A multi-great grandfather, Abram Wohleben, fought at Oriskany. He was wounded, scalped and left for dead. He survived and found his way to the American forces. He was married to General Herkimer's niece and later had children. The Tory and Indian forces were led by Col. John Butler. The Butlers and other Anglo-Irish who had lived in the Mohawk Valley had chosen the King. The mostly German settlers like the Herkimers and my ancestor chose the revolution. Col. Butler is my wife's ancestor. History makes strange bedfellows.
My multi -great grandfather who fought at Oriskany along with other family members who where also from the Mohawk valley. I also had Tory family members.
What do you know about Abram Wohleben's wife, Dorethea? I have a theory that she was born a Bellinger, and also the widow of a Bellinger, who had a child (my ancestor) John Frederick Bellinger born in June 1773. I suspect that she married Abram Wohleben after her husband (John Frederick Bellinger 1749-1777) died at the Battle of Oriskany ( and her son was raised by his paternal relatives).
Spent three years on the USS Oriskany CVA 34. I knew of the battle and Herkimer (The name of the publication I helped put out) but never knew much of the details. Thanks for this marvelous video!!!
Oriskany was almost the Teutoburg forest of the patriots. Ny is full of battle sites and forts you can visit. We had 2 years of NY history in Rochester schools and they covered all it pretty well. I hope the same curriculum still exists.
It dosent democrats only filter feed there narrative to the children and are too worried about children being able to change there sex so they can get there votes when there 18.
Great video, I’ll share this to help your channel grow cause a lot of people with tons of subscribers don’t make videos this good and educational. Thank you
Excellent production,my wife’s family lost four men at the battle,Fredrick Schnell, George Schnell, Jacob Schnell, Johan Schnell, they were palatine Germans that migrated around 1700 on English ships ,They had to work off their Passage so the English treated them as de facto salves for many years ,after the battle the Iroquois had a killing spree against the civillians the Schnells lost a mother and baby. Not all Oneida fought on the patriot side , the Thames band of the Oneida sided with the English and live in Ontario today ,many of the descendants of the snells still live in the area and have a family reunion at the family church in snells bush every year, some of the New York Oneidas still live on there traditional reservation and are probably one of the wealthiest Indian tribes in the country there are only about 300 and they run a huge Casino and resort. They also tried to evict the landowners in their traditional reservation with a land claim law suit which failed when the Supreme Court ruled against them 8- 1 ,the bulk of the Oneida live in Wisconsin,
My wife has traced my ancestry to the same Schnell family in Snell's Bush, Stoney Arabia but from a Maria (5 times grandmother), born 1708 in Haxey Lincolnshire England. The family appear to have arrived in England soon after 1700 from Mannheim Germany with several children born here prior to the move to New York state. It appears that several of her siblings also remained in England whilst the parents left with 6 children. The names Johan/Johannes are often repeated and cause some difficulty in specific cases but it would appear that there were 3 descendents - Jacob, Johannes and Suffrenus killed at Oriskany in my family tree. There were successful applications for membership of the Sons of the American Revolution made in 1967 that my wife has discovered along with several other references to the Schnell's history in the Mohawk Valley. It is very interesting to know that there are still distant relatives still living and meeting up there.
@@Mikell-h2c I think that he might have a point there. Johan Snell would be like John Smith. Maria, left in England, married a man with the surname Jacques which is the equivalent of Smith in France, all if which, present challenges to my wife's research into our ancestry.
Grew up in South Utica. The inscription on that Oriskany monument is quite moving -- the locals suffered terrible losses. Greetings from southern Calif, where I've lived for 40 years. "You can take the boy out of Utica, but you can't take the Utica" ete. etc.
Great job in covering this little known battle of the revolution. Another fun fact about the battle is that the Senecas suffered heavy casualties and many of their chiefs were killed, this hardened their resolve to keep fighting for the British and seek revenge for their heavy losses.
