@@omegarugal9283you say wrong, but amusingly to me you're the one that's wrong, initial models of netburst celeron's had 128KB of L2 cache, which was half what a Williamette pentium came with. You're probably thinking of the original celeron's which didn't have any L2 cache iirc Edit: just to clarify, the netburst celeron's had 8KB of L1 data cache in addition to 12k uOps, so they could in fact cache data at L1 level and not just instructions
Phil! This video was so on point! Recently me and my buddy traded Celerons! He gave me his Celeron 1.2GHz Tualatin with via apollo pro 133t motherboard and 1.5gb ram. In return I gave him Celeron 2.4GHz Northwood with intel 865 motherboard and 4gb ram. He said he values modernness and high compatibility more. He also disliked how tualatins didnt have sse2 support, so that is also covered for him! In return i got my dream cpu with dream platform.
When released in mid-2002, the Celeron 1700 mhz was very slow but for a Windows 98 Retro PC it is fast enough and it also can be downclocked to lower frequencies to emulate much older CPUs, if needed.
Could you pls elaborate a bit more of downclocking of these Celerons? Aren't they multiplier locked like older P2/P3 based Celerons? They also use FSB 100 (the lowest one for s478) and lower FSB clocks are rather uncommon on many s478 motherboards.
I would not say far enough. I overclocked one to 3,3Ghz and it was still very sluggish, only around 1,1Ghz Athlon performance in Unreal for example. It would bottleneck the 2000-2002 era GPU's so I would not say its good enough. There was a secret gem tho. The mobile Celeron, which worked fine in desktop boards, had 256KB of cache and that one worked way better. It seems like Netburst just falls apart if it does not have at least 256KB of L2. This was further proven with the Cedar-mill celeron, which had 512K and was not that much slower than 2MB of Cedarmill P4. But 512K vs 128K on Northwood was day and night. Decent CPU versus total tragedy slower than the cheapest Duron.
@@sjogosPT It kinda does. NetBurst in general always was bandwidth dependent, not only because of L2 cache misses but also due to the very tiny L1 instruction trace cache (which had a size of 8K micro operations for Willamette and Northwood). This is also why NetBurst benefited so much when P4's bus was scaled up to 200 MHz (quad-pumped; 800 MT/s), while Athlon XP didn't as much. I think even for the Celeron, you can only maximize its performance potential (which, I know, isn't great) if you give faster memory for it to feast on - memory with enough bandwidth to fully utilize its 400 MT/s bus (which traditional SDRAM couldn't).
I appreciate the fact you're still importing saves. It does make a difference to the viewer. The same 30 seconds over and over and over again in benchmarking is a bugbear of mine. I know this takes more effort on your part but it makes the visuals more interesting for the viewer. Love the content and the work you do for the retro community. X
I agree with your stance on Steam and have avoided any new purchases since Windows 7 support was dropped and when they essentially promised Windows 10 support will drop as soon as Microsoft ends their own support. I've mostly switched over to GoG as well and in addition to enjoying both the DRM free installs, I also keep my GoG library sync'd offline in case GoG TOS changes. I have all of the GoG offline installation files for my entire library saved on the NAS.
Same here. I only buy from GOG for the most part, and have a NextCloud server that has my entire GOG library on it. So my game library will always be available locally. (GOG has been my primary platform since their beta in September of 2008.)
@@philscomputerlab I wanted to add: Thank you for pointing out that not *every* game on Steam requires the Steam launcher. Several years back, after mentioning it in one of your videos, I was able to recover several retro games from Steam (e.g. Kings Quest I - V) and avoid needing to repurchase from GoG.
Aaah, getting stuck is the true retro gaming experience! I remember when I was a kid with no internet connection, and I could neither look up guides to situations like your landing pad issue or download patches for games that was shipped with bugs. It was hard times, man! Also, we have the same socket 478 motherboard, I just run a 3.4 GHz Prescott on mine 🔥
@@incandescentwithrage "applebred cache unlocking" It was 20 years ago, I remember using an automotive conductive marker used to repair a broken heating element on the rear window. I think the mod unlocked the full 128kb of cache rather than the default 64kb. Overclocking culture back then was to buy the cheapest stuff and overclock and mod it to the maximum which was so much fun. XP-M chips were the best out of all the amd cpus of the era.
@@Dale-TND Thanks, I didn't know that at all, but a Google search shows it to be true. I used AMD from K6 to Phenom and thought I knew all the tricks, but apparently not!
Messing with computer parts I know how compatibility issues can cause headaches and it is worse when you don't know what's wrong. Keep up the great work Phil :)
I'd like to see a comparison of Pentium 4 boards using the different RAM, including the SD, DDR, and Rambus memory. Not sure if I've ever seen a single CPU tested across different boards with varying memory types. I have a socket 423 Pentium 4 Alienware computer that also throws a curve ball into the Pentium 4 nostalgia. That socket lasted just a few months it seemed. Great video Phil... love this adventure down the Pentium 4 rabbit hole.
The second PC we had, and also, it was the first PC I bought on my onw money has a P4i65G motherboard, I still have that machine. It's my go-to machine when I need to do something on a WinXP machine. However I'm using it with a little more capable CPU, I have a Pentium 4 with Hyper-threading clocking at around ~3.0ish GHz (I believe it's a Northwood), I played more demanding games like NOLF2, Doom3 and Painkiller with an Nvidia 7600 GS. It wasn't the most powerful machine when I bought it in 2006 but I was having so much fun with it! Also, I was using it for my college studies, of course... I love Shogo!
Hello Phil, I am not sure if its only me, but there is some static noise in right channel of audio. About the Tachyon, slowly approach landing zone and there should be text over screen and then press Use Key (i think it was Enter).
I still remember how painfully was using northwood 1.7 ghz celeron with 128 cache and 400 fsb in early 10s. But when i upgraded old riva tnt 2 to geforce 2 mx400 all games i needed ran smoothly. It was windows xp and gigabyte 845 motherboard with 512mb sdram pc133
same, I had a system that used a 2.4ghz northwood celeron, I "upgraded" it to a scrap 1.6ghz p4 willamette. realistically the celeron was completely useless in even basic use, the instant you had more than a fresh install of windows xp you got 100% cpu idles. it really was that bad. the P4 at least ran a web browser better, which was the biggest issue at that point. this PC also had only PCI slots, and while I later got an "upgrade" PCI based FX 5200... most of it's life was spent with intel 845 "Extreme" graphics. this was in the late 2010s, I was a broke kid without a choice, anything to make the PC a little less intolerable was worth it. but man that system was such a piece of trash.
@@hburke7799 Yeah, I remember I once installed win xp sp3 on several celeron 2.1(16*133) and Celeron 2600 (26*100) northwood . I only installed drivers and god it was slow on a clean system. I instantly felt that animation of menus was not smooth. Never had experience with this platform before, and I was amazed how bad it was. Then I installed win xp sp3 on athlon like 1600+ or 1900+ and it was so much better. Even Celeron M 1600 was a lot better than northwood, though it had 100mz FSB vs 133 on northwood and athlon. Celeron 2600 (26*100) was garbage.
1:40 - Tom's Hardware evidently got some $$$ from Intel to review the Celeron and P4 in a favorable way. Many hardware companies payed PC Magazines, Sites, reviewers a lot of money to show their products in a positive way. I remember in my country Romania back in 1999 and after the PC Magazines that were full of nvidia comercials always said (ridiculosly) that the TNT2's were by far the best video cards in every aspect and that the Voodoo 3's are outdated, slow, with bad image quality etc even though just a year earlier in 1998 when they didn't have nvidia comercials they praised 3dfx and recomanded mostly 3dfx cards V1, V2 and Banshee. That totally changed when the nvidia comercials appeared in their magazine.
Another lovely breakfast with Phil's! I loved that Celeron. It was one of the best overclockers on the planet. I held the world record for about 3 hours on the day we all figured this out. Good Times.
The compatibility thing you mentioned at the end is a huge deal. I have an Athlon-based system with a VIA chipset, and it was a nightmare getting things (like my sound card) running correctly. Totally different experience from back in the day where my sound hardware simply worked. Come to think of it, I was all Intel back then, so maybe that's why. I need to just build another machine and put a P4 or Celeron in it.
I was starting to hate these issues until the nforce chipsets came out and made the best improvement to AMD boards until the AMD chipsets finally released. Those Intel chipsets From i440bx onward deserve the praise they get, they were just simply better.
Sometimes via chipsets worked good, sometimes don't. They are picky about your hardware and drivers. But if you have all the right stuff they work good and normally have more options than other chipsets (like ISA slots, dual memory (ddr and sdr) etc. i like via for that. Ofc nforce2 were much more stable chipset, but for a windows 98 machine we want a soundblaster card in a isa slot and the last motherboards with isa were via chipset. When you figure out all configs needed, via chipset works good.
If you haven't figured it out already, you dock in Tachyon by pressing the enter key after you land on the pad and receive the clearance message. AMD must be super grateful for Intel for the Netburst CPUs, after all they got 5 or so years of dominance because of it before Intel got their stuff together and made Core.
