Wow! All the I told you so comments. Give Keith credit, donated work, no short time line, (why rush) Having worked both metal and wood machines, there is no comparison. The original machines were cutting fresh castings with fresh machines, with engineered tooling. My bet goes with Keith getting the job done! You do what you can with what you have, when you succeed more power to you. Thanks Keith Love this project and the videos.
Exactly the Engeneering Co. that origionaly made this would have had the wharewithall to make any specialised tooling to make this as they were probibly turning out hundreds of them.
Well, i watched you struggle to disassemble this beast. Then I watched Adam struggle. Now you’re struggling.Wow! Who knew a 100 year old casting could give y’all such fits. I appreciate your perseverance.
Keith on the side of that machine there is a handle for the horizontal spindle. It says "left", "right", and "neutral". Put that handle in the "neutral" position and then engage the spindle. The spindle will not turn, but yet all of the feeds will work when using the vertical spindle. Less wear and tear on the horizontal spindle.
Keith: make a new extension shaft for the insert cutter you already have, but with 2" diameter. Cut a relief groove where you need it to clear the front lip on the casting. This create a much stiffer extension, albeit with stress concentration at the relief groove. I don't think strength will be a problem is you take it easy on the cuts. Good luck!
When things don't go so well we have a tendency to edit out some of the most interesting footage. Thank you for sharing this, cant wait to see the finished job.
That machine brings back a lot of memories. Second shift at the Boeing Co. in Macon Ga. in the machine shop. We had several of those and did a LOT of work with them. Heck even the rapid travel and the hydraulics sound the same... Thanks Keith!
If you had access to horizontal borer, you could have clamped down to bed on parrallels up against a dialed in angle plate. Then use cutters adapted to quill to machine up verticle journals. Great vids Keith, love em.
I have no idea what you are doing. But I keep watching aĺ your videos. Other than hammering few nails around the house I never ever done anything. But I like these types of work. And you haven't explained how the original one was done back old days when there's no such precision mechanisms. Anyway thank you for sharing.
Keith, with that spindly first cutter/end mill, could you have operated it like pocket milling, coming straight down to a pre-selected depth, bringing the cutter back up, traversing the part, and the coming back down to the same depth? That way the bulk of the metal removal is done with the shaft in compression rather than in bending moment.
Most likely a vertical mill with a cutter that would do the job. Remember, this is a piece of railroad equipment, most of that stuff is very specialized along with the equipment used to manufacture and maintain it.
At least you've figured out a way of cutting this that you can prove will work. Seems with the spray welding you'd need 1 or 2 people just dedicated to keeping the casting heated while one person does the welding.
For those wondering the locomotive that this engine is to be used on is in the reassembly phase, so keith should be getting back around to this project soon
He said in the other video that doing this horizontally would be less rigid. Doing it vertically means the cutting forces are going down against the table instead of some kind of clamped angle blocks or whatever.
@@kindabluejazz "Less rigid" depends on the size of your angle plate. A big enough plate or block would result in it being plenty rigid mounted vertically. But the tool head is plenty rigid here, the problem is having to use a stupid-long small shaft on the tool. It would be the same problem on an HBM.
Greetings from Australia Keith. Where did this restoration get up to? Is it still going? I don't watch all the videos, I just kinda follow the playlists and the videos that take my interest randomly.
Hi Keith, It's been over a year now, and I was wondering about the progress of the Stoker Engine. That I can see, this is the last video that you posted. Is this project on hold for some reason, or will you be getting back to this project sometime in the near future?
If it's possible, perhaps you could increase the diameter of the round bar supporting the insert cutter. Stiffness is to the forth power of the diameter. In other words, if the present diameter is 1", increasing it to 1.5" will make the long bar about 5 times stiffer (1.5^4=5.0625). That may reduce chatter. Also, shortening the bar as much as possible will help. The stiffness of the bar is a cube function of the length. Shortening the bar by 10% will make the bar about 30% stiffer.
