I love the fact that the guy who made the mod to reduce the butt camera angles for the original ME3 was the same guy to make the mod that reimplemented them in LE. Perfectly balanced.
@@varrica large part of that was also probably from fan response. People hated him so much they probably didn’t even feel the need to include him much in the game, and they just made him worse with cheating in 3
@@chriswilliams4700 I dont think people hated him so much as they found him boring, much like Kaiden in the fiest game. People didnt hate him until 3, because of the cheating.
You know, as much as Miranda wasn't well-handled in ME3 I will say that she probably has the saddest break-up scene of anyone because she is the only one who cries. It seems odd at first that Miranda (the ice queen) is the only love interest who cries and seems more hurt about the break-up than most others. But then you have to remember that Miranda at this point doesn't have much in her life. She's quit Cerberus, the organization she devoted most of her life to. The only family she really has, her sister, is in danger and now Shepard, the one person she truly loves is leaving her. All the other love interests have found their places in the galaxy outside of Shepard. Miranda hasn't yet. And now with this, she realizes that she's alone. So of course she'd be devastated and heartbroken.
"Sadly this likeable Jacob is never seen again" - Even going through his story in 3 having not romanced him or cared at all, just knowing what he does if you DO just sours his whole entire arc no matter what kind of playthrough I'm doing. Yay. So happy for you and your new family. Still hate you.
I wish Miranda was a full fledged squad mate in ME3. Her voice acting, design, and all around kinda morally ambiguous design was one of my absolute favorites. At least she got some cute content in Citadel though it’s a shame we’ll probably never see her again
An actual Paragon Shepard line in the ME2 Miranda romance: "Who said anything aboot love; I'm just trying to get you into bed." Then if you break up with her in 3 she's so grief-stricken she dies.
@@pikmonwolfSomething something lots of hangups about being perfect, and being dumped is proof she wasn't perfect enough to stay with/perfect enough to love
I feel like a good TLDR on my thought on Miranda in ME3 is that for such a massive character ME2, it's impressive how much she was sidelined in ME3. Yes, I do know that was because Yvonne Strahovski (her voice actress) had scheduling conflicts but most likely that wouldn't have happened if ME3 wasn't as rushed as it was. Also, I do think that it would've been great for Grunt and Miranda to have character development together. After all, it would've been interesting to see their views on each other since they were both tankbred.
I never though about that. Yeah it would've been cool to get a real Grunt Miranda dynamic. And as I said, I've never seen any official confirmation that scheduling was the reason she is so sidelines. As far as I can tell, it's a rumor.
@@pikmonwolf Three things. One I feel like part of the reason why Miranda seems averse to letting Grunt out of his tank (before you let him out and after you get his tank), is the fact that she hates the fact that she was tankbred since she hates that everything she accomplished can be traced back to her insane, and abusive father and since she hates that part of herself she has a disdain for people that are tankbred in general, so she's not sure about Grunt at first. That or I'm just overlaying it. Nonetheless, I feel like when the Krogn are trashing Grunt for being tankbred (during his loyalty mission) there should've been something from Miranda that shows that she doesn't like how she's tankbred, (somewhat) agrees with them or that she still doesn't like people attacking other just for being tankbred, or both, or just anything. Second I feel like I wouldn't take as much issue with there being very little Miranda Lawson in ME3 If it wasn't for the fact that what we did get of her was pretty bad since it's all just a repeat of her loyalty mission from the first game except worse. So, not only was she sidelined in ME3 but what was there wasn't very good. Quality always matters more than quantity but when you have neither it's bad. And third, I feel like while people love making fun of the "I could sustain the field too, in theory, any biotic could" line from the suicide mission, and while it's one of the most mocked lines in the ME trilogy, people don't address the elephant in the room, which could be easy to forget What I'm trying to say is that in the first game, Asari Matarich Benezia put up a biotic field when you were fighting her minions but not her, and she had trouble maintaining the field, and failed doing so, and Asari Matirachs are the most powerful biotics in the universe. Yes, I know she was going through internal struggle with indoctrination but that doesn't change the fact that she failed even though she was one of the most powerful biotics in the galaxy at the time. What I'm trying to say is that while this is easy to forget the first game did make it clear that maintaining a biotic field for a long time is very hard, so most biotics can't maintain the field both in theory and in practice.
Your comment reminds me of a fanfic I read like... god, 10ish years ago? I'll see if I can still find it somewhere. If I do I'll link it. "Lab Rats in Space" or something like that was its name. A spoof piece about the 3 experiments gone wrong, aka Grunt, Jack and Miranda, teaming up for a while after the ME2 finale and getting into all sorts of trouble. I still remember it had this recurring joke with Jack constantly teasing both of them over her actually having been properly conceived and born while the other two weren't and Miri and Grunt would team up and return fire.
Even if her voice actress was completely avaible, She wouldnt've been as involved it seems. Javik of all people who is a DLC character gets more screentime than Miranda. Worst, she is not even at the ending scene with the rest of the crew when they are hanging the Shepard's name on the memorial wall. Miranda is just as part of the crew (more than Vega, Ash or Kaidan) and definetly should be there.
I will say she was completely mishandled in three you think cerber is being a huge treacherous organization would make her trips to the citadel slightly more of a hassle however her calling herself out on the control chip which is what the illusive man does with his troops.
Its funny you mentioned that Miranda should've been on the Normandy because that was actually her intended role. She was intended be asked to join the Normandy as a non-Squadmate character, and modders found content in the game files where she would've been able to be found in the Normandy's boardroom looking over a datapad.
One big problem the Mass Effect series suffers from IMO is that it almost feels like the writers of each game hated the previous installment and sought to undo/ignore everything it did. Mass Effect 1 makes a big deal about you being a Spectre and sets up the Cipher as this big important thing, then 2 mostly sidelines the Spectre/Alliance stuff and completely forgets about the Cipher. Then 2 establishes Cerberus as this somewhat morally grey entity and foreshadows a plot about dark energy, but 3 comes along and says Cerberus are fully evil and forgets about the dark energy stuff. Miranda getting sidelined in 3 is a part of this- it’d make sense with how she got a ton of focus and was hard to lose in the previous game that she would be a major character (and probably a squadmate) in the next, but instead it just seemed like the writers were uninterested in her, and her story feels like an afterthought. I don’t know if they just truly didn’t like the character all that much or if they didn’t have enough dev time to do something bigger (or both), but it’s a huge missed opportunity regardless.
2 is the odd one out I'd say. At least 1 and 3 feel like they're telling the same story about the reapers, the discordant galaxy and how horrible cereberus is. Most of 3's retcons have to do with retconning 2's retcons lol.
A lot of the characters who made their first appearance in me2 seem to have been thrown to the wayside with short missions or relegated to a couple of appearances in ME3. I think BioWare recognized that there wasn’t a whole lot of connection built to them as much as there was for characters who carried over from ME1
@asdffdsaasdf12345678 this is probably reason number 1. As I was playing ME3 for the first time I knew all squadmates from the previous game would have a very reduced role.... unless they are named Garrus and Tali of course xD
Nah, I believe it was always planned that they wouldn't be returning. Due to the structure of the suicide mission. Hell even Tali was going to be left out of 3 at first. Only Garrus was gonna return.
A huge part of it is also the 'promise' that bioware made with the ME trilogy and how all your choices would matter. Now look at all the extra stuff they added to ME2 *during* the development of ME3. They couldn't possibly account for everything, so things had to be trimmed. Miranda being the most likely to live and being given the least screentime in 3 is not one of those cuts I'd have expected.
There's also the fact that each companion in ME2 could die in it (yes I know you can't import your save if all companions die but any companion could die during ME2). So, every time a companion from ME2 did something in ME3 Bioware would have to make an alternative version for the story to work. That meant creating new characters and lines that needed to be recorded, and POSSIBLE story changes.
Miranda in ME2: My sister and my father Miranda in ME3: My father and my sister Booooooooring. Also I'm still mad that her sister just looks like "NPC female human #219" and not like a slightly younger Miranda.
The thing that annoys me about the Miranda/Jack argument is there’s no way to actually resolve it. With Tali and Legion, Shepard points out the flaws in both of their thinking and even gets them to come up with a compromise, but with Miranda and Jack, Shepard just goes “Hey, don’t do this right now.” Sure, it gets them to stop fighting, but it does nothing about the actual issue they were having in the first place
That's a really good point and something that I feel like I thought about subconsciously. Tali and Legion's argument feels better since Shepard can take a neutral stance and get both of them to compromise and see the other's perspective (Tali gets that Legion wants to absorb more information for the Geth but Legion comes to understand that some of the stuff he wanted to send would've been dangerous for the Quarians survival which was already up to question.) With Miranda and Jack, there is no logical way to remain neutral when one side is completely wrong. Cerberus tortured not just Jack, but other subjects in that facility. I get that Miranda has flaws and does shift to be apologetic for Cerberus' actions before ditching them in the Collector base, but there is no chance in hell anything she says in that moment would convince a sane person that Cerberus was even a little right in what they did. What they should've done is keep the Paragon/Renegade checks incredibly difficult, but have Shepard reprimand Miranda for Cerberus' experiments while also getting Jack to seek a better solution than violence and revenge even if it is justified to a degree. Miranda is in the wrong, but what Jack is seeking in return might not be worth it in the long run either. This is far from an ideal solution but it would be something more other than just Shepard getting the both of them to hand wave the issue and never revisit it.
The Miranda and Jack fight is better if Miranda goes on Jack's loyalty mission. While there, she jumps on a quote from one of the scientists that mentions that they were hiding things from the Illusive Man. Miranda's comments in the argument then come across as her clinging to anything that can disassociate Cerberus from the indefensible cruelty of what happened to the children. It's the same tactic she uses when adding talking about the experiments with Rachni and Thorian creepers. Bringing her on the final mission is then extra satisfying as she is being asked to directly participate in something awful. She can no longer defend Cerberus and her morality wins out over blind loyalty.The arcs of some characters in ME2 were beautifully written.
@pikmonwolf Yes, it definitely does cross a line. Still, Miranda admits she isn't free of normal human failings, which in this case is saying something stupid when she's angry.
Okay, Miranda is one of my favorite character in the series, in the top 3 with Liara and Garrus and in the top 4 if we include Shepard themselvef, so I am obviously biased. However, there only needs to be a few little tweakes with the scripting in ME2 for her to be at her best. Way back in the day, I made some mods with the .INI file to adjust the timing of her lines and her loyalty mission. In my versoin of events she remains cold and detatched and defensive all the way until the second patch of dossiers are unlocked and at least 3 other loyalty missions are completed, including Jack's. I also removed the dire consequences for the Jack-Miranda fight and made those Paragon/Renegate options are the defaults. After that Miranda warms up to you, even mentioning the altercation with Jack (now recontextualized as her loosing her cool and Jack getting to her, which unsettles her, makes her think) and thal leads into her loyalty mission after. Much more organic character arc with growth and change. The ME3's colossal waste of the character can be rectified now with the Miranda mod. Which restores her to the position I always thought was supposed to be hers -- Normandy's XO. In ME3 there is no XO at all. Liara does not count, even though she moves inot that office. James in a jarhead. It is never addressed in the game, but the duties of running the ship and the crew are seemingly just pushed onto EDI. And I'm sure she could do all that, but I never understood why could the devs not just bring Miranda back. (Personally, I am tempted to surmise that Mac Walters sidelined most of hard-to-write characters because of time constaints and lack of confidence. Wchich tracks since, you know, the one new character he brought from the books was... Kai Leng.) And another big favorable thing in my eves that elevates Miranda is that she is one of the few Love Interests that are truly influenced by the player. Thane and Garrus retain their core philosophy and woldviews, regardless of player inflence, they do not fundamentally change. Thane philosophy about being a 'tool' and rejecting personal responsibility reamains firm, his guilt and regret remain personal about his family and only that. Garrus' vigilantism and crusade for righteous punishment and contempt for due process devolves into being dangerously close to faschism in ME3. Even if you as Shepard persuade him not to go through one instance of revenge-murder, he never repudiates his past actions as anything but entirely justified. Garrus is amazing badass, but he is not a good person. (The least said about Jacob, the better.) On the reverse there are Liara, Miranda, Tali, Jack and Ash, whose entire ideologies and worldviews are changed over their character arcs, in huge part because of Shepar's influence and you as a player can decide how to use that influence. Garrus, Thane and Jacob remain the same sort of person, even if you persuade them to change, they're static at their core. The others you can influence, for better or worse, but you can. And that agency will always be worth a lot for me. Sorry for a wall of text of a comment.