The Netburst architecture was intel in desperation to compete with AMD with frequency (not IPC). They had the excellent Pentium III Coppermine which was outperformed in IPC by AMD Athlon. So Intel had to build something that could deliver workflow with sheer frequency (but lower efficiency) Netburst idealy was not designed with gaming in mind. But the P4 models with decent cache, was okay. But still got beaten in gaming by AMD Athlon XP (and later 64), even with lower frequency.
Heyyyyy a video on NetBurst Celerons! Not great CPUs performance wise considering the time period they came out and the competition, but they hold a special place in my heart, because the first computer I ever used was a Compaq Presario S4000NX with a 2.4Ghz Northwood Celeron, integrated Intel 845GL "extreme" graphics that I later upgraded to an FX 5500 PCI, and 128MB DDR RAM (probably single channel) that was expanded to 1GB later. Was perfectly fine for flash games and emulating anything up to a Nintendo 64. I never messed with AAA PC titles back in the day admittedly. The PC that replaced it for me around 2011 had a Celeron Dual Core E1500 at 2.2Ghz or something along those lines.
We had something like those in school, HPs with celeron from the P4 era, the only positive part was that it was a basic sysadmin course, so we had full admin access and could do anything we wanted apart from the rest of the school :)
My school had celerons 2.4. They worked good in windows 2000 in 2004/2005. When they upgraded to XP became very slow, was a great performance penalty the XP upgrade.
@@sjogosPT yeah, ours was probably from that time and got into our classroom when the rest of the school upgraded, But 1.7 GHz if I don't missremember. The rest of the school had shiny new core 2 duos with windows 7, we could use those, but with severely locked down accounts and a couple of hundred megabytes of network storage quota.
I totally agree with your Netburst comments. I built my first PC with an Athlon XP 1800+ in 2002, and felt like I was hot stuff, and I sure was right! Later on I upgraded to a XP 2500+, and i felt like hot stuff then too! The point you make near the end for having a slower pc than an athlon64 for shogo to work properly is fascinating.
My first PC I ever bought with my own money, before I learned how to build my own, was a Netburst Celeron PC. I think it was a 1.8Ghz. I upgraded the RAM to 512MB and added a PCI FX5200, as there was no AGP slot and it was all I could find locally before the days where people could buy online. I remember playing that Microsoft rally racing game and thinking it was amazing. I later realized my PC was a hunk of junk and started building my own that didnt suck.
It is really fun (in a twisted way). The Celeron was nothing more (or less) than a cost optimized Pentium 4. It fared slightly worse than a Duron due to the way the cache operated and the latency impact of a missed branch prediction, but it was still sold in probably hundreds of thousands of computers. Overall, it saved Intel money and was popular enough with OEMs. The end-user never mattered.
Yeah on Pentium 4/Celeron Expandable likes cache size as much as Quake 3 likes memory bandwith. It's the same with Duron vs. Athlon but not to that extent. In the beginning the celeron was further slowed down because OEMs used SD-RAM Boards for a long time until they switched to DDR266 .
Via chipsets are needed if you want to use YMF7x4 or ES1938 cards. They also allow AGP 3.3V (Voodoo 3-4-5) cards. If I recall correctly, Intel chipsets were AGP 1.5V for P4 and those retro friendly PCI sound cards won’t work in pure DOS. That’s why I went VIA for socket 478. For Windows 98, there are other options (P3 with 815 chipset, Athlon XP with a multitude of chipsets, A64 the same). One suggestion as alternative PC to this one: Asus A7S333 socket 462. It has a SIS chipset, runs with Voodoos and I think they run well with the YMF7x4 or ES1938 cards. Thanks for another great video Phil
Yeah Celeron D had 256kb L2. But back then the integrated GPUs (Intel, SiS or S3/Via) on the mainboards were slow, some games even refused to run at all.
Really looking forward for the comparison to the P4 2.8Ghz benchmark! I really stayed myself out from the Pentium 4 back in the days, but nowadays these are the more common CPU I am ending in the random computer cases I buy from local auctions and marketplace. Also I may try SDRAM versus DDRAM on one of my Pentium 4 (mounted on a PC-Chips SIS chipset :p).
I remember! an Athlon XP at 2000 MHz was capable to (roughly, without SSE2) play UA-cam videos while a Northwood Celeron overclocked to 3200 MHz cannot.
I still have an old 478 2.4 GHz Celeron here as a test PC. I always use it to test DDR and SD RAM modules as well as AGP and sometimes PCI hardware. Runs standard moderately with a Radeon 9600 and 1 GB RAM with XP and 98 in dual boot. Also ideal for testing old software. I could have swapped it for a better one, but I didn't feel like swapping it because it's just not that important.
I had one of these, the 1.2ghz version back in the 00's I 'upgraded' from my old pentium 166mmx with 16mb of ram to this with 128mb. I didn't know anything about computers back then other than bigger number better ( I was 13-14) It was by far the worst computer I have ever had, it could barely run windows XP and couldn't even manage 30fps on the windows media player visualisations!
Nice jump - I went from a 233MMX to a PIII 800 in 2000, which within a month became a 933, then a 1 Ghz. I kept that until 2005 and got a P4 2.6, then that became a 3.0 HT. I seem to recall those P4s were pretty good chips.
Nice to see that you also used the Winfast A250, mine does an excellent job in my W98 rig 👍🏻 I have the two fan version btw but they aren't too noisy but had to replace the 'spongey' dust filters since they changed into powder almost 😂
Great video Phil.Funny thing still have my Pentuim 4 celeron 1.7 ghz on my test bench.Running tests on my old Voodoo 3 3000 ,Matrox 8 meg and thenold ATI 4 meg card they bring up some interesting results. Been 45 years today the computer sector.Never liked new tech i am old school love Reto stuff. Cheers from Turkey mate.
Thank you Phil. That was really intereting. I always went with AMD so Intel tech always passed me by. Even tho’ I was aware of their iterations the Netburst Celeron meets its expectations to a limit like any other processor, but as ever the marketing over sold its abilities and let people down. I would use one today as the competitive b/s doesn’t matter any more. I just need to know that a cpu will perform as I need it to for the games I want to play. If it doesn’t I’ll just build a newer system.
Yeah they're not real great. On the other hand, they come as standard in a ton of Dell Dimensions which are dirt cheap. The dimensions only have PCI slots, so would need something like a Voodoo 2 to compliment the onboard Intel graphics. Figured out that the onboard sound in that chipset has Soundblaster compatibility without fm or midi. Perhaps something worth experimenting with using Serdaco's LPT cards? These machines in the right setup could be excellent cheap first steps into retro gaming. I also know for a fact they seem to respond well to sound cards like the Yamaha PCI cards you featured years ago.
I like you are working also and often with just a normal hardware one can get without "selling his liver and kindeys.".👍 And I like workin with the hardware which was common and available. When it comes on P4 I have got a system based on socket 423 and it has 1.7Ghz CPU and the infamous RAMBUS memory 🤪. The PC is badly abused and the original SCSI HDD is unfortunately missing 😢. It needs a lot of work to look good again. Anyway I am looking forward to see what this beast can do!
When i was child we had prebuilds at family, Packard Bell with celeron (2.8, 512ram, 160hdd, 9200se) and later hp compaq d330ut (2.8 p4, 1gb ram and dont remember the rest). It is only like 15 years ago so not that long to be honest! These spaceheaters does have special place in my heart for some reason. Have been looking parts to build that era Win XP machine but prices have come up and hard to find locally anymore (versus, few years ago you could find this kind on stuff from dumpster all day long). Athlon XP is also kinda interesting for me. Let’s hope that some beautiful day i got opportunity to build my dream pc of that era! I have been thinkering around c2d/c2q machines for long time but they feel ”too new” for me.
I really like GOG. I had quite a lot of old games which i transfer to WinXP or Win98 PC. Even new games on GOG runs better like The Witcher 3, Cyberpunk 2077 because no drm. What's about Shogo, every game on first version of Lithtech engine to Lithtech Jupiter from NOLF2 having much higher than 60 fps will do problems with scripts, physics and can crashing much often.
I have straight PTSD seeing that ASRock board. The store I worked for sold hundreds of ASRock based systems and they were absolute garbage. Terrible performance, terrible drivers, terrible audio, crashes, dead boards... The only selling point was that it included their stupid modem card which saved $20 for low-end builds. In 2003, our low-end desktops were only $280 with no O,S so it was actually added value. This intel i865 board was better than the VIA/SIS 478 boards, but still very low quality.
ASRock garbage? I assume you didn't try motherboards from ECS or Epox. ASRock even in those days was rock solid. It was budget-value brand of ASUS, related also to Pegatron, which are used in many OEMs
@@tennickjestzajety69 I certainly can't call them rock solid at that time. Sure they were "budget value", and they got there by using "budget" components. Just because they are made by the same company doesn't mean they were made to the same standards. Our store never got ECS or Epox while I was there.