Hi Kieth, for your set-up on the front faces would a ground square, mounted on its side, provide you with a better horizontal (y) and vertical (z) reference rather than the faces with the grooves you encountered in the original. I'm thinking of one of your 12" ground squares or maybe one from Fireball. Much like you used the parallel on the slide faces for the horizontal (x) reference. I hope I've got my x,y&z correctly oriented. Otherwise thanks for the video. Regards from Canada's banana belt.🤞🇨🇦👍
@@jeffdayman8183 Keith did the spraywelding with Lance baltzy, abom79 tried to machine it with the shaper but it was to tight on his shaper. The milling marks are factory as kieth explained in the video when he was making the extension for the cutter
Keith, I am a long-time subscriber to your channel and have been watching and learning from some excellent engineering over time. With this in mind I have a suggestion for you that would provide excellent content for your channel as well as a few other mechanical engineering channels. So far I have seen you repair parts for countless old and antique machines over the years and I was wondering how it would be if, instead of just repairing an older machine, you sourced the raw materials then fabricated and machined the parts and finally assembled and built a completely new machine in the old style? This could be done over many videos in collaboration with other channels like Abom79, Windy Hill foundry, et al. I think this would take a lot of work and a lot of communication between everyone, but I believe it would definitely be do-able, and a fantastic achievement. Let me know what you think or if an idea like this has been floated before. Cheers.
Yeah, but figure that the machines used were even beefier than what he's using now. There's a limit at which point a flycut doesn't work anymore if the machine can't support it. It goes into harmonics far faster and you get really buggered cuts. You can do the same with a small machine, by giving it a much bigger cutter than it was meant to take. THAT, is why, when you get an old machine, getting the tooling it used to use all its life is worth the weight in gold. You don't have to figure out all the specs, someone already did for you.
He was saying that by indicating one plane the plane 90 degrees that one would also be true. That’s actually quite ridiculous of him to assume everything is square enough to be true one another.
Please show the drawing on the next video (completed machining) so all can see what dimensions and tolerances are required. A transparent template of maximum spindle/cutter/1/32 clearance may help those not understanding setups and equipment appreciate the successful effort. Was an inspection report created after disassembly and cleaning? Time taken early can ease set-up averaging by zeroing on a known.
As I have previously writing, considering the nature of the linkage that requires these cross head journals, the length of the journals actual travel is dependent upon the travel of the piston rods and the crankshaft rods needed to permit the pistons to not bottom outsgai st the casting while still permitting the crankshaft to be fully rotated in their offsets. For the era of the manufacture of this engine, it would not be something of mass manufacture and the journals could actually be longer than the necessary length of travel. While I understand that you wish to return the journals to their original finished length, you may still have some acceptable tolerances.
Very interesting, I would be somewhat concerned about the cut through areas of the thin spray weld flaking off with use. Well if it doesn't work out you could always mill it deeper and add a bronze insert on the floor and sides if necessary. Bet you could even Turcite the thing once its milled flat. Would want to verify Turcite's temp or moisture characteristics first. The cross slide is quite long and as plenty of bearing even without the last bit you can't reach. Just die grind and hand scrape the last bit.
I was surprised that a radial arm drill that size would only go down to 100 rpm. I have only used a couple in my working life, but as I recall they would go down to 20 or 30 rpm.
If all else fails, you could cut all but the front half inch with the machine, and then do the last half inch by hand with a mill file. It would be a fiddly pain, but cast iron files nicely, and for a half inch you can just glide the file on the milled surface and make the end match. If it flares a half thou or so it is no big deal, the slide isn't going to apply enough pressure there to rock.
So do the cross-heads run off the cylinder end of the newly machined ways? If the area that you can't quite reach due to tool holder diameter does not carry any thrust, why not just ramp it down with a grinder? You also might have a little more reach if you use a fly cutter set just shy of the width of the channel. Areas where the spray weld didn't cover completely will just hold oil.
The problem is not the size of the machine, it's the rigidity trade-off between the length and diameter of the arbor/cutter. Any sized machine will still have that same constraint. He just needs to get the right arbor/cutter and this machine will be fine.
@@kindabluejazz oh, definitely. If his own machine had enough reach he could have done it on that. But here the thinn shaft for the tool was the weakest link in the chain. Wonder it it would work better with a smaller cutter on the end
Nice job Sir, glad you got it almost done. Is there a possibility to cut off some of the engine wall to fit the arbor? Then just weld the piece back and mill the gasket surface.
