Taxi Trouble in St. Louis
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- We all have bad days sometimes, right? I sure had one going into St. Louis Lambert International (STL) in the Bonanza a while ago. I bet my taxi from the runway to the FBO did not impress the ground controller. In the spirit of learning, let me replay for you what happened, and see what I could have done better. The bottom line is: making (occasional) mistakes is part of life, but we should seek to learn from them.
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Martin's Bonanza on FlightAware:
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Hi, I am the Ground Controller on frequency at STL in this audio. Hopefully I can help shed some light as to everything that happened here and clear up some confusion. first, the reason Rwy 29 was assigned is because it is faster to sequence you there instead of fighting the string of jet traffic to Rwy 30R. The longer taxi isn't fun, but being vectored out 30 miles to join the string of jets to final is even longer than the taxi. The direction for the turn at Twy D was not specified because with the hold short instruction, there is only 1 way the turn could be. Also, if it helps, if you are ever confused, or are just busy in the cockpit, you can always ask for progressive taxi and we will give you turn by turn to the gate. The reason for the delay at Twy Q was because 30L is our departure runway and with visibility so low, we have to provide separation between departures and the arrivals to the parallel RWY so that takes priority over crossings. The instruction "pass behind traffic left to right", If issued this, it means traffic will cross your path from the left, if you ever see an aircraft already on your right, that's not the one, someone is going to cross your path. The reason we issue these instructions is to help reduce frequency congestion. If We change the instruction to a hold short instruction, we have to issue the new instruction, verify the readback, then re-issue the original instruction and verify the readback again. Adding 4 transmissions takes up frequency time, and at that time, we were pretty busy and frequency control is vital. Even after listening to this, I appreciate the input, it's always good to have a view from the other side, but in reality I can't say there's anything I would do differently if presented with the same situation again. Sorry if it seemed confusing. Also, If you are ever back and want to come to the tower, we would be happy to have ya. Thanks QY
Hi Quinton,
Thank you very much for taking the time to look at the video and to respond here; it is always helpful to understand how things looked from the other side. There is a lot I have learned since I made the video, and as I have mentioned in responses to many other comments, the instructions you gave me were using correct phraseology, and you pronounce your words very clearly when you speak - more so than the average person, I would say. And yet, I was confused - because I wasn't giving my best that day, and because I don't experience a busy environment like STL very often.
I understand that "pass behind" is more efficient than "hold short" in that it eliminates the need for a subsequent transmission to proceed. Would "give way" have the same meaning than "pass behind", or is there a difference?
In trying to analyze where my confusion came from, I think the thought in my head at the time was that I had permission to go to K through the worlds "hold short of K", and then that was changed using different words ("pass behind"), so it didn't quite click in my brain that your second instruction modified the earlier one. I should have known better, of course - I am merely trying to describe how my brain worked at the time.
The main take-away for me from this whole case is that in the future, when I hear "pass behind X at Y", I will try to more or less mechanically turn that into a "give way to somebody at Y", even if maybe I don't see that somebody yet. Stop first, clarify later if needed.
Thank you again, I appreciate your explanation, and your patience with me on that day in St. Louis. :-)
I don't know when I'll be back in the area, but when I do come back, I would be very happy to take you up on your offer for the tower tour.
Best regards,
Martin
@@martinpauly It really wasn't an issue at all. Don't doubt yourself, you did great. I can only speak for myself and partially this facility, but we generally don't use "give way" calls a lot, because whilst some people see them as interchangeable instructions there is a distinctive difference between the two. "pass behind" means you will allow someone to go in front of you, "Give way" can be interpreted as don't block someones path. The difference in that is we have told pilots to "give way" and they kick the throttle to beat someone through an intersection, and the argument is, they didn't block that traffic because they were through that intersection so they "gave way", and technically, they're not wrong. It's more restrictive to issue pass behind. Also, I meant to mention, If ever at an airport where you can exit at an earlier exit, you can always ask if you're not sure, but most places, you can use a reverse highspeed as an exit. They are one way for entry, but you can use it to exit. Hope it helps. QY
@@quintonyoung5327 Have to compliment you sir for taking the time to find this vid and explain your side of how ground operations work at a major airport. Makes for a better learning tool to augment Martin's outstanding vids. It can be rather daunting for low time pilots. Heck, it was daunting to me as a new 121 guy 30+ years ago. Curious how you found this vid
@@jcheck6 A controller friend at STL found it and told me about it.
That's the "Spirit of St. Louis" Martin! Well, I think the controller was delineating, ( well, @ least trying to) which of the S.W. you were to follow. ( and I can almost hear his boss @ the early morning meeting telling all to "keep it short" to the detriment of us all!) Sometimes, as I'm sure you know, we just have to "take it down" and then figure it out later! Thank You! I just can't fly as often as you but it's great you invited me along! I'm a Dbl. Eye and would be proud if you were my former student!
Well, if you would be proud based on THIS flight, then you should see one of my others. I've gone into several of the big airports in the nation and turned it into videos; I think this STL experience was by far my worst performance. Makes me want to double my efforts next time so I can do a much better job.
