The Redguard want to expel the elves, the Argonians want to expel the elves, hell even some elves want to expel other elves. Its only when Nords want to expel elves that certain people get upset. But theyre perfectly fine with the empire colonizing Skyrim.
Exactly! The Redguards pushed out the Thalmor by themselves yet the empire couldn't. Of course the empire says that they're the only hope against the Thalmor, that's what any empire would say when on the verge of collapse. If one independent country could push back the Thalmor, why couldn't a group of independent countries do the same?
I've maintained for the longest time that if the Empire truly wants to stop wasting resources and be as strong as possible for another war against the Dominion (which they are currently licking the ass of diplomatically), they'd use the opportunity to let Skyrim go. That way the Thalmor are driven out of Skyrim, since the Empire is no longer hosting their presence. In exchange for recognition of national sovereignty, the Empire could ask for peace and future military support. They could exchange the same deal to Hammerfell (and Black Marsh if not already recognized). Voila! Empire now has the manpower to fight another war, with willing allies instead of subdued occupied provinces with low morale.
Colonizing Skyrim? Do you know how many shipments of grain go through the Pale Pass into Skyrim? If the war had continued whole cities would have been lost to the Elves. Another war is coming and neither of us are ready for it, much less alone. This civil war is chiefly about the worship of Talos not any silliness about colonization or exploitation. Imperials also worship Talos, Tiber Septim, the banning hurts as just as much as it hurts you. But it was the one thing that the Thalmor would accept. They nearly sacked the Imperial City and captured the whole of Hammerfell's coastline. Hammerfell did eventually push the Elves out but at a great cost. Not to mention that Hammerfell was let go for strategic reasons which you have chosen to forget. Hammerfell becoming independent was purposeful to continue the fight with aid coming through with their long border with us. The Redguards could easily disappear into the desert and mountains and resupply through Imperial caravans.
The Nords don't want or need to expel the elves, they've already done that all the way back in the Merethic and First Eras. Ulfric's primary goal is the throne of Skyrim and, at least nominally, the restoration of Talos to the pantheon of the Divines, even if that means choosing the worst possible time in the 4E to do so (the looming threat of the 2nd Great War).
@@willl676 True, if Ulfric does win it doesn't actually mean an independent Skyrim. Ulfric is smart enough to know he can't beat a real legion, he would have the Empire recognize him as the legitimate High King under the Empire. Which of course would be breaking the Concordate as Talos/Tiber Septim worship would no longer be banned, which would lead to a 2nd Great War.
Diversifying? Ulfric is the one allowing Dunmer and Argonians into Eastmarch. The Reachmen are Bretons same as the Bretons that have always lived in the Reach and are only encouraged to assimilate into Imperial society in order to cease their raiding.
They did, they fought as long and as far as they could. They lost. It was either all die or negotiate, the empire chose to negotiate. Because you cant fight tomorrow if you die today.
@@AdmiralNesence negotiated someone else's rights and culture away, and not their own, though. It'd be like if the Roman Empire agreed to never mention Caesar again under penalty of death.
@@acrab6527 yes, because the death would have extended to skyrim as well, which is infact a province of the empire, thus subject to imperial law, which is beholden to the white gold accords. This is as if the british empire signed the hague convention and canada expected to not be beholden to it, rather than simply ignoring it as canada did. the nords being pissy about lorkan rather than acknowledge the the plan to not get reamed by the mer while humanity regains enough strength to fully recover from the oblivion crisis is their small mindedness not the failing of the empire to do what mist be done.
@@darken2417 While in-game they're Bretons, in universe the Reachmen are actually another race of man entirely and (I think) the only one that worships daedra in their culture. Also I should probably mention. Argonians are dock slaves in Windhelm and cannot legally enter the city. However you can own Argonian slaves, which ain't that an Elder Scrolls classic.
The dossier explicitly says they don’t want anyone to win the war, they want it to keep going because that drags both the Nords and Empire down. They don’t want Ulfric to win outright either because if you think about it Skyrim would be very hard to invade, you either cross thin mountain passes or go by the tundra icebergs in the sea. If Ulfric restores Skyrim to what it used to be pre-Empire they’d be more than a match for the Thalmor. The Traditional Kingdom of Skyrim was practically undefeated, and had one major defeat only after shitting on Chimer and Dwemer with the Thu’um for years in Morrowind.. no one has ever invaded Skyrim. It’s the perfect nation to defend and the Nords are too stubborn to lose ground.
The Thalmor finance the wars and hold shadow governance of the imperial land and Skyrim. They seek to subvert national identity and replace it with their own distorted rule. Look up the "Protocols of the Elder Scrolls of Aldmeri (Zion).
@@sercravenmohead3631 Sry to strongly disagree, but a united Empire was barley able to survive the Dominion attack. What do you think a single province can do, should the Dominion gain control over the majority of Tamriel? Especially since the pointless civil war wasted ressources of the strength of Skyrims population? And talks about the great past of the Nords are only deceiving about the fact that their glory days are long over. How many Thuum users are there in Skyrim now? The famous college of Winterhold is a mere shadow of itself, so how many well educated magic users are left there to fight against Thalmor mages supporting the assautling armies? Once the moutain passes are broken through, what bullwark will protect Skyrim from the scorching blade of the Thalmor? And once the Empire has fallen to the Thalmor, they would be free to engage in naval incursions into Skyrim, avoiding the mountains. The Thalmor are not afraid of the strength Skyrim would posses, but rather that the distraction of imperial forces would end, that they possibly enter an alliance and be again a somewhat united force. Ending the civil war in whatever manner bears the risk of stabilizing the situation for humanity, whilste continuation weakens them and plays into the hands of the Dominion.
@@anonymussicarius8899 The United Empire was grossly mismanaged which is why it suffered so greatly at the hands of the Thalmor, they let Cyrodiil get ransacked by Lord Naarafin and the Empire turned to Skyrim to bail them out, Hammerfel was naturally able to defend itself from the Dominion on it’s own after the White Gold Concordat was signed, and due to the fact that elves reproduce slower means Skyrim and by extension the Empire should be theoretically stronger than the dominion at this point. That means the WGC shouldn’t have been signed in the first place, leaving allies like Hammerfel to fend for themselves and banning the worship of Talos, that was a stipulation designed to divide the Empire and they took the bait. Lucky for Skyrim they don’t need the Empire, but it’s the other way around the Empire needs them. I don’t think the coalition of the Dominion is doing good too, they mistreat the Bosmer and Khajiit alike and their alliance is doomed to fail as well. Skyrim shouldn’t get strung along enduring the abuses of the Empire’s mistakes and has a right to govern themselves out of self determination. Magic isn’t particularly overpowered on the battlefield, if anything in the Thalmor’s case it helps them hold a line and mitigates their weakness in melee combat but the Nords would break through nonetheless, I don’t think magic is the end all be all of tamrielic warfare because the elves have been consistently defeated by men who aren’t particularly gifted in magic. Sure, magic is a great benefit but all races are capable of it too to lesser extents and one of the best mages to ever live was Shalidor who was a nord. In order to capitalize on the magic strength they also need to backing of Bosmer and Khajiit forces which is a strenuous alliance at best! Nords can reliably shatter lines by simply being better warriors that don’t have to rely on the finite magical abilities any given day. While it’s true you don’t see many “Thu’um users” we also don’t see the true extent of that and how it can be taught and learned. In the lore Kyne’s blessing was given to all men so that can be implied as a skill many could learn but it’s restricted by the pacifist Greybeards. Ulfric is considered to be pretty gifted with the Thu’um so who’s to say he couldn’t teach people? Also the scale of the Thu’um is tuned down a lot for gameplay purposes, in lore someone could shout city walls apart, the isle of Solstheim was created by Miraak shouting the continent apart, so Ulfric on the battlefield is likely to be a potent threat on his own. If he’s true to his word about a restoration of what Skyrim used to be then it’s plausible he can reform the practice of using Thu’um and end the Greybeards pointless pacifism which isn’t based on the gods punishing man but Jurgen Windcaller’s interpretation that we shouldn’t abuse Thu’um when in his time it was used all the time. What they preach is defeatism, if you were being scrutinized and punished by the gods they’d take your voice away. What happened at the battle of Red Mountain was the Chimer and Dwemer joining forces to defeat the nord invasion, the voice wasn’t being punished. You could accept their interpretations but it is not proven fact. Last point, READ the freaking dossier! The Thalmor doesn’t want a victor, “a stormcloak victory is to be avoided” so they know the implications of what a true independent Skyrim can look like and acknowledge that it’s not in their best interest that neither side wins! That’s the hang up that loyalists can’t wrap their heads around, Skyrim is extremely hard for them to invade either by land or sea, the problem you don’t see is you go “well high elves excel at magic” but that’s all they are good at, sure great mages but good soldiers? Can they scout difficult terrain like mountains without fatigue? I think the attrition would be terrible for them because they are an un athletic race that relies heavily on magic. Not quite as nuanced as the Nords fighting in their homeland. Why does Tulius fare well in the current civil war? He employs locals still loyal to the Empire who know the land and customs of Skyrim like Legate Rikke, they have a chance at winning the political battle by appealing to the population. The Thalmor on the other hand would try to wage a war of extermination with limited knowledge of Skyrim because face it their pompous and think they are above it all, a foreign enemy like that would be met with extreme resistance and the Nords would fight to the last man, woman, and child. It wouldn’t be the same war you see right now, that’s why I think your perspective is unrealistic of how war is actually interpreted and fought.
I grew up playing them, but neither have the time or inclination to anymore. But at least I get to discuss the things I'm nostalgic for with my friends.
Turnabout is fair play after all, but the nords aren't giving the Dunmer even a quarter of the shit the Dunmer flung at everybody else. For one the Nords aren't enslaving them.
Also to add on... The Dunmer are only abused by a select number of Nords. That isn’t the same as truly being oppressed. Dunmer are allowed to do just about anything a Nord can (with the exception of living in a different part of the city... though I think that is most likely due to cultural differences rather then Nords not wanting Dunmer to have nice houses) The fact is that Windhelm itself has created an entire section of their city to house people. Despite the bigotry and tension... they get to live their lives... lives that after the war would be substantially better and ultimately helped with. From what I’ve seen. Most of the anti Dunmer sentiment comes from them not supporting The Stormcloak anyways... which honestly does entail them to ridicule. You don’t get to live in my nation then simultaneously show support or feign fence sitting for the other side... That’s like if I lived in the US and showed empathy for Isis who cuts people’s heads off and shout death to Americans. Uh yeah go fake yourself too. Lol
@@terrencemoldern2756 Stop that! Reason and logic is racist and white supremacism! You must hate the faction of white men simply because they are white men! REEEEEE!
Technically, since you are Dragonborn, if you became Emperor it would be a reintroduction of the blood of Akatosh into the imperial royalty. Wouldn’t be the Septim bloodline, but arguably since you’re a cracked out super warrior it’s be even better. A shame Bethesda is gonna make the Dragonborn vanish from history to take tentacles up the bum for eternity, like when the Hero of Kvatch contracted solipsistic schizophrenia and became Sheogorath.
Unfortunately it would make it a nightmare to justify saying your player character canonically is of a certain race and gender, and also probably has a canonical name to carry on the next line of Emperors. Much easier to say your soul is the property of Herma Mora, replacing Miraak.
@@Jonas_æ He's a male nord, everyone knows the Dragonborn is a male nord, just like everyone knows that the Nerevarine is a Portuguese skooma addicted Argonian.
That was one of the things that annoyed me playing Skyrim. Complete the thieves' guild and you're supposed to be Nocturnal's forever. Complete the dragonborn dlc and you're supposed to be Hermaeus Mora. There's at least one other claimant to your soul too iirc, but not exactly sure who, I might be thinking of Hircine if you stay a werewolf. Either way, you've supposedly pledged your soul to at least 2 daedric princes, if not more. Good luck figuring out that shit when you die.
@@captainmurphy4948 well, there’s Nocturnal, Hircine if you stay werewolf, I think Molag Bal even if you cure vampirism but probably not, Sheogorath because he’d find it funny, I forget if Namira, AzurA and Mehrunes Dagon also get a slice. Of course, since you’re an aspect of Shor you can also just walk into Sovngarde, I think Akatosh also vouches for you since technically you’re one of his children. Basically, your afterlife will be several kalpas of ownership disputes.
The empire was doomed back from the events of oblivion with the death of the empirical lineage and the destruction of the dragonsblood amulet. This lost them the protection of akatosh. The role of the empire at this point at best is to try and drag the thalmor down with them. Talos isn't the God of the empire, but the God of man, which is why the thalmor want his worship to be removed, because the concept of mankind, and the races of man themselves will be weakened without him. Edit: Akatosh is the founding patron god of the empire, and is depicted as a dragon, hence the dragonsblood amulet.
The Septims weren't even directly connected through lineage with Tiber Septim. Almost immediately the Septim family went insane and the Uriel Septim the VII you see in Oblivion is only connected by extended family to him through a marriage somewhere. the dragon blood is something Akatosh himself grants. Also the Arcturian heresy is probably correct and Talos isn't really a god like the rest of the Aedra, he's not an earthbone of creation and is most likely another facet of Lorkhan.
@@ReformedSauron It's very likely that's what happened with Tiber Septim back in Daggerfall. Though the concept of mantling seems to be a thing that happens very rarely in universe. I think it also happens with the Nerevarine.
@TreeStumpProdutions Talos is the mantler of the role of lorkhan, who is the god of man. (For those that don't know, there are 6 different recognized ways, known as the Walking Ways to achieve at least some form of divinity. It works supposedly as "walking like them until they walk like you". One of the Walking Ways is called mantling. Mantling is where you take over the role of a god by having your life, or in the case of Talos, the three different characters of Hjalti, Wulfharth, and Zurin Arctus match up with important thematic elements of the god you are taking the role of basically.) They have overlap with the theme of removal of hearts and some other themes which I cant remember right now. Additionally talos is missing from their own pantheon, furthering the mantling of the role of the missing god lorkhan. Shor is the Nordic facet of depicting lorkhan.
I would like to point out that while the "Empire" lost the Great War via surrender, it was only because they valued Cyrodil (which was uniquely weak against naval invasions) over the rest of the Provinces. Had the War continued, Cyrodil would have gotten wrecked, but the thalmor would yave been defeated.
This was quickly proven when Hammerfell refused to accept being handed over as part of the treaty and started fighting as an independent nation, and managed to drive the Dominion out and work out their own peace treaty. It's quite insane seeing as they have a massive coastal boarder facing the Summerset Isles.
@@Jonas_æ Both Hammerfell and Cyrodiil were devastated by the Great War. Even counting the Redguard's victory, that only came after the Empire had already defeated a great number of the Aldmeri forces in Cyrodiil and Hammerfell.
I'd love to see a The Politics of Morrowind video, as Morrowind is significantly more complex in terms of politics, theology and ideology more than any other game in the series.
But what about Daggerfall? The Iliac Bay is full of squabbling kingdoms, the Orc king trying to make his nation into a respected one, the Empire willing to reinforce its control of the region, the Totem of Tiber Septim and the Numidium...
