The problem with Thorfinn's way of thinking is that he can't possibly understand the other men. He's so strong that he doesn't even need a weapon to be able to defend himself. Not everyone is as strong as him and he doesn't seem to take that into account.
yeah, if you don't want weapons you should at least train the men in hand to hand combat, that's not specifically targeted at the Lnu either, even for inter-tribe conflicts it's good to know how to defend yourself... super curious for the next chapter
Meanwhile both groups have old men stoking paranoia about the dangers of trusting people who they do not fully comprehend, no doubt based on their own life experiences and self-preservation.
@@mattiass1 I remember the same arguement was brought down in Vagabond. "Someone like you who just lived through the sword and is strong cannot see the weak." This was told to Musashi from his best friend. FUCKING SHIT I love these series too much.
I understand Thorfinn's point of not having weapons. To make a country without war. But I agree with Ivar arguing his point of having weapons to defend themselves, which they have the right to.
This was addressed before. The problem with swords is their primary use is as a weapon to cause violence. A sickle’s primary use is agricultural. So it is still worth having
They can't disarm and still function in their world. Bows and spears for hunting and axes for woodcutting. Absolute necessities in their situation. Spears and axes were far more common weapons among the Nordics than swords. The whole "disarmament" angle is foolish.
Gudrid in this specific chapter became clearly the worst character of the entire Vs manga . Her simplistic mindset alongside her annoying tone non existent character development from her introduction . A great disappointment for the series up until now
Imo Thorfinn is wrong here, they should at least keep the weapons somewhere in case they are being attacked. We still dont know what happened to the other settlement and there is a good chance the Inu wont stay peaceful forever if the settlement keeps expanding
Well, the Inu elder does not trust the vikings and not only that she does not want the natural area to be converted into a farmland. Plus, thorfinn has the most experience when it comes to war and hence he wants to prevent it. He does not want the people of his tribe to go through the hell of war. Not only that, you are assuming that thorfinn's tribe is immune to having a bad apple. Well, that happens to every single nation or kingdom. Threats can come from within but so far the village is small and the people here are just normal.
Also one more thing, why do the Inu's want to drive away the tribe in the first place ? The Inu's should really present this problem to the tribe if they were to resolve it. Plus, violence would not even work as the problem itself has nothing to do with savagery or raiding at all.
He’s not wrong. There’s something people always say about guns; if you keep them, one day you’ll use them. A sword is similar that way. Thorfinn really wants to project zero hostility to the natives. Most people will not fight you if they sense no hostility.
@@looiyuanjieyuanjie1451 The Inu live in perfect harmony with the forests, something Western civilisations have proven incapable of. We destroy nature all the time, and the Inu don’t like that. That’s why the chapter where Hild goes alone into the forests was so important. She refuses to kill the bear unnecessarily, and the spirit notices that she is someone who respects nature and the wilderness. Thorfinn, Einar, and the rest want to tear down the forests to plant wheat. Hild and the Inu care about the forests. Look at modern times. All the deforestation humans have done for agriculture has greatly contributed to climate change.
but i have to say... i do love the fact that the pro-weapon side is not taking the settlement by force, they legitimately want to help and like Thorfinn but are worried that his ideology may cause them being unable to defends themselves should something happen...it would've been really easy to just make them stupid war-mongering jerks, but the author is really doing a great job with them.
i am really liking how this manga is evolving: while i do understand raising an eyebrow to the women all being pacifists and seeing war as a "man being stupidly macho" the way i see it, it makes sense, those women have probably never seen any direct threat to their lives from an outside "enemy", not only talking about war, predatory animals like wolves probably either stayed away from the houses or men chased them away... it is only logical that this would devolve in the naive mindset of "no need to prepare to protect yourself from outside forces". The men, on the other hand, not only probably had seen battle, but they probably also faced predators and, as such, it is normal for them to worry about being prepared to protect themselves from outside forces that may come into their lives with a slight bit of paranoia. (Cordelia also makes sense, since she has been terrified of war all her live she probably will embrace any side that tells her she doesn't need to ever participate on it or see it) Look no further than Hild, she is probably the one on Thorfinn's side that understand the mindset of the pro-weapons side the most, not only having seen war, but also having faced predators. honestly, at the very least Thorfinn should try to train the people on the settlement on non-lethal methods of self-defense...something to make them feel safe without having to rely on weapons or death... but that would be extremely hard, take a lot of time and might not even work... so i am interested in seeing how this develops.
Well the thing is, if shit hits the fan, the men are the first line of defence. If the Natives attack or even wolves, they'll need weapons to defend themselves. What Thorfinn and the women are asking for is for the men to have nothing even if they have to fight
If the lnu have bow and arrow,then it would be difficult for them to defend in spite of learning self defense, they can use shields but i dunno if it will be allowed to use. Really excited to see how it progresses
The thing with Eyvar is that he wants the natives to attack. He wants to fight. He said it himself: he likes war. Everything he has said so far about self-defense is a pretense. If the natives never attacked, Eyvar would attack them. Gudrid is right: men of that period where raised to admire and even look up to war. Odin, Valhalla...all that stuff. It’s societal programming. So all the men from that time *want* to fight. If there had the option of negotiation or war, they’ll choose war every time. I had an ex-girlfriend who once dated a PT who she knew was prone to violence. One evening, we’re going out and she says “Let’s not go to that bar, he’ll be there and if he’s drinking he might start something”. I said “Don’t worry, if he starts something, I’ll be able to defend us”, which is true. I’m a decent fighter. But she said something that took me aback, she said “You want to fight him”, and she was right. Self-defense wasn’t it; I wanted to go there to increase the chances of running into him, hoping he’ll start something so I’ll fight him. She knew that, in the same way Gudrid knows that men just want to fight. Yes, there are people who will trample on you if you don’t defend yourself. But from personal experience, most people would back off if they sense zero hostility from you. Which is what Thorfinn believes; if the natives sensed zero hostility from his people, they wouldn’t attack them. Building a fortress is basically a sign of preparation for war, the opposite of zero hostility. We went to another bar.
