With NOS tubes, it depends on the tube and the circuit it's going in. Electro-harmonix are good for amplification. They are neutral and don't color the sound. Other tubes are good for defining the sound of the source - phono preamps or cd's. This how you can control the musicality or warmth of the sound.
Very nice reply. I'm sure there are others with even more experience than myself, but I've been playing with tubes for about 25 years and IMO, I feel that average NOS tubes of yesteryear (like most GE and Sylvania tubes) compare well to the best tubes of today. The best tubes of yesteryear (like the Holland Amperex 12AX7 or Siemens 12AU7) are better than just about everything available today. The caveat here is that there is no best tube for all types of gear and listener. For example, some may love Mullards, but I'm not much of a fan. Also, there is the occasional current production tube that is good enough for me to not want to pay the crazy prices NOS is fetching (one of those is the Sovtek 12AX7LPS.) Unfortunately, the only way to know with certainty if you will like a tube is to hear it in your own gear (which goes for both current production and NOS.) I would also add that most tube swaps produce subtle rather than dramatic changes. It's unlikely, for example, that if you don't like a certain piece of kit that a tube swap will change your opinion (unless the tubes happen to be worn or defective.)
Wise words Paul. Whatever beliefs, colour of the skin or ever land we are from, we should all except each other’s differences and get along. Those that hold prejudices in the heart are the real losers
That first comment brought up a new philosophical quote to my mind. We all want strong friends, but if we can't have many strong friends, then we want weak enemies.
I was tube rolling with modern tubes of 6sn7, all the best recommended. Each one was unique yet I always felt I was missing something. Almost sold my preamp and speakers. Then one day I got a quad set of 1942 Ken Rads 7193 tubes and my goodness it was as if all the best parts of the other tubes got rolled(no pun intented) into one. It was not even close. Yea a little pricey but also so is a good modern 6sn7. But it felt like every record I owned I was hearing it for the first time on vinyl. And yes I'm one of those who seeks out the best version of a pressing and the country etc. But the single best improvement was trying NOS. Couple words of advice, look for other models of tubes that work like mine takes 2 6sn7, but an adapter and i can run four 7193 and they are cheaper. Also NOS are going away fast which means today is the cheapest they'll ever be again and that's true tomorrow and the next day. So if you have the itch try them. Valves and more is a great company out of Canada run by a father and son and they do videos on yt as well I couldn't recommend them high enough, they are truly one of the last mom and pops that do this with the same passion as us. Hope this helps anyone still considering
This experience isn't audio but does show the difference in tubes. I used a Heathkit linear amplifier years ago and had trouble getting good stability with new tubes, I went through several pairs. Finally I found a pair from the OEM (Cetec I think) that were in good shape and used them for several years with no trouble. I think that over the years the tubes were improved but the old equipment was designed for the old specs and wasn't happy with the new stuff. Anyway, that is my .05 worth. (I am in Canada we don't have pennies anymore so now I have to put in my nickel's worth.)
A friend of mine is a technician who refurbishes studio equipment and he love real NOS tubes but he has the equipment and knowledge on how to test them.
Speaking of vinyl, for 10 years or more, I had looking for a full uncut version of a song from a Nez Zealand/Australian Rock group called Dragon and the song is called Rain. I figured the uncut version would be on the album called Body and the Beat, so I ordered the album on vinyl. Unfortunately I ordered a UK pressing and to my disappointment, the uncut version was not on the album. A few years go past and this was only about a month ago, I found an Australian pressing of the album in a record store in the Adelaide CBD. I listened to the album in the shop, and surely enough the uncut version of the song was on that pressing. Needless to say I was absolutely stoked!!! Unfortunately now I have two versions of the same album. Just goes to show that pressings of different origins is important!
Paul, I read 99% True in two days. Reading it was like riding a wood roller coaster without a safety harness. Holy smokes did you have some brushes with trouble! Great read, highly recommend your book.
I have often wondered how much your electricity bill is per month in the factory??? Lots of gear and lights seem to be left on doing nothing all the time..
Tubes can be interesting sonically. I've had both good and not-so-good experiences with them. They are ALL microphonic (don't try to tell me Yours Aren't, even with "dampers" on them!), though of course some are less so than others. The best tube will Always make more hiss than even some ordinary transistors will (of course, circuit topology makes this a variable factor). But here's the real kicker: a truly good tube amplifier and a truly good solid-state amplifier should be absolutely indistinguishable from each other in a proper A/B comparison. By that I Do Not mean that such a goal is guaranteed to be achieveable --- only that it is the ultimate objective. An unmodified Harman/Kardon A500 I no longer have (lost in a storage problem) made such an impression on someone that he wanted me to duplicate its phono preamp for him, but I didn't know how to make a proper power supply for it. I still have cassettes I copied from records with that unit, and they Definitely sound good, but they don't really sound Better to me than the ones I have made using other phono stages. I do believe that older American and European tubes sound better than any made today. Overall quality plays a Huge part in that.