Avoid Civil War at all costs? Yes, Amen. War is sin and civil war is the cruelist of wars. Thanks for your video. well reseached and excellently presented. Thanks. DOUG out
@@LocalNYhistoryYes. I'm in PA next door. There's some potential for a good video if you dive into investigating what the Seneca did to the Eriez in the early 1630s. They were genocided so bad that the only historical accounts are from what the Iroquois and Seneca told and I found two conflicting accounts of why that war started from allegedly the same side. Because there was no other side left. If not for missionaries trying to make contact with the Eriez, history wouldn't even know them.
I had 3 ancestors at the battle, Pvt. Andreas Clapsaddle, Capt. Henry Harter, and Lt. Col. Frederick P. Bellinger. Andreas lost two brothers, Maj. Augustinus and kid brother Pvt. Jakob. Another brother Pvt. Wilhelm was also there. Brother, Johannes, was was not at the battle but was killed and scalped three years later outside of Herkimer, NY. The Lt. Col. was taken as a POW. He was a distant cousin of Col. Peter Bellinger, who helped reorganize the troops after the original assault.
My 5th and 6th great-grandfathers, Henry Frank Sr. and Henry Frank Jr. survived the battle. Henry Sr. married Gertrude Clapsaddle ( Geertruid Klebsattel). They settled Ashford NY not to far where I live. My grand mother was a Frank.
Indeed, I agree that it will surely start of as this. Though I think that will be the general start to it, once key figures appear and leaders step forward I believe geographical dividing lines will be formed then.
Nice video. What were your sources for the Indian involvement, especially on the American side? I had not heard of the specific names previously. I grew up in the area (RFA - 1980), and have studied the local history. That history is fascinating. Perhaps you could consider doing some videos on other topics like the Black River Canal, the Erie Canal as it pertained to the Rome-Utica area, the central NY regiments in the civil war, etc…
@@LocalNYhistory I was interested in the specific source(s) about the Indians that fought with colonists. There is a lot of “new” history now, and I was interested in the dates the source material was written. When I was in the Rome Public School system (1968-1980) we were taught that there were Indians on each side of the conflict; however, you provided a level of detail on specific names that I hadn’t heard before. I’ll likely read the source material to expand my knowledge. Your videos are very interesting, and I look forward to more of them.
Thank you! Cool to know a fellow RFA grad is watching. This is the lecture that got me interested in the first place and where I got a bunch of great insights. Highly recommend: ua-cam.com/video/1YduaW7dr1E/v-deo.html@@vtrack1963
A little local genealogy a number of the sons of Nicholas Pickert/Pichard and Anna Barbara Wieser fought in the Battle of Oriskany, Tryon (later Montgomery Co.) County militia under Col. Cox and Campbell, Bartholmew, John, Jacobus, and Conrad as well as a number of their older sons, a fourth brother Willian was Loyalist in Butler's Rangers. The Pickert brothers were nephews of the famed Indian Agent and frontiersman Conrad Weiser and cousins of Gen. Peter Muhlenberg.
Their daughter Dorothy (my gggg grandmother) married a loyalist and so did their daughter. Oddly, their granddaughter, Rachel Young, married her second cousin, Adam Young, who had fought on the American side. So now there are hundreds of people who can claim they had ancestors on both sides of the battle.
Great use of maps at the macro, gaming images in battle depiction and AI graphics for the presentation of individuals, I reckon you could have used the same technique to support the tactical level fighting, just a thought to possibly enhance your story telling, good Stuff
Thank you! FYI I used Blender for the maps, Midjourney and Myheritage for the AI images, Empire Total War for the battle, and Final Cut Pro X to pull it all together
My 6th great grandfather, Conrad Hause, died that day. He was from German Flats, NY same as Herkimer. I am glad he had some children prior to the war otherwise I wouldn't be here. Thanks for the video.
Two of my 3rd great grand uncle’s fought at Oriskany, George and Jacob Waggoner. George was wounded in a thigh both survived. They are m Mentioned on the Oriskany monument
As a kid, I used to ride my bike through the Oriskany Battle Field. I remember when Fort Stanwicks was reconstructed, and our school took us kids there for a field trip. It wasn't until I was older that I learned the significance of that battle.
