I am new to HF and was just entertaining the thought of adding an amplifier to my shack. I was still in the research mode when I came across this video. With this new information I’m going to hold off and focus more time and attention on my antenna system and grounding. Thank you for the excellent presentation. 73
You are wise to make sure you have the best antenna that your situation will allow. There is nothing wrong with buying an amplifier but it only comes in handy when the other person is having trouble hearing you. You will make LOTS of contacts without one. Have fun and congrats on getting into HF! - Cliff
Fantastic video! I listened to a couple guys do that experiment last night. Started at 5-7, on my S meter, and he said he was at 100 watts. Then he progressively went down to 0.3 watts, and he went down to about a 4-4. It’s made me very happy with my brand new G90 (first HF radio). That and making an FT8 contact with Australia, technically Tasmania, which is 8216 miles (13223km) from me, on 10m which was otherwise a dead band. No one else was there.
This is a really nice, succinct explanation of the ratio of power to dB. I realized all this empirically one evening listening to my signal via web SDR. I started at 100W and kept dialing down the power. I eventually got down to 0.1W and I could still easily discern the the code. That was when I realized propagation trumps power.
I am happy that you made the point so well. I am on Montserrat in the Caribbean and I did Australia on 100w with a fan dipole on 20 meters. he was suing 400 wats and a beam pointed in my general area. He heard me at 56, and i had him at 55. Antennas are boss
I was only licenced last year here in EI. I have a "100W" transceiver into a 22m Doublet. Lately, I have really begun to appreciate what you're saying in practice. I have a night time issue where when I use more than 15W output (above 7Mhz) it triggers a neighbours PIR - my receive gets washed out with noise. This has forced me to use low power on those bands after dark. I was really annoyed by this at first but one night I heard a K station calling CQ on phone. I tried him on 5W and made the QSO. I have since made a number of transatlantic phone contacts using
Well done. great video I love QRP and I had a contact with a Canadian station about 10 Years ago from UK and I was on 5 watts the guy in Canada had a amplifier and I got him to turn his power done to 500mw and I told him I could still hear him. He could not believe it.!
Excellent video. Most people don't know the best way to increase your readability is to put their money into a great antenna. Amps are expensive, add to the complexity of the system, and can cause RFI. Thanks for the great video! Antenna gain makes much more sense.
Finally someone with common sense to teach us the correct understanding of power vs s units. Thank you. Great video making it simple to understand. God Bless
Great explanation of the Rf Power vs S-meter relation. I've only the last couple years started messing with 20 watts or less. It's been fun having relized how well it actually works!
You handled the math very well, Cliff!---and your picture of the S meter on your rig, graphically demonstrated the point well! Thank you for all the time you put into these informative Vidoe's--- I keep telling myself, I need to get out my old Keathkit QRP rig-- Suppose it would still work? Mack WA2 SJR-- in Western, NY State.
Hi Cliff, First so glad to see more videos coming out. I truly enjoy them and learn from you. This latest is wonderful. I was somewhat aware of the power to S level ratios but you made it easy to understand. Hams would be much better off putting their money into an antenna and transmission line system then an amplifier. I honestly can't understand why these amps cost so much. Have a wonderful weekend and keep up the great work. John
you probably dont care at all but does someone know a method to log back into an Instagram account..? I was dumb forgot my password. I appreciate any assistance you can give me
@Brodie Maximiliano I really appreciate your reply. I found the site on google and Im trying it out now. Takes a while so I will get back to you later with my results.
Older post, but thanks for posting, exactly the refresher I needed as I'm researching required battery power for portable ops and how much I can reduce consumption by reducing Tx output and not feel like I'm missing out by not running 100w. My radio's options are 10/50/100w so I'll start with 50 and go down as able, goal is weekend camping with casual radio fun on a 20ah Bioenno on an older (KenwoodTS-50) radio.. thanks again.
I always though it would be nice idea to have a digital mode where the DX station sent an embedded reception report that controlled your rigs TX power and vice-versa, with the two rigs just barely, but successfully maintaining contact. Maybe in a semi-duplex fashion.. Cliff, your videos new look is excellent with that narrower field of focus. You really stand out and it looks super-professional.. well done
@@CraigPerry They do, I've seen the advert. It's a synthetic Wide Aperture mode and works really well for what it is. I'll not be getting rid of my 50mm F/1.4 just yet though.
This sounds like a really cool idea. I wonder if QSB would cause issues. As you saw in the video, the ham whose SSB audio I captured was battling QSB that varied his signal by 2 S-Units. Those kinds of swings might foil this great idea. Thanks for the kind words, by the way. - Cliff
Thank you. As an outdoor guy who doesn't want to have to carry heavy radios, I love the idea of qrp. This makes me love it even more. You explained this so clearly and so well. It seems that somewhere in studying for my General test, I was presented with this information but it went over my head. You made it crystal clear. I'm really grateful.
I'm glad this was helpful, Reid. You'll make fewer contacts with QRP but you'll make plenty of contacts and they will be more appreciated/rewarding. Have fun out there! - Cliff
Thanks so much for this video, I was trying to explain and convince a new ham of these points and your video does it so much better than I could explain.
Thank you Cliff for sharing this great video. For a ham like myself who is still learning about how equipment, antennas and all the rest of the gear works, you bring the important issues to the table that might not be so apparent. Thank you again Cliff and I'm glad your back. KO4UWU 73
Well presented. First thought that comes to mind is how many UA-cam videos I've seen saying "Don't go qrp for your first rig. Get 100watts..." Second thought, 'Yeah, I don't think I'm ever going to bother getting a linear for HF."
That is a great video, Cliff! As a new Ham last summer I heard repeatedly that I should not get a QRP rig for my first HF radio and that left me with the impression that it is much harder to make contacts with QRP. Your video is clear and fact-based. You have me one step closer to trading in my IC-7300 for something more portable, believing that I might just survive with only a QRP rig. (I can’t afford two radios at this time and prefer operating in the field.)
Thanks, Stuart. Even though I'm an ambassador for QRP, I would have probably told you something similar... to start with 100 watts. You can make plenty of contacts with QRP but the extra two S-Units of 100 watts will allow you to make more. It's like fishing... it's probably better for a new fisherman to be put into a situation where they're more likely to catch more fish. This will ensure that they have a good experience and they may be more likely to stick with the hobby. If you already know that you prefer working in the field, then I'd agree that the excellent IC-7300 is probably not a good match for you at this time. My KX2 is my current favorite radio for the field. But, I've got several (less expensive) CW-only, small radios that I enjoy, too. Have fun! - Cliff
I am new to ham radio, in fact I only have a President HR2510. Since it is an old unit, I turned down the output power to 4 watts on AM and 12 watts on SSB to prolong the life of the finals because they are now hard to find from what I've learned. Now, I plan to turn the deadkey even lower to 1.5 watts and use it with my RM Italy KL300P amp. But a couple of days ago, since propagation is open on 10 meters, I made my very first contact to Germany 10,000 plus kms barefoot and it sure blew me away. Now, I'm having second thoughts about the amp and just enjoy the challenges of QRP. The joy it brings making long distance contacts in such low power is very rewarding in my opinion.
Hello, Francisco. Congratulations on making such a great low-power contact! There is something magical about making contacts with low power. For many, it is the one facet of ham radio they enjoy the most. I always recommend that new hams get a 100 watt (standard) radio in order to make additional contacts when band conditions make it difficult to complete QRP QSOs. My concern is that some hams may give up on the hobby if they struggle to make contacts with low power. I'm glad you are finding it satisfying to try QRP. I hope to talk to you on the air someday. - Cliff
Great explanation Cliff. I strongly believe that resonant antennas, low loss feeder and setting my transmitter up correctly will avoid the need for an amplifier.
Thanks for the video. I know what you're saying is correct. Whether a 2K mile contact can be made (and maintained over a long period of time say 10 minutes) depends to a great extent to the band condittions. I've seen the band change quickly so that stations lost communication for a few minutes while those stations (a net) increased their power to 1 KW trying to maintain QSOs. Only a few minutes later the band changed back and those same hams were able to maintain communications after turning off the big amplifiers. I like qrp and am looking for tips on getting the most signal out. Basically, which feed line and antenna to hook up to my rig. Thanks again.
This video was the deciding factor in my getting into QRP. I still have my high power station as well, but as I find it quite boring due to the waterfall and 800 watts making the sport too easy, I have a renewed enthusiasm for HAM radio after watching many of your videos. Thanks for giving me my MOJO back. 73's W4LIF
I should have known this. I remember back when I was a CB'er a guy told me that if I thought amplifiers were so great to go park next to a radio station antenna putting out 100,000 watts and see if it blasted my radio. Well, of course, it doesn't. Thanks for the reminder and great explanation.
Another eloquent explanation, Cliff. Good job of limiting the subject to something that can be explained in a short time without skimping on details. QRP School is indeed a great name for your channel.
Love your videos! You really have a laid-back way of presenting things clearly. I've been a ham for over 50 years and still enjoy and learn from your videos. 73 de Dick N4BC
I totally agree with you. I once had a qso with someone transmitting 500 watt. I heard him with around S9+15dB. My TX had 10 watt and he received my signal at S9. He was very surprised until I showed him that the difference between 10 and 500 watts are only 17dB. Taking the tolerances of the meters in count, it was exactly what our S-Meters showed.