Thorfinn is definitely in a tough situation. Keeping weapons around would mean that he’s considering “the last resort” as an option. Ivar & Stork brought up some great points. I’m excited to see how Thorfinn goes about protecting Vinland while still avoiding the final resort.
I believe thorfinn will get a real shock which will shake up his worldview, if he himself can't be harmed then then next worst thing will be if he loses one of his own, a family member. Maybe then he will realise the fear the other men who are not as strong as him do
The thing is some left wing people in Japan believe that the peaceful constitution is what kept Japan free of war since WW2 when in fact it is the the self defense force, US military alliance, presence of US bases in Japan, and the US nuclear umbrella. It's quite frustrating how naive that way of thinking could risk invasion from other countries. At least, there should be a stash of weapons in case of an emergency in Thorfin's case(eg. axes that could be used for cutting down trees but also used as a weapon, bow and arrows for hunting but also as a long range weapon, shields, helmets, chain male as defensive equipment etc). However, if their village were to be attacked by fire arrows and a surprise attack, it would be very vulnerable without any forts or walls around the residential area.
I think the idea of defending yourself against the potential threat of the other has been discussed in the previous chapter, when ivar was building that wall to defend the settlement, and hild pointed out that the act of wanting to defend yourself is what exactly will bring about a war as it give the other side the idea that you're thinking of potential war. And that's what is so difficult about the experiment thorfin is running in Vinland, his whole ideology can fall apart very easily and will fall very likely by the end of the series, Thorfin, unlike canute, does not believe that peace can brought up by force as it won't be real peace, and this is why he is avoiding any idea that deals with weapons and war, his method consist of escaping as much as one can, and only use violence as the last resort, because we've seen it countless of times that fighting could have been avoided with just a small talk, that violence does not really bring good things in the grand scheme of things.... Thorfin is eventually thinking of the last resort, many people seem to misunderstand his character and the experiment of Vinland, he understands what the others are saying but the problem is that no one in the settlement except einar and hild, and unfortunately a lot of the audience, seem to not really understand his ideology. The thing about men agreeing with getting weapons and women not agreeing with that seems natural to me knowing the culture of that group of people, thorfin and einar are just exceptions who built a very different idea of war then what people are raised to beleive in, it's as easy as that. Men have grown to lean towards war whether for defending themselves or for pur pleasure and excitment. And the women have been afraid of war as it only brings them losses no matter what it the outcome of the war. To me it's very natural that women will side Thorfin and that men with sturk and eivar's pov.
The fallacy is that Gudrid thinks war exists to please the men, when in reality it's the other way around. The pleausre/value/self-fulfillment that men find in war evolved from the necessity of war in order to survive.
I think another major plot hole that Makoto Yukimura has is communication/understanding. Makoto even says through thorfinn that communication is key and wars can be prevented through understanding one another. So why doesn't Makoto have thorfinn tell Ivar and the other villagers about his past, right? I think the main problem here is that the men in the village are cowards and they only see thorfinn as a merchant they don't think their leader can protect them if shit goes down. I feel like a quick and easy fix to all this is Thorfinn showing the men who he REALLY IS or atleast tell them about his PAST and the whole problem is solved. Now im not the writer, I havent written 196 chapters. However, even this is plain to see that Makoto is forcing the narrative here. Makoto could easily be writting chapters of thorfinn teaching the men self defense - the same way his father did to defend him before he passed.
I love this manga, I’m EXTREMELY interested to see what decision ends up being made in order to keep true to thorfinns dream but also work for the people around him. That’s one hell of a decision to make
I like your example for pro weapons being the example of Askalad with that village in the winter. For the peace strategy I think of Airnend (the woman slave who died in the farm arc) and how her village was slaughtered because the men who went to fight in war (even if for some it was to protect and some it was for duty and glory they still left them vulnerable and suffering still happened. Like even if they still had weapons there's still a way things could go wrong. I think theres more to articulate with the Airnend example (I just don't have the energy rn) I think it just contrast nicely with your example with the village in the winter
Vinland Saga has one of the best explorations of the futility of revenge I've ever seen, but because the author himself has unrealistic pacifistic views (the translated chapter notes reveal he sincerely believes war is something men inflict on women due to childish reasons), the story was always doomed to start faltering once it actually got to Vinland. Logically, the story should end up as a tragedy where despite the heroes best intentions there is ultimately no escape from conflict, but I feel like Yukimura is now contorting his own story to make it so that Thorfinn isn't naive and wrong, men are just stupid and love war too much. He seems to have a very simplistic understanding of why conflict is a continuous feature of human history. This is a shame because he seemed to have a very good understanding of why revenge can waste people. When it comes to tackling something as big as war, the story falls apart.