On a related note, I got a question for yall: I am planning to refurbish a Fisher kx 200. I'm definitely not a true audiophile, but I do like good sound, tubes, and old stuff in general. Also, I am on the fence matching them with elac debut2 and Klipsch rp 600. Any input on tubes and speaker matches? my background with tubes is in guitar and bass amps. In 90% of applications, I found little difference between JJ s and far more expensive brands.
ok first make a choice about speakers ,take your fisher to the store ,one set of speakers will sound better(both are nice i can't predict your taste but ide probably go with the horns). than give it a listen at home. is something missing or too much? tubes can fix some of that :ge for balance and clarity ,brimar or rca for warmth mullard for smoothness and lowmid. example: since bookshelves always lack some bass impact ide try late 60's mullards with the klipsch. many people get in the hype of nos without really addressing their tone problems or personal taste also swapping without a tester is a little strange since you are really changing the output and the tone at the same time without knowing.but if you get tubes to try from the same seller with gain values than you don't need a tester.it's very similar to swapping pickups on an electric or bass guitar the output is one thing the tone is another. tube rolling is done from the first preamp tube and on to the power section one tube at a time.if you don't like any of the tubes youve tried on v1 you can't go to v2.
5 років тому
Yes they are when they are not broken. All day long...and they've been all the rage for 40 years, you kind of give the impression it's a new trend in your rhetoric Paul. I've been selling Mullards and other gems I take out of broken vintage equipment for years and selling them on ebay, worldwide for 20 years. The demand is never lackluster and bids are always healthy when you have the good stuff.
It was strange to heard that NOS tubes are "almost as good as" new Russian or Chinese production. Yes, mass production with NOS elements is almost impossible, but NOS Tungsol or Mullard and Electroharmonix (JJ, Golden something, etc) different like a Day and Night, and PS Audio knows about it for sure...
I would say different. So it is up to what You like. I tried several different tubes in my preamp. NOS and new ones, right now I am using JJ Electronic, and think they are as good as the Mullard Nos I hade in it. Downside of the Mullards was the where very microfonic . Pick up everything , but sound was good. So I would say , try different new ones, then buy more vinyls .
nos tubes are more quiet than any modern tube (with the same output) they have a lower noise floor and it can be measured. jj tubes are mellow sounding which is nice for modern amps the problem is that they don't have enough gain to match the specs. if a tube like jj would have been made in the mullard factory it would have been rejected as too weak. min nos value is higher than todays standard. if you are after low noise the military versions of american tubes are really good but the mullard 10m is the holy grail.
I'm guessing that the Russian tunes are electro-harmonix. The only reason I know is because they had an ad for their tubes in the box for the bass chorus pedal I bought.
I only have one experience with NOS tubes. Yes they're absolutely worth it, at least in that one experience. I switched from jj to NOS mullard for my 12at7's and was very pleasantly surprised at the improvement.
james robinson Personally I prefer a cleaner signal without the distortion from tubes being added. Yes, a tube amp can clip a signal better (soft clipping with even harmonics) at the spikes than a poorly designed transistor amp, but who wants a poorly designed transistor amp anyway? DSPs can make better sounding tube distortion than tubes can ever do btw.
james robinson The point is that paying lots for tubes is making no sense if your aim is to preserve the audio as it was recorded maximally. Transistors can do better.
One caveat: buying tubes on line from someplace like ebay is a pretty risky proposition. Of course they are going to tell you their tubes are the best, but my experiences have been pretty bad in general. I buy from our friend Kevin Deal instead. Every one of his tubes is burned in and tested, and they are not that expensive unless you want to go crazy.
As someone who grew up in the age of tubes; the question should really be are ANY tubes worth it? And don't forget the matched pairs for push-pull amplifiers.
Frankly, they are pretty wrong. In today's time where q Solid State amp can elegantly swipe away an equivalent top of the line tube amp, the only reason tubes feel good is because of the elitism it offers.
Aaron Mathias ... you are mistaken. Firstly, different people have very different preference to sound. I for one don’t think highly of the LS50, that is me. I prefer the Harbeth P3ESR. Many have raved about the LS50. I can understand why. I have a tube preamp. Upgrading from a simple TungSol to EH Gold pins already make a significant difference. Those are not NOS tubes. Just your average good tube that’s not costly. Also, SS is good, no doubt about it. I have the Audia Flight FLS 10 but when I run it in power amp mode with my Cary Audio SLP-5 the sound is so different. I prefer that.
@@hushpuppykl I definitely agree with your premise that different people prefer different sound signatures. I have a Yamaha B2 power amp that sings beautifully to this day with my Yamaha A-S2000 serving as a pre-amp and feeding to a pair of Wharfedale Dentons. Using select tracks from Blood, Sweat & Tears as reference, my friend & I compared my system to his pure valve system of the Luxman SQ N-150. The thing I realised is it is about music preferences as much as the tone signature. My friend is all about classical and Jazz. And I must say it sounded beautiful. BUT... The moment we switched over to fast paced Rock, Pop, even to Blood, Sweat, Tears.... Well, we both unanimously prefered my setup. I guess different strokes for different folks...
Aaron Mathias ... a Yamaha AS2000 as a preamp? Hehehe ... I’m using an Audia Flight FLS10 as a power amp to the Cary Audio SLP-5. All sorts in life eh? 😂
@@hushpuppykl Your combo sounds extremely tantalising. Unfortunately in Bombay, not many dealers are around with demo units of Cary/Audia. What speakers are you using? What is the audio signature like?