I think its unfortunate and inevitable future of these old games as even GOG wont be able to maintain them forever, especially those which are less known. Thats why game preservation laws needs to be updated, people should never rely on piracy to be able to enjoy video games. But i dont see it changing anytime soon unfortunately😮💨
Yeah, there are games on GOG that no longer work on new operating systems. Like the game "Incoming" where you specifically have to use 12 year old nvidia drivers for it to work and be on Windows XP-7. Going forward I think there needs to be an online store that offers a client with some sort of emulation software but I could imagine the legal nightmare of using Microsoft's old OS code to get it working.
@@MrBonesawzall brutal one lol. I cut the pins out with a knife, so that some of the base with solder is still with the pin. Then i just drop it in the socket where it needs to be. The soft solder gives and forms to the remenants of the original pin. Best one ive had was an 1800x with 14 broken pins, took me several tries but i got it working. Overcloked it to 4.1ghz and had 3400mhz cl14 ram, it worked withouth a hitch for 5 years in my main pc until the cpu finally died due to way, wayy too much overvoltage in everything lol
I've beaten that game a few times and docking in that game has always been hard and a little glitchy, you basically need to maneuver in different spots over the platform very slowly as slow as possible and just keep hitting enter. It does prompt you with text on the screen when you can dock but it has a weird bug in the hit detection for the landing zone that they never patched, if you see "Cleared to land" pop up on your screen hit enter as fast as you can. honestly in any of the missions where you need to doc its a pain but if you keep trying you will eventually get it. Some people suggest you need to point the nose of your ship strait down at it if there are lights and get close, I've always found stopping and going just going over it over and over again It would eventually let me dock but its always been fussy. Sometime you just need to move away from the platform and go back to it several times and sometimes you get lucky and hit it on the first try. sometime just turning the ship while its at a dead stop over the platform does it too, there is just no rhyme or reason to when it works or doesn't, its just shear luck but if you keep trying nonmatter how bad your luck is eventually you will get it due to shear probability. All that said its a good game with two ways to win either as a Galspan loyalist or as a rebel fighting against Galspan and I recommend doing both routes as they have related but very different stories and missions.
Long-time fan of the content, not sure if anyone else has mentioned this but I hear a high-pitched buzzing in your recent videos that I assume comes from the microphone being used. This is mainly in the right audio channel in these HD600s.
Way back in 2008-9 we had a "network status log server" (Cacti on Linux). The boss didn't want to help us acquire the hardware ("I don't need it, you do"), so we made it ourselves from scrap, err, parts found around the shop. First it was Celeron D, way above 2GHz, and it was struggling, with 100% CPU usage all the time. It couldn't finish querying network appliances within 5 minutes, before next query would start. Ended up frying some capacitors around the CPU socket (capacitor plague times, and there was plenty of hot air blown on them from the heat sink). We replaced it with some dual-Athlon MP machine, after modding two Athlon XP-M CPUs to 2000MHz at 1.55V by soldering some bridges. The chipset was AMD 760MP. Tyan Thunder, with Tiger's BIOS, approved by Tyan technical support. It got 1GB of DDR-266 RAM (single stick, single channel), and it could query the entire network within 3 minutes, without breaking a sweat. Fun times 😸
Not sure if you have tried Oni. It's a first person 3D shooter (open GL, I believe) by Bungie between Marathon and Halo, and has really fun hand-to-hand combat mechanics
The best P4s were the Northwood cores. Prescott was a joke at best but it DID get it into LGA 775 and pushed them up to 3.8 Ghz. The Willamette cores were also woefully underpowered and under clocked.
Willamette was an extremely rudimentary version of the Netburst architecture, almost like a "proof of concept". Northwood corrected many of its problems. It had bigger cache, Hyper Threading on later models and FSB speed bumps. Even if Netburst has an abysmal reputation today, I'd still say Northwood P4s are good CPUs. Prescott had so many architectural improvements over Northwood, like SSE3, far better branch prediction, 90 nm node, improvements in Hyper Threading, a bigger L2 cache, a bigger L1 cache (it was hugely necessary), better scheduling algorithms, 64 bit support later on, etc. It's just a SHAME none of those could stop that goddamn 31-staged pipeline from slowing everything down. Sometimes, Prescott had even less performance than Northwood clock-for-clock. God. Why. If they just did a "Northwood 2" with all the Prescott improvements except for the pipeline increase (or even one with 21 stages would be alright), they would get so much more IPC. So much of a better product to compete with the Athlon 64. "But NOPE, clock speed is all we're doing." However, I think it would have less TDP and wouldn't be a space heater. Altogether, they could have probably hit 3.80 GHz or even 4.00 GHz. It's all just a huge shame.
I remember when my eldest brother bought a PC back in 2003 which came with a Netburst Celeron at 1.7GHz and boy was I told by a family friend that my brother got ripped off. It was a cheapo family PC tho, as it only had a lowly Acorp board with a VIA chipset and no discrete GPU. The most I could run on it was older Windows 9x games.
Back in 2005 I attended to a Cisco traning and we had Laptops with 2.0GHz Celis. For telnet and RS232 it was good but for more not really. Multitasking? Please not. When you rebench S478 you might add P4 2.0A, and P4 2,53GHz to show the benefit of the Northwood Core and FSB533. You might also try Celerons with Prescott Core. Only 256kb L2 Cache but the very long pipeline and high power draw.
Back then I had the p III 750 to 1133 and the GeForce 2 mx 400 to fx5500 . Wasn't till late 2006 when I went to an athlon 64 3500 with an hd 2400 pro but it was just my roommate, his dad and one other guy that didn't have P4's
Weird how much the cache affects on Netburst. With K7, even the Duron with its tiny 64kB of L2 is still more capable than you may think and it's not that bad when compared to a full Athlon/Athlon XP.
I am glad to see you playing more games now Phil. For example, I didn't know anything about Tachyon: The Fringe beyond the name, but seeing it on the channel made me want to play it myself. Unfortunate that relatively few games had built-in benchmarks, so those games get all the attention in the retro hobby (which is actually very understandable--we are comparing hardware)
In many games a few slowdowns aren't a big deal I feel. But if you want it's nice building something to get 60 fps locked at all times. It's a very smooth feeling.
I played quite a few hours of tachyon: the fringe. Got it at random in the store because the box looked cool. If i recall i played it on a p2 with a 16 meg TNT gpu and the ol classic Microsoft sidewinder.
At least Intel was aware of the issues with Netburst and they made Pentium M and Celeron M. In 2006 I've bought laptop with Celeron M 380 and with 1.6 GHz clock it had similar performance to 2.4 GHz Pentium 4 using much less energy. My first and only Celeron that I've used in my main (for time being) computer. Anyway Intel never managed to made Celeron brand consistent. It should be entry-level CPU that should remain useful for lightweight task. Unfortunately it almost never delivered that. Celeron's were either too slow for any use or they were too good for their price, often having comparable performance to more expensive CPUs.
When I was around 12 years old I tried to play NFS Hot Pursuit 2 on a resort hotel's public PC. It had a Willamette Celeron 1.7 with 845G integrated video, and what a nightmare it was to play NFSHP2 in single digits frame rate. Even the crippled TNT2 Model 64 could do better.
There are a couple of benchmarks that really hit the Netburst-128 CPUs hard. 3DMark 2000 is by far the worst - a 1GHz Coppermine PIII will actually outperform a Celeron 2.6 in this particular benchmark. Doom III, 3DMark01SE, UT2004, SuperPi aren't quite as nasty as 3DMark 2000, but also run quite poorly on Netburst-128. These CPUs are actually a little worse under XP, since NT OSes are a little more sensitive to cache-starved CPUs than Win 9x.
HI Phil good material, but you need better work with audio, on right chanel Im hear buzzz in all lenght of video. Something interfrrencing with your sound recording devices.
You are so right about Steam. I won't buy there anymore because I don't accept being forced into the latest Windows version. We should not trust GOG blindly either, maybe some day they'll sell the store and the new owners change the conditions - who knows? Therefore I store backups of all installation files of my GOG games (currently 770 games 🙂). In case of any issue I'll still have these copies.
The pretty much all of the Netburst based Celeron's were awful. There were some later ones that were decent but only when overclocked. The lack of L2 is much more of a hindrance to performance in that Netburst architecture. Bumping up the FSB can help somewhat but not nearly as much as it could in the previous generations of Celerons (which I had owned back then.) Netburst is the generation is when I jumped ship to AMD for a few years. I was knowledgeable enough that the quirks of the AMD platform at that time were no big deal for me. The performance of the Athlon XP chips (I had an 1800+ and a 2500+ OC'd to 3200+ speeds) served me well for several years. It has been interesting to me to experience the back and forth rivalry between Intel and AMD ever since the 386 days. I've gone back and forth between their chips & platforms many times in my primary PCs over the decades!