Why y'all think the spay weld didn't stick in those particular areas???? I'm positive that y'all preheated correctly... but y'all think maybe had some oil r something got impregnated in the Cast-iron and not allowing a good bound???? Anyway nice to see someone is getting somewhere on the stoker engine..... good luck there Mr.rucker I'm sure that you will get it done and get it done correctly....
Keith, I'm pretty sure you could have done this milling on your machines. You have just the same issues to overcome at JT's as you would in your own shop.
Mill crosshead channels/carbide tipped face mill whose diameter is same as channel width. Extension arbor diameter same as cutter diameter for maximum rigidity.
Keith, you've spent the last year plus rebuilding a machine that is perfectly capable of doing this job. I would bet it was originally done on a planer. Your planer is plenty rigid and can use tooling that is rigid enough for the reach needed. I'm sure the top surface was fly cut as the witness marks show but that doesn't mean every operation used the same tooling.
Would it be possible to weld up and turn to size a boss on the first cutter that Keith made that would then fit into the extended reach holder? The holder gives rigidity due to it's size and the wider cutter can get into the end bits. Seems (to me) the chatter is just to the lack of thickness and the long length.
Might be a dumb question, but is there a reason you can't use this setup and tilt the head 15 deg or so towards the obscured end? I know it's not ideal on the cutter, but seems like it'd be "good enough"?
Glad it is getting done. Seems like the spray welding did not fill in all the pits at the end. Can you braze over the spray welding to fill in these few remaining pits? Bronze should make a decent sliding surface. Thank you
I'm watching this two years later. What happened to this project.
Always a treat to see another episode in the stoker engine saga :-)
Wow! All the I told you so comments. Give Keith credit, donated work, no short time line, (why rush) Having worked both metal and wood machines, there is no comparison. The original machines were cutting fresh castings with fresh machines, with engineered tooling. My bet goes with Keith getting the job done! You do what you can with what you have, when you succeed more power to you. Thanks Keith Love this project and the videos.
Exactly the Engeneering Co. that origionaly made this would have had the wharewithall to make any specialised tooling to make this as they were probibly turning out hundreds of them.
One day you'll discover some old documentation that says they cut the original slot with a belt sander or something :)
Well, i watched you struggle to disassemble this beast. Then I watched Adam struggle. Now you’re struggling.Wow! Who knew a 100 year old casting could give y’all such fits. I appreciate your perseverance.
Great attitude Keith. Enjoyed that.
Slow and easy, great job Keith.
Keith on the side of that machine there is a handle for the horizontal spindle. It says "left", "right", and "neutral". Put that handle in the "neutral" position and then engage the spindle. The spindle will not turn, but yet all of the feeds will work when using the vertical spindle. Less wear and tear on the horizontal spindle.
Keith: make a new extension shaft for the insert cutter you already have, but with 2" diameter. Cut a relief groove where you need it to clear the front lip on the casting. This create a much stiffer extension, albeit with stress concentration at the relief groove. I don't think strength will be a problem is you take it easy on the cuts. Good luck!
And only use 1 insert, like a small fly cutter. That will go slower but just maybe....
When things don't go so well we have a tendency to edit out some of the most interesting footage. Thank you for sharing this, cant wait to see the finished job.
Thanks for sharing! Keep at it, you're almost there.
That machine brings back a lot of memories. Second shift at the Boeing Co. in Macon Ga. in the machine shop. We had several of those and did a LOT of work with them. Heck even the rapid travel and the hydraulics sound the same... Thanks Keith!
Has the stoker engine project been completed?
If you had access to horizontal borer, you could have clamped down to bed on parrallels up against a dialed in angle plate. Then use cutters adapted to quill to machine up verticle journals. Great vids Keith, love em.
Thanks for sharing Keith 🦘🇦🇺👍
Happy trails. Be safe. Hope all goes well giving away the bride.
SO GLAD to see progress on this project! Keep up the good work Keith!
I have no idea what you are doing. But I keep watching aĺ your videos. Other than hammering few nails around the house I never ever done anything. But I like these types of work. And you haven't explained how the original one was done back old days when there's no such precision mechanisms. Anyway thank you for sharing.
Stoked to see the stoker!