NOS are worth it they sound much better than new production tubes and they are made to a higher standard . it's measurable sonic wise and they last much longer. a number of high end audio and guitar amp makers use nos tubes in critical positions of their best gear. you just have to know what you are going for. if you are going for a british sound than no russian or chinease tube can give you that midrange warmth and bass extension like a 1960's mullard ,brimars are also nice less bass but even warmer. if you want an american sound than ge are sweet and rca are more nasty in a nice way.in the cleaner regions of the best nos you also have telefunken and amperex but in my experience i'm happy with mullard or ge most of the time for any amp stereo or guitar because i like their sound. in comparison the modern tubes sound harsh empty and lack air. dear paul if you are referring to 12ax7 those gold lion you mentioned i dare you to replace even only v1 to a ge jan 12ax7wa 1970's 90$ for clarity and sweetness or to a mullard i61 or i63 to feel some bass which will make you smile if you are after good sound. i think a lot of people are doing this tube thing wrong than they say nos is a waste. first thing is to know how much gain you like in any gain stage in your amp and selecting a tube that's strong enough second is to evaluate the sound signiture and saying something like i need more bass less midrange for example and than you can tweak the amps tone to your needs by putting the right tube. it's pure audiophilia to tube roll . gear that's made today and uses tubes isn't cheap. but still you use bad chinese ussian made components because you have no choice the good stuff is long gone it doesnt mean that the consumers can't get nos tubes on ebay and make your amp sound better. nos are superior try and you shall hear!
'NOS' can be amazing, but the time, effort and expense to find one that actually is unused or nearly new can be considerable. Loads of cowboys on Ebay that list valves as NOS and price accordingly, but when you receive and install them, they sound anything but, because they've had a hammering previously. Potential benefits are great, but it's a heartbreaking and potentially expensive minefield.
try "nib" less shady more pricey no more bad surprises...also buying from stores is much safer .on ebay if it's too good to be true it's either used or not exactly the brand/model it says it is(ei instead of telefunken matsuhita instead of mullard ,not really a matched set) some sellers i trust are the tube king and langrex .
Tubes are a fickle thing, I literally I have two sets of general electric tubes, same factory in canada, same basically everything, one set has the same printing (unbranded but its GE) as the other and the other set the printing on the glass is different but they are a matched pair (GE branding on both). the unbranded one is to my ears nearly solid state like with a touch of what makes tubes, tubes while the branded set is a touch warmer and tubey, really the highs are brought down maybe a decibel or two but not three and the bass is maybe brought up just about the same. Doesn't sound like a lot but it's enough to make the highs sound not shrill and the lower end fill in and add in the saturation in dynamics that tubes do and it's nice. Maybe not as nice as a amperex bugle boy or even gold lions but at
That and the fact that I like a bit too much bass is why I've stayed with SS amps, though I would like to try one of the Dynaco PAS 4's, as I hear they match well with SS amps.
I've had tubes which worked just as new for about 10-12 years. Others needed replacing after a couple of years. I have a friend who has had the same tubes in his preamp for over 20 years.
@@danabunner487 That is the way I figured it was. When I was a little boy my father took me to a drug or hardware store where they had a tube testing machine and replacements. I got my amp/preamp in 1992. It hasn't needed any maintenance except for the lights in the meters burning out. I replaced them but they burned out again. I left them that way because they don't effect the sound.
paul likes the sound of fresh tubes so he's swapping every year not a bad idea with modern tubes reliability wise ,soundwise i prefer broken in tubes less bright and harsh .i'm using nos so i don't have to bother till i hear a problem(a few thousand hours.paid 500$ for a tube tester so i can make sure which is weak). paul is showing irrational behaviour about tubes because he is basically a very good guy and feels partly guilty telling us that genalex(russian made) are as good as nos which is 99% bullshit and 1% marketing. so all those amazing amps from the 60's and 70's like audio research,conrad johnson fisher and dynaco used bad parts and now china and russia are making better parts?
@@beslemeto Yep. I use them on the FX-AUDIO TUBE-01J line amp. Please note though that the TUBE-01J is a much better sounding device than the cheaper non-J version.
Tubes, light bulbs in your gear Those easy bake ovens for kids, had light bulbs for a heat source, could cook a brownie with those things. Just saying.
And you don't use JJ electronic tubes, have you tried them Paul Manley lab use JJ electronics. Probably the best tubes are KR audio based in the Czech Republic, how come you don't use them? they sell them as balanced pairs. Their fairly priced KR audio p130 pre-amp with phono stage is probably one of the best in the world at any price point. You should try one with your power amps interesting to know what it sounds like have you?
No they are absolutely not worth it. Any perceived sound of tubes is an additive effect that can be done even better, if you are into additive audio effects, with a modern DSP operating on 32bit resolution. Personally I prefer a cleaner signal without tube effects.
Yeah yeah, whatever. The food in the UK still sucks... freakin jellied eel. On a separate note, your uploads on your youtube page are quite nice. I will look over them in more detail when I get a chance.