- Martin
Hi Martin. First let me say that I am very impressed with your videos and my absolute favourite is your LOP video. You especially exhibit a professional pilot demeanor by promoting a culture of safety through analysing your own mistakes and publishing them for the world to learn from. I think it's great. As a current 121 pilot based at SFO I feel compelled to offer my own analysis of the very minor misunderstanding you experienced. First I disagree with your assessment that the controller communication was not clear and that he should have simply had you hold short of the next taxiway intersection (Lima, I think). I think the reason his instruction was clear to me is because my job involves interpreting such communications many times in one day. When he said "pass behind the Southwest left to right, "Left to Right" was the key piece of information that disambiguated the situation. When I watched your video and saw one Southwest 737 already to the right and then heard the controller say "left to right" I knew I should be looking for a Southwest airplane coming from the left. While the controller wasn't incredibly busy he was nonetheless busy dealing with pushbacks and other items on his plate so it lessens his workload to tell you to pass behind the left to right Southwest rather than issue you a hold short instruction and then have to return to you again to tell you to continue your taxi after the 737 passes by. By the way, I would love to fly with you any time and we can go into someplace with complex taxi and I can show you how in the airline environment we go through preparation for each phase of flight including taxi. When you have to fly multiple legs per day into these high workload and demanding places, it really pays off to have very repeatable rote procedures and techniques that you can apply everywhere only with minor tweaks where necessary. Again, thanks for the videos!
Thank you for the detailed response. After re-playing this scene many times in my head, and after reading a lot of feedback on the video today (some of it was very constructive and helpful), I feel better prepared for similar situations. I realize the controller used correct phraseology when he said "pass behind SWA", though at the time my initial confusion got the better of me.
I would be thrilled to take you up on the kind offer to fly (or taxi) together at a complex airport, and see how the pros do it. Now with you being in NorCal and me in the Midwest, I'm not sure how likely that is going to happen anytime soon. But it would be a great learning experience for me, I'm sure.
Thanks again!
- Martin
@@martinpauly I'm often in the Midwest and otherwise just and airline hop away.
I can see how especially for an amateur pilot, it would be ambiguous whether the controller was talking about MARTIN's left and right or the SOUTHWEST's, particularly if the pilot was unable or too busy to "turn the directions around" in his mind to see that he'd be crossing from right to left behind the Southwest.
You were absolutely right to be confused. In the end, no harm, no foul.
Nice job on the video and the audio reconstruction. Yet another good learning opportunity. I really appreciate your humble approach and willingness to share what happened. Having said that, I think you are being a little hard on yourself. An unfamiliar airport, a less than clear controller and you remained safe at all times. I say good job. Reference your comment on switching runways, kudos for staying with the approach you were expecting and had briefed, considering the IMC conditions you were flying in. I'm sure you could have switched if necessary, but it wasn't and the best risk mitigation is risk avoidance!!
Thanks for the feedback, Randy. Yes, despite the trouble on the ground, I believe it was the right decision to not switch to the parallel runway late in the game.
- Martin
Excellent Video Martin as usual. This one was really interesting. I’ve been a pilot since the 80’s and this long taxi, along with the mentioned instructions were a bit confusing for sure. Thank you for sharing and safe skies ! 🇺🇸🛫
Thanks, Randy.
- Martin
Martin Pauly I absolutely love your videos Martin. I learn something from every video I watch. I’ve been flying a long time and try to never stop studying and learning. Videos combine learning with an element of entertainment, which is such a great thing. More pilots should take advantage them. Safe skies and thank you again !
@@randyporter3491 It's the kind of video I was hoping to find before my very first flight to Chicago O'Hare a few years ago. I didn't find anything back then - so I decided to make my own. And the rest is history, as they say. :-)
- Martin
Thank you Martin. Those are the events that help us to be better pilots.
Exactly. I know for sure this experience, reviewing it on video, and discussing it with people here (including air traffic controllers) has helped me learn from it.
Best, Martin
As a retired airline captain, I know that taxiing at a big unfamiliar airport, especially single pilot, can be stressful. I think you did a good job under the circumstances. I'm sure you learned that if something doesn't make logical sense, like clearance to hold before taxiing behind an aircraft that does not seem to be an issue for you- (except MAYBE for jet blast) you should look around for another reason why you were given those instructions. Yes, the controller should have told you which way the Southwest jet was coming from. But to be a good pilot, you need to be ready to compensate for other people's mistakes. In the end, it is your butt that is in the driver's seat. Every flight is a learning opportunity and being open to instruction and review, as you seem to be, is the key. Be glad this did not happen at night with a wet windshield. Good video.
Thanks for the comment. Yes, I learned from the experience, as well as from the many comments I read today in response to the video.
At night, with a wet windshield... that would be a different experience indeed.
Regards, Martin
good learning experience. I'm always nervous about taxiing at complicated airports. I will say, as I am not a big fan of going to bravos just for the hell of it, that it is on YOU to be fully prepared and bring your A game at all times. nothing wrong with asking for clarification. also, IMHO, I'd cut out the thank you's and have a nice day's and it's been a pleasure working with you.....they're not interested in that, they want you off safe and quick, no room for the extra stuff. as much as I like thanking controllers, in the case of bravos or busier places, just read back the instructions and that's it. great vid!
You are probably right about the "thank you" etc. I should try to minimize that.
Thanks, Martin
I work there and used to drive the field every night. Problem for us groundlings (and non-commercial pilots I'd suspect) is we're not immersed in the phraseology day in and day out like ATC and commercial pilots are. Any decrease in talking speed would be immensely appreciated for non-commercial airport users. Also, that Papa / Quebec / 30L intersection gets everyone eventually. Excellent presentation quality!