Thank You for the continued motivation. I finally bought my QRP rig(Elad FDM Duo) and my antenna is a Wolf River Coils vertical and I'm making out to 650 miles in some directions, even though it's too close to my apartment and I'm only using the 3 radials that came with the antenna. Can't wait to get my station out in the open, plus I'm bringing along a Loop antenna and an EFHW antenna too. Thanks again for the motivation 73's
As a new Ham, got my license back in 2016, and yes I still consider myself new. I've learned a few things. Having your SWR's as low as you can get for the frequency your using is preferred. And a good antenna can make even a inexpensive radio sound good. But for HF you want a Antenna up as high as you can comfortably get it, and directional with a rotor so you can point it. I'm pretty much just a 2m/70cm guy, but I do know about antenna's. Good video by the way.
Cliff. Thank you. As a new QRP owner (Xiegu G-90) and totally solar/battery, I was all ready to slap down $600 for a Xiegu 100-watt amp. Then I watched your excellent explanation. I've since spent some of that money on other shack necessities. I'm using a TC2M Terminated Coaxial (6-wire) Cage Monopole invented by G8JNJ. It's so broad banded that no tuner is required - less than 2.2:1 from 1-30 MHz. Look it up. Meanwhile, I'll refurbish my TS-520 with new HV caps. I'm no longer a DX Chaser. I could not care less. Into emergency stuff. Makes better use of my time.
I have known this for many years. But it was really brought home to me when I got a Xiegu G90, an HF radio with 20 watts max output. I am basically able to work (almost) any station that I can hear. There are situations like the receiving station having a high noise level, interference, or one way propagation that make it harder to work some stations. That said, I have worked stations in the U.K., Ireland, and Mexico City with 20 watts in the 3 months or so my antennas have been up at this location (I have been licensed since 1990).
Cliff, you are on fire with all the videos. Keep them coming. I’m a lover of QRP, but like a little power to help get my signal out to more folks. I’m about to start building my Hardrock 50 that just arrived yesterday to help my KX2 out. I’ll take the +1 S-Unit for CW for when I need it.
WOW! What a superb explanation about something that DEFINITELY needs to be explained to those hams, like myself, who have developed preconceived ideas about the subject, out of ignorance .. Thank you very much..and thank you for explaining this in plain language.. 73.. John..G4EIJ
Fantastic video! Thank you this makes me buying a 20 watt QRP radio so much easier when everything I watch says you should get a 100 watt radio to guarantee you make a qso.
You're welcome, Jesse. Your 20 watt radio is down only one-half of an S-Unit from a 100 watt radio. Nobody can hear that difference. This is also a good thing to remember if you're running on battery power in the field with a 100-watt radio. Turning the power down to 25 watts (or lower) will save a LOT of battery power in an emergency situation. - Cliff
And as always, QRP since 1960, and no complaints from the neighbors or family of interference in the TV, VCR, phone, etc. I can but rarely use 100 watts and if I can hear THEM they usually can hear ME! Thanks for another inspiring video. I think most hams with amplifiers are DX hounds or COUNTY chasers and just don’t want to take the chance that they won’t make the contact. That’s OK too, but for just a regular QSO they could turn the amplifier off. Then there is the few who run the maximum power JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN! Some folks just need bragging rights. This is a hobby and I guess it’s whatever floats your boat. Antennas are more important than power and we sure have been blessed with all the antenna information available out there and also with low cost analyzers. And Cliff, if ham radio improves your odds of “picking up chicks” what don’t wives give us extra credit for being smart enough to pass the ham license test? Thanks again for your excellent videos. I hope to see you at FDIM again this year. Dave K8WPE
" if I can hear THEM they usually can hear ME! " That's my experience, too, Dave. Plus, my attitude is that it's okay to fail to make the contact. I don't expect to catch a lot of fish and am tickled to just go out and cast a line, just in case something good happens. I will see you in 18 days! - Cliff
I've done QRP with my Elecraft KX3 running 5W. Taked to a fellow in Virginia who could hardly believe I was only running 5W. He was running 850W and was embarrassed to say I had a good signal. My new station consists of a Yeasy FT-991A, Yeasu FT DX5000, Elecraft KX3, and a home brew vertical. I no longer do POTA due to age but really miss it. I do like working from the beach here in St. Augustine Fl.
great video. only time i would really like an amp is if my antenna needs encouragement to radiate because it was some sort of compromise design I was forced to use.
I'm in the same situation. I have a vertical antenna behind my house in a big neighborhood. It's the best I can do in my situation. I'm thinking that if I used a 1500 amp, stations might be able to hear me that I can't hear. They might reply to my CQ and get aggravated with me when I couldn't hear them due to an elevated noise floor at my shack. In this situation, the operator with a big mouth but tiny ears is known as an "alligator". :-) Cliff
This was a great video! Very informative for a Technician about to upgrade to General and sizing up what equipment I"ll need to get me talking on HF. Thank you.
Thanks for another great video, Cliff. I continue to learn from you and recommend your channel all the time. I think I am restating your thesis when I say that more power is useful only when you're trying to get your signal above the contacts noise floor. Therefore, the principal purpose of more power (in the transceiver or as an external amplifier) is to provide an option for those instances when you're trying to make the contact and need more power to get above the contact's noise floor. Thanks again and 73... de AG7TX
@@QRPSchool Morning Cliff! I had a perfect example of this instance yesterday. I was operating portable on a hilltop east from Carson City, Nevada, where I live. It's noisy at my home location, so I often go out there, set up portable, and spend a few hours outdoors, listening to the radio, and making a few contacts (if I can). I worked a station in Colorado near Denver using my FT-897 and a Wolf River Coils vertical antenna on 40m. My signal report was a 22. His was a 56. But I worked the contact and got the log entry. I could not have worked this contact with much less than the 100w of power from the 897. You're one of my Elmers, sir. 73 de AG7TX
@@nvrumi Hey, if it's "In the Log", that's all that matters. The signal report doesn't matter, really. You got a Win! With Carson City to Denver being about 800 miles, I wonder if the lower radiation take-off angle of your vertical gave you a slight disadvantage over a dipole. A dipole below 1/2 wavelength in height (66' for 40m) starts to work more like an NVIS antenna where the radiation goes higher, allowing you to cover closer-in stations at the expense of DX. Have fun out there, David. - Cliff
That explains quite nicely why I could have a conversation with a couple of different people in New Zealand from Oxnard, CA back in the 1980s with my stock 4 watt Cobra 148 GTL. There's a group of us in the Mohave Amateur Radio Club that are building the QRP Labs kit, The QCX mostly at 20 meters. I'm going to have to break down and learn code. I may have to use my comptuer to send and receive code as I attempted to learn it decades ago and a lot of times I couldn't hear the difference between a dit and a dah.
Ive been a ham for a long time and an s meter is one of my least used readings. What matters most is what is heard or not heard. My ears make all the measurement i need.
My understanding of Power issues was a little fuzzy and I can thank Cliff for making things crystal clear. Plus, I can now feel my ulcer starting to heal as I have been worried sick about how I am going to afford a $4000 amplifier sometime before I become a silent key. He didn't mention it but a good antenna can add an honest 2-4 db and that doesn't change the power bill at all.
Great video. When I first started playing with WSPR beacons and FT8 I would experiment with QRP levels as low as 100mW and QRO levels as high as 100W. On good propagation days I could see marginal increase in range but not enough to warrant the added stress on my rig running a digital mode. I learned some good lessons from those experiments and this video made the results a lot more clear. A good antenna is worth an amplifiers weight in gold 73 NE5U Mike
"A good antenna is worth an amplifiers weight in gold" This is metaphorically spot-on. But, I'd like to have the amplifier's weight in gold so I could retire! :-) - Cliff
@@QRPSchool LOL If you can work that deal let me know. I have a few vintage amps in the que for restoration (way back in the que) that require 220VC and I don't have that in the shop or Ham shack (aka spare bedroom), I would gladly sell them for their weight in gold. :-) Mike
This makes sense for ham radio where Barefoot your probably already running 100 w but for CB 11 meter when you go from 12 watts (ssb) to 150 it's a massive difference lol good video brother
I love it, I love it, I love it! Fantastic video Cliff. You explained this so clearly and with the math it really makes perfect sense. I am not against amps, but like you, I AM a promoter of QRP. I get a FAR bigger thrill from making one QRP contact than I do 10 contacts with 100 watts. Since becoming a HAM in 1992, I have never lived anywhere I could have used a 1500 watt amp. However, if I lived somewhere I could, I'd indeed have an amp to use if needed. But for now, QRP and no ore than 100 watts will keep me content. BTW, I like the soft focus in the background. Vids look very professional!
I like this video I am a adamant QRP operator I also enjoy simpler rigs Much of my gear is rock bound I do strive for efficiency S-Units and decibels do make a difference Of course a little IS all it takes Do not forget A Qrp or Qrpp operator cannot afford to take loss nearly as lightly If a QRP operator does take loss too lightly He will end up buried in the noise Pay attention to loss and make a effort to not give anything away
Thanks for that comparison. I've been doing QRP for a while and am surprised at the results. Qrp allows me to run battery power and make contacts on both SSB and, of course, CW. What really makes the most difference is a well tuned and efficient antenna. A beam on a tower is always better than a dipole on the roof. Perhaps you could do a video on antenna performance for QRP operation.