@@terrywho22 Jellied eels ... Yuck 😝 😂 I think that's an old London cockney thing. Actually I love the American accent, which like I said is 99% true 😉 Thanks for checking my films out. Its an expensive hobby ... I know lots of people in the music industry, so it's nice to make films with some of my friends. My UA-cam page is rather dated since I use Vimeo most of the time. 🎥🎬 ... 🎼🎵🎶
@@terrywho22 An American criticising the food of another country? I'm just sorting through correspondence from my deceased best friend while he was traveling through the USA 20 years ago. Every second letter/postcard lamented what passes for food in the USA (food-like substances) and how much he was looking forward to returning to Tasmania (paradise!). When Alan Gussow visited my home in the late 1980s he declared the vegetable soup I prepared from freshly harvested real food the best fast food he'd ever tasted. Kentucky Fried Chicken? Finger lickin's OK provided you don't put the fucking stuff in your mouth. MacDonalds? Essential eating if you enjoy the delights of having a MacDonalds shit.
@@ProjectOverseer "I think that's an old London cockney thing" Back in the 1960s my parents sold packets of prawns, cockles, whelks, and tubs of jellied eels in pubs around Nuneaton and Bedworth on Friday and Saturday nights. Breakfast kippers for mitigating the hangover the following day even. I have fond memories of eating what hadn't sold when I was a lad :-)
It is necessary to buy expensive NOS tubes only if they are already tested and selected by parameters. In another case, you can find them even for free. NOS tubes sound a little different, but sometimes less reliable. All this fussing with NOS tubes only makes sense if you want to get that very vintage sound.
or if you want to get the best sound! it's exactly like using a transistor with lower noise floor in a transistor amp.they are superior everybody that's serious about audio in the last century knows it. about nos being unreliable ...compared to what? they last more than 10000 hours
Have to second what he says about new production Genalex Gold Lion tubes. I own about a dozen of them, across four different types of tubes and they have been very good. They stand up well to New Old Stock tubes, I'd say better than most of them.
"genalex gold lion" was a famous british valve company in the 50's those tubes you talk about(sovteks because they are made at the sovtek factory in russia) have nothing to do with the original company not the same tooling not the same procedures not the same materials not the same country....not even remotely similar soundwise. eh/ genalex tubes are not bad sounding they sound mediocre flat lifeless and a little harsh compared to the real thing. i always ask people that protect their crappy chinese/russian tubes-why don't you get the whole amp from china? why buy a hi end american made 6000$ preamp like the bhk and put a bad component in it? the truth is (as some more honest amp makers revealed ): though everybody that knows anything about tubes (including the late bascom king ;nelson pass;ernie nidell ,paul reed smith and tube experts in the hifi and guitar amp world ) knows that nos tubes (hi end british american german and holland made mainly 1940-1975 ) are superior to the modern tubes-this is without getting into the best military medical or industrial versions those will just destroy any modern crap and run circles around it before breakfast ,as amp makers they don't have a choice since they can't get big supplies of nos these days . as a customer you can get whatever you want you don't need big quantities. .the ifi audio itube costs 300$ and has a nos american made ge military grade tube, the ps bhk is 6k and uses russian genalex(40$ each replace once a year without testing because paul says so ...)the peachtree grand integrated was 4500$ and used 2 chinese tubes(20$ total) -some care about sound quality some don't. paul is very clever: first he states that he is" no expert" than he says things that will make his mentors ashamed of him. all that just not to admit" i am using the best component that is available to me now and it's not the best ever made". if he would want his rich customers to have the best sound quality he would encourage them to try the best nos tubes.some things like a lower noise floor less microphonics or more depth you just can't bullshit about (as long as you have ears).
This is 99% half truth. Do not listen to this egocentric audio snob. There is absolutely no doubt that NOS tubes are much better. It is like day and night. They do pretty much as high-end cables do, improve the sound. He compares e.g. Amperex tubes with some s× Electroharmonix tubes. What a disgrace! I unsubscribe
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With NOS tubes, it depends on the tube and the circuit it's going in. Electro-harmonix are good for amplification. They are neutral and don't color the sound. Other tubes are good for defining the sound of the source - phono preamps or cd's. This how you can control the musicality or warmth of the sound.
Very nice reply. I'm sure there are others with even more experience than myself, but I've been playing with tubes for about 25 years and IMO, I feel that average NOS tubes of yesteryear (like most GE and Sylvania tubes) compare well to the best tubes of today. The best tubes of yesteryear (like the Holland Amperex 12AX7 or Siemens 12AU7) are better than just about everything available today. The caveat here is that there is no best tube for all types of gear and listener. For example, some may love Mullards, but I'm not much of a fan. Also, there is the occasional current production tube that is good enough for me to not want to pay the crazy prices NOS is fetching (one of those is the Sovtek 12AX7LPS.) Unfortunately, the only way to know with certainty if you will like a tube is to hear it in your own gear (which goes for both current production and NOS.) I would also add that most tube swaps produce subtle rather than dramatic changes. It's unlikely, for example, that if you don't like a certain piece of kit that a tube swap will change your opinion (unless the tubes happen to be worn or defective.)