I took part in a reenactment when I was a kid in the late 70s . I was discouraged when I talked with my nephews in the 90s who who knew nothing of the battle. .
Excellent. Thank you. Beautiful images. Any chance the entire battlefield (in the forest) can be replanted/restored? Those magnificent old growth trees of the time must have been impressive.
The Onieda traitors were eventually betrayed by the Yankees, and fled to Canada where they live on the Thames River in Ontario. But as descendants of Loyalists some of us remember who stood with us.
@@LocalNYhistory I haven't seen any evidence of his accent one way or another. Children born in America tend not to inherit their parents' and grandparents' accents. In the novel Drums Along the Mohawk, Dr. Petrie says to Herkimer "I forgot you don't speak English decent." His character in the subsequent movie then has a thick German accent. That's probably where the notion came from.
Haha yes sir. What’s interesting is that this revolutionary war had elements of a Civil War, and towards the end of it, a world war once France got involved.
Neighbour against neighbour is CIVIL war by definition and the battle of Oriskany epitomizes that aspect of the American revolution or do you forget that all 'Americans' were British subjects.
@@jamesdiaz793 The colonists were in open rebellion to the crown. They were fighting for independence. They were fighting to establish a new social contract. Had they lost, they would have been known to history as "rebels" and "insurrectionists" having lost what would have been a civil war. Fortunately for the Americans, the colonists won. The monarchy was defeated. History is written by the victor and as such, they were revolutionaries. It was in fact, a revolution, not a civil war.
The Civil War wasn't a tidy division, or whatever you called it, there was plenty of neighbor vs neighbor, especially in West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee.
Sure, but I still think if there is another civil war it will be much more chaotic because there will be no physically defined political boundaries like before. Thanks for watching
You know it’s funny after I recorded the audio for this I really looked into that particular point. Many accounts agree with what you say, but it is not 100%. If I could redo the video, I would have added a “possibly” or something like that. Thanks for watching!
Conrad and Peter Folts from Heidelberg fell there. My direct descendants. We should never loose sight of why they fought and died there ages ago. America for all or nothing at all...
A multi-great grandfather, Abram Wohleben, fought at Oriskany. He was wounded, scalped and left for dead. He survived and found his way to the American forces. He was married to General Herkimer's niece and later had children. The Tory and Indian forces were led by Col. John Butler. The Butlers and other Anglo-Irish who had lived in the Mohawk Valley had chosen the King. The mostly German settlers like the Herkimers and my ancestor chose the revolution. Col. Butler is my wife's ancestor. History makes strange bedfellows.
Time makes not surprising bedfellows.
The bloodiest battle of the revolution. Close quarters hand to hand combat
My multi -great grandfather who fought at Oriskany along with other family members who where also from the Mohawk valley. I also had Tory family members.
What do you know about Abram Wohleben's wife, Dorethea? I have a theory that she was born a Bellinger, and also the widow of a Bellinger, who had a child (my ancestor) John Frederick Bellinger born in June 1773. I suspect that she married Abram Wohleben after her husband (John Frederick Bellinger 1749-1777) died at the Battle of Oriskany ( and her son was raised by his paternal relatives).
Do not know anything about Dorothea.
Spent three years on the USS Oriskany CVA 34. I knew of the battle and Herkimer (The name of the publication I helped put out) but never knew much of the details. Thanks for this marvelous video!!!
Very cool!
Oriskany was almost the Teutoburg forest of the patriots. Ny is full of battle sites and forts you can visit. We had 2 years of NY history in Rochester schools and they covered all it pretty well. I hope the same curriculum still exists.
It dosent democrats only filter feed there narrative to the children and are too worried about children being able to change there sex so they can get there votes when there 18.
My ancestor Lt. James Albert Guinal died in this battle. He left behind a wife and baby. Thanks for sharing this.
Great video, I’ll share this to help your channel grow cause a lot of people with tons of subscribers don’t make videos this good and educational. Thank you
I appreciate that. The channel is pretty new, so I am not surprised. Thank you!