Did this project die, or are there other videos located elsewhere?
Congratulations to your Daughter.
Sometimes you’ve just got to try. Great perseverance Keith. Really enjoying these videos
good luck and safe journey
hope everything goes perfectly for your daughter on her big day!
best wishes
Loving this series. But this is your second part 15 in it. :)
Great work
John Terry seems to be a top bloke always very helpful to a lot of guys. :-)
Keith, with that spindly first cutter/end mill, could you have operated it like pocket milling, coming straight down to a pre-selected depth, bringing the cutter back up, traversing the part, and the coming back down to the same depth? That way the bulk of the metal removal is done with the shaft in compression rather than in bending moment.
I am sure this will be one of those F- bomb jobs, You will get it done keep on digging.
We've had A-bomb, now we've got F-bomb, but what happened to the B, C, D and E-bombs? 😁
@@BedsitBob They are all in there, all the sides are parallel. LOL
GREAT START, GREAT JOB, GREAT VIDEO, SEE YOU NEXT TIME...
Thank you for sharing. Enjoyed.
I was waiting for this episode
Ah man, I was rooting for that long mill extension thing you made.
I thought you'd abandoned this project, glad to see you didn't.
Did he ever get this running
Would be nice to know what tooling they used originally to do this job. Perhaps a boring bar with a cutter like in my back facing video?
Most likely a vertical mill with a cutter that would do the job. Remember, this is a piece of railroad equipment, most of that stuff is very specialized along with the equipment used to manufacture and maintain it.
At least you've figured out a way of cutting this that you can prove will work. Seems with the spray welding you'd need 1 or 2 people just dedicated to keeping the casting heated while one person does the welding.
Thanks for sharing🙏
Thanks for the video.
The rule of 90%:
The first 90% of the work takes 90% of the time.
The last 10% of the work takes the other 90% of the time.
What about the last 20% of the time??
How very true and typical that is! :)
Preach...
@@andrewstoll4548 Morning and afternoon tea?
Excellent Never give up I know you can !!!!!!!
Keep going Keith! Its always better to try something out and realise it didnt work, than doing nothing^^
For those wondering the locomotive that this engine is to be used on is in the reassembly phase, so keith should be getting back around to this project soon
Jeez Louise, giving you a hard time this stoker engine. Can't wait to see the end result
MUCH FUN, thanks, always makes me wonder how it was dont in the days of steam power everything. Along with how did someone make the first machine.
Keith - Brian Block's HBM may be a better option ;) Much more rigid machine, even with extended tools.
Watch the older episode where he machines that fixture plate,he explains why this is a better option.
@@alphadog6970 I did watch it and he explains how HIS HBM would not be a good choice.
@@RedneckIrishman oh ok it must have been some other episode probably when he visited brian last time
He said in the other video that doing this horizontally would be less rigid. Doing it vertically means the cutting forces are going down against the table instead of some kind of clamped angle blocks or whatever.
@@kindabluejazz "Less rigid" depends on the size of your angle plate. A big enough plate or block would result in it being plenty rigid mounted vertically. But the tool head is plenty rigid here, the problem is having to use a stupid-long small shaft on the tool. It would be the same problem on an HBM.
Fly cutter !
Greetings from Australia Keith. Where did this restoration get up to? Is it still going? I don't watch all the videos, I just kinda follow the playlists and the videos that take my interest randomly.
I would love to know what machine and such they used originally to so this job.
Hiya Keith
Hi Keith, It's been over a year now, and I was wondering about the progress of the Stoker Engine. That I can see, this is the last video that you posted. Is this project on hold for some reason, or will you be getting back to this project sometime in the near future?
You can't beat trial and error.👍
Once the job is complete and it's fully reassembled, are you planning on showing a test run on compressed air and setting the timing and such?
If it's possible, perhaps you could increase the diameter of the round bar supporting the insert cutter. Stiffness is to the forth power of the diameter. In other words, if the present diameter is 1", increasing it to 1.5" will make the long bar about 5 times stiffer (1.5^4=5.0625). That may reduce chatter. Also, shortening the bar as much as possible will help. The stiffness of the bar is a cube function of the length. Shortening the bar by 10% will make the bar about 30% stiffer.