I really wish I could find the video-l saw a video by a guy in the UK, who had a friend (name and callsign) who had stacked yagis AND ran QRP! I thought that was the most brilliant thing I’d ever seen. As a mobile operator, it gets old being trampled by a QRO guy, boasting he’s running 1kw into a yagi 76’ in the air. He’s got the mic gain and processor cranked up so high, you can hear his cat fart from across the room. I’m really glad AARL outlawed amps for Field Day. WB3CFN
Love the video! So many newbies get turned off QRP because some knuckleheads told him no one would hear him. Question for you: How do you like the TS-480? I’ve got a FT-891 but the “menu” system, especially while in motion, drives me insane. I swear I’m going to dump it for a 480. I put the rig on the passenger seat so I’m not worried about size. Tnx de WB3CFN…dit dit P.S. I did QRP Mobile for a couple years but my antenna “needed help”. Nevertheless… I busted a 20m SSB pile up for a special event station in Germany. Probably 2.5 watts-my 817ND’s battery died 5 minutes later. He gave me a 5x7 and I gave him a 5x9. That car was stickshift…nothing like trying to shift gears with the same hand holding the microphone!
Now i understand why the jump in broadcast radio in watts is so large... most FM stations are broadcasting between 50k -100k watts which is a massive amount more power then us on amateur radio, but to get a really good signal on any old cheap radio inside a house you need to get those s units up very high thus the gigantic jump in wattage that FM broadcast do typically. This really backs up what your saying (I believe) please correct me if im wrong and excellent video, subbed and belled really enjoy your presentation and knowledge.
Most FM 100K ERP stations have about 20Kw transmitters that will make that level of ERP (effective radiated power) by feedline (usually 3 to 4 INCH coax) loss plus antenna gain. Once I got called out to service an FM broadcast transmitter that "just didn't sound right", thinking there was a studio to transmitter link issue. Link checked OK, went to tower, found a bad final tube and driver tube, so I was hearing the transmitter over 30 miles away quite well on what power was leaking through two bad tubes from the pre-driver stage. Goes to show you, it's all about antenna and at VHF frequencies, antenna height.
I agree with your math, but I have broken pile ups with a little more power when the 100 would not do it. I don't feel the need for a full gallon and a half amp, but 800 to a 1000 does make the difference in my experience. I usually run 20 drive and get 250 out. I do work barefoot alot, and do make qrp contacts too. I don't turn on the amp every time I operate, but on 80 meters at night, when the static crashes take over, you better put some power down, or the receiving station is not going to make their ears bleed any longer then a signal exchange. I love working QRP to stations that run full limit. They say " I'm running full legal limit" and I say, " working 5 watts " LOL!!! So I agree low power can work, but sometimes the added push makes a huge difference. If I was a cw guy ( learning, but find it hard ) low power qrp work would be great. Really love your videos, your production quality is very good. Keep it up, and maybe it will help me get motivated to practice cw.
I think we’re on the same page. If I really care about making the contact, and 5 watts isn’t cutting it, I’ll go to 100 watts. If 100 watts isn’t cutting it, I’ll just figure it wasn’t meant to be! (I don’t own an amplifier) I’m not anti-amplifier... I just want people to know that an amplifier can make some contacts possible that might not otherwise be possible, but it doesn’t make your signal “loud” vs. 100 watts. -Cliff
@@QRPSchool Yes we are. I do have an amp, yet have done alot with just the radio. Some guys run full monty whether they need it or not. Heard a guy on 20 tonight who made the statement , " you need an amp on 20 or you won't make a contact". Well, thats just wrong. That being said, I have made contacts with the amp when the radio alone is just not enough.
Thank you for this very informative video! I also watched your first video on QRP and S-units from a while back and this one is better defined! You can't argue with the math and the visual was great! I laughed at your points on the marketing for the amps. Thanks again for this video, now I don't have that feeling of NEEDING a 100watt rig and I feel better about my QRP Yaesu 817ND.
I'm glad you said this, Nick. This video contained the same math as my "Why QRP Works" video but I felt I could do a better job presenting it in this way. Rock on with your 817! - Cliff
Great video Cliff! I am into qrp since I got my license 41 years ago. My first rig was a Kenwood TS-120V, FT-817, IC-703 were on my way, and now I really love my KX2 (even it has flimpsy case which is far from rough as a portable rig should be) 73s od better 72s (hi) de Stephan, DF6PA
Hello, Stephan. I have heard others complaining about how the KX2 has holes and things that would allow moisture into the radio in the field. I don't operate in rainy weather but it does make me think that Elecraft should consider making a field radio more weather-resistant... like many of the hand-held VHF/UHF radios. Have fun! - Cliff
There's definitely a relationship between watts and S-Units and you explained it quite well. There's also a relationship between watts and ego, but I don't know the formula.
This is all correct . I have the Kenwood ts 480 hx , and have been using it in my work van with a 3 metre outbacker outreach , since the rig first came on the market . My mobile station was about as good as i could do without getting an amp . It is very true the extra 100 watts makes very little difference most times , i have done many tests over the years turning down the power to 100 , 50 10 and 5 watts . I would say that if you have a very good a aerial and low power this is way better than high power with poor aerial . MY Icom ic 703 (10 watts ) in the shack with a 72 metre doublet at 18 metre is every bit as strong as my mobile set up ( many tests over the years ) . Thanks for your video
Hi sir may i ask something does this table you show and value and principles applies also on vhf ? Because i see that you test it in hf all of my rig was vhf ,, thanks 73
great video, great information. I’d just like to point out a couple of things. 1. 1 S unit is 6 db only in iaru theoretical recommendations. Very few radios respect that. But it doesn’t matter in the end cause what matters is the real Signal+noise/noise ratio. And is the ear to perceive that. That means if your signal is comparable to the noise even doubling power, 3 db, is a significant difference, as you said. 2. Unfortunately one has to fight strong qrm many times, more than just band noise. And when the receiver has an adjacent guy putting out 1500w is where you’ve got a problem even if you’re strong S9. And so again 3 or 6 db help quite a lot. To work in harmony everybody should lower the power. If I can hear you S9 with 100w why in first place you need an amplifier. So will do the adjacent one and so on. Less qrm, less splatters, less listening fatigue.
I guess its not TRUE QRP but I was thrilled to get contacts with New Zealand from Oregon with the same ham on two separate SOTA activations he had me at a "41" RST both times so the amp definitely would have helped bring me up out of the noise a bit better but still perfectly workable even during this time of "Horrible solar conditions"
Way to go, Zachary! At the end of the day, all that matters is that "it's in the log." It doesn't matter how ugly it was or how many times you had to repeat your info! :-) Working New Zealand on a SOTA activation is fantastic!!!! - Cliff
I was talking to a guy in Florida. I was 100W. He was QRP @5W. I cut my power to 5W and other than a slight increase of noise over signal from me, he had no trouble and we continued the QSO.
For weak signals, 6db makes the difference between a contact or no contact. It's all about increasing reliability that's why most commercial stations run power. I agree, most of the time, it's not needed. You can't control conditions, but you can increase readability a little.
I didn't throw the brick at my monitor, I threw it at you.... The monitor just got in the way... Seriously now. I like both. I had a Swan 350 and FT-817. I also had about a 150' dipole up 75-100 feet fed by 300ohm tv lead. So I like both QRP and QRO. I have 100 watt radios that can operate QRP and an FT818. I miss the extra power from the Swan, just not the drift, etc that goes with it. What was funny is the day I received the 817, I hooked it up to my dipole. The default frequency it turned on was on 20m where there was a big pileup for some DX podition. Pileup noise was over S9 on my meter, but for kicks and giggles, I called out my call/QRP. I won the pileup on first call! Big surprise to me. First time QRP, first call, first contact on it. Most of the time when I had that antenna, I was the desired QRP station in the wall paper nets. I've since moved and I miss that antenna much more than I miss my Swan. The best point you made was about the noise floor. First licensed in '78, I have seen radios go from tube to computer. Last night, I got my HF rig, an Icom 7100, on the air with a random wire and tuner. (I mean I tossed anything I had out just to see if I could get on the air until I could get a real antenna up.) I went to 75 at rush hour and used the noise reduction and pass band tuning to clear out the noise. I was able to receive and understand stations that were absolutely not there, or not legible without that technology. Getting through using QRP is much easier today than it was in the 70's and 80's. And more hams have high-tech radios today than they did back then. If you take your qrp to the field, you know you are operating on a compromise antenna as well as power. The antenna makes a lot of difference. The combination of a good receiver and a good antenna make more of a difference in receiving your signal than power. I made up my own law decades ago. "Given sufficient propagation any antenna can communicate". Like you said, it is the noise floor that matters. Can you get over it? I hope to be fully on the air by Christmas. When I am, I hope to catch you on the air. I know this is an old video, but it's still valid. Keep up the good work. 72's N4PGW
Thanks for a great comment. I have a friend (AD4CJ) who got DXCC with a wire antenna in his attic. When propagation is good, practically anything will work. We've all heard stories of old-timers using a light bulb for a dummy load and making a contact when accidentally forgetting to switch from the light bulb to the antenna. I hope you get your antenna up soon, and have a great Christmas! - Cliff
@@QRPSchool Thank you, I hope so, too. Speaking of "light bulb" dummy loads, one night the Georgia group was working each other and one of them tuned up on a light bulb. They started to "complain" about inconsiderate novices. The guy tuning up didn't think it mattered, so he made a call. It started a "dummy load" shootout. It was a hilarious night. I couldn't join, but I had fun listening. You know, some hams are crazy and I was raised (ham wise,) by these crazy fools, so guess what I am.... God bless 72
I respect your comments and agree with the overall theme. I do feel however you undersold the noise floor variable. In my 40 years on the air my experience is that about 1/3 or more contacts are made right around the noise floor, so an amp would be a difference maker for 1/3 of them. While you did caveat with the noise floor I feel you inferred near absolutes without its frequent impact. If an operator wants more success, and in a sharply noticeable percentage, he/she will appreciate the amplifier. Can the operator be highly successful without it? Yes. Will he miss many opportunities over time? Also yes. 73 KM5L
Agreed. If the receiving station’s noise floor makes him unable to copy your weak signal, you can either turn up your power OR walk away. I don’t have an amplifier so going past 100 watts isn’t an option. If 100 watts doesn’t cut it, I just figure it wasn’t meant to be. Thanks for your thoughtful comments. -Cliff
Because the signal is dissapated mostly in all directions, (Dipole or onmi) . The station on the other end will only see a fraction of a 4 fold increase in power because only a fraction of it is going to the other station. What about if you're running a yagi with 15 Db gain and 30 degree beamwidth ? in this case it's likely that two thirds or more of that power increase will reach the target. EME guys use a little power for a reason. Btw, i am a fan of QRP . Did alot of it in the 90's .