Hi Jared, you hit the nail on the head. For someone doing this all the time and going to these same large airports over and over, it becomes second nature. It also helps to have a crew trained for two-person operations, where the tasks are clearly divided between the crew members.
(And yes, I don't know what they were thinking then they designed the P / Q area.)
Best regards, Martin
Martin, we've all been there in one way or another. Thanks for having the courage to share with us. We are all better for it.
Very true
License to learn - that's what it's all about.
- Martin
I dont mean to be so off topic but does any of you know a method to log back into an Instagram account..?
I was dumb forgot the account password. I love any tricks you can offer me.
@Yusuf Noah Instablaster ;)
@Micah Jameson i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site through google and Im trying it out now.
Takes quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
Agreed, ATC should have simply stated to hold short. That way you did not have to read his mind for which 737 he was referring👍
Not really. It’s standard for them to say that. He clearly said pass behind Southwest “LEFT to RIGHT at LIMA” that means the southwest getting off the runway at Lima. He’s coming from left on Lima and pass behind him. You need to listen to ATC while having spatial awareness of what’s around you and where you’re going. That’s also why the controller said Bravo instead of right or left because obviously you’re going to make a left to go to the next taxiway as well the FBO is that way too. Right bravo would have sent them back to 29. All this stuff comes with experience. We were all at that point once too.
@@essel23fly That's abit harsh but i partially agree.
MAVERICK 42 it’s really not that big of a deal. In fact they’re very minor things for the pilot. Just saying ATC didn’t do anything wrong, it’s very standard stuff for class B airports.
@@essel23fly like i said i partially agree with your first comment although i found it to be abit harsh.
MAVERICK 42 what did you not agree with? And what part of it was harsh?
love the title picture, often thought hypothetically about flying through the arch....I Fly south from 3MY in Peoria to CPS (St. Louis downtown)....brings me to 1000 ft over the river past the Arch, downtown, left at the ball park into Final 12L or R...10-15 mins crew car ride to the Zoo/downtown. Doing this at sunset is just spectacular. Great reflection video Martin, approach cold have helped the by having you line up for 30R, The Tower and ground could have helped themselves by helping you avoid the hotspots........our controllers are generally amazing in the US, but sometimes we need to help each other out.
Hi Andy, it's been a while (20 years), but I remember landing at CPS and heading over to downtown. Back then, the airport neighborhood had a reputation of being a bit rough - do you know if that is still the case?
Best regards,
Martin
@@martinpauly it is not the most salubrious of locales ..... more barren industrial than south side of Chicago ....but they have a really great (DuPage like) FBO.... and new, fast crew cars with windows and central locking...it really is only a 5 min drive to the river.... less “mad Max” style ;)
If you grabbed the audio from STL Approach on liveatc, that came from my feed, based out of a hangar at SUS. Nice to hear the feed used in this way! Also, next time, may I suggest SUS or CPS? Smaller airports with lower fees that get a lot more GA traffic.
Thank you for doing your part to feed liveatc, Geoffrey. It's a great site.
I am curious, it sounded like the feed mixed two frequencies, maybe from two sectors. Is that what it does?
I've been to SUS, CPS, SET, and 1H0. All great airports. For this one, I wanted (and received) the big airport experience.
Best regards, Martin
@@martinpauly I totally understand that. I'm based out of SUS and flew into STL one morning to pick up a friend who was getting back from ferrying a plane to Florida.
The feed combines all the St Louis approach sectors. I've considered breaking the frequencies out into two feeds but I'm not sure the separate feeds would be active enough to warrant that.
@@geoffeg I understand. Every now and then, there is a desire for a clean, one-frequency-only feed; but I bet normally people listen to liveatc more for entertainment than for research purposes, and then it sure makes sense to combine frequencies.
Thank you again, you are doing a good thing!
- Martin
Geoffrey Gallaway shudda asked for 30R
Martin, very good video! As a controller myself, (I've worked you a couple times, including on your pilots in the plane video) at KMSN, it's always important especially with two of the same aircraft to specify where exactly the hold short should be. I'm big on read backs myself because on ground I look at it as the "first line of defense" in prevention of runway incursions. You did the right thing by questioning the controller and making sure that you were both on the same page! Come visit us in Madison soon!!
Thanks so much for chiming in - it's so helpful to understand the perspective from an air traffic controller.
Do you work both Tower and Approach in Madison? I'm there several times a year, and I ALWAYS get the Eggs Benedict at the Jet Room - I love that place, been going there for 20 years.
All the best, Martin
Hi Martin!
We are a combined facilty or “up/down” so all of us controllers work both in the tower and radar room. Usually I’ll work a stint in the tower, have a break, and then work in the radar room. It’s nice because it keeps it different every time you work a position!
@@CessnaPilot1B9 Thanks - sounds similar to Cedar Rapids, I've visited the Tower here a few times.
Enjoy your weekend!
- Martin
Thanks for sharing Martin. I was looking at the stopped 737 also trying the figure out what the hell he was talking about left to right. Made perfect sense once I saw the other one. Learned a lot Martin thanks. Don't understand your love for big airports and fees but hey to each their own.
It's a bucket list thing, Mike. :-)
- Martin
@@martinpauly I understand.
Martin- i am subscribed and have watched essentially all your videos - and have learned quite a bit from them - your LOP/ROP video was exceptional. I just wanted to thank you for your time and effort.
My pleasure, Bruce - and thank you for the kind words.
Since you mention the LOP video: If you happen to be at Oshkosh this year, I'll give a presentation on LOP on Monday afternoon.