Hammerfell became independent after the Empire failed them. Unlike Skyrim, they do not have the natural defenses of impenetrable mountain ranges on all sides yet they held the Aldmeri Dominion off by themselves as a coastal nation. As you learn from "My time in need", the will to face the Dominion still holds strong in Hammerfell (yes, the Alik'r warriors are the ones telling the truth in that quest). The Emperor is canonically murdered by the Dark Brotherhood. We know of no heir to the throne of the Mede dynasty (which is its own lineage and hold no relation to the previous Septim dynasty of Talos which the Nords actually swore allegiance to in the first place). Should the Empire quell the rebellion in Skyrim half the nation is still sympathetic to the cause. The Empire cannot expect to simply go back to the good diplomatic relations of the past, and must be ready to continue to spend resources to repress civilian uprisings after making martyrs of their heroes and kin. My opinion on the war is that if the Empire truly wants to build strength to face the Dominion in the inevitable next Great War, they should not force Skyrim back into their ranks by creating martyrs and allowing their common enemy diplomatic power to persecute the native population within their territory. Instead I propose a third option: The Empire should propose a deal to Ulfric saying the Empire will recognize Skyrim as an independent, sovereign nation in exchange for peace, and most importantly; a military alliance. Offer the same recognition in exchange for allied military support to Hammerfell. In this scenario, Cyrodiil and Skyrim will both stop wasting resources on the conflict. The Thalmor will be driven out of Skyrim, without the Empire breaking its diplomatic obligations to them. The Empire regains its former strength with both Hammerfell and Skyrim back in its ranks, but without the negative side effects of subduing former provinces by force. No wasted resources, no loss of morale (in the former provinces (the natives of Cyrodiil can cry over lost territory in foreign lands later)).
Yeah, Hammerfell held out on its own. It isn't like we're told that the core of their fighting force are former legionairies that were discharged as 'invalids'. Oh wait...
@@richardradejr.4258 you mean the hammerfell citizens who joined the imperial legion in hammerfell, then left to go back to fight for their homeland? That's not the imperials saving hammerfell, that's the imperials collapsing due to incompetence.
problem is the imperials are out of dudes form the last war. Hammerfell is out of dudes from the last war. Skyrim lost nobody. The imperials want to draft half of skyrim to die in the next war. That's the only reason they won't let them go. They need slaves.
@@acrab6527 Where in the lore does it say that? Because veteran legionaires being left behind to help form Hammerfell's defenders is objectively true. They weren't simply Hammerfell recruits.
the Empire has been falling apart ever since Martin Septim died, all the Mede Empire did was hasten the Empire's demise. There is the phrase "empires rise and fall" for a reason Elisif=a widow whose advisers are the ones who make all of her decisions instead of her Ulfric=a seasoned warrior in a land of warriors. pretty clear who the better leader of Skyrim is.....plus the Empire tried executing the Dragonborn for no reason. First impressions are important ya know. the moment Tullius heard the captain bitch say "forget the list! he/she goes to the block" he shoulda gone "hold up soldier, what do you think you're doing? this person is free to go" but no, he was too busy talking to Ulfric to the point he almost let an innocent man/woman b executed. Tullius is old but I doubt he's THAT old to the point he cannot hear someone next to him try attempted murder. Imagine how screwed Tamriel would be if Alduin didnt show up in time and only arrived after the corrupt Empire executed an innocent man/woman. Lets b honest, even if Torygg did ask the Empire for Skyrim to become independent they wouldve said no as they're desperately holding onto whatever territories they own. Thanks to Titus Mede the Incompetent the Empire has been losing more and more provinces in a short amount of time. Hammerfell pulled outta the Empire and went "if you're too cowardly and cucked to fight the Thalmor we'll do it our own damn selves!" and sure enough they kicked the Thalmor's asses outta Hammerfell and then there is the teeny tiny fact that the so-called battle that Titus led against the Dominon it wasn't even him, it was the Forgotten Hero. So not only is he an incompetent ruler but he's an incompetent ruler who takes credit for something he DIDNT do.
12:50 "without its emperor who is going to fill the void there??" For those who deep dive into the lore, there is a very strong case that the person who approached the Dark Brotherhood to order the hit and assassination of the emperor was....... the emperor himself. There is some deep prophecy that the person who'd reunite humanity to fight the High Elves is the person who wins the succession war (with the war being the making of the future emperor)
@@akatsukicloak It's a common theory. But supported more on "it could tecnically be true" and the accepting response of the emperor when you go to kill him than actual facts pointing into it being the case.
So Ulfric Stormcloak the true high king will become Emperor? Awesome. Edit: That is unless ofc Betheshitsda has consumed even more soy milk and will redo the whole goddamn lore as they did in Fallout 4 in order to please the woke neckbeard population.
@@KopperNeomani did a one man kristalnacht in The Grey Quarter a few weeks ago... It was way funnier than it probably should have been, but unfortunately the Stormcloak city guards didn't appreciate my devotion to the cause.
@@ianmedford4855Because that's like cutting down Texans for moving to Florida due to half of Texas becoming volcanic wasteland. Morrowind and Skyrim are both in the same country, and deep down even the Stormcloaks know it.
Really, the only thing that matters is which side the Dragonborn joins. Since the Dragonborn is more or less a one man natural disaster it’s only natural that whichever side wins the civil war could go on to destroy the thalmor with the help of the Dragonborn.
@@michielwitteveen6676 it's one of the possible outcomes, yes. The games always leave it vague, so whether the main character has done or not something, things just happen anyways. Then they dissapear and nothing is known about them anymore
Easy to enjoy things when you're out getting high off your tail, slurping a shot of skooma off a lizard's back and adding to the degeneration of The Empire! Get OUT!
Something important to consider with Josh's argument about uniting the armies of Men to face the Thalmor is that it is almost certain that an independent Skyrim would make a pragmatic alliance with the Empire against the Thalmor, just because the realpolitik calculus of this decision makes this practically a necessity for both Skyrim and the Empire. Also, just on Rory's Forsworn business, he's right that they predate the Nords in Skyrim, being original Nedic inhabitants of the Reach, while the Nords descend from Atmorans, who, as the name would imply, migrated to Skyrim from Atmora.
Reachmen are Bretons. Bretons are the descendants of the Direnni and the Nedes. So, Nords are the first human inhabitants of Skyrim. Also, it were the Nords who defeated the Falmer of Skyrim and then aided Alessia against the Ayleids which brought an end to Ayleid rule over the Nedes. So without the Nords, there wouldn't have been any free Reachmen.
@@zekun4741 While it is true that the Ayleid Empire had enslaved the Cyrodiilic Nedes, the Reach was never conquered by the Ayleids, nor was it dominated by the Falmer or Dwemer to the extent that the Reachmen were generally enslaved, so the Reachmen were not freed by the Nords. The Druadach Mountains were a homeland for free Reachmen, even as far back as the Merethic Era. Rather, when the Nords entered Skyrim, the Reachmen were already free, and were subjgated by Olaf One-Eye sometime in the 5th Century of the 1st Era, as is evidenced in the plaques around the Palace of Kings. Side Note: Reachmen being modelled as Bretons in Skyrim is more of an engine limitation than anything else and wasn't actually meant to imply Direnni ancestry of the Reachmen, who lived far outside the Direnni Hegemony anyway. The Bretons proper were descendents of the Direnni and the Galen specifically, who were only one Nedic people.
Doesn't matter if they were there first. All that matters is if they can hold it, which they can't. I'm sure they'll get to open some casinos in the future once they stop practicing human sacrifices.
Depends which part of the Reach we're talking about since it's partially part of Skyrim and partially High Rock. Generally the Reachmen's claims are weak and the areas were settled by Nords and "Reachment" around the same time, and the elves killed off many Nord settlers in the Reach.@@jimslickens2325
The Nords should have no trouble beating the Aldmeri Dominion on their own, just secure a large supply of Fortify Restoration potions and make everyone into gods
Even from a lore perspective, there's nothing to say that an independent Skyrim couldn't form some sort of mutual defense pact with other sovereign-minded nations. Hammerfell, Black Marsh, and even Morrowind come to mind -- Hell, just imagine if Ulfric reformed the Ebonheart Pact with the An-Xileel and a rejuvenated House Redoran? No force on Tamriel could stop them
because Hammerfell was no longer a part of the Empire the Redguards actually bent the Thalmor over and did WAY better against the Dominion than the Empire ever did. If anything at this point the Empire are a crutch.
@@chesterstevens8870 There's plenty to indicate otherwise actually, the Dunmer and the Altmer don't like eachother but there's always been beef with the Nords since the days of the war of the first council and they wouldn't want to get dragged into the wars of men, same with the Argonians who are by the 4th era staunchly isolationist and anti elf AND humans alike, and Hammerfell is friendlier to the Empire than they ever were to the Nords, being religiously more Anuic than Padomaic despite being humans.
@@gabrielinostroza4989 Hammefell and the Redguards still have a stronger sense of community with the men of Skyrim then they do oppressive Elves, so a shared enemy might be enough to convince them to work with the Nords. Doubly so when the Redguards recently booted their foreign invaders from their lands. As for Blackmarsh, I think they're only issue with the Empire was that despite officially making slavery illegal, it couldn't really enforce that in Morrowind, which is where most of the Argonian slaves ended up going. The Dunmer though are so thoroughly screwed that they might just be up to side with anyone who will help them with their mini apocalypse that just keeps getting worse.
Even for all of the debate going on nobody stops to mention how the empire as it sits now not only has no legitimate Emperor (given the lineage of Tiber Septim has been dead for 200 years) but also has the audacity to allow Thalmor agents to operate a secret police within their borders that kidnaps and tortures its citizens without charge or warning. Even if the Empire would be able to defeat the elves (which is doubtful, the only shot they have is the Dragonborn which the Stormcloaks could also have) they’ve proven themselves to be unable or unwilling to protect their own citizens. Not to mention there are several things stopping the Elves from invading Skyrim in the absence of the Empire. Primary the large mountain ranges, the easily made alliances with the human nations of High Rock, Hammerfell, and Atmora, oh and the 5 ton flying fire lizards that have been destroying the land for the entire plot of the game.
The Elves don't need to invade skyrim. They're after the Adamant tower, so they can unmake the first convocation. It doesn't matter if they can invade some mountain range in the middle of nowhere when they're planning on dropping a 9th level "nuh uh" on reality.
"oh and the 5 ton flying fire lizards that have been destroying the land for the entire plot of the game." The same one's that by the end of the game are most likely on the path to the way of Paarthunax. And if not are at the very least no longer a chaotic threat because they're terrified after the Dragonborn LITEREALLY ATE the soul of their god.
It's not the first time the Empire lost a dynasty. Hell the Empire didn't even start with the Septim dynasty. Mountain ranges don't mean anything to Aldmeri mages, they can just levitate over them. Atmora? The nation that has been taken over and destroyed by the Tsaeci thousands of years ago ? If anything is coming out of that continent it's an army ready to conquer everyone. The dragons aren't allied to the Nords, they are a bigger liability to them than the elves. And sure an alliance of 3 countries (one of them just out of a civil war and another one still badly bloodied from their conflict against the Thalmor) is somehow going to achieve what 4 countries couldn't. Not only that, but Redguards, Bretons and Nords help each other because of the Empire. It's what keeps them allied in the first place. The Empire isn't some weak entity, it's only thanks to the Empire defending Hammerfell that the Redguards weren't taken over by the Aldmeri. It's also thanks from help coming from the Empire that Redguards reclaimed the land they'd lost to the Aldmer. It's also thanks to the Empire that Skyrim wasn't taken over. Thinking that Skyrim would do just fine on its own is just crazy talk.
Contra on Ulfrics motives. He didn't say he should be high king, he just said Torrig shouldn't. He even refuses to take the crown when you finish the Stormcloaks questline, because he shall only rule if the people want him. He also never recruited any soldier, the people came to him on their own will.
Well.. he does say that he will take the title as soon as the Moot is held and the Jarls agree, which he acknowledges to Galmar is a foregone conclusion. I am a Stormcloak supporter, but those remarks are just diplomatic niceties, as he already know they have no choice but to crown him at that point.
My reason for joining the Stormcloaks was always much simpler and more personal: The Empire was gonna have me executed just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. No way in hell I was gonna support them after that. A cautionary tale about how tyrants create their own worst enemies.
@nrrork, I couldn’t agree more with your position. The tyrannical nature of the Empire from the beginning, has the dragonborn slated for the block, simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. To hell with the empire.
I always helped Hadvar during the escape just because he seemed like a decent, honourable and well-liked dude. He also offered to take my body back home to my people whatever race I picked so I could be buried (if you're an Argonian this is a huge deal), and even stood in front of the chopping block when a dragon was spewing flaming bullshit all over the place. But that was only Hadvar. The rest of the Empire were another matter.
- Bilbo Baggins would never support Empire for multitude of reasons, but most important being that he valued autonomy and sovereignty. Shire itself was part of a larger polity, (Arnor), but self-governed and fought for its independence when humans tried to take it over. And later Aragorn granted them independence. Bilbo would always stand for the smaller people´s right to self-govern their own matters.
I like that people can have a reasonable disagreement on who is in the right in this conflict. The storm cloaks are the correct side, but I quite like how even handed the conflict is.
Yes, it's refreshing how it's not just insults as usual in this debate, probably because they actually know and respect each other. It would have been much better with Carl or Beau there to make comparisons with real history examples of medieval and ancient rebellions and civil wars though.
No they aren't. The whole Civil War is about Talos. The Imperials also worship Talos. Everyone knows that another war is coming with the Aldmeri Dominion, the only ones that don't are the Nords. The average Nord believes that there haven't been dragons for thousands of years and know nothing of the numerous Imperial vassal dragons as recent as fifty years ago. Not to mention the Stormcloaks have only been fighting peasant Nord imperial militias. Across the Pale Pass there is a real legion preparing to cross if this militia can't handle this small problem. (A note in game) A real Imperial legion has full fledged Battlemages, Dragonriders, and real soldiers. The Stormcloaks will get absolutely obliterated if the war continues. But of course this is unlikely as even if Ulfric deposes Elisif the more likely resolution is that the Empire washes its hands of the situation and simply recognizes Ulfric as the High King of Skyrim and he knowing he can't win a prolonged war will submit to Imperial authority. This peace would undoubtably lead to another Elven invasion as we have broken the Concordate and we'd both be completely unready for it.
Kill the Thalmor Kill the Forsworn Kill the Vampires Kill the Dark Brotherhood And especially goddamn the Falmer. And while we're at it, the Guado from Final Fantasy X.
I was with ya till vampires and dark brotherhood. Vampires probably have a better idea going on for Skyrim and well the DB they fucking suplex the emperor into oblivion like chads
Talos was also in Morrowind. You meet him at Ghost Gate just before your final confrontation with Dagoth Ur. Question for the Imperial side: would you want Britain to stay in the EU so that it could better resist Russia?
It's more like saying: if China controls the American west coast, shouldn't Florida secede so Americans can fight them on two fronts when the time comes? 🤦♂️
If the EU was currently at war with Russia, Britain was trying to leave through violent rebellion, and Russia's stated goal was the complete genocide of all western Europe, then yes.
It was this exact channel that convinced me that the Stormcloaks are right. After learning about philosophy and politics from you guys I applied that to the conflict of Skyrim and decided that the Empire didn’t even have the strength of will to defeat the Thalmor let alone the strength of arms.