"Because the signal is dissapated mostly in all directions, (Dipole or onmi) . The station on the other end will only see a fraction of a 4 fold increase in power because only a fraction of it is going to the other station." Nope. Sorry. When you increase your power by a factor of 4 (100 watts vs. 400 watts), the receiving station will record your signal as 1 S-Unit stronger. That's just a fact. And I have tested this on-the-air with a friend on HF, having him double and quadruple his power while I watched the S-Meter on my Flex Radio software. Try it yourself. It's not theoretical, it's real. Thanks - Cliff
@@QRPSchool did you do this test on a dipole and then on a Yagi ? inverse square law , almost all of it is dissapated in all directions but with a Yagi , at least half or more of it is realized at the receiving end. You did your test on a dipole on HF . You should try it on 144 or 432 thru a high gain Yagi ... and that's why i said the receiving end only sees a fraction of a 4 fold increase in power from your dipole. They don't hear you 4x stronger, they only hear you 1 S unit stronger. That said, 1 S unit is still alot. You seem to be trying to correct me but I think you read my response wrong.
I've also found different results than what mathematics would predict. In different configurations, I've always got 3 to 4 more S points for a 10 times power amplification. S1 with 100w moved up to S4 to 5 with 1000w... S5 with 100w would give S8 to 9 with 1000w. Done with different TRX over 25 years. I perfectly know how the db work, but that's unfortunately not what I've found on the air. I'm still looking for an explanation... And when I'm looking for real experimentation videos that show the S-meter received signal depending on the transmitted power, I find nothing nowhere. A very simple experimentation would be that a handful of ham operators, using different TRX, record their s-meter for 1, 5, 10, 50, 100, 500, 1000 and 1500w transmitted power and starting from s1, s3, s5, s7 and s9, using directionnal antenna if necessary. That would end up any controversy. As of now, I know what to expect from the db charts, and couldn't observe its application on the air.
Some radios have an SWR meter that isn't calibrated properly. However, my Flexradio rig does have a nicely linear meter and I have tested it with a local ham who lives two miles away. I took note of his reading and then had him increase his power as I watched my meter. It was EXACTLY as predicted... quadrupling his power yielded one additional S-Unit. I really wish I'd made a video showing this. I suppose I still could make that video, but something tells me that many hams wouldn't believe it even if they saw it with their own eyes. - Cliff
Qrp can be fun. I've made contacts from Alaska to Japan on half a watt. That being said, often I need my amp to make a contact. Let's look at it this way, when your signal running 1kw yields say an s4, your qrp signal would not be heard, and the 100w signal would be s3ish which may or may not be heard above the noise. I don't advocate pumping out max legal to chat across the street, but some days the amp is the difference between lines in the log book and static.
Yeah Cliff we r good lol...very nice video, im in love with qrp as well....but unfortunately noise floor is too high in my area, on 40m its around S9....i ve tried almost everything but unable to reduce it down...dont know noisy neighbors or what....any technique u know to reduce, kindly share it...thanx
My noise floor is pretty bad, too... though, not as bad as yours. I used to have a nice plasma TV that I had to give away because it was causing so much interference. And, when my wife is on the treadmill... forget ham radio. That treadmill motor renders my radios useless. I don't have any advice for you, I'm afraid. :-( -Cliff
loctite222ms certainly it will not...when i do dxing i get lots of spots people trying to reply my call, but i couldnt hear them bcoz of high noise floor, its so frustrating
As always, excellent video. I've never owned an amp and I was first licensed in 1971. Last year I managed to work WAS from my current QTH in about 6 months - at no more than 30 watts to a low inverted L. Low power does work. And I love my KX3 for portable use. You still riding the motorcycle? de ke2sx
Congrats on your low-power success, Gregg. Yes, I'm still riding my motorcycle. I just got the oil changed yesterday and am looking forward to taking it on a QRP outing at some point. Mostly, I'm just hopping on it and escaping work for an hour or so at a time. (I work from home and enjoy getting the heck out of the house!) - Cliff
This is why my short 80 mb vertical, which is about 75% efficient, almost works as well as a full size quarter wave.... I honestly can't tell the difference... so a short but relatively efficient monopole antenna for long wavelengths makes sense if a full size antenna becomes unrealistic... especially on 160m.
I used to own a copy of a heathkit sb200 ... brilliant amp and the best bit was ... it kept the shack warm 😂 ihave an FT817 and an Ic 7300 but usually i run no more than 30w ... but my favourite mode is ½ w on WSPR
As a scientific standard doubling your power increases your signal 3 dB. Also according to the same scientific definitions one s unit equals 6 db. Common math will show that a 5 watt signal versus a 100 watt signal increases the signal approximately 13 db or approximate 2 s units. Yes, not significant on 10m at the peak of SS cycle 19 with a noise level less than S1 and QRP sigs at S9 (given no QRM). However, 2 S units are very significant when the noise level is S3 and the 5 watt signal is near 3.1 S units with QSB. A boost of 2 S units will be very significant. Add another 2 S units with a legal limit amplifier and you will see a 4 S unit difference. Significant.
which turns out to be 8 S units in a modern yeasu radio for example where each S unit is a difference of 3 db, not 6. Unfortunately there’s almost no radio out there where an S unit is 6 db, especially on lower portion of the meter. That’s just iaru recommendation followed by practically no one manufacturer.
@@IZ0MTW Interesting, After working many radio stations running QRP and then turning on their amp as an experiment to 1500 watts (approximate;y 25 db), I have never seen anything more than 4 or 5 S unit rise on my receivers. But yes, it depends how the receiver's metering is calibrated. Thanks for your sharing.
I agree with this video. However, the extra wattage is not just to have contact. It can be the difference between hearing some one in the mud. And actually being able to have an enjoyable coversation or qso. I tested this out. Often, times running 60 watts will allow the person to understand me clearly. While 11 watts is audible garble. Sure with 5 watts. We might of barely been able exhange names and locations. But it makes sense. If some one can hear you 100% @ 5 watts. Sure 15,000 watts wont make much difference then..
I am new to HF and was just entertaining the thought of adding an amplifier to my shack. I was still in the research mode when I came across this video. With this new information I’m going to hold off and focus more time and attention on my antenna system and grounding. Thank you for the excellent presentation. 73
You are wise to make sure you have the best antenna that your situation will allow. There is nothing wrong with buying an amplifier but it only comes in handy when the other person is having trouble hearing you. You will make LOTS of contacts without one. Have fun and congrats on getting into HF! - Cliff
Fantastic video! I listened to a couple guys do that experiment last night. Started at 5-7, on my S meter, and he said he was at 100 watts. Then he progressively went down to 0.3 watts, and he went down to about a 4-4. It’s made me very happy with my brand new G90 (first HF radio). That and making an FT8 contact with Australia, technically Tasmania, which is 8216 miles (13223km) from me, on 10m which was otherwise a dead band. No one else was there.
This is a really nice, succinct explanation of the ratio of power to dB. I realized all this empirically one evening listening to my signal via web SDR. I started at 100W and kept dialing down the power. I eventually got down to 0.1W and I could still easily discern the the code. That was when I realized propagation trumps power.
I am happy that you made the point so well.
I am on Montserrat in the Caribbean and I did Australia on 100w with a fan dipole on 20 meters. he was suing 400 wats and a beam pointed in my general area. He heard me at 56, and i had him at 55.
Antennas are boss
I was only licenced last year here in EI. I have a "100W" transceiver into a 22m Doublet. Lately, I have really begun to appreciate what you're saying in practice. I have a night time issue where when I use more than 15W output (above 7Mhz) it triggers a neighbours PIR - my receive gets washed out with noise. This has forced me to use low power on those bands after dark. I was really annoyed by this at first but one night I heard a K station calling CQ on phone. I tried him on 5W and made the QSO. I have since made a number of transatlantic phone contacts using
Well done. great video I love QRP and I had a contact with a Canadian station about 10 Years ago from UK and I was on 5 watts the guy in Canada had a amplifier and I got him to turn his power done to 500mw and I told him I could still hear him. He could not believe it.!