- Martin
You could have edited out mix up at Kilo and we would not have ever known. You show good charter and that is a teaching moment. Thanks.
That was the point, Ted - to show that confusion does happen, that it's not the end of the world, and that I learned something from it.
Regards, Martin
Sounds like the controller is used to talking to commercial pilots. He could have been a bit more accommodating and asked if you were familiar with the field, especially with the low visibility. This could have preemptively avoided any issues. Luckily, Martin is a top notch Bonanza pilot. 👍
Thank you for posting this Martin. A lot to learn from here. If I were you, I would submit a NASA ASRS report. These types of reports help ATC and pilots improve the safety in the future!
Thank you very much for posting this video. This helps remind us (especially yours truly) to always ask if every in doubt.
Thanks for the feedback, T C.
- Martin
@@martinpauly Keep your awesome videos coming🖒
If at first your not sure, let Martin figure it out! LOL Great job and take care.
Thanks, John.
- Martin
Thanks for sharing Martin, that "pass behind Southwest" would have confused me also, especially since you were already cleared to kilo and actually passing behind a southwest jet, just not the one he wanted you to pass behind.
Glad I'm not alone, Paul. Through this experience, the video and the discussion it triggered, I feel better prepared now for similar situations in the future. But at the time I was thoroughly confused.
Best, Martin
If your not used to hearing the left to right or right to left then ya, that can be very confusing. My favorite was I was in a 172 going into IAD and they were super nice controllers. But she goes "go behind the 787 for rwy ## caution wake ..." There was 4 big airplanes in the air. They all looked relatively the same to me. :)
Great Video as always!
I know what you mean. I imagine at times it can be difficult for the controllers to know what we can see and identify from the cockpit, and it's easy to see how sometimes that leads to ambiguity or confusion.
- Martin
It wasn't as bad as I was expecting! You did a good job.
Thanks, Daniel - though I know I can do better...
- Martin
Nice job piecing together the audio! Certainly there were some opportunities for improvement, but it seems like you kept it safe and got clarifications at the right time. Thanks for sharing that difficult taxi. I definitely learned from it.
Thanks. The audio is a mix of my own recording (beginning of the video), Tower and Ground from the FAA through a FOIA request (end), and atclive.net in the middle.
- Martin
Martin Pauly how long did the FOIA request take?
@@thejamer5280 I don't remember exactly, but it took quite a while - maybe two months or so.
- Martin
His clue, though admittedly obscure, was that he referred to the Southwest as “passing left to right at Lima. At the time, the other Southwest on Lima had already crossed your taxiway (Echo) and was positioned to the right of Echo on Lima. Since he’d previously cleared you to Juliet he was probably reluctant to hold you short at Lima and just wanted to slip another airliner across Echo in front of you. So he evidently cleared the second Southwest to cross Echo and by doing so, he had set up a conflict. By instructing you to pass behind the conflicting traffic, he was attempting to cover that mistake. You are exactly right - holding you short of Lima was his best option but he should have done it before clearing you to Juliet and before clearing the second Southwest across Echo.
This is a great video, well done on the recording and displaying of the airport diagram, I learned something new about taxi instructions, well worth watching, thank you!
Thanks for highlighting the map, it makes visualizing the situation easier. Nice video!
Thanks, Robert.
- Martin
$7.42 for 100LL!!! And I thought paying $5.25 at my home airport was bad! Thanks for uploading, very informative.
Yeah, the fuel price at most of these large airports is hard to swallow. I only go there rarely, more for the experience than the convenience.
- Martin
Good video Martin, thank you for including us! Ha, hardest part of flying...is taxiing at a large airport! Plus... think ground was doing all he could to make you feel 'unwelcome'. Ha... good job anyway!
Thanks, Mike - though I don't believe at all that the ground controller was trying to make things difficult to me. He saw things from a different perspective, from a much higher viewpoint, and some of the things which were unclear to me were probably very clear to him. It's a simple misunderstanding - which happens, and we deal with it, and we learn from it, and we move on.
Best regards, Martin
I can see why you were confused. It also didn't help that Southwest is by far the dominant airline at Lambert. They have hundreds of takeoffs and landings a day, so when the controller says _Southwest_ they could be referring to any of about twenty different planes on the ramp, the taxiways, or the runways.
UGH! We had to drive to St.L near Lambert for a funeral yesterday....and was thinking how great it would have been to fly there privately. I saw that Sig looked like the only FBO...and without posted pricing. Sounds like "those guys" were a little overwhelmed. Glad there were no serious mishaps.
You are correct, Signature is the only FBO at STL. Of course, the other area airports have many more choices, and are more affordable.
BTW, FBOs are bad about publicly posting their prices, but they will usually give you a quote by email. So if you are curious, just e-mail them and you should get the info you need.
Best, Martin
It's not like we have more than one SW plane flying out of here. Glad you made it home eventually.
You should of flown into SUS. Not as busy and plenty of hotels and restaurants nearby
or CPS, now a bad choice given the JB Bridge situation causing massive traffic into DT St Louis for hotel purposes (nothing is on the IL side).
Yes, there are many nice airport in the St. Louis area. I've been to SUS, 1H0, CPS, and SET before. But I also like to go to large airports on occasion, as you probably know from my videos, for the experience more than the convenience.
- Martin
@@martinpauly Yes, it is the only way to experience it, is to do it. Good on you.
Martin you handle it just right.