My thoughts exactly. How does the damned Lotus Eaters not realize that a remote, unaccountable, culturally different government that lets the intelligence and religious agents of another state come and imprison, torture and kill people en masse with impunity is an intolerable poison to any people with any bit of self respect or survival values.
The Stormcloaks are morally right. The land does belong to the native people inhabiting it. Skyrim DOES belong to the Nords. If the Empire force upon them diplomatic deals that allow foreigners to religiously persecute them, they have a moral obligation to rebel. Moreover, as a point of diplomatic and strategic maneuvering: The Empire SHOULD allow the Stormcloaks to win. This because it means both sides (who both wants to fight a common enemy) stop wasting their resources and can start preparing for the second Great War. Offer Skyrim a deal of recognized national sovereignty in exchange for peace and military alliance, and you get their armies on your side WILLINGLY.
They have neither the strength, nor the willingness. Imperials are comfortable letting Thalmor agents hunt down Nords in Skyrim because it doesn't affect them, when opposing their terms might have. It's corrupt, decadent people throwing the people they see as beneath to the wolves in order to maintain their lifestyles and positions.
@@Jonas_æ the stormcloaks were an thalmor false flag operation. the empire would already be gearing up for the next war if the stormcloak had kept talos worship on the down-low. instead the thalmor pit both sides against each other in order to keep the empire from rebuilding.
@@skeemnave4882not really, the Thalmor are only interested in the war continuing and not in either side winning so in the end siding with either side of the civil war is contrary Thalmor interests Plus we don’t really know if he’s currently working with them since you’d think it would me mentioned in is file that he started the war to advance Thalmor interests
I thought the argonian invasion proved hippity hoppity morrowind is argonian. Also argonians invaded oblivion, they might legit be the most powerful nation in elder scrolls currently.
I remember in the old games the nords always ran aroun in fur loincloths looking like Conan. Sad to see how pozzed they are from centuries of imperial rule by the time of Skyrim.
When Emperor Titus Mede II signed the White Gold Concordat he signed away the Empire's autonomy. The Thalmor now have agents and advisors at every level of the Empire's Government and Bureaucracy keeping tabs and calling the shots on everything, nothing can be done within the empire's operation without the Thalmor giving the green light for it. By signing the Concordat, the Empire "surrendered" in all but name, capitulated to every demand the Thalmor asked, and is now little more than a vassal to the Dominion. All this talk of the Empire one day "striking back" is cope when you realize the Thalmor have the highest levels of the Imperial legionary brass in their back pocket. It's literally over for the Empire, it is fully compromised by the Dominion, a puppet state. At this point in the lore the Empire is actually now more of a liability not just to the races of Man, but to Tamriel as a whole, then some unifying banner to rally under.
False. There's only justiciars in Skyrim; the rest of the Empire is doing just fine without Thalmor checking on them. Hell, there's the massive Imperial army south of Cyrodiil just waiting for round 2 of the Great War. Also, the Empire and the Thalmor are guaranteed to go to war against each other again. The Thalmor openly tell you, Tullius openly tells you, he even says that the Skyrim civil war is just dress rehearsal for round 2 of the Great War which is due any day now.
It makes sense you believe the conspiracy theory that the je-I mean, the elves secretly control the empire, because other wise there is no good reason to back the stormcloaks
Much of what you said is probably wrong. Literally the highest ranking Imperial in Skyrim tells you they are maneuvering to have a chance to defeat the Thalmor. The Empire is insanely luckily to have survived the first war and are trying to make the best circumstances to survive the next. It's blatantly obvious. Losing Skyrim means everyone is SOL.
Well, Bethesda wasn't very nuanced in their writing. For example, when you first enter the Palace of Kings in Windhelm, you hear Ulfric talking to his general, Galmar. "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, whose names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must." Meanwhile, when you enter Castle Dour in Solitude, you hear Tulius telling his Legate to lie and manipulate Balgruuf so that he'll side with the Empire against Ulfric, and that's not to mention the torture chambers under it, where Stormcloak prisoners are being tortured, while Thalmor hang around and say cutesy things like "Filthy Nords. Soon, your entire race will be eradicated." And of course, we can't forget how they're more than willing to execute a Jarl, effectively a petty King, in his own country, without a trial, as well as the Dragonborn, who was just looking to cross the border. There's no moral argument to be made in favor of the Empire. They're the bad guys in that dynamic. There's a pragmatic argument to be made for them, that they could be using these resources to fight the Thalmor, but there's nothing to suggest that would happen with certainty. It's a convenient slogan for them to say, "This is why you need us. We're protecting you. You'll die without us", but their own actions would contradict that. Good video, by the way. It's a nice distraction from current, gloomy events and subjects.
My intuitive desire to join The Stormcloaks always came from the awful big-government/ centralized power/"it's for your own safety"/ "the end justifies the means" vibe the Empire gave me. Then, the further I went into the lore, the more I confirmed my decision . I feel it shares a lot of points with your take 🍻
There is something to be said about writing them like this. Simply put, anyone in public who doesn't want to be labeled a r****st will automatically side with the empire (a frighteningly real problem that has developed). Skyrim basically fed the player with more than enough info to realize the Thalmor are the real problem and that the Empire is in decline no matter the outcome of the war. You literally assassinate the Emporer and nobody important gives a darn. I do love the Empire, but I love it the same way I love Rome. The Empire of Rome fell long before Rome fell, and by that point it was nowhere near what it used to be.
I respectfully disagree. Ulfric has some decent motives, but his strategy, politics, and overall practicality of his approach is flawed. Ironically Tullius and Ulfric are fighting the same enemy, but Ulfric isn't patient enough. Both hate the Thalmor, but Tullius is biding his time and building up his forces to kick the thalmor out for good. The best way to beat the Thalmor is if Skyrim and the empire work together to expel them, when they were ready. Ulfric starting a civil war only helps the Thalmor regardless who wins.
@@xertristhe problem is that the empire had enough time to recover and even mass a new powerful army but they are already too penetrated by the thalmor, rotten to the core.
Of all the arguments against stormcloaks I can’t believe how many people still misread the thalmor dossier on ulfric and think he’s a sleeper agent or double agent. Hammerfell is free as skyrim should
People really think they have a "gotcha" with that. It simply reads that they see him as useful while the conflict is ongoing. Somehow they miss the part where they absolutely want to avoid him winning.
As a 11 year old in 2011 I believed the Stormcloaks were correct. I got a little older and played the game again but with the Empire and thought they were right. Now I’m 23, I was correct the first time. The Stormcloaks were right all along. Except the fact they didn’t raid the Thalmor Embassy. The Stormcloaks were right in the terms of taking back Skyrim, which is small scale compared to the goals of the Empire but on a large scale the Empire shouldn’t have lost, they are the last force of man holding Elves back.
Actually the Redguard are the only humans (why TES 6 is partly or wholly set in their lands) that are holding back the Thalmor. The Empire is also under a Thalmor treaty of 'peace',basically a puppet state. 🤔
@@paulchurchill5045And the Redguards would have been crushed without the Empire. They just barely managed to repel a battered Thalmor with Imperial assistance. They would stand no chance against a battle-ready Thalmor alone.
@@paulchurchill5045Where is TES6 set again, Highrock? If what you said is true that means we will learn about the lore outcome of the Civil War in books in TES6.
@@paulchurchill5045 Redguards just got lucky with Thalmor exhausting themselves with Empire. Also "Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174" It is also known that empire is preparing for second great war as are thalmor. If empire had rolled over what would be the point?
4:27 You forget or don't know but Skyrim isn't the only loss of the Meade Empire's blatant loss to the Aldmeri Dominion, Hammerfell was forfeited by the Empire so the Redguard waged a defensive war against the weakened Dominion and managed to repel them without an Empire army.
Incorrect. The defenders were heavily reinforced by legionaries deemed "invalid" for further action by high command, and Hammerfell only got released fro mimperial control, since otherwise they Titus Mede II. would have had to accept the Thalmor demands for Hammerfell. By releasing Hamemrfell from the empire, he allowed them to continue fighting when the rest of the Empire had been to weakend to continue.
I have thousands of hours in Skyrim, and no matter how evil my character roleplay got, I could never bring myself to side with the Empire. A discussion like this about Legend of the Galactic Heroes (1988) would be cool.
I would give many things to see Carl and everyone else at LH cover Legend of The Galactic Heroes. But I hold no hope for it, as it bears a singular mark of shame: Anime
Funny, I could never bring myself to support the stormcloaks. Not just an aesthetic choice either but a principled one. The Empire is simply stronger, canonically Ulfric is a tool of the Thalmor and funded by them as well. If you had played the Imperial quest line you would have found out that the empire is planning an all out attack against the thalmor but ulfrics rebellion is not undermining that. The thalmor know this.
@@pwh1981The 10 light novels have been translated into English tbf. Their vocab is limited and there are quite a few mistakes in the last few (I'm assuming the translators were on a deadline), but they're still pretty good
- Windhelm still houses almost all of the dark elf refugees from the eruption of the redmountain, despite being branded the "racist" faction - Tullius is openly racist against nords - Stormcloaks will accept you into their ranks even if you're a high elf - An independent Skyrim would still be on the side of the Empire in a potential future war with the dominion, so the "Skyrim can't win alone" etc arguments fall flat in the water - The idea that "empire keeps the dominion out of skyrim" is silly, when you see in every part of the game that the Thalmor can do quite literally whatever they want within the borders, and the empire turns a complete blind eye to their actions (College of Winterhold questline is one example.) - If Skyrim were to be independent, it wouldn't have to abide by the White-Gold Concordat, and the people would freely worship Talos, while still keeping a mutual relationship with the empire tldr: the empire really just wants consolidate all the power it can within itself, because that's what empires do
tbh the biggest issue is that instead of being cringe, the Stormcloaks should be seeking to ally with Morrowind as fellow Padomaics against the Anuic Thalmor menace.
Are you sure? When half of the population of Skyrim is against the stormcloaks? After Ulfrix takes over he will immediately replace all jails who disagree with him and have his puppets obey him. You also think the empire will just give up on Skyrim that easily? The empire you see in game isn't even a proper legion according to the notes found in game. Yet they are already struggling so much.
Another thing people just ignore is that Skyrim doesn't need to invade the Aldmeri Dominion they literally just need to defend Skyrim. Which it's location makes stupidly easy the Elves either have to sail around the entire continent via a notoriously dangerous ocean and conduct a Sealanding, or they have to March through Black Marsh (which good luck lol) or the Empire which I don't think the Empire is going to allow an entire High Elf army to walk through their nation. Even if they managed such a feat they would have to fight an army of seasoned gorrila fighters in a freezing cold land where their are thousands of caves for Stormcloaks to ambush them out of. It would be their Afghanistan
Long live Ulfric Stormcloack, the true High King of Skyrim. Ulfric is blessed by our beloved god Talos and he'll lead us in glorious battle against the Elves and their minnions. Skyrim belongs to the Nords, we need no mongrel dogs of the Empire, no degenarate Cyrodil. Redguards were able to beat the Elves alone, so can we. We'll do with the Thalmor what Ysgramor did with the Snow Elves (and he did nothing wrong).
If Ralof isn't an avatar of Akatosh leading you on the righteous path, how did I train sneak, one and two handed up to 100 in the tutorial area with him?
There's a great deal of cosmological weight involved, actually. As Tiber Septim's spirit himself speaks to the Nerevarine and admits the empire is dying.
@@dianabarnett6886 given that other regions were able to emerge victorious after fighting only a little longer, I find it hilarious that the Empire caved and had one of their chief deities banned in the subsequent treaty.
@@DPRK_Best_Korea Because it wasn’t as simple as ‘other regions won’. The red guards where only able to push the Thalmor back after the empire pulled a bamboozl them by ‘pulling their legions away’ and ceding the territory to the Thalmor only for the legions to discharge a shit tone of “medically unfit” men who then turned around and keep fighting the Thalmor who were now under strength from diverting troops to Cyrodill and caught off guard. Also I think you stormcloak supporting types don’t really know how fucked the imperial city got. What the Thalmor did was akin to the rape of Nanking and you are like ‘herp deep why did they want peace lol’. And even then the peace treaty couldn’t even be enforced since the elves lost so many men. They couldn’t actually make the empire carry out the orders and empire is canonically helping the redguards in a covert manner against the Thalmor and Talos worship was still going on undeterred. The whole reason they Thalmor are funding Ulfic and keeping the civil war going is so they can drain the Empire of its military strength before the next war. It’s why Tulis has to make do with local recruits since the Empire knows if they divert troops out of Cyrodil the Thalmor could launch a surprise attack which they won’t be able to beat back it their army is fighting in Skyrim. Long story short the reason the civil war is happening is because the Nords didn’t have to deal with an invasion in their own country and see their family’s and children getting kill by genocidal fanatics and because their leadership is to dumb and arrogant to understand long term ‘diplomacy’ or the long conning your enemy and the concept of a Cold War. Their prideful arrogance and solutions being to fight to the death no matter the cost works for them but not everyone else in the empire.
@@DPRK_Best_Korea Titus Mede had the Dominion by the balls and then threw the fight at the end. Irritates me to no end when Empire supporters claim it is the only thing holding the Dominion back when it has already failed at that.
1. Current emperor line is not dragonborn 2. Hammerfell managed to fight off the Thalmor without the Empire 3. Paying attention to how the Jarl's of each side are characterized reveals the Empire to be the favoured side of bethesda, the beginning of the game is a rare exception for the sake of attempted balance I presume
1.) True 2.) Incorrect. Even if you discount all the initial fighting, the core of the resistance force is made up of former legionairies that were discharged due to being judged 'invalids'. 3.) Had thought about it before, but you might be right. I know I'm much less likely to side with Ulfric if it means I must dispose Jarl Balgruuf.
Why? The Forsworn are nothing more than bloodthirsty, barbarian savages who worship Daedra and commit child sacrifice. They have no say in the management of Skyrim or it's future, and rightly so. Skyrim (including the Reach) is for the Nords!
My first play through was as an Argonian with a hatred for High Elves being my sole motive for joining the Stormcloaks. It was that stonetoss tugging meme, Skyrim edition.
Stormcloaks: "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" Imperials: "Skyrim belongs to the empire!" Thalmore: "Skyrim belongs to the dominion!" Orcs: "I just wanna kill things and praise Malacath."
One of the stupid things about Skyrim is that It’s set 200 years after oblivion and for some reason they decided that the eruption of red mauntain in morrowind happened 5 years after oblivion. This is wierd because the because when looking at the dark elf ghetto in windhelm it does not seem like they’ve been there for 200 years. There has been no integration and they’re still acting like refugees. By the nine why hasn’t Ulfric or some other jarl of the city sent them back yet. Seriously the governing elite in Windhelm seem about as effective as the tories
*Mehrunes Dagon is red* *Hammerfell likes curved swords* *It has been said* *That Skyrim belongs to the nords* Ulfric and the Stormcloaks did nothing wrong
If he knew he would win why did he have to use the voice? What Ulfic did was the equivalent of challenging someone to a boxing match then showing up with a shotgun and blasting them. The fact he used the voice either mean he never intended to be a fair fight and used it as a means to get close to the king to kill him or Ulfic was outmatch and the High King was a better fighter then people assumed.
could be information from bad sources? it has been awhile since i have played the game but i always interpreted the "scene" or story to be a mega flex on everyone that Ulfric is traditionalist that learned a bit of the old religion or whatever. It also brings to mind the duel at the end of the 1984 Dune movie where the main character wins a duel vs Sting then uses his magic voice power to shout a big stone under his body in half. To prove at anytime during the duel he could have just killed him with his voice but chose not to. if skyrim's lore was written by someone on drugs like morrowind i would like it to be this way. @@Gdsryrox
Nah useing the voice in the duel was right and proper. It was shameful of Torryg to have not learned how. Every Nord has the right to study. Much less one who claimed to be high king.