Excellent video. Most people don't know the best way to increase your readability is to put their money into a great antenna. Amps are expensive, add to the complexity of the system, and can cause RFI. Thanks for the great video! Antenna gain makes much more sense.
Finally someone with common sense to teach us the correct understanding of power vs s units. Thank you. Great video making it simple to understand. God Bless
Great explanation of the Rf Power vs S-meter relation. I've only the last couple years started messing with 20 watts or less. It's been fun having relized how well it actually works!
Cliff, that was a perfect no nonsense explanation of transmitted power level against listening level based on decibel level gain. Well done!
de WD5L
You handled the math very well, Cliff!---and your picture of the S meter on your rig, graphically demonstrated the point well!
Thank you for all the time you put into these informative Vidoe's---
I keep telling myself, I need to get out my old Keathkit QRP rig-- Suppose it would still work? Mack WA2 SJR-- in Western, NY State.
Thanks, Mack. That Heathkit right *might* still work. There's only one way to find out... :-)
Hi Cliff, First so glad to see more videos coming out. I truly enjoy them and learn from you. This latest is wonderful. I was somewhat aware of the power to S level ratios but you made it easy to understand. Hams would be much better off putting their money into an antenna and transmission line system then an amplifier. I honestly can't understand why these amps cost so much. Have a wonderful weekend and keep up the great work. John
You are dead-on, John. Thanks. - Cliff
you probably dont care at all but does someone know a method to log back into an Instagram account..?
I was dumb forgot my password. I appreciate any assistance you can give me
@Darwin Landyn instablaster :)
@Brodie Maximiliano I really appreciate your reply. I found the site on google and Im trying it out now.
Takes a while so I will get back to you later with my results.
Older post, but thanks for posting, exactly the refresher I needed as I'm researching required battery power for portable ops and how much I can reduce consumption by reducing Tx output and not feel like I'm missing out by not running 100w. My radio's options are 10/50/100w so I'll start with 50 and go down as able, goal is weekend camping with casual radio fun on a 20ah Bioenno on an older (KenwoodTS-50) radio.. thanks again.
I always though it would be nice idea to have a digital mode where the DX station sent an embedded reception report that controlled your rigs TX power and vice-versa, with the two rigs just barely, but successfully maintaining contact. Maybe in a semi-duplex fashion..
Cliff, your videos new look is excellent with that narrower field of focus. You really stand out and it looks super-professional.. well done
John C cell phones do this
@@CraigPerry They do, I've seen the advert. It's a synthetic Wide Aperture mode and works really well for what it is. I'll not be getting rid of my 50mm F/1.4 just yet though.
This sounds like a really cool idea. I wonder if QSB would cause issues. As you saw in the video, the ham whose SSB audio I captured was battling QSB that varied his signal by 2 S-Units. Those kinds of swings might foil this great idea. Thanks for the kind words, by the way. - Cliff
There was at least one HT in the 90s that could do this on simplex. Might have been an Alinco. I can't remember what they called it.
Thank you. As an outdoor guy who doesn't want to have to carry heavy radios, I love the idea of qrp. This makes me love it even more. You explained this so clearly and so well. It seems that somewhere in studying for my General test, I was presented with this information but it went over my head. You made it crystal clear. I'm really grateful.
I'm glad this was helpful, Reid. You'll make fewer contacts with QRP but you'll make plenty of contacts and they will be more appreciated/rewarding. Have fun out there! - Cliff
Thanks so much for this video, I was trying to explain and convince a new ham of these points and your video does it so much better than I could explain.
Thank you Cliff for sharing this great video. For a ham like myself who is still learning about how equipment, antennas and all the rest of the gear works, you bring the important issues to the table that might not be so apparent. Thank you again Cliff and I'm glad your back. KO4UWU 73
Well presented. First thought that comes to mind is how many UA-cam videos I've seen saying "Don't go qrp for your first rig. Get 100watts..." Second thought, 'Yeah, I don't think I'm ever going to bother getting a linear for HF."
That is a great video, Cliff! As a new Ham last summer I heard repeatedly that I should not get a QRP rig for my first HF radio and that left me with the impression that it is much harder to make contacts with QRP. Your video is clear and fact-based. You have me one step closer to trading in my IC-7300 for something more portable, believing that I might just survive with only a QRP rig. (I can’t afford two radios at this time and prefer operating in the field.)
Thanks, Stuart. Even though I'm an ambassador for QRP, I would have probably told you something similar... to start with 100 watts. You can make plenty of contacts with QRP but the extra two S-Units of 100 watts will allow you to make more. It's like fishing... it's probably better for a new fisherman to be put into a situation where they're more likely to catch more fish. This will ensure that they have a good experience and they may be more likely to stick with the hobby.
If you already know that you prefer working in the field, then I'd agree that the excellent IC-7300 is probably not a good match for you at this time. My KX2 is my current favorite radio for the field. But, I've got several (less expensive) CW-only, small radios that I enjoy, too. Have fun! - Cliff
I am new to ham radio, in fact I only have a President HR2510. Since it is an old unit, I turned down the output power to 4 watts on AM and 12 watts on SSB to prolong the life of the finals because they are now hard to find from what I've learned. Now, I plan to turn the deadkey even lower to 1.5 watts and use it with my RM Italy KL300P amp. But a couple of days ago, since propagation is open on 10 meters, I made my very first contact to Germany 10,000 plus kms barefoot and it sure blew me away. Now, I'm having second thoughts about the amp and just enjoy the challenges of QRP. The joy it brings making long distance contacts in such low power is very rewarding in my opinion.
Hello, Francisco. Congratulations on making such a great low-power contact! There is something magical about making contacts with low power. For many, it is the one facet of ham radio they enjoy the most. I always recommend that new hams get a 100 watt (standard) radio in order to make additional contacts when band conditions make it difficult to complete QRP QSOs. My concern is that some hams may give up on the hobby if they struggle to make contacts with low power. I'm glad you are finding it satisfying to try QRP. I hope to talk to you on the air someday. - Cliff
Thanks Cliff. Enjoy all your videos and this is one of the best. Clear and concise.
Great explanation Cliff. I strongly believe that resonant antennas, low loss feeder and setting my transmitter up correctly will avoid the need for an amplifier.
I'm with you, Sid. I think another factor is that I don't expect to catch every fish so I'm not frustrated when they're not biting that day. - Cliff
Thanks for the video.
I know what you're saying is correct. Whether a 2K mile contact can be made (and maintained over a long period of time say 10 minutes) depends to a great extent to the band condittions.
I've seen the band change quickly so that stations lost communication for a few minutes while those stations (a net) increased their power to 1 KW trying to maintain QSOs.
Only a few minutes later the band changed back and those same hams were able to maintain communications after turning off the big amplifiers.
I like qrp and am looking for tips on getting the most signal out. Basically, which feed line and antenna to hook up to my rig.
Thanks again.
This video was the deciding factor in my getting into QRP. I still have my high power station as well, but as I find it quite boring due to the waterfall and 800 watts making the sport too easy, I have a renewed enthusiasm for HAM radio after watching many of your videos. Thanks for giving me my MOJO back. 73's W4LIF
I’m glad to have helped, Richard. -Cliff
I should have known this. I remember back when I was a CB'er a guy told me that if I thought amplifiers were so great to go park next to a radio station antenna putting out 100,000 watts and see if it blasted my radio. Well, of course, it doesn't. Thanks for the reminder and great explanation.
Another eloquent explanation, Cliff. Good job of limiting the subject to something that can be explained in a short time without skimping on details. QRP School is indeed a great name for your channel.
I appreciate the kind words, Mark. - Cliff
Love your videos! You really have a laid-back way of presenting things clearly. I've been a ham for over 50 years and still enjoy and learn from your videos. 73 de Dick N4BC
Thank you for the kind words, Dick. I really appreciate the encouragement. - Cliff
I totally agree with you. I once had a qso with someone transmitting 500 watt. I heard him with around S9+15dB. My TX had 10 watt and he received my signal at S9. He was very surprised until I showed him that the difference between 10 and 500 watts are only 17dB. Taking the tolerances of the meters in count, it was exactly what our S-Meters showed.
Well done, Wolfgang. - Cliff
Great presentation! "Less is more" comes to mind.
Thank You for the continued motivation. I finally bought my QRP rig(Elad FDM Duo) and my antenna is a Wolf River Coils vertical and I'm making out to 650 miles in some directions, even though it's too close to my apartment and I'm only using the 3 radials that came with the antenna. Can't wait to get my station out in the open, plus I'm bringing along a Loop antenna and an EFHW antenna too. Thanks again for the motivation 73's
Thank you, Walter. - Cliff
As a new Ham, got my license back in 2016, and yes I still consider myself new. I've learned a few things. Having your SWR's as low as you can get for the frequency your using is preferred. And a good antenna can make even a inexpensive radio sound good. But for HF you want a Antenna up as high as you can comfortably get it, and directional with a rotor so you can point it. I'm pretty much just a 2m/70cm guy, but I do know about antenna's. Good video by the way.
Cliff. Thank you. As a new QRP owner (Xiegu G-90) and totally solar/battery, I was all ready to slap down $600 for a Xiegu 100-watt amp. Then I watched your excellent explanation. I've since spent some of that money on other shack necessities. I'm using a TC2M Terminated Coaxial (6-wire) Cage Monopole invented by G8JNJ. It's so broad banded that no tuner is required - less than 2.2:1 from 1-30 MHz. Look it up. Meanwhile, I'll refurbish my TS-520 with new HV caps. I'm no longer a DX Chaser. I could not care less. Into emergency stuff. Makes better use of my time.