GOG is great. I think I speak for almost all millenial age and older gamers when I say that site is a goddamn public service. Most of what I play is newer, but those times I've had the itch for a game I played as a teenager GOG's got me 9/10 times. There's some obscure stuff on there too.
earliest Pentium 4s were slower even than AMD's Durons. I had both and did several benchmarks at the time. Later, AMD lauched the Atlhon 64 x2 which literally destroyed anything Intel had. Good old days.
I was excited for the P4 line of cpu's until I got one, the Willamette core was terrible, almost turned me off of them entirely. The Northwood, then Prescott made so much of an improvement even if they still were not up to expectations they were at least usable.
I have played most novalogic games from that era delta force 1 and 2, armored fist 3, comanche 4. I had never heard of Tachyon until I saw it in one of your earlier videos and I cant believe that because I also love Bruce Campbell so that game would be right up my alley, thanks for introducing that to me. I really like shogo too because even though the critical hit system can be kind of unfair it is so cool in many other ways. I like the mecha sections and thought it was a good FPS for the time despite some flaws. I really enjoy your videos and I am glad to have discovered your channel. I knew about your website from the tutorials but had no idea you were also making videos. 😅 I also am dropping support for steam and I have had an account for 18 years not as long as some people but its still old enough to vote in Canada 😂 I was planning on making a big forum post and rant on there soon here.
@@philscomputerlab yep thats land warrior probably the best one in the series. I never got the full version till it came out on gog but Egypt was the demo level. The one I spent the most time playing was 2 on novaworld though. It had amazing multiplayer for the time, had a server browser baked in, supported up to 50 players and ran super smooth on a dialup connection.
I still remember when this junk came out. I was still early in my glorious IT career and the company was ordering IBM desktops. The build nerds where excited to see this new P4.. it came in on some IBM desktop with SDR 133mhz ram.. they where such a dog.
I wouldn't say that it's unfair to benchmark using sdram. When Intel released the first Willamette Celeron on socket 423 there was two Intel chipsets available, the i850 supporting rdram and i845 supporting sdram. Very few people combined expensive rdram with a celeron. Later on VIA released the P4X266 chipset with DDR support, but one of the reasons for buying an Intel CPU was using Intel chipsets. Right before socket 423 got superseded by socket 478, Intel finally released the 845D with DDR support. tl;dr, early adopters of the Willamette Celeron ran sdram. It's worth benchmarking just to see what low cost alternative Intel replaced P3 based systems with.
The thing with Steam you mentioned at the end, I am surprised that nobody talks about that. I do understand that you want to play games on retro systems but you have to understand that they HAVE to update it to avoid vulnerabilities on their platform. Given that Steam is based on Chromium (which means it is just a browser), it was just a moment of time that they will drop support for old systems. I would like to have an alternative like GOG does but on Steam so older systems do still have support even if its indirect support. Some games do have that like Half Life 2. I, in no way promote DRM but I do promote security above anything else and the fact that we can still play these older games on newer systems speaks volume. Older systems will still have their place even long after end of support, not only as mark of history but also as for the time best and most stable systems many remember it to be. This is why I still keep that Bliss wallpaper around. Great video, never knew that there are other CPUs with Netburst outside of Pentium 4.
@@philscomputerlab Can you explain that more? I would like to know what you mean with "stained". Is it that its not the same experience like it used to be? Or that you lose control over your purchase? I am curious to know.
the processor was cheaper than $90 at the start, without problems with AMD core fragility, with DDR memory, I sold hundreds of these computers for less than $500 with the ability to play all games. y'all look at these processors from 2023 and say they were slow, but they were cheap, cpu+mb was cheaper then tualatin one and work with ddr memory
Aside from all the pan and fried egg jokes back then, NetBurst was easy to overclock and particularly suitable for beginners(or for chefs and countries with harsh winters). Socket 462/370 CPUs at that time hadn't thermal protection or overvoltage protection, which is why many of them died horribly from overclocking attempts. Like mentiont a solid and save CPU for Win98 games. 😁
Netburst CPUs belong in the trash - unless you just feel like wasting a huge amount of energy doing absolutely nothing. There are lots of other retro systems that will do the job better than any NetBust garbage.
I don't need to watch the video to know what happens when you laser off all the cache from a Netburst, I had a couple of these back in the day. They were absolutely miserable to use!
The Asrock i65G boards have been my fave P4 boards for Windows 98 so far, though i do have an i915P board to try soon. With all of the talk of P4 heat issues, inefficient pipelines and pipeline stalls, I'm yet to experience or notice anything of a problem in ongoing use of these systems as an end user (both now, and back in the day). That being said, I'm yet to build a PIII system - are we being perhaps too focused on the technical aspects of running these systems in the modern day? I manage the hear with a Zalman cooler on my socket 478, and a Cougar Helor AIO water cooler on the 775, beyond this do we have any real world worries? Interested in your thoughts.
@@philscomputerlab yeh currently Im running a 3.0E on the 478 board, and a 651 on the 775. I've also tried a 2.40A, an early 1.6 Williamette, and a late 2.8 Northwood and beyond just flat performance differences which I would expect from the lower clocks, I hadn't noticed any other issues. I do wonder though how the 1.4Ghz P3 compares to the early 1.3Ghz and 1.5Ghz P4s
Yep, Netburst Celeron's were slower than Durons, but they were safer and survived work without fan after cool down. I've experienced bad failure after AMD CPU burned, died almost everything, even HDD...
Shogo is awesome for what it is but the hitscanners are BS, they shoot you through the door before is completely opened. I still enjoy the game a lot but quick save/load is a must because of the broken AI unforts.
With the P4, you have a pipeline that stalls. With the Netburst Celeron, you have a pipeline that stalls and a cache that stalls.
Just like Xfinity Internet
wrong, a P4 celeron has NO cache, seriusly, the netburst RELIES on CACHING instructions to work...
@@omegarugal9283you say wrong, but amusingly to me you're the one that's wrong, initial models of netburst celeron's had 128KB of L2 cache, which was half what a Williamette pentium came with.
You're probably thinking of the original celeron's which didn't have any L2 cache iirc
Edit: just to clarify, the netburst celeron's had 8KB of L1 data cache in addition to 12k uOps, so they could in fact cache data at L1 level and not just instructions
@@omegarugal9283 Only the first two Celerons (266 and 300) were cacheless. Netburst Celerons have L2 but it's cut to ridiculously low amount.
Nah man you get a pipeline that clogs lol!
Phil! This video was so on point! Recently me and my buddy traded Celerons! He gave me his Celeron 1.2GHz Tualatin with via apollo pro 133t motherboard and 1.5gb ram. In return I gave him Celeron 2.4GHz Northwood with intel 865 motherboard and 4gb ram. He said he values modernness and high compatibility more. He also disliked how tualatins didnt have sse2 support, so that is also covered for him! In return i got my dream cpu with dream platform.
Said 133T board of yours has ISA?
@@r.d.7698 yes! Its 6vtxe.
@@r.d.76986VTXE
Nice! The Tualatin is fantastic and the 865 chipset is the best for 478. Win win trade.
Ah yes the dreaded SSE2 support... Pretty much only reason I have to move on from my Athlon XP
When released in mid-2002, the Celeron 1700 mhz was very slow but for a Windows 98 Retro PC it is fast enough and it also can be downclocked to lower frequencies to emulate much older CPUs, if needed.
Yup good summary 🙂
Could you pls elaborate a bit more of downclocking of these Celerons? Aren't they multiplier locked like older P2/P3 based Celerons? They also use FSB 100 (the lowest one for s478) and lower FSB clocks are rather uncommon on many s478 motherboards.
I would not say far enough. I overclocked one to 3,3Ghz and it was still very sluggish, only around 1,1Ghz Athlon performance in Unreal for example. It would bottleneck the 2000-2002 era GPU's so I would not say its good enough. There was a secret gem tho. The mobile Celeron, which worked fine in desktop boards, had 256KB of cache and that one worked way better. It seems like Netburst just falls apart if it does not have at least 256KB of L2. This was further proven with the Cedar-mill celeron, which had 512K and was not that much slower than 2MB of Cedarmill P4. But 512K vs 128K on Northwood was day and night. Decent CPU versus total tragedy slower than the cheapest Duron.
It would be interesting to see the effect of sdram vs ddr
Yeah, that would be a fun benchmark with one of the boards that swings both ways.
I don't think it makes much difference.
@@sjogosPT It kinda does. NetBurst in general always was bandwidth dependent, not only because of L2 cache misses but also due to the very tiny L1 instruction trace cache (which had a size of 8K micro operations for Willamette and Northwood). This is also why NetBurst benefited so much when P4's bus was scaled up to 200 MHz (quad-pumped; 800 MT/s), while Athlon XP didn't as much.
I think even for the Celeron, you can only maximize its performance potential (which, I know, isn't great) if you give faster memory for it to feast on - memory with enough bandwidth to fully utilize its 400 MT/s bus (which traditional SDRAM couldn't).