In general sense yes, tackling war is difficult for a story especially making political, and philosophical stand. But in this story where it's main theme is violence, it still tackles and strongly implies about violence and why it happens. That's what makes Vinland so great and the story is still questioning those themes of violence through arguments.
Ivar's arguement was actually stronger in this chapter, how is this affected by unrealistic views of the author? We'll see how everything will turn out but you talk like it is certain that it will be a bad conclusion.
Building the fort would be overkill because that gives the Lnu a reason to distrust Vinland. But keeping weapons hidden away just in case is necessary in my eyes
I hate to say it but I do think Thorfinn is wrong here. We already know that a part of the Inu tribe want to get rid of the Vinland settlers and know that there would be a war they would lose if they didn't arm themselves. Having no weapons means they would get steamrolled, simple as. They need weapons as a FALLBACK just in case they DO get attacked, which makes Stork the most logical person here. Very interested in seeing where the next chapter will take the story to.
What the Inu really care about is the forests and Thorfinn’s group are destroying them. And the Inu, while suspicious, where never hostile until that elder saw the visions. If the Inu could teach the Norse to not cut down so many trees and farm sustainably, peace would be maintained. Thorfinn is not particularly skilled at nature preservation. He wants to cut trees and farm. However, if they explained to him why he has to limit his deforestation, he’ll understand. But both sides have already started preparing for war, without actually having a discussion. That’s where Bug-Eyes and Misqe’w are so important to the story. They can communicate with each other and serve as mediators.
I really enjoy the debate in this chapter. Both men have fair points and Ivar isn’t presented as a villain, antagonistic in some ways but his points make sense.
Possibly combine it with a ritual where the killer has to personally bury the killed and offer the weapon as a burial gift. Maintaining a culture of respect and responsibility might diminish further escalation.
Not sure if I'm the only one who thought of it, but if the men/women ratio is 3/1 in the settlement, it is a perfect recepy for instability, no wonder someone will eventually grow frustrated and go on some violent path.
This Chapter remindes me of Thomas Hobbes philosophical work Leviathan. Ivars point is: If you don't know what the 'enemy' is doing then you have to get ahead of them and basically Fight them. That's the rational choice, because you don't know if they kill you even when you are sleeping. Why ist that so? There is fear of others and no Power or political agencys that controls both of them to judge problems and certain things. If Thorfinn and the Lnu could build a political relatinship with proper punishment they would not have that big of a problem. -> If you go by the theory of Hobbes. Just some paralells that I see to Thomas Hobbes contract theory and state of nature of human beings without a state (or God - a state is a human created God) that controlls all. - english is not my frist language -> sorry ^^
Regarding your off-hand comment at 8:50, using a taser stored in a purse as a means of self defense is horrible. Tasers are unreliable in the majority of situations (gets caught on clothing, one or more prongs miss, a bad connection, etc). There's a reason a police officers are always backed by deadly force when using a taser on an armed or unarmed suspect. Instead of tasers, women (and men) should carry a gun AND oc/pepper spray, with the former in some form of concealed carry and the latter in a pocket of some sort. With regards to Vinland Saga, I am quite disappointed that self-defense wasn't focused on as much as it could've been, as all it takes is one nefarious actor to take advantage of an unarmed victim. The story not addressing this point might be due to the author being Japanese as they have some extremely strict laws with regards to self-defense tools, so the thought might not have even crossed his mind.
Just my view on the serie but i think the antagonist of Vinland saga isn't a person or isn't even war it self its culture. I think thats partly where Thorfin is still learning he's fighting against war but its the culture he needs to focus more on ( also does in some ways). The culture they are from is what faciliate this violence. And the problem is even if they convince everyone in Vinland to be allied there will still be "the old world" who might wage war up on vindland so they also need to spread the ideology of the diffrent culture there. i hope my story somewhat makes sense. Any way one additinion thing on this is that we know Thorfin in the end will some how fail and succeed, in the future less people will live with the constant feeling of the need to protect them self and the fear/enjoyment of war. But there are still wars and voilence and "people" wanting to prove how strong they are.
I have to start reading this soon, i bought the first 3 volumes but I just have so much other stuff to read that it’s probably going to be a while before I get to it.
I agree with Torfinn's point but one thing that I love about vinland saga is that each arc has aspect to challenge Thorfinn to growth (Slave Arc = Becoming a Pacifist, Baltic War Arc = put it in practice) and I think this arc is making Thorfinn grow as a leader. You make a great job about the 2 points in the conflict, But I think Thorfinn is making a crappy job getting his point across. He is the leader of the expedition but he does not want to act like one and Hild mentioned at the very beginning of the "Thing". I think the response of the men is expected because they does not understand Thorfinn way of viewing the world and he has not tell them why he does not want weapons and why talking is the first solution. People actually think Thorfinn is just a weak merchant.
Vinland Saga is so frustrating at this point. I don’t expect it to go back to its former action glory days because Thorfinn has changed. But to have NO ACTION for years is ridiculous. It has literally been nothing but talking for years. I’m sure most readers (like myself) just keep up with it in hopes that it’ll get somewhat back to what it was. But I’m starting to give up hope.