Awesome video Cliff, my Elmer has been telling me this for years, but your video and examples sure brought it all together! Thank you for sharing!
I have known this for many years. But it was really brought home to me when I got a Xiegu G90, an HF radio with 20 watts max output. I am basically able to work (almost) any station that I can hear. There are situations like the receiving station having a high noise level, interference, or one way propagation that make it harder to work some stations. That said, I have worked stations in the U.K., Ireland, and Mexico City with 20 watts in the 3 months or so my antennas have been up at this location (I have been licensed since 1990).
Cliff, you are on fire with all the videos. Keep them coming. I’m a lover of QRP, but like a little power to help get my signal out to more folks. I’m about to start building my Hardrock 50 that just arrived yesterday to help my KX2 out. I’ll take the +1 S-Unit for CW for when I need it.
Thank you. Enjoy that Hardrock 50! I like building kits, too. - Cliff
WOW! What a superb explanation about something that DEFINITELY needs to be explained to those hams, like myself, who have developed preconceived ideas about the subject, out of ignorance .. Thank you very much..and thank you for explaining this in plain language.. 73.. John..G4EIJ
Fantastic video! Thank you this makes me buying a 20 watt QRP radio so much easier when everything I watch says you should get a 100 watt radio to guarantee you make a qso.
You're welcome, Jesse. Your 20 watt radio is down only one-half of an S-Unit from a 100 watt radio. Nobody can hear that difference. This is also a good thing to remember if you're running on battery power in the field with a 100-watt radio. Turning the power down to 25 watts (or lower) will save a LOT of battery power in an emergency situation. - Cliff
And as always, QRP since 1960, and no complaints from the neighbors or family of interference in the TV, VCR, phone, etc. I can but rarely use 100 watts and if I can hear THEM they usually can hear ME! Thanks for another inspiring video. I think most hams with amplifiers are DX hounds or COUNTY chasers and just don’t want to take the chance that they won’t make the contact. That’s OK too, but for just a regular QSO they could turn the amplifier off. Then there is the few who run the maximum power JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN! Some folks just need bragging rights. This is a hobby and I guess it’s whatever floats your boat. Antennas are more important than power and we sure have been blessed with all the antenna information available out there and also with low cost analyzers.
And Cliff, if ham radio improves your odds of “picking up chicks” what don’t wives give us extra credit for being smart enough to pass the ham license test?
Thanks again for your excellent videos. I hope to see you at FDIM again this year.
Dave K8WPE
" if I can hear THEM they usually can hear ME! " That's my experience, too, Dave. Plus, my attitude is that it's okay to fail to make the contact. I don't expect to catch a lot of fish and am tickled to just go out and cast a line, just in case something good happens. I will see you in 18 days! - Cliff
I've done QRP with my Elecraft KX3 running 5W. Taked to a fellow in Virginia who could hardly believe I was only running 5W. He was running 850W and was embarrassed to say I had a good signal. My new station consists of a Yeasy FT-991A, Yeasu FT DX5000, Elecraft KX3, and a home brew vertical. I no longer do POTA due to age but really miss it. I do like working from the beach here in St. Augustine Fl.
great video. only time i would really like an amp is if my antenna needs encouragement to radiate because it was some sort of compromise design I was forced to use.
I'm in the same situation. I have a vertical antenna behind my house in a big neighborhood. It's the best I can do in my situation. I'm thinking that if I used a 1500 amp, stations might be able to hear me that I can't hear. They might reply to my CQ and get aggravated with me when I couldn't hear them due to an elevated noise floor at my shack. In this situation, the operator with a big mouth but tiny ears is known as an "alligator". :-) Cliff
This was a great video! Very informative for a Technician about to upgrade to General and sizing up what equipment I"ll need to get me talking on HF. Thank you.
Glad to help. Congrats on your upcoming upgrade to General! - Cliff
Superb video. The 4 guys who thumbs-downed this can't do Maths. 73.
Great video, and details to back up your statements. 73!
Thank, Cam. - Cliff
Thanks for another great video, Cliff. I continue to learn from you and recommend your channel all the time. I think I am restating your thesis when I say that more power is useful only when you're trying to get your signal above the contacts noise floor. Therefore, the principal purpose of more power (in the transceiver or as an external amplifier) is to provide an option for those instances when you're trying to make the contact and need more power to get above the contact's noise floor.
Thanks again and 73... de AG7TX
You are exactly right, David. Well said. - Cliff
@@QRPSchool Morning Cliff! I had a perfect example of this instance yesterday. I was operating portable on a hilltop east from Carson City, Nevada, where I live. It's noisy at my home location, so I often go out there, set up portable, and spend a few hours outdoors, listening to the radio, and making a few contacts (if I can).
I worked a station in Colorado near Denver using my FT-897 and a Wolf River Coils vertical antenna on 40m. My signal report was a 22. His was a 56. But I worked the contact and got the log entry. I could not have worked this contact with much less than the 100w of power from the 897.
You're one of my Elmers, sir. 73 de AG7TX
@@nvrumi Hey, if it's "In the Log", that's all that matters. The signal report doesn't matter, really. You got a Win! With Carson City to Denver being about 800 miles, I wonder if the lower radiation take-off angle of your vertical gave you a slight disadvantage over a dipole. A dipole below 1/2 wavelength in height (66' for 40m) starts to work more like an NVIS antenna where the radiation goes higher, allowing you to cover closer-in stations at the expense of DX. Have fun out there, David. - Cliff
That explains quite nicely why I could have a conversation with a couple of different people in New Zealand from Oxnard, CA back in the 1980s with my stock 4 watt Cobra 148 GTL.
There's a group of us in the Mohave Amateur Radio Club that are building the QRP Labs kit, The QCX mostly at 20 meters. I'm going to have to break down and learn code. I may have to use my comptuer to send and receive code as I attempted to learn it decades ago and a lot of times I couldn't hear the difference between a dit and a dah.
Ive been a ham for a long time and an s meter is one of my least used readings. What matters most is what is heard or not heard. My ears make all the measurement i need.
Cliff. EXCELLENT. thank you for putting in the time and effort to make this video.
Albert.
EI7II.
My understanding of Power issues was a little fuzzy and I can thank Cliff for making things crystal clear. Plus, I can now feel my ulcer starting to heal as I have been worried sick about how I am going to afford a $4000 amplifier sometime before I become a silent key. He didn't mention it but a good antenna can add an honest 2-4 db and that doesn't change the power bill at all.
Eyeopening for a newcomer like myself. Thank you.
Great video. When I first started playing with WSPR beacons and FT8 I would experiment with QRP levels as low as 100mW and QRO levels as high as 100W. On good propagation days I could see marginal increase in range but not enough to warrant the added stress on my rig running a digital mode. I learned some good lessons from those experiments and this video made the results a lot more clear. A good antenna is worth an amplifiers weight in gold 73 NE5U Mike
"A good antenna is worth an amplifiers weight in gold" This is metaphorically spot-on. But, I'd like to have the amplifier's weight in gold so I could retire! :-) - Cliff
@@QRPSchool LOL If you can work that deal let me know. I have a few vintage amps in the que for restoration (way back in the que) that require 220VC and I don't have that in the shop or Ham shack (aka spare bedroom), I would gladly sell them for their weight in gold. :-) Mike
Cliff thank you very much for your very clear explanation of the power to signal difference I am like a QRP guy like you.
Thank you! - Cliff
This makes sense for ham radio where Barefoot your probably already running 100 w but for CB 11 meter when you go from 12 watts (ssb) to 150 it's a massive difference lol good video brother
It isn’t massive, it’s the difference between S6 and S8 which he showed an example of. It’s like you didn’t watch the video, lol.
I love it, I love it, I love it! Fantastic video Cliff. You explained this so clearly and with the math it really makes perfect sense. I am not against amps, but like you, I AM a promoter of QRP. I get a FAR bigger thrill from making one QRP contact than I do 10 contacts with 100 watts. Since becoming a HAM in 1992, I have never lived anywhere I could have used a 1500 watt amp. However, if I lived somewhere I could, I'd indeed have an amp to use if needed. But for now, QRP and no ore than 100 watts will keep me content. BTW, I like the soft focus in the background. Vids look very professional!
"I get a FAR bigger thrill from making one QRP contact than I do 10 contacts with 100 watts." Hear here! - Cliff
I like this video
I am a adamant QRP operator
I also enjoy simpler rigs
Much of my gear is rock bound
I do strive for efficiency
S-Units and decibels do make a difference
Of course a little IS all it takes
Do not forget
A Qrp or Qrpp operator cannot afford to take loss nearly as lightly
If a QRP operator does take loss too lightly
He will end up buried in the noise
Pay attention to loss and make a effort to not give anything away
Thanks for that comparison. I've been doing QRP for a while and am surprised at the results. Qrp allows me to run battery power and make contacts on both SSB and, of course, CW. What really makes the most difference is a well tuned and efficient antenna. A beam on a tower is always better than a dipole on the roof. Perhaps you could do a video on antenna performance for QRP operation.
"What really makes the most difference is a well tuned and efficient antenna." That's so true, Jack. - Cliff
I really wish I could find the video-l saw a video by a guy in the UK, who had a friend (name and callsign) who had stacked yagis AND ran QRP! I thought that was the most brilliant thing I’d ever seen.