Wise words Paul. Whatever beliefs, colour of the skin or ever land we are from, we should all except each other’s differences and get along. Those that hold prejudices in the heart are the real losers
At the risk of being pounced on by valve fans, isn't this really a question of "which particular distortion do I prefer?"
Yawn
@@keithmoran8004 And, sure enough...
@@thisisnev BUT IT MEASURE BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
I've found that, if one is moderately skilled at glassworking, changing the vacuum can do wonders.
That first comment brought up a new philosophical quote to my mind. We all want strong friends, but if we can't have many strong friends, then we want weak enemies.
I was tube rolling with modern tubes of 6sn7, all the best recommended. Each one was unique yet I always felt I was missing something. Almost sold my preamp and speakers. Then one day I got a quad set of 1942 Ken Rads 7193 tubes and my goodness it was as if all the best parts of the other tubes got rolled(no pun intented) into one. It was not even close. Yea a little pricey but also so is a good modern 6sn7. But it felt like every record I owned I was hearing it for the first time on vinyl. And yes I'm one of those who seeks out the best version of a pressing and the country etc. But the single best improvement was trying NOS. Couple words of advice, look for other models of tubes that work like mine takes 2 6sn7, but an adapter and i can run four 7193 and they are cheaper. Also NOS are going away fast which means today is the cheapest they'll ever be again and that's true tomorrow and the next day. So if you have the itch try them. Valves and more is a great company out of Canada run by a father and son and they do videos on yt as well I couldn't recommend them high enough, they are truly one of the last mom and pops that do this with the same passion as us. Hope this helps anyone still considering
This experience isn't audio but does show the difference in tubes. I used a Heathkit linear amplifier years ago and had trouble getting good stability with new tubes, I went through several pairs. Finally I found a pair from the OEM (Cetec I think) that were in good shape and used them for several years with no trouble. I think that over the years the tubes were improved but the old equipment was designed for the old specs and wasn't happy with the new stuff. Anyway, that is my .05 worth. (I am in Canada we don't have pennies anymore so now I have to put in my nickel's worth.)
A friend of mine is a technician who refurbishes studio equipment and he love real NOS tubes but he has the equipment and knowledge on how to test them.
Speaking of vinyl, for 10 years or more, I had looking for a full uncut version of a song from a Nez Zealand/Australian Rock group called Dragon and the song is called Rain. I figured the uncut version would be on the album called Body and the Beat, so I ordered the album on vinyl. Unfortunately I ordered a UK pressing and to my disappointment, the uncut version was not on the album. A few years go past and this was only about a month ago, I found an Australian pressing of the album in a record store in the Adelaide CBD. I listened to the album in the shop, and surely enough the uncut version of the song was on that pressing. Needless to say I was absolutely stoked!!! Unfortunately now I have two versions of the same album. Just goes to show that pressings of different origins is important!
Paul, I read 99% True in two days. Reading it was like riding a wood roller coaster without a safety harness. Holy smokes did you have some brushes with trouble! Great read, highly recommend your book.
I have often wondered how much your electricity bill is per month in the factory??? Lots of gear and lights seem to be left on doing nothing all the time..
Tubes can be interesting sonically. I've had both good and not-so-good experiences with them.
They are ALL microphonic (don't try to tell me Yours Aren't, even with "dampers" on them!),
though of course some are less so than others.
The best tube will Always make more hiss than even some ordinary transistors will
(of course, circuit topology makes this a variable factor).
But here's the real kicker: a truly good tube amplifier and a truly good solid-state amplifier
should be absolutely indistinguishable from each other in a proper A/B comparison.
By that I Do Not mean that such a goal is guaranteed to be achieveable --- only that it is the ultimate objective.
An unmodified Harman/Kardon A500 I no longer have (lost in a storage problem) made such an impression on someone
that he wanted me to duplicate its phono preamp for him, but I didn't know how to make a proper power supply for it.
I still have cassettes I copied from records with that unit, and they Definitely sound good,
but they don't really sound Better to me than the ones I have made using other phono stages.
I do believe that older American and European tubes sound better than any made today.
Overall quality plays a Huge part in that.
On a related note, I got a question for yall:
I am planning to refurbish a Fisher kx 200. I'm definitely not a true audiophile, but I do like good sound, tubes, and old stuff in general. Also, I am on the fence matching them with elac debut2 and Klipsch rp 600.
Any input on tubes and speaker matches?
my background with tubes is in guitar and bass amps. In 90% of applications, I found little difference between JJ s and far more expensive brands.
what types of tubes are in this amp?
what sound are you after tone wise?
ok first make a choice about speakers ,take your fisher to the store ,one set of speakers will sound better(both are nice i can't predict your taste but ide probably go with the horns). than give it a listen at home. is something missing or too much? tubes can fix some of that :ge for balance and clarity ,brimar or rca for warmth mullard for smoothness and lowmid.
example: since bookshelves always lack some bass impact ide try late 60's mullards with the klipsch. many people get in the hype of nos without really addressing their tone problems or personal taste also swapping without a tester is a little strange since you are really changing the output and the tone at the same time without knowing.but if you get tubes to try from the same seller with gain values than you don't need a tester.it's very similar to swapping pickups on an electric or bass guitar the output is one thing the tone is another. tube rolling is done from the first preamp tube and on to the power section one tube at a time.if you don't like any of the tubes youve tried on v1 you can't go to v2.