I understand both sides, but why would they even agree to go with Thorfinn in the first place? It’s not like he sprung his no weapons philosophy after they set up the settlement.
at some point thorfinn has to reveal why exactly he hates weapons and war so much. also the comments complaining about him clearly haven't read the previous chapters.
Ok here’s my thoughts. What if, the villagers that went missing actually went to combat or regrouped with some of Vikings from the mainland. Back in Vinland there would be conflict possibly even war between the 2 sides and when they least expect it, the missing group of villagers along with the other Vikings are coming to conquer Vinland. This will lead to an all out chaos on Vinland, concluding with Thorfin somehow being a true warrior??
I doubt it, those were just a bunch of farmers, and if they travelled to Iceland to get warriors (wich I doubt Halfdan would help them conquer hostile savage land) the group that sails east through Greenland would have notice it
You make good points you need know how defend yourself this is a real life thing too. And I defo point of the men wanting to defend women folk it's only natural. Though I think Ivar and few other on his side just wants to fight for sake of it unfortunately.
it really sucks that a manga that deals with complex issues usually in a smart way literally gets almost feminazi brained. It would have been so interesting if we got a mix of men and women on both sides, that way, it could have even gone into the gender issue in a great way, like what is is to be a man or a woman and how that can be questions. but the mangaka apparently just shits the bed for the easy dunk?!? "Lol men do toxic masculinity", it's just wierd.
Maybe. But I give it a pass because it's Viking society. The way I see it, the man's job is to protect. He can't do it without weapons. The women who are far removed from the danger live in an idealistic state of privilege. But as we know as long as there are limited resources. Man will come into conflict I would have liked to see more of a mix though
I won't mind this if later on they show the women to be wrong and that they don't understand a fucking thing of the horrible world they are living in (which I highly doubt, but we'll see).
@@user-wu7ew8yb3w i feel like the mangaka put themselves in a hole to where they either double down on toxic masculinity "men are dumb" or they go the complete opposite. Both of which would be bad because there is no nuance in either direction.
Some people are overreacting way too hard to this chapter in the comments. Who cares about war, they shouldn't have brought a sword in the first place. Their goal is litteraly to create a place where war and slavery doesn't exist, did you guys forget that?
Why? Slam Dunk was one of the greatest selling manga if all time. So Inoue is much more famous to a general audience. Plus Vagabond is an adaption of a novel by a legendary author about the most famous samurai that's ever lived.
I dont think i'd ever say this but i really disliked this chapter. It sucked. Vinland saga is so good at making things not black and white. Think to askeladd, he's an evil dude murdering and pillaging but you still kinda root for him and get to know there is more behind him than just a despicable bastard BUT here it felt so goofy, just cartoonish how one side is painted as the war loving evil guys and the other as the pacifistic good guys. The way its portrayed just feels very 2 dimensional. Also gudrid making weird faces and going on some rant about how men only start war is so cringe.
They can't disarm and still function in their world. Bows and spears for hunting and axes for woodcutting. Absolute necessities in their situation. Spears and axes were far more common weapons among the Nordics than swords. The whole "disarmament" angle is foolish. The up-side is this is the *only* point of weak writing I've seen in this epic and that is *staggeringly high* quality.
@@jross7287 Which I have no problem with. No *swords* is fine. But it's nowhere near disarmament. They can still defend themselves with bows, spears and axes.
If I want to defend myself, that means I expect the other to attack. So why do I expect the other to attack? I find that people tend to suspect other people of things that they themselves are likely to do. Thorfinn has zero intention of fighting the Inu, and he assumes they have zero interest in fighting him.
I guess I'm just not american enough to understand the other side, you guys really have a thing for killing and violence in the name of "protection". The people who followed him knew that the "peaceful country" was the center of Thorfinn's journey and still went with him, but at the same time they didn't have his character development, so they won't understand his "a man has no enemies" point of view. Truly sad how cowardly or ignorant people can ruin everything for the others.
The problem with Thorfinn's way of thinking is that he can't possibly understand the other men. He's so strong that he doesn't even need a weapon to be able to defend himself. Not everyone is as strong as him and he doesn't seem to take that into account.
yeah, if you don't want weapons you should at least train the men in hand to hand combat, that's not specifically targeted at the Lnu either, even for inter-tribe conflicts it's good to know how to defend yourself... super curious for the next chapter
That's exactly what i thought
Thorfinn is too strong to understand the need for weapons
Meanwhile both groups have old men stoking paranoia about the dangers of trusting people who they do not fully comprehend, no doubt based on their own life experiences and self-preservation.
@@mattiass1 I remember the same arguement was brought down in Vagabond. "Someone like you who just lived through the sword and is strong cannot see the weak." This was told to Musashi from his best friend. FUCKING SHIT I love these series too much.
I understand Thorfinn's point of not having weapons. To make a country without war. But I agree with Ivar arguing his point of having weapons to defend themselves, which they have the right to.
I think its a set up for Thorfinn to learn a really tough lesson
Banning weapons from your society won't stop anyone from making their own. Oh, and a sickle can still be used as one.
This was addressed before. The problem with swords is their primary use is as a weapon to cause violence. A sickle’s primary use is agricultural. So it is still worth having
They can't disarm and still function in their world. Bows and spears for hunting and axes for woodcutting. Absolute necessities in their situation. Spears and axes were far more common weapons among the Nordics than swords. The whole "disarmament" angle is foolish.