As a mobile operator, it gets old being trampled by a QRO guy, boasting he’s running 1kw into a yagi 76’ in the air. He’s got the mic gain and processor cranked up so high, you can hear his cat fart from across the room. I’m really glad AARL outlawed amps for Field Day.
WB3CFN
Love the video! So many newbies get turned off QRP because some knuckleheads told him no one would hear him.
Question for you: How do you like the TS-480? I’ve got a FT-891 but the “menu” system, especially while in motion, drives me insane. I swear I’m going to dump it for a 480. I put the rig on the passenger seat so I’m not worried about size. Tnx de WB3CFN…dit dit
P.S. I did QRP Mobile for a couple years but my antenna “needed help”. Nevertheless… I busted a 20m SSB pile up for a special event station in Germany. Probably 2.5 watts-my 817ND’s battery died 5 minutes later. He gave me a 5x7 and I gave him a 5x9. That car was stickshift…nothing like trying to shift gears with the same hand holding the microphone!
Now i understand why the jump in broadcast radio in watts is so large... most FM stations are broadcasting between 50k -100k watts which is a massive amount more power then us on amateur radio, but to get a really good signal on any old cheap radio inside a house you need to get those s units up very high thus the gigantic jump in wattage that FM broadcast do typically. This really backs up what your saying (I believe) please correct me if im wrong and excellent video, subbed and belled really enjoy your presentation and knowledge.
Most FM 100K ERP stations have about 20Kw transmitters that will make that level of ERP (effective radiated power) by feedline (usually 3 to 4 INCH coax) loss plus antenna gain. Once I got called out to service an FM broadcast transmitter that "just didn't sound right", thinking there was a studio to transmitter link issue. Link checked OK, went to tower, found a bad final tube and driver tube, so I was hearing the transmitter over 30 miles away quite well on what power was leaking through two bad tubes from the pre-driver stage. Goes to show you, it's all about antenna and at VHF frequencies, antenna height.
Great Enlightenment many,, many thanks
I agree with your math, but I have broken pile ups with a little more power when the 100 would not do it. I don't feel the need for a full gallon and a half amp, but 800 to a 1000 does make the difference in my experience. I usually run 20 drive and get 250 out. I do work barefoot alot, and do make qrp contacts too. I don't turn on the amp every time I operate, but on 80 meters at night, when the static crashes take over, you better put some power down, or the receiving station is not going to make their ears bleed any longer then a signal exchange. I love working QRP to stations that run full limit. They say " I'm running full legal limit" and I say, " working 5 watts " LOL!!! So I agree low power can work, but sometimes the added push makes a huge difference. If I was a cw guy ( learning, but find it hard ) low power qrp work would be great. Really love your videos, your production quality is very good. Keep it up, and maybe it will help me get motivated to practice cw.
I think we’re on the same page. If I really care about making the contact, and 5 watts isn’t cutting it, I’ll go to 100 watts. If 100 watts isn’t cutting it, I’ll just figure it wasn’t meant to be! (I don’t own an amplifier) I’m not anti-amplifier... I just want people to know that an amplifier can make some contacts possible that might not otherwise be possible, but it doesn’t make your signal “loud” vs. 100 watts. -Cliff
@@QRPSchool Yes we are. I do have an amp, yet have done alot with just the radio. Some guys run full monty whether they need it or not. Heard a guy on 20 tonight who made the statement , " you need an amp on 20 or you won't make a contact". Well, thats just wrong. That being said, I have made contacts with the amp when the radio alone is just not enough.
Thank you for this very informative video! I also watched your first video on QRP and S-units from a while back and this one is better defined! You can't argue with the math and the visual was great! I laughed at your points on the marketing for the amps. Thanks again for this video, now I don't have that feeling of NEEDING a 100watt rig and I feel better about my QRP Yaesu 817ND.
I'm glad you said this, Nick. This video contained the same math as my "Why QRP Works" video but I felt I could do a better job presenting it in this way. Rock on with your 817! - Cliff
Very interesting video. I'm going to try to do a few qrp contacts because of this.
GREAT vid. fellow tennessean just a few miles away. thanks for the content
Agree👍.and before you ask if or not but , I am a cb radio hobbyist , 20 watt legal cb radio and the whole world is within reach.
Back in the 70’s during the big CB craze, I worked a lot of “skip”, as we called it. And it was practically QRP back then for us. Good times!
Bravo!!! Thanks for setting the record straight! 73
Great video Cliff! I am into qrp since I got my license 41 years ago. My first rig was a Kenwood TS-120V, FT-817, IC-703 were on my way, and now I really love my KX2 (even it has flimpsy case which is far from rough as a portable rig should be) 73s od better 72s (hi) de Stephan, DF6PA
Hello, Stephan. I have heard others complaining about how the KX2 has holes and things that would allow moisture into the radio in the field. I don't operate in rainy weather but it does make me think that Elecraft should consider making a field radio more weather-resistant... like many of the hand-held VHF/UHF radios. Have fun! - Cliff
Tnx Cliff, you inspire me. Gonna go fire up the KX3 and work some SKCC, 73s de KA4NIV
Thank you, Maurice. Have fun! - Cliff
Great video, well said.
There's definitely a relationship between watts and S-Units and you explained it quite well. There's also a relationship between watts and ego, but I don't know the formula.
Thanks, Karl. - Cliff
This is all correct . I have the Kenwood ts 480 hx , and have been using it in my work van with a 3 metre outbacker outreach , since the rig first came on the market . My mobile station was about as good as i could do without getting an amp . It is very true the extra 100 watts makes very little difference most times , i have done many tests over the years turning down the power to 100 , 50 10 and 5 watts . I would say that if you have a very good a aerial and low power this is way better than high power with poor aerial . MY Icom ic 703 (10 watts ) in the shack with a 72 metre doublet at 18 metre is every bit as strong as my mobile set up ( many tests over the years ) . Thanks for your video
Thanks for your confirmation and experience, Rob. - Cliff
Hi sir may i ask something does this table you show and value and principles applies also on vhf ? Because i see that you test it in hf all of my rig was vhf ,, thanks 73
great video, great information. I’d just like to point out a couple of things.
1. 1 S unit is 6 db only in iaru theoretical recommendations. Very few radios respect that. But it doesn’t matter in the end cause what matters is the real Signal+noise/noise ratio. And is the ear to perceive that.
That means if your signal is comparable to the noise even doubling power, 3 db, is a significant difference, as you said.
2. Unfortunately one has to fight strong qrm many times, more than just band noise. And when the receiver has an adjacent guy putting out 1500w is where you’ve got a problem even if you’re strong S9. And so again 3 or 6 db help quite a lot.
To work in harmony everybody should lower the power. If I can hear you S9 with 100w why in first place you need an amplifier. So will do the adjacent one and so on. Less qrm, less splatters, less listening fatigue.
I guess its not TRUE QRP but I was thrilled to get contacts with New Zealand from Oregon with the same ham on two separate SOTA activations he had me at a "41" RST both times so the amp definitely would have helped bring me up out of the noise a bit better but still perfectly workable even during this time of "Horrible solar conditions"
Way to go, Zachary! At the end of the day, all that matters is that "it's in the log." It doesn't matter how ugly it was or how many times you had to repeat your info! :-) Working New Zealand on a SOTA activation is fantastic!!!! - Cliff
I was talking to a guy in Florida.
I was 100W.
He was QRP @5W.
I cut my power to 5W and other than a slight increase of noise over signal from me, he had no trouble and we continued the QSO.
For weak signals, 6db makes the difference between a contact or no contact. It's all about increasing reliability that's why most commercial stations run power.
I agree, most of the time, it's not needed. You can't control conditions, but you can increase readability a little.
you going to do more videos
I didn't throw the brick at my monitor, I threw it at you.... The monitor just got in the way...
Seriously now.
I like both. I had a Swan 350 and FT-817. I also had about a 150' dipole up 75-100 feet fed by 300ohm tv lead.
So I like both QRP and QRO. I have 100 watt radios that can operate QRP and an FT818. I miss the extra power from the Swan, just not the drift, etc that goes with it.
What was funny is the day I received the 817, I hooked it up to my dipole. The default frequency it turned on was on 20m where there was a big pileup for some DX podition. Pileup noise was over S9 on my meter, but for kicks and giggles, I called out my call/QRP. I won the pileup on first call! Big surprise to me. First time QRP, first call, first contact on it.
Most of the time when I had that antenna, I was the desired QRP station in the wall paper nets. I've since moved and I miss that antenna much more than I miss my Swan.
The best point you made was about the noise floor. First licensed in '78, I have seen radios go from tube to computer. Last night, I got my HF rig, an Icom 7100, on the air with a random wire and tuner. (I mean I tossed anything I had out just to see if I could get on the air until I could get a real antenna up.) I went to 75 at rush hour and used the noise reduction and pass band tuning to clear out the noise.
I was able to receive and understand stations that were absolutely not there, or not legible without that technology. Getting through using QRP is much easier today than it was in the 70's and 80's. And more hams have high-tech radios today than they did back then.
If you take your qrp to the field, you know you are operating on a compromise antenna as well as power. The antenna makes a lot of difference. The combination of a good receiver and a good antenna make more of a difference in receiving your signal than power.
I made up my own law decades ago. "Given sufficient propagation any antenna can communicate".
Like you said, it is the noise floor that matters. Can you get over it?
I hope to be fully on the air by Christmas. When I am, I hope to catch you on the air.