Excellent production,my wife’s family lost four men at the battle,Fredrick Schnell, George Schnell, Jacob Schnell, Johan Schnell, they were palatine Germans that migrated around 1700 on English ships ,They had to work off their Passage so the English treated them as de facto salves for many years ,after the battle the Iroquois had a killing spree against the civillians the Schnells lost a mother and baby. Not all Oneida fought on the patriot side , the Thames band of the Oneida sided with the English and live in Ontario today ,many of the descendants of the snells still live in the area and have a family reunion at the family church in snells bush every year, some of the New York Oneidas still live on there traditional reservation and are probably one of the wealthiest Indian tribes in the country there are only about 300 and they run a huge Casino and resort. They also tried to evict the landowners in their traditional reservation with a land claim law suit which failed when the Supreme Court ruled against them 8- 1 ,the bulk of the Oneida live in Wisconsin,
My wife has traced my ancestry to the same Schnell family in Snell's Bush, Stoney Arabia but from a Maria (5 times grandmother), born 1708 in Haxey Lincolnshire England. The family appear to have arrived in England soon after 1700 from Mannheim Germany with several children born here prior to the move to New York state. It appears that several of her siblings also remained in England whilst the parents left with 6 children. The names Johan/Johannes are often repeated and cause some difficulty in specific cases but it would appear that there were 3 descendents - Jacob, Johannes and Suffrenus killed at Oriskany in my family tree. There were successful applications for membership of the Sons of the American Revolution made in 1967 that my wife has discovered along with several other references to the Schnell's history in the Mohawk Valley. It is very interesting to know that there are still distant relatives still living and meeting up there.
@@johndavenport7281 my wife’s uncle used to say if it wasn’t for the battle of oriskany the snell name would be as common as smith
@@Mikell-h2c I think that he might have a point there. Johan Snell would be like John Smith. Maria, left in England, married a man with the surname Jacques which is the equivalent of Smith in France, all if which, present challenges to my wife's research into our ancestry.
I grew up in Whitesboro and love this history. I now live in Florida but talk about the CNY history to my friends here. Thanks for this!
Awesome! Thanks for watching
Grew up in South Utica. The inscription on that Oriskany monument is quite moving -- the locals suffered terrible losses. Greetings from southern Calif, where I've lived for 40 years. "You can take the boy out of Utica, but you can't take the Utica" ete. etc.
Hey neighbors do you ever come back to the area I'm still here...
Great job in covering this little known battle of the revolution. Another fun fact about the battle is that the Senecas suffered heavy casualties and many of their chiefs were killed, this hardened their resolve to keep fighting for the British and seek revenge for their heavy losses.
Excellent graphics to go with a great historical tale. Thank you.
Avoid Civil War at all costs?
Yes, Amen.
War is sin and civil war is the cruelist of wars.
Thanks for your video.
well reseached and excellently presented.
Thanks.
DOUG out
Great stuff!! There’s a hunger for these kind of videos, and the views show it! Keep up the good work. Very knowledgeable.
I guess so! Thanks for the kinds words
I’m from western NY and hope u cover our region too. Love u history channel!!!
Absolutely! Thanks
@@LocalNYhistoryYes. I'm in PA next door. There's some potential for a good video if you dive into investigating what the Seneca did to the Eriez in the early 1630s. They were genocided so bad that the only historical accounts are from what the Iroquois and Seneca told and I found two conflicting accounts of why that war started from allegedly the same side. Because there was no other side left. If not for missionaries trying to make contact with the Eriez, history wouldn't even know them.
I had 3 ancestors at the battle, Pvt. Andreas Clapsaddle, Capt. Henry Harter, and Lt. Col. Frederick P. Bellinger. Andreas lost two brothers, Maj. Augustinus and kid brother Pvt. Jakob. Another brother Pvt. Wilhelm was also there. Brother, Johannes, was was not at the battle but was killed and scalped three years later outside of Herkimer, NY. The Lt. Col. was taken as a POW. He was a distant cousin of Col. Peter Bellinger, who helped reorganize the troops after the original assault.