Gudrid: Only Vinland men want to start a war
Me remebering Leif's sister: you couldn't be more wrong
Gudrid in this specific chapter became clearly the worst character of the entire Vs manga . Her simplistic mindset alongside her annoying tone non existent character development from her introduction . A great disappointment for the series up until now
Imo Thorfinn is wrong here, they should at least keep the weapons somewhere in case they are being attacked. We still dont know what happened to the other settlement and there is a good chance the Inu wont stay peaceful forever if the settlement keeps expanding
Well, the Inu elder does not trust the vikings and not only that she does not want the natural area to be converted into a farmland. Plus, thorfinn has the most experience when it comes to war and hence he wants to prevent it. He does not want the people of his tribe to go through the hell of war. Not only that, you are assuming that thorfinn's tribe is immune to having a bad apple. Well, that happens to every single nation or kingdom. Threats can come from within but so far the village is small and the people here are just normal.
Also one more thing, why do the Inu's want to drive away the tribe in the first place ? The Inu's should really present this problem to the tribe if they were to resolve it. Plus, violence would not even work as the problem itself has nothing to do with savagery or raiding at all.
He’s not wrong. There’s something people always say about guns; if you keep them, one day you’ll use them. A sword is similar that way. Thorfinn really wants to project zero hostility to the natives. Most people will not fight you if they sense no hostility.
@@looiyuanjieyuanjie1451 The Inu live in perfect harmony with the forests, something Western civilisations have proven incapable of. We destroy nature all the time, and the Inu don’t like that. That’s why the chapter where Hild goes alone into the forests was so important. She refuses to kill the bear unnecessarily, and the spirit notices that she is someone who respects nature and the wilderness. Thorfinn, Einar, and the rest want to tear down the forests to plant wheat. Hild and the Inu care about the forests. Look at modern times. All the deforestation humans have done for agriculture has greatly contributed to climate change.
but i have to say... i do love the fact that the pro-weapon side is not taking the settlement by force, they legitimately want to help and like Thorfinn but are worried that his ideology may cause them being unable to defends themselves should something happen...it would've been really easy to just make them stupid war-mongering jerks, but the author is really doing a great job with them.
i am really liking how this manga is evolving:
while i do understand raising an eyebrow to the women all being pacifists and seeing war as a "man being stupidly macho" the way i see it, it makes sense, those women have probably never seen any direct threat to their lives from an outside "enemy", not only talking about war, predatory animals like wolves probably either stayed away from the houses or men chased them away... it is only logical that this would devolve in the naive mindset of "no need to prepare to protect yourself from outside forces".
The men, on the other hand, not only probably had seen battle, but they probably also faced predators and, as such, it is normal for them to worry about being prepared to protect themselves from outside forces that may come into their lives with a slight bit of paranoia.
(Cordelia also makes sense, since she has been terrified of war all her live she probably will embrace any side that tells her she doesn't need to ever participate on it or see it)
Look no further than Hild, she is probably the one on Thorfinn's side that understand the mindset of the pro-weapons side the most, not only having seen war, but also having faced predators.
honestly, at the very least Thorfinn should try to train the people on the settlement on non-lethal methods of self-defense...something to make them feel safe without having to rely on weapons or death... but that would be extremely hard, take a lot of time and might not even work... so i am interested in seeing how this develops.
Well the thing is, if shit hits the fan, the men are the first line of defence. If the Natives attack or even wolves, they'll need weapons to defend themselves. What Thorfinn and the women are asking for is for the men to have nothing even if they have to fight
If the lnu have bow and arrow,then it would be difficult for them to defend in spite of learning self defense, they can use shields but i dunno if it will be allowed to use. Really excited to see how it progresses
The thing with Eyvar is that he wants the natives to attack. He wants to fight. He said it himself: he likes war. Everything he has said so far about self-defense is a pretense. If the natives never attacked, Eyvar would attack them. Gudrid is right: men of that period where raised to admire and even look up to war. Odin, Valhalla...all that stuff. It’s societal programming. So all the men from that time *want* to fight. If there had the option of negotiation or war, they’ll choose war every time.
I had an ex-girlfriend who once dated a PT who she knew was prone to violence. One evening, we’re going out and she says “Let’s not go to that bar, he’ll be there and if he’s drinking he might start something”. I said “Don’t worry, if he starts something, I’ll be able to defend us”, which is true. I’m a decent fighter. But she said something that took me aback, she said “You want to fight him”, and she was right. Self-defense wasn’t it; I wanted to go there to increase the chances of running into him, hoping he’ll start something so I’ll fight him.
She knew that, in the same way Gudrid knows that men just want to fight. Yes, there are people who will trample on you if you don’t defend yourself. But from personal experience, most people would back off if they sense zero hostility from you. Which is what Thorfinn believes; if the natives sensed zero hostility from his people, they wouldn’t attack them. Building a fortress is basically a sign of preparation for war, the opposite of zero hostility.
We went to another bar.
Pacifism is only possible through strength. If you are not strong you then you will merely be a victim.
“Speak softly and carry a big stick” -Theodore Roosevelt
Bingo. Exactly.
Thorfinn is definitely in a tough situation. Keeping weapons around would mean that he’s considering “the last resort” as an option. Ivar & Stork brought up some great points. I’m excited to see how Thorfinn goes about protecting Vinland while still avoiding the final resort.