The most difficult part of my job (seriously), I am a current 737 NG Captain Domestic U.S.A., is getting to my seat, getting the jet off the gate and then to the assigned departure runway. The 2nd most difficult part of my job is after clearing the runway taxiing to the arrival gate; the "flying stuff" is usually straightforward. Airport taxi processes are fraught with potential problems. Ground operations are a high threat environment: unfamiliarity, inclement weather, nighttime, notams, uncontrolled often unpredictable airport surface traffic (catering trucks, baggage tugs and carts, contractors etc) , poor signage, traffic congestion, hardworking fast talking sometimes inpatient (JFK, BOS, ORD, LAX,SFO and others) ATC the list goes on and on. We’ve all been there.
As a risk mitigation strategy, If you know you are going to Signature and where that FBO (Fixed Base Operator) is located on the airport, do yourself a favor and ask for the closest runway 30R in this case, rather than letting ATC send you to the furthest runway from where you want to end up.
You're the pilot in command (PIC) and going into St. Louis. St. Louis is landing 30s/29. Tell approach you want 30R, don't wait for them to assign you a runway. Worst thing is they say “NO”.
Good pointers - thank you.
- Martin
The controller did attempt to distinguish which southwest aircraft when he said "left to right", however he should have preceded it with "moving from your". It was as if he was saying that you should pass left to right, which made no sense. Still I agree holding short for crossing traffic would have been a clearer bit of instruction.
The controller said all the right things, just so abbreviated that at the time it didn't make sense to me immediately. It didn't help that the other 737 was just rolling out on the runway and wasn't very visible yet.
- Martin
Excellent video as always. I get more anxious about taxiing at large airports than the actual flight into them and their airspace.
Agreed - many consider that to be the most stressful part of operating at a large airport (myself included).
Regards, Martin
Martin, two things. Why did you not request 30R to save all the confusion taxiing to the FBO? Also, it's not expedient to bid controllers good day. Break the habit. They couldn't care less and they get tired of hearing it. Thanks for your work with the videos. I really enjoy them.
So a St. Louis controller had previously commented here that 30R that day had a constant string or arriving jets, and with the low ceilings it would have been very hard to work me into these arrivals. Having said that, ATC offered me one of the 30s eventually - but very late, I was programmed and briefed for 29 and did not want to rush things in this kind of weather.
I always learn a lot from your videos. Thanks for another good one Martin!
Thanks, Evan.
- Martin
And I came here thinking you had a problem getting a taxi from the airport to downtown. Anyhow, thanks for posting. Love your videos...
No, the ground transportation from the airport into town was completely trouble-free. :-)
- Martin
If you don't mind, as a retired air force and airline pilot of + 35 years, the most important thing is NEVER ASSUME anything, that is a door to trouble. As one of my airline instructors said to me, if you assume it only makes an ASS out of U and ME. If you are not sure of anything, ASK. The controller is there for you and not you for them. Next, don't be shy about filing NASA reports about anything you feel uncomfortable about.
Thanks for this video. STL is my home airport, very close to where I live. It was great to see you around this airport.
Glad you liked it, Glen.
- Martin
You did allright sir. Jusr a liittle lack. Of experience .behind a left to right traffic means « give place » in that case, even you don’t see this 737. The ground controller is good ,loud and clear. . I can tell you, as a foreign airline pilot, that it can be a stressful mess in overloaded airports like JFK,BOS,ATL or ORD... and we all make mistakes.
I agree, the ground controller here was speaking very clearly. That helped.
- Martin
Lots my friends fly into spirit of St. Louis in Chesterfield. Great airport and not as congested.
Superbly done video!
I really enjoyed the ride.
It's been over fifty years since I flew in & out of Lambert. (Cessna 172). AvGas price is unbelievable.
.
Thank you, Charles.
Yes, the price of AvGas is high. Do you recall what it was 50 years ago? And at the time, did it seem expensive to go to a large airport like STL, like it does today compared to smaller fields?
- Martin
Thanks for the lesson! Your videos are ALWAYS instructive as well as super interesting!
Thanks, Jim - glad you enjoyed it.
- Martin
That was some serious taxiing. Almost as confusing as JFK. Great job maintaining your situational awareness.
George, when I went to JFK it seemed much easier. It was basically a right turn off the runway, and then just taxi in a straight line until reaching the FBO. Not the many turns I had to do here in STL.
Regards, Martin
I think you did really well and kept your cool. Your much braver than I to go in a B airport. So hats off to ya. BTW...I think you tube has your subscribers incorrect. It's missing a ZERO plus a few........IMHO :)
Thanks, Bob.
And yes, I'd love to have more subscribers - it's what keeps us content creators going. Spread the word and share the videos with your friends if you'd like to help - much appreciated.
Best, Martin
Thanks again Mr Pauley listening to ground with diagrams and highlighting makes more sense listening to instructions at busier airports I'm learning to fly into
Regards Steve
This is not a normal situation at an airport. I'm not a pilot, but you acted right. That was irritating for me. I have tracked most of your flights.
well done .
Good luck, too
First, very nice job on the cross country taxi. Second, someone below thought the controller was being a little tough. I failed to hear any exasperation on his part. If he was annoyed you would still be holding a Kilo today. I did find it strange that ground was giving the clearance for the runway crossing. At KMSP we switched from GND to TWR for Runway crossing clearance, unless it was a runway like 4-22 that wasn't being used. Once on the other side of the runway we would switch back to Ground. Seems like a lot of work, but who best to call your crossing than the controller in charge of that runway.