Yes they are when they are not broken. All day long...and they've been all the rage for 40 years, you kind of give the impression it's a new trend in your rhetoric Paul. I've been selling Mullards and other gems I take out of broken vintage equipment for years and selling them on ebay, worldwide for 20 years. The demand is never lackluster and bids are always healthy when you have the good stuff.
It was strange to heard that NOS tubes are "almost as good as" new Russian or Chinese production. Yes, mass production with NOS elements is almost impossible, but NOS Tungsol or Mullard and Electroharmonix (JJ, Golden something, etc) different like a Day and Night, and PS Audio knows about it for sure...
Tanks Paul for this good advice 👍
Who manufacture the tubes PS Audio use in the equipment?
sovtek in russia
I would say different. So it is up to what You like. I tried several different tubes in my preamp. NOS and new ones, right now I am using JJ Electronic, and think they are as good as the Mullard Nos I hade in it. Downside of the Mullards was the where very microfonic . Pick up everything , but sound was good. So I would say , try different new ones, then buy more vinyls .
nos tubes are more quiet than any modern tube (with the same output) they have a lower noise floor and it can be measured. jj tubes are mellow sounding which is nice for modern amps the problem is that they don't have enough gain to match the specs. if a tube like jj would have been made in the mullard factory it would have been rejected as too weak. min nos value is higher than todays standard. if you are after low noise the military versions of american tubes are really good but the mullard 10m is the holy grail.
I'm guessing that the Russian tunes are electro-harmonix. The only reason I know is because they had an ad for their tubes in the box for the bass chorus pedal I bought.
I only have one experience with NOS tubes. Yes they're absolutely worth it, at least in that one experience. I switched from jj to NOS mullard for my 12at7's and was very pleasantly surprised at the improvement.
james robinson Personally I prefer a cleaner signal without the distortion from tubes being added. Yes, a tube amp can clip a signal better (soft clipping with even harmonics) at the spikes than a poorly designed transistor amp, but who wants a poorly designed transistor amp anyway? DSPs can make better sounding tube distortion than tubes can ever do btw.
@@ThinkingBetter and how exactly is your comment relevant?
james robinson The point is that paying lots for tubes is making no sense if your aim is to preserve the audio as it was recorded maximally. Transistors can do better.
@@ThinkingBetter SMH
Isn't it time we enjoyed listening to the music rather than spending ( wasting time ) comparing one toob with another make of toob..?
Paul are those one of your new PS Audio Speakers?
Those are their prototype AN3
@@jamesplotkin4674 , sadly.... theyve changed course.
One caveat: buying tubes on line from someplace like ebay is a pretty risky proposition. Of course they are going to tell you their tubes are the best, but my experiences have been pretty bad in general. I buy from our friend Kevin Deal instead. Every one of his tubes is burned in and tested, and they are not that expensive unless you want to go crazy.
I’d love to know in what way those are ‘tubes’ they are valves!
As someone who grew up in the age of tubes; the question should really be are ANY tubes worth it? And don't forget the matched pairs for push-pull amplifiers.
Exactly !!
It’s just supply and demand. Simple as that. If they sound great and you want them badly, you pay for them.
So many tube rollers can’t be wrong.
Frankly, they are pretty wrong. In today's time where q Solid State amp can elegantly swipe away an equivalent top of the line tube amp, the only reason tubes feel good is because of the elitism it offers.
Aaron Mathias ... you are mistaken. Firstly, different people have very different preference to sound. I for one don’t think highly of the LS50, that is me. I prefer the Harbeth P3ESR. Many have raved about the LS50. I can understand why.
I have a tube preamp. Upgrading from a simple TungSol to EH Gold pins already make a significant difference. Those are not NOS tubes. Just your average good tube that’s not costly.
Also, SS is good, no doubt about it. I have the Audia Flight FLS 10 but when I run it in power amp mode with my Cary Audio SLP-5 the sound is so different. I prefer that.
@@hushpuppykl I definitely agree with your premise that different people prefer different sound signatures.
I have a Yamaha B2 power amp that sings beautifully to this day with my Yamaha A-S2000 serving as a pre-amp and feeding to a pair of Wharfedale Dentons.
Using select tracks from Blood, Sweat & Tears as reference, my friend & I compared my system to his pure valve system of the Luxman SQ N-150.
The thing I realised is it is about music preferences as much as the tone signature. My friend is all about classical and Jazz. And I must say it sounded beautiful. BUT... The moment we switched over to fast paced Rock, Pop, even to Blood, Sweat, Tears.... Well, we both unanimously prefered my setup.
I guess different strokes for different folks...
Aaron Mathias ... a Yamaha AS2000 as a preamp? Hehehe ...
I’m using an Audia Flight FLS10 as a power amp to the Cary Audio SLP-5.
All sorts in life eh? 😂
@@hushpuppykl Your combo sounds extremely tantalising. Unfortunately in Bombay, not many dealers are around with demo units of Cary/Audia.
What speakers are you using? What is the audio signature like?