It should be a last resort, but it should still be present. You can't count on every single person in the world having good intentions.
I believe thorfinn will get a real shock which will shake up his worldview, if he himself can't be harmed then then next worst thing will be if he loses one of his own, a family member. Maybe then he will realise the fear the other men who are not as strong as him do
The thing is some left wing people in Japan believe that the peaceful constitution is what kept Japan free of war since WW2 when in fact it is the the self defense force, US military alliance, presence of US bases in Japan, and the US nuclear umbrella.
It's quite frustrating how naive that way of thinking could risk invasion from other countries.
At least, there should be a stash of weapons in case of an emergency in Thorfin's case(eg. axes that could be used for cutting down trees but also used as a weapon, bow and arrows for hunting but also as a long range weapon, shields, helmets, chain male as defensive equipment etc).
However, if their village were to be attacked by fire arrows and a surprise attack, it would be very vulnerable without any forts or walls around the residential area.
I think the idea of defending yourself against the potential threat of the other has been discussed in the previous chapter, when ivar was building that wall to defend the settlement, and hild pointed out that the act of wanting to defend yourself is what exactly will bring about a war as it give the other side the idea that you're thinking of potential war. And that's what is so difficult about the experiment thorfin is running in Vinland, his whole ideology can fall apart very easily and will fall very likely by the end of the series, Thorfin, unlike canute, does not believe that peace can brought up by force as it won't be real peace, and this is why he is avoiding any idea that deals with weapons and war, his method consist of escaping as much as one can, and only use violence as the last resort, because we've seen it countless of times that fighting could have been avoided with just a small talk, that violence does not really bring good things in the grand scheme of things.... Thorfin is eventually thinking of the last resort, many people seem to misunderstand his character and the experiment of Vinland, he understands what the others are saying but the problem is that no one in the settlement except einar and hild, and unfortunately a lot of the audience, seem to not really understand his ideology.
The thing about men agreeing with getting weapons and women not agreeing with that seems natural to me knowing the culture of that group of people, thorfin and einar are just exceptions who built a very different idea of war then what people are raised to beleive in, it's as easy as that. Men have grown to lean towards war whether for defending themselves or for pur pleasure and excitment. And the women have been afraid of war as it only brings them losses no matter what it the outcome of the war. To me it's very natural that women will side Thorfin and that men with sturk and eivar's pov.
Thorfinn is gonna realize reality doesn’t care about his ideals
The fallacy is that Gudrid thinks war exists to please the men, when in reality it's the other way around.
The pleausre/value/self-fulfillment that men find in war evolved from the necessity of war in order to survive.
I think another major plot hole that Makoto Yukimura has is communication/understanding. Makoto even says through thorfinn that communication is key and wars can be prevented through understanding one another. So why doesn't Makoto have thorfinn tell Ivar and the other villagers about his past, right? I think the main problem here is that the men in the village are cowards and they only see thorfinn as a merchant they don't think their leader can protect them if shit goes down. I feel like a quick and easy fix to all this is Thorfinn showing the men who he REALLY IS or atleast tell them about his PAST and the whole problem is solved. Now im not the writer, I havent written 196 chapters. However, even this is plain to see that Makoto is forcing the narrative here. Makoto could easily be writting chapters of thorfinn teaching the men self defense - the same way his father did to defend him before he passed.
I love this manga, I’m EXTREMELY interested to see what decision ends up being made in order to keep true to thorfinns dream but also work for the people around him. That’s one hell of a decision to make
I like your example for pro weapons being the example of Askalad with that village in the winter. For the peace strategy I think of Airnend (the woman slave who died in the farm arc) and how her village was slaughtered because the men who went to fight in war (even if for some it was to protect and some it was for duty and glory they still left them vulnerable and suffering still happened. Like even if they still had weapons there's still a way things could go wrong.
I think theres more to articulate with the Airnend example (I just don't have the energy rn) I think it just contrast nicely with your example with the village in the winter
Vinland Saga has one of the best explorations of the futility of revenge I've ever seen, but because the author himself has unrealistic pacifistic views (the translated chapter notes reveal he sincerely believes war is something men inflict on women due to childish reasons), the story was always doomed to start faltering once it actually got to Vinland. Logically, the story should end up as a tragedy where despite the heroes best intentions there is ultimately no escape from conflict, but I feel like Yukimura is now contorting his own story to make it so that Thorfinn isn't naive and wrong, men are just stupid and love war too much. He seems to have a very simplistic understanding of why conflict is a continuous feature of human history. This is a shame because he seemed to have a very good understanding of why revenge can waste people. When it comes to tackling something as big as war, the story falls apart.
In general sense yes, tackling war is difficult for a story especially making political, and philosophical stand. But in this story where it's main theme is violence, it still tackles and strongly implies about violence and why it happens. That's what makes Vinland so great and the story is still questioning those themes of violence through arguments.
Ivar's arguement was actually stronger in this chapter, how is this affected by unrealistic views of the author? We'll see how everything will turn out but you talk like it is certain that it will be a bad conclusion.
Oh boy a Sunday video. Always good to see more vinland content. Also i got to mod a bot comment off this video, RLR is hitting the big time!
The other Nordmen are right. It is common sense. Thorfinn should know how evil humans can be.