You are right, at many large airports Tower owns the runways and issues crossing instructions. But I've seen it done both ways.
Regards, Martin
Hi Martin! As usual, your analysis is spot on. (And as usual, good decisions: e.g. choosing to land at KSTL, and not continue home that day.) However, the interchange didn't really seem to be that bad, after the Controller's ambiguous/confusing (I agree) instruction. I thought you handled it just fine. OTH, I'm sitting in the comfort of my home, watching this on my laptop... : ]
Thanks for the feedback. While I was indeed confused by the way the controller gave me the instructions, I must admit he used proper phraseology, and he was also speaking very clearly. I learned from it.
Best, Martin
@@martinpauly Yes. I'm impressed by the way you handle these Class Bravo airports with "ease". (You're becoming quite a vet.) I'm also impressed that you're getting to all these comments & responding. : )
@@Cousin. Needless to say, I HAD to respond to this one. :-)
Some of the comments are encouraging, others I learn from, a few are ... well ... it's probably best to skip over them. But I do like the interaction with people here on UA-cam - so different from TV.
- Martin
You did exactly what I would have done. Who’s left to right ? Confusing
Like others have mentioned, next time try KSUS across town, we stopped there in a Piper Lance for fuel last week on our way to Iowa From Atlanta (KPDK). Great customer service and fuel prices at Aero Charter Jet Center also easy in and out.
No question, KSUS is more practical and cheaper. But that wasn't the point - I wanted to go to KSTL at least once, as a bucket list item.
- Martin
Martin, wonderful video and thank you for sharing your experiences with all of us... these videos help to make all of us better pilots. Hat's off to your for sharing your experiences, good and bad. (though nothing was bad!!)
With that though in mind I will share my observation, not on your experience, but on airport choices as a whole.
Having been an airline pilot for one the the big 3, I realize we all have access to all airports. I also realize some airports cater to airlines and others to private aviation. Wether you care to admit it or not, having experienced both, they are extremely different worlds, No matter what anyone says!
I am a firm believer that private aviation should avoid the "major airports" there is a distinctly different mentality and communication that exits at these airports.
I don't fly above FL180 in my light twin for a reason, it's a whole new speed world up there, and I don't need to, nor care to, bog down the Class B airports for that same reason.
I now fly a light twin piston aircraft and appreciate that airports like St. Louis Downtown and St. Charles exist... to cater to our needs!!!
I think you did great do the situation there's I listened to it twice and I'm still Confused
Very instructive video again! Thanks for your effort to compile this for us! Really appreciated. Take care.
Thank you.
- Martin
You are a brave man flying into St. Louis.. I agree controller’s commands were sort of confusing. Lot better airports in the same vicinity... btw I am a pilot.
Understand the learning experience and passing it on is valuable. Why in the world though KSTL when nearby KSUS (Spirit) would have caused no headache? ILS and RNAV (GPS) from both directions for its primary runway.
You are right, many more convenient choices were available nearby. It's a bucket list item - I want to land at all Class Bravo airports in the lower 48.
- Martin
Spot on. ATC rules but clear come vital. Glad you kept clear and calm
Ace stuff. Agree that ATC caused the confusion. I would have continued taxiing assuming they were referring to first southwest. Yeah I agree the larger airports charge $$$ for avgas. BTW great job single pilot into major airport. Most GA pilots avoid and those who go in do so at midnight.
Strangely, I like the large airports - not for the fees, of course, but it's an interesting challenge.
- Martin
Agree 100%
That ATC Controller sounds like he's having "a bad day". Seems to be treating zero-tango-bravo as a "fly in the ointment". And Martin didn't even curse. :)
I don't curse much, and saw no reason to do so at the time. :-)
(Quite different from my Lakeland arrival experience.)
Best, Martin
@@ryanthomas2472 Agreed, I did not have the impression that the controller was impatient. And he spoke very clearly on the radio; not everybody does.
Good Job Martin! From a fellow BTer.
Thank you, fellow BeechTalker!
- Martin
Great job Martin.
Thanks, Roy.
- Martin
It's ATC's error: he should've updated the command and issued a new hold-short due to the second Southwest, which you couldn't even see.
Hi Scott, I think calling it an ATC error is too harsh. Sure, telling me to "hold short of Lima" would have made my life easier, but he did use correct phraseology - it was just hard for me to understand it at the time.
Sometimes it's not so much about being right or wrong, but just about understanding how the other person sees a situation.
Best, Martin
@@martinpauly I see, ok. I'm just an armchair pilot so whadda I know? Seemed a bit muddled, however. You were scoping out the intersection considering the previous instruction, and then another 737 shows up! Wacky. At least you had plenty of time to correct. I wish XPlane11 would
get more realistic and busy ground traffic and ATC so I can learn all that a bit better.
Even FSX had ATC telling you to hold short for ground traffic and such.
This is why I avoid big airports. Long confusing taxi, big fees, big fuel costs. Thanks for reaffirming my decision.
Well done sir, hope my radio skills as as smooth as yours one day !
I agree with your comment about pass behind North West. Even if the controller had changed his mind he should just have updated his instructions by saying "Hold at ? allow North West from your left to cross left to right then ?" But I think I would have been confused a lot earlier than you were. I would have been fine until the first time you had to stop and look at the chart. Strange airport and unclear instructions! I would have been sitting there requesting a a guide! Oh gee, I would have looked a proper wally! I would have been asking for clarification all the time! He should have told you to hold short for traffic crossing.