Something that bothers me about the Skyrim we got officially got was the Talos worship being banned. The worship of Lorhkan and all off shoots of him should be the main focus. The banning of Talos would only effect Imperials while Nords would be pissed about the banning of Shor. Not only that, there should've only been 60 years between Oblivion and Skyrim, not 200.
I am so SICK of the notion that the empire is "standing between Skyrim and the Thalmor". The empire enforces the will of the Thalmor, against its own people! They built a damn embassy for them in hjallmarch. The so-called empire is nothing but the Thalmor's gestapo at this point. We Nords would rather die fighting than live without MIGHTY TALOS. SKYRIM belongs to the NORDS. 🐻❄
They only stopped public worship. They never enforced anything else. But ulfric publicly worshipped and rebelled which gave the thalmor grounds to take matters into their own hands. The empire had no choice because they were still weakened and couldn't afford another war. If the rebellion wouldn't drain the empire they may be able to beat the thalmor faster. Also don't forget that ulfric is a puppet of them. They try to keep him alive so the empire wastes resources. And even if skyrim is independent. What's next. The empire will lose to the thalmor and skyrim stands no chance alone. Your short term gains will be your long term failure
The only reason the Empire is letting the Thalmor is in due to Ulfic. Before then the Gold White Concordant wasn’t enforced at all by the empire since the Thalmor didn’t have the means to after the Great War. They are only present in Skyrim as they are using the Civil war as an excuse and the empire can’t say no due to building up their own forces to fight the Thalmor in the inevitable next conflict and the civil war taking up their attention. People like to say the ‘empire surrendered all in name’ but it’s actually the opposite. They surrendered only in name as since the Elves where beaten back they couldn’t actually enforce the restrictions of the peace treaty and the Empire still allowed Talos worship and has been helping out Hammer-fell fight back the Thalmor.
The empire protected Skyrim at great cost. The imperial city of Cyrodiil was even briefly taken by the Altmer, yet the empire fought on and survived. If we look at the leadership in Skyrim who is better. The imperial general who managed to capture his enemy in a few months with a legion of farm boys or the rebel traitor that got so easily ambushed? That’s not even mentioning the corrupt jarls.
Skyrim being independent is like the United States bring independent in a timeline where France has already defeated Britain and forced concessions in the Napoleonic Wars. You won't be independent, you'll be French.
Until that damn emperor betrayed the empire and signed that disgraceful white gold concordat. The ending of war was retaking of capital, the annihilation of the main army of elves in cyrodil, and the destruction of the magic artifact that let them outmaneuver the imperial forces and kill its blades.
Yeah the treaty that was never actually enforced at a best a farce. You guys are literally looking at it on face value. The peace treaty was to ensure the fighting stopped so the empire could regain its strength. That line of thinking is how the civil war started as the Nords were like ‘their taking away ma right to worship Talos’ when it wasn’t even enforced. The imperial heartlands were absolutely devastated to the levels of ‘Japanese invasion of Naknking’ of course the imperials wanted a peace treaty but the Nords all away up north who didn’t actually have to suffer from the invasions are getting all annoyed about it.
a "stalemate" where - the Dominion gets everything they demanded at the start of the war - the Empire has lost the loyalty of a substantial portion of its citizens in the province where its legions have historically always drawn their strength - the Dominion gets to summarily execute anyone they want and are given safe conduct by the Empire in order to do so is not a stalemate. it is a resounding defeat.
Okay, 1) LOL love the LARPing. 2) I am absolutely delighted at this... how do I put this... very knowledgeable discussion of Skyrim's politics. Can't wait until I can watch the full video.
The Aldmeri Dominion caused the divide and conquer. The Thalmor finance the wars and hold shadow governance of the imperial land and Skyrim. They seek to subvert national identity and replace it with their own distorted rule. Look up the "Protocols of the Elder Scrolls of Aldmeri (Zion).
The Empire was effectively destroyed after the oblivion crisis, and kinda became puppets for the Aldmeri Dominion. The stormcloaks have a right to hate the empire.
I'm a Stormcloak because: 1. The empire losing a war to the high elves is enough of a reason for people to have contempt for it and 2. gaining independence from a multicultural dictatorship is based.
There's nothing to debate. Born that way or not, mages are walking nukes and when you let them be you get the Tevinter Imperium. It may be cruel but in a setting with magic being as powerful as it is in DA, it is necessary that mages are strictly controlled and they proved that themselves when they caused the blight by literally trying to break into heaven and usurp god.
I usually stand on the “faith” side on those things, but the treatment of mages, while understandable due to the potential danger they represent, is dehumanizing on a cartoonishly evil level, and it’s not like the templars aren’t a potential danger as well (see red lithium)
Used to always go Stormcloak for the passion but after one day finally actually reading notes and journals and other bits of lore switched to neutral or Empire games. Whether he knows it or not Ulfric is a huge Thalmor asset and while it's annoying how we were to be executed; Tullius was right to try and speed run Ulfrics execution, Tullis was in charge of a key province and was to be preparing for round 2 with the Thalmor, instead he's dragged off to Skyrim to deal with the uprising and just wants to be ready for the next war. Neither side is truly wrong in this, it's alot of big picture vs little picture.
But how would the Empire be split? Skyrim might go it's own way on every other topic, but with the Aldmeri, Skyrim is 10X more motivated and proactive than the Empire. The Imperials are just outright lying, they won't put their money where their mouth is, because they've been conquered from within.
@@jackhazardous4008Someone's gonna go "but muh lore dragonborn" Well if the Thalmor get stomped either way it comes down to you being a patriot or a separatist. If they DON'T, splitting the Empire is a bad move. Hammerfell would have fallen without the Empire softening the Thalmor up.
Looking at a map of tamerial, and recognizing that the empire only has the provinces of cyrodil high rock and skyrim (and that’s only if they win the civil war) you quickly realize how badly they are disadvantages in geography, half of their territory can be easily accessed by aldmeri domanion forces (hell they have control over the a river that gives them a straight shot to the imperial capital) If we take the dark brotherhood story as canon (as is typically the case from older games they just never confirm if it was the protagonist or someone else doing faction quests) then amid all this the empire is dealing with an assassinated emperor with no heir Honestly even with skyrim in the empire I don’t see the imperials fighting off the domain. It would just be Cyrodil extracting wealth, men, and material from skyrim dragging them into a meat grinder. A much better tactic for skyrim would be to make an alliance between Hammerfell, Skyrim and convince high rock to break their allegiance to cyrodil and form an alliance with them, use cyrodil as a buffer zone Force the dominion to spread across multiple fronts all of which are geographically difficult terrain. Use the northern ocean to transport supplies and troops back and fourth between the 3 nations with a strong naval base at high rock guarding this waterway
Pagmatism does not work in the Elderscrolls . You need the gods at your back . If you allow the talos worship is banned the god of the empire is weakened. The elves win either way. The right choice is that the old empire must die to make way for the new
And if we look at the history of elder scrolls the dragonborn should be the one to found a new empire as a dragonborn chosen of Akatosh like Talos, Reman, and Allessia
Absolutely. The Dominion is currently playing for both diplomatic and religious victory, and winning on both. The Empire should allow Skyrim to secede, gain them as allies rather than spending resources and lives only to retain a weak grasp on the second-to-last province left of a weak dynasty.
The sad thing about the civil war is, no matter which side wins, or even if no one wins, the real winners are the Thalmor. If the Empire wins, that makes a statement that Talos worship will be smacked down brutally. If the Stormcloaks win, it makes a statement that humanity is divided. And in a long, drawn-out stalemate? The Thalmor are given everything they want.
My Dragonborn could take on the entire Thalmor army without a scratch. If Skulldafn Draugr are giving someone trouble, it's just because their character sucks. So a decent Dragonborn can absolutely side with Skyrim and have them win, which is what I choose to do.
@@atlerthedark3639With help from clandestine Imperial forces... just after a massive battle against the Empire left them depleted. Alone they would have been crushed.
The thing is, the Thalmor are more likely to be defeated by a demi-god riding in on a giant mecha and blasting them away with lasers then they are by a unified army of the other provinces of Tamriel. So yeah, if I had to pick a side, the Stormcloak's religious purity is more important than the Imperial's practicality.
Finally, a political discourse I am uncomfortably passionate for.
Fantasy politics are generally more fun to talk about.
Get into real elder Scrolls politics like morrowind.
None of this n'wah crap about muh cuck vassel state Is trying to cuck me
@@mrbigglezworth42 right because they aren't real.
Despite being 13% of the population of Skyrim, khajiits commit 52% of all thefts
Cats☕
No good Tiggers!
But most importantly… they have the wares if you have the coin.
@@MrCleates This is why the nicer ones are accepted. We need fences for OUR non-cat people crimes.
They always seem to have wares, and a need for coin.
The Redguard want to expel the elves, the Argonians want to expel the elves, hell even some elves want to expel other elves. Its only when Nords want to expel elves that certain people get upset. But theyre perfectly fine with the empire colonizing Skyrim.
Exactly! The Redguards pushed out the Thalmor by themselves yet the empire couldn't. Of course the empire says that they're the only hope against the Thalmor, that's what any empire would say when on the verge of collapse. If one independent country could push back the Thalmor, why couldn't a group of independent countries do the same?
I've maintained for the longest time that if the Empire truly wants to stop wasting resources and be as strong as possible for another war against the Dominion (which they are currently licking the ass of diplomatically), they'd use the opportunity to let Skyrim go. That way the Thalmor are driven out of Skyrim, since the Empire is no longer hosting their presence.
In exchange for recognition of national sovereignty, the Empire could ask for peace and future military support. They could exchange the same deal to Hammerfell (and Black Marsh if not already recognized). Voila! Empire now has the manpower to fight another war, with willing allies instead of subdued occupied provinces with low morale.
Colonizing Skyrim? Do you know how many shipments of grain go through the Pale Pass into Skyrim?
If the war had continued whole cities would have been lost to the Elves.
Another war is coming and neither of us are ready for it, much less alone.
This civil war is chiefly about the worship of Talos not any silliness about colonization or exploitation.
Imperials also worship Talos, Tiber Septim, the banning hurts as just as much as it hurts you.
But it was the one thing that the Thalmor would accept. They nearly sacked the Imperial City and captured the whole of Hammerfell's coastline.
Hammerfell did eventually push the Elves out but at a great cost.
Not to mention that Hammerfell was let go for strategic reasons which you have chosen to forget.
Hammerfell becoming independent was purposeful to continue the fight with aid coming through with their long border with us.
The Redguards could easily disappear into the desert and mountains and resupply through Imperial caravans.
The Nords don't want or need to expel the elves, they've already done that all the way back in the Merethic and First Eras. Ulfric's primary goal is the throne of Skyrim and, at least nominally, the restoration of Talos to the pantheon of the Divines, even if that means choosing the worst possible time in the 4E to do so (the looming threat of the 2nd Great War).
@@willl676 True, if Ulfric does win it doesn't actually mean an independent Skyrim.
Ulfric is smart enough to know he can't beat a real legion, he would have the Empire recognize him as the legitimate High King under the Empire.
Which of course would be breaking the Concordate as Talos/Tiber Septim worship would no longer be banned, which would lead to a 2nd Great War.
The Foresworn are just the "Love me Reach, love me hills, love me psychadelics, love me hagravens - simple as." Baz position.
Love me human sacrifice, live me daedra, too if memory serves.
@@TheMaleReiyep lol.
And much like the English lads they just happened to make an empire with a bunch of adventurous lads.
@@TheMaleRei love me weird acorn thing that goes in me chest hole
@@TheMaleRei And Lorkhan
Obviously, the Empire should take more of an interest in fighting the Thalmor than Diversifying the Reach
Diversifying? Ulfric is the one allowing Dunmer and Argonians into Eastmarch.
The Reachmen are Bretons same as the Bretons that have always lived in the Reach and are only encouraged to assimilate into Imperial society in order to cease their raiding.
They did, they fought as long and as far as they could. They lost. It was either all die or negotiate, the empire chose to negotiate. Because you cant fight tomorrow if you die today.
@@AdmiralNesence negotiated someone else's rights and culture away, and not their own, though. It'd be like if the Roman Empire agreed to never mention Caesar again under penalty of death.
@@acrab6527 yes, because the death would have extended to skyrim as well, which is infact a province of the empire, thus subject to imperial law, which is beholden to the white gold accords. This is as if the british empire signed the hague convention and canada expected to not be beholden to it, rather than simply ignoring it as canada did. the nords being pissy about lorkan rather than acknowledge the the plan to not get reamed by the mer while humanity regains enough strength to fully recover from the oblivion crisis is their small mindedness not the failing of the empire to do what mist be done.
@@darken2417 While in-game they're Bretons, in universe the Reachmen are actually another race of man entirely and (I think) the only one that worships daedra in their culture.
Also I should probably mention. Argonians are dock slaves in Windhelm and cannot legally enter the city. However you can own Argonian slaves, which ain't that an Elder Scrolls classic.
This is the content that the Lotus Eaters should put out more.
No. Balanced. Maybe one video game special debate per month.
MORE COSTUMES! MORE NERD STUFF!!
We like the nerd stuff we like the nerd stuff
Nerd Stuff!!!
With the costumes, I thought this might've been some sort of Halloween special I was late for.
The art of politics is to put your foe in dilemma in which every option is bad for your foe. Aldmeri dominion had played it masterfully.
That's the largest problem of it all. During peace time after the truce was signed, they just maxed into their diplomatic victory condition.
The dossier explicitly says they don’t want anyone to win the war, they want it to keep going because that drags both the Nords and Empire down. They don’t want Ulfric to win outright either because if you think about it Skyrim would be very hard to invade, you either cross thin mountain passes or go by the tundra icebergs in the sea. If Ulfric restores Skyrim to what it used to be pre-Empire they’d be more than a match for the Thalmor. The Traditional Kingdom of Skyrim was practically undefeated, and had one major defeat only after shitting on Chimer and Dwemer with the Thu’um for years in Morrowind.. no one has ever invaded Skyrim. It’s the perfect nation to defend and the Nords are too stubborn to lose ground.
The Thalmor finance the wars and hold shadow governance of the imperial land and Skyrim. They seek to subvert national identity and replace it with their own distorted rule. Look up the "Protocols of the Elder Scrolls of Aldmeri (Zion).