I agree with everything except "James in (is?) a jarhead." That's the comment of someone who didn't engage with any of Vega's in between game content. EGM lets you set an XO, and until you get the Virmire survivor, Vega is the obvious choice. He was Shepard's security guard for a reason. Miranda is Cerberus; she's never on the Alliance Normandy as an officer until AFTER the war.
@christineherrmann205 yeah, that typo oof. You're right, I have not read or seen any of the external content, just the games. I know James has his own story and it's good, but I have not seen it myself. But just based on ME3 alone and the way his role was scripted and acted -- he's a jarhead. He is a capable soldier and all that, but also a blunt instrument. Maybe if he had more screen time so to speak, I'd be convinced. Also, nothing about Normandy is normal. Especially in ME3. Alliance took a Cerberus high tech frigate, pulled a bunch of stuff out, took a hammer to it, slapped the Alliance logo on the side and suddenly it's 100% an Earth ship? Pfft. Liara moves in with a whole giant Broker apparatus, is that up and up on the regs? Shepard was on trial barely an hour before he took command of Normandy again. Reinstating Miranda would be nothing out of the ordinary for all the crazy stuff that happens even at the very beginning of that game. :D
Garrus I like to think does change. Yes, He does become Archangel after ME1 regardless of your choices but thats because you quite literally die before having enough time to rub off on him. None of the ME1 characters are altered by Shepard's actions with the exception of Saren. Contrary, ME2 versions are quite opposite of what we expect of our old companions. Tali is mostly the same but crushed under a job she is clearly not fit for. Liara grows completely cold after loss of Shepard, the crew, her mother and the blatant ignorance of the council upon their silently phasing out anything related to Reapers. Kaidan/Ashley turns into jarheads. Ash, I can expect (not because I hate her character) since she is fanatical about being a soldier. But Kaidan? The man who has L2 implants? The man who is exactly aware how the government operates? That is not the kind of man to be paranoid about Shepard even after ME2. Wrex grows soft. Remember, He hated Krogan life and despised what their culture had become. He wanted nothing to do with Tuchanka. After ME1 however he turns back to Tuchanka to save his kind. He is the only one who has 180% changed but even that is not caused directly by Shepard. He just saw how Saren and others are keep going to use his kin and decided to do something about it. Garrus wants to change if you go Paragon but you dont stick around long enough to show him how. Until he hears about your death, he tries to do better. After your death and Council's abysmall idiocracy however he goes back to what he is comfortable with. Shooting bad guys on sight. Who can be worse than Blood Pack and Eclipse anyways? ME2 is where Shepard actually starts to alter each character's ideologies as his own is also forced to change. ME1 Shepard would NOT, Under any circumstances, work for Cerberus. This one does and upon doing so realises majority of the Cerberus personnel are either desperate for money or outright victims of propaganda. Garrus after ME2 (assuming you are going paragon) does not fall back to his old habits. For one, he goes back to Palaven and screams on top of his lungs until somebody does listen. He goes all the way from uncaring vigilante to politician without benefits. I wont write the rest as this thing is already a massive wall of text but you get my point.
That sounds really interesting and a much more compelling (and logical) arc for Miranda. Is it very complicated to edit the .ini files in this way in order to achieve that? Is there a guide for this somewhere, or do you know if there is an actual mod that makes these changes that you made to your own game? :)
Mordin isn't the hardest to keep alive in the collector base, since he's very likely to either be in your squad or doing the escort, while the dangerous position is holding the line. Tali however, is fairly useless against Collectors, so she won't be in your squad and has the second lowest hold score, making her the likelest to die. Then she's the one who comes back as a full squadmate despite other former squaddies having weaker excuses than "I'm an admiral" for not joining you.
Mordin is a logical choice for escort since he's a doctor, in my first playthrough I sent him back with them, but I wouldn't say you can count on that.
@@pikmonwolf You can't count on sending him back, but Incinerate is useful against armor, and you're up against a lot of armor. Him or Miranda will probably be your "mage" in the final battle.
It's a popularity contest. Tali and garrus are some of the most popular teammates with the most rabid fans. Not including either of them wouldn't have gone over well with fans
Honestly the whole not recruiting Miranda thing in me3 could have been as simple as 1. I need to find Oriana 2. You’re on a warship in the war to end all wars, I can’t risk dying for her sake
Man I really wished that Miranda would've ended up joining the Alliance after the events of ME2 upon seeing first hand how much harm Cerberus was capable of doing.
@pikmonwolf Not if you leave him with at least one of the highest rated companions such as Garrus and Zaeed My team comp always varies depending on what character build I'm running, but I always set Garrus as the second team leader and always leave Mordin and Grunt or Zaeed with him while sending Jacob back with the crew. Works every time as long as everyone's loyal
I’ve always had a bit of a chuckle when people say Mordin is hard to keep alive in the Collector base. It’s very simple; stop taking Garrus everywhere with you and just leave him to hold the line along with the other two powerhouses (Zaeed and Grunt), and everyone will survive every time assuming each companion is loyal. Like, 99% of the time if someone says Mordin died holding the line, it’s because they took Garrus to the final fight and there wasn’t enough strength staying back. (Sure, you could say it’s because they actually took Zaeed or Grunt with them, but come on, we know exactly which of the three tough guys most people keep in their party.) The real comedy, though, happens when they send Mordin back with the crew, take Garrus with them to the final fight, and then Tali is the one who dies holding the line instead since she’s next on the death list if the line isn’t strong and Mordin isn’t there.
Almost every godawful decision in this franchise can be traced back to Mac Walters - not limited to the absolute destruction of Chris Etole’s Geth, the wholesale retcon of Cerberus, the character assassination of TIM, the infantilizing treatment of the Quarians in ME3, hell the entire narrative of ME3 for that matter, and literally all of Andromeda. I want to fight that man. 😂 Thank you for the holiday video. Merry Christmas.
Miranda and jacob should have been choices like Kaidan or Ashley. And Bioware should have made the not chosen, the alternate version of Kai Leng in Mass Effect 3, that would have made perfect sense.
@@jorgeenriquez637 90% would go for Miranda not only is she a better character her abilities are beyond overpowered unlike Jacob who's just one step above Jack who's possibly one of the worst.
@@pikmonwolf I maintain that it's insane that you HAVE TO lose one character in ME1, *might* lose a 2nd... but in ME2, the "suicide" mission, it's child's play to lose 0 (as long as you remember to rush to the Miranda/Jack confrontation or the bug will fuck you). I think you should have to lose *at least* two characters: 2 of Jacob, Thane, and Zaeed. I'd say the default ought to be Jacob and Thane - Jacob would be a hell of a lot better (less bad) if he died at the end of 2, and Thane's cameo in ME3 was a bit of a slap in the face. (I also think he's just a really fucking boring character trope.) With the ability to sub in Zaeed for either if you really want to because Zaeed is an aging mercenary, him dying during the mission makes sense to me.
The infamous ass shot could’ve worked, if it was done after Miranda said something funny or right before the engine room scene. The fact that her butt covers nearly half the screen when Miranda talks about the danger Oriana is what makes it laughable.
Leaning into Miranda's trauma as a genetically tailored biotic with an equally engineered sister was something I wanted to focus on in my fanfic, because I was writing a Shepard that shared that trait. It's what should eventually bond her and Jack, once they both deal with what Cerberus did... and I wanted to write that. You're right that she's written unevenly, and they leave a lot on the table.
If you think about it, a Miranda/Jack conflict could've done so much better if they'd shifted the focus and gotten deep with it. Because if you think about it, both of them were 'created perfect' in a way. Miranda got perfect jeans, Jack got exceptional biotic powers. Miranda 'embraced' her gift (hid in the shadows, pretended to be fine with it, cultivated her own power so she could theoretically break free, but doesn't because Cerberus gives her security) and Jack 'spurned' her gift (was tortured, refused to give in, became rebellious and violent, etc); both of them would have reason to envy the other ("Miranda has never had to work for her power, has always been respected, has always been perfect"/ "Jack has freedom and exceptional power but wastes it, Jack is ungrateful, Jack hates us even though we're trying to help" etc.) without actually understanding one-another. I feel like if they sat down to really talk and hang out they would learn that they're very similar, and could probably grow from one-another. Plus it'd be really funny to see them bonding and Jack encouraging Miranda to get an undercut and a tattoo.
When I first played ME3 and the Cerberus assassin who becomes EDI's body first showed up, I thought it was Miranda. Imagine if we'd gotten a loyal to Cerberus Miranda instead of Kai Leng in ME3.
@@pikmonwolf It would mirror the paragon/renegade choice made at the end of ME1 which has Saren die either way. It's a good bit of flavor even if the outcome is the same.
I always hated how every single character introduced in Mass Effect 2 refuses to join you in 3 but none of them annoyed me as much as Miranda. I really wanted her to join me, and it would have made the romance far more compelling.
@@Tgsva352 Bioware literally bite more than they can chew, to many characters to many romances, to many options, sacrifices been inevitable. I think they look at most popular options and make decision. On other side, no one asked about Vega, but they made him anyway.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it was super weird that she goes from extremely rude, to friendly, and then back to rude during Jack's loyalty mission. She also doesn't feel like a Cerberus operative at times even though we know she is...her RA RA CERBERUS attitude comes out of nowhere sometimes.
Funny enough about Miranda's Biotic powers what makes the most sense to me is that Miranda is better described as a skilled biotic where as Jack is better described as a powerful Biotic with Samara being both. Miranda is a tactician is would be more precise with her biotics making a one on one fight with her risky since she'll find and set up opportunities to strike where as Jack is more of a sledgehammer. I think this distinction is rather important when talking about who is more powerful if folks want to go with a tier list. Miranda is described as being on the level of an Asari commando who should easily be able to make that walk BUT Miranda relies on anonymity for defense so her Biotic bubbles are less developed. Miranda is very much used to being offensive with her biotics. So her failing to do the walk makes perfect sense as she doesn't use brute strength to solve problems all that much. I just wish gameplay wise we got to have some of these abilities. It's kind of funny how games like Helldivers and Space Marines are really close to what I was wanting Mass Effect gameplay to be like but BioWare doesn't seem to know how to make good use of defensive abilities in their gameplay. They did all right in Anthem. Maybe they learned a few things. Just annoying that the writing around biotic barriers is wildly inconsistent from every game. Would love to see what they could do with like a minigame sport where biotics could face each other similar to the duels they did in Harry Potter.
@pikmonwolf I agree. Just wish I could use a well-timed barrier to block attacks. Not enough enemies to use the same attacks against us that we use on them sort of thing.
I feel like Miranda definitely should have been a squadmate in ME3, especially considering she can't die in ME2 unless you really go out of your way to do it. The lack of ME2 squadmates in ME3 is crazy because somehow all of them have shit to do and yet the ones that don't after you help them still can't join you (i.e. Miranda, Samara, Kasumi, Zaeed etc)
There's alot, alot, alot I want to say on this but I don't want to overload a whole comment for people to dig through, so its stinks, but I was in a chat room for a Mass Effect trilogy run to analysis and review the series in and out and people in the chat literally went, "Miranda if you're so concerned about being found by your father why not join the Normandy?" which you point out but you can give so much more to her for the third game like having her and Ashley just talking and understanding each other's perspective and learn they're alot alike. To Ashley. One is extremely loyal to the Alliance, the other Cerberus. One is fiery but can be made to show a softer side, the other starts out as an Ice Queen who defrosts. One is very close with her sisters, the other prefers to observe her from afar, which she and Ashley would probably look out for each other like being with Ashley while her sister grieves and Ashley helps Miranda with her sister and keeping her worries in check. There's so much you can do with her characterwise.
that would've been a fun dynamic. Fun fact when I first played the series, from what little I had seen I didn't realize Miranda and Ashley were different people.