Building the fort would be overkill because that gives the Lnu a reason to distrust Vinland. But keeping weapons hidden away just in case is necessary in my eyes
I hate to say it but I do think Thorfinn is wrong here. We already know that a part of the Inu tribe want to get rid of the Vinland settlers and know that there would be a war they would lose if they didn't arm themselves. Having no weapons means they would get steamrolled, simple as. They need weapons as a FALLBACK just in case they DO get attacked, which makes Stork the most logical person here. Very interested in seeing where the next chapter will take the story to.
What the Inu really care about is the forests and Thorfinn’s group are destroying them. And the Inu, while suspicious, where never hostile until that elder saw the visions. If the Inu could teach the Norse to not cut down so many trees and farm sustainably, peace would be maintained. Thorfinn is not particularly skilled at nature preservation. He wants to cut trees and farm. However, if they explained to him why he has to limit his deforestation, he’ll understand. But both sides have already started preparing for war, without actually having a discussion. That’s where Bug-Eyes and Misqe’w are so important to the story. They can communicate with each other and serve as mediators.
I really enjoy the debate in this chapter. Both men have fair points and Ivar isn’t presented as a villain, antagonistic in some ways but his points make sense.
Possibly combine it with a ritual where the killer has to personally bury the killed and offer the weapon as a burial gift. Maintaining a culture of respect and responsibility might diminish further escalation.
Not sure if I'm the only one who thought of it, but if the men/women ratio is 3/1 in the settlement, it is a perfect recepy for instability, no wonder someone will eventually grow frustrated and go on some violent path.
Disgruntled men with no women leads to violence as always
Leftover men?
This Chapter remindes me of Thomas Hobbes philosophical work Leviathan. Ivars point is: If you don't know what the 'enemy' is doing then you have to get ahead of them and basically Fight them. That's the rational choice, because you don't know if they kill you even when you are sleeping. Why ist that so? There is fear of others and no Power or political agencys that controls both of them to judge problems and certain things.
If Thorfinn and the Lnu could build a political relatinship with proper punishment they would not have that big of a problem. -> If you go by the theory of Hobbes.
Just some paralells that I see to Thomas Hobbes contract theory and state of nature of human beings without a state (or God - a state is a human created God) that controlls all.
- english is not my frist language -> sorry ^^
Regarding your off-hand comment at 8:50, using a taser stored in a purse as a means of self defense is horrible.
Tasers are unreliable in the majority of situations (gets caught on clothing, one or more prongs miss, a bad connection, etc). There's a reason a police officers are always backed by deadly force when using a taser on an armed or unarmed suspect.
Instead of tasers, women (and men) should carry a gun AND oc/pepper spray, with the former in some form of concealed carry and the latter in a pocket of some sort.
With regards to Vinland Saga, I am quite disappointed that self-defense wasn't focused on as much as it could've been, as all it takes is one nefarious actor to take advantage of an unarmed victim.
The story not addressing this point might be due to the author being Japanese as they have some extremely strict laws with regards to self-defense tools, so the thought might not have even crossed his mind.
Just my view on the serie but i think the antagonist of Vinland saga isn't a person or isn't even war it self its culture. I think thats partly where Thorfin is still learning he's fighting against war but its the culture he needs to focus more on ( also does in some ways). The culture they are from is what faciliate this violence. And the problem is even if they convince everyone in Vinland to be allied there will still be "the old world" who might wage war up on vindland so they also need to spread the ideology of the diffrent culture there. i hope my story somewhat makes sense. Any way one additinion thing on this is that we know Thorfin in the end will some how fail and succeed, in the future less people will live with the constant feeling of the need to protect them self and the fear/enjoyment of war. But there are still wars and voilence and "people" wanting to prove how strong they are.
I am not able to find your berserk manga analysis the whole golden age is missing there
I love VS but Thorfin at time doesn't jive with me as mucth we know he's smart is he just holding onto desperation who knows
I have to start reading this soon, i bought the first 3 volumes but I just have so much other stuff to read that it’s probably going to be a while before I get to it.
Thorfinn forgets that the lnu arent the only threat
I agree with Torfinn's point but one thing that I love about vinland saga is that each arc has aspect to challenge Thorfinn to growth (Slave Arc = Becoming a Pacifist, Baltic War Arc = put it in practice) and I think this arc is making Thorfinn grow as a leader. You make a great job about the 2 points in the conflict, But I think Thorfinn is making a crappy job getting his point across. He is the leader of the expedition but he does not want to act like one and Hild mentioned at the very beginning of the "Thing". I think the response of the men is expected because they does not understand Thorfinn way of viewing the world and he has not tell them why he does not want weapons and why talking is the first solution. People actually think Thorfinn is just a weak merchant.
Vinland Saga is so frustrating at this point. I don’t expect it to go back to its former action glory days because Thorfinn has changed. But to have NO ACTION for years is ridiculous. It has literally been nothing but talking for years. I’m sure most readers (like myself) just keep up with it in hopes that it’ll get somewhat back to what it was. But I’m starting to give up hope.
that is true but i guess its not designed to be read monthly, rereading it in one go is a much nicer read
I understand both sides, but why would they even agree to go with Thorfinn in the first place? It’s not like he sprung his no weapons philosophy after they set up the settlement.
Finally you talked about vinland saga
at some point thorfinn has to reveal why exactly he hates weapons and war so much. also the comments complaining about him clearly haven't read the previous chapters.