I appreciate the fact you're still importing saves. It does make a difference to the viewer. The same 30 seconds over and over and over again in benchmarking is a bugbear of mine. I know this takes more effort on your part but it makes the visuals more interesting for the viewer. Love the content and the work you do for the retro community. X
Thank you 😊
I agree with your stance on Steam and have avoided any new purchases since Windows 7 support was dropped and when they essentially promised Windows 10 support will drop as soon as Microsoft ends their own support.
I've mostly switched over to GoG as well and in addition to enjoying both the DRM free installs, I also keep my GoG library sync'd offline in case GoG TOS changes. I have all of the GoG offline installation files for my entire library saved on the NAS.
You and me both 😀
meh, windows sucks anyway
Thanks to Phil i have left steam last year, and already i have over 100 games in my GOG library thanks to amazon prime gaming as well.
Same here. I only buy from GOG for the most part, and have a NextCloud server that has my entire GOG library on it. So my game library will always be available locally.
(GOG has been my primary platform since their beta in September of 2008.)
@@philscomputerlab I wanted to add:
Thank you for pointing out that not *every* game on Steam requires the Steam launcher. Several years back, after mentioning it in one of your videos, I was able to recover several retro games from Steam (e.g. Kings Quest I - V) and avoid needing to repurchase from GoG.
Aaah, getting stuck is the true retro gaming experience! I remember when I was a kid with no internet connection, and I could neither look up guides to situations like your landing pad issue or download patches for games that was shipped with bugs. It was hard times, man! Also, we have the same socket 478 motherboard, I just run a 3.4 GHz Prescott on mine 🔥
Nice!
You should check out some duron systems. I remember doing a pencil mod to enable extra cache that was a great CPU
Pencil trick was to unlock the multiplier on Athlon and Duron.
Out of the two, why on earth would you pick the Duron?
@@incandescentwithrageduron were ½ the price
@@voltare2amstereo Yes, *were* . I was asking why you would choose a Duron now.
@@incandescentwithrage "applebred cache unlocking" It was 20 years ago, I remember using an automotive conductive marker used to repair a broken heating element on the rear window. I think the mod unlocked the full 128kb of cache rather than the default 64kb. Overclocking culture back then was to buy the cheapest stuff and overclock and mod it to the maximum which was so much fun. XP-M chips were the best out of all the amd cpus of the era.
@@Dale-TND Thanks, I didn't know that at all, but a Google search shows it to be true.
I used AMD from K6 to Phenom and thought I knew all the tricks, but apparently not!
Messing with computer parts I know how compatibility issues can cause headaches and it is worse when you don't know what's wrong. Keep up the great work Phil :)
I'd like to see a comparison of Pentium 4 boards using the different RAM, including the SD, DDR, and Rambus memory. Not sure if I've ever seen a single CPU tested across different boards with varying memory types. I have a socket 423 Pentium 4 Alienware computer that also throws a curve ball into the Pentium 4 nostalgia. That socket lasted just a few months it seemed. Great video Phil... love this adventure down the Pentium 4 rabbit hole.
wait they made a Pentium 4 Celeron oh man they fucked up worse then I had thought🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The second PC we had, and also, it was the first PC I bought on my onw money has a P4i65G motherboard, I still have that machine. It's my go-to machine when I need to do something on a WinXP machine. However I'm using it with a little more capable CPU, I have a Pentium 4 with Hyper-threading clocking at around ~3.0ish GHz (I believe it's a Northwood), I played more demanding games like NOLF2, Doom3 and Painkiller with an Nvidia 7600 GS. It wasn't the most powerful machine when I bought it in 2006 but I was having so much fun with it! Also, I was using it for my college studies, of course...
I love Shogo!
Hello Phil, I am not sure if its only me, but there is some static noise in right channel of audio. About the Tachyon, slowly approach landing zone and there should be text over screen and then press Use Key (i think it was Enter).
It’s not only you, there’s quite noticeable static.
Yea Noticed it after it was too late...
Always shocked how much hardware Drakan takes to run at 60FPS. It came out in 99 so I had to be running it on my TNT2.
I still remember how painfully was using northwood 1.7 ghz celeron with 128 cache and 400 fsb in early 10s. But when i upgraded old riva tnt 2 to geforce 2 mx400 all games i needed ran smoothly. It was windows xp and gigabyte 845 motherboard with 512mb sdram pc133
You were using Northwood in the 2010s? I had an i7 by then :P
same, I had a system that used a 2.4ghz northwood celeron, I "upgraded" it to a scrap 1.6ghz p4 willamette. realistically the celeron was completely useless in even basic use, the instant you had more than a fresh install of windows xp you got 100% cpu idles. it really was that bad. the P4 at least ran a web browser better, which was the biggest issue at that point. this PC also had only PCI slots, and while I later got an "upgrade" PCI based FX 5200... most of it's life was spent with intel 845 "Extreme" graphics.
this was in the late 2010s, I was a broke kid without a choice, anything to make the PC a little less intolerable was worth it. but man that system was such a piece of trash.
@@hburke7799 Yeah, I remember I once installed win xp sp3 on several celeron 2.1(16*133) and Celeron 2600 (26*100) northwood . I only installed drivers and god it was slow on a clean system. I instantly felt that animation of menus was not smooth. Never had experience with this platform before, and I was amazed how bad it was. Then I installed win xp sp3 on athlon like 1600+ or 1900+ and it was so much better. Even Celeron M 1600 was a lot better than northwood, though it had 100mz FSB vs 133 on northwood and athlon. Celeron 2600 (26*100) was garbage.
1:40 - Tom's Hardware evidently got some $$$ from Intel to review the Celeron and P4 in a favorable way. Many hardware companies payed PC Magazines, Sites, reviewers a lot of money to show their products in a positive way. I remember in my country Romania back in 1999 and after the PC Magazines that were full of nvidia comercials always said (ridiculosly) that the TNT2's were by far the best video cards in every aspect and that the Voodoo 3's are outdated, slow, with bad image quality etc even though just a year earlier in 1998 when they didn't have nvidia comercials they praised 3dfx and recomanded mostly 3dfx cards V1, V2 and Banshee. That totally changed when the nvidia comercials appeared in their magazine.
These days companies get called out right away but back in the day you wouldn't have known...
Shogo was really good for what it was. I would love to see a next gen version of the concepts in that game.
Titanfall!
Another lovely breakfast with Phil's! I loved that Celeron. It was one of the best overclockers on the planet. I held the world record for about 3 hours on the day we all figured this out. Good Times.
The compatibility thing you mentioned at the end is a huge deal. I have an Athlon-based system with a VIA chipset, and it was a nightmare getting things (like my sound card) running correctly. Totally different experience from back in the day where my sound hardware simply worked. Come to think of it, I was all Intel back then, so maybe that's why. I need to just build another machine and put a P4 or Celeron in it.
Cold sweats just thinking about all the issues I've had with sound cards (Creative, Aureal, Philips, Yamaha) on VIA boards...ugh!
I was starting to hate these issues until the nforce chipsets came out and made the best improvement to AMD boards until the AMD chipsets finally released. Those Intel chipsets From i440bx onward deserve the praise they get, they were just simply better.
Sometimes via chipsets worked good, sometimes don't. They are picky about your hardware and drivers. But if you have all the right stuff they work good and normally have more options than other chipsets (like ISA slots, dual memory (ddr and sdr) etc. i like via for that.
Ofc nforce2 were much more stable chipset, but for a windows 98 machine we want a soundblaster card in a isa slot and the last motherboards with isa were via chipset.
When you figure out all configs needed, via chipset works good.
If you haven't figured it out already, you dock in Tachyon by pressing the enter key after you land on the pad and receive the clearance message.
AMD must be super grateful for Intel for the Netburst CPUs, after all they got 5 or so years of dominance because of it before Intel got their stuff together and made Core.
Yes that did the trick!
3:30 Austria Australia jokes never get old
The Netburst architecture was intel in desperation to compete with AMD with frequency (not IPC). They had the excellent Pentium III Coppermine which was outperformed in IPC by AMD Athlon. So Intel had to build something that could deliver workflow with sheer frequency (but lower efficiency)
Netburst idealy was not designed with gaming in mind. But the P4 models with decent cache, was okay. But still got beaten in gaming by AMD Athlon XP (and later 64), even with lower frequency.
Heyyyyy a video on NetBurst Celerons!
Not great CPUs performance wise considering the time period they came out and the competition, but they hold a special place in my heart, because the first computer I ever used was a Compaq Presario S4000NX with a 2.4Ghz Northwood Celeron, integrated Intel 845GL "extreme" graphics that I later upgraded to an FX 5500 PCI, and 128MB DDR RAM (probably single channel) that was expanded to 1GB later.
Was perfectly fine for flash games and emulating anything up to a Nintendo 64. I never messed with AAA PC titles back in the day admittedly.
The PC that replaced it for me around 2011 had a Celeron Dual Core E1500 at 2.2Ghz or something along those lines.