Keep them coming ...lovely Vids thx Martin 👍
Thanks! :-)
- Martin
Well I'm a retired Airline pilot and I think you did a great job. If he would've told you what Southwest to pass behind that would've made it easier. But since the other Southwest wasn't a factor then I would assume there's another Southwest he's talking about. All in all he did a great job.
Yes, one of the lessons I learned is if at first the instructions don't make sense, look around and see if I missed something somewhere else.
By the way, your UA-cam username is perfect for a retiree! :-)
Regards, Martin
Nice one Martin
That was very confusing for me, can't imagine how you felt. Good job all considered.
Thank you, Robert.
- Martin
Just a couple of days ago, while on the way to work, I was wondering if you'd ever come to St. Louis again! Aaaand i missed it again lol
Well, this was last fall. No trips to St. Louis currently planned at this time, but I'm sure I'll be back sometime.
Regards, Martin
Another excellent video. I always review my flight videos and see what can be done better or improve upon my procedures. Thanks for sharing.
My taxi izzy dizzy drill
The controllers are human and we have to remember that but sometimes if they just thought before they spoke. ;) I had landed in Nantucket for the Christmas stroll, it was very busy. With taxi diagram on my knee board I knew where I was going to park, along with everyone else, in the grass. One problem, ground had me turn the opposite direction then make a few 180's as he figured out his left from his right. My friends that landed after me were told to just follow me. It was funny after the fact, not while doing donuts on the taxiway. :)
These things make for great stories later, don't they? :-)
- Martin
I would avoid STL with a light GA aircraft. There are 5 or 6 other airports withing 25nm that have far less traffic, have ILS approaches and will be less expensive fees and fuel while getting you into some interesting Eastern MO communities and experience far less stress. Washington, Spirit of St Louis (south county), St Charles and even further north to Troy. Try some of the others, Martin when you are in the area next time and have more fun than bad ole Lambert Field. Cheers!!
You are correct, Andrew. And I've been to SUS, 1H0, CPS, and SET before - all more convenient and cheaper. But one of my goals in life is to land at all the Class Bravo airports in the lower 48, so this seemed like a good opportunity.
- Martin
@@martinpauly nice to get that out of your system! Keep flying safely, Martin!
I get all this. Wow! You know what is said about hindsight. Landing on rw6, esp. considering the wind, appears would've been simplier as arvls were on rw30R which doesn't touch 6/24. Dept could have been held on rw30L and rw29. Simple rh exit on taxi F and done. I wonder if "suggestions" for taxi routes can be made to a GC (like asking ATC, while airborne, to deviate around wx). Might be a stretch but just wondering.
Yes, landing on 6 or on 30R would have put me much closer to the FBO.
- Martin
That was great that you were able to get the ATC recording since your's failed here. It's a great landing to record but would not have been as informative without the ATC instructions, to see how you got crossed up by the instructions.
Exactly. I couldn't have reconstructed this in any meaningful way without the ATC audio.
Regards, Martin
Eeeh, this is the kinda stuff that makes me avoid large airports, my head was spinning. Thanks for sharing, it has helped me to learn. I would have had to asked for a progressive lol, which would have really got them unpleased with me. Well handled!
@@davidbeppler3032 No such thing as a stupid question in the search for knowledge.
A Progressive is where you get ground control to follow you, turn by turn holding your hand, to your destination.
Takes time for the controller to watch only you and they don't appreciate that.
@@jtthill5475 Thanks. I recently got let go by an airline (COVID-19) and now I know people there do not like to do their jobs. lol
Man you make it sound easy... I'd love to learn to fly some day
I hope you can make that dream come true!
All the best,
Martin
great. This inspired me to get my license .
Martin, just curious, did you try to coordinate with approach on landing on the closest runway used for arrivals? It sounded like 30L was in use per the ATIS. Maybe that would help, to communicate in advance as possible? I’m not a fan of international airports, but you did well and the controller was sort of patient...I’m sure theres worse! Thanks for sharing!
Great question. In fairness to ATC, they did offer to switch me to one of the 30s, but that offer came very late and I was all set up and briefed for the ILS to 29. Given the weather (solid IMC), I felt at the time continuing the approach to 30 was the lesser evil. With the audio recorder missing part of the flight, I was not able to reconstruct that part of the exchange with the approach controller.
Regards, Martin
I was thinking the same thing. We landed a 310 up there last year and they were very helpful, but we didn't really think 30 was an option until we were taxiing the 600 miles from 29 to Signature. Ground said we should say something next time to get the closer runway. Luckily for us, our taxi was much less eventful than yours. Except when we left a few days later, our engine quit just as we were turning onto taxiway Foxtrot!!! Great video as always Martin!
@@clr4tkoff1 You had an engine failure at STL, Mike? I am curious how that worked out in the end. Did the FBO tow you to their hangar, and were they able to get you going again? That kind of thing is bad enough at a small airport, let alone a Class Bravo.
@@martinpauly it worked out fine. Learning moment, but that motor needed more attention than I gave it at that moment. It would quit at idle on the ground before it was warm, but run fine once it got all the juices flowing. So we told ground we were working an issue, restarted (fired right up), warmed it up for a while, did a run up and moved on. It was a good thing nobody else was leaving Signature at the time though!