I made this comment before watching the entire video. You obviously did the correct thing. Sorry.
There is always plan x,y,z... good job👍👍👍
Hi Kieth, for your set-up on the front faces would a ground square, mounted on its side, provide you with a better horizontal (y) and vertical (z) reference rather than the faces with the grooves you encountered in the original. I'm thinking of one of your 12" ground squares or maybe one from Fireball. Much like you used the parallel on the slide faces for the horizontal (x) reference.
I hope I've got my x,y&z correctly oriented.
Otherwise thanks for the video.
Regards from Canada's banana belt.🤞🇨🇦👍
It begs the question how did they mill the original casting, thanks for the update Keith.
@@jeffdayman8183 considering the mill marks on the raised areas they probably did mill it.
@@jeffdayman8183 Keith did the spraywelding with Lance baltzy, abom79 tried to machine it with the shaper but it was to tight on his shaper.
The milling marks are factory as kieth explained in the video when he was making the extension for the cutter
Mark’s look like it was fly cut
Looks like the bottom and the top was done with a fly cutter and sides with an end mill .
I would LOVE to know how they machined this originally
Keith, I am a long-time subscriber to your channel and have been watching and learning from some excellent engineering over time. With this in mind I have a suggestion for you that would provide excellent content for your channel as well as a few other mechanical engineering channels. So far I have seen you repair parts for countless old and antique machines over the years and I was wondering how it would be if, instead of just repairing an older machine, you sourced the raw materials then fabricated and machined the parts and finally assembled and built a completely new machine in the old style? This could be done over many videos in collaboration with other channels like Abom79, Windy Hill foundry, et al. I think this would take a lot of work and a lot of communication between everyone, but I believe it would definitely be do-able, and a fantastic achievement. Let me know what you think or if an idea like this has been floated before. Cheers.
I'm pretty sure it would have been fly cut when it was made. A hefty shaft for a single tooth cutter would have been very easy to make!
Yeah, but figure that the machines used were even beefier than what he's using now. There's a limit at which point a flycut doesn't work anymore if the machine can't support it. It goes into harmonics far faster and you get really buggered cuts. You can do the same with a small machine, by giving it a much bigger cutter than it was meant to take.
THAT, is why, when you get an old machine, getting the tooling it used to use all its life is worth the weight in gold. You don't have to figure out all the specs, someone already did for you.
@@aserta Not sure what your talking about!
A fly cutter won't help. A fly cutter requires more clearance than any of the other options, and the original problem is limited clearance.
@@fredygump5578 Sorry mate it doesn't require more clearance!
Can't say I comprehend KR's two planes at once explanation.
He was saying that by indicating one plane the plane 90 degrees that one would also be true. That’s actually quite ridiculous of him to assume everything is square enough to be true one another.
Please show the drawing on the next video (completed machining) so all can see what dimensions and tolerances are required. A transparent template of maximum spindle/cutter/1/32 clearance may help those not understanding setups and equipment appreciate the successful effort.
Was an inspection report created after disassembly and cleaning? Time taken early can ease set-up averaging by zeroing on a known.
As I have previously writing, considering the nature of the linkage that requires these cross head journals, the length of the journals actual travel is dependent upon the travel of the piston rods and the crankshaft rods needed to permit the pistons to not bottom outsgai st the casting while still permitting the crankshaft to be fully rotated in their offsets.
For the era of the manufacture of this engine, it would not be something of mass manufacture and the journals could actually be longer than the necessary length of travel. While I understand that you wish to return the journals to their original finished length, you may still have some acceptable tolerances.
You will get it. I'm patient! :-)
Very interesting, I would be somewhat concerned about the cut through areas of the thin spray weld flaking off with use. Well if it doesn't work out you could always mill it deeper and add a bronze insert on the floor and sides if necessary. Bet you could even Turcite the thing once its milled flat. Would want to verify Turcite's temp or moisture characteristics first. The cross slide is quite long and as plenty of bearing even without the last bit you can't reach. Just die grind and hand scrape the last bit.
Make a bushing to put the carbide endmill in the deep holder.
Nice!!
Hey thinking out side the box! Mount it on the Carleton, drill use a end mill lower the quill and feed in /out with the arm ?