@@sercravenmohead3631 Sry to strongly disagree, but a united Empire was barley able to survive the Dominion attack. What do you think a single province can do, should the Dominion gain control over the majority of Tamriel? Especially since the pointless civil war wasted ressources of the strength of Skyrims population? And talks about the great past of the Nords are only deceiving about the fact that their glory days are long over. How many Thuum users are there in Skyrim now? The famous college of Winterhold is a mere shadow of itself, so how many well educated magic users are left there to fight against Thalmor mages supporting the assautling armies? Once the moutain passes are broken through, what bullwark will protect Skyrim from the scorching blade of the Thalmor? And once the Empire has fallen to the Thalmor, they would be free to engage in naval incursions into Skyrim, avoiding the mountains.
The Thalmor are not afraid of the strength Skyrim would posses, but rather that the distraction of imperial forces would end, that they possibly enter an alliance and be again a somewhat united force. Ending the civil war in whatever manner bears the risk of stabilizing the situation for humanity, whilste continuation weakens them and plays into the hands of the Dominion.
@@anonymussicarius8899 The United Empire was grossly mismanaged which is why it suffered so greatly at the hands of the Thalmor, they let Cyrodiil get ransacked by Lord Naarafin and the Empire turned to Skyrim to bail them out, Hammerfel was naturally able to defend itself from the Dominion on it’s own after the White Gold Concordat was signed, and due to the fact that elves reproduce slower means Skyrim and by extension the Empire should be theoretically stronger than the dominion at this point. That means the WGC shouldn’t have been signed in the first place, leaving allies like Hammerfel to fend for themselves and banning the worship of Talos, that was a stipulation designed to divide the Empire and they took the bait. Lucky for Skyrim they don’t need the Empire, but it’s the other way around the Empire needs them. I don’t think the coalition of the Dominion is doing good too, they mistreat the Bosmer and Khajiit alike and their alliance is doomed to fail as well. Skyrim shouldn’t get strung along enduring the abuses of the Empire’s mistakes and has a right to govern themselves out of self determination.
Magic isn’t particularly overpowered on the battlefield, if anything in the Thalmor’s case it helps them hold a line and mitigates their weakness in melee combat but the Nords would break through nonetheless, I don’t think magic is the end all be all of tamrielic warfare because the elves have been consistently defeated by men who aren’t particularly gifted in magic. Sure, magic is a great benefit but all races are capable of it too to lesser extents and one of the best mages to ever live was Shalidor who was a nord. In order to capitalize on the magic strength they also need to backing of Bosmer and Khajiit forces which is a strenuous alliance at best! Nords can reliably shatter lines by simply being better warriors that don’t have to rely on the finite magical abilities any given day. While it’s true you don’t see many “Thu’um users” we also don’t see the true extent of that and how it can be taught and learned. In the lore Kyne’s blessing was given to all men so that can be implied as a skill many could learn but it’s restricted by the pacifist Greybeards. Ulfric is considered to be pretty gifted with the Thu’um so who’s to say he couldn’t teach people? Also the scale of the Thu’um is tuned down a lot for gameplay purposes, in lore someone could shout city walls apart, the isle of Solstheim was created by Miraak shouting the continent apart, so Ulfric on the battlefield is likely to be a potent threat on his own. If he’s true to his word about a restoration of what Skyrim used to be then it’s plausible he can reform the practice of using Thu’um and end the Greybeards pointless pacifism which isn’t based on the gods punishing man but Jurgen Windcaller’s interpretation that we shouldn’t abuse Thu’um when in his time it was used all the time. What they preach is defeatism, if you were being scrutinized and punished by the gods they’d take your voice away. What happened at the battle of Red Mountain was the Chimer and Dwemer joining forces to defeat the nord invasion, the voice wasn’t being punished. You could accept their interpretations but it is not proven fact.
Last point, READ the freaking dossier! The Thalmor doesn’t want a victor, “a stormcloak victory is to be avoided” so they know the implications of what a true independent Skyrim can look like and acknowledge that it’s not in their best interest that neither side wins! That’s the hang up that loyalists can’t wrap their heads around, Skyrim is extremely hard for them to invade either by land or sea, the problem you don’t see is you go “well high elves excel at magic” but that’s all they are good at, sure great mages but good soldiers? Can they scout difficult terrain like mountains without fatigue? I think the attrition would be terrible for them because they are an un athletic race that relies heavily on magic. Not quite as nuanced as the Nords fighting in their homeland. Why does Tulius fare well in the current civil war? He employs locals still loyal to the Empire who know the land and customs of Skyrim like Legate Rikke, they have a chance at winning the political battle by appealing to the population. The Thalmor on the other hand would try to wage a war of extermination with limited knowledge of Skyrim because face it their pompous and think they are above it all, a foreign enemy like that would be met with extreme resistance and the Nords would fight to the last man, woman, and child. It wouldn’t be the same war you see right now, that’s why I think your perspective is unrealistic of how war is actually interpreted and fought.
Almost every named character sits on their ass and lets the Dragonborn do everything. Its a feature, not a fault 😂
Lmao true.
Connor- "Video games are a waste of time"
Also Connor-
He loves and defends Life is Strange, what did you expect?
I grew up playing them, but neither have the time or inclination to anymore. But at least I get to discuss the things I'm nostalgic for with my friends.
There are video games and then there is art I suppose.
@@Con_TomlinsonFallout New Vegas next please
@@nubbyboah Everyone is allowed to have their guilty pleasures.
On the topic of dark elf treatment, let’s not forget that mainlander dark elves viewed all outsiders as below them
Turnabout is fair play after all, but the nords aren't giving the Dunmer even a quarter of the shit the Dunmer flung at everybody else. For one the Nords aren't enslaving them.
Also to add on...
The Dunmer are only abused by a select number of Nords. That isn’t the same as truly being oppressed. Dunmer are allowed to do just about anything a Nord can (with the exception of living in a different part of the city... though I think that is most likely due to cultural differences rather then Nords not wanting Dunmer to have nice houses)
The fact is that Windhelm itself has created an entire section of their city to house people. Despite the bigotry and tension... they get to live their lives... lives that after the war would be substantially better and ultimately helped with.
From what I’ve seen. Most of the anti Dunmer sentiment comes from them not supporting The Stormcloak anyways... which honestly does entail them to ridicule.
You don’t get to live in my nation then simultaneously show support or feign fence sitting for the other side...
That’s like if I lived in the US and showed empathy for Isis who cuts people’s heads off and shout death to Americans.
Uh yeah go fake yourself too. Lol
@@terrencemoldern2756 Stop that! Reason and logic is racist and white supremacism! You must hate the faction of white men simply because they are white men! REEEEEE!
look up AllinAll "Argonians are Property"
@@BionAvastar3000
even the hist agree
Technically, since you are Dragonborn, if you became Emperor it would be a reintroduction of the blood of Akatosh into the imperial royalty. Wouldn’t be the Septim bloodline, but arguably since you’re a cracked out super warrior it’s be even better. A shame Bethesda is gonna make the Dragonborn vanish from history to take tentacles up the bum for eternity, like when the Hero of Kvatch contracted solipsistic schizophrenia and became Sheogorath.
Unfortunately it would make it a nightmare to justify saying your player character canonically is of a certain race and gender, and also probably has a canonical name to carry on the next line of Emperors. Much easier to say your soul is the property of Herma Mora, replacing Miraak.
@@Jonas_æ He's a male nord, everyone knows the Dragonborn is a male nord, just like everyone knows that the Nerevarine is a Portuguese skooma addicted Argonian.
That was one of the things that annoyed me playing Skyrim. Complete the thieves' guild and you're supposed to be Nocturnal's forever. Complete the dragonborn dlc and you're supposed to be Hermaeus Mora. There's at least one other claimant to your soul too iirc, but not exactly sure who, I might be thinking of Hircine if you stay a werewolf. Either way, you've supposedly pledged your soul to at least 2 daedric princes, if not more. Good luck figuring out that shit when you die.
@@captainmurphy4948 well, there’s Nocturnal, Hircine if you stay werewolf, I think Molag Bal even if you cure vampirism but probably not, Sheogorath because he’d find it funny, I forget if Namira, AzurA and Mehrunes Dagon also get a slice. Of course, since you’re an aspect of Shor you can also just walk into Sovngarde, I think Akatosh also vouches for you since technically you’re one of his children.
Basically, your afterlife will be several kalpas of ownership disputes.
@@kielbasamage Could swear that Nocturnal accepts a single dragonsoul instead
The empire was doomed back from the events of oblivion with the death of the empirical lineage and the destruction of the dragonsblood amulet. This lost them the protection of akatosh. The role of the empire at this point at best is to try and drag the thalmor down with them. Talos isn't the God of the empire, but the God of man, which is why the thalmor want his worship to be removed, because the concept of mankind, and the races of man themselves will be weakened without him.
Edit: Akatosh is the founding patron god of the empire, and is depicted as a dragon, hence the dragonsblood amulet.
He's the man-made-god. not the God of Man, thats Shor, who was left out of the imperial pantheon as some foolish atempt to appease elves
@@TreeStumpProdutionswhat if Talos mantled Lorkhan (Shor)? Thereby completing the him. A God reborn.
The Septims weren't even directly connected through lineage with Tiber Septim. Almost immediately the Septim family went insane and the Uriel Septim the VII you see in Oblivion is only connected by extended family to him through a marriage somewhere. the dragon blood is something Akatosh himself grants. Also the Arcturian heresy is probably correct and Talos isn't really a god like the rest of the Aedra, he's not an earthbone of creation and is most likely another facet of Lorkhan.
@@ReformedSauron It's very likely that's what happened with Tiber Septim back in Daggerfall. Though the concept of mantling seems to be a thing that happens very rarely in universe. I think it also happens with the Nerevarine.
@TreeStumpProdutions
Talos is the mantler of the role of lorkhan, who is the god of man. (For those that don't know, there are 6 different recognized ways, known as the Walking Ways to achieve at least some form of divinity. It works supposedly as "walking like them until they walk like you". One of the Walking Ways is called mantling. Mantling is where you take over the role of a god by having your life, or in the case of Talos, the three different characters of Hjalti, Wulfharth, and Zurin Arctus match up with important thematic elements of the god you are taking the role of basically.) They have overlap with the theme of removal of hearts and some other themes which I cant remember right now. Additionally talos is missing from their own pantheon, furthering the mantling of the role of the missing god lorkhan. Shor is the Nordic facet of depicting lorkhan.
Skyrim belongs to the Nords!
AND THE NORDS ARE SUBJECTS OF THE EMPIRE
The Nords belong in the empire
@@alexbruni1127Skyexit!
@@alexbruni1127 An Empire without Talos? Without it's soul?!
@@jtjames79Skexit*
I would like to point out that while the "Empire" lost the Great War via surrender, it was only because they valued Cyrodil (which was uniquely weak against naval invasions) over the rest of the Provinces. Had the War continued, Cyrodil would have gotten wrecked, but the thalmor would yave been defeated.
Skyrim is like the Afghanistan of Tamriel, would be impossible to invade I think
@@hengineerUnless you get massive support from the locals, which they are inclined to give to badass warlords and no one else.
This was quickly proven when Hammerfell refused to accept being handed over as part of the treaty and started fighting as an independent nation, and managed to drive the Dominion out and work out their own peace treaty. It's quite insane seeing as they have a massive coastal boarder facing the Summerset Isles.
@@Jonas_æ Both Hammerfell and Cyrodiil were devastated by the Great War. Even counting the Redguard's victory, that only came after the Empire had already defeated a great number of the Aldmeri forces in Cyrodiil and Hammerfell.
@@hengineer You misspelled "Blackmarsh."
I'd love to see a The Politics of Morrowind video, as Morrowind is significantly more complex in terms of politics, theology and ideology more than any other game in the series.
This is a man who honors the Sixth House and the Tribe Unmourned
@@theeccentrictripper3863 A fellow member of house Dagoth. We shall drive the mongrel dogs of the Empire out of Morrowind.
What a grand and intoxicating innocence!
The Tribunal did nothing wrong (except Almalexia and we all know what went wrong there)
But what about Daggerfall? The Iliac Bay is full of squabbling kingdoms, the Orc king trying to make his nation into a respected one, the Empire willing to reinforce its control of the region, the Totem of Tiber Septim and the Numidium...
please do things like this more often
Do all the elder scrolls
As long as they don't dress as a filthy Khajit.
Definatly. Perhaps the House Dres stance on workers' "rights".
Talking to you, Lizards.
Fallout New Vegas politics please
@@herbiehusker1889but they have wares if you have coin
Hammerfell became independent after the Empire failed them. Unlike Skyrim, they do not have the natural defenses of impenetrable mountain ranges on all sides yet they held the Aldmeri Dominion off by themselves as a coastal nation. As you learn from "My time in need", the will to face the Dominion still holds strong in Hammerfell (yes, the Alik'r warriors are the ones telling the truth in that quest).
The Emperor is canonically murdered by the Dark Brotherhood. We know of no heir to the throne of the Mede dynasty (which is its own lineage and hold no relation to the previous Septim dynasty of Talos which the Nords actually swore allegiance to in the first place).
Should the Empire quell the rebellion in Skyrim half the nation is still sympathetic to the cause. The Empire cannot expect to simply go back to the good diplomatic relations of the past, and must be ready to continue to spend resources to repress civilian uprisings after making martyrs of their heroes and kin.
My opinion on the war is that if the Empire truly wants to build strength to face the Dominion in the inevitable next Great War, they should not force Skyrim back into their ranks by creating martyrs and allowing their common enemy diplomatic power to persecute the native population within their territory.
Instead I propose a third option: The Empire should propose a deal to Ulfric saying the Empire will recognize Skyrim as an independent, sovereign nation in exchange for peace, and most importantly; a military alliance. Offer the same recognition in exchange for allied military support to Hammerfell.
In this scenario, Cyrodiil and Skyrim will both stop wasting resources on the conflict. The Thalmor will be driven out of Skyrim, without the Empire breaking its diplomatic obligations to them. The Empire regains its former strength with both Hammerfell and Skyrim back in its ranks, but without the negative side effects of subduing former provinces by force. No wasted resources, no loss of morale (in the former provinces (the natives of Cyrodiil can cry over lost territory in foreign lands later)).
Yeah, Hammerfell held out on its own. It isn't like we're told that the core of their fighting force are former legionairies that were discharged as 'invalids'. Oh wait...
@@richardradejr.4258 you mean the hammerfell citizens who joined the imperial legion in hammerfell, then left to go back to fight for their homeland? That's not the imperials saving hammerfell, that's the imperials collapsing due to incompetence.
problem is the imperials are out of dudes form the last war. Hammerfell is out of dudes from the last war. Skyrim lost nobody. The imperials want to draft half of skyrim to die in the next war. That's the only reason they won't let them go. They need slaves.
@@acrab6527 Where in the lore does it say that? Because veteran legionaires being left behind to help form Hammerfell's defenders is objectively true. They weren't simply Hammerfell recruits.
