europe, the quality of England's play was just as shocking.
Technically, England were always behind other teams as situation that would only change this century.
Such rugby tackles were common back then, and even applauded. The rule mandating a sending off in such situations didn't come before late 80s early 90s. Remember Peter Schmeichel's tackle on Battiston in 1982, that didn't even produce a foul because the referee played advantage for France to see if it'll end up in a goal scored.
@@ΠέτροςΟικονομάκος Quite. Though the German goal keeper was Harald Schumacher. Please amend, even Peter Schmeichel (Danish) is not that old.
@@einseitig3391 Absolutely! I remember the highlight, I was seven years old. I remember both keepers, I just confused the names there. Thanks for the correction.
The root cause of that game is covered in the Raynor biography. Well worth a read.
Raynor???
Aaargh. Brings back memories..... We Seriously Struggled and the Polish Keeper saved them...... Devastating evening.....
Our then Swedish TV Saturdays' Tipsextra, which gave us live broadcast ENG football - full matches, at least when pitches weren't just complete dirt piles and matches called off, when you the Brits hadn't - led to the now totally inconceivable folly that I cried at these scenes. But in the end Jan Tomaszewski sent us out as well - you need to practise pronouncing that name though, mate 🤣🤣🤣.
Not that you lot care sh*t, but for your information I'm telling you we then ended ~5th in Munich depending on how to assess. Called Revival of SWE football following a bleak decade after runner-up in Stockholm '58.
In this game Poland got their self confidence. The sesult of that self confidence you may watch during their performance during the world cup in Germany. The games against Argentina , Italy , Germany and Brazil
England didn't qualify to WC 1974 but four years later didn't qualify to Argentina'78. So seems like that 70s was like a collapse of English football. There is interesting comment in interview in this video : ua-cam.com/video/Fqm4QzDhRSY/v-deo.html :) . In Poland this match is a legend. First time I could watch full match replay was in mid of 80s - I remember how big disappointment it was, England completely dominated. Hard to believe that Poland in next in WC'74 finished on 3rd place. If you are interested : there is few comments from former England players ua-cam.com/video/gwW9mCZ1SF4/v-deo.html and another one video from Polish TV , 30 anniversary of this match : ua-cam.com/video/HQMffC2CJXw/v-deo.html
I remember on the Thursday after we were glum and dumbfounded! So I just emigrated.
I was there. We didn’t boo after the whistle, we were far too dismayed to do that. 1973 definitely marked the end of an era for English football. In 1970 we had run up against a supercharged Brazil (and much more), and there was a feeling that we’d been very unlucky. But as you say, we should never have been in this situation at Wembley (needling the win), and we were just not good enough in qualification. Poland went on to come third in the 74 WC I recall. England have never won a major trophy since. Oh yes, and Chas and Dave referenced the game in ‘Gertcha’. 🏴
There was no foul, it was hand ball, look at referee, he is pointing that out.
it's always england disgrace isn't it?year after year!england 0-9 malta is no disgrace!malta employed the sweeper system and kept catching england on the break!0-9! that's no disgrace that lads!
Couldn't see it at the time but know i look back on it the reason England under performed through the 70s is because they simply weren't good enough sure yes we could turn on a performance now and then against inferior teams but at the top level our style of football was primitive within the extreme tactics were at least 20 years out of date sounds a bit like nowadays 😯
Hunter said before, that if anyone got in his way, he'd 'whack 'im'. But when it came to the crunch, he didn't.
You are indeed not English. However, you are Australian and your name is Jason Donovan and I hereby claim my prize
lol
I was 14 at the time and I cried like a baby, that was the last time, but still waiting for another tournament win. I was fortunate to witness the 1966 World Cup win so I can take that to my grave but I won’t cry any more it’s only a game!
That's football! The ball is round...anything can happen. But Poland were lucky to salvage a draw...as I remember watching it live...the memories of so many missed chances...26?...& only a penalty put away. The Polish goal wasn't just Hunter's fault. Hughes left the scorer in space & Shilton ought to have dealt with a routine shot...as he usually did. Haunted still at such a bad bounce of the ball@Wembley.
I was 21 when Hunter flunked that pretend tackle. Seared into the memory.
I see Shilton filled himself with glory AGAIN.
An offensive attack? You mean an attack that upsets people?
lol
Since the defeat to Germany in the 1970world cup tournament England did recover for 30 years not good enough then or now .they just ain’t got the killer instinct to get them over the line even when we won it in 66 the were not the best team
I think the performance of the Polish goalkeeper (however you choose to pronounce it) was a little overblown. Two great saves and a lot of flapping.
Lovely to listen to an American talking about football. It's like a robot describing plants.
Keep going through mate. God and man loves a trier. X