My 5th and 6th great-grandfathers, Henry Frank Sr. and Henry Frank Jr. survived the battle. Henry Sr. married Gertrude Clapsaddle ( Geertruid Klebsattel). They settled Ashford NY not to far where I live. My grand mother was a Frank.
I camped out here long ago when I was in the scouts. What a heavy place it is at night!
That's awesome, sounds like an experience!
You hit the nail on the head with the description of the Next Civil war.
Indeed, I agree that it will surely start of as this. Though I think that will be the general start to it, once key figures appear and leaders step forward I believe geographical dividing lines will be formed then.
Nice video. What were your sources for the Indian involvement, especially on the American side? I had not heard of the specific names previously.
I grew up in the area (RFA - 1980), and have studied the local history. That history is fascinating. Perhaps you could consider doing some videos on other topics like the Black River Canal, the Erie Canal as it pertained to the Rome-Utica area, the central NY regiments in the civil war, etc…
I used a variety of sources and thanks for the ideas! I plan on it
@@LocalNYhistory I was interested in the specific source(s) about the Indians that fought with colonists. There is a lot of “new” history now, and I was interested in the dates the source material was written. When I was in the Rome Public School system (1968-1980) we were taught that there were Indians on each side of the conflict; however, you provided a level of detail on specific names that I hadn’t heard before. I’ll likely read the source material to expand my knowledge.
Your videos are very interesting, and I look forward to more of them.
Thank you! Cool to know a fellow RFA grad is watching. This is the lecture that got me interested in the first place and where I got a bunch of great insights. Highly recommend: ua-cam.com/video/1YduaW7dr1E/v-deo.html@@vtrack1963
I operated with the Oriskany Aircraft carrier in the Navy
A little local genealogy a number of the sons of Nicholas Pickert/Pichard and Anna Barbara Wieser fought in the Battle of Oriskany, Tryon (later Montgomery Co.) County militia under Col. Cox and Campbell, Bartholmew, John, Jacobus, and Conrad as well as a number of their older sons, a fourth brother Willian was Loyalist in Butler's Rangers. The Pickert brothers were nephews of the famed Indian Agent and frontiersman Conrad Weiser and cousins of Gen. Peter Muhlenberg.
Their daughter Dorothy (my gggg grandmother) married a loyalist and so did their daughter. Oddly, their granddaughter, Rachel Young, married her second cousin, Adam Young, who had fought on the American side. So now there are hundreds of people who can claim they had ancestors on both sides of the battle.
Thanks, Nick I'll check I have extensive Wieser genealogy record, I'm a Wieser descendant
Great use of maps at the macro, gaming images in battle depiction and AI graphics for the presentation of individuals,
I reckon you could have used the same technique to support the tactical level fighting, just a thought to possibly enhance your story telling, good Stuff
Thank you! FYI I used Blender for the maps, Midjourney and Myheritage for the AI images, Empire Total War for the battle, and Final Cut Pro X to pull it all together
My 6th great grandfather, Conrad Hause, died that day. He was from German Flats, NY same as Herkimer. I am glad he had some children prior to the war otherwise I wouldn't be here. Thanks for the video.
Two of my 3rd great grand uncle’s fought at Oriskany, George and Jacob Waggoner. George was wounded in a thigh both survived. They are m Mentioned on the Oriskany monument
Must have been terrifying, thanks for watching
Thank you. Excellent.
As a kid, I used to ride my bike through the Oriskany Battle Field. I remember when Fort Stanwicks was reconstructed, and our school took us kids there for a field trip. It wasn't until I was older that I learned the significance of that battle.
I took part in a reenactment when I was a kid in the late 70s . I was discouraged when I talked with my nephews in the 90s who who knew nothing of the battle. .
Subscribed tonight.
Thank you.
DOUG out
Thanks Doug!
Just subscribed - thanks for the history. Our Mother's side is from Herkimer (German). I live in MIami.
Outstanding video ❤
Grew up in Oriskany in the 70s . What a great place
Awesome. Some of the best history out there right in that little area.