Hammerfell survived because they had discharged legionaries. If they hadn't they would have lost
the Empire has been falling apart ever since Martin Septim died, all the Mede Empire did was hasten the Empire's demise. There is the phrase "empires rise and fall" for a reason
Elisif=a widow whose advisers are the ones who make all of her decisions instead of her
Ulfric=a seasoned warrior in a land of warriors.
pretty clear who the better leader of Skyrim is.....plus the Empire tried executing the Dragonborn for no reason. First impressions are important ya know. the moment Tullius heard the captain bitch say "forget the list! he/she goes to the block" he shoulda gone "hold up soldier, what do you think you're doing? this person is free to go" but no, he was too busy talking to Ulfric to the point he almost let an innocent man/woman b executed. Tullius is old but I doubt he's THAT old to the point he cannot hear someone next to him try attempted murder. Imagine how screwed Tamriel would be if Alduin didnt show up in time and only arrived after the corrupt Empire executed an innocent man/woman.
Lets b honest, even if Torygg did ask the Empire for Skyrim to become independent they wouldve said no as they're desperately holding onto whatever territories they own. Thanks to Titus Mede the Incompetent the Empire has been losing more and more provinces in a short amount of time. Hammerfell pulled outta the Empire and went "if you're too cowardly and cucked to fight the Thalmor we'll do it our own damn selves!" and sure enough they kicked the Thalmor's asses outta Hammerfell and then there is the teeny tiny fact that the so-called battle that Titus led against the Dominon it wasn't even him, it was the Forgotten Hero. So not only is he an incompetent ruler but he's an incompetent ruler who takes credit for something he DIDNT do.
Finally! Some relevant political discussions...
12:50 "without its emperor who is going to fill the void there??"
For those who deep dive into the lore, there is a very strong case that the person who approached the Dark Brotherhood to order the hit and assassination of the emperor was....... the emperor himself. There is some deep prophecy that the person who'd reunite humanity to fight the High Elves is the person who wins the succession war (with the war being the making of the future emperor)
From which deep end did you pull this prophecy my friend?
@@akatsukicloak source: his ass
@@akatsukicloak It's a common theory. But supported more on "it could tecnically be true" and the accepting response of the emperor when you go to kill him than actual facts pointing into it being the case.
@@drag0nmancer if you knew Skyrim lore, you'd know it gets discussed
So Ulfric Stormcloak the true high king will become Emperor? Awesome.
Edit: That is unless ofc Betheshitsda has consumed even more soy milk and will redo the whole goddamn lore as they did in Fallout 4 in order to please the woke neckbeard population.
I used to be a normie like you, but then I got a mosque on my street and can no longer ignore reality.
That's why I cut down the orc strongholds 😂
Pain. 😢
@@KopperNeomani did a one man kristalnacht in The Grey Quarter a few weeks ago...
It was way funnier than it probably should have been, but unfortunately the Stormcloak city guards didn't appreciate my devotion to the cause.
@@ianmedford4855Because that's like cutting down Texans for moving to Florida due to half of Texas becoming volcanic wasteland. Morrowind and Skyrim are both in the same country, and deep down even the Stormcloaks know it.
@@KopperNeoman
"From the river to the sea, all of Skyrim will be free."🫡🫡🫡
The nerds and the geeks actually came together like Norm Macdonald predicted.
Really, the only thing that matters is which side the Dragonborn joins. Since the Dragonborn is more or less a one man natural disaster it’s only natural that whichever side wins the civil war could go on to destroy the thalmor with the help of the Dragonborn.
No because the hero of each game always dissappears and doesn't affect global events afterwards.
Yeah, the important question is what happens after the dragonborn.
@@Niyucuatroif the Dragonborn DLC is anything to go by you become the servant of the ball of eyes and tentacles just like Miraak was
@@michielwitteveen6676 it's one of the possible outcomes, yes. The games always leave it vague, so whether the main character has done or not something, things just happen anyways. Then they dissapear and nothing is known about them anymore
@@thelordofcringe I reject your canon and substitute my crappy fanfiction!
As a khajiit thief, i enjoy the infighting greatly.
Layers to this one. Very nice
M'aiq likes this one, for he did not pick side, but picked pockets instead...
@igotno_username1739mixed up the lizards and cats again.
Easy to enjoy things when you're out getting high off your tail, slurping a shot of skooma off a lizard's back and adding to the degeneration of The Empire! Get OUT!
With conflict, Khajiit sells many wares.
Something important to consider with Josh's argument about uniting the armies of Men to face the Thalmor is that it is almost certain that an independent Skyrim would make a pragmatic alliance with the Empire against the Thalmor, just because the realpolitik calculus of this decision makes this practically a necessity for both Skyrim and the Empire. Also, just on Rory's Forsworn business, he's right that they predate the Nords in Skyrim, being original Nedic inhabitants of the Reach, while the Nords descend from Atmorans, who, as the name would imply, migrated to Skyrim from Atmora.
Reachmen are Bretons. Bretons are the descendants of the Direnni and the Nedes. So, Nords are the first human inhabitants of Skyrim. Also, it were the Nords who defeated the Falmer of Skyrim and then aided Alessia against the Ayleids which brought an end to Ayleid rule over the Nedes. So without the Nords, there wouldn't have been any free Reachmen.
@@zekun4741 While it is true that the Ayleid Empire had enslaved the Cyrodiilic Nedes, the Reach was never conquered by the Ayleids, nor was it dominated by the Falmer or Dwemer to the extent that the Reachmen were generally enslaved, so the Reachmen were not freed by the Nords. The Druadach Mountains were a homeland for free Reachmen, even as far back as the Merethic Era. Rather, when the Nords entered Skyrim, the Reachmen were already free, and were subjgated by Olaf One-Eye sometime in the 5th Century of the 1st Era, as is evidenced in the plaques around the Palace of Kings.
Side Note: Reachmen being modelled as Bretons in Skyrim is more of an engine limitation than anything else and wasn't actually meant to imply Direnni ancestry of the Reachmen, who lived far outside the Direnni Hegemony anyway. The Bretons proper were descendents of the Direnni and the Galen specifically, who were only one Nedic people.
Doesn't matter if they were there first. All that matters is if they can hold it, which they can't.
I'm sure they'll get to open some casinos in the future once they stop practicing human sacrifices.
Depends which part of the Reach we're talking about since it's partially part of Skyrim and partially High Rock. Generally the Reachmen's claims are weak and the areas were settled by Nords and "Reachment" around the same time, and the elves killed off many Nord settlers in the Reach.@@jimslickens2325
Right to land is a BS concept, to the victor goes the spoils.
The Nords should have no trouble beating the Aldmeri Dominion on their own, just secure a large supply of Fortify Restoration potions and make everyone into gods
Even from a lore perspective, there's nothing to say that an independent Skyrim couldn't form some sort of mutual defense pact with other sovereign-minded nations. Hammerfell, Black Marsh, and even Morrowind come to mind -- Hell, just imagine if Ulfric reformed the Ebonheart Pact with the An-Xileel and a rejuvenated House Redoran? No force on Tamriel could stop them
@@chesterstevens8870From a "lore perspective" one asshat with sufficient CHIM could make Skyrim the native land of the Altmer retroactively.
because Hammerfell was no longer a part of the Empire the Redguards actually bent the Thalmor over and did WAY better against the Dominion than the Empire ever did. If anything at this point the Empire are a crutch.
@@chesterstevens8870 There's plenty to indicate otherwise actually, the Dunmer and the Altmer don't like eachother but there's always been beef with the Nords since the days of the war of the first council and they wouldn't want to get dragged into the wars of men, same with the Argonians who are by the 4th era staunchly isolationist and anti elf AND humans alike, and Hammerfell is friendlier to the Empire than they ever were to the Nords, being religiously more Anuic than Padomaic despite being humans.
@@gabrielinostroza4989 Hammefell and the Redguards still have a stronger sense of community with the men of Skyrim then they do oppressive Elves, so a shared enemy might be enough to convince them to work with the Nords. Doubly so when the Redguards recently booted their foreign invaders from their lands. As for Blackmarsh, I think they're only issue with the Empire was that despite officially making slavery illegal, it couldn't really enforce that in Morrowind, which is where most of the Argonian slaves ended up going. The Dunmer though are so thoroughly screwed that they might just be up to side with anyone who will help them with their mini apocalypse that just keeps getting worse.
Even for all of the debate going on nobody stops to mention how the empire as it sits now not only has no legitimate Emperor (given the lineage of Tiber Septim has been dead for 200 years) but also has the audacity to allow Thalmor agents to operate a secret police within their borders that kidnaps and tortures its citizens without charge or warning.
Even if the Empire would be able to defeat the elves (which is doubtful, the only shot they have is the Dragonborn which the Stormcloaks could also have) they’ve proven themselves to be unable or unwilling to protect their own citizens.
Not to mention there are several things stopping the Elves from invading Skyrim in the absence of the Empire. Primary the large mountain ranges, the easily made alliances with the human nations of High Rock, Hammerfell, and Atmora, oh and the 5 ton flying fire lizards that have been destroying the land for the entire plot of the game.
Precisely.
The Elves don't need to invade skyrim. They're after the Adamant tower, so they can unmake the first convocation. It doesn't matter if they can invade some mountain range in the middle of nowhere when they're planning on dropping a 9th level "nuh uh" on reality.
"oh and the 5 ton flying fire lizards that have been destroying the land for the entire plot of the game." The same one's that by the end of the game are most likely on the path to the way of Paarthunax. And if not are at the very least no longer a chaotic threat because they're terrified after the Dragonborn LITEREALLY ATE the soul of their god.
It's not the first time the Empire lost a dynasty. Hell the Empire didn't even start with the Septim dynasty.
Mountain ranges don't mean anything to Aldmeri mages, they can just levitate over them.
Atmora? The nation that has been taken over and destroyed by the Tsaeci thousands of years ago ? If anything is coming out of that continent it's an army ready to conquer everyone.
The dragons aren't allied to the Nords, they are a bigger liability to them than the elves.
And sure an alliance of 3 countries (one of them just out of a civil war and another one still badly bloodied from their conflict against the Thalmor) is somehow going to achieve what 4 countries couldn't.
Not only that, but Redguards, Bretons and Nords help each other because of the Empire. It's what keeps them allied in the first place.
The Empire isn't some weak entity, it's only thanks to the Empire defending Hammerfell that the Redguards weren't taken over by the Aldmeri. It's also thanks from help coming from the Empire that Redguards reclaimed the land they'd lost to the Aldmer. It's also thanks to the Empire that Skyrim wasn't taken over.
Thinking that Skyrim would do just fine on its own is just crazy talk.
Yeah the Empire is basically doomed to to have its own civil war in Cyradil.
Contra on Ulfrics motives. He didn't say he should be high king, he just said Torrig shouldn't. He even refuses to take the crown when you finish the Stormcloaks questline, because he shall only rule if the people want him. He also never recruited any soldier, the people came to him on their own will.
Well.. he does say that he will take the title as soon as the Moot is held and the Jarls agree, which he acknowledges to Galmar is a foregone conclusion.
I am a Stormcloak supporter, but those remarks are just diplomatic niceties, as he already know they have no choice but to crown him at that point.
@@Jonas_æ Yes, of course. I just wanted to clarify some things.
If only he didn't have an illigitimate half-altmer child with Elenwyn.
@@tzaphkielconficturus7136lol what are you talking about 💀
@@tzaphkielconficturus7136careless thuum?
My reason for joining the Stormcloaks was always much simpler and more personal:
The Empire was gonna have me executed just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
No way in hell I was gonna support them after that.
A cautionary tale about how tyrants create their own worst enemies.
@nrrork, I couldn’t agree more with your position. The tyrannical nature of the Empire from the beginning, has the dragonborn slated for the block, simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. To hell with the empire.
I always helped Hadvar during the escape just because he seemed like a decent, honourable and well-liked dude. He also offered to take my body back home to my people whatever race I picked so I could be buried (if you're an Argonian this is a huge deal), and even stood in front of the chopping block when a dragon was spewing flaming bullshit all over the place. But that was only Hadvar. The rest of the Empire were another matter.
@@TheWildManEnkidu And Ralof goes out of his way to tell you to get up instead of running to safety immediately.
Another personal reason: in the Empire I'm just a cool guy. In independent Skyrim I'm the 3rd most important person in the kingdom.
That is the same reason i joined storm cloaks too i could care less about the empire after that
*"The Stormcloaks are distasteful... To me... The Empire is the only thing that brings me joy in life."*
-Bilbo Baggins
Boogie2998 would absolutely support the empire. It's the only thing that brings him joy.
- Bilbo Baggins would never support Empire for multitude of reasons, but most important being that he valued autonomy and sovereignty. Shire itself was part of a larger polity, (Arnor), but self-governed and fought for its independence when humans tried to take it over. And later Aragorn granted them independence.
Bilbo would always stand for the smaller people´s right to self-govern their own matters.
@@samuellund1377 And this one time he'd be absolutely right.
@@matiasluukkanen7718 What are those lies and slander that I'm reading? Cease it!
I like that people can have a reasonable disagreement on who is in the right in this conflict.
The storm cloaks are the correct side, but I quite like how even handed the conflict is.
Yes, it's refreshing how it's not just insults as usual in this debate, probably because they actually know and respect each other. It would have been much better with Carl or Beau there to make comparisons with real history examples of medieval and ancient rebellions and civil wars though.
No they aren't. The whole Civil War is about Talos. The Imperials also worship Talos.
Everyone knows that another war is coming with the Aldmeri Dominion, the only ones that don't are the Nords.
The average Nord believes that there haven't been dragons for thousands of years and know nothing of the numerous Imperial vassal dragons as recent as fifty years ago.
Not to mention the Stormcloaks have only been fighting peasant Nord imperial militias. Across the Pale Pass there is a real legion preparing to cross if this militia can't handle this small problem. (A note in game)
A real Imperial legion has full fledged Battlemages, Dragonriders, and real soldiers. The Stormcloaks will get absolutely obliterated if the war continues.
But of course this is unlikely as even if Ulfric deposes Elisif the more likely resolution is that the Empire washes its hands of the situation and simply recognizes Ulfric as the High King of Skyrim and he knowing he can't win a prolonged war will submit to Imperial authority.
This peace would undoubtably lead to another Elven invasion as we have broken the Concordate and we'd both be completely unready for it.
@@darken2417 Any source on those dragon vassals? First time i heard of it.
@@darken2417 Mods ≠ Canon.
@@darken2417the Imperials bow to the demands of the Thalmor. Churchill > Chamberlain.
Kill the Thalmor
Kill the Forsworn
Kill the Vampires
Kill the Dark Brotherhood
And especially goddamn the Falmer.
And while we're at it, the Guado from Final Fantasy X.
and those damn Hag Ravens, jeez
Also, the Thieves Guild and the Imperials.
@@LoganLS0 And the Stormcloaks, and all who oppose Dagoth Ur.
@igotno_username1739 Mountains are always better than buildings. Vivek is such a nerd.
I was with ya till vampires and dark brotherhood.
Vampires probably have a better idea going on for Skyrim and well the DB they fucking suplex the emperor into oblivion like chads
Talos was also in Morrowind. You meet him at Ghost Gate just before your final confrontation with Dagoth Ur.
Question for the Imperial side: would you want Britain to stay in the EU so that it could better resist Russia?
It's more like saying: if China controls the American west coast, shouldn't Florida secede so Americans can fight them on two fronts when the time comes? 🤦♂️
Britain isnt being threatened by Russia. Russia taking any aggressive military steps against the UK is basically 0%. Completely different scenarios
If the EU was currently at war with Russia, Britain was trying to leave through violent rebellion, and Russia's stated goal was the complete genocide of all western Europe, then yes.