Even identical clones are still able to look different due to the environment they grew up. Miranda mostly grew up secluded with dad or on the run till Cerberus reached out. Her sister grew up in a loving family without the pressure from crazy dad. Plus age difference
That's true, but it doesn't really look like changes caused by nature, rather different facial structures. If anything the ways they do look similar would be how they look different. And there's Mass Effect 3 with a huge difference
7:45 them looking different makes sense here, they look super similar but Ori looks softer - pudgier. She's lived a simple normal life, of course she's not gonna be super fit like her sister.
Personally I felt the morally gray area of Miranda's mission was more about what lengths you would go for financial stability. As in is integrity more important than money and making a grand legacy for yourself. I also think her back and forth friendliness could be an act in order to get what she wants out of people until a situation gets out of hand for her and she shows her true self. And I imagine her history with Shepard (the chip and occasionally being a bitch to her) made it difficult for her to truly ask Shepard (and in turn her allies) for help. Plus, the Shadow Broker was far too busy with the war to look into everything else going on. I also like to think Miranda's father survived the fall only to then be torn apart by the husks he created.
@pikmonwolf true, but aside from only being able to learn a bare minimum (which is ironic considering you can learn the fate of Jeff's family by listening to an asari patient in the hospital during the game's first act), Miranda isn't part of the crew and theirs other crew members families (Garrus and James for example that she couldn't find). Just like there were other in game secrets (the krogan females, the turian bomb on Tuchanka, or the Prothean beacon on her own home world. Which proves that the Shadow Broker's information network is far from perfect.
The first time I played Mass Effect 2 I waited to finish every loyalty mission before going to the Collector Base. The last loyalty mission I had to do was Jack's, and I remember feeling so hyped to finally have everyone's loyalty for the suicide mission. I was not expecting the Miranda meltdown after Jack's mission, and I definitely wasn't expecting to lose Miranda's loyalty when I sided with Jack during that confrontation. That happening literally right before going to the Collector Base is why I didn't feel bad when Miranda was the only squadmate that didn't survive. She did it to herself
I know some people complain about Miranda looks but it honestly does make sense in universe. If you were a filthy rich narcissist who made a daughter from scratch to be a "perfect physical specimen" why not make her look like a sex goddess?
I killed off Miranda my first play through by having her die in the collecter base and then felt bad when she resigned from the illusive man since I knew her fate
Miranda got Tali killed in the vents in my first ever playthrough... I lost her loyalty in the confrontation with Jack. I haven't ever fully forgiven her for that.
All the ME 2 characters got the shaft in ME3, but I wish she had been a party member since the beginning. I got a mod to get her in ME3 because it's bullshit she wasn't a party member.
This isn’t a Miranda problem, it’s a ME2 Cerberus problem. Your uneasy alliance with Cerberus, the moral ambiguity of the situation, and the distrust it should manifest is all resolved too quickly and easily.
Miranda got the biggest shafting form the decision to not let any ME2 squadmates that aren't Tali and Garrus on board the Normandy. The rerun of her loyalty mission but slower pissed me off especially because I had a romanced run of hers on deck after my first playthrough. So much potential just willfully unrealized.
its crazy how much praise these games get, especially ME2, despite 2 and 3 reading so much like an unedited first draft. can you imagine if they were actually given time to cook on these games? the complete lack of plan for the two Cerberus companions they introduced is so silly. I should clarify that I love these games lol. but its funny to think how great these games are and somehow we got the worst version of it.
ME2 is the most eggregious one to me. I see it constantly being called the best Bioware game ever when the game's plot is, to be generous to it, "frail".
Nice breakdown of her character and story; my opinion generally is that they over corrected after Morrigan. So they don't let her warm up naturally, even though it makes sense for her personal warmth for Shepard to grow inversely to her opinion of Cerberus ( assuming they are anti-Cerberus, which even a Renegade Shep should be).
Correction: Having to commit at least one murder to join the Eclipse only applied to the Sisterhood on Illium. It's not a universal policy. Keep in mind that Eclipse mainly involves itself with smuggling Element Zero, which you don't need every member to be a trained killer for. It also explains why they use so many mechs, makes mining and transporting safer and cheaper.
I never found Miranda mean. In the beginning she's down-to-earth no-nonsense all-business. She's covering for curiosity about Shepard, maybe jealousy and remembering that (canonically) Shepard hates Cerberus and she doesn't feel like apologizing for think she hasn't done. Cold -maybe, but not mean.
@pikmonwolf No, she talks about her insecurities of having an ardent Cerberus enemy as the main man for the mission. About a fail-safe switch. She doesn't have the benefit of boot camp and propaganda training for me - you're surprised she wants some control? Everyone wants and tries (and damn well should) to control their army as tight as possible. What do you think military training in regular army does - it's prime aim is to make sure soldiers follow orders no hesitation (through indoctrination and muscle training). Cerberus doesn't have that with Shepard. So a control switch is a simple, crude, but possibly effective tool for that aim. It's harsh, hut it's practical, still not mean. Plus - remember she regrets and has a lot remorse because of that idea. Joker's answers to "what do you think about the people we've been picking up" are meaner than that.
I have to admit, my experience as a player with her was always a mild annoyance that can be summed up with "why are you here?" Like in the story, on my ship, on my crew. I just contextualised her as nothing more than one of the many annoyances foisted on the player by Cerberus in return for bringing the player back to life and building the 'N2ormandy' (woolieversus reference) I didn't even notice how OP she was as a squad member, It's interesting that i was oblivious to the positive aspects, they didn't register with me at all at the time.
I always thing i'll disagree with your points but always end up appreciating your points! I'd be interested with why you have issues with the ME2 gangs, I always found them quite interesting.
Commenting because I love your vids and love her so much. Miranda is my favorite in all fiction. First, her character could benefit a lot from having interactions with Grunt, who has the same creation as her. What would she think if she sees how different they are? Would she be super protective of him or resent him because he doesn't feel pressured to carry the burden of trying to live up to expectaions as her? Second, Clone Shepard who despite having the same level of capabilities is not as great as real Shephard. It proves that Shepard's and her strengths do not only come from their innate abilities, but also what they choose to do with them.
Mass Effect 3's story is a train wreck and I wholeheartedly agree with every single criticism you shared about the third game. Mass Effect 3 really mishandled Miranda and Jacob's characters. I disagree with most of your criticisms about Miranda in Mass Effect 2 however. This is because she is brainwashed by Cerberus (for example, during the Jack/Miranda fight), so the behavior is actually very consistent with her character. The one part of Mass Effect 2 I do share issue with is Miranda's response to the Illusive Man if she's not loyal to you being the same as the loyal response.
I genuinely don't believe you when you say Miranda is OP in ME2. As someone who never really liked her enough to keep bringing her everywhere like some of the GOATs, I don't remember ever feeling like she made the times I did bring her with me easier. So I don't have enough experience to be sure, and that's a good reason to replay ME2 insanity yet again.
If you ever run out of video ideas for Mass Effect I would love to see you do videos on other story/choice games like Telltale games or Life Is Strange.
It is kinda sad that in Mass Effect 2, you only fight the Collectors in 4 missions and for the majority of the game, have to deal with 3 mercenary gangs with basically no connection to the same plot.
I've read that part of Miranda's plot in ME2 was redone totally. I believe the barebones of her original layout is still preserved in ME2s file architecture. It calls for storybeats - there was no sister plot. She was far more femme fatal. She was digging up dirt on TIM for her loyalty mission and you could push her towards Jacob (both in a femme fatal way and a more legitimate way). Then she went through a rewrite. This might account for her inconsistent characterization.
Usually I agree with almost all of your points in these Mass Effect videos, but this time I respectfully disagree. To me, Miranda never came off as having a sharp moment of warming-up to you. She is extremely cold at the start and gives it up very quickly, sure - but not turning into your friend immidiatly. Rather, she just becomes less cold and more chaty, seeing that Shepherd was probably actually really worth the investment (as opposed to her explicit thoughts when asked about it at the start). So she becomes less hostile, but also stays professional. It is only after her loyalty mission that she becomes your friend. I'd say her pacing in ME2 was pretty much perfect on that front. Miranda in ME3 on the other hand is an entirely different matter. I agree with you completely about how they wasted her in that game, which is, for me, the reason she's not as strong a character - most of the squadmates were introduced with great premises in ME2, but got to actually provide emotional payoff in ME3. Garrus, Liara, Tali, Mordin, legion, Thane, even Joker, all got their characters truly developed and dynamic in ME3. So those who performed badly in that game would be remembered less fondly. Also, Miranda being a narcissistic snob and her also being nice to you later, while still being horrible to Jack, is actually non-contradictory and makes a lot of sense - she unfortunately has those negative characteristics (in addition to her good ones), which are muted in front of people she has warmed up to, you being one of them after helping her with her sister. She being your friend doesn't mean she can't be completely irational and unfair towards someone she hates.
This video got me to thinking... ... dangerous, I know, but work with me... ... what happened to (best bro) Wrex between ME2 and ME3? Too much ryncol? Why did he turn from an understated, thoughtful, quietly sarcastic force of concentrated violence into a boisterous blowhard of violence trying to out-quip Garrus? . They had the good sense to allow him as a squadmate in the Citadel DLC, at least. It was good to see him in action one last time.
My brothers in christ, we are fighting the reapers, not building yet another team for a suicide mission, what the hell can miranda do in the war when she got merked by the collector if you choose her to hold the shield??
i was always kinda annoyed my mirandas role in three mostly cause it takes finishing the mission right before the point of no return to get her to be in the citadel dlc, and seeing as how you get the dlc like right at the start of the game im willing to bet most players didnt get to see her at the party its the same pacing problem with arrival where you just get the prompt to start the dlc at the wrong time
How ME2 character were treated in ME3 is always a blow for me. Especially how reduced to cameos even the important ones were. And as much as I like Grunts "final" stand I wanted my baby krogan boy back on the ship. Screw Vega he doesn’t deserve to be the replacement pseudo-krogan
If you ask me, Miranda should've been Kai Leng. The best Cerberus operative trying to undermine Shepard? That's Miranda. You can either call upon friendship to turn her away from Cerberus or if you do nothing, she becomes fully indoctrinatedcand you fight her. In the meantime, she could allow Cerberus coup on Citadel, take artifact from Thessia, set the bomb on Thuchanka, etc.
I’d rather have Jacob in that role. Maybe make it so he always “dies” in the collector base but Cerberus finds him when they are taking the human reaper back to Atlas station. He could be a rival to Shepard that’s bitter because Shepard left him at the base.
In my first ever play-through of the Trilogy, I went for Miranda. However, during that very same play-through, I ended up dumping her... for Jack. During each play-through after that, I never went for her (Miranda) again.
This is why I've always preferred Jack over Miranda, even though you can't recruit her ME3 either her character arc feels much more satisfying. Seeing her become a mentor after everything she's been through legitimately makes me feel proud of her.
What i think i love about her is that while yes she's clearly sexualized there's a reason behind it and it's something thatmakes sense. Her looks are also in a way reflective of her overconfident nature but it's a nature that she kinda gets to have because she's near perfect at everything. Yet she's more. When she opens up to you you learn she's not just this body you've been checking out and shes not just this cocky bitch. She has a heart. She has family. She even has flaws that she shares with you. Yes, she has some major flaws in her writing and some others in the gameplay about her. But she's far from the worst and i think she's in fact underrated despite all these flaws youve mentioned being 100% true.
@@pikmonwolf yes, precisely! And as you put it she's a femme fatale character and I almost get the sense that she's in a way meant to try to keep Shepherd wrapped around her finger as a result (from the elusive man.) With her being the sexual interest and Jacob being a laid back reliable best friend type character. (At least that's what he is supposed to be but Garrus fills that role and he's got some major flaws) Side note: With rumors of ME5 it's sad to think that every character we know and love will almost be guaranteed to not be there. It also means that whatever new things that they have us play as and with will have to compete with an incredibly tall order and standard. Also, I absolutely LOVE your ME videos. I've been binge watching/listening to them all at work and even on my alone time.