Maybe, we will hear from him next chapter since lnu is also here
The whole machiavelli thing. There gonna use there germs to win in the end
I would love to hear your opinion on serial experiment lain.. very random but love ur channel and your break downs..
The new ch is out! Imma go read it!
Ok here’s my thoughts. What if, the villagers that went missing actually went to combat or regrouped with some of Vikings from the mainland. Back in Vinland there would be conflict possibly even war between the 2 sides and when they least expect it, the missing group of villagers along with the other Vikings are coming to conquer Vinland. This will lead to an all out chaos on Vinland, concluding with Thorfin somehow being a true warrior??
Edit. Maybe a true warrior, is someone who protects the ones he loves
I doubt it, those were just a bunch of farmers, and if they travelled to Iceland to get warriors (wich I doubt Halfdan would help them conquer hostile savage land) the group that sails east through Greenland would have notice it
You make good points you need know how defend yourself this is a real life thing too. And I defo point of the men wanting to defend women folk it's only natural. Though I think Ivar and few other on his side just wants to fight for sake of it unfortunately.
They should at leat hand to hand combat and have good archers too
it really sucks that a manga that deals with complex issues usually in a smart way literally gets almost feminazi brained. It would have been so interesting if we got a mix of men and women on both sides, that way, it could have even gone into the gender issue in a great way, like what is is to be a man or a woman and how that can be questions. but the mangaka apparently just shits the bed for the easy dunk?!? "Lol men do toxic masculinity", it's just wierd.
Maybe. But I give it a pass because it's Viking society. The way I see it, the man's job is to protect. He can't do it without weapons. The women who are far removed from the danger live in an idealistic state of privilege.
But as we know as long as there are limited resources. Man will come into conflict
I would have liked to see more of a mix though
I won't mind this if later on they show the women to be wrong and that they don't understand a fucking thing of the horrible world they are living in (which I highly doubt, but we'll see).
@@user-wu7ew8yb3w i feel like the mangaka put themselves in a hole to where they either double down on toxic masculinity "men are dumb" or they go the complete opposite. Both of which would be bad because there is no nuance in either direction.
@@jertdw3646 bro u look too offended, I am a man but I don't feel that way. This is probably how it'd turn out since they're nordic vikings lol
@@berketozlu I very mich doubt that but to each their own opinion.
Some people are overreacting way too hard to this chapter in the comments. Who cares about war, they shouldn't have brought a sword in the first place. Their goal is litteraly to create a place where war and slavery doesn't exist, did you guys forget that?
Do you know that Vagabond has sold more than Berserk, I couldn’t believe that when I seen it, I thought Berserk would have sold a lot more than it.
Why? Slam Dunk was one of the greatest selling manga if all time. So Inoue is much more famous to a general audience. Plus Vagabond is an adaption of a novel by a legendary author about the most famous samurai that's ever lived.
I dont think i'd ever say this but i really disliked this chapter. It sucked. Vinland saga is so good at making things not black and white. Think to askeladd, he's an evil dude murdering and pillaging but you still kinda root for him and get to know there is more behind him than just a despicable bastard BUT here it felt so goofy, just cartoonish how one side is painted as the war loving evil guys and the other as the pacifistic good guys. The way its portrayed just feels very 2 dimensional. Also gudrid making weird faces and going on some rant about how men only start war is so cringe.
As if Casca did any good beside getting banged again and again
@@dhruvsenju LOL 💀 ong you did not just say that bro. ☠️ besides that got nothing to do with how the conflict is handled poorly in this last chapter.
Even if there aren't any "outsiders", you still need police and weapons in your own community once the population grows high.
thorfinn is wrong
Ivar is kanda chad
Definitely rare Thorfinn L
Ryan says trans rights?
Based.
They can't disarm and still function in their world. Bows and spears for hunting and axes for woodcutting. Absolute necessities in their situation. Spears and axes were far more common weapons among the Nordics than swords. The whole "disarmament" angle is foolish.
The up-side is this is the *only* point of weak writing I've seen in this epic and that is *staggeringly high* quality.
One could argue spears are more effective than swords
@@maxseemton641 Some do.
@@jross7287 Which I have no problem with. No *swords* is fine. But it's nowhere near disarmament. They can still defend themselves with bows, spears and axes.
If I want to defend myself, that means I expect the other to attack. So why do I expect the other to attack? I find that people tend to suspect other people of things that they themselves are likely to do. Thorfinn has zero intention of fighting the Inu, and he assumes they have zero interest in fighting him.
Algo comment
I guess I'm just not american enough to understand the other side, you guys really have a thing for killing and violence in the name of "protection". The people who followed him knew that the "peaceful country" was the center of Thorfinn's journey and still went with him, but at the same time they didn't have his character development, so they won't understand his "a man has no enemies" point of view. Truly sad how cowardly or ignorant people can ruin everything for the others.
How to be racist with another culture without even making a point about the manga (I am not even from USA I am Greek )
We live in an age where people just don’t seem to understand peace. It’s alien.
stoped reading years ago, seen this review to see how it is going...not coming back to this shit
L
After slave arc except huntress arc and Sigurd arc the rest of the manga is pretty mid . Not bad but much worse than its first two arcs
@@koui4449 for me, lost its magic after askelad died