NOS are worth it they sound much better than new production tubes and they are made to a higher standard . it's measurable sonic wise and they last much longer. a number of high end audio and guitar amp makers use nos tubes in critical positions of their best gear. you just have to know what you are going for. if you are going for a british sound than no russian or chinease tube can give you that midrange warmth and bass extension like a 1960's mullard ,brimars are also nice less bass but even warmer. if you want an american sound than ge are sweet and rca are more nasty in a nice way.in the cleaner regions of the best nos you also have telefunken and amperex but in my experience i'm happy with mullard or ge most of the time for any amp stereo or guitar because i like their sound. in comparison the modern tubes sound harsh empty and lack air. dear paul if you are referring to 12ax7 those gold lion you mentioned i dare you to replace even only v1 to a ge jan 12ax7wa 1970's 90$ for clarity and sweetness or to a mullard i61 or i63 to feel some bass which will make you smile if you are after good sound. i think a lot of people are doing this tube thing wrong than they say nos is a waste. first thing is to know how much gain you like in any gain stage in your amp and selecting a tube that's strong enough second is to evaluate the sound signiture and saying something like i need more bass less midrange for example and than you can tweak the amps tone to your needs by putting the right tube. it's pure audiophilia to tube roll . gear that's made today and uses tubes isn't cheap. but still you use bad chinese
ussian made components because you have no choice the good stuff is long gone it doesnt mean that the consumers can't get nos tubes on ebay and make your amp sound better. nos are superior try and you shall hear!
'NOS' can be amazing, but the time, effort and expense to find one that actually is unused or nearly new can be considerable. Loads of cowboys on Ebay that list valves as NOS and price accordingly, but when you receive and install them, they sound anything but, because they've had a hammering previously. Potential benefits are great, but it's a heartbreaking and potentially expensive minefield.
try "nib" less shady more pricey no more bad surprises...also buying from stores is much safer .on ebay if it's too good to be true it's either used or not exactly the brand/model it says it is(ei instead of telefunken matsuhita instead of mullard ,not really a matched set) some sellers i trust are the tube king and langrex .
Tubes are a fickle thing, I literally I have two sets of general electric tubes, same factory in canada, same basically everything, one set has the same printing (unbranded but its GE) as the other and the other set the printing on the glass is different but they are a matched pair (GE branding on both). the unbranded one is to my ears nearly solid state like with a touch of what makes tubes, tubes while the branded set is a touch warmer and tubey, really the highs are brought down maybe a decibel or two but not three and the bass is maybe brought up just about the same. Doesn't sound like a lot but it's enough to make the highs sound not shrill and the lower end fill in and add in the saturation in dynamics that tubes do and it's nice. Maybe not as nice as a amperex bugle boy or even gold lions but at
From my limited experience I would never be happy with the new tubes coming out of China. The NOS stuff Ive used killed the stuff made today.
I never knew you needed to change tubes once a year. That is way too inconvenient, regardless of the cost.
That and the fact that I like a bit too much bass is why I've stayed with SS amps, though I would like to try one of the Dynaco PAS 4's, as I hear they match well with SS amps.
I've had tubes which worked just as new for about 10-12 years. Others needed replacing after a couple of years. I have a friend who has had the same tubes in his preamp for over 20 years.
@@danabunner487 That is the way I figured it was. When I was a little boy my father took me to a drug or hardware store where they had a tube testing machine and replacements. I got my amp/preamp in 1992. It hasn't needed any maintenance except for the lights in the meters burning out. I replaced them but they burned out again. I left them that way because they don't effect the sound.
paul likes the sound of fresh tubes so he's swapping every year not a bad idea with modern tubes reliability wise ,soundwise i prefer broken in tubes less bright and harsh .i'm using nos so i don't have to bother till i hear a problem(a few thousand hours.paid 500$ for a tube tester so i can make sure which is weak). paul is showing irrational behaviour about tubes because he is basically a very good guy and feels partly guilty telling us that genalex(russian made) are as good as nos which is 99% bullshit and 1% marketing. so all those amazing amps from the 60's and 70's like audio research,conrad johnson fisher and dynaco used bad parts and now china and russia are making better parts?
My dad mocked me for buying "commie valves" but, you know, he was right. One cracked as soon as it heated up. (To be clear, it was NOS from the USSR).
Try Voskhod. The ones I use for line amps are incredible both sonically and quality wise.
@@BDawgStudio Which model you are talking about?
@@beslemeto 6j1p-ev
@@BDawgStudio Thanks!Can you use them on preamps?
@@beslemeto Yep. I use them on the FX-AUDIO TUBE-01J line amp. Please note though that the TUBE-01J is a much better sounding device than the cheaper non-J version.
Great Paul
Tubes, light bulbs in your gear
Those easy bake ovens for kids, had light bulbs for a heat source, could cook a brownie with those things.
Just saying.
That speaker next to the toilet is interssting
And you don't use JJ electronic tubes, have you tried them Paul Manley lab use JJ electronics. Probably the best tubes are KR audio based in the Czech Republic, how come you don't use them? they sell them as balanced pairs. Their fairly priced KR audio p130 pre-amp with phono stage is probably one of the best in the world at any price point. You should try one with your power amps interesting to know what it sounds like have you?