Yeah, for me the Miranda Mod is an essential mod since it makes Miranda a squadmate again after horizon and gives her a romance scene back. Granted, it was made from spliced voice samples from unused VAs and Mass effect 2 but it worked. And later on, it did AI voice lines, which I can tolerate in a fan mod. But that's not exactly canonical.
@@pikmonwolf You're not wrong. It's the same deal with the Happy Ending mod. It's something that makes the product as a whole better, but cannot be brought up seriously in a discussion. It's effectively headcanon made actualized.
She had so much potential as a character. But I think they failed all the ME2 characters. And then relegating them basically to war assets in ME3 after like 1 remember me mission ... They really needed to do them better. Especially her.
Haven't watched the video yet, BUT my knee-jerk reaction is: I fucking love Miranda. One of my favorite companions of all-time across all video games, I absolutely love how she slowly starts to open up to you as you impress her, as you start to accomplish more and more of your mission and show her what you're about. (She's kinda like the anti-Jacob in that respect, right? He's open at first, but NEVER reveals anything else; she's pretty stand-offish at first, but slowly warms to you.) I prefer her romance above all others through the ME trilogy... except she just isn't in ME3, which is INSANE. She quits Cerberus, why doesn't she play a larger role in ME3??? I keep planning on making a video about how LE ME was a massive failure, and a top-3 issue is how partitioned off all the romances are; I get why ME2 holds back so many of your ME1 squadmates, but ME3 shouldn't be so stingy. It's such bullshit that you don't get to enjoy returning squadmates for ME2 in ME3 if they survived; they all play the smallest and most disappointing of roles. I assume that's what this video is about, how ME3 didn't do anything interesting with her (or... anybody from ME2?) I like Andromeda significantly more than ME3, let's be real. ME3 not only fucks you over with regards to squadmates, but the main villain from the trilogy suddenly shifts from the Reapers to Cerberus, it's an insane - and badly handled - out-of-left-field shift. Especially given how you fuck over Cerberus in ME2, especially if you didn't give them the Collector base.
@@pikmonwolf *TERRIBLE* plan. That's worse than "How I Met Your Mother's" plan to kill off Cristin Milioti so that Ted could get with Robin at the end. Bad plan.
Given once you complete Jack and Miranda's loyality missions, the pair have a confrontation it would be better to give the player the loyaltiy mission near the end, as i always do Jack's mission before Miranda's (i just like Jack better), so i have this missions that meant to be time sensative mission just sitting around. Plus given Shepard gives Jack access to Cerberus data that could have been a way to have an argument with Miranda plus gives us more Jack and Miranda cat fighting which is always fine.
Ah my favorite Cerberus Cheerleader. I fall on the side that really love her strengths but I can’t really disagree with any of the criticisms you brought up. On her blowup fight with Jack. I think what the writers were trying to portray was Jack coming into the convo like a wrecking ball saying Cerberus is an evil corp full if evil people and Miranda’s position was supposed to be poking holes in Jack’s “biased” argument by pointing out what happened to her was a mistake by a cell gone rogue and not a representation of what Ceberus stands for. I think they tried to further drive that home with that one holo on Pragia where the scientists were worried what TIM would do if he found out about their experiments. I’m pretty sure that’s what they were attempting to say even though they did a terrible job at trying to portray Cerberus in any light other than pure unrepentant bastards.
I think the fight would've worked better if Miranda was like "I'm sorry for what happened to you, truly, but it was not Cerberus who did it." Then both of them would have a fair point of view.
Like, I have always wanted to romance Miranda in ME2.....but move onto my man Kaidan in ME3......and yet, I don't want Miranda to die so, I don't. I wish her story survival if romanced was not dependant on that! I absolutely adore Miranda, her character and her story. Her friendship and how it grows over the course of ME2 with Shepard is so so good. I wish they had not dropped the ball with her in ME3 but...look at what they did to Thane....and Jack (I love how Jack is an instructor but she needed more screen time)....But, at least she lives if you break up with her in ME3.
I agree that Miranda dying if you break up with her isn't great it's an interesting idea but it just isn't done well. It would have worked better if it was sort of a cumulative points system like they use with the Virmire Survivor. You need to do a certain amount of things to keep her alive and it becomes harder if you break up with her but not impossible
Miranda isn't wrong about Jack, the teltin facility went rogue, not officially cerberus. And the abuse done to Jack was a mistake. Cerberus has done unethical experiments and committed lots of violence but teltin is the only instance of abusing human children and they make it clear the staff were keeping it hidden from the illusive man. They should have reversed her options in the suicide mission, she has the personal strength to hold the bubble but she can't command the loyalty of the team. She's used to being in charge of soldiers or other cerberus agents that are part of a command structure, she's not a natural leader that can inspire a team of volunteers.
@ to be fair I suspect that was more of an effort to guard against pre-release spoilers via data mining? All the characters are referenced by vague descriptors rather than names, so I have to assume there was a purpose to keeping things non-specific. Either that or they began building a lot of the quests and levels related to the characters before they settled on a name. Because the stuff that was probably finalized later in the development process-like the characters appearance files-use her name. But a location related to her personal quests or something to that effect (it’s been a while since I’ve worked on mods for the game, so I’m unable to cite specific examples of this happening but it very much jumped out at me) would have assets named as belonging to “vixen” in various ways. Which is telling about what the creators considered her earliest defining characteristics.
I distrusted Jacob immediately lol. At least Miranda was an actual Ice Queen who slowly thawed out. If you utilize the mods for her, when she does join the Normandy it feels like an achievement because she is not trusted by the Alliance at all. They still see her as a liability. She is my favorite Male romance, but being female may have something to do with it. :) And though I agree her story could have been written so much better, when you take her arc as a whole, and combine it with Cerberus being a turncoat... you can really find something great. Her story is about trust.
Just from a feminist perspective, the conversation you can have with Miranda about being Space Divas in 3 has some nice pay offs for a female/female friendship. Wish we could have seen more of that Miranda in 2.
@@pikmonwolf Agreed. I just think it's a direction they could have leaned into more. Basically, I think Miranda's story has two prongs they could have aimed for doing both at the same time depending on who you were. There's the BroShep Romance options heating up the ice queen and there's the FemShep friendship between Space Divas, as this also would have required warming up, but you essentially have two career women who worked their ways up the ranks by being exceptional and find not many other people can relate to them. The BroShep friendship route would be a bit bland (as he doesn't get Space Diva dialogue or romance dialogue), but I think her character could have shone if they'd added both those polishes to her and worked on it from the beginning. Just that both are missed opportunities.
I love Miranda. I wish she was a squad mate in 3. Her being a former member of Cerberus would make her standout among the other squad mates. I can see her having conflict with Ashley/Kaiden while Tali, Garrus, and Liara would be warmer to her. She’s also an underrated romance, so I would’ve liked that to have been expanded more than it was in 3. And thinking about it, the Citadel DLC would’ve been even better if she was part of the Clone Arc. Lastly, I disagree on Miranda being in the wrong in her argument with Jack. Yes, what happened to Jack was horrible, but Miranda had nothing to do with it. Jack went to her looking for a fight. If I don’t have enough renegade or paragon points, I always side with Miranda. I’ve never liked Jack. She’s much more unpleasant and unapproachable than Miranda at her worst. I would usually kill her off with Jacob in the Suicide Mission by not upgrading the armor. Thanks for the video! Glad I got to see it.
I love the fact that the guy who made the mod to reduce the butt camera angles for the original ME3 was the same guy to make the mod that reimplemented them in LE.
Perfectly balanced.
"I'm playing both sides so I always come out on top."
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
It's the perfect thing - you give people the choice. Some want the angles, other's don't.
Also there must have been one hell of a character arc
Had to be him. Someone else might've gotten it wrong.
@ItsaDonut no arc necessary of your super pro choice about looking and fictional women's butts.
Miranda's role in Mass Effect 3 is 90% about getting to that party in Citadel DLC.
Agreed. However none of her stuff really continues her story, it's just some fun scenes.
She's not a character that game, she's a cameo
Jacob is even worse in that regard. Remove him completely from Mass Effect 3 and the game is not going to change at all.
@@varrica large part of that was also probably from fan response. People hated him so much they probably didn’t even feel the need to include him much in the game, and they just made him worse with cheating in 3
@@chriswilliams4700
I dont think people hated him so much as they found him boring, much like Kaiden in the fiest game. People didnt hate him until 3, because of the cheating.
You know, as much as Miranda wasn't well-handled in ME3 I will say that she probably has the saddest break-up scene of anyone because she is the only one who cries.
It seems odd at first that Miranda (the ice queen) is the only love interest who cries and seems more hurt about the break-up than most others. But then you have to remember that Miranda at this point doesn't have much in her life. She's quit Cerberus, the organization she devoted most of her life to. The only family she really has, her sister, is in danger and now Shepard, the one person she truly loves is leaving her.
All the other love interests have found their places in the galaxy outside of Shepard. Miranda hasn't yet. And now with this, she realizes that she's alone. So of course she'd be devastated and heartbroken.
And if you break up with Miranda, she will die
@@JJ-eg6xd Even if you do literally everything right outside of that.
@@JJ-eg6xd As Michelle Obama once said: Miranda screams emotionally dependant. But given her character it makes sense, not enough to die though.
@@AHappyBlackGuy ah yes the presidents windsom speeks through thee
Very true. It's honestly her best scene in 3 (outside of the Citadel DLC) because her actions make complete and total sense.
"Sadly this likeable Jacob is never seen again" - Even going through his story in 3 having not romanced him or cared at all, just knowing what he does if you DO just sours his whole entire arc no matter what kind of playthrough I'm doing. Yay. So happy for you and your new family. Still hate you.
Jacob's a walking racist stereotype.
Exactly. Hard to overlook how shitty he can be.
@@pikmonwolf Imagine being so hated that people judge you based on yourself from an alternate timeline.
That's how bad they messed Jacob up.
Can't hate him in ME3 if you sent him in the vents in ME2 😂
@@barnabasmike4318 to be fair, it WAS his suggestion...
I wish Miranda was a full fledged squad mate in ME3. Her voice acting, design, and all around kinda morally ambiguous design was one of my absolute favorites. At least she got some cute content in Citadel though it’s a shame we’ll probably never see her again
Good thing there's a mod that somewhat fixes it
An actual Paragon Shepard line in the ME2 Miranda romance: "Who said anything aboot love; I'm just trying to get you into bed."
Then if you break up with her in 3 she's so grief-stricken she dies.
>Gets dumped once
>Fucking dies
@@pikmonwolfSomething something lots of hangups about being perfect, and being dumped is proof she wasn't perfect enough to stay with/perfect enough to love
I feel like a good TLDR on my thought on Miranda in ME3 is that for such a massive character ME2, it's impressive how much she was sidelined in ME3. Yes, I do know that was because Yvonne Strahovski (her voice actress) had scheduling conflicts but most likely that wouldn't have happened if ME3 wasn't as rushed as it was. Also, I do think that it would've been great for Grunt and Miranda to have character development together. After all, it would've been interesting to see their views on each other since they were both tankbred.
I never though about that. Yeah it would've been cool to get a real Grunt Miranda dynamic.
And as I said, I've never seen any official confirmation that scheduling was the reason she is so sidelines. As far as I can tell, it's a rumor.
Tank Bread?😂 how's it taste?😂 *tank-bred
@@pikmonwolf Three things. One I feel like part of the reason why Miranda seems averse to letting Grunt out of his tank (before you let him out and after you get his tank), is the fact that she hates the fact that she was tankbred since she hates that everything she accomplished can be traced back to her insane, and abusive father and since she hates that part of herself she has a disdain for people that are tankbred in general, so she's not sure about Grunt at first. That or I'm just overlaying it. Nonetheless, I feel like when the Krogn are trashing Grunt for being tankbred (during his loyalty mission) there should've been something from Miranda that shows that she doesn't like how she's tankbred, (somewhat) agrees with them or that she still doesn't like people attacking other just for being tankbred, or both, or just anything.