Talos admits it's time for a new empire
@@HoppeliteI think he means that as a hypothetical. :)
Imagine Dagoth Ur inviting himself here to share his knowledge and wisdom 😅😅
"ARGONIANS ARE THE 18 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION AND DO 80 PERCENT OF THE CRIMES."
sorry, this is a CHIM neighborhood
It was this exact channel that convinced me that the Stormcloaks are right. After learning about philosophy and politics from you guys I applied that to the conflict of Skyrim and decided that the Empire didn’t even have the strength of will to defeat the Thalmor let alone the strength of arms.
My thoughts exactly. How does the damned Lotus Eaters not realize that a remote, unaccountable, culturally different government that lets the intelligence and religious agents of another state come and imprison, torture and kill people en masse with impunity is an intolerable poison to any people with any bit of self respect or survival values.
The Stormcloaks are morally right. The land does belong to the native people inhabiting it. Skyrim DOES belong to the Nords. If the Empire force upon them diplomatic deals that allow foreigners to religiously persecute them, they have a moral obligation to rebel.
Moreover, as a point of diplomatic and strategic maneuvering: The Empire SHOULD allow the Stormcloaks to win. This because it means both sides (who both wants to fight a common enemy) stop wasting their resources and can start preparing for the second Great War. Offer Skyrim a deal of recognized national sovereignty in exchange for peace and military alliance, and you get their armies on your side WILLINGLY.
They have neither the strength, nor the willingness. Imperials are comfortable letting Thalmor agents hunt down Nords in Skyrim because it doesn't affect them, when opposing their terms might have. It's corrupt, decadent people throwing the people they see as beneath to the wolves in order to maintain their lifestyles and positions.
@@Jonas_æ the stormcloaks were an thalmor false flag operation. the empire would already be gearing up for the next war if the stormcloak had kept talos worship on the down-low. instead the thalmor pit both sides against each other in order to keep the empire from rebuilding.
@@skeemnave4882not really, the Thalmor are only interested in the war continuing and not in either side winning so in the end siding with either side of the civil war is contrary Thalmor interests
Plus we don’t really know if he’s currently working with them since you’d think it would me mentioned in is file that he started the war to advance Thalmor interests
Hippity Hoppity, Argonians are property.
Damn right.
Good meme lol
But also, An-Xileel.
I thought the argonian invasion proved hippity hoppity morrowind is argonian. Also argonians invaded oblivion, they might legit be the most powerful nation in elder scrolls currently.
I remember in the old games the nords always ran aroun in fur loincloths looking like Conan. Sad to see how pozzed they are from centuries of imperial rule by the time of Skyrim.
The bandits are the true Nords.
When Emperor Titus Mede II signed the White Gold Concordat he signed away the Empire's autonomy. The Thalmor now have agents and advisors at every level of the Empire's Government and Bureaucracy keeping tabs and calling the shots on everything, nothing can be done within the empire's operation without the Thalmor giving the green light for it. By signing the Concordat, the Empire "surrendered" in all but name, capitulated to every demand the Thalmor asked, and is now little more than a vassal to the Dominion. All this talk of the Empire one day "striking back" is cope when you realize the Thalmor have the highest levels of the Imperial legionary brass in their back pocket. It's literally over for the Empire, it is fully compromised by the Dominion, a puppet state. At this point in the lore the Empire is actually now more of a liability not just to the races of Man, but to Tamriel as a whole, then some unifying banner to rally under.
Turkroach-I mean, Evlish hands wrote this post
False. There's only justiciars in Skyrim; the rest of the Empire is doing just fine without Thalmor checking on them. Hell, there's the massive Imperial army south of Cyrodiil just waiting for round 2 of the Great War.
Also, the Empire and the Thalmor are guaranteed to go to war against each other again. The Thalmor openly tell you, Tullius openly tells you, he even says that the Skyrim civil war is just dress rehearsal for round 2 of the Great War which is due any day now.
It makes sense you believe the conspiracy theory that the je-I mean, the elves secretly control the empire, because other wise there is no good reason to back the stormcloaks
Is this from that Dagoth Ur/Joe Rogan UA-cam series
Much of what you said is probably wrong. Literally the highest ranking Imperial in Skyrim tells you they are maneuvering to have a chance to defeat the Thalmor. The Empire is insanely luckily to have survived the first war and are trying to make the best circumstances to survive the next. It's blatantly obvious. Losing Skyrim means everyone is SOL.
Well, Bethesda wasn't very nuanced in their writing. For example, when you first enter the Palace of Kings in Windhelm, you hear Ulfric talking to his general, Galmar. "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, whose names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."
Meanwhile, when you enter Castle Dour in Solitude, you hear Tulius telling his Legate to lie and manipulate Balgruuf so that he'll side with the Empire against Ulfric, and that's not to mention the torture chambers under it, where Stormcloak prisoners are being tortured, while Thalmor hang around and say cutesy things like "Filthy Nords. Soon, your entire race will be eradicated."
And of course, we can't forget how they're more than willing to execute a Jarl, effectively a petty King, in his own country, without a trial, as well as the Dragonborn, who was just looking to cross the border.
There's no moral argument to be made in favor of the Empire. They're the bad guys in that dynamic. There's a pragmatic argument to be made for them, that they could be using these resources to fight the Thalmor, but there's nothing to suggest that would happen with certainty. It's a convenient slogan for them to say, "This is why you need us. We're protecting you. You'll die without us", but their own actions would contradict that.
Good video, by the way. It's a nice distraction from current, gloomy events and subjects.
Distraction from current events?
Everything you wrote just summed up modern European politics, more or less 😂
My intuitive desire to join The Stormcloaks always came from the awful big-government/ centralized power/"it's for your own safety"/ "the end justifies the means" vibe the Empire gave me. Then, the further I went into the lore, the more I confirmed my decision . I feel it shares a lot of points with your take 🍻
There is something to be said about writing them like this. Simply put, anyone in public who doesn't want to be labeled a r****st will automatically side with the empire (a frighteningly real problem that has developed).
Skyrim basically fed the player with more than enough info to realize the Thalmor are the real problem and that the Empire is in decline no matter the outcome of the war. You literally assassinate the Emporer and nobody important gives a darn.
I do love the Empire, but I love it the same way I love Rome. The Empire of Rome fell long before Rome fell, and by that point it was nowhere near what it used to be.
I respectfully disagree. Ulfric has some decent motives, but his strategy, politics, and overall practicality of his approach is flawed. Ironically Tullius and Ulfric are fighting the same enemy, but Ulfric isn't patient enough. Both hate the Thalmor, but Tullius is biding his time and building up his forces to kick the thalmor out for good. The best way to beat the Thalmor is if Skyrim and the empire work together to expel them, when they were ready. Ulfric starting a civil war only helps the Thalmor regardless who wins.
@@xertristhe problem is that the empire had enough time to recover and even mass a new powerful army but they are already too penetrated by the thalmor, rotten to the core.
Of all the arguments against stormcloaks I can’t believe how many people still misread the thalmor dossier on ulfric and think he’s a sleeper agent or double agent. Hammerfell is free as skyrim should
People really think they have a "gotcha" with that.
It simply reads that they see him as useful while the conflict is ongoing. Somehow they miss the part where they absolutely want to avoid him winning.
@@Jonas_ætrue too.
As a 11 year old in 2011 I believed the Stormcloaks were correct. I got a little older and played the game again but with the Empire and thought they were right. Now I’m 23, I was correct the first time. The Stormcloaks were right all along. Except the fact they didn’t raid the Thalmor Embassy.
The Stormcloaks were right in the terms of taking back Skyrim, which is small scale compared to the goals of the Empire but on a large scale the Empire shouldn’t have lost, they are the last force of man holding Elves back.
Actually the Redguard are the only humans (why TES 6 is partly or wholly set in their lands) that are holding back the Thalmor. The Empire is also under a Thalmor treaty of 'peace',basically a puppet state. 🤔
@@paulchurchill5045And the Redguards would have been crushed without the Empire. They just barely managed to repel a battered Thalmor with Imperial assistance. They would stand no chance against a battle-ready Thalmor alone.
@@paulchurchill5045Where is TES6 set again, Highrock? If what you said is true that means we will learn about the lore outcome of the Civil War in books in TES6.
@@paulchurchill5045 Redguards just got lucky with Thalmor exhausting themselves with Empire.
Also "Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174"
It is also known that empire is preparing for second great war as are thalmor. If empire had rolled over what would be the point?
Did you read the journal revealing Ulfric to be a Thalmor spy? The war was orchestrated by the Altmer-nazis to weaken both skyrim and the Empire.
4:27 You forget or don't know but Skyrim isn't the only loss of the Meade Empire's blatant loss to the Aldmeri Dominion, Hammerfell was forfeited by the Empire so the Redguard waged a defensive war against the weakened Dominion and managed to repel them without an Empire army.
Incorrect. The defenders were heavily reinforced by legionaries deemed "invalid" for further action by high command, and Hammerfell only got released fro mimperial control, since otherwise they Titus Mede II. would have had to accept the Thalmor demands for Hammerfell. By releasing Hamemrfell from the empire, he allowed them to continue fighting when the rest of the Empire had been to weakend to continue.
I have thousands of hours in Skyrim, and no matter how evil my character roleplay got, I could never bring myself to side with the Empire.
A discussion like this about Legend of the Galactic Heroes (1988) would be cool.
LoGH might be from a different reality/timeline because of how much better it is than any other anime we have in this dimension.
I would give many things to see Carl and everyone else at LH cover Legend of The Galactic Heroes. But I hold no hope for it, as it bears a singular mark of shame: Anime
They did Berserk though@@pwh1981
Funny, I could never bring myself to support the stormcloaks. Not just an aesthetic choice either but a principled one. The Empire is simply stronger, canonically Ulfric is a tool of the Thalmor and funded by them as well. If you had played the Imperial quest line you would have found out that the empire is planning an all out attack against the thalmor but ulfrics rebellion is not undermining that. The thalmor know this.
@@pwh1981The 10 light novels have been translated into English tbf. Their vocab is limited and there are quite a few mistakes in the last few (I'm assuming the translators were on a deadline), but they're still pretty good
- Windhelm still houses almost all of the dark elf refugees from the eruption of the redmountain, despite being branded the "racist" faction
- Tullius is openly racist against nords
- Stormcloaks will accept you into their ranks even if you're a high elf
- An independent Skyrim would still be on the side of the Empire in a potential future war with the dominion, so the "Skyrim can't win alone" etc arguments fall flat in the water
- The idea that "empire keeps the dominion out of skyrim" is silly, when you see in every part of the game that the Thalmor can do quite literally whatever they want within the borders, and the empire turns a complete blind eye to their actions (College of Winterhold questline is one example.)
- If Skyrim were to be independent, it wouldn't have to abide by the White-Gold Concordat, and the people would freely worship Talos, while still keeping a mutual relationship with the empire
tldr: the empire really just wants consolidate all the power it can within itself, because that's what empires do
tbh the biggest issue is that instead of being cringe, the Stormcloaks should be seeking to ally with Morrowind as fellow Padomaics against the Anuic Thalmor menace.
@@vivecthepoet36or with Hammerfell for the "F U Titus we are better off on our own!" club
Are you sure? When half of the population of Skyrim is against the stormcloaks? After Ulfrix takes over he will immediately replace all jails who disagree with him and have his puppets obey him. You also think the empire will just give up on Skyrim that easily? The empire you see in game isn't even a proper legion according to the notes found in game. Yet they are already struggling so much.
Another thing people just ignore is that Skyrim doesn't need to invade the Aldmeri Dominion they literally just need to defend Skyrim. Which it's location makes stupidly easy the Elves either have to sail around the entire continent via a notoriously dangerous ocean and conduct a Sealanding, or they have to March through Black Marsh (which good luck lol) or the Empire which I don't think the Empire is going to allow an entire High Elf army to walk through their nation. Even if they managed such a feat they would have to fight an army of seasoned gorrila fighters in a freezing cold land where their are thousands of caves for Stormcloaks to ambush them out of. It would be their Afghanistan
Long live Ulfric Stormcloack, the true High King of Skyrim. Ulfric is blessed by our beloved god Talos and he'll lead us in glorious battle against the Elves and their minnions. Skyrim belongs to the Nords, we need no mongrel dogs of the Empire, no degenarate Cyrodil. Redguards were able to beat the Elves alone, so can we. We'll do with the Thalmor what Ysgramor did with the Snow Elves (and he did nothing wrong).
If Ralof isn't an avatar of Akatosh leading you on the righteous path, how did I train sneak, one and two handed up to 100 in the tutorial area with him?
"I used to be an adventurer like you. Then I took an arrow in the knee..."
"Heard about you and your honeyed words..."
There's a great deal of cosmological weight involved, actually. As Tiber Septim's spirit himself speaks to the Nerevarine and admits the empire is dying.
"Some say Ulfric desires to be king and nothing more. Have they not seen that his anger floats on a sea of tears?"
-Galmar Stone-Fist
I used to favor the imperial army, but it became quite apparent in both gameplay and lore that the Thalmor were nothing to fear.
This point is ignored far to often.
The Dominion is having it's own internal struggles. Hardly the great, unified threat it wants to present itself as.
@@dianabarnett6886 given that other regions were able to emerge victorious after fighting only a little longer, I find it hilarious that the Empire caved and had one of their chief deities banned in the subsequent treaty.
@@DPRK_Best_Korea Because it wasn’t as simple as ‘other regions won’. The red guards where only able to push the Thalmor back after the empire pulled a bamboozl them by ‘pulling their legions away’ and ceding the territory to the Thalmor only for the legions to discharge a shit tone of “medically unfit” men who then turned around and keep fighting the Thalmor who were now under strength from diverting troops to Cyrodill and caught off guard.
Also I think you stormcloak supporting types don’t really know how fucked the imperial city got. What the Thalmor did was akin to the rape of Nanking and you are like ‘herp deep why did they want peace lol’.
And even then the peace treaty couldn’t even be enforced since the elves lost so many men. They couldn’t actually make the empire carry out the orders and empire is canonically helping the redguards in a covert manner against the Thalmor and Talos worship was still going on undeterred.
The whole reason they Thalmor are funding Ulfic and keeping the civil war going is so they can drain the Empire of its military strength before the next war. It’s why Tulis has to make do with local recruits since the Empire knows if they divert troops out of Cyrodil the Thalmor could launch a surprise attack which they won’t be able to beat back it their army is fighting in Skyrim.
Long story short the reason the civil war is happening is because the Nords didn’t have to deal with an invasion in their own country and see their family’s and children getting kill by genocidal fanatics and because their leadership is to dumb and arrogant to understand long term ‘diplomacy’ or the long conning your enemy and the concept of a Cold War. Their prideful arrogance and solutions being to fight to the death no matter the cost works for them but not everyone else in the empire.
@@DPRK_Best_Korea Titus Mede had the Dominion by the balls and then threw the fight at the end. Irritates me to no end when Empire supporters claim it is the only thing holding the Dominion back when it has already failed at that.