I know this is an old video, but it's still valid. Keep up the good work.
72's
N4PGW
Thanks for a great comment. I have a friend (AD4CJ) who got DXCC with a wire antenna in his attic. When propagation is good, practically anything will work. We've all heard stories of old-timers using a light bulb for a dummy load and making a contact when accidentally forgetting to switch from the light bulb to the antenna.
I hope you get your antenna up soon, and have a great Christmas! - Cliff
@@QRPSchool Thank you, I hope so, too.
Speaking of "light bulb" dummy loads, one night the Georgia group was working each other and one of them tuned up on a light bulb. They started to "complain" about inconsiderate novices. The guy tuning up didn't think it mattered, so he made a call. It started a "dummy load" shootout.
It was a hilarious night. I couldn't join, but I had fun listening.
You know, some hams are crazy and I was raised (ham wise,) by these crazy fools, so guess what I am....
God bless 72
I respect your comments and agree with the overall theme. I do feel however you undersold the noise floor variable. In my 40 years on the air my experience is that about 1/3 or more contacts are made right around the noise floor, so an amp would be a difference maker for 1/3 of them. While you did caveat with the noise floor I feel you inferred near absolutes without its frequent impact.
If an operator wants more success, and in a sharply noticeable percentage, he/she will appreciate the amplifier. Can the operator be highly successful without it? Yes. Will he miss many opportunities over time? Also yes.
73 KM5L
Agreed. If the receiving station’s noise floor makes him unable to copy your weak signal, you can either turn up your power OR walk away. I don’t have an amplifier so going past 100 watts isn’t an option. If 100 watts doesn’t cut it, I just figure it wasn’t meant to be. Thanks for your thoughtful comments. -Cliff
Because the signal is dissapated mostly in all directions, (Dipole or onmi) . The station on the other end will only see a fraction of a 4 fold increase in power because only a fraction of it is going to the other station. What about if you're running a yagi with 15 Db gain and 30 degree beamwidth ? in this case it's likely that two thirds or more of that power increase will reach the target. EME guys use a little power for a reason. Btw, i am a fan of QRP . Did alot of it in the 90's .
"Because the signal is dissapated mostly in all directions, (Dipole or onmi) . The station on the other end will only see a fraction of a 4 fold increase in power because only a fraction of it is going to the other station." Nope. Sorry. When you increase your power by a factor of 4 (100 watts vs. 400 watts), the receiving station will record your signal as 1 S-Unit stronger. That's just a fact. And I have tested this on-the-air with a friend on HF, having him double and quadruple his power while I watched the S-Meter on my Flex Radio software. Try it yourself. It's not theoretical, it's real. Thanks - Cliff
@@QRPSchool did you do this test on a dipole and then on a Yagi ?
inverse square law , almost all of it is dissapated in all directions but with a Yagi , at least half or more of it is realized at the receiving end. You did your test on a dipole on HF . You should try it on 144 or 432 thru a high gain Yagi ... and that's why i said the receiving end only sees a fraction of a 4 fold increase in power from your dipole. They don't hear you 4x stronger, they only hear you 1 S unit stronger. That said, 1 S unit is still alot. You seem to be trying to correct me but I think you read my response wrong.
Great video, thanks!
Thumbs up Cliff for a great video and support our QRP actvities ;-) 73, Paul OM0ET
Yes nice =) Glad to see this discussed =) Great content and hope to catch you on the bands Cliff =)
Great video Cliff... Sometimes the truth hurts... Keep up the good work. Keep those videos coming.
Michael VA6XMB
Thank you, Michael. - Cliff
I've also found different results than what mathematics would predict. In different configurations, I've always got 3 to 4 more S points for a 10 times power amplification. S1 with 100w moved up to S4 to 5 with 1000w... S5 with 100w would give S8 to 9 with 1000w. Done with different TRX over 25 years. I perfectly know how the db work, but that's unfortunately not what I've found on the air. I'm still looking for an explanation... And when I'm looking for real experimentation videos that show the S-meter received signal depending on the transmitted power, I find nothing nowhere. A very simple experimentation would be that a handful of ham operators, using different TRX, record their s-meter for 1, 5, 10, 50, 100, 500, 1000 and 1500w transmitted power and starting from s1, s3, s5, s7 and s9, using directionnal antenna if necessary. That would end up any controversy. As of now, I know what to expect from the db charts, and couldn't observe its application on the air.
Some radios have an SWR meter that isn't calibrated properly. However, my Flexradio rig does have a nicely linear meter and I have tested it with a local ham who lives two miles away. I took note of his reading and then had him increase his power as I watched my meter. It was EXACTLY as predicted... quadrupling his power yielded one additional S-Unit. I really wish I'd made a video showing this. I suppose I still could make that video, but something tells me that many hams wouldn't believe it even if they saw it with their own eyes. - Cliff
Excellent video!
Qrp can be fun. I've made contacts from Alaska to Japan on half a watt. That being said, often I need my amp to make a contact. Let's look at it this way, when your signal running 1kw yields say an s4, your qrp signal would not be heard, and the 100w signal would be s3ish which may or may not be heard above the noise. I don't advocate pumping out max legal to chat across the street, but some days the amp is the difference between lines in the log book and static.
I agree with you 100%, Tyler. Thanks for sharing your experience. -Cliff
That is exactly in line with what the gentleman who made the video said.
Nice and well presented congrats Cliff 73
Yeah Cliff we r good lol...very nice video, im in love with qrp as well....but unfortunately noise floor is too high in my area, on 40m its around S9....i ve tried almost everything but unable to reduce it down...dont know noisy neighbors or what....any technique u know to reduce, kindly share it...thanx
My noise floor is pretty bad, too... though, not as bad as yours. I used to have a nice plasma TV that I had to give away because it was causing so much interference. And, when my wife is on the treadmill... forget ham radio. That treadmill motor renders my radios useless. I don't have any advice for you, I'm afraid. :-( -Cliff
@@QRPSchool i guess the only option left is to go out and do portable operation..
You're not implying that more power is going to fix your noise floor. ;)
loctite222ms certainly it will not...when i do dxing i get lots of spots people trying to reply my call, but i couldnt hear them bcoz of high noise floor, its so frustrating
Preach it brother
Another great video with great information, really glad I found you. #Subcribed
Excellent video!!
As always, excellent video. I've never owned an amp and I was first licensed in 1971. Last year I managed to work WAS from my current QTH in about 6 months - at no more than 30 watts to a low inverted L. Low power does work. And I love my KX3 for portable use. You still riding the motorcycle? de ke2sx
Congrats on your low-power success, Gregg. Yes, I'm still riding my motorcycle. I just got the oil changed yesterday and am looking forward to taking it on a QRP outing at some point. Mostly, I'm just hopping on it and escaping work for an hour or so at a time. (I work from home and enjoy getting the heck out of the house!) - Cliff
I always say I'm going to load my QRP gear on the bike for an outing - one of these days I have to actually do it! Ride safe Cliff....
Lookin' and sounding great.
Thanks, Doug. - Cliff
This is why my short 80 mb vertical, which is about 75% efficient, almost works as well as a full size quarter wave.... I honestly can't tell the difference... so a short but relatively efficient monopole antenna for long wavelengths makes sense if a full size antenna becomes unrealistic... especially on 160m.
I used to own a copy of a heathkit sb200 ... brilliant amp and the best bit was ... it kept the shack warm 😂 ihave an FT817 and an Ic 7300 but usually i run no more than 30w ... but my favourite mode is ½ w on WSPR
WSPR is a hoot, Nick. It's amazing what low power can do! - Cliff
As a scientific standard doubling your power increases your signal 3 dB. Also according to the same scientific definitions one s unit equals 6 db. Common math will show that a 5 watt signal versus a 100 watt signal increases the signal approximately 13 db or approximate 2 s units. Yes, not significant on 10m at the peak of SS cycle 19 with a noise level less than S1 and QRP sigs at S9 (given no QRM). However, 2 S units are very significant when the noise level is S3 and the 5 watt signal is near 3.1 S units with QSB. A boost of 2 S units will be very significant. Add another 2 S units with a legal limit amplifier and you will see a 4 S unit difference. Significant.
which turns out to be 8 S units in a modern yeasu radio for example where each S unit is a difference of 3 db, not 6. Unfortunately there’s almost no radio out there where an S unit is 6 db, especially on lower portion of the meter. That’s just iaru recommendation followed by practically no one manufacturer.
@@IZ0MTW Interesting, After working many radio stations running QRP and then turning on their amp as an experiment to 1500 watts (approximate;y 25 db), I have never seen anything more than 4 or 5 S unit rise on my receivers. But yes, it depends how the receiver's metering is calibrated. Thanks for your sharing.
Good points to consider, thanks.
Ahhhh i really enjoyed this one
I had a guy tell me I didn't need a amp to hit the repeater we were on, but I could only hit the repeater with my amp. It was pretty funny.
I agree with this video. However, the extra wattage is not just to have contact. It can be the difference between hearing some one in the mud. And actually being able to have an enjoyable coversation or qso. I tested this out. Often, times running 60 watts will allow the person to understand me clearly. While 11 watts is audible garble. Sure with 5 watts. We might of barely been able exhange names and locations. But it makes sense. If some one can hear you 100% @ 5 watts. Sure 15,000 watts wont make much difference then..
Awesome video. So glad your back. Hoping for more CW stuff. de K0EAP
Great video I really enjoyed it