Second I feel like I wouldn't take as much issue with there being very little Miranda Lawson in ME3 If it wasn't for the fact that what we did get of her was pretty bad since it's all just a repeat of her loyalty mission from the first game except worse. So, not only was she sidelined in ME3 but what was there wasn't very good. Quality always matters more than quantity but when you have neither it's bad.
And third, I feel like while people love making fun of the "I could sustain the field too, in theory, any biotic could" line from the suicide mission, and while it's one of the most mocked lines in the ME trilogy, people don't address the elephant in the room, which could be easy to forget What I'm trying to say is that in the first game, Asari Matarich Benezia put up a biotic field when you were fighting her minions but not her, and she had trouble maintaining the field, and failed doing so, and Asari Matirachs are the most powerful biotics in the universe. Yes, I know she was going through internal struggle with indoctrination but that doesn't change the fact that she failed even though she was one of the most powerful biotics in the galaxy at the time. What I'm trying to say is that while this is easy to forget the first game did make it clear that maintaining a biotic field for a long time is very hard, so most biotics can't maintain the field both in theory and in practice.
Your comment reminds me of a fanfic I read like... god, 10ish years ago? I'll see if I can still find it somewhere. If I do I'll link it. "Lab Rats in Space" or something like that was its name. A spoof piece about the 3 experiments gone wrong, aka Grunt, Jack and Miranda, teaming up for a while after the ME2 finale and getting into all sorts of trouble. I still remember it had this recurring joke with Jack constantly teasing both of them over her actually having been properly conceived and born while the other two weren't and Miri and Grunt would team up and return fire.
Even if her voice actress was completely avaible, She wouldnt've been as involved it seems. Javik of all people who is a DLC character gets more screentime than Miranda.
Worst, she is not even at the ending scene with the rest of the crew when they are hanging the Shepard's name on the memorial wall.
Miranda is just as part of the crew (more than Vega, Ash or Kaidan) and definetly should be there.
these are always a comfy watch
Merry Christmas!
I will say she was completely mishandled in three you think cerber is being a huge treacherous organization would make her trips to the citadel slightly more of a hassle however her calling herself out on the control chip which is what the illusive man does with his troops.
True, she does provide good foreshadowing in that regard.
Its funny you mentioned that Miranda should've been on the Normandy because that was actually her intended role. She was intended be asked to join the Normandy as a non-Squadmate character, and modders found content in the game files where she would've been able to be found in the Normandy's boardroom looking over a datapad.
It would've been really cool if she was a crewmate. She could be injured if they needed an excuse.
One big problem the Mass Effect series suffers from IMO is that it almost feels like the writers of each game hated the previous installment and sought to undo/ignore everything it did. Mass Effect 1 makes a big deal about you being a Spectre and sets up the Cipher as this big important thing, then 2 mostly sidelines the Spectre/Alliance stuff and completely forgets about the Cipher. Then 2 establishes Cerberus as this somewhat morally grey entity and foreshadows a plot about dark energy, but 3 comes along and says Cerberus are fully evil and forgets about the dark energy stuff.
Miranda getting sidelined in 3 is a part of this- it’d make sense with how she got a ton of focus and was hard to lose in the previous game that she would be a major character (and probably a squadmate) in the next, but instead it just seemed like the writers were uninterested in her, and her story feels like an afterthought. I don’t know if they just truly didn’t like the character all that much or if they didn’t have enough dev time to do something bigger (or both), but it’s a huge missed opportunity regardless.
2 is the odd one out I'd say. At least 1 and 3 feel like they're telling the same story about the reapers, the discordant galaxy and how horrible cereberus is. Most of 3's retcons have to do with retconning 2's retcons lol.
A lot of the characters who made their first appearance in me2 seem to have been thrown to the wayside with short missions or relegated to a couple of appearances in ME3. I think BioWare recognized that there wasn’t a whole lot of connection built to them as much as there was for characters who carried over from ME1
It was also the fact that they might all be dead and so the work might be for nothing.
@asdffdsaasdf12345678 this is probably reason number 1. As I was playing ME3 for the first time I knew all squadmates from the previous game would have a very reduced role....
unless they are named Garrus and Tali of course xD
Nah, I believe it was always planned that they wouldn't be returning. Due to the structure of the suicide mission. Hell even Tali was going to be left out of 3 at first. Only Garrus was gonna return.
A huge part of it is also the 'promise' that bioware made with the ME trilogy and how all your choices would matter.
Now look at all the extra stuff they added to ME2 *during* the development of ME3. They couldn't possibly account for everything, so things had to be trimmed.
Miranda being the most likely to live and being given the least screentime in 3 is not one of those cuts I'd have expected.
There's also the fact that each companion in ME2 could die in it (yes I know you can't import your save if all companions die but any companion could die during ME2). So, every time a companion from ME2 did something in ME3 Bioware would have to make an alternative version for the story to work. That meant creating new characters and lines that needed to be recorded, and POSSIBLE story changes.
Miranda in ME2: My sister and my father
Miranda in ME3: My father and my sister
Booooooooring. Also I'm still mad that her sister just looks like "NPC female human #219" and not like a slightly younger Miranda.
Yeah Oriana is very clearly made with the generic NPC tools
"genetic twin" like girl where
The thing that annoys me about the Miranda/Jack argument is there’s no way to actually resolve it. With Tali and Legion, Shepard points out the flaws in both of their thinking and even gets them to come up with a compromise, but with Miranda and Jack, Shepard just goes “Hey, don’t do this right now.” Sure, it gets them to stop fighting, but it does nothing about the actual issue they were having in the first place
That's a really good point and something that I feel like I thought about subconsciously. Tali and Legion's argument feels better since Shepard can take a neutral stance and get both of them to compromise and see the other's perspective (Tali gets that Legion wants to absorb more information for the Geth but Legion comes to understand that some of the stuff he wanted to send would've been dangerous for the Quarians survival which was already up to question.)
With Miranda and Jack, there is no logical way to remain neutral when one side is completely wrong. Cerberus tortured not just Jack, but other subjects in that facility. I get that Miranda has flaws and does shift to be apologetic for Cerberus' actions before ditching them in the Collector base, but there is no chance in hell anything she says in that moment would convince a sane person that Cerberus was even a little right in what they did. What they should've done is keep the Paragon/Renegade checks incredibly difficult, but have Shepard reprimand Miranda for Cerberus' experiments while also getting Jack to seek a better solution than violence and revenge even if it is justified to a degree. Miranda is in the wrong, but what Jack is seeking in return might not be worth it in the long run either. This is far from an ideal solution but it would be something more other than just Shepard getting the both of them to hand wave the issue and never revisit it.
The Miranda and Jack fight is better if Miranda goes on Jack's loyalty mission. While there, she jumps on a quote from one of the scientists that mentions that they were hiding things from the Illusive Man. Miranda's comments in the argument then come across as her clinging to anything that can disassociate Cerberus from the indefensible cruelty of what happened to the children. It's the same tactic she uses when adding talking about the experiments with Rachni and Thorian creepers. Bringing her on the final mission is then extra satisfying as she is being asked to directly participate in something awful. She can no longer defend Cerberus and her morality wins out over blind loyalty.The arcs of some characters in ME2 were beautifully written.
I think it makes sense for her to deny that it was Cerberus. The "clearly you were a mistake" is what crosses the line
@pikmonwolf Yes, it definitely does cross a line. Still, Miranda admits she isn't free of normal human failings, which in this case is saying something stupid when she's angry.
They could've made her a crew member in ME3, maybe have her join The Alliance after ME2.
Joining the alliance is a fun idea. I get why she isn't a full crew mate though.
Okay, Miranda is one of my favorite character in the series, in the top 3 with Liara and Garrus and in the top 4 if we include Shepard themselvef, so I am obviously biased. However, there only needs to be a few little tweakes with the scripting in ME2 for her to be at her best. Way back in the day, I made some mods with the .INI file to adjust the timing of her lines and her loyalty mission. In my versoin of events she remains cold and detatched and defensive all the way until the second patch of dossiers are unlocked and at least 3 other loyalty missions are completed, including Jack's. I also removed the dire consequences for the Jack-Miranda fight and made those Paragon/Renegate options are the defaults. After that Miranda warms up to you, even mentioning the altercation with Jack (now recontextualized as her loosing her cool and Jack getting to her, which unsettles her, makes her think) and thal leads into her loyalty mission after. Much more organic character arc with growth and change.
The ME3's colossal waste of the character can be rectified now with the Miranda mod. Which restores her to the position I always thought was supposed to be hers -- Normandy's XO. In ME3 there is no XO at all. Liara does not count, even though she moves inot that office. James in a jarhead. It is never addressed in the game, but the duties of running the ship and the crew are seemingly just pushed onto EDI. And I'm sure she could do all that, but I never understood why could the devs not just bring Miranda back. (Personally, I am tempted to surmise that Mac Walters sidelined most of hard-to-write characters because of time constaints and lack of confidence. Wchich tracks since, you know, the one new character he brought from the books was... Kai Leng.)
And another big favorable thing in my eves that elevates Miranda is that she is one of the few Love Interests that are truly influenced by the player. Thane and Garrus retain their core philosophy and woldviews, regardless of player inflence, they do not fundamentally change. Thane philosophy about being a 'tool' and rejecting personal responsibility reamains firm, his guilt and regret remain personal about his family and only that. Garrus' vigilantism and crusade for righteous punishment and contempt for due process devolves into being dangerously close to faschism in ME3. Even if you as Shepard persuade him not to go through one instance of revenge-murder, he never repudiates his past actions as anything but entirely justified. Garrus is amazing badass, but he is not a good person. (The least said about Jacob, the better.) On the reverse there are Liara, Miranda, Tali, Jack and Ash, whose entire ideologies and worldviews are changed over their character arcs, in huge part because of Shepar's influence and you as a player can decide how to use that influence. Garrus, Thane and Jacob remain the same sort of person, even if you persuade them to change, they're static at their core. The others you can influence, for better or worse, but you can. And that agency will always be worth a lot for me.
Sorry for a wall of text of a comment.
Good write up! And I've adjusted my game similarly as well, mostly to give myself more time with Legion.
I agree with everything except "James in (is?) a jarhead." That's the comment of someone who didn't engage with any of Vega's in between game content. EGM lets you set an XO, and until you get the Virmire survivor, Vega is the obvious choice. He was Shepard's security guard for a reason. Miranda is Cerberus; she's never on the Alliance Normandy as an officer until AFTER the war.
@christineherrmann205 yeah, that typo oof. You're right, I have not read or seen any of the external content, just the games. I know James has his own story and it's good, but I have not seen it myself. But just based on ME3 alone and the way his role was scripted and acted -- he's a jarhead. He is a capable soldier and all that, but also a blunt instrument. Maybe if he had more screen time so to speak, I'd be convinced.
Also, nothing about Normandy is normal. Especially in ME3. Alliance took a Cerberus high tech frigate, pulled a bunch of stuff out, took a hammer to it, slapped the Alliance logo on the side and suddenly it's 100% an Earth ship? Pfft. Liara moves in with a whole giant Broker apparatus, is that up and up on the regs? Shepard was on trial barely an hour before he took command of Normandy again. Reinstating Miranda would be nothing out of the ordinary for all the crazy stuff that happens even at the very beginning of that game. :D
Garrus I like to think does change.
Yes, He does become Archangel after ME1 regardless of your choices but thats because you quite literally die before having enough time to rub off on him. None of the ME1 characters are altered by Shepard's actions with the exception of Saren.
Contrary, ME2 versions are quite opposite of what we expect of our old companions.
Tali is mostly the same but crushed under a job she is clearly not fit for.
Liara grows completely cold after loss of Shepard, the crew, her mother and the blatant ignorance of the council upon their silently phasing out anything related to Reapers.