That was pretty bad. On my Pentium III 1000/133 with Radeon9100, Expendable runs on 85 FPS (640x480)
Yup I was really surprised seeing that game struggle...
We had something like those in school, HPs with celeron from the P4 era, the only positive part was that it was a basic sysadmin course, so we had full admin access and could do anything we wanted apart from the rest of the school :)
My school had celerons 2.4. They worked good in windows 2000 in 2004/2005. When they upgraded to XP became very slow, was a great performance penalty the XP upgrade.
@@sjogosPT yeah, ours was probably from that time and got into our classroom when the rest of the school upgraded,
But 1.7 GHz if I don't missremember.
The rest of the school had shiny new core 2 duos with windows 7, we could use those, but with severely locked down accounts and a couple of hundred megabytes of network storage quota.
I totally agree with your Netburst comments. I built my first PC with an Athlon XP 1800+ in 2002, and felt like I was hot stuff, and I sure was right! Later on I upgraded to a XP 2500+, and i felt like hot stuff then too! The point you make near the end for having a slower pc than an athlon64 for shogo to work properly is fascinating.
My first PC I ever bought with my own money, before I learned how to build my own, was a Netburst Celeron PC. I think it was a 1.8Ghz. I upgraded the RAM to 512MB and added a PCI FX5200, as there was no AGP slot and it was all I could find locally before the days where people could buy online. I remember playing that Microsoft rally racing game and thinking it was amazing. I later realized my PC was a hunk of junk and started building my own that didnt suck.
It is really fun (in a twisted way). The Celeron was nothing more (or less) than a cost optimized Pentium 4. It fared slightly worse than a Duron due to the way the cache operated and the latency impact of a missed branch prediction, but it was still sold in probably hundreds of thousands of computers. Overall, it saved Intel money and was popular enough with OEMs. The end-user never mattered.
Yeah on Pentium 4/Celeron Expandable likes cache size as much as Quake 3 likes memory bandwith. It's the same with Duron vs. Athlon but not to that extent.
In the beginning the celeron was further slowed down because OEMs used SD-RAM Boards for a long time until they switched to DDR266 .
Via chipsets are needed if you want to use YMF7x4 or ES1938 cards. They also allow AGP 3.3V (Voodoo 3-4-5) cards. If I recall correctly, Intel chipsets were AGP 1.5V for P4 and those retro friendly PCI sound cards won’t work in pure DOS. That’s why I went VIA for socket 478. For Windows 98, there are other options (P3 with 815 chipset, Athlon XP with a multitude of chipsets, A64 the same). One suggestion as alternative PC to this one: Asus A7S333 socket 462. It has a SIS chipset, runs with Voodoos and I think they run well with the YMF7x4 or ES1938 cards. Thanks for another great video Phil
My first PC was a Celeron D. I believe it had 256kb l2 cache ( or no cache at all🤔) and no gpu.
Man vice city lagged at 640x480
Yeah Celeron D had 256kb L2. But back then the integrated GPUs (Intel, SiS or S3/Via) on the mainboards were slow, some games even refused to run at all.
@@RetroScorp it was a via mobo with a sis north bridge. Had an AGP slot which was never populated.
Really looking forward for the comparison to the P4 2.8Ghz benchmark! I really stayed myself out from the Pentium 4 back in the days, but nowadays these are the more common CPU I am ending in the random computer cases I buy from local auctions and marketplace. Also I may try SDRAM versus DDRAM on one of my Pentium 4 (mounted on a PC-Chips SIS chipset :p).
I remember! an Athlon XP at 2000 MHz was capable to (roughly, without SSE2) play UA-cam videos while a Northwood Celeron overclocked to 3200 MHz cannot.
I still have an old 478 2.4 GHz Celeron here as a test PC. I always use it to test DDR and SD RAM modules as well as AGP and sometimes PCI hardware. Runs standard moderately with a Radeon 9600 and 1 GB RAM with XP and 98 in dual boot. Also ideal for testing old software. I could have swapped it for a better one, but I didn't feel like swapping it because it's just not that important.
I had one of these, the 1.2ghz version back in the 00's I 'upgraded' from my old pentium 166mmx with 16mb of ram to this with 128mb.
I didn't know anything about computers back then other than bigger number better ( I was 13-14)
It was by far the worst computer I have ever had, it could barely run windows XP and couldn't even manage 30fps on the windows media player visualisations!
Nice jump - I went from a 233MMX to a PIII 800 in 2000, which within a month became a 933, then a 1 Ghz. I kept that until 2005 and got a P4 2.6, then that became a 3.0 HT. I seem to recall those P4s were pretty good chips.
Nice to see that you also used the Winfast A250, mine does an excellent job in my W98 rig 👍🏻
I have the two fan version btw but they aren't too noisy but had to replace the 'spongey' dust filters since they changed into powder almost 😂
Great video Phil.Funny thing still have my Pentuim 4 celeron 1.7 ghz on my test bench.Running tests on my old Voodoo 3 3000 ,Matrox 8 meg and thenold ATI 4 meg card they bring up some interesting results. Been 45 years today the computer sector.Never liked new tech i am old school love Reto stuff.
Cheers from Turkey mate.
Thank you Phil. That was really intereting. I always went with AMD so Intel tech always passed me by. Even tho’ I was aware of their iterations the Netburst Celeron meets its expectations to a limit like any other processor, but as ever the marketing over sold its abilities and let people down. I would use one today as the competitive b/s doesn’t matter any more. I just need to know that a cpu will perform as I need it to for the games I want to play. If it doesn’t I’ll just build a newer system.
Yeah they're not real great. On the other hand, they come as standard in a ton of Dell Dimensions which are dirt cheap. The dimensions only have PCI slots, so would need something like a Voodoo 2 to compliment the onboard Intel graphics.
Figured out that the onboard sound in that chipset has Soundblaster compatibility without fm or midi. Perhaps something worth experimenting with using Serdaco's LPT cards?
These machines in the right setup could be excellent cheap first steps into retro gaming. I also know for a fact they seem to respond well to sound cards like the Yamaha PCI cards you featured years ago.
Always love these type of videos. Brings back a lot of memories. Keep 'em up !!!
Thanks! Will do!
we were young and naive
Sage Wisdom:
"I already have no hair, and don't wanna lose anymore"
Happy Philday viewers!
I like you are working also and often with just a normal hardware one can get without "selling his liver and kindeys.".👍 And I like workin with the hardware which was common and available. When it comes on P4 I have got a system based on socket 423 and it has 1.7Ghz CPU and the infamous RAMBUS memory 🤪. The PC is badly abused and the original SCSI HDD is unfortunately missing 😢. It needs a lot of work to look good again. Anyway I am looking forward to see what this beast can do!
When i was child we had prebuilds at family, Packard Bell with celeron (2.8, 512ram, 160hdd, 9200se) and later hp compaq d330ut (2.8 p4, 1gb ram and dont remember the rest). It is only like 15 years ago so not that long to be honest! These spaceheaters does have special place in my heart for some reason. Have been looking parts to build that era Win XP machine but prices have come up and hard to find locally anymore (versus, few years ago you could find this kind on stuff from dumpster all day long). Athlon XP is also kinda interesting for me. Let’s hope that some beautiful day i got opportunity to build my dream pc of that era! I have been thinkering around c2d/c2q machines for long time but they feel ”too new” for me.
I think you should also check the Celeron D. Maybe it won't perform as bad as I expect.
I really like GOG. I had quite a lot of old games which i transfer to WinXP or Win98 PC. Even new games on GOG runs better like The Witcher 3, Cyberpunk 2077 because no drm. What's about Shogo, every game on first version of Lithtech engine to Lithtech Jupiter from NOLF2 having much higher than 60 fps will do problems with scripts, physics and can crashing much often.
I have straight PTSD seeing that ASRock board. The store I worked for sold hundreds of ASRock based systems and they were absolute garbage. Terrible performance, terrible drivers, terrible audio, crashes, dead boards... The only selling point was that it included their stupid modem card which saved $20 for low-end builds. In 2003, our low-end desktops were only $280 with no O,S so it was actually added value. This intel i865 board was better than the VIA/SIS 478 boards, but still very low quality.
it's good for testing because ICH5 troubles are solved by then and unlike many 865 it can do willamette northwood and prescott
ASRock garbage? I assume you didn't try motherboards from ECS or Epox. ASRock even in those days was rock solid. It was budget-value brand of ASUS, related also to Pegatron, which are used in many OEMs
@@tennickjestzajety69 I certainly can't call them rock solid at that time. Sure they were "budget value", and they got there by using "budget" components. Just because they are made by the same company doesn't mean they were made to the same standards. Our store never got ECS or Epox while I was there.
Thanks for sharing! From what I've experienced ASRock has always worked well for me. I also like how their support pages are still online.
Hi Phil there is a hum in the audio throughout this video, not really noticeably on desktop speakers but awful on my headphones.