Hi Keith, considering the time to find an alternative, could you manually scrape the stoker engine bed?
I was surprised that a radial arm drill that size would only go down to 100 rpm. I have only used a couple in my working life, but as I recall they would go down to 20 or 30 rpm.
did this stoker engine ever get finished?
When all else fails you will have to get your hand scraping tools and scrape it true!
Regards from Redruth
Arnold
hi keith, when is the next installment?
Any updates on this thing ?
Good morning from SE Louisiana 25 Jun 21.
You can't do that with a shaper?
I'd be tempted to relieve the interfering flange a bit if that allowed me to machine to the end of the ways.
If all else fails, you could cut all but the front half inch with the machine, and then do the last half inch by hand with a mill file. It would be a fiddly pain, but cast iron files nicely, and for a half inch you can just glide the file on the milled surface and make the end match. If it flares a half thou or so it is no big deal, the slide isn't going to apply enough pressure there to rock.
Frustrating? Yes, but at least some progress on the Stoker Keith. Carry on.
Do you think that they may have used a fly cutter originally?
Could you not put your insert cutter up in that extended end mill holder and just make it way shorter?
Having a plan that works, is 75% of the job. 😉😉👍👍
So do the cross-heads run off the cylinder end of the newly machined ways? If the area that you can't quite reach due to tool holder diameter does not carry any thrust, why not just ramp it down with a grinder? You also might have a little more reach if you use a fly cutter set just shy of the width of the channel. Areas where the spray weld didn't cover completely will just hold oil.
Jason at Fireball Tools has an even bigger Cincinnati mill ...
It's not about the size, it's about how you use it :D
But yeah, that thing is impressive
The problem is not the size of the machine, it's the rigidity trade-off between the length and diameter of the arbor/cutter. Any sized machine will still have that same constraint. He just needs to get the right arbor/cutter and this machine will be fine.
@@kindabluejazz oh, definitely. If his own machine had enough reach he could have done it on that. But here the thinn shaft for the tool was the weakest link in the chain. Wonder it it would work better with a smaller cutter on the end
Boy, I really thought your insert end mill set up was going to work. Oh well!
How much longer till this thing is done
Progress.... at last! 😁
Nice job Sir, glad you got it almost done. Is there a possibility to cut off some of the engine wall to fit the arbor? Then just weld the piece back and mill the gasket surface.
And there is a stair! Can we have a tour? Please.
Has any progress been made on the stoker engine?
You could always try removing all but one insert on the carbide tool to reduce cutting forces.
Ref. Odds & Ends 126:
Provide end mill extention for available end mill and existing spindle driver.
Why y'all think the spay weld didn't stick
in those particular areas???? I'm positive that y'all preheated correctly...
but y'all think maybe had some oil
r something got impregnated in the
Cast-iron and not allowing a good
bound???? Anyway nice to see someone is getting somewhere
on the stoker engine..... good luck there Mr.rucker I'm sure that you will get it done and get it done correctly....
What ever happened to the completion of this project?
Keith, I'm pretty sure you could have done this milling on your machines. You have just the same issues to overcome at JT's as you would in your own shop.
Mill crosshead channels/carbide tipped face mill whose diameter is same as channel width. Extension arbor diameter same as cutter diameter for maximum rigidity.
Hi Keith is it possible to recut the mill bottom end
Persevere
Keith, you've spent the last year plus rebuilding a machine that is perfectly capable of doing this job. I would bet it was originally done on a planer. Your planer is plenty rigid and can use tooling that is rigid enough for the reach needed. I'm sure the top surface was fly cut as the witness marks show but that doesn't mean every operation used the same tooling.
Would it be possible to weld up and turn to size a boss on the first cutter that Keith made that would then fit into the extended reach holder? The holder gives rigidity due to it's size and the wider cutter can get into the end bits. Seems (to me) the chatter is just to the lack of thickness and the long length.
Might be a dumb question, but is there a reason you can't use this setup and tilt the head 15 deg or so towards the obscured end? I know it's not ideal on the cutter, but seems like it'd be "good enough"?
Glad it is getting done. Seems like the spray welding did not fill in all the pits at the end. Can you braze over the spray welding to fill in these few remaining pits? Bronze should make a decent sliding surface. Thank you