Kaidan/Ashley turns into jarheads. Ash, I can expect (not because I hate her character) since she is fanatical about being a soldier. But Kaidan? The man who has L2 implants? The man who is exactly aware how the government operates? That is not the kind of man to be paranoid about Shepard even after ME2.
Wrex grows soft. Remember, He hated Krogan life and despised what their culture had become. He wanted nothing to do with Tuchanka. After ME1 however he turns back to Tuchanka to save his kind. He is the only one who has 180% changed but even that is not caused directly by Shepard. He just saw how Saren and others are keep going to use his kin and decided to do something about it.
Garrus wants to change if you go Paragon but you dont stick around long enough to show him how. Until he hears about your death, he tries to do better. After your death and Council's abysmall idiocracy however he goes back to what he is comfortable with. Shooting bad guys on sight. Who can be worse than Blood Pack and Eclipse anyways?
ME2 is where Shepard actually starts to alter each character's ideologies as his own is also forced to change.
ME1 Shepard would NOT, Under any circumstances, work for Cerberus. This one does and upon doing so realises majority of the Cerberus personnel are either desperate for money or outright victims of propaganda.
Garrus after ME2 (assuming you are going paragon) does not fall back to his old habits. For one, he goes back to Palaven and screams on top of his lungs until somebody does listen. He goes all the way from uncaring vigilante to politician without benefits.
I wont write the rest as this thing is already a massive wall of text but you get my point.
That sounds really interesting and a much more compelling (and logical) arc for Miranda. Is it very complicated to edit the .ini files in this way in order to achieve that? Is there a guide for this somewhere, or do you know if there is an actual mod that makes these changes that you made to your own game? :)
your miranda impression cracks me the fuck up
"Security micks"
Mordin isn't the hardest to keep alive in the collector base, since he's very likely to either be in your squad or doing the escort, while the dangerous position is holding the line.
Tali however, is fairly useless against Collectors, so she won't be in your squad and has the second lowest hold score, making her the likelest to die.
Then she's the one who comes back as a full squadmate despite other former squaddies having weaker excuses than "I'm an admiral" for not joining you.
i managed to keep her alive pretty easily. i brought her along to face the human - reaper larva alongside jack, and since she was loyal she survived
Mordin is a logical choice for escort since he's a doctor, in my first playthrough I sent him back with them, but I wouldn't say you can count on that.
@@pikmonwolf You can't count on sending him back, but Incinerate is useful against armor, and you're up against a lot of armor. Him or Miranda will probably be your "mage" in the final battle.
It's a popularity contest. Tali and garrus are some of the most popular teammates with the most rabid fans. Not including either of them wouldn't have gone over well with fans
@gamuhnerdu4759 You say that, but, Kaidan is the least popular and he's a squaddie if you for some reason didn't nuke him. Wrex is not.
Merry Christmas to me! My favorite Mass Effect youtuber uploaded a new video!
Oh, who? :P
Honestly the whole not recruiting Miranda thing in me3 could have been as simple as
1. I need to find Oriana
2. You’re on a warship in the war to end all wars, I can’t risk dying for her sake
Yeah that would be better than what we have, which is no excuse lol
Man I really wished that Miranda would've ended up joining the Alliance after the events of ME2 upon seeing first hand how much harm Cerberus was capable of doing.
That would be better than how it got handled in 3 lol.
That's a fun idea
I have not once ever had trouble keeping Mordin alive in the Collector base
The real difficulty is holding the line, he's first in line to die there if everybody is loyal.
@pikmonwolf Not if you leave him with at least one of the highest rated companions such as Garrus and Zaeed
My team comp always varies depending on what character build I'm running, but I always set Garrus as the second team leader and always leave Mordin and Grunt or Zaeed with him while sending Jacob back with the crew. Works every time as long as everyone's loyal
I’ve always had a bit of a chuckle when people say Mordin is hard to keep alive in the Collector base.
It’s very simple; stop taking Garrus everywhere with you and just leave him to hold the line along with the other two powerhouses (Zaeed and Grunt), and everyone will survive every time assuming each companion is loyal.
Like, 99% of the time if someone says Mordin died holding the line, it’s because they took Garrus to the final fight and there wasn’t enough strength staying back. (Sure, you could say it’s because they actually took Zaeed or Grunt with them, but come on, we know exactly which of the three tough guys most people keep in their party.)
The real comedy, though, happens when they send Mordin back with the crew, take Garrus with them to the final fight, and then Tali is the one who dies holding the line instead since she’s next on the death list if the line isn’t strong and Mordin isn’t there.
Well true, he's easy to keep alive if you know the system. But on a first playthrough you don't know how it works and can easily get him killed there.
@@pikmonwolf Really? I always picked him as an escort for the Normandy crew and he always did that fine. So I never noticed:D
Almost every godawful decision in this franchise can be traced back to Mac Walters - not limited to the absolute destruction of Chris Etole’s Geth, the wholesale retcon of Cerberus, the character assassination of TIM, the infantilizing treatment of the Quarians in ME3, hell the entire narrative of ME3 for that matter, and literally all of Andromeda.
I want to fight that man. 😂
Thank you for the holiday video. Merry Christmas.
Hey he's better than Emil
What a great holiday gift of a video. Always love your mass effect content
Thanks mate! Happy New Year
Miranda and jacob should have been choices like Kaidan or Ashley. And Bioware should have made the not chosen, the alternate version of Kai Leng in Mass Effect 3, that would have made perfect sense.
ooooh that would have been cool idea
@@jorgeenriquez637 90% would go for Miranda not only is she a better character her abilities are beyond overpowered unlike Jacob who's just one step above Jack who's possibly one of the worst.
Fun idea, but it would be very onesided lol
There is a mod that does just that. It turns one of them into Cerberus Assassin instead of Leng.
@@pikmonwolf I maintain that it's insane that you HAVE TO lose one character in ME1, *might* lose a 2nd... but in ME2, the "suicide" mission, it's child's play to lose 0 (as long as you remember to rush to the Miranda/Jack confrontation or the bug will fuck you).
I think you should have to lose *at least* two characters: 2 of Jacob, Thane, and Zaeed. I'd say the default ought to be Jacob and Thane - Jacob would be a hell of a lot better (less bad) if he died at the end of 2, and Thane's cameo in ME3 was a bit of a slap in the face. (I also think he's just a really fucking boring character trope.) With the ability to sub in Zaeed for either if you really want to because Zaeed is an aging mercenary, him dying during the mission makes sense to me.
Man.. Miranda was my favorite new romance in 2, only for them to completely drop the ball in 3.
The infamous ass shot could’ve worked, if it was done after Miranda said something funny or right before the engine room scene.
The fact that her butt covers nearly half the screen when Miranda talks about the danger Oriana is what makes it laughable.
Leaning into Miranda's trauma as a genetically tailored biotic with an equally engineered sister was something I wanted to focus on in my fanfic, because I was writing a Shepard that shared that trait. It's what should eventually bond her and Jack, once they both deal with what Cerberus did... and I wanted to write that. You're right that she's written unevenly, and they leave a lot on the table.
I saw a Lawson mod where she is in the game as an official companion
Yeah it's a cool option
But i do agree that she didnt deserved to be sidelined. She would love to give Cerberus some payback
If you think about it, a Miranda/Jack conflict could've done so much better if they'd shifted the focus and gotten deep with it. Because if you think about it, both of them were 'created perfect' in a way. Miranda got perfect jeans, Jack got exceptional biotic powers. Miranda 'embraced' her gift (hid in the shadows, pretended to be fine with it, cultivated her own power so she could theoretically break free, but doesn't because Cerberus gives her security) and Jack 'spurned' her gift (was tortured, refused to give in, became rebellious and violent, etc); both of them would have reason to envy the other ("Miranda has never had to work for her power, has always been respected, has always been perfect"/ "Jack has freedom and exceptional power but wastes it, Jack is ungrateful, Jack hates us even though we're trying to help" etc.) without actually understanding one-another. I feel like if they sat down to really talk and hang out they would learn that they're very similar, and could probably grow from one-another.
Plus it'd be really funny to see them bonding and Jack encouraging Miranda to get an undercut and a tattoo.
I always thought they should romance each other if Shepard doesn't romance either.
I do like their dialogue in the Citadel DLC, where they're chilling
When I first played ME3 and the Cerberus assassin who becomes EDI's body first showed up, I thought it was Miranda. Imagine if we'd gotten a loyal to Cerberus Miranda instead of Kai Leng in ME3.
Some fans think that the robot’s body was based on Miranda’s.
12:50 or have to pass a paragon/renegade check with Miranda.
The issue is that she would still die regardless and that would feel kind of bad
@@pikmonwolf It would mirror the paragon/renegade choice made at the end of ME1 which has Saren die either way. It's a good bit of flavor even if the outcome is the same.
I always hated how every single character introduced in Mass Effect 2 refuses to join you in 3 but none of them annoyed me as much as Miranda. I really wanted her to join me, and it would have made the romance far more compelling.
I get why, that was something they decided on when they were making Mass Effect 2.
Both Tali and Garrue technically return as squad mates from ME2. They are actually more likely to die than Miranda. She should have definitely joined.
@ yeah but they’re not introduced in ME2, although their romances are so make of that what you will
@@Tgsva352 Bioware literally bite more than they can chew, to many characters to many romances, to many options, sacrifices been inevitable. I think they look at most popular options and make decision. On other side, no one asked about Vega, but they made him anyway.
As great as suicide mission was in a vacuum, it was a mistake to have it as the final mission of the middle game and not the last game.
If Miranda was a man, an assassin, remorseful, pious, green and a drell she would be perfect
If she was a man, a ninja, a cyborg, an OC, and a spite consumer of another man’s cereal she’d be beyond perfect.
Hey, still counts as daddy issues either way
You're not gonna believe this
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it was super weird that she goes from extremely rude, to friendly, and then back to rude during Jack's loyalty mission. She also doesn't feel like a Cerberus operative at times even though we know she is...her RA RA CERBERUS attitude comes out of nowhere sometimes.
"Just a reminder, I AM in a racist cult :3"
Funny enough about Miranda's Biotic powers what makes the most sense to me is that Miranda is better described as a skilled biotic where as Jack is better described as a powerful Biotic with Samara being both. Miranda is a tactician is would be more precise with her biotics making a one on one fight with her risky since she'll find and set up opportunities to strike where as Jack is more of a sledgehammer. I think this distinction is rather important when talking about who is more powerful if folks want to go with a tier list. Miranda is described as being on the level of an Asari commando who should easily be able to make that walk BUT Miranda relies on anonymity for defense so her Biotic bubbles are less developed. Miranda is very much used to being offensive with her biotics. So her failing to do the walk makes perfect sense as she doesn't use brute strength to solve problems all that much. I just wish gameplay wise we got to have some of these abilities. It's kind of funny how games like Helldivers and Space Marines are really close to what I was wanting Mass Effect gameplay to be like but BioWare doesn't seem to know how to make good use of defensive abilities in their gameplay. They did all right in Anthem. Maybe they learned a few things. Just annoying that the writing around biotic barriers is wildly inconsistent from every game. Would love to see what they could do with like a minigame sport where biotics could face each other similar to the duels they did in Harry Potter.
I will say that Mass Effect 3 has great gameplay, and the multiplayer has a lot of creative powers
@pikmonwolf I agree. Just wish I could use a well-timed barrier to block attacks. Not enough enemies to use the same attacks against us that we use on them sort of thing.