Excellent. Thank you. Beautiful images. Any chance the entire battlefield (in the forest) can be replanted/restored? Those magnificent old growth trees of the time must have been impressive.
Thanks! And that would be interesting
Some gaps and shortcomings , but on the whole , nicely done !
Thank you! I'd love to know what specifically you are referring to
Joseph Brant was a full blood Mohawk. William Johnson was his "adoptive father" and married Brant's sister, Molly
From what I've heard there is some debate about your first point but I believe you are correct in hindsight
@@LocalNYhistorythere is no debate he was adopted Mohawk but born Huron to Huron parents who were captives.
Great video!! I love local history. I have some great ideas for other videos just let me know.
Thanks so much! I have a million ideas but whats a few million more? haha. What are you thinking?
We forget that the War for Independence was the first American civil war.
I live here and use to volunteer at ft stanwix I've lived the history...
Awesome, thanks for watching
Loving the figure art!
great video! though your british flag is incorrect. the version you use didn’t exist until 1801.
You're right! Thanks for watching
The Onieda traitors were eventually betrayed by the Yankees, and fled to Canada where they live on the Thames River in Ontario. But as descendants of Loyalists some of us remember who stood with us.
Col. Butler's descendant Jon C. is a friend of mine; lives in Canada.
This was followed by the formation of Butler's Rangers, if I'm not mistaken.
Correct! I will likely do a video on them at some point down the road
@@LocalNYhistory Looking foreward to that one. Thank You.
The British flag at 2:40 is incorrect. The cross of St. Patrick was not on the flag until after 1800.
Thank you for pointing that out, unfortunately, I cannot change it now, but will keep in mind for future videos
Where was the 3rd Albany Regiment during the Saratoga campaign? My ancestor (Teunis Wells) served in it.
How do you know Herkimer had a German accent?
I was told that by someone who works at the Oriskany monument, and it makes sense if you look at his Palatine background
@@LocalNYhistory I haven't seen any evidence of his accent one way or another. Children born in America tend not to inherit their parents' and grandparents' accents.
In the novel Drums Along the Mohawk, Dr. Petrie says to Herkimer "I forgot you don't speak English decent." His character in the subsequent movie then has a thick German accent. That's probably where the notion came from.
"Civil war"? My good man, it was a revolutionary war.
Haha yes sir. What’s interesting is that this revolutionary war had elements of a Civil War, and towards the end of it, a world war once France got involved.
Neighbour against neighbour is CIVIL war by definition and the battle of Oriskany epitomizes that aspect of the American revolution or do you forget that all 'Americans' were British subjects.
@@jamesdiaz793 The colonists were in open rebellion to the crown. They were fighting for independence. They were fighting to establish a new social contract. Had they lost, they would have been known to history as "rebels" and "insurrectionists" having lost what would have been a civil war. Fortunately for the Americans, the colonists won. The monarchy was defeated. History is written by the victor and as such, they were revolutionaries. It was in fact, a revolution, not a civil war.
Yes and no most of the leaders of the conflict were officials of the crown at on time it was English against English ❤
HEY.......I LIVE IN ORISKANY....I EAT LUNCH IN THIS PARK
What, pray tell, is hishtory?
I read this comment out loud to my wife and she was rolling haha
The Civil War wasn't a tidy division, or whatever you called it, there was plenty of neighbor vs neighbor, especially in West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee.
Sure, but I still think if there is another civil war it will be much more chaotic because there will be no physically defined political boundaries like before. Thanks for watching
Not like this. Every family was divided.
Brant wasn't half English.
You know it’s funny after I recorded the audio for this I really looked into that particular point. Many accounts agree with what you say, but it is not 100%. If I could redo the video, I would have added a “possibly” or something like that. Thanks for watching!
@@LocalNYhistory 👍
Conrad and Peter Folts from Heidelberg fell there. My direct descendants. We should never loose sight of why they fought and died there ages ago. America for all or nothing at all...
Absolutely! Thank you for sharing
Descendant of the Herkimer's. Still in central NY.
🇺🇲👍👌
Tactical Victory, Strategic lose.