1. Current emperor line is not dragonborn
2. Hammerfell managed to fight off the Thalmor without the Empire
3. Paying attention to how the Jarl's of each side are characterized reveals the Empire to be the favoured side of bethesda, the beginning of the game is a rare exception for the sake of attempted balance I presume
1.) True
2.) Incorrect. Even if you discount all the initial fighting, the core of the resistance force is made up of former legionairies that were discharged due to being judged 'invalids'.
3.) Had thought about it before, but you might be right. I know I'm much less likely to side with Ulfric if it means I must dispose Jarl Balgruuf.
Hammerfell faught off the Dominion after the Empire had already weakened it after 5 years of the Great War.
Deingier was portrayed as old and paranoid but he was absolutely portrayed better than his asshole nephew Siddgier.
All hail Ulfric Stormcloak, the true high king of Skyrim! Down with the Empire and the ophidious Dominion!
Your king is a Thalmor rent boy.
@@aceambling7685just having a laugh mate lol
Let me guess, someone stole your sweetroll.
Now this is the content we want to see.
This is a certified hood classic
That's what UA-cam was made for
This makes me wish the Forsworn were invited to the peace negotiations
Probably the 2nd most underutilized faction in Skyrim behind the Silver Hand.
Why? The Forsworn are nothing more than bloodthirsty, barbarian savages who worship Daedra and commit child sacrifice. They have no say in the management of Skyrim or it's future, and rightly so. Skyrim (including the Reach) is for the Nords!
My first play through was as an Argonian with a hatred for High Elves being my sole motive for joining the Stormcloaks. It was that stonetoss tugging meme, Skyrim edition.
I tried looking up the meme, but instead of the original i just see reddits.
I joined the Stormcloaks as an Altmer. I headcannoned it as me being a Thalmor agent undermining the Empire even further.
Skyrim should've rallied to the dragonborn and restored a line of dragonblood to the empires throne
Stormcloaks: "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"
Imperials: "Skyrim belongs to the empire!"
Thalmore: "Skyrim belongs to the dominion!"
Orcs: "I just wanna kill things and praise Malacath."
Nailed it lol
Also don’t forget the forsworn.
Forsworn: The Reach belongs to the Forsworn
One of the stupid things about Skyrim is that It’s set 200 years after oblivion and for some reason they decided that the eruption of red mauntain in morrowind happened 5 years after oblivion. This is wierd because the because when looking at the dark elf ghetto in windhelm it does not seem like they’ve been there for 200 years. There has been no integration and they’re still acting like refugees. By the nine why hasn’t Ulfric or some other jarl of the city sent them back yet. Seriously the governing elite in Windhelm seem about as effective as the tories
I like this side content and discussions. Too much doom IRL, we already know its fucked
*Mehrunes Dagon is red*
*Hammerfell likes curved swords*
*It has been said*
*That Skyrim belongs to the nords*
Ulfric and the Stormcloaks did nothing wrong
Except murder High King Torryg, who had been willing to talk to him & possibly abdicate as well.
Boooo! You're dooming the human race.
Ulfrick challenged Torygg to a duel he knew he’d win. Whether you like it or not, he’s the rightful high king of Skyrim.
If he knew he would win why did he have to use the voice? What Ulfic did was the equivalent of challenging someone to a boxing match then showing up with a shotgun and blasting them. The fact he used the voice either mean he never intended to be a fair fight and used it as a means to get close to the king to kill him or Ulfic was outmatch and the High King was a better fighter then people assumed.
could be information from bad sources? it has been awhile since i have played the game but i always interpreted the "scene" or story to be a mega flex on everyone that Ulfric is traditionalist that learned a bit of the old religion or whatever.
It also brings to mind the duel at the end of the 1984 Dune movie where the main character wins a duel vs Sting then uses his magic voice power to shout a big stone under his body in half. To prove at anytime during the duel he could have just killed him with his voice but chose not to. if skyrim's lore was written by someone on drugs like morrowind i would like it to be this way. @@Gdsryrox
Nah useing the voice in the duel was right and proper. It was shameful of Torryg to have not learned how. Every Nord has the right to study. Much less one who claimed to be high king.
Something that bothers me about the Skyrim we got officially got was the Talos worship being banned. The worship of Lorhkan and all off shoots of him should be the main focus. The banning of Talos would only effect Imperials while Nords would be pissed about the banning of Shor. Not only that, there should've only been 60 years between Oblivion and Skyrim, not 200.
The real solution is making the last dragonborn the new emperor and destroying the filthy pointy ears.
I am so SICK of the notion that the empire is "standing between Skyrim and the Thalmor". The empire enforces the will of the Thalmor, against its own people! They built a damn embassy for them in hjallmarch. The so-called empire is nothing but the Thalmor's gestapo at this point. We Nords would rather die fighting than live without MIGHTY TALOS.
SKYRIM belongs to the NORDS. 🐻❄
They only stopped public worship. They never enforced anything else. But ulfric publicly worshipped and rebelled which gave the thalmor grounds to take matters into their own hands. The empire had no choice because they were still weakened and couldn't afford another war. If the rebellion wouldn't drain the empire they may be able to beat the thalmor faster. Also don't forget that ulfric is a puppet of them. They try to keep him alive so the empire wastes resources. And even if skyrim is independent. What's next. The empire will lose to the thalmor and skyrim stands no chance alone. Your short term gains will be your long term failure
Thought the “Embassy” was in Haafingar(the region where Solitude is).
Otherwise I agree.
The only reason the Empire is letting the Thalmor is in due to Ulfic. Before then the Gold White Concordant wasn’t enforced at all by the empire since the Thalmor didn’t have the means to after the Great War. They are only present in Skyrim as they are using the Civil war as an excuse and the empire can’t say no due to building up their own forces to fight the Thalmor in the inevitable next conflict and the civil war taking up their attention.
People like to say the ‘empire surrendered all in name’ but it’s actually the opposite. They surrendered only in name as since the Elves where beaten back they couldn’t actually enforce the restrictions of the peace treaty and the Empire still allowed Talos worship and has been helping out Hammer-fell fight back the Thalmor.
It wasn't a joke when Harry said he would become a new emperor tho. Who, if not a dovahkiin, would be more worthy to lead the Empire?
You're an emperor, Harry.
The Empire failed Skyrim, and the people of the land have a right to throw off the reigns of their ineffectual leadership.
Ulfric is an even worse leader than the empire.
The empire protected Skyrim at great cost. The imperial city of Cyrodiil was even briefly taken by the Altmer, yet the empire fought on and survived.
If we look at the leadership in Skyrim who is better. The imperial general who managed to capture his enemy in a few months with a legion of farm boys or the rebel traitor that got so easily ambushed? That’s not even mentioning the corrupt jarls.
The Empire *sacrifices* the people of Skyrim. Much worse.
100%
My only regret was always Jarl Balgruuf of Whiterun.
I did my duty for High King Ulfric, but it never felt right.
Skyrim being independent is like the United States bring independent in a timeline where France has already defeated Britain and forced concessions in the Napoleonic Wars.
You won't be independent, you'll be French.
The Empire wasn't defeated by the Dominion, it more or less ended in a stalemate.
Until that damn emperor betrayed the empire and signed that disgraceful white gold concordat. The ending of war was retaking of capital, the annihilation of the main army of elves in cyrodil, and the destruction of the magic artifact that let them outmaneuver the imperial forces and kill its blades.
Yeah the treaty that was never actually enforced at a best a farce. You guys are literally looking at it on face value. The peace treaty was to ensure the fighting stopped so the empire could regain its strength. That line of thinking is how the civil war started as the Nords were like ‘their taking away ma right to worship Talos’ when it wasn’t even enforced.
The imperial heartlands were absolutely devastated to the levels of ‘Japanese invasion of Naknking’ of course the imperials wanted a peace treaty but the Nords all away up north who didn’t actually have to suffer from the invasions are getting all annoyed about it.
a "stalemate" where
- the Dominion gets everything they demanded at the start of the war
- the Empire has lost the loyalty of a substantial portion of its citizens in the province where its legions have historically always drawn their strength
- the Dominion gets to summarily execute anyone they want and are given safe conduct by the Empire in order to do so
is not a stalemate. it is a resounding defeat.
Okay, 1) LOL love the LARPing. 2) I am absolutely delighted at this... how do I put this... very knowledgeable discussion of Skyrim's politics. Can't wait until I can watch the full video.
I can't count the number of times me and my school friends had the _'Empire Vs. Stormcloaks' debate 🙄
Cheers for covering this officially boys 🙏😂
The Aldmeri Dominion caused the divide and conquer. The Thalmor finance the wars and hold shadow governance of the imperial land and Skyrim. They seek to subvert national identity and replace it with their own distorted rule. Look up the "Protocols of the Elder Scrolls of Aldmeri (Zion).
Yoooooo have Carl run a D&D session for the lotus lads. You’re already halfway there 😆
YES!
The Empire was effectively destroyed after the oblivion crisis, and kinda became puppets for the Aldmeri Dominion. The stormcloaks have a right to hate the empire.
The video we've all really been waiting for
The empire dismisses the storm clocks as “just clinging to their war axes and their Talos worship”
Being executed by the Empire, was all the reason I needed to join the stormcloaks
I took up so much brain space with middle earth when I played skyrim I just made my character an elf and slew a great many orcs
I thought I was having a fever dream. I love this channel
Stormcloaks don't cut people's heads off, so siding with the Empire is like siding with Hamas.
I'm a Stormcloak because: 1. The empire losing a war to the high elves is enough of a reason for people to have contempt for it and 2. gaining independence from a multicultural dictatorship is based.
I really love these sorts of videos. Keep at it boys.
Callum having to ding with the edits so often he gave up making it look good
I would like to see the Lotus eaters debate the mage and Templar war from Dragon age.
Rather see a discussion on just how much of a bell end Solas is.
Or how insane the Qunari are...
There's nothing to debate. Born that way or not, mages are walking nukes and when you let them be you get the Tevinter Imperium. It may be cruel but in a setting with magic being as powerful as it is in DA, it is necessary that mages are strictly controlled and they proved that themselves when they caused the blight by literally trying to break into heaven and usurp god.
I usually stand on the “faith” side on those things, but the treatment of mages, while understandable due to the potential danger they represent, is dehumanizing on a cartoonishly evil level, and it’s not like the templars aren’t a potential danger as well (see red lithium)
Reminder that the least evil group of elves in Elder Scrolls are the cannibals.
Pelinal did one thing wrong. He didn't finish.
This is the greatest Lotus Eaters podcast ever.
Around Elves, watch yourselves.
Used to always go Stormcloak for the passion but after one day finally actually reading notes and journals and other bits of lore switched to neutral or Empire games. Whether he knows it or not Ulfric is a huge Thalmor asset and while it's annoying how we were to be executed; Tullius was right to try and speed run Ulfrics execution, Tullis was in charge of a key province and was to be preparing for round 2 with the Thalmor, instead he's dragged off to Skyrim to deal with the uprising and just wants to be ready for the next war. Neither side is truly wrong in this, it's alot of big picture vs little picture.
The Aldmeri Dominion is the Primary Threat to Man in Tamriel Dividing the Empire would give the Thalmor a potentially strategic advantage.
But how would the Empire be split? Skyrim might go it's own way on every other topic, but with the Aldmeri, Skyrim is 10X more motivated and proactive than the Empire. The Imperials are just outright lying, they won't put their money where their mouth is, because they've been conquered from within.
I think you're overestimating how ready for war the Thalmor really are.
@getthegoons i think you're overestimating the power of one frosty province that just finished fighting a war
@@jackhazardous4008Someone's gonna go "but muh lore dragonborn"
Well if the Thalmor get stomped either way it comes down to you being a patriot or a separatist. If they DON'T, splitting the Empire is a bad move. Hammerfell would have fallen without the Empire softening the Thalmor up.
Looking at a map of tamerial, and recognizing that the empire only has the provinces of cyrodil high rock and skyrim (and that’s only if they win the civil war) you quickly realize how badly they are disadvantages in geography, half of their territory can be easily accessed by aldmeri domanion forces (hell they have control over the a river that gives them a straight shot to the imperial capital)
If we take the dark brotherhood story as canon (as is typically the case from older games they just never confirm if it was the protagonist or someone else doing faction quests) then amid all this the empire is dealing with an assassinated emperor with no heir
Honestly even with skyrim in the empire I don’t see the imperials fighting off the domain. It would just be Cyrodil extracting wealth, men, and material from skyrim dragging them into a meat grinder.
A much better tactic for skyrim would be to make an alliance between Hammerfell, Skyrim and convince high rock to break their allegiance to cyrodil and form an alliance with them, use cyrodil as a buffer zone
Force the dominion to spread across multiple fronts all of which are geographically difficult terrain. Use the northern ocean to transport supplies and troops back and fourth between the 3 nations with a strong naval base at high rock guarding this waterway
I F'n love this.The "thank god you're finally awake" and the "speech increased to 1" made me bust a seam
Best segment this year. Please do more
Now this is AWESOME!!!
Pagmatism does not work in the Elderscrolls . You need the gods at your back . If you allow the talos worship is banned the god of the empire is weakened. The elves win either way. The right choice is that the old empire must die to make way for the new
And if we look at the history of elder scrolls the dragonborn should be the one to found a new empire as a dragonborn chosen of Akatosh like Talos, Reman, and Allessia
@@ethanwall2443 That would be the most based outcome
This. End of discussion. 💯
For Talos!
Absolutely. The Dominion is currently playing for both diplomatic and religious victory, and winning on both.
The Empire should allow Skyrim to secede, gain them as allies rather than spending resources and lives only to retain a weak grasp on the second-to-last province left of a weak dynasty.
Huh, after all this time I didn't even realize Skyrim had a story.
The sad thing about the civil war is, no matter which side wins, or even if no one wins, the real winners are the Thalmor. If the Empire wins, that makes a statement that Talos worship will be smacked down brutally. If the Stormcloaks win, it makes a statement that humanity is divided. And in a long, drawn-out stalemate? The Thalmor are given everything they want.
My Dragonborn could take on the entire Thalmor army without a scratch. If Skulldafn Draugr are giving someone trouble, it's just because their character sucks. So a decent Dragonborn can absolutely side with Skyrim and have them win, which is what I choose to do.
Saying "we need the Empire to protect us from the Thalmor" is like saying "we need the EU to protect us from the WEF"
Spot on.
In a world where the EU went to war with the WEF and fought hard enough to successfully protect nations at its border, mind you.
Skyrim is Ukraine and the Empire is nato. Have fun buddy.
@@thelordofcringe Remember that the Redguards of Hammerfell fought the Thalmor on their own and won. Skyrim won't be so bad off.
@@atlerthedark3639With help from clandestine Imperial forces... just after a massive battle against the Empire left them depleted.
Alone they would have been crushed.
It's personal for me, they were going to cut my head off for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
My first playthrough I sided with the Stormcloaks. I was young and naieve. Now I always side with the Empire.
Still the greatest game ever.
The thing is, the Thalmor are more likely to be defeated by a demi-god riding in on a giant mecha and blasting them away with lasers then they are by a unified army of the other provinces of Tamriel. So yeah, if I had to pick a side, the Stormcloak's religious purity is more important than the Imperial's practicality.
The Skyrim Dilemma is basically the Empire's version of the Soviet conflict in Afghanistan with the Aldmeri playing the part of the United States.