Martin Pauly, thanks for the quick response. Given the further information, it makes more sense. It’s easy for us flying a computer/ iPad screen to say what we “would” have done. Being in the mix single pilot into Bravo is enough work.
Keep the videos coming!!
Wow that was super confusing instruction
It sure was difficult to see the second Southwest on the left. I thought as I watched, when he said Southwest ..left to right, I was LOOKING left for another one!
Yes, Steve, that was a big contributor to my confusion. One of the lessons learned is: if an instruction like this one doesn't make sense at first glance, look around and see if I missed something. At any rate, I feel better prepared now that I've studied this scenario through the video.
Best, Martin
You may have to file a flight plan to taxi at that airport! :)
Talk about stressful!
Just as well you can read minds eh? 😉
Another great video. Thanks for sharing
Thanks, Curt. Glad you liked it.
- Martin
You were smart to be cautious. It is entirely the controller's fault to give instructions relating to "a southwest" flight if there are two anywhere in the same airport. It is not incumbent upon you to determine something that is most likely known by the controller. It could have been disastrous.
Great video! Thanks for sharing.
Ok, two points. First, you didn't need to confirm which direction to turn onto Delta. If you know your position and where the FBO is, that's obvious. Also, there would be no way to hold short of 24 on Delta turning left. As far as the Southwest goes, he did say to follow Southwest "left to right", that would have eliminated the 737 already off to your right. As to why he didn't just give you a hold short clearance instead, by telling you to give way, he (presumably) would only have to speak to you once. Otherwise, he'd have to tell you to hold short, then reclear you to taxi. He was just being efficient.
You are correct, James - his instructions were very efficient. They were also "by the book", i.e. correct. The purpose of the video was not to put blame on the controller, but to show - as a learning experience - what happened when I was not on top of my game, and hopefully help other pilots deal with situations like this one.
Regards, Martin
@@martinpauly Understood. And I hope my comment didn't come across as snarky. I've been flying now for over 30 years, and I remember my first forays into airports like LaGuardia and Kennedy. Very busy and confusing.
You need to remember that at airports where Southwest operates, everyone…I mean EVERYONE… plays second fiddle to Southwest.
Interesting! Thanks for sharing !
Yes the controller should have specified the position of the traffic especially since there were two Southwest aircraft. Assuming you saw both aircraft and were unsure which one they were referring to, then you should ask which Southwest? The one on your right on Lima or the one turning onto Lima on your left. Anytime you are unsure of an instruction or traffic to follow, you should ask ATC to clarify
1. The demeanor of this controller was elevated -- not as calm and clear as normal.
2. Yes, he was ambiguous.
3. Noting to self to avoid major airports...when a nearby ILS is available (guessing it wasn't in this case).
John, I don't want to bash the controller. He was using correct phraseology, and he was speaking very clearly (easy to understand). From where he was, up high in the tower, the situation probably didn't look as ambiguous.
That's where I hope videos like this ones, and the discussion they prompt, will help all of us to get a better appreciation of the different points of views, so that we can all work together effectively.
- Martin
@@martinpauly You didn't bash him. I listened to him and made my own call. I do appreciate the learning moment, understand your POV, and add to it mine: From high up in the tower, the controller sees everything more clearly but wasn't giving correspondingly clear directions. I don't condemn him, but recognize the note of elevated anxiety in his voice. He seemed to be operating near or beyond his personal capacity, like a pilot who's behind he workload of his airplane. Your experience, quick thinking, and team effort with him helped avoid mishap. Sometimes controllers save pilots from disaster, sometimes pilots save themselves in spite of the controller. This was an early lesson is my pilot training: The PIC is solely responsible for the ship, which casts no shadow upon controllers.
Stressfu,l but badly stated by ATC,needs to be clarified better,I know they are under pressure but so are you ! excellent appraisal Martin I always learn a lot from your experiences and thank you for the work that you put into these videos.
I helped build those runways as a concrete inspector/surveyor
Very nice! Do you remember when runway 29 was built? I seem to remember 29 wasn't in the original layout, but I don't recall how far back that was.
Regards, Martin
@@martinpauly it was completed in 2006.
Strange language. “Give way to the SW traffic coming from your left would be better and I’ve heard that more than pass behind - at least in my neck of the woods. Good learning - you can’t relax until you pull the mixture and turn off the master !!
Robert, that is exactly how I feel about the wordings. I know both are correct terminology, but somehow my brain can process "give way to" better than "pass behind". In a busy environment, these little things can make a difference. On the other hand, I really don't want to put blame on the controller - he used correct phraseology and probably could not see how difficult the second 737 was to see for me.
Best regards, Martin
you did what i was hoping you would do perfect radio skills if unsure stop the aircraft and ask
i was looking at that southwest as well and was like your gonna pass right to left behind him
this was confusing to me as well a " 70TB hold short of lima for boeing 737 left to right" would have been better did u file a nasa report on this as it seems ripe for what it was made for. identifying issues before they become problems
and as for not being ready u said words that many never say before they end up the reason of a runway incursion
"say again" your radio work is top notch
happy flying and many visual approaches
I don't think my radio work was "top notch" here. I know I can do better, and I usually DO better. This just wasn't my best day.
- Martin
Another great video Martin! Just curious, since you had a tailwind on 29, were you prepping for a circling approach if the ceilings allowed or were you always figuring on 29?
Although I guess a class B wouldn't approve a circling approach? Too busy.
No, Pat. The tailwind (three knots, I think) was so light that it was not a consideration.
Regards, Martin