Poor little Sprout speakers torn up in the back.....
Yes as much as vintage incandecent light bulbs are.
No they are absolutely not worth it. Any perceived sound of tubes is an additive effect that can be done even better, if you are into additive audio effects, with a modern DSP operating on 32bit resolution. Personally I prefer a cleaner signal without tube effects.
great !go away!
It's Tube not Toob 😂
Love the American accent.
and that's 99% true 😉
I think a toob would be someone who is a tube noob.
Yeah yeah, whatever. The food in the UK still sucks... freakin jellied eel. On a separate note, your uploads on your youtube page are quite nice. I will look over them in more detail when I get a chance.
@@terrywho22
Jellied eels ... Yuck 😝 😂
I think that's an old London cockney thing.
Actually I love the American accent, which like I said is 99% true 😉
Thanks for checking my films out. Its an expensive hobby ... I know lots of people in the music industry, so it's nice to make films with some of my friends.
My UA-cam page is rather dated since I use Vimeo most of the time. 🎥🎬 ... 🎼🎵🎶
@@terrywho22 An American criticising the food of another country? I'm just sorting through correspondence from my deceased best friend while he was traveling through the USA 20 years ago. Every second letter/postcard lamented what passes for food in the USA (food-like substances) and how much he was looking forward to returning to Tasmania (paradise!). When Alan Gussow visited my home in the late 1980s he declared the vegetable soup I prepared from freshly harvested real food the best fast food he'd ever tasted.
Kentucky Fried Chicken? Finger lickin's OK provided you don't put the fucking stuff in your mouth. MacDonalds? Essential eating if you enjoy the delights of having a MacDonalds shit.
@@ProjectOverseer "I think that's an old London cockney thing"
Back in the 1960s my parents sold packets of prawns, cockles, whelks, and tubs of jellied eels in pubs around Nuneaton and Bedworth on Friday and Saturday nights. Breakfast kippers for mitigating the hangover the following day even. I have fond memories of eating what hadn't sold when I was a lad :-)
It is necessary to buy expensive NOS tubes only if they are already tested and selected by parameters. In another case, you can find them even for free. NOS tubes sound a little different, but sometimes less reliable. All this fussing with NOS tubes only makes sense if you want to get that very vintage sound.
or if you want to get the best sound! it's exactly like using a transistor with lower noise floor in a transistor amp.they are superior everybody that's serious about audio in the last century knows it. about nos being unreliable ...compared to what? they last more than 10000 hours
New old stock
The Mullard GZ 33 and GZ 37 rectifier tubes are pretty much indestructible and well worth the money.
Have to second what he says about new production Genalex Gold Lion tubes. I own about a dozen of them, across four different types of tubes and they have been very good. They stand up well to New Old Stock tubes, I'd say better than most of them.
"genalex gold lion" was a famous british valve company in the 50's those tubes you talk about(sovteks because they are made at the sovtek factory in russia) have nothing to do with the original company not the same tooling not the same procedures not the same materials not the same country....not even remotely similar soundwise. eh/ genalex tubes are not bad sounding they sound mediocre flat lifeless and a little harsh compared to the real thing. i always ask people that protect their crappy chinese/russian tubes-why don't you get the whole amp from china? why buy a hi end american made 6000$ preamp like the bhk and put a bad component in it? the truth is (as some more honest amp makers revealed ): though everybody that knows anything about tubes (including the late bascom king ;nelson pass;ernie nidell ,paul reed smith and tube experts in the hifi and guitar amp world ) knows that nos tubes (hi end british american german and holland made mainly 1940-1975 ) are superior to the modern tubes-this is without getting into the best military medical or industrial versions those will just destroy any modern crap and run circles around it before breakfast ,as amp makers they don't have a choice since they can't get big supplies of nos these days . as a customer you can get whatever you want you don't need big quantities. .the ifi audio itube costs 300$ and has a nos american made ge military grade tube, the ps bhk is 6k and uses russian genalex(40$ each replace once a year without testing because paul says so ...)the peachtree grand integrated was 4500$ and used 2 chinese tubes(20$ total) -some care about sound quality some don't. paul is very clever: first he states that he is" no expert" than he says things that will make his mentors ashamed of him. all that just not to admit" i am using the best component that is available to me now and it's not the best ever made". if he would want his rich customers to have the best sound quality he would encourage them to try the best nos tubes.some things like a lower noise floor less microphonics or more depth you just can't bullshit about (as long as you have ears).
Hitler was a vegetarian
Forget the tubes, let's go back to democrats raising our gas prices $.38 on Monday in Illinois/Chicago. Tax & Spend!
PS Audio is full of BS Audio
Bullshit!!
This is 99% half truth. Do not listen to this egocentric audio snob. There is absolutely no doubt that NOS tubes are much better. It is like day and night. They do pretty much as high-end cables do, improve the sound. He compares e.g. Amperex tubes with some s× Electroharmonix tubes. What a disgrace! I unsubscribe
GOOD! Unsubscribe and get the hell out of here, and don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out!! Get outa here with that rubbish!!!!
Well, bye. LOL!