I feel like Miranda definitely should have been a squadmate in ME3, especially considering she can't die in ME2 unless you really go out of your way to do it. The lack of ME2 squadmates in ME3 is crazy because somehow all of them have shit to do and yet the ones that don't after you help them still can't join you (i.e. Miranda, Samara, Kasumi, Zaeed etc)
Apparently it was always planned that they would not return in the third game, even early in Mass Effect 2's development
There's alot, alot, alot I want to say on this but I don't want to overload a whole comment for people to dig through, so its stinks, but I was in a chat room for a Mass Effect trilogy run to analysis and review the series in and out and people in the chat literally went, "Miranda if you're so concerned about being found by your father why not join the Normandy?" which you point out but you can give so much more to her for the third game like having her and Ashley just talking and understanding each other's perspective and learn they're alot alike. To Ashley. One is extremely loyal to the Alliance, the other Cerberus. One is fiery but can be made to show a softer side, the other starts out as an Ice Queen who defrosts. One is very close with her sisters, the other prefers to observe her from afar, which she and Ashley would probably look out for each other like being with Ashley while her sister grieves and Ashley helps Miranda with her sister and keeping her worries in check. There's so much you can do with her characterwise.
that would've been a fun dynamic. Fun fact when I first played the series, from what little I had seen I didn't realize Miranda and Ashley were different people.
Really enjoy good content without cursing
This was a really good breakdown
Well I do a little cursing, but I've toned it down lol
I never loked Miranda from the get go, so I never cared, but you got a point... A very solid point.
Like I said, she's a controversial character
Just found out your channel after watching the Arrival DLC rant, totally worth it
I still cant believe Mirada lawson was dating the bay harbor butcher….
Even identical clones are still able to look different due to the environment they grew up. Miranda mostly grew up secluded with dad or on the run till Cerberus reached out. Her sister grew up in a loving family without the pressure from crazy dad. Plus age difference
That's true, but it doesn't really look like changes caused by nature, rather different facial structures. If anything the ways they do look similar would be how they look different. And there's Mass Effect 3 with a huge difference
7:45 them looking different makes sense here, they look super similar but Ori looks softer - pudgier. She's lived a simple normal life, of course she's not gonna be super fit like her sister.
I have to ask…. Are you doing all of the squadmates in all 3 games? That’d be pretty cool to see your opinion for everyone.
At this rate, I'll probably end up doing that lol
Personally I felt the morally gray area of Miranda's mission was more about what lengths you would go for financial stability. As in is integrity more important than money and making a grand legacy for yourself.
I also think her back and forth friendliness could be an act in order to get what she wants out of people until a situation gets out of hand for her and she shows her true self. And I imagine her history with Shepard (the chip and occasionally being a bitch to her) made it difficult for her to truly ask Shepard (and in turn her allies) for help. Plus, the Shadow Broker was far too busy with the war to look into everything else going on.
I also like to think Miranda's father survived the fall only to then be torn apart by the husks he created.
I mean Liara is willing to help the crew, I believe she agrees to try to find Joker's sister for example.
@pikmonwolf true, but aside from only being able to learn a bare minimum (which is ironic considering you can learn the fate of Jeff's family by listening to an asari patient in the hospital during the game's first act), Miranda isn't part of the crew and theirs other crew members families (Garrus and James for example that she couldn't find). Just like there were other in game secrets (the krogan females, the turian bomb on Tuchanka, or the Prothean beacon on her own home world. Which proves that the Shadow Broker's information network is far from perfect.
The first time I played Mass Effect 2 I waited to finish every loyalty mission before going to the Collector Base. The last loyalty mission I had to do was Jack's, and I remember feeling so hyped to finally have everyone's loyalty for the suicide mission. I was not expecting the Miranda meltdown after Jack's mission, and I definitely wasn't expecting to lose Miranda's loyalty when I sided with Jack during that confrontation. That happening literally right before going to the Collector Base is why I didn't feel bad when Miranda was the only squadmate that didn't survive. She did it to herself
Like most of my squadmates i completly forgotten about her until the game made me interact with her
the only explanation i have for oriana looking different to miranda is age gap but even then thats a fine line to tread on
Yeah, especially since Oriana looks older than Miranda in 3
I know some people complain about Miranda looks but it honestly does make sense in universe. If you were a filthy rich narcissist who made a daughter from scratch to be a "perfect physical specimen" why not make her look like a sex goddess?
I killed off Miranda my first play through by having her die in the collecter base and then felt bad when she resigned from the illusive man since I knew her fate
Miranda got Tali killed in the vents in my first ever playthrough... I lost her loyalty in the confrontation with Jack. I haven't ever fully forgiven her for that.
To be fair you probably shouldn't put disloyal people in charge :P
@pikmonwolf Yeah I learned that lesson the hard way...
All the ME 2 characters got the shaft in ME3, but I wish she had been a party member since the beginning. I got a mod to get her in ME3 because it's bullshit she wasn't a party member.
Yeah, of any of the new characters from 2 she deserved to be a squadmate the most.
This isn’t a Miranda problem, it’s a ME2 Cerberus problem. Your uneasy alliance with Cerberus, the moral ambiguity of the situation, and the distrust it should manifest is all resolved too quickly and easily.
I agree, I wish it was handled better
Thank you for the Christmas gift :)
Miranda got the biggest shafting form the decision to not let any ME2 squadmates that aren't Tali and Garrus on board the Normandy. The rerun of her loyalty mission but slower pissed me off especially because I had a romanced run of hers on deck after my first playthrough. So much potential just willfully unrealized.
🗣️ Christmas Pikmonwolf video
Ho Ho Ho
its crazy how much praise these games get, especially ME2, despite 2 and 3 reading so much like an unedited first draft. can you imagine if they were actually given time to cook on these games? the complete lack of plan for the two Cerberus companions they introduced is so silly.
I should clarify that I love these games lol. but its funny to think how great these games are and somehow we got the worst version of it.
ME2 is the most eggregious one to me. I see it constantly being called the best Bioware game ever when the game's plot is, to be generous to it, "frail".
Nice breakdown of her character and story; my opinion generally is that they over corrected after Morrigan. So they don't let her warm up naturally, even though it makes sense for her personal warmth for Shepard to grow inversely to her opinion of Cerberus ( assuming they are anti-Cerberus, which even a Renegade Shep should be).
8:24 Best line of the misson, love you Jack.
Correction: Having to commit at least one murder to join the Eclipse only applied to the Sisterhood on Illium. It's not a universal policy. Keep in mind that Eclipse mainly involves itself with smuggling Element Zero, which you don't need every member to be a trained killer for. It also explains why they use so many mechs, makes mining and transporting safer and cheaper.
Okay but Miranda's mission takes place in the same city as Samara's. So even if it's only there...
I never found Miranda mean. In the beginning she's down-to-earth no-nonsense all-business. She's covering for curiosity about Shepard, maybe jealousy and remembering that (canonically) Shepard hates Cerberus and she doesn't feel like apologizing for think she hasn't done. Cold -maybe, but not mean.
"Down to Earth" my guy she talks about how she's mad she couldn't make you a slave lol
@pikmonwolf No, she talks about her insecurities of having an ardent Cerberus enemy as the main man for the mission. About a fail-safe switch. She doesn't have the benefit of boot camp and propaganda training for me - you're surprised she wants some control? Everyone wants and tries (and damn well should) to control their army as tight as possible. What do you think military training in regular army does - it's prime aim is to make sure soldiers follow orders no hesitation (through indoctrination and muscle training). Cerberus doesn't have that with Shepard. So a control switch is a simple, crude, but possibly effective tool for that aim. It's harsh, hut it's practical, still not mean. Plus - remember she regrets and has a lot remorse because of that idea. Joker's answers to "what do you think about the people we've been picking up" are meaner than that.
@@artursandwich1974 It wasn't a fail safe switch, it was a full control chip. She later mentions that it would've fully removed your free will
@pikmonwolf cool. Full control. You win. I still don't find her being MEAN about it.
I have to admit, my experience as a player with her was always a mild annoyance that can be summed up with "why are you here?" Like in the story, on my ship, on my crew. I just contextualised her as nothing more than one of the many annoyances foisted on the player by Cerberus in return for bringing the player back to life and building the 'N2ormandy' (woolieversus reference)
I didn't even notice how OP she was as a squad member, It's interesting that i was oblivious to the positive aspects, they didn't register with me at all at the time.
I always thing i'll disagree with your points but always end up appreciating your points! I'd be interested with why you have issues with the ME2 gangs, I always found them quite interesting.
Commenting because I love your vids and love her so much. Miranda is my favorite in all fiction.
First, her character could benefit a lot from having interactions with Grunt, who has the same creation as her. What would she think if she sees how different they are? Would she be super protective of him or resent him because he doesn't feel pressured to carry the burden of trying to live up to expectaions as her? Second, Clone Shepard who despite having the same level of capabilities is not as great as real Shephard. It proves that Shepard's and her strengths do not only come from their innate abilities, but also what they choose to do with them.
Mass Effect 3's story is a train wreck and I wholeheartedly agree with every single criticism you shared about the third game. Mass Effect 3 really mishandled Miranda and Jacob's characters.
I disagree with most of your criticisms about Miranda in Mass Effect 2 however. This is because she is brainwashed by Cerberus (for example, during the Jack/Miranda fight), so the behavior is actually very consistent with her character. The one part of Mass Effect 2 I do share issue with is Miranda's response to the Illusive Man if she's not loyal to you being the same as the loyal response.
I get your point, but if she's brainwashed she shouldn't side with you at the end if disloyal or be happy if you undercut Cerberus.
I genuinely don't believe you when you say Miranda is OP in ME2. As someone who never really liked her enough to keep bringing her everywhere like some of the GOATs, I don't remember ever feeling like she made the times I did bring her with me easier. So I don't have enough experience to be sure, and that's a good reason to replay ME2 insanity yet again.
A big piece of it is the passive buffs she gives you. Easy to miss, but makes a huge difference.
If you ever run out of video ideas for Mass Effect I would love to see you do videos on other story/choice games like Telltale games or Life Is Strange.
It is kinda sad that in Mass Effect 2, you only fight the Collectors in 4 missions and for the majority of the game, have to deal with 3 mercenary gangs with basically no connection to the same plot.
Yeah, I agree. I wish we got a couple more collector encounters. I think they mess up by having the ship be so OP.
Id love to see your take on Garus at some point in the future 🤞🤞
Please do one on Kaiden, I’d be so interested to hear your thoughts on him, I think he’s so underrated
I'd be down to, I just worry that it wouldn't perform that well honestly
I've read that part of Miranda's plot in ME2 was redone totally. I believe the barebones of her original layout is still preserved in ME2s file architecture. It calls for storybeats - there was no sister plot. She was far more femme fatal. She was digging up dirt on TIM for her loyalty mission and you could push her towards Jacob (both in a femme fatal way and a more legitimate way).
Then she went through a rewrite. This might account for her inconsistent characterization.
Usually I agree with almost all of your points in these Mass Effect videos, but this time I respectfully disagree. To me, Miranda never came off as having a sharp moment of warming-up to you.
She is extremely cold at the start and gives it up very quickly, sure - but not turning into your friend immidiatly. Rather, she just becomes less cold and more chaty, seeing that Shepherd was probably actually really worth the investment (as opposed to her explicit thoughts when asked about it at the start). So she becomes less hostile, but also stays professional. It is only after her loyalty mission that she becomes your friend. I'd say her pacing in ME2 was pretty much perfect on that front.
Miranda in ME3 on the other hand is an entirely different matter. I agree with you completely about how they wasted her in that game, which is, for me, the reason she's not as strong a character - most of the squadmates were introduced with great premises in ME2, but got to actually provide emotional payoff in ME3. Garrus, Liara, Tali, Mordin, legion, Thane, even Joker, all got their characters truly developed and dynamic in ME3. So those who performed badly in that game would be remembered less fondly.
Also, Miranda being a narcissistic snob and her also being nice to you later, while still being horrible to Jack, is actually non-contradictory and makes a lot of sense - she unfortunately has those negative characteristics (in addition to her good ones), which are muted in front of people she has warmed up to, you being one of them after helping her with her sister. She being your friend doesn't mean she can't be completely irational and unfair towards someone she hates.
I strongly agree with everything you've said here
This video got me to thinking...
... dangerous, I know, but work with me...
... what happened to (best bro) Wrex between ME2 and ME3? Too much ryncol? Why did he turn from an understated, thoughtful, quietly sarcastic force of concentrated violence into a boisterous blowhard of violence trying to out-quip Garrus?
.
They had the good sense to allow him as a squadmate in the Citadel DLC, at least. It was good to see him in action one last time.