I think its unfortunate and inevitable future of these old games as even GOG wont be able to maintain them forever, especially those which are less known. Thats why game preservation laws needs to be updated, people should never rely on piracy to be able to enjoy video games. But i dont see it changing anytime soon unfortunately😮💨
Yeah, there are games on GOG that no longer work on new operating systems. Like the game "Incoming" where you specifically have to use 12 year old nvidia drivers for it to work and be on Windows XP-7. Going forward I think there needs to be an online store that offers a client with some sort of emulation software but I could imagine the legal nightmare of using Microsoft's old OS code to get it working.
I had the Celeron D 346 for two years (2005 - 2007) and the thing was sloooooooooow. Anyway I miss those days
Great video, but what is that static noise?
Would love to see the final iteration of the Pentium 4 called "Cedar Mill"
They would go as high as 3.6Ghz (Pentium 4 HT 661)
This video already exists and it’s recent. ua-cam.com/video/G8ggguqZTtk/v-deo.htmlsi=iRMVP4BBj15OrRY2
I just covered it in the channel!!
Mate, love the content as always but there's a bit of feedback hum on your mic
Working on it
i have old s478 2ghz celeron that i use to harvest pins to fix other cpu's.
week ago i used its pins to repair ryzen 1700
Interesting, what process do you use?
@@MrBonesawzall brutal one lol.
I cut the pins out with a knife, so that some of the base with solder is still with the pin.
Then i just drop it in the socket where it needs to be.
The soft solder gives and forms to the remenants of the original pin.
Best one ive had was an 1800x with 14 broken pins, took me several tries but i got it working.
Overcloked it to 4.1ghz and had 3400mhz cl14 ram, it worked withouth a hitch for 5 years in my main pc until the cpu finally died due to way, wayy too much overvoltage in everything lol
@NuffMan_ sounds like your technique worked well! What do you use to solder the pins without disturbing the neighboring pins?
@@MrBonesawzall i dont
Thanks for another video :)
Just switched jobs, cant wait to get back to where I can sign up to be a patron
Awesome, thank you!
You should compare one of Northwoods hyperthreaded models to the P4 2.8 as well.
I've beaten that game a few times and docking in that game has always been hard and a little glitchy, you basically need to maneuver in different spots over the platform very slowly as slow as possible and just keep hitting enter. It does prompt you with text on the screen when you can dock but it has a weird bug in the hit detection for the landing zone that they never patched, if you see "Cleared to land" pop up on your screen hit enter as fast as you can. honestly in any of the missions where you need to doc its a pain but if you keep trying you will eventually get it. Some people suggest you need to point the nose of your ship strait down at it if there are lights and get close, I've always found stopping and going just going over it over and over again It would eventually let me dock but its always been fussy. Sometime you just need to move away from the platform and go back to it several times and sometimes you get lucky and hit it on the first try. sometime just turning the ship while its at a dead stop over the platform does it too, there is just no rhyme or reason to when it works or doesn't, its just shear luck but if you keep trying nonmatter how bad your luck is eventually you will get it due to shear probability. All that said its a good game with two ways to win either as a Galspan loyalist or as a rebel fighting against Galspan and I recommend doing both routes as they have related but very different stories and missions.
Yea I'm playing Galspan now. The docking worked. Hitting Enter did the trick!
Long-time fan of the content, not sure if anyone else has mentioned this but I hear a high-pitched buzzing in your recent videos that I assume comes from the microphone being used. This is mainly in the right audio channel in these HD600s.
Yes Insolved it afterwards but the recording was already ruined...
@@philscomputerlab Glad to hear it was solvable; I wouldn't want to throw out a completed recording either
Happy Friday Phil 😊
Same to you!
@@philscomputerlab thanks 😊
Way back in 2008-9 we had a "network status log server" (Cacti on Linux). The boss didn't want to help us acquire the hardware ("I don't need it, you do"), so we made it ourselves from scrap, err, parts found around the shop. First it was Celeron D, way above 2GHz, and it was struggling, with 100% CPU usage all the time. It couldn't finish querying network appliances within 5 minutes, before next query would start. Ended up frying some capacitors around the CPU socket (capacitor plague times, and there was plenty of hot air blown on them from the heat sink).
We replaced it with some dual-Athlon MP machine, after modding two Athlon XP-M CPUs to 2000MHz at 1.55V by soldering some bridges. The chipset was AMD 760MP. Tyan Thunder, with Tiger's BIOS, approved by Tyan technical support. It got 1GB of DDR-266 RAM (single stick, single channel), and it could query the entire network within 3 minutes, without breaking a sweat. Fun times 😸
Dunno if people mentioned already, there is some background noise in the video.
Not sure if you have tried Oni. It's a first person 3D shooter (open GL, I believe) by Bungie between Marathon and Halo, and has really fun hand-to-hand combat mechanics
The good old socket plug, I've taken the IHS off these to use with other procs.
The best P4s were the Northwood cores. Prescott was a joke at best but it DID get it into LGA 775 and pushed them up to 3.8 Ghz. The Willamette cores were also woefully underpowered and under clocked.
Willamette was an extremely rudimentary version of the Netburst architecture, almost like a "proof of concept". Northwood corrected many of its problems. It had bigger cache, Hyper Threading on later models and FSB speed bumps. Even if Netburst has an abysmal reputation today, I'd still say Northwood P4s are good CPUs.
Prescott had so many architectural improvements over Northwood, like SSE3, far better branch prediction, 90 nm node, improvements in Hyper Threading, a bigger L2 cache, a bigger L1 cache (it was hugely necessary), better scheduling algorithms, 64 bit support later on, etc. It's just a SHAME none of those could stop that goddamn 31-staged pipeline from slowing everything down. Sometimes, Prescott had even less performance than Northwood clock-for-clock. God. Why.
If they just did a "Northwood 2" with all the Prescott improvements except for the pipeline increase (or even one with 21 stages would be alright), they would get so much more IPC. So much of a better product to compete with the Athlon 64. "But NOPE, clock speed is all we're doing." However, I think it would have less TDP and wouldn't be a space heater. Altogether, they could have probably hit 3.80 GHz or even 4.00 GHz. It's all just a huge shame.
They uh, they did hit 3.8 Ghz on their final P4 Extreme. @@yukinagato1573 They are still cost prohibitive today and very rare.
I remember when my eldest brother bought a PC back in 2003 which came with a Netburst Celeron at 1.7GHz and boy was I told by a family friend that my brother got ripped off. It was a cheapo family PC tho, as it only had a lowly Acorp board with a VIA chipset and no discrete GPU. The most I could run on it was older Windows 9x games.
Back in 2005 I attended to a Cisco traning and we had Laptops with 2.0GHz Celis. For telnet and RS232 it was good but for more not really. Multitasking? Please not. When you rebench S478 you might add P4 2.0A, and P4 2,53GHz to show the benefit of the Northwood Core and FSB533. You might also try Celerons with Prescott Core. Only 256kb L2 Cache but the very long pipeline and high power draw.
Haha it probably would be too slow to run packet tracer. Only putty could run 😂
In 2005 we trained with real hardware. So only teraterm and putty were needed.@@excess.subiefl0w
0:05 - oh nooooo, my old motherboard!!!!
Back then I had the p III 750 to 1133 and the GeForce 2 mx 400 to fx5500 . Wasn't till late 2006 when I went to an athlon 64 3500 with an hd 2400 pro but it was just my roommate, his dad and one other guy that didn't have P4's
Weird how much the cache affects on Netburst. With K7, even the Duron with its tiny 64kB of L2 is still more capable than you may think and it's not that bad when compared to a full Athlon/Athlon XP.
I am glad to see you playing more games now Phil. For example, I didn't know anything about Tachyon: The Fringe beyond the name, but seeing it on the channel made me want to play it myself.
Unfortunate that relatively few games had built-in benchmarks, so those games get all the attention in the retro hobby (which is actually very understandable--we are comparing hardware)
In many games a few slowdowns aren't a big deal I feel. But if you want it's nice building something to get 60 fps locked at all times. It's a very smooth feeling.
To dock at stations, slow down, get close to the pad and press enter
I played quite a few hours of tachyon: the fringe. Got it at random in the store because the box looked cool.
If i recall i played it on a p2 with a 16 meg TNT gpu and the ol classic Microsoft sidewinder.
At least Intel was aware of the issues with Netburst and they made Pentium M and Celeron M. In 2006 I've bought laptop with Celeron M 380 and with 1.6 GHz clock it had similar performance to 2.4 GHz Pentium 4 using much less energy. My first and only Celeron that I've used in my main (for time being) computer.
Anyway Intel never managed to made Celeron brand consistent. It should be entry-level CPU that should remain useful for lightweight task. Unfortunately it almost never delivered that. Celeron's were either too slow for any use or they were too good for their price, often having comparable performance to more expensive CPUs.
OH GOD I thought I escaped this evil 18 years ago; what a nightmare that you made me remember.
😀
Back in the day, the joke was always "If you want a headache get an AMD CPU" and I always found that to be true.