Great video! Miranda is one of my favourite characters in Mass Effect. A pity she didn't have a bigger role in ME3.
Yeah, she's such an afterthought
My brothers in christ, we are fighting the reapers, not building yet another team for a suicide mission, what the hell can miranda do in the war when she got merked by the collector if you choose her to hold the shield??
i was always kinda annoyed my mirandas role in three mostly cause it takes finishing the mission right before the point of no return to get her to be in the citadel dlc, and seeing as how you get the dlc like right at the start of the game im willing to bet most players didnt get to see her at the party
its the same pacing problem with arrival where you just get the prompt to start the dlc at the wrong time
Yeah, and I feel like the whole DLC fits better between Rannoch and Thessia, since you just scored a big win
except if you wanna have all your squadmates there you gotta wait until the end when it makes zero sense to take shore leave
How ME2 character were treated in ME3 is always a blow for me. Especially how reduced to cameos even the important ones were.
And as much as I like Grunts "final" stand I wanted my baby krogan boy back on the ship. Screw Vega he doesn’t deserve to be the replacement pseudo-krogan
If you ask me, Miranda should've been Kai Leng. The best Cerberus operative trying to undermine Shepard? That's Miranda. You can either call upon friendship to turn her away from Cerberus or if you do nothing, she becomes fully indoctrinatedcand you fight her. In the meantime, she could allow Cerberus coup on Citadel, take artifact from Thessia, set the bomb on Thuchanka, etc.
I’d rather have Jacob in that role. Maybe make it so he always “dies” in the collector base but Cerberus finds him when they are taking the human reaper back to Atlas station. He could be a rival to Shepard that’s bitter because Shepard left him at the base.
It would certainly have been better than what we got at least.
8:23 LMAO Jack
She never holds back
@@pikmonwolf No, she doesn't
In my first ever play-through of the Trilogy, I went for Miranda. However, during that very same play-through, I ended up dumping her... for Jack.
During each play-through after that, I never went for her (Miranda) again.
Jack's romance is pretty damn good
NEW PIKMONWOLF MASS EFFECT VIDEO 😩😩😩😩
Hell yeah
I’m all here for people talking about Mass Effect characters! It is a shame to think about Miranda’s potential use in better alternate stories
For sure, breaks he hear
Miranda is a Tsundere
This is why I've always preferred Jack over Miranda, even though you can't recruit her ME3 either her character arc feels much more satisfying. Seeing her become a mentor after everything she's been through legitimately makes me feel proud of her.
Never, I repeat never date crazy!
@foreaces4651 I meant as a character, not a romance option.
Yeah, it was a great place to take her story
What i think i love about her is that while yes she's clearly sexualized there's a reason behind it and it's something thatmakes sense. Her looks are also in a way reflective of her overconfident nature but it's a nature that she kinda gets to have because she's near perfect at everything. Yet she's more. When she opens up to you you learn she's not just this body you've been checking out and shes not just this cocky bitch. She has a heart. She has family. She even has flaws that she shares with you.
Yes, she has some major flaws in her writing and some others in the gameplay about her. But she's far from the worst and i think she's in fact underrated despite all these flaws youve mentioned being 100% true.
Yeah, the sexuality works. She enjoys flaunting it.
@@pikmonwolf yes, precisely! And as you put it she's a femme fatale character and I almost get the sense that she's in a way meant to try to keep Shepherd wrapped around her finger as a result (from the elusive man.) With her being the sexual interest and Jacob being a laid back reliable best friend type character. (At least that's what he is supposed to be but Garrus fills that role and he's got some major flaws)
Side note: With rumors of ME5 it's sad to think that every character we know and love will almost be guaranteed to not be there. It also means that whatever new things that they have us play as and with will have to compete with an incredibly tall order and standard.
Also, I absolutely LOVE your ME videos. I've been binge watching/listening to them all at work and even on my alone time.
Yeah, for me the Miranda Mod is an essential mod since it makes Miranda a squadmate again after horizon and gives her a romance scene back. Granted, it was made from spliced voice samples from unused VAs and Mass effect 2 but it worked. And later on, it did AI voice lines, which I can tolerate in a fan mod.
But that's not exactly canonical.
Yeah, I like it well enough but it just isn't the same as her being properly done
@@pikmonwolf You're not wrong. It's the same deal with the Happy Ending mod. It's something that makes the product as a whole better, but cannot be brought up seriously in a discussion.
It's effectively headcanon made actualized.
She had so much potential as a character. But I think they failed all the ME2 characters. And then relegating them basically to war assets in ME3 after like 1 remember me mission ...
They really needed to do them better. Especially her.
I wouldn't say they failed them all. Jack and Mordin get some very nice closure
Mordin is the exception for me. I have a lot of issues with ME2 in general.
Haven't watched the video yet, BUT my knee-jerk reaction is:
I fucking love Miranda. One of my favorite companions of all-time across all video games, I absolutely love how she slowly starts to open up to you as you impress her, as you start to accomplish more and more of your mission and show her what you're about. (She's kinda like the anti-Jacob in that respect, right? He's open at first, but NEVER reveals anything else; she's pretty stand-offish at first, but slowly warms to you.)
I prefer her romance above all others through the ME trilogy... except she just isn't in ME3, which is INSANE. She quits Cerberus, why doesn't she play a larger role in ME3???
I keep planning on making a video about how LE ME was a massive failure, and a top-3 issue is how partitioned off all the romances are; I get why ME2 holds back so many of your ME1 squadmates, but ME3 shouldn't be so stingy. It's such bullshit that you don't get to enjoy returning squadmates for ME2 in ME3 if they survived; they all play the smallest and most disappointing of roles. I assume that's what this video is about, how ME3 didn't do anything interesting with her (or... anybody from ME2?)
I like Andromeda significantly more than ME3, let's be real. ME3 not only fucks you over with regards to squadmates, but the main villain from the trilogy suddenly shifts from the Reapers to Cerberus, it's an insane - and badly handled - out-of-left-field shift. Especially given how you fuck over Cerberus in ME2, especially if you didn't give them the Collector base.
To be fair to 3, it was always planned that the squadmates in 2 wouldn't return. Even Tali was going to be left out. Garrus was the sole exception.
@@pikmonwolf *TERRIBLE* plan. That's worse than "How I Met Your Mother's" plan to kill off Cristin Milioti so that Ted could get with Robin at the end. Bad plan.
Voice actress was busy with the TV series Chuck so her role had to be minimal. Bioware prolly could've made better use of the time.
Given once you complete Jack and Miranda's loyality missions, the pair have a confrontation it would be better to give the player the loyaltiy mission near the end, as i always do Jack's mission before Miranda's (i just like Jack better), so i have this missions that meant to be time sensative mission just sitting around.
Plus given Shepard gives Jack access to Cerberus data that could have been a way to have an argument with Miranda plus gives us more Jack and Miranda cat fighting which is always fine.
Ah my favorite Cerberus Cheerleader. I fall on the side that really love her strengths but I can’t really disagree with any of the criticisms you brought up. On her blowup fight with Jack. I think what the writers were trying to portray was Jack coming into the convo like a wrecking ball saying Cerberus is an evil corp full if evil people and Miranda’s position was supposed to be poking holes in Jack’s “biased” argument by pointing out what happened to her was a mistake by a cell gone rogue and not a representation of what Ceberus stands for. I think they tried to further drive that home with that one holo on Pragia where the scientists were worried what TIM would do if he found out about their experiments. I’m pretty sure that’s what they were attempting to say even though they did a terrible job at trying to portray Cerberus in any light other than pure unrepentant bastards.
I think the fight would've worked better if Miranda was like "I'm sorry for what happened to you, truly, but it was not Cerberus who did it." Then both of them would have a fair point of view.
Like, I have always wanted to romance Miranda in ME2.....but move onto my man Kaidan in ME3......and yet, I don't want Miranda to die so, I don't. I wish her story survival if romanced was not dependant on that! I absolutely adore Miranda, her character and her story. Her friendship and how it grows over the course of ME2 with Shepard is so so good. I wish they had not dropped the ball with her in ME3 but...look at what they did to Thane....and Jack (I love how Jack is an instructor but she needed more screen time)....But, at least she lives if you break up with her in ME3.
I agree that Miranda dying if you break up with her isn't great it's an interesting idea but it just isn't done well. It would have worked better if it was sort of a cumulative points system like they use with the Virmire Survivor. You need to do a certain amount of things to keep her alive and it becomes harder if you break up with her but not impossible
Miranda isn't wrong about Jack, the teltin facility went rogue, not officially cerberus. And the abuse done to Jack was a mistake. Cerberus has done unethical experiments and committed lots of violence but teltin is the only instance of abusing human children and they make it clear the staff were keeping it hidden from the illusive man.
They should have reversed her options in the suicide mission, she has the personal strength to hold the bubble but she can't command the loyalty of the team. She's used to being in charge of soldiers or other cerberus agents that are part of a command structure, she's not a natural leader that can inspire a team of volunteers.
Considering all the game files tend to refer to her character as "Vixen", I think it's pretty obvious why the writing for her falls down on the job.
Seriously? That's shameless lol
@ to be fair I suspect that was more of an effort to guard against pre-release spoilers via data mining? All the characters are referenced by vague descriptors rather than names, so I have to assume there was a purpose to keeping things non-specific. Either that or they began building a lot of the quests and levels related to the characters before they settled on a name. Because the stuff that was probably finalized later in the development process-like the characters appearance files-use her name. But a location related to her personal quests or something to that effect (it’s been a while since I’ve worked on mods for the game, so I’m unable to cite specific examples of this happening but it very much jumped out at me) would have assets named as belonging to “vixen” in various ways. Which is telling about what the creators considered her earliest defining characteristics.
TBF to her clone sister, it could be she alters her hair or the like somewhat, for one reason or another
I distrusted Jacob immediately lol. At least Miranda was an actual Ice Queen who slowly thawed out. If you utilize the mods for her, when she does join the Normandy it feels like an achievement because she is not trusted by the Alliance at all. They still see her as a liability. She is my favorite Male romance, but being female may have something to do with it. :) And though I agree her story could have been written so much better, when you take her arc as a whole, and combine it with Cerberus being a turncoat... you can really find something great. Her story is about trust.
Just from a feminist perspective, the conversation you can have with Miranda about being Space Divas in 3 has some nice pay offs for a female/female friendship. Wish we could have seen more of that Miranda in 2.
I do like that conversation, but her stuff in the Citadel is so disconnected from her main story that it didn't seem worth diving into.
@@pikmonwolf Agreed. I just think it's a direction they could have leaned into more. Basically, I think Miranda's story has two prongs they could have aimed for doing both at the same time depending on who you were. There's the BroShep Romance options heating up the ice queen and there's the FemShep friendship between Space Divas, as this also would have required warming up, but you essentially have two career women who worked their ways up the ranks by being exceptional and find not many other people can relate to them.
The BroShep friendship route would be a bit bland (as he doesn't get Space Diva dialogue or romance dialogue), but I think her character could have shone if they'd added both those polishes to her and worked on it from the beginning.
Just that both are missed opportunities.
I love Miranda. I wish she was a squad mate in 3. Her being a former member of Cerberus would make her standout among the other squad mates. I can see her having conflict with Ashley/Kaiden while Tali, Garrus, and Liara would be warmer to her. She’s also an underrated romance, so I would’ve liked that to have been expanded more than it was in 3. And thinking about it, the Citadel DLC would’ve been even better if she was part of the Clone Arc.
Lastly, I disagree on Miranda being in the wrong in her argument with Jack. Yes, what happened to Jack was horrible, but Miranda had nothing to do with it. Jack went to her looking for a fight. If I don’t have enough renegade or paragon points, I always side with Miranda. I’ve never liked Jack. She’s much more unpleasant and unapproachable than Miranda at her worst. I would usually kill her off with Jacob in the Suicide Mission by not upgrading the armor.
Thanks for the video! Glad I got to see it.
That's fair that Jack started the fight, but there really was no justifying the "clearly you were a mistake" line.