When I was around 12 years old I tried to play NFS Hot Pursuit 2 on a resort hotel's public PC. It had a Willamette Celeron 1.7 with 845G integrated video, and what a nightmare it was to play NFSHP2 in single digits frame rate. Even the crippled TNT2 Model 64 could do better.
A Williamette celeron on socket 478 @ 1.7ghz was the first ever computer i engaged with.
That Tachyon game gives me Wing Commander flashbacks.
Absolutely!
There are a couple of benchmarks that really hit the Netburst-128 CPUs hard. 3DMark 2000 is by far the worst - a 1GHz Coppermine PIII will actually outperform a Celeron 2.6 in this particular benchmark. Doom III, 3DMark01SE, UT2004, SuperPi aren't quite as nasty as 3DMark 2000, but also run quite poorly on Netburst-128. These CPUs are actually a little worse under XP, since NT OSes are a little more sensitive to cache-starved CPUs than Win 9x.
HI Phil good material, but you need better work with audio, on right chanel Im hear buzzz in all lenght of video. Something interfrrencing with your sound recording devices.
Working on it
i have good memories of my good old p4 2,4 ghz on northwood core. but i was a kid back then with almost no computer knowledge 😅
You are so right about Steam. I won't buy there anymore because I don't accept being forced into the latest Windows version.
We should not trust GOG blindly either, maybe some day they'll sell the store and the new owners change the conditions - who knows?
Therefore I store backups of all installation files of my GOG games (currently 770 games 🙂). In case of any issue I'll still have these copies.
the only thing that it was good for was overclocking it to over 2ghz and then it got close to the performance of an actual pentium 4 at 1.7ghz.
The pretty much all of the Netburst based Celeron's were awful. There were some later ones that were decent but only when overclocked. The lack of L2 is much more of a hindrance to performance in that Netburst architecture. Bumping up the FSB can help somewhat but not nearly as much as it could in the previous generations of Celerons (which I had owned back then.)
Netburst is the generation is when I jumped ship to AMD for a few years. I was knowledgeable enough that the quirks of the AMD platform at that time were no big deal for me. The performance of the Athlon XP chips (I had an 1800+ and a 2500+ OC'd to 3200+ speeds) served me well for several years.
It has been interesting to me to experience the back and forth rivalry between Intel and AMD ever since the 386 days. I've gone back and forth between their chips & platforms many times in my primary PCs over the decades!
Cedar mill celeron is still bad, just get a pentium 4 from the same architecture.
GOG is great. I think I speak for almost all millenial age and older gamers when I say that site is a goddamn public service. Most of what I play is newer, but those times I've had the itch for a game I played as a teenager GOG's got me 9/10 times. There's some obscure stuff on there too.
earliest Pentium 4s were slower even than AMD's Durons. I had both and did several benchmarks at the time. Later, AMD lauched the Atlhon 64 x2 which literally destroyed anything Intel had. Good old days.
I was excited for the P4 line of cpu's until I got one, the Willamette core was terrible, almost turned me off of them entirely. The Northwood, then Prescott made so much of an improvement even if they still were not up to expectations they were at least usable.
I have played most novalogic games from that era delta force 1 and 2, armored fist 3, comanche 4. I had never heard of Tachyon until I saw it in one of your earlier videos and I cant believe that because I also love Bruce Campbell so that game would be right up my alley, thanks for introducing that to me. I really like shogo too because even though the critical hit system can be kind of unfair it is so cool in many other ways. I like the mecha sections and thought it was a good FPS for the time despite some flaws. I really enjoy your videos and I am glad to have discovered your channel. I knew about your website from the tutorials but had no idea you were also making videos. 😅 I also am dropping support for steam and I have had an account for 18 years not as long as some people but its still old enough to vote in Canada 😂 I was planning on making a big forum post and rant on there soon here.
I really like one of the Delta Force Games but didn't play much. The first level had a spynx or pyramid I believe...
@@philscomputerlab yep thats land warrior probably the best one in the series. I never got the full version till it came out on gog but Egypt was the demo level. The one I spent the most time playing was 2 on novaworld though. It had amazing multiplayer for the time, had a server browser baked in, supported up to 50 players and ran super smooth on a dialup connection.
I want to finish Tachyon The Fringe and then I can check out the Delta Force games :D@@SevenCompleted
I forgot those even existed. The early p4 was already the p3 and athlon xp's celeron. I had a duron overclocked to 1 ghz at the time
I still remember when this junk came out. I was still early in my glorious IT career and the company was ordering IBM desktops. The build nerds where excited to see this new P4.. it came in on some IBM desktop with SDR 133mhz ram.. they where such a dog.
I wouldn't say that it's unfair to benchmark using sdram. When Intel released the first Willamette Celeron on socket 423 there was two Intel chipsets available, the i850 supporting rdram and i845 supporting sdram. Very few people combined expensive rdram with a celeron.
Later on VIA released the P4X266 chipset with DDR support, but one of the reasons for buying an Intel CPU was using Intel chipsets. Right before socket 423 got superseded by socket 478, Intel finally released the 845D with DDR support.
tl;dr, early adopters of the Willamette Celeron ran sdram. It's worth benchmarking just to see what low cost alternative Intel replaced P3 based systems with.
The thing with Steam you mentioned at the end, I am surprised that nobody talks about that.
I do understand that you want to play games on retro systems but you have to understand that they HAVE to update it to avoid vulnerabilities on their platform.
Given that Steam is based on Chromium (which means it is just a browser), it was just a moment of time that they will drop support for old systems.
I would like to have an alternative like GOG does but on Steam so older systems do still have support even if its indirect support. Some games do have that like Half Life 2.
I, in no way promote DRM but I do promote security above anything else and the fact that we can still play these older games on newer systems speaks volume.
Older systems will still have their place even long after end of support, not only as mark of history but also as for the time best and most stable systems many remember it to be.
This is why I still keep that Bliss wallpaper around.
Great video, never knew that there are other CPUs with Netburst outside of Pentium 4.
Yea we have to be realistic. It just sucks as I spent a lot of money in steam and have good memories that are now stained...
@@philscomputerlab Can you explain that more? I would like to know what you mean with "stained".
Is it that its not the same experience like it used to be? Or that you lose control over your purchase?
I am curious to know.
Because Steam was awesome but now it's not.
the processor was cheaper than $90 at the start, without problems with AMD core fragility, with DDR memory, I sold hundreds of these computers for less than $500 with the ability to play all games. y'all look at these processors from 2023 and say they were slow, but they were cheap, cpu+mb was cheaper then tualatin one and work with ddr memory
Aside from all the pan and fried egg jokes back then, NetBurst was easy to overclock and particularly suitable for beginners(or for chefs and countries with harsh winters). Socket 462/370 CPUs at that time hadn't thermal protection or overvoltage protection, which is why many of them died horribly from overclocking attempts. Like mentiont a solid and save CPU for Win98 games. 😁
Netburst CPUs belong in the trash - unless you just feel like wasting a huge amount of energy doing absolutely nothing. There are lots of other retro systems that will do the job better than any NetBust garbage.
I love the buzz sound in the background its just like the 90s
I don't 🤣 Some issue with the microphone...
I don't need to watch the video to know what happens when you laser off all the cache from a Netburst, I had a couple of these back in the day. They were absolutely miserable to use!
I think there are microsoft flight simulator back in early 2000. You should considered to play it Phil.
Oh I struggle with flight Sims actually. GOG dies have quite a few though...
The Asrock i65G boards have been my fave P4 boards for Windows 98 so far, though i do have an i915P board to try soon. With all of the talk of P4 heat issues, inefficient pipelines and pipeline stalls, I'm yet to experience or notice anything of a problem in ongoing use of these systems as an end user (both now, and back in the day).
That being said, I'm yet to build a PIII system - are we being perhaps too focused on the technical aspects of running these systems in the modern day? I manage the hear with a Zalman cooler on my socket 478, and a Cougar Helor AIO water cooler on the 775, beyond this do we have any real world worries? Interested in your thoughts.
Pick the right CPU! Not all are high TDP and then an average and quiet cooler will be sufficient...
@@philscomputerlab yeh currently Im running a 3.0E on the 478 board, and a 651 on the 775. I've also tried a 2.40A, an early 1.6 Williamette, and a late 2.8 Northwood and beyond just flat performance differences which I would expect from the lower clocks, I hadn't noticed any other issues. I do wonder though how the 1.4Ghz P3 compares to the early 1.3Ghz and 1.5Ghz P4s
Yep, Netburst Celeron's were slower than Durons, but they were safer and survived work without fan after cool down.
I've experienced bad failure after AMD CPU burned, died almost everything, even HDD...
Shogo is awesome for what it is but the hitscanners are BS, they shoot you through the door before is completely opened. I still enjoy the game a lot but quick save/load is a must because of the broken AI unforts.
10:51 Since this game seems to take its cues from Wing Commander, and Freespace - perhaps you need docking clearance before approaching the station?
So it turns out you need to press Return key to dock!